From ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu Wed Jun 1 15:18:07 2022 From: ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu (Ish Sookun) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 19:18:07 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?ATTENDANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION__AT_TH?= =?utf-8?q?E_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> Message-ID: <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> Dear AFRINIC Legal, > On 31 May 2022, at 16:23, legal at afrinic.net wrote: > > 5.1 You may access the AGMM 2022 online platform via the following url https://ais.conf.meetecho.com/conference/?group=agmm . You will receive a special token by Wednesday, 01 June 2022, that will enable you to log onto the online platform and participate in the AGMM 2022. You are further informed that since a corporation may be represented by ONE representative at the AGMM, once a representative of a Resource Member has accessed the AGMM platform, no-other will be able to access the same using the same token. All other interested persons may, however, follow the AGMM proceedings through AFRINIC?s youtube channel. I read Article 12.14(9) of the AFRINIC Bylaws. It says that corporations may act by representative. In the above you say ONE representative. Nowhere in the Bylaws or the Companies Act 2001 of Mauritius, the word ?representative? is defined as being ONE ?person?. Can you please help me understand this? Do the Bylaws prevent in any way, for a Resource Member to be represented by ONE ?group? of two persons? The two persons being ONE representative of the Resource Member? Regards, ??? Ish Sookun Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From comms at afrinic.net Wed Jun 1 17:58:19 2022 From: comms at afrinic.net (AFRINIC Communication) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 21:58:19 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION__AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETI?= =?utf-8?b?TkcgKEFHTU0p?= In-Reply-To: <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> Message-ID: <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Dear Mr. Sookun, We refer to your query with regards to corporations being represented by representative. As you are aware, AFRINIC's Resource Members are legal entities (i.e. companies) which can only act through their respective representative(s). In regard to article 12.14(9), you will note that same reads as follows: "Notwithstanding the other provisions of this Article, where a proposal is made by a Resource Member, the Board shall have discretion as to whether notice of such proposal should be given to members. Corporations may act by representative. A corporate body, which is a Member, may appoint "A" representative to attend an Annual General Members? Meeting on its behalf in the same manner as that in which it could appoint a proxy." In this respect, whilst a resource-member may have multiple contacts, it is allowed to select a representative of its choice to attend the AFRINIC's AGMM. As for your questions - Do the Bylaws prevent in any way, for a Resource Member to be represented by ONE ?group? of two persons? The two persons being ONE representative of the Resource Member? Kindly be informed that these questions do not arise for the simple reason that article 12.14(9) is clear and explicit. The bylaws is a legal document and is also an agreement between AFRINIC and its members, as well as an agreement amongst the members themselves. As such, we cannot unfortunately add or import words not forming part of the bylaws, and the bylaws must be applied as is, unless and until the provision in question is amended. Therefore, where a company has delegated for example two persons to attend the AGMM, only one of them will be admitted to the main AGMM Room (subject to covid-19 sanitary restriction - i.e. 50 pax) and the other person will again, subject to covid-19 sanitary restriction, be admitted to the secondary room where the latter will be able to follow the proceedings as an 'observer only. You will appreciate that AFRINIC has a member-base of approximately 2,000 resource-members and it would be wholly unfair to allow any one resource-member to be represented by a group of persons thus depriving other eligible resource-members from also ensuring attendance and effectively participate at an AGMM. We hope you have been enlightened by the above. In case you still need further clarification, please do inform us and we shall arrange a meeting with our Legal Officer who will assist accordingly. Regards, AFRINIC Communications > On 1 Jun 2022, at 19:18, Ish Sookun wrote: > > Dear AFRINIC Legal, > > >> On 31 May 2022, at 16:23, legal at afrinic.net wrote: >> >> 5.1 You may access the AGMM 2022 online platform via the following url https://ais.conf.meetecho.com/conference/?group=agmm . You will receive a special token by Wednesday, 01 June 2022, that will enable you to log onto the online platform and participate in the AGMM 2022. You are further informed that since a corporation may be represented by ONE representative at the AGMM, once a representative of a Resource Member has accessed the AGMM platform, no-other will be able to access the same using the same token. All other interested persons may, however, follow the AGMM proceedings through AFRINIC?s youtube channel. > > > I read Article 12.14(9) of the AFRINIC Bylaws. It says that corporations may act by representative. In the above you say ONE representative. Nowhere in the Bylaws or the Companies Act 2001 of Mauritius, the word ?representative? is defined as being ONE ?person?. > > Can you please help me understand this? Do the Bylaws prevent in any way, for a Resource Member to be represented by ONE ?group? of two persons? The two persons being ONE representative of the Resource Member? > > Regards, > > ??? > > Ish Sookun > > Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Wed Jun 1 18:14:48 2022 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 18:14:48 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?windows-1252?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTEND?= =?windows-1252?q?ANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION__AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=92?= =?windows-1252?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Why is there a restriction on multiple members from the same organization attending online - as stated we understand the physical restrictions - but the online restriction does not make sense. If you look closely at the clauses you specify - it refers to a corporate body - a corporate body is typically made of multiple individuals. Yes they may choose to be represented by one - but the corporate body itself may also be multiple individuals Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: AFRINIC Communication Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 8:58:19 PM To: Ish Sookun Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss ; legal at afrinic.net ; members-discuss at afrinic.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] ATTENDANCE & PARTICIPATION AT THE ANNUAL GENERAL MEMBERS? MEETING (AGMM) Dear Mr. Sookun, We refer to your query with regards to corporations being represented by representative. As you are aware, AFRINIC's Resource Members are legal entities (i.e. companies) which can only act through their respective representative(s). In regard to article 12.14(9), you will note that same reads as follows: "Notwithstanding the other provisions of this Article, where a proposal is made by a Resource Member, the Board shall have discretion as to whether notice of such proposal should be given to members. Corporations may act by representative. A corporate body, which is a Member, may appoint "A" representative to attend an Annual General Members? Meeting on its behalf in the same manner as that in which it could appoint a proxy." In this respect, whilst a resource-member may have multiple contacts, it is allowed to select a representative of its choice to attend the AFRINIC's AGMM. As for your questions - Do the Bylaws prevent in any way, for a Resource Member to be represented by ONE ?group? of two persons? The two persons being ONE representative of the Resource Member? Kindly be informed that these questions do not arise for the simple reason that article 12.14(9) is clear and explicit. The bylaws is a legal document and is also an agreement between AFRINIC and its members, as well as an agreement amongst the members themselves. As such, we cannot unfortunately add or import words not forming part of the bylaws, and the bylaws must be applied as is, unless and until the provision in question is amended. Therefore, where a company has delegated for example two persons to attend the AGMM, only one of them will be admitted to the main AGMM Room (subject to covid-19 sanitary restriction - i.e. 50 pax) and the other person will again, subject to covid-19 sanitary restriction, be admitted to the secondary room where the latter will be able to follow the proceedings as an 'observer only. You will appreciate that AFRINIC has a member-base of approximately 2,000 resource-members and it would be wholly unfair to allow any one resource-member to be represented by a group of persons thus depriving other eligible resource-members from also ensuring