<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:31 , Frank Habicht <<a href="mailto:geier@geier.ne.tz" class="">geier@geier.ne.tz</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Hi,</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">our customers in Africa" ?</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>I have no idea what they did or did not commit to with regards to Africa.</div><div>How is that relevant to the question at hand regarding the amount of address</div><div>space in question?</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Did CI?</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>7 years ago, CI made such a statement. CI subsequently adapted to the changing business</div><div>environment and expanded its operations to include both Africa and other continents. CI</div><div>submitted appropriate updates to WHOIS as these changes occurred.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Where is your basis in policy for this?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote:</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please consider<br class="">the amount of space<br class="">held by:<br class=""><br class="">Non-LIRs (end users):<br class="">Hewlett Packard<br class="">Apple Computer<br class=""><br class="">Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not:<br class="">Amateur Radio (AMPR)<br class=""><br class="">LIRs:<br class="">XFINITY/Comcast<br class="">Verizon<br class="">Akamai<br class="">XO Communications<br class="">Amazon<br class="">Microsoft<br class="">Google<br class="">etc.<br class=""><br class="">The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the<br class="">above organizations.<br class=""><br class="">Owen<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S <<a href="mailto:leoso@afcast.com" class="">leoso@afcast.com</a><br class=""><<a href="mailto:leoso@afcast.com" class="">mailto:leoso@afcast.com</a>>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">Hi Ronald<br class="">Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a<br class="">shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block<br class="">allocated. This is not in 199x year.<br class=""><br class="">On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette<br class=""><<a href="mailto:rfg@tristatelogic.com" class="">rfg@tristatelogic.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:rfg@tristatelogic.com" class="">mailto:rfg@tristatelogic.com</a>>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""> In message<br class=""> <<a href="mailto:CALm9Cbn+R9oen9+9YBjfbK5gGTcmEmZ1yhxgDfw04OTC3MxeZg@mail.gmail.com" class="">CALm9Cbn+R9oen9+9YBjfbK5gGTcmEmZ1yhxgDfw04OTC3MxeZg@mail.gmail.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:CALm9Cbn%2BR9oen9%2B9YBjfbK5gGTcmEmZ1yhxgDfw04OTC3MxeZg@mail.gmail.com" class="">mailto:CALm9Cbn%2BR9oen9%2B9YBjfbK5gGTcmEmZ1yhxgDfw04OTC3MxeZg@mail.gmail.com</a>>><br class=""> Meriem Dayday <<a href="mailto:meriemdayday@gmail.com" class="">meriemdayday@gmail.com</a><br class=""> <<a href="mailto:meriemdayday@gmail.com" class="">mailto:meriemdayday@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">This is a direct violation of the CoC.<br class=""></blockquote><br class=""> No, actually, it isn't.<br class=""><br class=""> The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use of<br class=""> it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is<br class=""> effectively<br class=""> public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any<br class=""> number of<br class=""> public sources (e.g. RIPEStat,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://bgp.he.net/" class="">bgp.he.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="http://bgp.he.net/" class="">http://bgp.he.net/</a>>, etc.)<br class=""><br class=""> If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it an<br class=""> affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the<br class=""> telescope and then just describe what they saw? And if so, then what<br class=""> is next? Book burning?<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Disclosing such information and data without the company's<br class=""></blockquote> consent is a<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the<br class="">concerned person.<br class=""></blockquote><br class=""> OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different<br class=""> obvious<br class=""> logical problems.<br class=""><br class=""> First, the Internet is *not* a private network. Fact's about what<br class=""> various<br class=""> companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to learn,<br class=""> without needing the consent of the companies inolved. That is the<br class=""> nature<br class=""> of the Internet. If you want to run your own closed private intranet,<br class=""> then go head. Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last<br class=""> detail of your corporate operations utterly secret. But the<br class=""> minute any<br class=""> company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it<br class=""> *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange<br class=""> for being<br class=""> a part of, and a participant on this great communications<br class=""> experiment we<br class=""> call the Internet.<br class=""><br class=""> I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud<br class=""> Innovation.<br class=""> And yet even well before today I already determined for myself<br class=""> that well<br class=""> more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered IPv4<br class=""> address space was being deployed to other continents. This is not<br class=""> a state<br class=""> secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100%<br class=""> public<br class=""> sources. Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same<br class=""> information.<br class=""><br class=""> Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its<br class=""> assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific<br class=""> RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate question,<br class=""> and one which I myself do not have an answer to. In any case, the<br class=""> courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. <br class=""> But the<br class=""> mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its AFRINIC-assigned<br class=""> resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the<br class=""> available<br class=""> public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets. Any attempt to portray<br class=""> them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship.<br class=""><br class=""> The second logical problem with the statement above is contained<br class=""> in the<br class=""> part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal<br class=""> consequences<br class=""> on the concerned person."<br class=""><br class=""> Exactly so! If the guy who posted the material you are reacting<br class=""> to was<br class=""> willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE OF the<br class=""> possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for defamation,<br class=""> then why are YOU worried about it? Why should AFRINIC be worried<br class=""> about<br class=""> it? Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation lawsuit<br class=""> is only a problem for the guy who posted the (allegedly) defamatory<br class=""> text, and he obviiously was willing to take the risk in order to<br class=""> express<br class=""> his opinion, SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU?<br class=""><br class=""> Here again, shouting down in the original poster in this manner<br class=""> appears<br class=""> to me to be just another a heavy-handed attempt at pointless<br class=""> censorship.<br class=""><br class=""> I hope that we here can all have open and frank discusions of all<br class=""> of the<br class=""> issues now of concern to AFRINIC without these kinds of attempts to<br class=""> muzzle dissenting viewpoints based on perfectly silly arguments.<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""> Regards,<br class=""> rfg<br class=""><br class=""> _______________________________________________<br class=""> Community-Discuss mailing list<br class=""> <a href="mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net" class="">Community-Discuss@afrinic.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net" class="">mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br class=""> <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss" class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss</a><br class=""> <<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss" class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss</a>><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Community-Discuss mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net" class="">Community-Discuss@afrinic.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net" class="">mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br class=""><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss" class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss</a><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Community-Discuss mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net" class="">Community-Discuss@afrinic.net</a><br class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Community-Discuss mailing list</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><a href="mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net" class="">Community-Discuss@afrinic.net</a></span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss" class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss</a></span></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>