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[rpd] should authors of policy proposals be oblige to contribute in the list?
Mark Elkins
mje at posix.co.za
Sun Jun 23 13:04:17 UTC 2019
Again you are correct. The PDP meeting should really only be used for
formal presentations and to perhaps clarify anything - although even
that could be done in the mailing list. The meeting can also perhaps be
used to provide a summary of discussions on the mailing list. The
decision really should not have to happen in the meeting - it should
almost be a foregone conclusion whether a particular policy is going to
go to "final call" or not.
I wonder if we as a community will ever have the possibility of a policy
going from inception to passing without it ever having to wait for (or
going to) a meeting. That should be possible.
On 2019/06/23 13:30, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm opening a new thread, and is not an easy one and could be very
> contentious, but I think is urgently needed.
>
> I mention it briefly in my previous email, but it was a long one, so I
> want to make sure that we concentrate in this part.
>
> Our PDP is meant for contributing in the mailing list for discussions
> and in the meeting. However, formally, the decision is taken in the
> meeting.
>
> Everybody that comes to the meetings is **able** to participate in the
> mailing list as well, so unless something "new" is discovered about a
> policy proposal, should we consider for the consensus that comments
> against a policy proposal that were not raised previously in the list,
> should not "take over" the gauge of the level of consensus support?
> **There are no excuses** to be in the meeting and raise something if
> you have already been in the mailing list and not raised it before.
>
> Sometimes, an issue raised in the list, may be too contentious to be
> resolved there, and that’s why we need meetings, and not just the
> “formal” policy day, but also chats in the breaks, etc. This the way
> we resolve issues in the IETF, where the definition of rough consensus
> was developed, and this is the one we use in the RIRs. RFC7282 and for
> short, read kind of summary of it below (1) my signature.
>
> Second part of this, and actually a **much stronger point**:
>
> Some folks, which are in the list, which are **actual** authors of
> other policy proposals, didn’t brought their inputs in the list, they
> have actually brought them in the meeting, just for the **insane sake
> of overthrow this proposal** and exclusively for their own interest.
>
> My view is that those authors, as I’m not supporting their own policy
> proposals, believe that I’m against them “personally”, it seems to me
> they don’t understand that the PDP is not about “your interest” but
> the “community interest”.
>
> If those authors of other policy proposals are really looking for the
> **well of the community**, they **MUST** participate in the list **not
> only** to defend their own policy proposals, but also to improve the
> ones from other authors (as I do).
>
> If they provid those inputs in the list in advance to the meeting,
> then we could have made a new version in time for resolving their
> issues and reaching consensus.
>
> If someone supports a policy proposal, **ideally, they should
> explicitly say it in the list**, so the co-chairs have a broader view
> of the real community support.
>
> If someone doesn’t support a policy proposal, **MUST say it in the
> list** so it can be discussed and amended if necessary way ahead of
> the meeting, so we can reach consensus, because the meeting time is
> precious, and proposals are submitted to improve our system and this
> means if we believe something is needed is much better reach consensus
> in 1 year than in 2. Obvious right?
>
> How come, as I learnt in the Dakar meeting (from one of the authors of
> a policy proposal under discussion who told me in person), can authors
> not read the mailing list and respond to, not only their own policy
> proposal inputs, but also contribute to others?
>
> Note that I explicitly don’t want to mention specific names, because,
> again, this is not about individuals, but about the community.
>
> So, should we have a rule, or at least co-chairs consider, that people
> contributing in the meeting, should have already contributed in the
> list, unless it is a new issue **not** discovered before?
>
> Again, this is not a fight among different sets of policy proposals
> authors, but it looks like when some of them, don’t do comments in the
> list, and wait till the meeting for killing consensus.
>
> Opinions?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
> (1) Definition of ‘Consensus’
>
> Achieving ‘consensus’ does not mean that proposals are voted for and
> against, nor that the number of ‘yes's’, ‘no's’ and ‘abstentions’ – or
> even participants – are counted, but that the proposal has been
> discussed not only by its author(s) but also by other members of the
> community, regardless of their number, and that, after a period of
> discussion, all critical technical objections have been resolved.
>
> In general, this might coincide with a majority of members of the
> community in favor of the proposal, and with those who are against the
> proposal basing their objections on technical reasons as opposed to
> ‘subjective’ reasons. In other words, low participation or
> participants who disagree for reasons that are not openly explained
> should not be considered a lack of consensus.
>
> Objections should not be measured by their number, but instead by
> their nature and quality within the context of a given proposal. For
> example, a member of the community whose opinion is against a proposal
> might receive many ‘emails’ (virtual or real) in their support, yet
> the chairs might consider that the opinion has already been addressed
> and technically refuted during the debate; in this case, the chairs
> would ignore those expressions of support against the proposal.
>
> For information purposes, the definition of ‘consensus’ used by the
> RIRs and the IETF is actually that of ‘rough consensus’, which allows
> better clarifying the goal in this context, given that ‘consensus’
> (Latin for agreement) might be interpreted as ‘agreed by all’
> (unanimity). More specifically, RFC7282, explains that “Rough
> consensus is achieved when all issues are addressed, but not
> necessarily accommodated.”
>
> Consequently, in this document ‘consensus’ should be interpreted as
> ‘rough consensus’.
>
> As an ‘abridged’ definition for the remainder of the document, a
> proposal is considered to have reached consensus when it is supported
> by meaningful opinions, after broad discussion, and when there are no
> irrefutable technical objections.
>
> Definition of Last call
>
> The purpose of the ‘last call’ is to provide the community with a
> brief and final opportunity to comment on the proposal, especially to
> those who didn’t do so earlier. Consequently, during this period
> editorial comments may be submitted and, exceptionally, objections if
> any aspect is discovered that was not considered in the discussion
> prior to determining consensus. Any new objections must also be
> substantiated and must therefore not be based on opinions lacking a
> technical justification.
>
>
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Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa
mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496
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