attendance and effectively participate at an AGMM. We hope you have been enlightened by the above. In case you still need further clarification, please do inform us and we shall arrange a meeting with our Legal Officer who will assist accordingly. Regards, AFRINIC Communications On 1 Jun 2022, at 19:18, Ish Sookun > wrote: Dear AFRINIC Legal, On 31 May 2022, at 16:23, legal at afrinic.net wrote: 5.1 You may access the AGMM 2022 online platform via the following url https://ais.conf.meetecho.com/conference/?group=agmm. You will receive a special token by Wednesday, 01 June 2022, that will enable you to log onto the online platform and participate in the AGMM 2022. You are further informed that since a corporation may be represented by ONE representative at the AGMM, once a representative of a Resource Member has accessed the AGMM platform, no-other will be able to access the same using the same token. All other interested persons may, however, follow the AGMM proceedings through AFRINIC?s youtube channel. I read Article 12.14(9) of the AFRINIC Bylaws. It says that corporations may act by representative. In the above you say ONE representative. Nowhere in the Bylaws or the Companies Act 2001 of Mauritius, the word ?representative? is defined as being ONE ?person?. Can you please help me understand this? Do the Bylaws prevent in any way, for a Resource Member to be represented by ONE ?group? of two persons? The two persons being ONE representative of the Resource Member? Regards, ??? Ish Sookun Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd _______________________________________________ Members-Discuss mailing list Members-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu Wed Jun 1 18:16:49 2022 From: ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu (Ish Sookun) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 22:16:49 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION__AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETI?= =?utf-8?b?TkcgKEFHTU0p?= In-Reply-To: <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Dear AFRINIC Comms, Thank you for the prompt reply. > On 1 Jun 2022, at 21:58, AFRINIC Communication wrote: > > Therefore, where a company has delegated for example two persons to attend the AGMM, only one of them will be admitted to the main AGMM Room (subject to covid-19 sanitary restriction - i.e. 50 pax) and the other person will again, subject to covid-19 sanitary restriction, be admitted to the secondary room where the latter will be able to follow the proceedings as an 'observer only. As an observer, the other person will not be allowed to ask questions. Am I correct? Regards, ??? Ish Sookun Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd [1] https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/private/members-discuss/2022-May/003275.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Wed Jun 1 18:22:49 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 22:22:49 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, 22:06 AFRINIC Communication, wrote: > *A corporate body, which is a Member, may appoint "A" representative to > attend an Annual General Members? Meeting on its behalf in the same manner > as that in **which it could appoint a proxy*." > > Part of the above sentence reads ... appoint "A" representative.... Noah > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu Wed Jun 1 18:27:32 2022 From: ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu (Ish Sookun) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 22:27:32 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION__AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETI?= =?utf-8?b?TkcgKEFHTU0p?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Hi Andrew, AFRINIC Comms & Legal, > On 1 Jun 2022, at 22:14, Andrew Alston wrote: > > Why is there a restriction on multiple members from the same organization attending online - as stated we understand the physical restrictions - but the online restriction does not make sense. > Yes, indeed. Besides I do not think this restriction, on online attendance, was applied in previous meetings. There hasn?t been any amendment to that particular article of the Bylaws between Kampala and now, unless I am wrong. Therefore, why the restriction on online attendance, now? Asking one member of the organisation to join the meeting platform and the other to watch on YouTube. Regards, ??? Ish Sookun Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Wed Jun 1 18:36:59 2022 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 18:36:59 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?windows-1252?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTEND?= =?windows-1252?q?ANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION__AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=92?= =?windows-1252?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: There have been no bylaw updates as concerns this - I checked. This is an entirely arbitrary requirement and as per the CEOs email - was decided by the logistics team - which drastically exceeds the authority of a logistics team when it comes into conflict with the rights of members What AfriNIC is effectively doing is denying members the right - among other things - to have legal council present and interacting - it?s a very very dangerous move and I will be quite curious to see how the court reacts to such an arbitrary stipulation specified just days before a meeting - considering long standing precedent and the fact that no such restrictions exist in either the bylaws or section 115 of the companies act Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Ish Sookun Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 21:27 To: Andrew Alston Cc: AFRINIC Communication ; AFRINIC Community Discuss ; legal at afrinic.net ; members-discuss at afrinic.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] ATTENDANCE & PARTICIPATION AT THE ANNUAL GENERAL MEMBERS? MEETING (AGMM) Hi Andrew, AFRINIC Comms & Legal, On 1 Jun 2022, at 22:14, Andrew Alston > wrote: Why is there a restriction on multiple members from the same organization attending online - as stated we understand the physical restrictions - but the online restriction does not make sense. Yes, indeed. Besides I do not think this restriction, on online attendance, was applied in previous meetings. There hasn?t been any amendment to that particular article of the Bylaws between Kampala and now, unless I am wrong. Therefore, why the restriction on online attendance, now? Asking one member of the organisation to join the meeting platform and the other to watch on YouTube. Regards, ??? Ish Sookun Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Wed Jun 1 18:46:02 2022 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 18:46:02 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?windows-1252?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D=09__AT?= =?windows-1252?q?TENDANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS?= =?windows-1252?q?=92_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: That section of the bylaws - is drawn directly from the companies act and deals explicitly with proxies - it does not deal with multiple admin contacts. In the context of AfriNIC because if the way it is structured - members are effectively shareholders. I?d you read section 115 of the companies act - anyone who is entitled to receive the notice of meeting is entitled to participate fully in the meeting - and that clause does not allow for company constitution override Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Noah Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 9:22:49 PM To: AFRINIC Communication Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC Discuss ; legal at afrinic.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] ATTENDANCE & PARTICIPATION AT THE ANNUAL GENERAL MEMBERS? MEETING (AGMM) On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, 22:06 AFRINIC Communication, > wrote: A corporate body, which is a Member, may appoint "A" representative to attend an Annual General Members? Meeting on its behalf in the same manner as that in which it could appoint a proxy." Part of the above sentence reads ... appoint "A" representative.... Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu Wed Jun 1 18:50:54 2022 From: ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu (Ish Sookun) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 22:50:54 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETIN?