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[rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
jordi.palet at consulintel.es
Tue Jun 18 20:42:57 UTC 2019
Hi Daniel,
Responding in-line.
Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
El 18/6/19 23:25, "DANIEL NANGHAKA" <dndannang at gmail.com> escribió:
Hi Jordi,
I respect the fact that you have sacrificed lots of time and money for the support of Internet Development in Africa.
In case the policy takes the stipulated time you have mentioned to be implemented, I propose we discuss the review of the resources that are in utilisation. I believe in the period of 6-9 months we
If we don’t reach consensus now, the policy will be in place much later than the resources are exhausted, that’s why I believe is the right time to do it. This also is about the same (in practical terms) that what Lee indicated in a previous email: having a proposal that is in place once the resources are exhausted, and I’m happy with that view.
can have a review report of the resources. In this report we can best assess what is in use and what is not. Jordi, for the 2decades you have spent, I would be happy in case you suggest a review of the resources but you are diverting from the reviews. Why?
I’m not opposed to a review of resources, because this is in fact *authorized by the RSA* as I explained several times. What I’m against is with the actual text of the proposal on the table. Please, re-read my email on that and you will understand it. My last email on this topic, was very clear, and even I proposed specific text and way forward.
In interest of Africa community, I believe there are members who have spent similar amount of time and advocate for the growth of the region both economically and digitally. This is not the right time to transfer resources that were assigned for the region and enhancing development.
Clearly, we disagree. We have different points of view, and only time may tell who was right.
In case your best interest is to make Africa run out of IPv4 and utilise IPv6 - you are after destroying Africa and a hypocrite for African development. I believe in the best interest of Africa
Please read again my emails. You’re misinterpreting what I’m saying. If you’re on-site, find me during the meeting and I’m happy to explain in words what I’m saying, in case is not sufficiently clear by email.
development and digitalization is to allow the smooth transition and adoption of IPv6. Secondly, how do you expect to achieve full utilisation without being sure that the resources assigned are being fully utilised?
If *any* member believes that *another* member is not correctly utilizing the resources according to the policies, then what *that* member *must do* is to tell that to the staff. They have all the means to verify the utilization. If *any* member believe that *another member* is committing fraud, and is not warning the staff about that, then that member is the *one* being *hypocrite* to Africa, not me. Believe me that if I know or suspect of *any* member, in *any RIR* that is not following the policies, I’m not a coward and I will have no fear to communicate it to the staff and even more, if I can demonstrate it, I will even make it publicly. I don’t need a *new policy* for that, the RSA already allows it.
I am not sure that the resources out of the pool are being utilised, there may be hoarding of resources.
I respect your business being IPv6 but it would be an awesome thing to develop business strategies without affecting the distribution of regional resources.
On Jun 18, 2019 10:17 PM, <rpd-request at afrinic.net> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals
(JORDI PALET MARTINEZ)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 22:15:48 +0300
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
To: "rpd >> AfriNIC Resource Policy" <rpd at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals
Message-ID: <F0B799F3-E693-45D9-BE5C-57DC8722C207 at consulintel.es>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi Daniel,
This policy is to support the growth of Africa.
If you suggest that I?m against the growth of Africa, you probably don?t know that I pay from my own pocket and lots of personal time, to come to the meetings, do trainings, do presentations, do policy proposals, and support anyone that contact me as much as I can. And I do this, the same for Africa that for the other regions.
Believe me that I don?t have any other interest. Many people from the community know me personally for about 2 decades, and I don?t think anyone has a doubt on that.
Implementing this kind of policy proposal takes (according to what I?ve been said) around 6-9 months. This is around the time that AFRINIC will enter in the next exhaustion phase.
My business is IPv6 training and consultancy. My *best interest* is to let the IPv4 addresses run out in Africa, not allowing transfers, so more people need *urgently* to get IPv6 deployed. This kind of policy is probably the worst I can do to increase my business. However I feel this is the right think I must do.
Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
El 18/6/19 21:49, "DANIEL NANGHAKA" <dndannang at gmail.com> escribi?:
Hello Jordi,
In case the other regions allow bidirectional transfer, Africa region is not yet ready for the transfers.
