<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hello,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 29, 2016, at 7:18 PM, Andrew Alston <<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" class="">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class="">
<meta name="Title" content="" class="">
<meta name="Keywords" content="" class="">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)" class="">
<style class=""><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Courier New";
panose-1:2 7 3 9 2 2 5 2 4 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph
{mso-style-priority:34;
margin-top:0cm;
margin-right:0cm;
margin-bottom:0cm;
margin-left:36.0pt;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.gmail-m-7744315630848934945gmail-il
{mso-style-name:gmail-m_-7744315630848934945gmail-il;}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Calibri;
color:windowtext;}
span.msoIns
{mso-style-type:export-only;
mso-style-name:"";
text-decoration:underline;
color:teal;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:595.0pt 842.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:1382830704;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:-445067306 -2129364092 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower;
mso-level-text:"%1\.\)";
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level2
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level3
{mso-level-number-format:roman-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:right;
text-indent:-9.0pt;}
@list l0:level4
{mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level5
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level6
{mso-level-number-format:roman-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:right;
text-indent:-9.0pt;}
@list l0:level7
{mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level8
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level9
{mso-level-number-format:roman-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:right;
text-indent:-9.0pt;}
@list l1
{mso-list-id:1808163919;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:-94614372 67698699 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;}
@list l1:level1
{mso-level-start-at:0;
mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
@list l1:level2
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l1:level3
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l1:level4
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level5
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l1:level6
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l1:level7
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l1:level8
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l1:level9
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
--></style>
<div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family:Wingdings" class=""><span style="mso-list:Ignore" class="">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"" class="">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Yes. the usual story. You only know. Others are either clueless or naive..<o:p class=""></o:p></p><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">Not at all, I’m sure there are plenty of people who may know better than me. Unfortunately, as of yet, none of them have bothered to provide realistic ways of doing this that contain *<b class="">detailed</b>* proposals of how this would be accomplished
and what the end results are.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>There are plenty of people here who know far more than me and you , but resolve not to speak as you have made this a low floor, repetitive and non productive discussions.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>The policy proposal was introduced on the <span style="line-height: 16.2px;" class="">18 May 2016, and we have had these discussions. RPD and the AFRINIC-24 policy archives are available.</span></div><div><span style="line-height: 16.2px;" class=""><br class=""></span></div><div><span style="line-height: 16.2px;" class="">Now that you have asked again, see below...</span></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" class=""><div class="WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">See Alain, the difference here, I ask for hard facts and data – and when I’m asked for such I provide it – but I will not accept vague positions and unsubstantiated nonsense as the grounds for implementing a policy.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore" class="">a.)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"" class="">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->No one has yet proposed how these audits are meant to be realistically done beyond looking at the routing tables</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Policy proposals do not dictate implementation, but describe principles to action.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>The policy proposal aims to seek compliance to RSA which all members sign before applying for the number ressources. Section 4 of the RSA is very clear on parties responsibilities. <a href="http://www.afrinic.net/en/services/rs/rsa" class="">http://www.afrinic.net/en/services/rs/rsa</a></div><div><br class=""></div><div>The policy proposal says :</div><p class="">===</p><p class="">3.4 In case of non-compliance and if evidence has been established in accordance with the non-exhaustive list below:</p>
<ul class="">
<li class="">Unjustified lack of visibility of the resource on the global routing table.</li>
<li class="">Breach of AFRINIC policies.</li>
<li class="">Breach of the provisions of the registration service agreement or
other legal agreements between the organization holding the resource and
AFRINIC.</li>
<li class="">Evidence that an organisation is no more operating and its blocks have not been transferred.</li>
<li class="">Unauthorized transfers of resources.</li>
</ul><div class="">===</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Looking at the global Internet routing table at a given time is an option. Visibility or not in the global Internet Routing Table gives an indication of how to reach the destination, but does not tell about utilisation. A prefix can easily be seen in the Global Internet Table without being used. </div><div class=""> Utilisation in compliance with RSA and policies is what is sought here. What AFRINIC will be trying to establish is utilisation based on justified needs and compliance with RSA. In doing so, Members are bound to collaborate with AFRINIC as said in section 4.(4) below.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><p class="">===</p><p class="">(b) Cooperation:</p><p class="">(i) An applicant receiving service under an agreement is at all times
bound to provide to AFRINIC such information, assistance and
cooperation as may be reasonably required by the latter in the provision
of the service.</p><p class="">(ii) Such request for information may also be made where AFRINIC is
investigating (reviewing) the applicant's utilisation of the numbering
resources already assigned to it.</p><p class="">(iii) Failure by the applicant, to comply with a request made at above may:</p>
<ol class="">
<li class="">entail revocation or withholding of the service supplied by AFRINIC;</li>
<li class="">be taken into account by AFRINIC in its evaluation for further and future assignment or allocation of numbering resources;</li>
<li class="">lead to the closure of an LIR and termination of the agreement by AFRINIC.</li>
</ol><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><div class="">===</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Investigated members to provide information and data to convince AFRINIC which may not need to do much.</div><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">“Say what you do, do what you say and prove it."</div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" class=""><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore" class="">b.)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"" class="">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->No one has proposed where the resources to do these audits are meant to come from</p><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>AFRINIC as RIR is already committed to do this review as prescribed in the RSA. This proposal is just guidelines on how to implement it. But if there is a need for extra ressources, it is up to AFRINIC staff to say so. The PDP has provision for staff analysis on Policy proposal. Shall co-chairs request one ?</div><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" class=""><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore" class="">c.)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"" class="">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->No one has addressed the MASSIVE potential for abuse of this policy</p><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>I remembered the discussions on possible abuse on the “reported” class of the policy proposal.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>===</div><div>3.3.3 Reported: Here, members are reviewed either because:</div><div>
<ol style="list-style-type: lower-alpha;" class="">
<li class="">They have requested the review themselves or</li>
<li class="">there has been a community complaint made against them that warrants investigation.</li>
</ol><div class="">===</div></div><div><br class=""></div>This has been addressed as we all trust AFRINIC to do the right job and as a community, we stand to revive policies and implementations in case of known abuses.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>People have been complaining about flaws in current policies, practices which have been abused by some members.<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" class=""><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="mso-list:Ignore" class="">d.)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"" class="">
</span></span><!--[endif]-->No one has addressed the fact that if an audit is needed – then the original documentation is in question – and at that point you are by the very nature of requesting the audit saying the hostmasters didn’t do their jobs when verifying
the application in the first place – and if you want to make implications like that – you need evidence.</p><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>The application approved by Hostmasters at the first place serves as basis to all reviews. Questioning applications approved by Hostmasters is a different matter.<br class=""><div><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" class=""><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><o:p class=""></o:p></p><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">I am sick and tired of vague statements, vague insinuations, vague claims that everyone is stealing the space and taking it elsewhere, </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Ah bon ? I have not heard that. But in case this exist, I would expect this policy proposal to help clear the point.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" class=""><div class="WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal">vague claims that presentations that report on one thing some how are actually reporting on other issues
they don’t ever reference. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>There are data in there, plus some conclusions. Nothing prevents further analysis and readings of the data.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>—Alain</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" class=""><div class="WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">Come with real data – real facts – real figures – and then let’s have this discussion.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">Andrew<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>