= =?utf-8?q?G_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Hi Noah, > On 1 Jun 2022, at 22:22, Noah wrote: > > Part of the above sentence reads ... > > appoint "A" representative?. I understand the ?A? and the second word is ?representative?. A representative can be a person or a group of persons. I don?t see why AFRINIC would prohibit a member from being represented by a group of persons. If a company wants to be represented by two persons having two distinct set of skills & knowledge, should that be prohibited? One Resource Member should have one vote only but attendance and participation (questions/feedback/comments) should not be limited but in fact encouraged. Regards, ??? Ish Sookun Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Wed Jun 1 19:17:54 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 23:17:54 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, 22:46 Andrew Alston, wrote: > anyone who is entitled to receive the notice of meeting is entitled to > participate fully in the meeting > The notice is sent to each corporation. Generally corporations tend to be reprented by their admin contacts in our context. I suppose the "A" representive is meant to mean that a corporation gets represention by all means in principle. Noah > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Wed Jun 1 19:25:41 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 23:25:41 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, 22:51 Ish Sookun, wrote: > Hi Noah, > > On 1 Jun 2022, at 22:22, Noah wrote: > > Part of the above sentence reads ... > > appoint "A" representative?. > > > I understand the ?A? and the second word is ?representative?. A > representative can be a person or a group of persons. > Hi Ish English is not my lingo as Swahili was my first language and primary language but I tend to think that the meaning changes depending on how words are contracted together. 1. A representative of.... 2. Representatives of.... 3. Representative 4. Representatives... Do all the above have the same meaning. Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu Wed Jun 1 19:36:30 2022 From: ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu (Ish Sookun) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 23:36:30 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETIN?= =?utf-8?q?G_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: <9FC7252A-9E1E-4BB4-9FD7-17F1C9CE7BE2@lasentinelle.mu> Hi Noah, > On 1 Jun 2022, at 23:25, Noah wrote: > > English is not my lingo as Swahili was my first language and primary language but I tend to think that the meaning changes depending on how words are contracted together. > > 1. A representative of.... > 2. Representatives of.... > 3. Representative > 4. Representatives... > > Do all the above have the same meaning. No, the above do not have the same meaning. Let me put this differently. When we go to the open mic and we state our name & affiliation, what is the purpose of that? The affiliation matters more than the name. Two persons affiliated with the same organisation cannot be counted as a plural representation because the affiliation is singular. Regards, ??? Ish Sookun Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From dewole at tinitop.com Wed Jun 1 19:40:39 2022 From: dewole at tinitop.com (Dewole Ajao [Tinitop Technologies]) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 20:40:39 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION__AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETI?= =?utf-8?b?TkcgKEFHTU0p?= In-Reply-To: <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> References: <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Hi Comms, I asked a simple question yesterday on the members? list: What problem are you trying to solve by limiting full participation of member organizations to a single person? There might be a better solution to the problem you foresee. It?s disheartening that everything has to be so contentious these days. Regards, Dewole. Sent from a mobile device > On Jun 1, 2022, at 19:00, AFRINIC Communication wrote: > > ? > Dear Mr. Sookun, > > We refer to your query with regards to corporations being represented by representative. > > As you are aware, AFRINIC's Resource Members are legal entities (i.e. companies) which can only act through their respective representative(s). > > In regard to article 12.14(9), you will note that same reads as follows: > > "Notwithstanding the other provisions of this Article, where a proposal is made by a Resource Member, the Board shall have discretion as to whether notice of such proposal should be given to members. Corporations may act by representative. A corporate body, which is a Member, may appoint "A" representative to attend an Annual General Members? Meeting on its behalf in the same manner as that in which it could appoint a proxy." > > In this respect, whilst a resource-member may have multiple contacts, it is allowed to select a representative of its choice to attend the AFRINIC's AGMM. > > As for your questions - Do the Bylaws prevent in any way, for a Resource Member to be represented by ONE ?group? of two persons? The two persons being ONE representative of the Resource Member? Kindly be informed that these questions do not arise for the simple reason that article 12.14(9) is clear and explicit. The bylaws is a legal document and is also an agreement between AFRINIC and its members, as well as an agreement amongst the members themselves. As such, we cannot unfortunately add or import words not forming part of the bylaws, and the bylaws must be applied as is, unless and until the provision in question is amended. > > Therefore, where a company has delegated for example two persons to attend the AGMM, only one of them will be admitted to the main AGMM Room (subject to covid-19 sanitary restriction - i.e. 50 pax) and the other person will again, subject to covid-19 sanitary restriction, be admitted to the secondary room where the latter will be able to follow the proceedings as an 'observer only. > > You will appreciate that AFRINIC has a member-base of approximately 2,000 resource-members and it would be wholly unfair to allow any one resource-member to be represented by a group of persons thus depriving other eligible resource-members from also ensuring attendance and effectively participate at an AGMM. > > We hope you have been enlightened by the above. In case you still need further clarification, please do inform us and we shall arrange a meeting with our Legal Officer who will assist accordingly. > > > Regards, > > AFRINIC Communications > > >> On 1 Jun 2022, at 19:18, Ish Sookun wrote: >> >> Dear AFRINIC Legal, >> >> >>> On 31 May 2022, at 16:23, legal at afrinic.net wrote: >>> >>> 5.1 You may access the AGMM 2022 online platform via the following url https://ais.conf.meetecho.com/conference/?group=agmm. You will receive a special token by Wednesday, 01 June 2022, that will enable you to log onto the online platform and participate in the AGMM 2022. You are further informed that since a corporation may be represented by ONE representative at the AGMM, once a representative of a Resource Member has accessed the AGMM platform, no-other will be able to access the same using the same token. All other interested persons may, however, follow the AGMM proceedings through AFRINIC?s youtube channel. >> >> >> I read Article 12.14(9) of the AFRINIC Bylaws. It says that corporations may act by representative. In the above you say ONE representative. Nowhere in the Bylaws or the Companies Act 2001 of Mauritius, the word ?representative? is defined as being ONE ?person?. >> >> Can you please help me understand this? Do the Bylaws prevent in any way, for a Resource Member to be represented by ONE ?group? of two persons? The two persons being ONE representative of the Resource Member? >> >> Regards, >> >> ??? >> >> Ish Sookun >> >> Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd >> _______________________________________________ >> Members-Discuss mailing list >> Members-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Wed Jun 1 19:48:15 2022 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 19:48:15 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?windows-1252?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTEN?= =?windows-1252?q?DANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=92?= =?windows-1252?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Actually the notice of meeting is sent to every admin contact for the organization. And the clause in section 115 refers to individuals - not corporations. Anyway - my guess is that once again the board will ignore this and once again we will have to let a court decide. I just wish I was wrong and they would take the simple way out - postpone the meeting - send a proper notice of meeting and withdraw these bizarre stipulations - but I suspect instead they will take the route of forcing this into court and wasting still more of members money - in top of the $600k they have already wasted by forcing members into a position where litigation was the only option Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Noah Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 10:17:54 PM To: Andrew Alston Cc: AFRINIC Communication ; AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC Discuss ; legal at afrinic.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] ATTENDANCE & PARTICIPATION AT THE ANNUAL GENERAL MEMBERS? MEETING (AGMM) On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, 22:46 Andrew Alston, > wrote: anyone who is entitled to receive the notice of meeting is entitled to participate fully in the meeting The notice is sent to each corporation. Generally corporations tend to be reprented by their admin contacts in our context. I suppose the "A" representive is meant to mean that a corporation gets represention by all means in principle. Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Wed Jun 1 20:14:04 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 00:14:04 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, 23:48 Andrew Alston, wrote: > Actually the notice of meeting is sent to every admin contact for the > organization. > This is a fact. I suppose its that admin contact who is the said representative of the corporation in our context hence the reason the org send the admin the notice. So I would assume that the "A" representative means the said admin contact can delegate someone else as "A" representative to their corporation. > And the clause in section 115 refers to individuals - not corporations. > Ack... Noah > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dndannang at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 21:38:26 2022 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 01:38:26 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Some of you want to create confusion over small logical issues. A corporation cannot be created by one individual. Corporation are represented by one Administrator despite of have many members in the team. That is why the registration is for one Administrative contact. Even a kindergarten kid can differentiate between singular and plural. On Thu, Jun 2, 2022, 12:14 AM Noah wrote: > > > On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, 23:48 Andrew Alston, > wrote: > >> Actually the notice of meeting is sent to every admin contact for the >> organization. >> > > This is a fact. > > I suppose its that admin contact who is the said representative of the > corporation in our context hence the reason the org send the admin the > notice. > > So I would assume that the "A" representative means the said admin contact > can delegate someone else as "A" representative to their corporation. > > >> And the clause in section 115 refers to individuals - not corporations. >> > > Ack... > > Noah > >> >> _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dndannang at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 21:40:36 2022 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 01:40:36 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Some of you now are going to request for the By-laws in your mother tongues which is an ambiguous request On Thu, Jun 2, 2022, 1:38 AM DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > Some of you want to create confusion over small logical issues. > > A corporation cannot be created by one individual. Corporation are > represented by one Administrator despite of have many members in the team. > That is why the registration is for one Administrative contact. > > Even a kindergarten kid can differentiate between singular and plural. > > > > On Thu, Jun 2, 2022, 12:14 AM Noah wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, 23:48 Andrew Alston, >> wrote: >> >>> Actually the notice of meeting is sent to every admin contact for the >>> organization. >>> >> >> This is a fact. >> >> I suppose its that admin contact who is the said representative of the >> corporation in our context hence the reason the org send the admin the >> notice. >> >> So I would assume that the "A" representative means the said admin >> contact can delegate someone else as "A" representative to their >> corporation. >> >> >>> And the clause in section 115 refers to individuals - not corporations. >>> >> >> Ack... >> >> Noah >> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sfolayan at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 21:44:23 2022 From: sfolayan at gmail.com (Sunday Folayan) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 22:44:23 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Noah, Suppose the Admin Contact is a role Email account that expands to four people? Sunday., On Wed, Jun 1, 2022 at 9:14 PM Noah wrote: > > > On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, 23:48 Andrew Alston, > wrote: > >> Actually the notice of meeting is sent to every admin contact for the >> organization. >> > > This is a fact. > > I suppose its that admin contact who is the said representative of the > corporation in our context hence the reason the org send the admin the > notice. > > So I would assume that the "A" representative means the said admin contact > can delegate someone else as "A" representative to their corporation. > > >> And the clause in section 115 refers to individuals - not corporations. >> > > Ack... > > Noah > >> >> _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Wed Jun 1 22:06:50 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 01:06:50 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 2, 2022 at 12:44 AM Sunday Folayan wrote: > Noah, > > Suppose the Admin Contact is a role Email account that expands to four > people? > Or could be the only individual who signed the RSA, who knows English is becoming a problem Oga. Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Wed Jun 1 22:14:30 2022 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2022 15:14:30 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?windows-1252?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTEN?= =?windows-1252?q?DANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEM?= =?windows-1252?q?BERS=92_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82686.1654121670@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , Andrew Alston wrote: >Anyway - my guess is that once again the board will ignore this and once >again we will have to let a court decide. I just wish I was wrong and they >would take the simple way out - postpone the meeting - send a proper notice >of meeting and withdraw these bizarre stipulations - but I suspect instead >they will take the route of forcing this into court and wasting still more >of members money - in top of the $600k they have already wasted by forcing >members into a position where litigation was the only option Mr. Putin has asserted that he had no other option than to go to war with Ukraine. There are always other options. If not, then why does every country on earth employ its own diplomatic corp? Has anyone considered binding arbitration as a means to resolve these various controversies? It seems to me that that might be a more cost efficient, and almost certainly a more time-efficient manner of resolving a number of outstanding disputes that various parties have with AFRINIC at present. Andrew is right, of course, to lament the high costs of traditional legal actions. But in which instances has AFRINIC initiated those costly legal actions? None, I gather. It therefore seems rather disingenuous, from where I am sitting, for anyone to bemoan these high costs if that party or parties are also associated in any way with the genesis of any of the costly legal actions in question. Regards, rfg From sfolayan at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 22:16:32 2022 From: sfolayan at gmail.com (Sunday Folayan) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2022 23:16:32 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Yes Noah, English, but much more, agreeing on 10.2 in the Bylaw, that where there are issues not clear like this, members will jointly resolve it, and it will become precedent. - Sunday. On Wed, Jun 1, 2022 at 11:07 PM Noah wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 2, 2022 at 12:44 AM Sunday Folayan wrote: > >> Noah, >> >> Suppose the Admin Contact is a role Email account that expands to four >> people? >> > > Or could be the only individual who signed the RSA, who knows English is > becoming a problem Oga. > > Noah > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Wed Jun 1 22:23:45 2022 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2022 15:23:45 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82819.1654122225@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: >Some of you now are going to request for the By-laws in your mother tongues >which is an ambiguous request Also, my own mother tongue is profanity, so I'm not sure how well this would work out, in practice. Regards, rfg From dndannang at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 22:24:03 2022 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 02:24:03 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: <82686.1654121670@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <82686.1654121670@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: Ronald, Mr. Putin is not in a war, it's a special military invasion. Daniel On Thu, Jun 2, 2022, 2:15 AM Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > In message < > AM7PR03MB6451058C723A7B05D58D7235EEDF9 at AM7PR03MB6451.