<p dir="ltr">Dear Community Members, <br>
I salute everyone's brave and honest opinion. I share some concerns of members as well, while I also give credit to the last post by Andrew. <br>
While some of us are young in the community and also tap from the wealth of experience from folks through the posts and comments made on this mailing list, I want to humbly suggest that we consider some interesting opinion shared by Andrew. (Even when I don't agree with some of his opinion shared during some other debates). <br>
I also feel that since the Board Chair has commented on the issue at hand with a documented resolve to do the job we elected them to do, we might as well wish to give them a timeline to get back to the community so as to lay the matter to rest. <br>
Let us not forget that constructive and diverse debates help us to be strong as a community and as a region. <br>
The younger folks in the community like myself are looking up to concerned quick resolution of pending issues while we welcome more constructive debates, proposals and consensus. <br>
I also pray God give the board wisdom to take the best decision that the whole community will accept and support. <br>
Caleb Ogundele <br>
University of Ibadan, <br>
Distance Learning Centre.</p>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Jul 16, 2016 1:00 PM, <<a href="mailto:community-discuss-request@afrinic.net">community-discuss-request@afrinic.net</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Community-Discuss mailing list submissions to<br>
<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a><br>
<br>
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss</a><br>
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
<a href="mailto:community-discuss-request@afrinic.net">community-discuss-request@afrinic.net</a><br>
<br>
You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
<a href="mailto:community-discuss-owner@afrinic.net">community-discuss-owner@afrinic.net</a><br>
<br>
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
than "Re: Contents of Community-Discuss digest..."<br>
<br>
<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Resolution 201604.274 about Set-Up fees (Badru Ntege)<br>
2. Re: AFRINIC Council of Elders (Benjamin Eshun)<br>
3. Re: AFRINIC Council of Elders (MBJ)<br>
4. Re: Resolution 201604.274 about Set-Up fees (Boubakar Barry)<br>
5. Re: AFRINIC Council of Elders (Noah)<br>
6. Re: Resolution 201604.274 about Set-Up fees (Jackson Muthili)<br>
7. Re: Resolution 201604.274 about Set-Up fees (Owen DeLong)<br>
8. Thoughts and introspection (Andrew Alston)<br>
9. Re: Resolution 201604.274 about Set-Up fees (Badru Ntege)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 09:36:46 +0300<br>
From: Badru Ntege <<a href="mailto:badru.ntege@nftconsult.com">badru.ntege@nftconsult.com</a>><br>
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Cc: AfriNIC Discuss <<a href="mailto:members-discuss@afrinic.net">members-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Resolution 201604.274 about Set-Up<br>
fees<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:CA566E1D-5238-44FA-9C87-416BF9D404D5@nftconsult.com">CA566E1D-5238-44FA-9C87-416BF9D404D5@nftconsult.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Owen<br>
<br>
On 7/15/16, 6:47 AM, "Owen DeLong" <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
I?m done adding noise to the list and feeding the trolls. I have tried my best to work for a peaceful resolution, but it seems clear to me now that you do not seek information, but rather seek to foment discontent and I have no desire to participate in that exercise.<br>
<br>
If you mean the above it might be the most helpful act you have done for the community. There are issues the community needs to resolve and this is best done by themselves. With all due respect the community sees you as on outsider and as wrong as this might be in RIR eco system that?s just it. (before anyone reads anything out of this statement it means from another RIR)<br>
<br>
What might seem factual to you will be seem as a statement pursuing an agenda. Just like every time I post something it is seem as an attack on the establishment, your posts are also seen as a defense on the establishment. I?m sure most of the time it's not your intent but perceptions and paradigms are hard to change at times.<br>
<br>
Of recent I also think you crossed the line in some of your statements. By that in our culture you are a guest and there?s a line that one has to be cautious not to cross as a guest.<br>
<br>
You have been a long time friend of the community and I urge you continue the friendship when it comes to the technical value you bring.<br>
<br>
As tempting as it might be when you add your opinion to a topic under discussion it seems to spin out of control and I?m sure many silently agree with Marcus?s email.<br>
<br>
To those who might be tempted to spin this email into anything else I ask you do not.<br>
<br>
We need to move forward and build our community. We will never agree with everyone and that is why we seek consensus or go for the vote but we have no choice but to co-exist.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Badru<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Owen<br>
<br>
<br>
-------------- next part --------------<br>
