[Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA

[Amin Dayekh]

Good Morning Owen,

There is something i wanted to ask you about, but please give me a short
answer and straight forward:

In your opinion, an organization that is offering bribe to people in order
to get their votes, in order to influence the outcome of the elections to
her favor in Camaros, - will that organization be trustworthy ?
- Will that organization have any right again to lecture about corruption
while it is promoting the culture of corruption (allegedly as per above if
it is true)?
- will you trust any word from that organization?
- will you have faith and rely on their intensions that they are upright?

I am not pointing any finger at you , rather i am just seeking your opinion
pls.


On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:30 AM Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Jun 16, 2022, at 22:26 , Amin Dayekh <admin at megamore.ng> wrote:
>
> I am not replying to this news paper, nor I have time to read it all.
>
> I will also ask you to remember your statement here, ( the resource holder
> are pushing for a transfer policy) i will also prove you wrong!
>
>
> I look forward to your attempt to do so.
>
> I find it amusing how you have cherry picked what you respond to while
> ignoring the most salient points in the prior messages to the point where
> when I limit it to the salient points, you choose to ignore the entire
> message rather than make a cogent response.
>
> Owen
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 4:40 AM Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:00 , Amin Dayekh <admin at megamore.ng> wrote:
>>
>> Owen,
>> for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red from
>> your ext
>>
>> *quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their
>> underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) *you used the
>> term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever the term
>> is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an application with
>> the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, just like when you
>> apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let me remind us here of
>> the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another member. this step was
>> taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own majority of the IPV4, and to
>> regulate the transfers and continue to monitor the ipv4, closing the door
>> on black and grey market. let me remind us also that such cases peculiar to
>> need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever reason the company might be
>> dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip resources are assigned "not
>> sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need.
>>
>>
>> Neither Larus nor Cloud Innovation is selling resources received from
>> AFRINIC… I stated that many other resource holders wish to do so and that
>> is one of the reasons that those resource holders are pushing for a
>> transfer policy.
>>
>> This is not inconsistent, it is your inability to differentiate and/or
>> your failure to look past your efforts to ascribe the most sinister
>> possible motives to every statement I make.
>>
>> The RIR doesn’t govern anything. The community governs the RIR and the
>> RIR is supposed to administer the registry according to the policies set by
>> the community and according to its bylaws which are controlled by the
>> membership of the RIR.
>>
>> Perhaps it is this fundamental misunderstanding of who is specifically
>> supposed to be empowered in the governance of the internet and as a result
>> the RIRs that is driving some of your other misstatements.
>>
>> For clarity:
>>
>> ICANN/PTI in its role performing the IANA operates the central registry
>> for IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses, and ASNs (among other things). It does
>> so according to global policies which are set by the RIRs acting in concert
>> through the Address Supporting Organization, specifically the ASO AC, which
>> is synonymous with the NRO NC.
>>
>> Each RIR receives resources from the IANA central registry according to
>> its justified need and pursuant to those policies mentioned above.
>>
>> Each RIR distributes those resources to its subscribers (members or not,
>> depending on the RIR’s specific policies) according to the policies set in
>> the RIR by its community and according to the bylaws of the RIR set by its
>> members.
>>
>> Each RIR is expected to operate within the policies created by its
>> membership and according to its bylaws. When an RIR fails to do so, it
>> becomes far more dangerous than is expected.
>>
>> Some RIR subscribers are LIRs (Local Internet Registries). LIRs provide
>> address space to their customers (usually for a fee) whether in
>> relationship with connectivity services or as a separate product.
>>
>> Some RIR subscribers are end users and simply use the address space they
>> receive from the RIR directly.
>>
>> Every RIR except AFRINIC has an inter-RIR transfer policy at this point.
>> Yes, the recipient needs to show need in the case of an inter-RIR transfer.
>>
>> There are many different reasons organizations want to be able to engage
>> in inter-RIR transfers and I enumerated several of them. You chose to focus
>> on a single one because that is the one you hope to be able to twist into
>> something sinister.
>>
>> quote: ( *.... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who
>> are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that
>> this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This
>> allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction
>> that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never
>> received serious attention in any other RIR.) *Answer: AfriNIC got the
>> smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing a policy
>> "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell will be
>> suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the scarcity
>> of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and retrieval
>> is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you are
>> referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and have
>> ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable to
>> AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do such,
>> with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future of
>> Africa.
>>
>>
>> If you are opposed to an inter-RIR transfer policy, then so be it. That
>> has little or nothing to do with whether or not existing addresses
>> registered to an organization by AFRINIC are allowed to be used outside of
>> AFRICA or not.
>>
>> However, the policy that does exist now clearly does allow AFRINIC
>> addresses to be utilized out of region virtually without restriction. A
>> plain text reading of section 6 of the bylaws makes this quite clear. A
>> plain text reading of the CPM finds only one place where this is
>> contradicted and it applies ONLY to addresses issued after the activation
>> of the Soft Landing policy.
>>
>> If you want to conduct legitimate audits, feel free. If you wish to abide
>> by the legitimate outcome of those audits when they show legitimate
>> utilization according to the CPM, the RSA, and the bylaws, I’ll fully
>> support that. However, use out of region does not violate any of the terms
>> in any of those documents unless the addresses were issued to the
>> organization after the activation of the soft landing policy.
>>
>> AFRINIC is free to enforce any policy which has been adopted by the
>> community and ratified by the board. There is no policy restricting the
>> location of utilization of addresses which meets that test at this time.
>>
>> *quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the
>> geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation
>> from you.)* I did not make any statement about winning on geographical
>> grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not say? who is
>> misinforming now?
>>
>>
>> You stated: "AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me
>> here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa
>> then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the
>> Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod
>> have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the
>> Judicial System. “
>>
>> Your claim is that AFRINIC should have already lost all cases on
>> geographic basis if my statement was true. I pointed out that AFRINIC has
>> neither lost nor won because the cases that relate to this matter have not
>> yet concluded. I did not put words in your mouth, I responded to what you
>> actually said.
>>
>>
>> quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir if you
>> really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft landing was
>> easy.
>>
>>
>> ARIN never passed a soft landing policy and it worked out quite well
>> there, IMHO.
>>
>> However, the only mention I have made regarding soft landing in any of
>> these statements is to mention that it is the only policy with geographical