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>, > > Andrew Alston wrote: > > >Anyway - my guess is that once again the board will ignore this and once > >again we will have to let a court decide. I just wish I was wrong and they > >would take the simple way out - postpone the meeting - send a proper > notice > >of meeting and withdraw these bizarre stipulations - but I suspect instead > >they will take the route of forcing this into court and wasting still more > >of members money - in top of the $600k they have already wasted by forcing > >members into a position where litigation was the only option > > Mr. Putin has asserted that he had no other option than to go to war with > Ukraine. > > There are always other options. If not, then why does every country on > earth > employ its own diplomatic corp? > > Has anyone considered binding arbitration as a means to resolve these > various > controversies? It seems to me that that might be a more cost efficient, > and almost certainly a more time-efficient manner of resolving a number of > outstanding disputes that various parties have with AFRINIC at present. > > Andrew is right, of course, to lament the high costs of traditional legal > actions. > But in which instances has AFRINIC initiated those costly legal actions? > None, > I gather. It therefore seems rather disingenuous, from where I am > sitting, for > anyone to bemoan these high costs if that party or parties are also > associated > in any way with the genesis of any of the costly legal actions in question. > > > Regards, > rfg > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Wed Jun 1 22:32:31 2022 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2022 15:32:31 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <82925.1654122751@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: >Mr. Putin is not in a war, it's a special military invasion. I stand corrected. Thank you. (In my own defense, I was misled by the presence of all of those tanks, ships, cannons, missiles, troops, dead people, and destroyed cities, etc.) Regards, rfg From geier at geier.ne.tz Thu Jun 2 04:34:59 2022 From: geier at geier.ne.tz (Frank Habicht) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 07:34:59 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETIN?= =?utf-8?q?G_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Hi, I think there is a wrong assumption... On 02/06/2022 00:38, DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > Some of you want to create confusion over small logical issues. > > A corporation cannot be created by one individual. Corporation are > represented by one Administrator despite of have many members in the > team. That is why the registration is for one Administrative contact. There can be multiple admin-c. [frank at fisi ~]$ whois -h whois.afrinic.net -- -t organisation [Querying whois.afrinic.net] [whois.afrinic.net] % This is the AfriNIC Whois server. % The AFRINIC whois database is subject to the following terms of Use. See https://afrinic.net/whois/terms organisation: [mandatory] [single] [primary/lookup key] ..... admin-c: [optional] [multiple] [inverse key] # "multiple" tech-c: [optional] [multiple] [inverse key] example: [frank at fisi ~]$ whois -h whois.afrinic.net -- -T organisation -B -r ORG-WCL4-AFRINIC [Querying whois.afrinic.net] [whois.afrinic.net] % This is the AfriNIC Whois server. % The AFRINIC whois database is subject to the following terms of Use. See https://afrinic.net/whois/terms % Information related to 'ORG-WCL4-AFRINIC' organisation: ORG-WCL4-AFRINIC ..... admin-c: GM51-AFRINIC admin-c: WL8-AFRINIC admin-c: WCTT-AFRINIC tech-c: WL8-AFRINIC tech-c: WCTT-AFRINIC Frank From hjul.paul at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 06:26:47 2022 From: hjul.paul at gmail.com (Paul Hjul) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 08:26:47 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Formal objection to the notice of meeting issued for the AfriNIC Annual General Members meeting. Message-ID: Dear AfriNIC Board, Crystal Web (Pty) Ltd (hereafter referred to as "The Party") hereby raises formal objection to the notice of meeting issued for the AfriNIC Annual General Members meeting. The notice of meeting is deficient in that: a.) It does not include an ordinary resolution to adopt the financials as is required by clause 7.6.i of the bylaws b.) It does not include an ordinary resolution to appoint the auditors as required by clause 7.6.iv of the bylaws c.) The notice of meeting indicates the closure of an election which is never opened on the agenda d.) The organizers of the meeting are improperly and without cause restricting the right of corporate members to have present and participating (online) the representatives of the member - thereby explicitly precluding a member from having legal representation present during proceedings in which complex legal issues arise As such, while a representative of The Party will be present at the annual general members meeting, it is under protest as to the irregularity of the meeting and The Party gives no waiver as to the irregularities cited above. Regards, Paul Hjul Representative Crystal Web (Pty) Ltd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hjul.paul at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 10:07:15 2022 From: hjul.paul at gmail.com (Paul Hjul) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 12:07:15 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Binding Arbitration Message-ID: "Has anyone considered binding arbitration as a means to resolve these various controversies? It seems to me that that might be a more cost efficient, and almost certainly a more time-efficient manner of resolving a number of outstanding disputes that various parties have with AFRINIC at present. Andrew is right, of course, to lament the high costs of traditional legal actions. But in which instances has AFRINIC initiated those costly legal actions?" Um I've argued for Afrinic to commit to arbitration since the inception of the issues. Not sure when you joined team ADR. Complaining that you are being sued after you committed a tort is a bit rich. You are sounding like the whining American executives who are unhappy that Ford was slapped with an injunction in Germany after they refused to enter into FRAND licensing negotiations knowing full well that refusing to do so represents intending to infringe on patents. The party who acts wrongfully and who fails to remedy is responsible for the litigation that follows. Afrinic's board knowingly, maliciously and for an alterior motive moved to cancel a members membership. They did so without following any of the rules of natural justice. That is the inescapable and dispositive fact of this fiasco. The existence in the RSA of a dispute resolution clause is the best way to guard the organization moving forward and its absence means that even if the board were to grow up and stop delinquency they wouldn't be able to ensure that every dispute is now in arbitration. But that is hardly a reason not to do things correctly moving forward. Of course much of the litigation would become moot if the board would simply acknowledge the patently unlawful conduct it engaged in. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Thu Jun 2 11:01:26 2022 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 11:01:26 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Binding Arbitration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My issue here is ? I am not convinced that you can use arbitration to step around the law. When the companies act has rules ? you cannot use arbitration to violate the companies act. When the bylaws create rules ? and the company violates those rules ? arbitration to allow them to violate the rules ? also doesn?t make sense ? because it creates a situation where they can violate the rules for one company based on arbitration outcomes and then leave themselves to sitting in arbitration for everyone else. Arbitration works when it?s a dispute involving something specific to an entity ? it does not work when one of the entities is violating the companies act or the bylaws that affect all members. As for the question that was asked about if AfriNIC has ever initiated proceedings ? no ? not that I know of ? but ? what they have done is created the situations where members have felt no option but to take legal action. Members have a duty to protect themselves ? and when AfriNIC?s actions represent a threat to the interests of those members, and potentially in conflict with the law or the bylaws ? and AfriNIC point blank refuses to budge ? then they create an adversarial and litigious environment. A classic example of this is the AGMM tomorrow ? There are formal objections to the AGMM ? the companies act says one thing, the bylaws say something, and AfriNIC has a very simple option. Postpone the meeting, issue a rectified notice of meeting, and issue the resolutions in that notice of meeting that are required to be there. The meeting could then be held as an online only meeting in 4 to 6 weeks ? and there would be no objections anymore ? and all it would require is a slight delay that would not in reality hurt anything. Instead ? AfriNIC seems hell bent on pushing through and performing some truly amazing legal gymnastics to make text say things it doesn?t ? and thereby escalating an already tense situation rather than choosing to act in the best interests of the company and the members, avoid potential litigation and just accept the delay. Why are they choosing this route? No one really knows ? because it certainly would not actually affect anything in a material sense if they were to rectify the issues at hand ? but it seems that egos are winning out. I also point out that it was AfriNIC?s legal council ? who on video ? in front of an AGMM in Uganda ? said to the members ?If you don?t like it ? you have an option, the courts? ? effectively he said ?Don?t like it ? sue us? ? well ? members are now obliging ? what did they expect? Andrew From: Paul Hjul Sent: Thursday, June 2, 2022 1:07 PM To: community-discuss at afrinic.net Subject: [Community-Discuss] Binding Arbitration "Has anyone considered binding arbitration as a means to resolve these various controversies? It seems to me that that might be a more cost efficient, and almost certainly a