<div dir="ltr">My Contribution through the lines of this message <br><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2016-11-01 15:31 GMT+00:00 ALAIN AINA <span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:aalain@trstech.net">aalain@trstech.net</a>></span>:<br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Hello,<div><br></div><div><div><span class="gmail-"><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Oct 29, 2016, at 7:18 PM, Andrew Alston <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.<wbr>com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485Apple-interchange-newline"><div>
<div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US">
<div class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div><p class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-family:wingdings"><span>Ø<span style="font:7pt "times new roman"">
</span></span></span>Yes. the usual story. You only know. Others are either clueless or naive..<u></u><u></u></p><div class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div><div class="MsoNormal">Not at all, I’m sure there are plenty of people who may know better than me. Unfortunately, as of yet, none of them have bothered to provide realistic ways of doing this that contain *<b>detailed</b>* proposals of how this would be accomplished
and what the end results are.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>There are plenty of people here who know far more than me and you , but resolve not to speak as you have made this a low floor, repetitive and non productive discussions.</div><div><br></div><div>The policy proposal was introduced on the <span style="line-height:16.2px">18 May 2016, and we have had these discussions. RPD and the AFRINIC-24 policy archives are available.</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>+1 @Alain <br></div><div><p dir="ltr">Yes Andrew, we had good discussions and a new version of
the proposal which incorporated the changes was posted Tuesday, 9
August 2016, the link below : <br></p><p dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.afrinic.net/en/community/policy-development/policy-proposals/1827-internet-number-resources-review-by-afrinic">http://www.afrinic.net/en/community/policy-development/policy-proposals/1827-internet-number-resources-review-by-afrinic</a> <br></p><p dir="ltr">And
I understood trough your e-mail posted on 14 October 2016, which is
cuts below, you finally express support to this Policy proposal. <br></p>====<br><p dir="ltr">
</p>"Just a question about the audit policy….
<p dir="ltr">Is it agreed that if we have such a policy, we should also
audit the v6 assignments people are holding that should be announced
under the needs based policy rules?</p>
<p dir="ltr">Thanks"</p>
<p dir="ltr"> </p>
<p dir="ltr">===</p>regards<br> </div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><span style="line-height:16.2px"><br></span></div><div><span style="line-height:16.2px">Now that you have asked again, see below...</span></div><span class="gmail-"><br><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></div><div class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div><div class="MsoNormal">See Alain, the difference here, I ask for hard facts and data – and when I’m asked for such I provide it – but I will not accept vague positions and unsubstantiated nonsense as the grounds for implementing a policy.<u></u><u></u></div><div class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div><p class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485MsoListParagraph"><span>a.)<span style="font:7pt "times new roman"">
</span></span>No one has yet proposed how these audits are meant to be realistically done beyond looking at the routing tables</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Policy proposals do not dictate implementation, but describe principles to action.</div><div><br></div><div>The policy proposal aims to seek compliance to RSA which all members sign before applying for the number ressources. Section 4 of the RSA is very clear on parties responsibilities. <a target="_blank" href="http://www.afrinic.net/en/services/rs/rsa">http://www.<wbr>afrinic.net/en/services/rs/rsa</a></div><div><br></div><div>The policy proposal says :</div><p>===</p><p>3.4 In case of non-compliance and if evidence has been established in accordance with the non-exhaustive list below:</p>
<ul>
<li>Unjustified lack of visibility of the resource on the global routing table.</li>
<li>Breach of AFRINIC policies.</li>
<li>Breach of the provisions of the registration service agreement or
other legal agreements between the organization holding the resource and
AFRINIC.</li>
<li>Evidence that an organisation is no more operating and its blocks have not been transferred.</li>
<li>Unauthorized transfers of resources.</li>
</ul><div>===</div><div><br></div><div>Looking at the global Internet routing table at a given time is an option. Visibility or not in the global Internet Routing Table gives an indication of how to reach the destination, but does not tell about utilisation. A prefix can easily be seen in the Global Internet Table without being used. </div><div> Utilisation in compliance with RSA and policies is what is sought here. What AFRINIC will be trying to establish is utilisation based on justified needs and compliance with RSA. In doing so, Members are bound to collaborate with AFRINIC as said in section 4.(4) below.</div><div><br></div><div><p>===</p><p>(b) Cooperation:</p><p>(i) An applicant receiving service under an agreement is at all times
bound to provide to AFRINIC such information, assistance and
cooperation as may be reasonably required by the latter in the provision