I suggest you should be supporting the growth of the internet in Africa and not aim for transfer of resources that are required for the digital transformation and growth of Africa.
In case ARIN is giving more resource, what is the review behind this resources. I don't think ARIN would gladly transfer resources to region which has not depleted its resources. Let Africa show that's its resources are depleted then push for the transfer but we resources which are required by other regions. Let's use this resources in the region.
Daniel K. Nanghaka
On Jun 18, 2019 9:12 PM, <rpd-request at afrinic.net> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC needs
this policy now! (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 21:10:45 +0300
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
To: "rpd >> AfriNIC Resource Policy" <rpd at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC
needs this policy now!
Message-ID: <83B33FFF-B1CB-4D1E-9CBF-1E9670BF10CA at consulintel.es>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi Paschal,
All the existing policies (APNIC, ARIN, LACNIC and RIPE) allow bi-direccional transfers without looking at any balance or any restrictions.
There is no restriction in any of those policies to say something like ?we only allow n% of outgoing transfers vs incoming ones?.
As said a number of times, the region that is ?giving? more addressess is ARIN. Please see my presentation tomorrow on this (still working on it right now).
Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
El 18/6/19 20:59, "Paschal Ochang" <pascosoft at gmail.com> escribi?:
Based on your analogy Howard it therefore means that this policy will benefit the region. The major fear is not just the balance of resources flow but more resources going out and less coming in and this proposal clearly shows that this region will benefit from the policy because more resources will flow in the region. Is there any region that will allow only outflow of resources without inflow? I don't think so.
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019, Lee Howard <lee.howard at retevia.net> wrote:
This is interesting.
My logic goes like this:
1. Afrinic has a finite number of IPv4 addresses to allocate/assign.
2. Afrinic will run out of those addresses next year.
3. Once Afrinic runs out, any network needing more IPv4 addresses not be able to get them from Afrinic.
4. Networks needing more addresses will have choices:
4a. Stop growing.
4b. Use (carrier-grade) NAT. Even NAT requires some IPv4 addresses.
4c. Try to find addresses inside Africa that are for sale.
Evaluating those options:
4a is bad for the region.
4b is complicated. It means buying more hardware, updating some systems. Some things don't work well with NAT. If you can deploy IPv6 and use NAT64, 464xlat, MAP-T or MAP-E, you reduce that cost, but it's still more than you spend now.
4c could get very expensive. Demand for IPv4 addresses has been around 25,000 /24s per year (with some much higher peaks) since Afrinic was founded.[1] The Afrinic region has about seven /8s in total.[2] If demand continues, then more than 6M of those 112M addresses would have to be traded every year, somewhere between 1/2% - 1%.
The question then is whether you think there are more underutilized IPv4 addresses in the U.S. or in Africa. Assuming a perfect market:
If Africa is more efficient, and Afrinic's transfer policy is only within the region, then the few unused IPv4 addresses will sell for a higher price than addresses elsewhere.[3]
If Africa is less efficient and Afrinic's transfer policy is only within the region, then unused addresses will be cheaper than elsewhere.
If Africa is more efficient and Afrinic has an inter-regional transfer policy, addresses will be valued more highly in Africa and addresses will come in.
If Africa is less efficient that the rest of the world and Afrinic has an inter-regional transfer policy, buyers in other countries will buy addresses from Africa.
My guess is that addresses in Africa are pretty efficiently utilized, and therefore people in Africa will have a higher need for addresses than people elsewhere, and therefore a) prices will rise, and b) addresses will tend to flow in to Africa rather than out.
Lee
[1] https://afrinic.net/stats/ipv4
[2] https://www.nro.net/wp-content/uploads/NRO-Statistics-2019-Q1.pdf
[3] https://www.retevia.net/address-pricing-2019-and-beyond/ easily $30 per address next year, maybe much higher
On 6/18/19 8:18 AM, Pascal ANDRIANISA wrote:
Thank you Jordi
if in the opposite case the remaining resources at AFRINIC will be transferred to other RIRs. It is true that I am not against but I do not agree that the current resources insufficient according to the information I received since AFRINIC-29 will be transferred to other RIR.