more time-efficient manner of resolving a number of outstanding disputes that various parties have with AFRINIC at present. Andrew is right, of course, to lament the high costs of traditional legal actions. But in which instances has AFRINIC initiated those costly legal actions?" Um I've argued for Afrinic to commit to arbitration since the inception of the issues. Not sure when you joined team ADR. Complaining that you are being sued after you committed a tort is a bit rich. You are sounding like the whining American executives who are unhappy that Ford was slapped with an injunction in Germany after they refused to enter into FRAND licensing negotiations knowing full well that refusing to do so represents intending to infringe on patents. The party who acts wrongfully and who fails to remedy is responsible for the litigation that follows. Afrinic's board knowingly, maliciously and for an alterior motive moved to cancel a members membership. They did so without following any of the rules of natural justice. That is the inescapable and dispositive fact of this fiasco. The existence in the RSA of a dispute resolution clause is the best way to guard the organization moving forward and its absence means that even if the board were to grow up and stop delinquency they wouldn't be able to ensure that every dispute is now in arbitration. But that is hardly a reason not to do things correctly moving forward. Of course much of the litigation would become moot if the board would simply acknowledge the patently unlawful conduct it engaged in. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hortense.jongen at gu.se Thu Jun 2 11:04:42 2022 From: hortense.jongen at gu.se (Hortense Jongen) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 11:04:42 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Academic Study on the South-Based RIRs: AFRINIC, APNIC, and LACNIC Message-ID: VERSION FRAN?AISE DISPONIBLE PLUS BAS Dear AFRINIC Community, Greetings from the South-Based RIRs Legitimacy Project! We are an academic research project based at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden. The project studies attitudes toward AFRINIC, APNIC and LACNIC: how people's views vary and why. The findings can provide important suggestions for the RIRs' future development. Soon, we will be sending out invitations to a sample of community participants to do an interview with us. During the past days, project researchers Gloria Nzeka and Hortense Jongen have had the pleasure of meeting various AFRINIC community members at AIS'22 and informing them about the study. We would like to take this opportunity to inform the entire AFRINIC community about the research project. Please be assured that the project is entirely independent academic research. It is funded by the Swedish Research Council, a public body with no political affiliation or commercial interest. You may be aware that we recently completed a highly appreciated similar independent study on attitudes toward ICANN. Please do not hesitate to contact us with any questions or for more information. You can reach us via the chat function on the meeting platform or by email: Hortense.Jongen at gu.se and Gloria.Nzeka at gu.se Yours sincerely Dr. Hortense Jongen Project Coordinator Gloria Nzeka Project Researcher Professor Jan Aart Scholte Project Advisor Chers membres de la communaut? AFRINIC, Salutations de la part du Projet de L?gitimit? des RIRs bas?s au Sud. Nous sommes membres d'un projet de recherche acad?mique bas? ? l'Universit? de G?teborg en Su?de. Ce projet est une enqu?te sur les attitudes envers AFRINIC, APNIC et LACNIC. L'objectif est de comprendre comment et pourquoi les perceptions des gens divergent ? l'?gard des RIRs. Les r?sultats peuvent fournir des recommandations importantes pour le futur d?veloppement des RIRs. Nous allons bient?t envoyer des invitations ? un ?chantillon de participants qui pourront participer ? un entretien avec nous. Ces derniers jours, les chercheuses travaillant sur ce projet, Gloria Nzeka et Hortense Jongen, ont eu le plaisir de rencontrer divers membres de la communaut? AFRINIC ? AIS'22 et de les informer de l'?tude. Nous aimerions profiter de cette occasion pour informer l'ensemble de la communaut? AFRINIC de ce projet de recherche. Soyez assur?s que le projet est une recherche acad?mique enti?rement ind?pendante. Il est financ? par le Conseil Su?dois de la Recherche, un organisme public sans affiliation politique ni int?r?t commercial. Vous savez peut-?tre que nous avons r?cemment r?alis? une ?tude ind?pendante similaire tr?s appr?ci?e sur les attitudes envers ICANN. N'h?sitez pas ? nous contacter pour toute question ou pour obtenir de plus amples informations. Vous pouvez nous joindre ? travers la fonction chat de la plateforme de r?union Meetecho ou par courriel : Hortense.Jongen at gu.se et Gloria.Nzeka at gu.se. Nous vous prions d'agr?er l'expression de nos salutations distingu?es. Dr. Hortense Jongen Coordinatrice du projet Gloria Nzeka Chercheuse du projet Professeur Jan Aart Scholte Conseiller du projet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Thu Jun 2 16:16:30 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:16:30 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETIN?= =?utf-8?q?G_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: <1DBD0E32-B551-459B-9BE3-ED991137771F@delong.com> > On Jun 1, 2022, at 12:25 , Noah wrote: > > > > On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, 22:51 Ish Sookun, > wrote: > Hi Noah, > >> On 1 Jun 2022, at 22:22, Noah > wrote: >> >> Part of the above sentence reads ... >> >> appoint "A" representative?. > > I understand the ?A? and the second word is ?representative?. A representative can be a person or a group of persons. > > Hi Ish > > English is not my lingo as Swahili was my first language and primary language but I tend to think that the meaning changes depending on how words are contracted together. > > 1. A representative of.... > 2. Representatives of.... > 3. Representative > 4. Representatives... > > Do all the above have the same meaning. > It depends on the context, but certainly there is overlap of meaning amongst those terms. In the case of the bylaws, indeed, there is ambiguity (as is Ashok?s specialty) subject to interpretation of the meaning of ?A representative? in that context. In such a case of ambiguity, especially in a context where, as Andrew mentions, legal counsel being present to advise would be potentially important, ?A representative? should be construed to include whatever ?representative? the entity deems necessary to constitute ?a representative?, even if that includes a team of people. It would be legitimate to insist that only one of those members of the ?representative team? do the speaking and voting on behalf of the entire representative team, but limiting the online presence only to one representative per organization is unreasonable. Further, there is very long and well established precedence against such a restriction. Any change of such magnitude should certainly come with sufficient notice for the change to be considered, deliberated, and either agreed or rejected by the membership. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Thu Jun 2 16:23:49 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 09:23:49 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETIN?= =?utf-8?q?G_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: <82686.1654121670@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <82686.1654121670@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: > There are always other options. If not, then why does every country on earth > employ its own diplomatic corp? You are right? For example, the UA could have chosen to fight Mr. Putin as they have, or I suppose they could have allowed their country and culture to be destroyed and annexed into Russia as Mr. Putin desires. Most of the time when people say ?there was no choice?, they really do mean that the contrasting choices were so stark as to make one choice obvious vs. the other being completely unacceptable. > Andrew is right, of course, to lament the high costs of traditional legal actions. > But in which instances has AFRINIC initiated those costly legal actions? None, > I gather. It therefore seems rather disingenuous, from where I am sitting, for > anyone to bemoan these high costs if that party or parties are also associated > in any way with the genesis of any of the costly legal actions in question. So you suggest what alternative? In the face of the various gross misdeeds by the AFRINIC board, including their tampering in the election to avoid a free and fair election bringing forth candidates which would not necessarily support their continued corruption, what alternative other than litigation exists that would be equally palatable? Owen From abscoco at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 18:09:13 2022 From: abscoco at gmail.com (Sylvain Baya) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 19:09:13 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?_ATTENDANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_TH?