of the service.</p><p>(ii) Such request for information may also be made where AFRINIC is
investigating (reviewing) the applicant's utilisation of the numbering
resources already assigned to it.</p><p>(iii) Failure by the applicant, to comply with a request made at above may:</p>
<ol>
<li>entail revocation or withholding of the service supplied by AFRINIC;</li>
<li>be taken into account by AFRINIC in its evaluation for further and future assignment or allocation of numbering resources;</li>
<li>lead to the closure of an LIR and termination of the agreement by AFRINIC.</li>
</ol><div><br></div></div><div>===</div><div><br></div><div>Investigated members to provide information and data to convince AFRINIC which may not need to do much.</div><div><div><br></div><div>“Say what you do, do what you say and prove it."</div></div><span class="gmail-"><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485WordSection1"><p class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485MsoListParagraph"><u></u><u></u></p><p class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485MsoListParagraph"><span>b.)<span style="font:7pt "times new roman"">
</span></span>No one has proposed where the resources to do these audits are meant to come from</p><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>AFRINIC as RIR is already committed to do this review as prescribed in the RSA. This proposal is just guidelines on how to implement it. But if there is a need for extra ressources, it is up to AFRINIC staff to say so. The PDP has provision for staff analysis on Policy proposal. Shall co-chairs request one ?</div><span class="gmail-"><br><br><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485WordSection1"><p class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485MsoListParagraph"><u></u><u></u></p><p class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485MsoListParagraph"><span>c.)<span style="font:7pt "times new roman"">
</span></span>No one has addressed the MASSIVE potential for abuse of this policy</p><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I remembered the discussions on possible abuse on the “reported” class of the policy proposal.</div><div><br></div><div>===</div><div>3.3.3 Reported: Here, members are reviewed either because:</div><div>
<ol style="list-style-type:lower-alpha">
<li>They have requested the review themselves or</li>
<li>there has been a community complaint made against them that warrants investigation.</li>
</ol><div>===</div></div><div><br></div>This has been addressed as we all trust AFRINIC to do the right job and as a community, we stand to revive policies and implementations in case of known abuses.</div><div><br></div><div>People have been complaining about flaws in current policies, practices which have been abused by some members.<span class="gmail-"><br><br><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485WordSection1"><p class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485MsoListParagraph"><u></u><u></u></p><p class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485MsoListParagraph"><span>d.)<span style="font:7pt "times new roman"">
</span></span>No one has addressed the fact that if an audit is needed – then the original documentation is in question – and at that point you are by the very nature of requesting the audit saying the hostmasters didn’t do their jobs when verifying
the application in the first place – and if you want to make implications like that – you need evidence.</p><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span>The application approved by Hostmasters at the first place serves as basis to all reviews. Questioning applications approved by Hostmasters is a different matter.<span class="gmail-"><br><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485WordSection1"><p class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485MsoListParagraph"><u></u><u></u></p><div class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div><div class="MsoNormal">I am sick and tired of vague statements, vague insinuations, vague claims that everyone is stealing the space and taking it elsewhere, </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Ah bon ? I have not heard that. But in case this exist, I would expect this policy proposal to help clear the point.</div><span class="gmail-"><br><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal">vague claims that presentations that report on one thing some how are actually reporting on other issues
they don’t ever reference. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>There are data in there, plus some conclusions. Nothing prevents further analysis and readings of the data.</div><span class="gmail-HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>—Alain</div></font></span><span class="gmail-"><br><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US"><div class="gmail-m_-1307470007677758485WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></div><div class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div><div class="MsoNormal">Come with real data – real facts – real figures – and then let’s have this discussion.<u></u><u></u></div><div class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div><div class="MsoNormal">Andrew<u></u><u></u></div><div class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></span></div><br></div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Community-Discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net">Community-Discuss@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss">https://lists.afrinic.net/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/community-<wbr>discuss</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>