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[rpd] Competitions Tribunal Petition
Frank Habicht
geier at geier.ne.tz
Tue Jan 2 12:57:33 UTC 2018
Dear PDWG Chairs,
Is this still the policy discussion working group?
I'm not sure any more who is welcome here and who can say what?
Kangamutima zabika Christophe asked for names of companies providing
internet services, maybe didn't like the list so brings up new issues.
These have in my opinion noting to do with AfriNIC policy.
Since I don't understand enough French, I have to wonder whether Google
translate is conveying the message correctly here.
Thanks,
Frank Habicht
On 1/2/2018 2:22 PM, Kangamutima zabika Christophe wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> Primo, tu n'a répondu qu'une de mes questions, secundo, ce que tu
> appelles entreprises africaines, est-ce des sociétés détenus par des
> africains d'origine? En plus, tous ces pseudo anges du monde de la
> téléphonie implantée en Afrique sont malheureusement les leaders de
> tous les abus, toutes les transgressions de réglementations. Le
> problème est de savoir s'ils servent réellement aux intérêts du
> continent? L'une des sociétés parmi celles que tu as cité a même
> financé 2 guerres en Afrique. Je comprends que tu sème à tout vent où
> tu peux te procurer du lucre, un bon salaire tout en foutant de ce que
> sont réellement ces mastodontes dont tu as cité. Malheureusement ce
> sont des sangsues qui s'emploient à siphonner le marché africain.
>
> Si tu pouvait autant les défendre en matière de politique salariale,
> de civisme fiscal ou de bonne gouvernance que tu les fais pour
> l'attribution des ressources numériques ce serait l'idéal. Quel est
> leur part sur le développement réel de l'Afrique? Lorsqu'ils ne sont
> pas commanditaires d'actions malveillantes provenant de nos
> dirigeants, ils y participent comme complice ou co-auteur. Alors
> arrête de nous faire cette morale. Moi je comprends pourquoi cette
> réaction mais je ne peux le dire sur ce forum de peur de subir encore
> la censure du modérateur comme c'était le cas la semaine dernière.
>
> Si nous voulons développer, nous les vrais africains nous devons
> plutôt lutter contre le joug des entreprises que tu as cité. Et je
> pense que pour tous mes frères soutenant vos propos, je ne pourrais
> que me rappeller de ces paroles de SAMORA MACHEL. "Le jour où vous
> entendrez les blancs parler de moi en bien, ce jour-là, ne partagez
> plus vos secrets avec moi, car cela voudrait dire que je vous aurais
> déjà trahis".
>
>
> Ce n'était qu'une mise en bouche pour annoncer les couleurs et les
> défis de cette nouvelle année.
>
> 30.12.2017, 21:58, "Andrew Alston" <andrew.alston at liquidtelecom.com>:
>> Oh how little you seem to know of the market - which are these big
>> international non African ISPs you refer to?
>>
>> The big players on this continent are majority African companies -
>> some of them may have gone global - and may even have been acquired
>> by international interests (NTT’s acquisition of Dimension Data for
>> example), but at the same time - African companies have acquired
>> international companies operations in Africa (MTN bought out Verizon
>> South Africa - and MTN is an African company)
>>
>> It does not change the fact that IS and Dimension Data were founded
>> and built in Africa and are African companies
>>
>> Liquid is an African company - do your home work if you dispute that.
>>
>> MTN - one of the largest mobile providers on the planet - is an
>> African company
>>
>> Wananchi Group - an African company
>>
>> In Kenya - 28 billion dollars was transacted through MPESA in 2015 -
>> MPESA which is owned by Safaricom - which is an African Company.
>>
>> Econet - an African company
>>
>> Naspers - who also owned MWEB before it was acquired - is an African
>> company
>>
>> Kwesi - an African company
>>
>> The list is very long - do your homework a bit - what this policy
>> does though is put the African companies on the back foot - it
>> ensures that those that have the ability to buy space on the
>> secondary market will have resources they can deploy in Africa to
>> take out markets - while African companies that cannot get space due
>> to lack of transfer policy and cannot get space because it is locked
>> up in some bizarre attempt to extend the life of a finite resource
>> into infinity dot unable to compete in their own market because we
>> deny our own success stories the resources they need to grow further
>>
>> Effectively - what we are doing is penalizing African success - and
>> encouraging non African companies to come and take our markets. Not
>> hugely smart in my view
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Kangamutima zabika Christophe <funga.roho at yandex.com
>> <mailto:funga.roho at yandex.com>>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 30, 2017 1:29:18 PM
>> *To:* Andrew Alston; rpd
>> *Subject:* Re: [rpd] Competitions Tribunal Petition
>>
>> Andrew Alston de LiquidTelecom
>>
>> En tant qu'africain, je pense qu'il faudrait d'abord défendre les
>> intérêts des africains (aujourd'hui et dans l'avenir). Les ISP dont
>> tu parles contribuent pour combien au PIB des pays africains, quel ce
>> pays africain qui s'est développé par l'entremise des ISP?
