[AFRINIC-rpd] Re: rpd Digest, Vol 81, Issue 18

Sat Jun 22 09:04:47 UTC 2013

Hi Jackson,

Although I agree that no academic institution deserve any special treatment please take the following into consideration.
South African universities have already got IP space and infrastructure. Under the old policy you would need to be able to
provide justification to be allocated IP space. The problem with this is that smaller universities on the African continent have been left 
behind because they cannot justify their request for IP space. This policy is actually to the benefit of poorer academic institutions
wishing to expand their infrastructure and also to have a proper internet presence. Even if a poorer university is lacking
in terms of infrastructure - they will at least have IP space available to utilize. I regret that you feel that South African students are rich.
Just to give you an example - many student don't even have enough food to eat and our university has a community project called 
"No student Hungry" where people can donate money for food for students. I include a link for your perusal.

http://www.ufs.ac.za/content.aspx?uid=98

Would you rather have your IP resources dished out to other indirect entities that have no direct benefit for African development, and whose only
aim is to make money from the African continent? Please do not let culture or race get in the way of making a decision regarding IP resources as
it has no place in this community. I believe that everyone involved here honestly want to improve the lives of the African people.

As for your comment regarding Africa haters I can tell you that you are sorrily mistaken. Andrew Alston is actively involved in the development
of African networks and has had a vast impact on providing better, faster and cheaper internet connectivity in Africa. He is most definitely
not only involved in South Africa, but he is and has been involved in connectivity in Tanzania, Kenya, Rwanda, Uganda and Zambia just to name 
a few from the top of my head. He has spent huge amounts of money from his own pocket to travel throughout Africa and improve the internet for Africans. 
I feel that an apology might be in order.

Louis

>>> <rpd-request at afrinic.net> 2013/06/22 10:34 AM >>>
Send rpd mailing list submissions to
rpd at afrinic.net

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/rpd
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
rpd-request at afrinic.net

You can reach the person managing the list at
rpd-owner at afrinic.net

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of rpd digest..."

Today's Topics:

   1. Re: PDP discussions (Sunday Folayan)
   2. Re: PDP discussions (Sunday Folayan)
   3. Re: PDP discussions (Jackson Muthili)
   4. Re: PDP discussions (McTim)
   5. Re: PDP discussions (Owen DeLong)
   6. Re: PDP discussions (Andrew Alston)
   7. Re: PDP discussions (Sunday Folayan)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 22:48:02 +0100
From: Sunday Folayan <sfolayan at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [AFRINIC-rpd] PDP discussions
To: Viv Padayatchy <viv.padayatchy at cybernaptics.mu>
Cc: 'Alan Barrett' <apb at cequrux.com>, 'rpd' <rpd at afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <51C4CA12.4050604 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 21/06/2013 17:10, Viv Padayatchy wrote:
> Then we should call a cat a cat.
>
> In this case, I would like this policy to be reformulated in order to make
> this clear to the community.

Viv, anyone in the community can read the RPD archives. I believe the 
policy evolved to the current form, so nothing is hidden.

Sunday.

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 00:00:21 +0100
From: Sunday Folayan <sfolayan at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [AFRINIC-rpd] PDP discussions
To: Jackson Muthili <jacksonmuthi at gmail.com>
Cc: rpd <rpd at afrinic.net>, Alan Barrett <apb at cequrux.com>
Message-ID: <51C4DB05.2030607 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 21/06/2013 20:31, Jackson Muthili wrote:
> I join Maye Dioup to strongly ++ oppose this proposal.
>
> No special treatment deserve by universities. And i say it before and
> i say it again. Author selfishly consider large  South African
> university with rich students. South africa not representive of rest
> of africa sorry.

Jackson, There are two Authors please, and one is not South African. 
When I last looked at the map, South Africa is still part of Africa.