If you can guarantee this balance of resources transfer I think it will be logical for AFRINIC. Unlike so if AFRINIC has a lot of resources it will be good for the community.
Regards,
Pascal Heriliva ANDRIANISA
Webmaster i RENALA
R esearch and E ducation N etwork for A cademic and L earning A ctivities - [ http://www.irenala.edu.mg/ | http://www.irenala.edu.mg/ ]
Porte 201 - Minist?re de l'Enseignement Sup?rieur et de la Recherche Scientifique - Fiadanana
GSM :+261 (0) 32 46 680 29 | +261 (0) 34 30 680 29
----- Mail original -----
De: "rpd" <rpd at afrinic.net>
?: "rpd" <rpd at afrinic.net>
Envoy?: Mardi 18 Juin 2019 14:55:02
Objet: Re: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC needs this policy now!
Hi Pascal,
Precisely what you said is the argument in favor of this policy proposal, not against.
AFRINIC don't have enough resources. The only way to receive resources is a policy that allows that other regions that are "giving up" resources, can get them.
This is the case for LACNIC (the same policy proposal reached consensus in the last meeting and yesterday the consensus decision was handed out to the board for the final ratification), and for AFRINIC.
AFRINIC must have an equivalent policy proposal to the ones that exist in the other regions, otherwise, you will not get sufficient resources for the continued implementation of IPv4 in the region and this will also be a barrier for the IPv6 deployment.
Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
?
?El 18/6/19 10:48, "Pascal ANDRIANISA" <pascal at irenala.edu.mg> escribi?:
??? Hi Jordi,
????I read the policy proposal for IPV4 Inter-RIR Transfert.??
????The article => https://www.afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2019-v4-002-d1#proposal
????? I think this is not the benefit of AFRINIC as resources are currently insufficient for AFRINIC.
??? Otherwise it is necessary to balance the transfers between RIR because at least the number of resources is limited to sending to other RIRs.
???
????I do not support this policy for this reason, The AFRINIC's resources are not enough for AFRICA, why transfer them elsewhere ....
????
????Pascal Heriliva ANDRIANISA
????Webmaster i RENALA
????R esearch and E ducation N etwork for A cademic and L earning A ctivities - [ http://www.irenala.edu.mg/ | http://www.irenala.edu.mg/ ]
????Porte 201 - Minist?re de l'Enseignement Sup?rieur et de la Recherche Scientifique - Fiadanana
????GSM :+261 (0) 32 46 680 29 | +261 (0) 34 30 680 29
???
????----- Mail original -----
??? De: "rpd" <rpd at afrinic.net>
??? ?: "rpd" <rpd at afrinic.net>
??? Envoy?: Samedi 15 Juin 2019 13:23:23
??? Objet: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC needs this policy now!
???
????Hi all,
???
????I wonder if anyone has inputs on the policy proposals for IPv4 Inter-RIR transfers.
???
????https://www.afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2019-v4-001-d1
???
????and
???
????https://www.afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2019-v4-002-d1
???
????I will be presenting both of them together on Wednesday 19th. If you're not in Kampala, make sure to participate remotely (https://www.internetsummit.africa/en/participate-remotely), so we can resolve any doubts on the spot.
???
????This is a key issue for AFRINIC, which now is the *only* RIR not allowing those transfers.
???
????AFRINIC is soon (probably around end of this year) entering in exhaustion phase 2, so it will become more and more difficult to obtain IPv4. If transfers from other regions aren't allowed, this will be an added difficulty for the Internet growth in the region, and increase the difficulties for the continued IPv6 deployment.
???
????The region needs this policy *now*, because the implementation requires several months as there is a need to coordinate with the systems of the other RIRs, in order to ensure a transparent transfers process.
???
????So, what is your opinion?
????
????Regards,
??? Jordi
??? @jordipalet
????
?????
????
????
????
????**********************************************
??? IPv4 is over
??? Are you ready for the new Internet ?
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