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
URL: <<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/attachments/20160715/2a0cdbbc/attachment-0001.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/attachments/20160715/2a0cdbbc/attachment-0001.html</a>><br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 14:59:09 +0000<br>
From: Benjamin Eshun <<a href="mailto:benjamin.eshun@gmail.com">benjamin.eshun@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC Council of Elders<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:140C6B8F-BA0F-43BE-A928-725B87FC7428@gmail.com">140C6B8F-BA0F-43BE-A928-725B87FC7428@gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Dear Alan,<br>
<br>
What secrets do we have to hide about how AfriNIC is governed? Why not provide the minutes without redaction so if it resolves this festering matter once and for all?<br>
<br>
It does not makes sense to me and it is clear that there is something to hide. The board is not able to tell the community what transpired and points fingers at those who would inform us.<br>
<br>
I would appreciate it better if the organisation was a private company or had some information that was of some trade secret value. But AfriNIC is basically a monopoly in the region and cannot have competition from any of the other RIRs.<br>
<br>
I'm beginning to see signs of elected officers of a community that unilaterally take decisions and actions without due recourse to the membership that put them there in the first place.<br>
<br>
This truly saddens me. Afrinic board meetings should be public.<br>
<br>
Benjamin<br>
<br>
<br>
On Jul 15, 2016, at 5:26 AM, Alan Barrett <<a href="mailto:alan.barrett@afrinic.net">alan.barrett@afrinic.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
> On 15 Jul 2016, at 02:43, Benjamin Eshun <<a href="mailto:benjamin.eshun@gmail.com">benjamin.eshun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Chair Sunday,<br>
><br>
> When can we the community have the transcripts of the 2014 meetings as it being after a 1 year, the<br>
> minutes are still not published. So pls tell us know when we can expect it.<br>
<br>
Don?t expect transcripts to be published at all. The Board has committed to publish minutes, but reserves the right to redact them before publication. In the case of old minutes that have not yet been published, the process of redaction (to remove information that had never been planned to be published) is ongoing. I expect it to be done by the end of 2016.<br>
<br>
Alan Barrett<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Community-Discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net">Community-Discuss@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss</a><br>
-------------- next part --------------<br>
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
URL: <<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/attachments/20160715/a3caf282/attachment-0001.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/attachments/20160715/a3caf282/attachment-0001.html</a>><br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 16:22:20 +0100<br>
From: "MBJ" <<a href="mailto:mbjmaa@topnet.tn">mbjmaa@topnet.tn</a>><br>
To: "'General Discussions of AFRINIC'" <<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC Council of Elders<br>
Message-ID: <044b01d1deac$adf79480$09e6bd80$@tn><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"<br>
<br>
Dear Alan,<br>
One year and two years to write minutes is toooooo much.<br>
Please close this discussion by providing the minutes ASAP.<br>
Thanks<br>
Mustapha<br>
<br>
-----Message d'origine-----<br>
De : Alan Barrett [mailto:<a href="mailto:alan.barrett@afrinic.net">alan.barrett@afrinic.net</a>]<br>
Envoy? : vendredi 15 juillet 2016 10:20<br>
? : General Discussions of AFRINIC<br>
Objet : Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC Council of Elders<br>
<br>
<br>
> On 15 Jul 2016, at 11:21, Jackson Muthili <<a href="mailto:jacksonmuthi@gmail.com">jacksonmuthi@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 8:26 AM, Alan Barrett <<a href="mailto:alan.barrett@afrinic.net">alan.barrett@afrinic.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Don?t expect transcripts to be published at all. The Board has committed to publish minutes, but reserves the right to redact them before publication. In the case of old minutes that have not yet been published, the process of redaction (to remove information that had never been planned to be published) is ongoing.<br>
><br>
> What is the generally agreed practice around redacting some<br>
> information in minutes when there are some persons affected by that<br>
> redacted information amid a dispute?<br>
<br>
At the time that the meetings in question were held (2014 and 2015), the participants in the meetings expected the minutes to be kept confidential. Subsequently, the Board agreed to publish redacted versions of the minutes. Redaction must be done carefully to preserve the confidentiality of sensitive parts of the discussions, while publishing parts that are not sensitive.<br>
<br>
Alan Barrett<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Community-Discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net">Community-Discuss@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 16:09:49 +0000<br>
