<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"></head><body><div><div>Hello Owen,<br><br>Thanks for those suggestions that will be taken into consideration.<br><br>Kind Regards.</div></div><div><br></div><div id="composer_signature"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"><b><i>Serge Ilunga</i></b><div><b><i>Cell: +243814443160</i></b></div><div><b><i>Skype: sergekbk</i></b></div><div><b><i>R.D.Congo</i></b></div></div><div style="font-size:100%;color:#000000"><!-- originalMessage --><div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> </div><div>Date: 11/01/2016 23:49 (GMT+01:00) </div><div>To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> </div><div>Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss@afrinic.net> </div><div>Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] IPv4 depletion in AFRINIC will speed up IPv6 adoption - myth or fact? </div><div><br></div></div>May I humbly suggest that the protections offered in ARIN NRPM Section 12 may be worth considering as an alternative mitigation for the protections Andrew seeks.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I think there is value in allowing a violation to be reported without the identity of the reporter being visible to the subject. For example, if an employee of an organization knows that the organization is misusing resources, having their identity disclosed to their employer would likely put their job at risk and thus serve as a strong deterrent against such reporting. I don’t believe this is a desired outcome.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">OTOH, malicious reporting is also a valid risk as Andrew has pointed out. Going through an audit of a sizeable network is not a minor undertaking.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">IMHO, the necessary protections (none of which appear to be contained in the proposal as it stands) are as follows:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Audits should be in frequent. In the ARIN policy, IIRC, there is a maximum frequency of once every 2 years.</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>2.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The RIR should perform an initial investigation of a complaint without significant effort required on the part of</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>the subject. If the RIR finds probable cause for a more detailed investigation, then the subject should be involved</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>in a more thorough audit. Absent probable cause, the investigation should be dropped without further waste of resources.</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>3.<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The RIR should have some ability to track repetitive unsubstantiated reports from a common source and should disregard</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>future reports from such unreliable sources.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Owen</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 1, 2016, at 09:39 , Andrew Alston <<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" class="">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Arnaud,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Let me be very clear –<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I never expressed support for this policy – I asked a question.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I am COMPLETELY opposed to this policy, and will be until such time as the policy explicitly states that in the event of a complaint against a member, the member is informed when he is audited who complained and the grounds stated for the complaint. That is in line with internationally accepted practice that the accused may have the right to confront his accuser, and protects against malicious accusations for the sake of causing on going work for an organisation.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">It opens the door for legal action against an accuser by the accused, if the accused feels the accuser is lodging complaints that are malicious and unsubstantiated in nature, and it means that those who are complaining and demanding audits are doing so *<b class="">backed by evidence</b>* rather than because they feel they can.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I also argue that any person who issues a complaint should be willing to subject themselves to automatic audit, which again, will cut down on unfounded complaints that are not backed by evidence.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">In addition to this, complaints should be submitted by *<b class="">members</b>* alone, they are the true stake holders, and I will oppose any policy that allows a random member of the community to submit arbitrary complaints without proof, evidence or proper substantiation.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Further to this, 3.4 makes reference to unauthorised transfers. I can issue with auditing against something that is unauthorised when there is no process to authorise it. That needs re-wording until such time as there is a transfer policy. I also take issue with 3.4 that it is declared as a non-exhaustive list. That is an open door for abuse, define the reasons for audit and stick to them.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I also take *<b class="">HUGE</b>* issue with 3.6 – if you want 3.6 and you want to publish the names of companies that have been audited, firstly, you have to publish the names as well of the requesting party, and secondly, that would be a direct violation of the confidentiality agreements agreed to in the RSA which you yourself refer to in the policy.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Those are my thoughts – but until those issues are rectified – I do not support this policy, nor do any of the 15 organisations which I represent directly support this policy. Once those issues are rectified, I will *<b class="">consider</b>* support for the policy, but the above points are deal breakers for me – after that, consideration can be given.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Andrew<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Arnaud AMELINA [<a href="mailto:amelnaud@gmail.com" class="">mailto:amelnaud@gmail.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>01 November 2016 19:10<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>ALAIN AINA <<a href="mailto:aalain@trstech.net" class="">aalain@trstech.net</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General Discussions of AFRINIC <<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net" class="">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Community-Discuss] IPv4 depletion in AFRINIC will speed up IPv6 adoption - myth or fact?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">My Contribution through the lines of this message<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">2016-11-01 15:31 GMT+00:00 ALAIN AINA <<a href="mailto:aalain@trstech.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">aalain@trstech.net</a>>:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Hello,<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On Oct 29, 2016, at 7:18 PM, Andrew Alston <<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><p class="gmail-m-1307470007677758485msolistparagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Wingdings;" class="">Ø</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 7pt;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" class="">Yes. the usual story. You only know. Others are either clueless or naive..<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Not at all, I’m sure there are plenty of people who may know better than me. Unfortunately, as of yet, none of them have bothered to provide realistic ways of doing this that contain *<b class="">detailed</b>* proposals of how this would be accomplished and what the end results are.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">There are plenty of people here who know far more than me and you , but resolve not to speak as you have made this a low floor, repetitive and non productive discussions.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">The policy proposal was introduced on the 18 May 2016, and we have had these discussions. RPD and the AFRINIC-24 policy archives are available.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class="">+1 @Alain<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Yes Andrew, we had good discussions and a new version of the proposal which incorporated the changes was posted Tuesday, 9 August 2016, the link below :<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><a href="http://www.afrinic.net/en/community/policy-development/policy-proposals/1827-internet-number-resources-review-by-afrinic" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.afrinic.net/en/community/policy-development/policy-proposals/1827-internet-number-resources-review-by-afrinic</a> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">And I understood trough your e-mail posted on 14 October 2016, which is cuts below, you finally express support to this Policy proposal. <o:p class=""></o:p></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">====<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">"Just a question about the audit policy….<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Is it agreed that if we have such a policy, we should also audit the v6 assignments people are holding that should be announced under the needs based policy rules?