<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 25, 2021, at 03:14 , Noah <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" class="">noah@neo.co.tz</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class=""><br class=""><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 23 Sep 2021, 22:10 Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss, <<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br class="">
<br class="">
> On Sep 23, 2021, at 11:55 , Ronald F. Guilmette <<a href="mailto:rfg@tristatelogic.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">rfg@tristatelogic.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">
> Owen, take some free advice. Stop saying stupid stuff. You don't have<br class="">
> a lot of credibility left to lose, but its just a waste of bandwidth to<br class="">
> say stuff that can so easily be disproven. The following was already<br class="">
> posted here as being part of a message sent by a Larus minion:<br class="">
> <br class="">
> <br class="">
>> � What will happen if AFRINIC loses the lawsuit and finds itself 50 million USD in debt?<br class="">
<br class="">
That’s a valid question and not misinformation.<br class="">
<br class="">
>> � Will the African internet be disrupted?<br class="">
<br class="">
Another valid question and not misinformation.<br class="">
<br class="">
>> � Who will take care of the sustainability of the current operation of the African Internet Registry?<br class="">
<br class="">
Another valid question and not misinformation.<br class="">
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>> � How can the resource members save their operations by transferring their resources elsewhere?<br class=""></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Owen,</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">The questions from NRS are tactical and intended to spew doubt and uncertainty among a handful of AFRINIC resource members who are unfortunately ignorant about matters AFRINIC.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>That doesn’t make them illegitimate or misinformation.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Why does Lu Heng who is suing care of AFRINIC looses in court. I thought that is exactly what Lu Heng wants. So why does he care? </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>I don’t know why Lu chooses to care about the things he cares about, I suppose you should ask him.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Why does Lu Heng care if the Africa Internet gets disrupted. Who went to court first? Anyway, Last I checked, Lu Heng customers are not in Africa since public data shows a handful of them are mostly in China and USA.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Contrary to the allegations, we have clients in Africa and we do provide services there. Contrary to the allegations, we do not want to see the internet disrupted anywhere.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Usually the victim is the one who sues in any situation. Since you know I am barred from commenting on certain case specifics due to the sub judice rules, I will speak hypothetically about some other situation that is similar…</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Let’s presume that MegaCorp was the only supplier of fish in your town. Further, let’s presume that you have a contract with MegaCorp to supply you a certain number of fish every week, so long as you continue to pay for</div><div>the fish at the agreed upon price and so long as you serve the fish in restaurants rather than letting them languish in the freezer.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Now, let’s presume that without evidence that you even have a freezer, MegaCorp says that they believe you are stockpiling the fish in a freezer and not serving them and are therefore going to stop delivering fish to you</div><div>in 30 days unless you can prove that you don’t have any of their fish in any freezers anywhere and have, in fact served all of their fish. Further, they assert that you are required to have served those fish in one particular</div><div>restaurant or they will stop delivering fish to you in 30 days. Further, you are required to identify all freezers you have and submit them for inspection and if they find any fish in the freezers, they will confiscate those as</div><div>well, no matter whether they are fish you obtained from MegaCorp or not.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Would you permit MegaCorp to do this to you, or would you seek protection for your restaurants from MegaCorp through the courts since MegaCorp is clearly trying to subject you to provisions that are not in the contract?</div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">So this is classic Lu Heng. He will use CIL, Larus Ltd, Larus Foundation and his Number Resource Society aka NRS tactically to advance whatever new false narrative he wishes to spread inline with his deeply rooted beliefs that RIR are just book keepers. He confuses Larus Ltd which is the book keeper for an RIR.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Sorry, that doesn’t parse… What false narrative do you refer to?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>RIRs are first and foremost a form of bookkeeper — They are a registry. Their duty is to properly record and register the delegation of IP number resources to entities that have applied and qualified for them.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Perhaps it is you that are confusing RIRs for some quasi-governmental agency when they are just another not-for-profit NGO?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I don’t think Larus Ltd. provides any bookkeeping services to any RIR save for the records required to be kept by them as an LIR under the RSA.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">You see, Lu does not care about any of the AFRINIC resource members he is currently targeting in his new subtle campaign of attempting to recruit a couple of AFRINIC resource members to his hongkong based NRS to his own benefit. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>There are many terms I would use to describe that recruitment campaign from NRS, but subtle isn’t one of them.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Further, as I work with Lu and converse with him almost daily, given that I am uncertain as to what he does or does not care about, I am willing to suggest you likely have very little actual knowledge on the subject, but prefer instead to offer speculation and innuendo as if they were fact. Given that you are an AFRINIC apologist, this is not surprising as it is a common tactic employed by them as well.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">All those questions are intended for a purpose. To cast doubt among some resource members who do not actually have a clue what is going on. The ones who pay membership fees each year and are not necessary involved with AFRINIC matters perhaps due to limited outreach by the administration at AFRINIC to its own members.