From: Boubakar Barry <<a href="mailto:boubakarbarry@gmail.com">boubakarbarry@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Cc: AfriNIC Discuss <<a href="mailto:members-discuss@afrinic.net">members-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Resolution 201604.274 about Set-Up<br>
fees<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAGrBSSifgN86Y-AFomNw3MNzyXB=WuGe=m9fSa=<a href="mailto:Jnk5bgB9Mrw@mail.gmail.com">Jnk5bgB9Mrw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Dear All,<br>
<br>
I think that what is going on is quite disgusting and not good for AfriNIC.<br>
<br>
Permit me to to especially address Owen Delong's behaviour. If he can't<br>
help us solving our problems, he shouldn't add more to them.<br>
<br>
Every responsible person who is an observer in any organisation such as<br>
AfriNIC, whatever the openness and inclusiveness are, would reasonably<br>
refrain him/herself from intervening in sensitive internal issues,<br>
especially when it's about governance.<br>
<br>
I personally have now the impression that AfriNIC Board and Secretariat<br>
don't exist and/or have outsourced their communication to address issues of<br>
members and the community at large. Or some people have given themselves<br>
this power and role. This is far from being good for AfriNIC and its<br>
leadership.<br>
<br>
If Mr. Delong's objective is to support AfriNIC, it would be good for him<br>
to think carefully about when and where to intervene and avoid interfering<br>
too much in AfriNIC internal issues, as many other observers are wisely<br>
doing.<br>
<br>
Boubakar<br>
-------------- next part --------------<br>
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
URL: <<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/attachments/20160715/54b64bba/attachment-0001.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/attachments/20160715/54b64bba/attachment-0001.html</a>><br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 19:12:23 +0300<br>
From: Noah <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz">noah@neo.co.tz</a>><br>
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC Council of Elders<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAEqgTWbiduKv=<a href="mailto:CktHPoiZeAewDxd%2BAeHTBwNx8qDeXTn3J5XdA@mail.gmail.com">CktHPoiZeAewDxd+AeHTBwNx8qDeXTn3J5XdA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
On 15 Jul 2016 18:24, "MBJ" <<a href="mailto:mbjmaa@topnet.tn">mbjmaa@topnet.tn</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Dear Alan,<br>
> One year and two years to write minutes is toooooo much.<br>
<br>
Actually those minutes were to be published last year in August.<br>
<br>
Had they been published, we woudnt find ourselves in this Fiasco...<br>
<br>
> Thanks<br>
> Mustapha<br>
><br>
<br>
Noah<br>
-------------- next part --------------<br>
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
URL: <<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/attachments/20160715/859ed4fa/attachment-0001.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/attachments/20160715/859ed4fa/attachment-0001.html</a>><br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 19:47:50 +0300<br>
From: Jackson Muthili <<a href="mailto:jacksonmuthi@gmail.com">jacksonmuthi@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Cc: AfriNIC Discuss <<a href="mailto:members-discuss@afrinic.net">members-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Resolution 201604.274 about Set-Up<br>
fees<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CA%2BDdLrQCaKMJmm%2BsS-SVmL7ceNfcOvgWMosonaym2thZvZNAow@mail.gmail.com">CA+DdLrQCaKMJmm+sS-SVmL7ceNfcOvgWMosonaym2thZvZNAow@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br>
<br>
I don't think anyone can restrict anyone on what to say or not say on<br>
a public mailing list that does not make distinction between official<br>
list members and observers.<br>
<br>
AfriNIC meetings too are open to anyone and whoever attends is free to<br>
comment about any observations on appropriate platform. It is<br>
completely unreasonable to expect a person from another RIR community<br>
to not talk freely and be called an outsider.<br>
<br>
Stick to issues.<br>
<br>
On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Badru Ntege <<a href="mailto:badru.ntege@nftconsult.com">badru.ntege@nftconsult.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Owen<br>
><br>
> On 7/15/16, 6:47 AM, "Owen DeLong" <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> I?m done adding noise to the list and feeding the trolls. I have tried my<br>
> best to work for a peaceful resolution, but it seems clear to me now that<br>
> you do not seek information, but rather seek to foment discontent and I have<br>
> no desire to participate in that exercise.<br>
><br>
><br>
> If you mean the above it might be the most helpful act you have done for the<br>
> community. There are issues the community needs to resolve and this is best<br>
> done by themselves. With all due respect the community sees you as on<br>
> outsider and as wrong as this might be in RIR eco system that?s just it.<br>
> (before anyone reads anything out of this statement it means from another<br>
> RIR)<br>
><br>
> What might seem factual to you will be seem as a statement pursuing an<br>