Universities remain moulders of character and knowledge. When you put 
back into your alma-mata by way of endowment, is that preferential 
treatment? Just curious. As I argued during the presentation of the 
policy, they remain the best entity that symbolizes the Past, the 
present and the future all rolled into one. A student today is a 
business or world leader in the next 5 years. The gown feeds the town!!

This policy actually gives those smaller universities a better chance at 
getting the needed resources as the end game plays out. For the bigger 
universities, we can look at a more equitable fee structure, as a means 
of levelling the playing field.

It is still a reasonable option for burning V4 space while caring for 
the future.

Sunday.

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 05:24:25 +0200
From: Jackson Muthili <jacksonmuthi at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [AFRINIC-rpd] PDP discussions
To: Sunday Folayan <sfolayan at gmail.com>
Cc: rpd <rpd at afrinic.net>, Alan Barrett <apb at cequrux.com>
Message-ID:
<CA+DdLrRFzAvUPMPbAfS7aOc478FhN=9K3pjNGsghMq_Kr7eisw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 1:00 AM, Sunday Folayan <sfolayan at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 21/06/2013 20:31, Jackson Muthili wrote:
>>
>> I join Maye Dioup to strongly ++ oppose this proposal.
>>
>> No special treatment deserve by universities. And i say it before and
>> i say it again. Author selfishly consider large  South African
>> university with rich students. South africa not representive of rest
>> of africa sorry.
>
>
> Jackson, There are two Authors please, and one is not South African. When I
> last looked at the map, South Africa is still part of Africa.
>
> Universities remain moulders of character and knowledge. When you put back
> into your alma-mata by way of endowment, is that preferential treatment?
> Just curious. As I argued during the presentation of the policy, they remain
> the best entity that symbolizes the Past, the present and the future all
> rolled into one. A student today is a business or world leader in the next 5
> years. The gown feeds the town!!
>
> This policy actually gives those smaller universities a better chance at
> getting the needed resources as the end game plays out. For the bigger
> universities, we can look at a more equitable fee structure, as a means of
> levelling the playing field.
>
> It is still a reasonable option for burning V4 space while caring for the
> future.
>
> Sunday.
>

You guy keep saying burning v4 space. why you want to burn Africa's v4
space? What Africa has done to you? if you think burning v4 space take
us quickly to v6 space why there is lucrative transfer market? I tell
you when v4 is burned out you will see it was no good thing. Africa
environment is unique from other. we take time to understand and
deploy. While we do we need our v4 longer.

Burning v4 space create immediate huge problem. New ISP will find it
expensive to buy IPV4 from trasnfer maket and broker and reality of
course IPV6 not a solution. WE STILL NEED IPV4 short and MEDIUM TERM
so that to also use IPv6! Cost of doing ISP business goes high. Cost
is transfer to client and cost of internet connection goes high again.

Let us take a slow steady transition not Africa haters Sunday and
Andrew who want to ditch their people into hole and burn continents
IPV4.

Jack

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 23:43:38 -0400
From: McTim <dogwallah at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [AFRINIC-rpd] PDP discussions
To: Jackson Muthili <jacksonmuthi at gmail.com>
Cc: Alan Barrett <apb at cequrux.com>, rpd <rpd at afrinic.net>
Message-ID:
<CACAaNxiRk3aUCge-btBa_jatLZvd6SaM5keqmymZ8wwZ5uCv2A at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Jackson,

On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 11:24 PM, Jackson Muthili
<jacksonmuthi at gmail.com> wrote:

>>
>
> You guy keep saying burning v4 space. why you want to burn Africa's v4
> space?

some would like to hasten the transition to IPv6, in fact, I think
most if not all would like this.

What Africa has done to you? if you think burning v4 space take
> us quickly to v6 space why there is lucrative transfer market? I tell
> you when v4 is burned out you will see it was no good thing. Africa
> environment is unique from other. we take time to understand and
> deploy. While we do we need our v4 longer.

This is why the community has enacted a soft-landing policy.

