<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang="en-KE" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi Jordi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">So, again you’re making suppositions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Firstly – you are assuming that the people who had their space transferred out from under them would have received any notification whatsoever if this was a database modification – there
is no guarantee of that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Secondly – you are neglecting the fact that legacy resources are not bound by the same policies and rules and never have been. The logic in this is pretty simple really. Legacy resources
were transferred into AfriNIC from other RIR’s. This was done without the willing consent of the holders of said space, and therefore, at least my understanding of this is, you cannot impose the rules of a new organization on someone who had their space transferred
to AfriNIC without their willing agreement. To do so would almost certainly be open to challenge, since you are binding someone to a contract that they never agreed to be bound to.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hence – if the space is legacy – and they chose not to update the database – no they are NOT in violation – because the rules are different when it comes to this space.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="en-KE" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Andrew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss <community-discuss@afrinic.net>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 20 August 2020 11:50<br>
<b>To:</b> General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss@afrinic.net><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINC being sued<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi Andrew,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">May be an English nit, but in Spanish when I say “involved” in this context, it means “those that participated in the illegal/against the
CPM action”.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">The CPM and RSA allows the board for those “involved” to cancel the account. No need for waiting for any courts decision. I understand this is what has been
done, I was just wondering if we were in case 1, 2, or 3. I think it will be good to know and this is not information that need to be hidden until the court decision, the community has the right to know that *<b>now</b>*, as it can help to clarify if we need
better policies, or whatever, to avoid that in the future.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I understand that some resources may have been transferred without the knowledge of the legitimate holders. However, if you’re a holder and
you didn’t realized that, it means that you’re not updating your records? It means that you’re not using those resources? Is not all that also against the CPM/RSA?</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Jordi<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">@jordipalet<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:71.4pt"><span lang="ES">El 20/8/20 10:35, "Andrew Alston" <<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>> escribió:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:71.4pt"><span lang="ES"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:71.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Jordi,</span><span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:71.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:71.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">“All the involved resource-holders should lose their rights”</span><span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:71.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:71.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">This assumes that the resource-holders who have legitimate rights to the IP space had any awareness of the transfers – which in this case is not reality –
the transfers were illegitimate the IP space was stolen from the resource holders. So – what you are proposing is to penalize those who had resources stolen from them without their consent or knowledge.</span><span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:71.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:71.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I point out that it has already been public acknowledgement over the fact that there are criminal proceedings on going against a former member of staff who
was allegedly involved in the theft of these resources – please – lets not fan the flames by making inflammatory suggestions that don’t take into account all of the facts as currently known.</span><span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:71.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:71.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Andrew</span><span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:71.4pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:71.4pt"><span lang="ES" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:71.4pt"><span lang="ES" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:107.4pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss <<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 20 August 2020 09:44<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINC being sued</span><span lang="ES"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:107.4pt"><span lang="ES"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:107.4pt"><span lang="ES">I've some points here:<br>
<br>
1) Were those transfers done following the Intra-RIR policy? Or it happened before that policy existed?<br>
2) Were those transfers inter-RIR?<br>
3) In any case, were those transfers authorized by the staff (according to the CPM)?<br>
<br>
If any of those questions indicate that the CPM has not been followed, all those resources should be claimed back and the involved resource-holders should lose their rights and the membership account closed, right?<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Jordi<br>
@jordipalet<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El 19/8/20 23:04, "Ronald F. Guilmette" <<a href="mailto:rfg@tristatelogic.com">rfg@tristatelogic.com</a>> escribió:<br>
<br>
For those few of you who may not already be aware of this...<br>
<br>
<a href="https://mybroadband.co.za/news/internet/363694-man-connected-to-african-ip-address-heist-sues-afrinic.html">https://mybroadband.co.za/news/internet/363694-man-connected-to-african-ip-address-heist-sues-afrinic.html</a><br>
<br>
As many of you might imagine, I will have more to say about this in due<br>
course.<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
rfg<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Community-Discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net">Community-Discuss@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of
the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Community-Discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net">Community-Discuss@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
<span lang="ES"><br>
**********************************************<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
<a href="http://www.theipv6company.com">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>
The IPv6 Company<br>
<br>
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of
the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>