> agenda. Just like every time I post something it is seem as an attack on<br>
> the establishment, your posts are also seen as a defense on the<br>
> establishment. I?m sure most of the time it's not your intent but<br>
> perceptions and paradigms are hard to change at times.<br>
><br>
> Of recent I also think you crossed the line in some of your statements. By<br>
> that in our culture you are a guest and there?s a line that one has to be<br>
> cautious not to cross as a guest.<br>
><br>
> You have been a long time friend of the community and I urge you continue<br>
> the friendship when it comes to the technical value you bring.<br>
><br>
> As tempting as it might be when you add your opinion to a topic under<br>
> discussion it seems to spin out of control and I?m sure many silently agree<br>
> with Marcus?s email.<br>
><br>
> To those who might be tempted to spin this email into anything else I ask<br>
> you do not.<br>
><br>
> We need to move forward and build our community. We will never agree with<br>
> everyone and that is why we seek consensus or go for the vote but we have no<br>
> choice but to co-exist.<br>
><br>
> Regards<br>
><br>
> Badru<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Owen<br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Community-Discuss mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net">Community-Discuss@afrinic.net</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 7<br>
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 14:48:58 -0700<br>
From: Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>><br>
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Cc: AfriNIC Discuss <<a href="mailto:members-discuss@afrinic.net">members-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Resolution 201604.274 about Set-Up<br>
fees<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:B4A8543D-E004-4ADB-8449-4FAA9C6827F3@delong.com">B4A8543D-E004-4ADB-8449-4FAA9C6827F3@delong.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
<br>
> On Jul 14, 2016, at 23:36 , Badru Ntege <<a href="mailto:badru.ntege@nftconsult.com">badru.ntege@nftconsult.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Owen<br>
><br>
> On 7/15/16, 6:47 AM, "Owen DeLong" <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> I?m done adding noise to the list and feeding the trolls. I have tried my best to work for a peaceful resolution, but it seems clear to me now that you do not seek information, but rather seek to foment discontent and I have no desire to participate in that exercise.<br>
><br>
><br>
> If you mean the above it might be the most helpful act you have done for the community. There are issues the community needs to resolve and this is best done by themselves. With all due respect the community sees you as on outsider and as wrong as this might be in RIR eco system that?s just it. (before anyone reads anything out of this statement it means from another RIR)<br>
<br>
Then the community must adjust their perspective. I work for a company which has substantial operations in the AfriNIC service region. We care very deeply about what happens and whether you like it or not, as a result, I am, in fact, a member of the community and not an outsider at this point.<br>
<br>
> What might seem factual to you will be seem as a statement pursuing an agenda. Just like every time I post something it is seem as an attack on the establishment, your posts are also seen as a defense on the establishment. I?m sure most of the time it's not your intent but perceptions and paradigms are hard to change at times.<br>
<br>
People will, of course, have their perspectives and their agendas. My agenda here is plain and I have stated it. I want to see the best outcome for the region and for the internet in general.<br>
<br>
Anyone who believes I have a different agenda or would defend the establishment if I felt that the establishment was wrong should review my track record for an education.<br>
<br>
> Of recent I also think you crossed the line in some of your statements. By that in our culture you are a guest and there?s a line that one has to be cautious not to cross as a guest.<br>
<br>
Again, your idea that I am a guest and not a member of the community may be the source of some of your other errors in dealing with me.<br>
<br>
> You have been a long time friend of the community and I urge you continue the friendship when it comes to the technical value you bring.<br>
<br>
It is absolutely my intent to remain a friend of the community even as I am also a member of the community.<br>
<br>
> As tempting as it might be when you add your opinion to a topic under discussion it seems to spin out of control and I?m sure many silently agree with Marcus?s email.<br>
<br>
Then let them speak up as I have and as Marcus has. Let us hear everyone?s opinions and let the best opinions triumph in the debate and the market place of ideas. Let us not, however, focus on criticizing or denigrating each other, but instead focus on an open sharing of ideas and the constructive discussion and evaluation of the merits and disadvantages of those ideas that we might reach the best conclusion for the community and the internet as a whole.<br>
<br>
While I may not always live up to the ideal I have expressed above, it is always my intent and I try very hard to do so.<br>