>> restrictions on utilization codified in the policy. I’ve also pointed out
>> that said policy does not apply to any addresses issued to Cloud Innovation.
>>
>>
>> *quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or
>> client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the
>> list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.)*  did i
>> say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining and
>> dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is
>> revolving because of you and around you? I said : *Anyone *can convince *himself
>> with any lie* and convince the minions involved in this issue who have
>> been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie), did you see you or
>> me or owen or amin in this statement?
>>
>>
>> You made the following direct statement in a message sent directly to me
>> as well as an open list:
>> "Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions
>> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to
>> spread lie)”
>>
>> In context, it is quite clear you were intending to level this as a
>> direct accusation towards me. Your use of weasel words and attempted
>> evasions notwithstanding, at least I have the courage to own what I say and
>> take responsibility for it.
>>
>>
>> *quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or
>> client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the
>> list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) *Again:
>> Did I say you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I
>> mention you?
>>
>>
>> You said: "When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should
>> provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the
>> table corrupting the members to buy Votes.”
>>
>> You said this in an email directed to me and copied to an open list.
>>
>> So in effect, yes, you did claim I published a video, you did point a
>> finger presumably at me, and by having my name as the target of your email,
>> yes, you did mention me for all practical purposes.
>>
>> My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on their
>> website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and through
>> a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the
>> embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African
>> Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan
>> or the spokesperson of PTA?
>>
>>
>> In terms of the subsequent emails in this discussion, you put my name in
>> the To: field of your email. If you didn’t intend to involve me, why did
>> you do so?
>> In terms of the original message, you made a public comment about the
>> letter being sent on behalf of a “fraudulent and misleading organization”,
>> so I felt obliged to point out your own misleading information that you
>> have attempted to promulgate in this same forum and with your own misguided
>> and misleading video.
>>
>> I will note, that you did not address the following component of my
>> previous message:
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your
>> good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want
>> and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as
>> the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause.
>>
>>
>> To which I responded:
>>
>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and
>> be specific.
>>
>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws.
>>
>>
>> You carefully avoided answering this… Is it perhaps because you have no
>> answer here? You could not find an actual misquote?
>>
>> I find three messages into this conversation that this statement: "I have
>> no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is
>> justifying a wrong cause.”
>> is truly telling as apparently I am not such a second party and therefore
>> perhaps you are admitting by your actions that I do not actually have a
>> wrong cause. If so, this is progress.
>>
>> Owen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh <admin at megamore.ng> wrote:
>>>
>>> Owen,
>>>
>>> Don’t rush, all in good time.
>>>
>>> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no single
>>> piece of evidence!
>>>
>>> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh
>>> your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the
>>> proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which
>>> are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all
>>> cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System.
>>>
>>>
>>> *Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their
>>>> underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market.* Other
>>>> companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once
>>>> the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some
>>>> companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple
>>>> RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons
>>>> that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction
>>>> on usage.
>>>
>>>
>>> If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a number
>>>> of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued
>>>> space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be
>>>> an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa
>>>> is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC
>>>> and has never received serious attention in any other RIR.
>>>
>>>
>>> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical
>>> restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you.
>>>
>>> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose,
>>> as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa
>>> restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of
>>> the soft landing policy.
>>>
>>> What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend their
>>> rights under the contract they signed against a board that is misconstruing
>>> the bylaws and acting outside of its authority.
>>>
>>> The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few procedural
>>> victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a series of
>>> injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal actions it
>>> has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. Most of the
>>> cases are still undecided.
>>>
>>> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions
>>> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to
>>> spread lie)
>>>
>>>
>>> I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This
>>> statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is,
>>> frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.
>>>
>>> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide
>>> evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table
>>> corrupting the members to buy Votes.
>>>
>>>
>>> I’ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to someone
>>> else here… Perhaps yourself?
>>>
>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your
>>> good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want
>>> and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as
>>> the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause.
>>>
>>>
>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and
>>> be specific.
>>>
>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws.
>>>
>>> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which
>>> company you are talking about?!
>>>
>>>
>>> I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your
>>> statements. I thought that was clear from the context.
>>>
>>> Owen
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh <admin at megamore.ng> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear members,
>>>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who
>>>> are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC.
>>>>
>>>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of
>>>> Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan
>>>> tELECOM authority and not the government itself.
>>>>
>>>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan
>>>> telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to:
>>>>
>>>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter?
>>>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least
>>>> communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY?
>>>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty
>>>> as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the
>>>> alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a
>>>> fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's
>>>> IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last
>>>> time I checked, is not an African country.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses
>>>> are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or
>>>> CPM says so?
>>>>
>>>> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and
>>>> corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one
>>>> engaged in a campaign of disinformation.
>>>>
>>>> Owen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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