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>I never said the questions do or do not cast doubt or said anything about their purpose. I challenged your assertion that they were misinformation.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I stand by that challenge. Please identify any misinformation. A question by definition is not information as it is a request for information. Since it is not information, it cannot be categorized as misinformation.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>If I said “AFRINIC is bankrupt.” that would be misinformation. Asking “Will these lawsuits bankrupt AFRINIC?” is not misinformation, it is a query.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Those message are misinformation crafted by desperate Lu Heng. You see if there is something he know best, is his attempts to abuse existing processes. ARIN CEO, did confirm this to be true when Lu went to ARIN asking for IPv4 and they rejected his applications until he came to AFRINIC service region where unfortunately, he managed to game the system.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>I don’t think Lu is desperate. I wish I could comment more about what I know, but alas, what I can say is very limited.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>What processes, exactly, is he abusing and how? You’ve once again made an unfounded allegation that he is abusing processes, please provide specific hard evidence to support it or stop.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>ARIN confirmed that Lu abandoned his application when it became clear that his intended usage didn’t meet ARIN policy. That wasn’t an abuse of process, that was choosing not to abuse process.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>You accuse him of gaming the system, but you have no evidence to support this. If you have actual evidence, present it. Show the facts, the exact provisions of the Bylaws, CPM, or RSA that you allege he has violated and the clear evidence of said violations. So far, none has been presented anywhere. Only allegation after allegation.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">The Larus foundation for a couple of years literary rendered the AFRINIC PDP hopeless with its so called Fellows (mostly university students) who were literary paid up mercenaries after all those stipends where not for free. We know most of the actors.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Larus fellows are absolutely free and even encouraged to speak their mind. The educational materials we provide to them are as fair and balanced as we can possibly make them. One time, the documents were even placed before this community and confirmed to contain only factual information clearly presenting both sides of each issue. There was one error, but even that did not change the overall meaning or objectivity of the document. This was agreed by multiple community members, including the one who was slightly misquoted.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Yes, most Larus fellows are university students because we believe that educating young people about internet policy and getting them involved early is the key to a robust and active policy development process that serves the broadest reaches of the community.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>It’s true that the stipends are conditioned on active participation and not merely sitting in seats. However, we don’t tell them what to say or how to say it. We insist that they become informed on the policy proposals under discussion, consider the issues for themselves and develop their own positions on the matters. Nobody has ever been denied a Larus Foundation stipend for taking any position on any policy proposal. We encourage participation through the foundation. We do not control or even attempt to influence what direction that participation takes.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Therefore, this allegation remains baseless.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>OTOH, we could discuss what happened in Senegal when a fleet of hair dressers suddenly appeared for part of the PDP, collected their free lunch and were on their way, apparently funded by a different AFRINIC community faction (and technically AFRINIC itself since they provided the free lunch), or the unseemly campaign against Mark Elkins in Nairobi.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">I mean, Cloud Innovation Ltd is literary abusing the mauritian legal system. Who the heck goes to court with 12 cases, I mean 12 law suits against an single member-baded not-for profit entity. Good for Appleby though, suits are not served freely.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>How is it abusing the system? Can you categorically say that there is not a legitimate cause of action in any of those cases? Do you even have knowledge of the subject matter content of each case (beyond the lopsided optimistic summaries provided by AFRINIC?)</div><div> </div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><a href="https://afrinic.net/court-cases" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">https://afrinic.net/court-cases</a></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Case 1 is not related to Cloud Innovation, Larus, or Lu Heng in any way that I am aware of. In fact, IMHO, case 1 is without merit and I hope AFRINIC prevails.</div><div>Case 2 is not Cloud Innovation and to the best of my knowledge is not in any way related to Larus or Lu Heng. I don’t have enough data to render an opinion on its merits.</div><div>Case 3 is the initial case filed in response to AFRINIC’s attempt to terminate Cloud Innovation’s membership based on unfounded allegations. It was set aside on a technicality and the appeal is still pending.</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>case count for Cloud Innovation so far: 1.</div><div>Case 4 is a separate case from case 3 because the matter, while related to and contributing to our cause of action in case 3 is required by law to be heard in a different court.</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>case count so far: 2</div><div>Case 5 is a separate case because it covers a matter unrelated to case 3. However, successful resolution of case 5 could render case 3 moot.</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>case count so far: 3</div><div>Case 6 was an attempt to avoid the need for cases 7 and 8 in the process of appealing case 3. A technicality raised by AFRINIC’s response to case 3 created the need for cases 6, 7, and 8.</div><div>Case 7 and case 8 were parallel efforts to ge our services restored after AFRINIC’s illegal action in response to a ruling on case 3. Case 7 was dismissed in favor of proceeding with case 8.</div><div>Case 8 is the case caused by AFRINIC’s board resolution of July 8 whereby we were able to get our membership reinstated and our services restored after some delay and refusal to comply by AFRINIC for some 54+ hours.