>> La plupart des cas ce ne sont que des capitalistes qui ne voient que
>> leurs intérêts au détriment même des africains considéré comme
>> consommateurs dupes. Pourquoi vous ne défendez pas les Africains qui
>> sont licensiés abusivement par les IPS, pourquoi vous ne condamnez
>> pas les ISP qui fraude sur le fisc en Afrique?
>> qui piétinent la plupart des régulations mis en place en Afrique,
>> pourquoi vous ne moralisez les ISP qui se sont illustrés dans la
>> corruption des dirigeants africains?
>> Vous ne vous levez que lorsqu'on veut atténuer leurs appetits
>> démesurés de s'accaparer des ressources numéréiques de l'afrique.
>> Nous les vrais africains, panafricanistes nous gardons le droit de
>> gérer ces ressources comme bon nous semble. Cette propositon de
>> SL-BIS est plus que salutaire pour les internautes résidant en
>> afrique aujourd'hui et de demain.
>>
>> Si la Justice Mauritienne est vraiment objective elle devrait se
>> déporter et se déclarer incompétente de traiter d'un sujet qui
>> concerne des ressources numériques destinés à des utilisateurs
>> supranationaux.
>>
>> Andrew Alston de LiquidTelecom
>>
>> As an African, I think we should first defend the interests of
>> Africans (now and in the future). The ISPs you are talking about
>> contribute for how much to the GDP of the African countries, which
>> African country that has developed through the ISPs?
>> Most of the cases are only capitalists who only see their interests
>> to the detriment even of Africans considered duped consumers. Why do
>> not you defend Africans who are falsely licensed by the IPS, why do
>> not you condemn the ISPs that fraud on the tax in Africa?
>> which tramples most of the regulations put in place in Africa, why do
>> not you moralize the ISPs who have distinguished themselves in the
>> corruption of African leaders?
>> You only get up when you want to mitigate their disproportionate
>> appetites for grabbing Africa's digital resources. We, the true
>> African, pan-Africanists, have the right to manage these resources as
>> we see fit. This proposal from SL-BIS is more than beneficial for
>> Internet users residing in Africa today and tomorrow.
>>
>> If the Mauritian Justice is really objective it should move away and
>> declare itself incompetent to deal with a subject that concerns
>> digital resources intended for supranational users.
>>
>> 29.12.2017, 19:07, "Andrew Alston" <andrew.alston at liquidtelecom.com
>> <mailto:andrew.alston at liquidtelecom.com>>:
>>>
>>> There was warning given – that should this policy proceed – it would
>>> be a threat to business interests and expansion of the internet on
>>> the continent. I and others, are no longer prepared to wait to see
>>> if that threat materializes, it is best to see that threat
>>> eliminated BEFORE it becomes reality, hence the timing of this action.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Irrespective of how one THINKS AFRINIC should be constituted – that
>>> is immaterial – it is what it is today – and changing it is a time
>>> consuming process that would require super majority votes and other
>>> things – so – this action is very applicable to the situation we
>>> find ourselves in **TODAY**
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I asked the board months ago to investigate the possibility of being
>>> in violation of this act and to advise this community as to what
>>> steps could be taken to rectify it if they were in violation –
>>> despite promises – no word back was ever received – so now – we will
>>> test it through the tribunal and let them decide.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have said repeatedly on this list – a threat to corporate ISP
>>> interests on this continent by this organisation and by policy
>>> through the PDP will eventually result in severe problems – it is
>>> absolutely unconscionable that this community has a.) refused to
>>> pass an inbound transfer policy to allow entities to buy space in
>>> from outside when they need it b.) refused to pass a bi-directional
>>> transfer policy to achieve the same c.) decided to declare consensus