>
> Burning v4 space create immediate huge problem. New ISP will find it
> expensive to buy IPV4 from trasnfer maket and broker and reality of
> course IPV6 not a solution. WE STILL NEED IPV4 short and MEDIUM TERM
> so that to also use IPv6! Cost of doing ISP business goes high. Cost
> is transfer to client and cost of internet connection goes high again.
>
> Let us take a slow steady transition not Africa haters Sunday and
> Andrew who want to ditch their people into hole and burn continents
> IPV4.

Please do not attack people personally.  You can debate their ideas without
ad hominem attacks.

-- 
Cheers,

McTim
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A
route indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 06:56:26 +0200
From: Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>
Subject: Re: [AFRINIC-rpd] PDP discussions
To: Jackson Muthili <jacksonmuthi at gmail.com>
Cc: Alan Barrett <apb at cequrux.com>, rpd <rpd at afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <23D25727-14C4-4325-A7A9-266FCF84BDA2 at delong.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

I'm not defending the policy. Frankly, I don't think it was the right solution to the problem that was intended to be addressed. However, having said that...

I don't believe that the point of this policy was to burn IPv4 space. I believe the point was to make it available to universities in a controlled manner that facilitates greater ICT development around the region.

I don't believe that the authors had nefarious intent, nor do I believe that the policy will be particularly harmful or consume the free pool rapidly.

> You guy keep saying burning v4 space. why you want to burn Africa's v4
> space? What Africa has done to you? if you think burning v4 space take
> us quickly to v6 space why there is lucrative transfer market? I tell
> you when v4 is burned out you will see it was no good thing. Africa
> environment is unique from other. we take time to understand and
> deploy. While we do we need our v4 longer.

In reality, having a large free pool is proving harmful. It has created the false perception among many that IPv4 still has a future. During the conference, I heard many people say that the AfriNIC free pool meant that Africa could delay IPv6 deployment until 2020. Nothing could be further from the truth. Waiting until 2020 to deploy IPv6 would turn Africa into a disconnected ghetto on the sidelines of the internet. Early IPv6 deployment (along side a better IPv4 rollout) provides Africa with the opportunity to at least keep pace with, if not leap frog the rest of the world, yet the large AfriNIC free pool seems to be a contributing factor to tremendous IPv4 complacency in the region.

> Burning v4 space create immediate huge problem. New ISP will find it
> expensive to buy IPV4 from trasnfer maket and broker and reality of
> course IPV6 not a solution. WE STILL NEED IPV4 short and MEDIUM TERM
> so that to also use IPv6! Cost of doing ISP business goes high. Cost
> is transfer to client and cost of internet connection goes high again.

IPv6 isn't a solution today, but even with this policy, it will be a solution by the time AfriNIC runs out of IPv4 space. We are a very small number of content sites away from IPv6 being usable for 90+% of web requests. It could already be used for upwards of 75% today. Some universities that have already deployed IPv6 are seeming more than 60% of their traffic flow over IPv6 automatically.

While IPv6 may not be a complete solution today, it is a vital part of preparing a network for tomorrow.

> Let us take a slow steady transition not Africa haters Sunday and
> Andrew who want to ditch their people into hole and burn continents
> IPV4.

I think this comment is utterly and completely uncalled for. While I accept that it is perfectly valid for you to disagree with their position, I do not think you can legitimately characterize them as haters of the region. Such accusations do not further the discussion and only serve to inflame and divide. IMHO, such ad hominem attacks have no place on RPD, even in cases where they may be accurate (which I don't believe is the case here).

Owen

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 08:33:19 +0200
From: Andrew Alston <alston.networks at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [AFRINIC-rpd] PDP discussions
To: Viv Padayatchy <viv.padayatchy at cybernaptics.mu>,"'Sunday
Folayan'" <sfolayan at gmail.com>
Cc: 'rpd' <rpd at afrinic.net>, 'Alan Barrett' <apb at cequrux.com>
Message-ID: <CDEB0E57.6D81%alston.networks at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII"

Hi All,

While I do not have the email I am responding to on his notebook due to
lack of mail sync and I am typing this as I fly back to South Africa, I
have the mail from Jackson on my phone, and I need to respond to a number
of issues.