</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>In reality the above 3 are one case, so case count so far: 4</div><div>Case 9 is really case 3, but AFRINIC is treating the appeal of the ruling in case 3 as a separate case on this page.</div><div>Case 10 is the attachment order for AFRINIC’s bank accounts to secure the damages caused by the boards improper motion from July 8 and AFRINIC’s implementation thereof.</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>case count so far: 5</div><div>Case 11 was initiated by AFRINIC, so you can’t count that as being Cloud Innovation. I will note that case 11 was AFRINIC trying to get rid of case 10 and it was denied.</div><div>Case 12 is the required follow-up to the provisional order in case 10, so it really isn’t a separate case.</div><div>Case 13 is the direct result of actions taken by AFRINIC and its officers. Since it is about acts taken after the other cases were filed and names additional respondents, it must be a separate case.</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>case count so far: 6</div><div>Case 14 is the result of AFRINIC’s failure to comply with the court order in case 8, so while it is technically a separate case, it is both the direct result of actions taken by AFRINIC andesentially part of case 8.</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Nonetheless, I’ll count this one: 7</div><div>Case 15 is initiated by AFRINIC.</div><div>Case 16 is the result of the most recent set of AFRINIC allegations and actions, but since I can’t comment on the details, I’ll count it.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>That brings our running total of cases to 8, not 12. You have inflated your figure by 50% vs. a legitimate count of the cases.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I’ve noted the reasons for there being 8 separate cases above.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Now you have this so called Number Resource Society nrs.help attempting to recruit AFRINIC resource members to the Lu Heng train. This is about Lu defending his personal interest as a typical dishonest individual he has been since 2014 when he lied that he would be investing in AFRICA and use the millions of IPs in AFRICA. I despise liars especially those who take the rest of Africa for fools.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Lu has, in fact, by your own admission invested in Africa and you have criticized him for doing so. Now you want to claim he has not and criticize him for that.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>You can despise liars all you want, but you must start looking in the mirror, sir.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>If you do not take the rest of Africa for fools, why are you so afraid that they will not recognize this recruiting letter for what you claim it to be?</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">While most AFRINIC resource members may not realise it, but its we resource members who are being sued. </div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>In fact, that’s what one of the cases is about… If resource members are truly members, then that status is being abused by AFRINIC and they should be entered in the registry of members and treated as shareholders.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>However, you are not being sued. Even the shareholders AFRINIC admits to (save the chairman) are not being sued. The organization is being sued. The resource members have zero financial liability for the outcome of any such suit. The resource members are not </div><div>liable for the organizations legal fees beyond the amount they have agreed to contribute each year as payment for their AFRINIC registration services.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Who is AFRINIC? Or What is AFRINIC? Is it the staff employed by AFRINIC ? Is it the registered directors? or is it the over 1800 resource members serving the wider African Internet community? </div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>A criminal organization that has an impressive inability to read and understand the contracts and rules that they, themselves, have written.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I’d pay close attention to case #4 to see what the Mauritian courts decide is the answer to that last question, however.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">In one of the suits, Lu Heng wants a purported 1.8 billion and some 50 Million from AFRINIC? He basically wants our hard earned money which we have contributed for over 20 years through annual membership fees that this guy wants to rip us off. </div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>He’s seeking monetary compensation in damages for acts committed by AFRINIC on behalf of those members. I’d suggest that if members don’t want to fund such damages, they should not elect such leadership.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">How much has Lu Heng contributed to AFRINIC since the dude showed up in 2013? </div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>I don’t know. How is this relevant?</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">What has he done for our region that any soul can admire him for beyond his fake PR stunts in terms of sponsorships which he calls investment.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Since this is shown as a statement and not a question, I presume you are bloviating and not expecting a response. I’ve deleted your further</div><div>bloviating as I don’t think repeating it serves any purpose.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I will say that the address suppliers we have contracted with so far have received the payments they have been promised, so I think your</div><div>claim of broken promises will ring hollow with them.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">To those who need some IPv4, AFRINIC still has IPv4 thought limited, reach out to them instead. Plan also your IPv6 deployments. Talk to your LIR as well and be alert when emails are sent to you promising you IPv4 and richness.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Yes, by all means get free pool addresses from AFRINIC while you can. Further, please do deploy IPv6 as it is the only real hope for a</div><div>useful future internet in Africa or anywhere else for that matter.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">I am calling out Lu Heng as an internet community member and a resource member. So unless you are Lu Heng, please stay out of this.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>You are replying to a message I sent to the list, so I’m responding to your reply. If you want to call out Lu Heng, send an email to him directly.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>If you post on a public list, you cannot preclude the public from responding.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=""></div></body></html>