= =?utf-8?q?E_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: <1DBD0E32-B551-459B-9BE3-ED991137771F@delong.com> References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> <1DBD0E32-B551-459B-9BE3-ED991137771F@delong.com> Message-ID: {remove members-discuss at afrinic.net} Dear AfriNIC's Community, Hope this email finds you in good health! Thanks to find my comments below, inline... Le jeudi 2 juin 2022, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> a ?crit : > > > On Jun 1, 2022, at 12:25 , Noah wrote: > > > > On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, 22:51 Ish Sookun, wrote: > >> Hi Noah, >> >> On 1 Jun 2022, at 22:22, Noah wrote: >> >> Part of the above sentence reads ... >> >> appoint "A" representative?. >> >> >> I understand the ?A? and the second word is ?representative?. A >> representative can be a person or a group of persons. >> > > Hi Ish > > English is not my lingo as Swahili was my first language and primary > language but I tend to think that the meaning changes depending on how > words are contracted together. > > 1. A representative of.... > 2. Representatives of.... > 3. Representative > 4. Representatives... > > Do all the above have the same meaning. > > > It depends on the context, but certainly there is overlap of meaning > amongst those terms. > > [...] > > In such a case of ambiguity, especially in a context where, as Andrew > mentions, legal counsel being present to advise would be potentially > important, ?A representative? should be construed to include whatever > ?representative? the entity deems necessary to constitute ?a > representative?, even if that includes a team of people. > > Hi Owen, Thanks for your email, brother. ...considering the very context, what's your understanding of the content of "a" here, please. Look! the sentence ends with a simple comparison; isn't that the key for a common understanding of the appropriate content of the word representative? In other words: find the way *a* proxy is designated, then you should be able to know more about the first *a*... Thanks once more! Shalom, --sb. > > It would be legitimate to insist that only one of those members of the > ?representative team? do the speaking and voting on behalf of the entire > representative team, but limiting the online presence only to one > representative per organization is unreasonable. > > Further, there is very long and well established precedence against such a > restriction. Any change of such magnitude should certainly come with > sufficient notice for the change to be considered, deliberated, and either > agreed or rejected by the membership. > > Owen > > -- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]| Subscribe to Mailing List: __ #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jun 2 19:08:32 2022 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2022 12:08:32 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Binding Arbitration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <90557.1654196912@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Paul Hjul wrote: >Afrinic's board knowingly, maliciously and for an alterior motive >moved to cancel a members membership. They did so without following >any of the rules of natural justice. I assume that you meant to say "ulterior motive". In any case both of the above two quoted sentences are assertions that I personally have not heard before... at least not stated in quite so concise and clear a manner. I have questions about both. First, what was this alleged "alterior[sp] motive", exactly? Second where may I find this postulated "natural justice" codified and who is the arbiter of that? Regards, rfg From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jun 2 19:46:10 2022 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2022 12:46:10 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Binding Arbitration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <90828.1654199170@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , Andrew Alston wrote: >As for the question that was asked about if AfriNIC has ever initiated >proceedings - no - not that I know of - but - what they have done is created >the situations where members have felt no option but to take legal action. Such as in the case of Netstyle.co.il, which elected to bring suit? (It is my hope and belief that most folks on this list will already know my personal opinions on THAT bit of litigation. Briiefly, it is my personal opinion that that litigation had, and has, no sound basis in either fact or law. Is is however, like the several other still pending legal actions, creating costs for AFRINIC and its members... pointlessly in my opinion.) >Members have a duty to protect themselves - and when AfriNIC's actions >represent a threat to the interests of those members, and potentially in >conflict with the law or the bylaws - and AfriNIC point blank refuses to budge >- then they create an adversarial and litigious environment. It is, I think, an arguable point as regards to which parties could be fairly said to have "created an adversarial and litigious environment." >A classic example of this is the AGMM tomorrow - There are formal objections to >the AGMM - the companies act says one thing, the bylaws say something, and >AfriNIC has a very simple option. Postpone the meeting, issue a rectified >notice of meeting, and issue the resolutions in that notice of meeting that are >required to be there. The meeting could then be held as an online only meeting >in 4 to 6 weeks - and there would be no objections anymore - and all it would >require is a slight delay that would not in reality hurt anything. Let me confess a few things before making my last point in response. First, for those not already aware, I am neither an African nor even an AFRINIC member. Also, I confess that for quite some time now my attentions have been elsewhere, and I have not followed in detail the often volumous traffic on this or any other AFRINIC mailing list to which the public has access. On the basis of these multiple facts, I should probably just shut up and butt out entirely, since these are all matters for the membership to resolve, but as I hope we all recognize, what goes on in Africa doesn't stay in Africa. It affects the whole planet. Now, that all having been said, and returning to the suggestion that the upcoming meeting be delayed... well, I personally have no opinion on that other than to offer the observation that maybe Andrew's assertion that a delay "would not in reality hurt anything" may be wrong. In my own country (USA) on the rather special date of January 6th, 2021, some insurrectionist elements of my own government are now known to have been scheming to delay the final phase of the selection of our new president, and NOT for any noble, well-founded, or good reason. Their hope was to delay the proceedings for a mere 10 days, during which, they believed, they could further their sordid and nefarious scheme to effectively take over the U.S. government by extra-legal means. Thankfully, that did not happen. If it had, then there may well have been a second civil war my this country. (And I can assure all here that I am NOT exaggerating on this point.) Again, I personally have no opinion on the exact timing of your next AGMM. I only offer the observation that it is not an unknown phenomenon that some parties may seek to delay official proceedings as part of a larger plan to throw a spanner into the works. I do not assert that this is Andrew's or anyone else's motive, only that it is a point to be considered with respect to the timing of the meeting. Regards, rfg From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Thu Jun 2 21:19:25 2022 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 21:19:25 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Binding Arbitration In-Reply-To: <90828.1654199170@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <90828.1654199170@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: Let me be very clear, The only objective I have is to see the board following the law - and being held accountable when they are not. The consequences of what happens when the board is allowed to make their own rules outside of the companies act and the bylaws are pretty apparent, and they aren't pretty. I do not believe that asking them to issue a proper notice of meeting is unreasonable. I do not believe that asking them to put resolutions on the notice of meeting as is required by the bylaws and the companies act is unreasonable. To be clear - the companies act - Section 115, clause 1.b states that the agmm must be held not later than 6 months after the balance sheet date of the company. This was temporarily extended due to covid, but that was retracted. However, that being said, the company has until the end of June to hold the meeting - ample time to issue a new notice of meeting. Considering that members can only realistically act at an annual general member meeting, again, I cannot in my mind see a way postponing the meeting will hurt anything, and will still meet the confines of the law. I question however any argument that says that it is ok to step outside of the companies act and the bylaws when there are clear options to stay within these things is ok. If we cannot hold ourselves to the rules that bind business in the country of domicile - we have bigger problems than the postponement of the annual general members meeting. Thanks Andrew From: Ronald F. Guilmette Sent: Thursday, June 2, 2022 10:46 PM Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Binding