<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Thanks"<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">===<o:p class=""></o:p></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">regards<br class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Now that you have asked again, see below...<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><span class="gmail-"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">See Alain, the difference here, I ask for hard facts and data – and when I’m asked for such I provide it – but I will not accept vague positions and unsubstantiated nonsense as the grounds for implementing a policy.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><p class="gmail-m-1307470007677758485msolistparagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-US" class="">a.)</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 7pt;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" class="">No one has yet proposed how these audits are meant to be realistically done beyond looking at the routing tables<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Policy proposals do not dictate implementation, but describe principles to action.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">The policy proposal aims to seek compliance to RSA which all members sign before applying for the number ressources. Section 4 of the RSA is very clear on parties responsibilities. <a href="http://www.afrinic.net/en/services/rs/rsa" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://www.afrinic.net/en/services/rs/rsa</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">The policy proposal says :<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">===<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">3.4 In case of non-compliance and if evidence has been established in accordance with the non-exhaustive list below:<o:p class=""></o:p></p><ul type="disc" style="margin-bottom: 0cm;" class=""><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Unjustified lack of visibility of the resource on the global routing table.<o:p class=""></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Breach of AFRINIC policies.<o:p class=""></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Breach of the provisions of the registration service agreement or other legal agreements between the organization holding the resource and AFRINIC.<o:p class=""></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Evidence that an organisation is no more operating and its blocks have not been transferred.<o:p class=""></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Unauthorized transfers of resources.<o:p class=""></o:p></li></ul><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">===<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Looking at the global Internet routing table at a given time is an option. Visibility or not in the global Internet Routing Table gives an indication of how to reach the destination, but does not tell about utilisation. A prefix can easily be seen in the Global Internet Table without being used. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> Utilisation in compliance with RSA and policies is what is sought here. What AFRINIC will be trying to establish is utilisation based on justified needs and compliance with RSA. In doing so, Members are bound to collaborate with AFRINIC as said in section 4.(4) below.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">===<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">(b) Cooperation:<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">(i) An applicant receiving service under an agreement is at all times bound to provide to AFRINIC such information, assistance and cooperation as may be reasonably required by the latter in the provision of the service.<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">(ii) Such request for information may also be made where AFRINIC is investigating (reviewing) the applicant's utilisation of the numbering resources already assigned to it.<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">(iii) Failure by the applicant, to comply with a request made at above may:<o:p class=""></o:p></p><ol start="1" type="1" style="margin-bottom: 0cm;" class=""><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">entail revocation or withholding of the service supplied by AFRINIC;<o:p class=""></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">be taken into account by AFRINIC in its evaluation for further and future assignment or allocation of numbering resources;<o:p class=""></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">lead to the closure of an LIR and termination of the agreement by AFRINIC.<o:p class=""></o:p></li></ol><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">===<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Investigated members to provide information and data to convince AFRINIC which may not need to do much.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">“Say what you do, do what you say and prove it."<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="gmail-m-1307470007677758485msolistparagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-US" class="">b.)</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 7pt;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" class="">No one has proposed where the resources to do these audits are meant to come from<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">AFRINIC as RIR is already committed to do this review as prescribed in the RSA. This proposal is just guidelines on how to implement it. But if there is a need for extra ressources, it is up to AFRINIC staff to say so. The PDP has provision for staff analysis on Policy proposal. Shall co-chairs request one ?<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><span class="gmail-"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="gmail-m-1307470007677758485msolistparagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-US" class="">c.)</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 7pt;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" class="">No one has addressed the MASSIVE potential for abuse of this policy<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">I remembered the discussions on possible abuse on the “reported” class of the policy proposal.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">===<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">3.3.3 Reported: Here, members are reviewed either because:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><ol start="1" type="a" style="margin-bottom: 0cm;" class=""><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">They have requested the review themselves or<o:p class=""></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">there has been a community complaint made against them that warrants investigation.<o:p class=""></o:p></li></ol><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">===<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">This has been addressed as we all trust AFRINIC to do the right job and as a community, we stand to revive policies and implementations in case of known abuses.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">People have been complaining about flaws in current policies, practices which have been abused by some members.<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><span class="gmail-"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="gmail-m-1307470007677758485msolistparagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-US" class="">d.)</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 7pt;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US" class="">No one has addressed the fact that if an audit is needed – then the original documentation is in question – and at that point you are by the very nature of requesting the audit saying the hostmasters didn’t do their jobs when verifying the application in the first place – and if you want to make implications like that – you need evidence.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">The application approved by Hostmasters at the first place serves as basis to all reviews. Questioning applications approved by Hostmasters is a different matter.<span class="gmail-"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">I am sick and tired of vague statements, vague insinuations, vague claims that everyone is stealing the space and taking it elsewhere,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Ah bon ? I have not heard that. But in case this exist, I would expect this policy proposal to help clear the point.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><span class="gmail-"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">vague claims that presentations that report on one thing some how are actually reporting on other issues they don’t ever reference. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">There are data in there, plus some conclusions. Nothing prevents further analysis and readings of the data.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);" class="">—Alain<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><span class="gmail-"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Come with real data – real facts – real figures – and then let’s have this discussion.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Andrew<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Community-Discuss mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Community-Discuss@afrinic.net</a><br class=""><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss</a><o:p class=""></o:p></p></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div></div></div></div><span style="font-family: Monaco; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; 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