<br>
> To those who might be tempted to spin this email into anything else I ask you do not.<br>
><br>
> We need to move forward and build our community. We will never agree with everyone and that is why we seek consensus or go for the vote but we have no choice but to co-exist.<br>
<br>
This is one place where I absolutely agree with you, Badru. I hope you will continue forward in this way.<br>
<br>
Owen<br>
<br>
-------------- next part --------------<br>
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
URL: <<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/attachments/20160715/7d5d5c85/attachment-0001.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/attachments/20160715/7d5d5c85/attachment-0001.html</a>><br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 8<br>
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 22:49:32 +0000<br>
From: Andrew Alston <<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>><br>
To: rpd List <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>, "<a href="mailto:members-discuss@afrinic.net">members-discuss@afrinic.net</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:members-discuss@afrinic.net">members-discuss@afrinic.net</a>>, General Discussions of AFRINIC<br>
<<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Thoughts and introspection<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:AMSPR03MB5343BE5D3A26BAE15E974E9EE330@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com">AMSPR03MB5343BE5D3A26BAE15E974E9EE330@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com</a>><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
<br>
Hi All,<br>
<br>
Let me start by saying, I send what follows wearing no hats, other than to say, I have thought long and hard about what follows, and I send it as myself, and with only my own reflections guiding what I write below.<br>
<br>
Over the last few days and months, I have thought deeply about what we have seen within AfriNIC over the last few years, and I have some observations I would like to share.<br>
<br>
Firstly, we may not all like each other, we may never see eye to eye as a community, as members, or anything else. But in the end, our like, or dislike of each other, is immaterial, as is even our respect for each other. What we do have to respect , and attempt to strive for, is the best interests of AfriNIC as an organisation, as a community, and as a critical part of the Internet on both the African continent and within the global context. We have to strive to apply our own individual minds to the problems faced, and the solutions required. Then, as part of this community, we have to attempt to voice our thoughts and our opinions, and in some cases those thoughts and opinions will be accepted, in others they will be rejected. I don't believe any of us have a perfect track record of perfect proposals, because we are all human, and humans are prone to error. The ideas and thoughts and views that are proposed then need to be weighed by the community, not based on position, not based on the age of the speaker, not based on the linguistic background of the speaker, not based on the geographic location of the speaker, but entirely based on the merits of the arguments put forward. Sadly, this is not what I am seeing in the last few years, and let me state clearly, that I am as guilty of the issue I describe here as anyone else. What I am seeing is a community that is no longer attacking the issues, but attacking either the person, or a subset of the community. I see us divided along so many different lines, and sadly, those divides are not leading to the spirited debate that will end in solutions, instead they are slowly tearing us apart. As I said, I am not placing blame on any person or collective here, I believe this is a far wider problem than that, and I also state again, I am as guilty as any other here.<br>
<br>
We use procedures to divert from argument, we fight from a point of view of "I'm right, and you're wrong, so everything else you say must automatically be wrong." We have gotten to the point where so often at meetings and on these lists, instead of listening to one another based on the merits of the ideas, views and suggestions put forward, we divert from the content of the proposals and ideas and views, and instead attack, for the sake of attacking a person, or a collective. This makes no sense, it is deeply harmful to growth on the continent, and it is dangerous, because it creates a snowball effect that amplifiers and propagates.<br>
<br>
Having worked in academic environments, one of the things that is valued in academia and in research, is open mindedness. Academia welcomes debate, and it is through debate that we grow, mature and learn. It is through spirited, and sometimes even heated exchanges, that our ideas grow and blossom. That being said, there are many forms of debate. If I examine the work by Don Lindsay, I can see many forms of debate that he describes as fallacious arguments creeping into the community exchanges across these lists. If you read <a href="http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html</a> I am sure you will see some of the forms of argument listed there as echoes of what we have seen of late.<br>
<br>