>>> on a policy for which there was no consensus which prevents
>>> organisations that have spent significant sums of money from getting
>>> any IP space whatsoever on the continent because of the lack of (a)
>>> and (b).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That my friend, was always going to be met with swift and resounding
>>> challenge – and I have said repeatedly – perhaps the time has come
>>> to test these things beyond the waters of the lay people on this
>>> list – that time has come
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Kangamutima zabika Christophe <funga.roho at yandex.com
>>> <mailto:funga.roho at yandex.com>>
>>> *Date: *Friday, 29 December 2017 at 11:59
>>> *To: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com
>>> <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>, rpd <rpd at afrinic.net
>>> <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [rpd] Competitions Tribunal Petition
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Je comprends parfaitement ton raisonnement, cela d'abord dû à la
>>> forme juridique adoptée par AFRINIC, elle devait être une
>>> organisation supranationale avec un siège en Ile Maurice mais
>>> actuellement elle est une organisation à but non lucratif
>>> enregistrée en Ile Maurice.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mon problème ce serait d'abord l'applicabilité d'une telle décision
>>> et le caractère prématuré de cette action parceque ce n'est encore
>>> qu'un projet de politique. AFRINIC gère des ressources allouables à
>>> des réquérants résidant dans un ensemble des pays. Dans tel cas,
>>> nous devrions avoir un texte unique régissant cette matière et
>>> ratifié par tous les Etats faisant partie de la couverture
>>> géographique d'AFRINIC (ça pourrait être un traité international,
>>> une charte comme celle des Nations Unies) mais dans le cas d'Afrinic
>>> il y a quand même une bouillabaisse juridique. Parceque tous les
>>> pays n'ont peut être pas le même entendement d'une notion comme la
>>> position dominante abusive en matière de gestion des ressources
>>> numériques. Et le jugement que cette cour rendra, se fera sur base
>>> de la procédure d'élaboration des politiques d'Afrinic ou sur base
>>> d'un texte analogue en vigueur en Ile Maurice?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> KANGAMUTIMA ZABIKA
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>> I understand your reasoning perfectly, firstly due to the legal form
>>> adopted by AFRINIC, it must be a supranational organization with a
>>> seat in Mauritius but currently it is a non-profit organization
>>> registered in Mauritius.
>>> My problem would be first the applicability of such a decision and
>>> the premature nature of this action because it is still only a draft
>>> policy. AFRINIC manages resources that can be allocated to
>>> applicants residing in a set of countries. In such a case, we should
>>> have a single text governing this matter and ratified by all the
>>> States forming part of AFRINIC's geographical coverage (it could be
>>> an international treaty, a charter like the one of the United
>>> Nations) but in the case of Afrinic there is still a legal
>>> bouillabaisse. Because all countries may not have the same
>>> understanding of a notion like the abusive dominant position in the
>>> management of digital resources. And the judgment that this court
>>> will make, will be made on the basis of the procedure of elaboration
>>> of the policies of Afrinic or on the basis of a similar text in
>>> force in Mauritius?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 29.12.2017, 18:44, "Andrew Alston" <andrew.alston at liquidtelecom.com
>>> <mailto:andrew.alston at liquidtelecom.com>>:
>>>
>>> Just to clarify,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You are incorrect in your assessment. You are correct that
>>> Mauritian law only effects those domiciled in Mauritius EXCEPT:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. AFRINIC is domiciled in Mauritius – and subject to Mauritian
>>> law in all actions.