Let us first look at the remarks about advantaging rich South and East
African universities.  This argument is fallacious at best, at worst it
shows that the individual commenting had not bothered to read the policy
at all or was deliberately attempting to mislead this community.  The
policy removes the need for certain documentation and justification that
large, rich universities would have no issue providing, which could
however be far more problematic for smaller, less wealthy institutions to
provide.  Hence, it actually advantages those universities who are still
building their infrastructure rather than sitting with already well
established networks.

Secondly, I wish to address the question of IPv4 burn rate and the
objections on this list.  The fact that this policy would result in faster
usage of the available pool was made very plain at the microphone by both
Sunday and myself when presenting this policy.  The community heard this,
and accepted the policy.  I believe this is probably because yes, it
increases the usage of the available pool, but it keeps the space where it
belongs, in Africa, for the African people.  Without increasing the burn
rate, rest assured the space would disappear off our continent fairly
quickly.

I point to the fact that currently, to my knowledge, there is *NOTHING* in
current policy aside from the soft landing policy that stops organisations
using space assigned by AfriNIC in places outside of the African region.
This policy will at least lock the space to Africa.

My second last point is, to my knowledge, this policy passed with a
greater on the floor consensus of any policy in African PDP history
(personal observation and echoed by others), the community overwhelmingly
supported this by a massive majority.  While I respect the democratic
right of any member to disagree with the policy, I do ask that the
decision that was taken by the community, by show of hands, and by massive
majority be respected as well.

Lastly.  Jackson, you had the audacity to call Sunday and myself "Africa
haters" and claim we "want to drop you all in a hole", while at the same
time echoing some pretty anti-southern/eastern african sentiments.  To you
I have this to say.  The attitudes you choose to display are the very
things that stop this continent advancing, it is these sentiments which
destroy the very unity of this continent that could lead it to being so
much more than it currently is.  It is these attitudes that allow the
colonial powers to exercise the power they do, because we as an African
people are not united.  I therefore put to you that you and those like you
are the ones destroying this continent through your small minded, shallow
and racial attitudes.  Grow up, it has no place in this community.

Andrew

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 09:33:03 +0100
From: Sunday Folayan <sfolayan at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [AFRINIC-rpd] PDP discussions
To: Jackson Muthili <jacksonmuthi at gmail.com>
Cc: rpd <rpd at afrinic.net>, Alan Barrett <apb at cequrux.com>
Message-ID: <51C5613F.8060804 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 22/06/2013 04:24, Jackson Muthili wrote:
> Let us take a slow steady transition not Africa haters Sunday and 
> Andrew who want to ditch their people into hole and burn continents 
> IPV4. Jack 

Jackson,

Do you really understand how to debate?

I vividly remember as a kid, my mother holding me steady for one of my 
immunization shots. I thought she and the Nurse are incarnates of the 
great horned devil at that time. Illiteracy, I will say. I have since 
got to know that immunization was good for me, not because they hate 
me.  Jackson ... Grow up!

Sunday.

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
rpd mailing list
rpd at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/rpd

End of rpd Digest, Vol 81, Issue 18
***********************************

_____________________________________________________________________

University of the Free State: This message and its contents are subject to a disclaimer. 
Please refer to  http://www.ufs.ac.za/disclaimer for full details. 

Universiteit van die Vrystaat: 
Hierdie boodskap en sy inhoud is aan 'n vrywaringsklousule onderhewig. 
Volledige besonderhede is by http://www.ufs.ac.za/vrywaring  beskikbaar. 
_____________________________________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/attachments/20130622/6778dc8f/attachment.html>