As I say, use of these forms is not unique to any person, and I to fall back to many of these types of arguments, but it is something we need to work repairing. We need to work towards a point where our arguments, our thoughts, our ideas, our views are spoken to build rather than destroy. Every time we resort to the behaviours described above, it simply amplifiers, propagates and spreads, and the damage it causes may one day reach a point where it creates terminal injury.<br>
<br>
What I would like to ask of everyone one of us, is that we, myself included, started to look at each other's thoughts and ideas based entirely on the merits of the arguments. Let us follow academic principles and research the positions we are taking, carefully, holistically, understanding all the facts surrounding our positions. Then let us debate these views from a point of view of knowledge, and from a point of view that we are debating in order to find the best possible path for AfriNIC as a community and as an organisation. I strongly believe that if we, and again, I include myself, can approach things in this manner, we can all have our perspectives changed, and all ideas can contribute to a better future for this community. Please do not misunderstand my position here, I am not suggesting for one second that we cease debate, I am simply suggesting that all of us attempt to focus more on the issues at hand, rather than attacking the proposer, the collective, or anyone else.<br>
<br>
I truly believe that the members of this community all want what is best for AfriNIC, I just am of the opinion that we have very different ways of approaching it. Ways that are born based on the experiences we have all had as we have moved through life. This is not to say that any one way is better than another, it is just to say they are different, and sometimes entirely unique in nature. However, when you combine this diversity and this uniqueness you end up with a stronger whole. Let us respect each other, and as Africans, as members of this community, as interested parties, attempt to move past our prejudices, whatever they are, and work together for what is in the best interests of the organisation and community. Let us leave the personal behind, and focus on the issues and what builds, rather than what tears down.<br>
<br>
With all of this now said and done, I personally would like to extend a hand to anyone who is willing. I am prepared to sit and engage one on one with anyone who wishes to do so, to explore their point of view, and for them to see my point of view. In the spirit of seeking common ground, so that where people feel that my actions are the cause of any discord, let us attempt to mend the issues, and go back to academic principles where we are debating the issues in an attempt to build a better, brighter future for us all. I am available on Skype, via email, or face to face if anyone wishes to engage in that manner and finds themselves in close geographic proximity to me. I believe that healing has to start somewhere, and I believe in life, that if you desire change for a better tomorrow, that change has to start somewhere. So, if it must, let that change start with me, and my actions, and my words.<br>
<br>
I look forward to engaging with all of you, and I hope that together, as a community we can move beyond the divides and come to a point where we are mutually seeking the best for AfriNIC, with respect for each other, and each other's views.<br>
<br>
I am sending this to all three lists, RPD, Members, and the Community, because I believe that the same issues that plague our debates in one forum, spread across all three, from the policy side, through the member base, and into the wider community. I personally would welcome engagement from any member of any of those lists.<br>
<br>
Yours Sincerely<br>
<br>
Andrew Alston<br>
AfriNIC community member<br>
<br>
-------------- next part --------------<br>
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
URL: <<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/attachments/20160715/5098b9f5/attachment-0001.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/attachments/20160715/5098b9f5/attachment-0001.html</a>><br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 9<br>
Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 02:45:04 +0000<br>
From: Badru Ntege <<a href="mailto:badru.ntege@nftconsult.com">badru.ntege@nftconsult.com</a>><br>
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Cc: AfriNIC Discuss <<a href="mailto:members-discuss@afrinic.net">members-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Resolution 201604.274 about Set-Up<br>
fees<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:EE4DF72B-07E5-4526-9945-373DFB2D1878@nftconsult.com">EE4DF72B-07E5-4526-9945-373DFB2D1878@nftconsult.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Owen<br>
<br>
I think I understand your position, the call for calm on sensitive issues is out let's all try to uphold.<br>
<br>
The clarification on your membership is noted. I have always seen you as a guest so thank you for that.<br>
<br>
But I hope you read between the lines in my email.<br>
<br>
There are issues that are unresolved and might never be unresolved so we have to move on. When we drag those issues back as a means to defend a position like your email and Marks email you stir up the responses we see. I too noticed that I went back to those issues I had vowed to close. Which was not right for me either.<br>