>>> 2. The Mauritian competitions act states explicitly that it
>>> reserves the right to sanction companies who are in
>>> violation of anti-trust outside of its borders (I would
>>> presume this would mean that said companies may find
>>> themselves barred from doing business in Mauritius – but
>>> it’s a little unclear)
>>> 3. If AFRINIC’s actions as a Mauritian domiciled company run
>>> afoul of Mauritian law – it is that law that they are
>>> subject to – irrespective of where those actions are taken.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes – theoretically – AFRINIC could move to another country –
>>> however – that would probably not be looked at terribly
>>> favourably by the Mauritian entities – companies that
>>> deliberately try to evade the law end up with directors in lots
>>> of hot water. Furthermore – the MoU that AFRINIC signed to
>>> create itself, if I remember correctly, explicitly states that
>>> it will be domiciled in Mauritius and lists a ton of reasons why
>>> – changing that – would not be simple.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Let us test this now – if myself and the other petitions are
>>> wrong – no harm no foul – and no one has anything to be scared
>>> of – however – the time for that test is nigh – let us see
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Kangamutima zabika Christophe <funga.roho at yandex.com
>>> <mailto:funga.roho at yandex.com>>
>>> *Date: *Friday, 29 December 2017 at 11:16
>>> *To: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com
>>> <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>, rpd <rpd at afrinic.net
>>> <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [rpd] Competitions Tribunal Petition
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Alors là on se retrouve dans une berezina. Ceux qui se sont
>>> investis à imposer leur vision, faute d'avoir réussi, s'adresse
>>> maintenant à une juridiction mauricienne. Une fois encore, se
>>> pose la question de la qualité de cette juridiction de statuer
>>> sur une cause concernant l'ensemble des pays africains et une
>>> partie de l'océan indien. Si cette cour à une compétence
>>> nationale, le verdict qu'elle rendra concernera t elle seulement
>>> les ressources numériques qui seront allouées dans sa zone
>>> d'influence c'est-à-dire l'Ile Maurice (au cas où elle ordonnait
>>> l'abrogation de cette proposition de politique)? En plus,
>>> peut-on ester en justice contre un projet de loi ou une
>>> proposition de règlement non encore ratifiée ou promulguée? Tout
>>> ceci dénote une procédure un peu cavalière, corollaire d'un
>>> acharnement non justifié contre la décision prise par le groupe
>>> de travail dirigé par les 2 co-présidents. Concernant les lois
>>> de mon pays, aucune juridiction d'Ile Maurice n'a ni la
>>> compétence matérielle encore moins la compétence territoriale de
>>> juger une cause portant sur les modalités d'attributions des
>>> ressources numériques destinés entr'autres à des requérants
>>> résidents en République Démocratique du Congo (surtout que nous
>>> sommes affiliés à l'OHADA pour le droit des affaires).
>>> Concernant, toute ressource pouvant être allouée à une entité ou
>>> personne vivant en RDC, toute décision prise par cette
>>> juridiction serait de nul effet.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> KANGAMUTIMA ZABIKA
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 29.12.2017, 17:56, "Andrew Alston"
>>> <andrew.alston at liquidtelecom.com
>>> <mailto:andrew.alston at liquidtelecom.com>>:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Everything stated here is done in my personal capacity and
>>> is not necessarily representative of the views of any
>>> organization to which I am affiliated.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is a sad day when it comes to this – but due to the
>>> significant business risks imposed by the potential
>>> ratification of the soft-landing policy, and the boards lack
>>> of response to repeated queries as to AFRINIC’s violation of
>>> Mauritian law – the time has come to now test these
>>> potential violations and to see if there is any recourse.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Since this document contains direct reference to issues of
>>> policy that would normally fall under the RPD – I am sending
>>> this to the list. Those who wish to join the petition to
>>> the competitions tribunal can print this – sign it – and
>>> scan it back to me. This document will be submitted to the
>>> competitions tribunal within the next 14 days – to give
>>> people a chance to digest its contents and decide for
>>> themselves if they believe they wish to be party to this action.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Note: As per the rules of the competitions tribunal – any
>>> signatory on these documents will be confidential and the
>>> names of the complainants will not be disclosed to AFRINIC –
>>> so there is no risk of victimization here. Any signed
>>> copies received by myself shall be held in strictest
>>> confidence other than for the purposes of submission to the
>>> commission.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please also note – the submission of this petition shall in
>>> no way prejudice the right to potential litigation against
>>> AFRINIC should companies and individuals feel that such is
>>> warranted.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yours Sincerely
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew Alston
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ,
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RPD mailing list
>>> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> KANGAMUTIMA ZABIKA
>>>
>>> Contrôleur des douanes
>>>
>>> Direction des Systèmes et Technologies de l'Information
>>>
>>> Direction Générale des Douanes et
>>>
>>> Accises
>>>
>>> DRC
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> KANGAMUTIMA ZABIKA
>>>
>>> Contrôleur des douanes
>>>
>>> Direction des Systèmes et Technologies de l'Information
>>>
>>> Direction Générale des Douanes et
>>>
>>> Accises
>>>
>>> DRC
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> KANGAMUTIMA ZABIKA
>> Contrôleur des douanes
>> Direction des Systèmes et Technologies de l'Information
>> Direction Générale des Douanes et
>> Accises
>> DRC
>>
>
>
> --
> KANGAMUTIMA ZABIKA
> Contrôleur des douanes
> Direction des Systèmes et Technologies de l'Information
> Direction Générale des Douanes et
> Accises
> DRC
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RPD mailing list
> RPD at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
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