<br>
So let's all find a neutral way to make out points.<br>
<br>
Once again thanks for your candid response.<br>
<br>
Regards.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 16 Jul 2016, at 12:50 am, Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
On Jul 14, 2016, at 23:36 , Badru Ntege <<a href="mailto:badru.ntege@nftconsult.com">badru.ntege@nftconsult.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:badru.ntege@nftconsult.com">badru.ntege@nftconsult.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Owen<br>
<br>
On 7/15/16, 6:47 AM, "Owen DeLong" <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
I?m done adding noise to the list and feeding the trolls. I have tried my best to work for a peaceful resolution, but it seems clear to me now that you do not seek information, but rather seek to foment discontent and I have no desire to participate in that exercise.<br>
<br>
If you mean the above it might be the most helpful act you have done for the community. There are issues the community needs to resolve and this is best done by themselves. With all due respect the community sees you as on outsider and as wrong as this might be in RIR eco system that?s just it. (before anyone reads anything out of this statement it means from another RIR)<br>
<br>
Then the community must adjust their perspective. I work for a company which has substantial operations in the AfriNIC service region. We care very deeply about what happens and whether you like it or not, as a result, I am, in fact, a member of the community and not an outsider at this point.<br>
<br>
What might seem factual to you will be seem as a statement pursuing an agenda. Just like every time I post something it is seem as an attack on the establishment, your posts are also seen as a defense on the establishment. I?m sure most of the time it's not your intent but perceptions and paradigms are hard to change at times.<br>
<br>
People will, of course, have their perspectives and their agendas. My agenda here is plain and I have stated it. I want to see the best outcome for the region and for the internet in general.<br>
<br>
Anyone who believes I have a different agenda or would defend the establishment if I felt that the establishment was wrong should review my track record for an education.<br>
<br>
Of recent I also think you crossed the line in some of your statements. By that in our culture you are a guest and there?s a line that one has to be cautious not to cross as a guest.<br>
<br>
Again, your idea that I am a guest and not a member of the community may be the source of some of your other errors in dealing with me.<br>
<br>
You have been a long time friend of the community and I urge you continue the friendship when it comes to the technical value you bring.<br>
<br>
It is absolutely my intent to remain a friend of the community even as I am also a member of the community.<br>
<br>
As tempting as it might be when you add your opinion to a topic under discussion it seems to spin out of control and I?m sure many silently agree with Marcus?s email.<br>
<br>
Then let them speak up as I have and as Marcus has. Let us hear everyone?s opinions and let the best opinions triumph in the debate and the market place of ideas. Let us not, however, focus on criticizing or denigrating each other, but instead focus on an open sharing of ideas and the constructive discussion and evaluation of the merits and disadvantages of those ideas that we might reach the best conclusion for the community and the internet as a whole.<br>
<br>
While I may not always live up to the ideal I have expressed above, it is always my intent and I try very hard to do so.<br>
<br>
To those who might be tempted to spin this email into anything else I ask you do not.<br>
<br>
We need to move forward and build our community. We will never agree with everyone and that is why we seek consensus or go for the vote but we have no choice but to co-exist.<br>
<br>
This is one place where I absolutely agree with you, Badru. I hope you will continue forward in this way.<br>
<br>
Owen<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Community-Discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net">Community-Discuss@afrinic.net</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net">Community-Discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss</a><br>
-------------- next part --------------<br>
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
URL: <<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/attachments/20160716/00e59d2d/attachment-0001.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/attachments/20160716/00e59d2d/attachment-0001.html</a>><br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Subject: Digest Footer<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Community-Discuss mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Community-Discuss@afrinic.net">Community-Discuss@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss</a><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
End of Community-Discuss Digest, Vol 33, Issue 1<br>
************************************************<br>
</blockquote></div></div>