Arbitration In message >, Andrew Alston > wrote: >As for the question that was asked about if AfriNIC has ever initiated >proceedings - no - not that I know of - but - what they have done is created >the situations where members have felt no option but to take legal action. Such as in the case of Netstyle.co.il, which elected to bring suit? (It is my hope and belief that most folks on this list will already know my personal opinions on THAT bit of litigation. Briiefly, it is my personal opinion that that litigation had, and has, no sound basis in either fact or law. Is is however, like the several other still pending legal actions, creating costs for AFRINIC and its members... pointlessly in my opinion.) >Members have a duty to protect themselves - and when AfriNIC's actions >represent a threat to the interests of those members, and potentially in >conflict with the law or the bylaws - and AfriNIC point blank refuses to budge >- then they create an adversarial and litigious environment. It is, I think, an arguable point as regards to which parties could be fairly said to have "created an adversarial and litigious environment." >A classic example of this is the AGMM tomorrow - There are formal objections to >the AGMM - the companies act says one thing, the bylaws say something, and >AfriNIC has a very simple option. Postpone the meeting, issue a rectified >notice of meeting, and issue the resolutions in that notice of meeting that are >required to be there. The meeting could then be held as an online only meeting >in 4 to 6 weeks - and there would be no objections anymore - and all it would >require is a slight delay that would not in reality hurt anything. Let me confess a few things before making my last point in response. First, for those not already aware, I am neither an African nor even an AFRINIC member. Also, I confess that for quite some time now my attentions have been elsewhere, and I have not followed in detail the often volumous traffic on this or any other AFRINIC mailing list to which the public has access. On the basis of these multiple facts, I should probably just shut up and butt out entirely, since these are all matters for the membership to resolve, but as I hope we all recognize, what goes on in Africa doesn't stay in Africa. It affects the whole planet. Now, that all having been said, and returning to the suggestion that the upcoming meeting be delayed... well, I personally have no opinion on that other than to offer the observation that maybe Andrew's assertion that a delay "would not in reality hurt anything" may be wrong. In my own country (USA) on the rather special date of January 6th, 2021, some insurrectionist elements of my own government are now known to have been scheming to delay the final phase of the selection of our new president, and NOT for any noble, well-founded, or good reason. Their hope was to delay the proceedings for a mere 10 days, during which, they believed, they could further their sordid and nefarious scheme to effectively take over the U.S. government by extra-legal means. Thankfully, that did not happen. If it had, then there may well have been a second civil war my this country. (And I can assure all here that I am NOT exaggerating on this point.) Again, I personally have no opinion on the exact timing of your next AGMM. I only offer the observation that it is not an unknown phenomenon that some parties may seek to delay official proceedings as part of a larger plan to throw a spanner into the works. I do not assert that this is Andrew's or anyone else's motive, only that it is a point to be considered with respect to the timing of the meeting. Regards, rfg _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jun 2 23:01:18 2022 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2022 16:01:18 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <92227.1654210878@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , Owen DeLong wrote: >So you suggest what alternative? In the face of the various gross misdeeds by the >AFRINIC board, including their tampering in the election to avoid a free and fair >election... :-) Thanks for the laugh Owen! I needed that today. And I confess that your unique genius for comedy never ceases to astonish me. Where I come from "free and fair elections" normally do not involve stealthy backroom schemes to rig the outcome by buying votes. Regards, rfg From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Fri Jun 3 04:29:05 2022 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2022 04:29:05 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?windows-1252?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTEN?= =?windows-1252?q?DANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=92?= =?windows-1252?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: <92227.1654210878@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <92227.1654210878@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: No Ronald, They do however contain billions in dark money, massive amounts of shadowy lobby groups, the occasional invasion of a building, maybe a few people baying to hang someone, 846 (so far) arrests, a years worth of hearings.... need I go on? Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Ronald F. Guilmette Sent: Friday, June 3, 2022 2:01:18 AM To: AFRINIC Community Discuss Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] ATTENDANCE & PARTICIPATION AT THE ANNUAL GENERAL MEMBERS? MEETING (AGMM) In message , Owen DeLong wrote: >So you suggest what alternative? In the face of the various gross misdeeds by the >AFRINIC board, including their tampering in the election to avoid a free and fair >election... :-) Thanks for the laugh Owen! I needed that today. And I confess that your unique genius for comedy never ceases to astonish me. Where I come from "free and fair elections" normally do not involve stealthy backroom schemes to rig the outcome by buying votes. Regards, rfg _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Fri Jun 3 04:50:26 2022 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2022 21:50:26 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?windows-1252?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTEN?= =?windows-1252?q?DANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEM?= =?windows-1252?q?BERS=92_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <94227.1654231826@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , Andrew Alston wrote: >No Ronald, > > >They do however contain billions in dark money, massive amounts of shadowy >lobby groups, the occasional invasion of a building, maybe a few people baying >to hang someone, 846 (so far) arrests, a years worth of hearings.... need I go >on? > I gather that you are making reference to the 2020 election in the U.S. Please note that despite all of the crooked things that happened during that election, everything that happened has been and is being investigated. People have gone to jail and yet others will. My hope is that anyone and everyone connected with this AFRINIC vote buying scheme will likewise be investigated and jailed, where appropriate, but I'm not holding out too much hope of that, mostly due to the international and inter-jurisdictional nature of these sordid activities. Regards, rfg From ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu Fri Jun 3 06:20:23 2022 From: ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu (Ish Sookun) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2022 10:20:23 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETIN?= =?utf-8?q?G_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: <1DBD0E32-B551-459B-9BE3-ED991137771F@delong.com> References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> <1DBD0E32-B551-459B-9BE3-ED991137771F@delong.com> Message-ID: <41452A55-F570-47B1-B96F-006827365BA7@lasentinelle.mu> Hi Owen, > On 2 Jun 2022, at 20:16, Owen DeLong wrote: > > It would be legitimate to insist that only one of those members of the ?representative team? do the speaking and voting on behalf of the entire representative team, but limiting the online presence only to one representative per organization is unreasonable. > I will not support that only one person from the ?representative team? to do the speaking. Technical, legal and financials are three distinct subjects and I do not find it exaggerated if an organisation would like to have a three-member representative to speak on these subjects individually during the AGMM. > Further, there is very long and well established precedence against such a restriction. Any change of such magnitude should certainly come with sufficient notice for the change to be considered, deliberated, and either agreed or rejected by the membership. Yes, indeed. I agree with you. The online restriction should have been communicated to members much in advance. Those who oppose the restriction would get ample time to discuss with AFRINIC or seek appropriate advice. Regards, ??? Ish Sookun Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu Fri Jun 3 06:25:09 2022 From: ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu (Ish Sookun) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2022 10:25:09 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Raised concerns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B68C147-0DE0-42F6-9465-CFF7B92C8A8B@lasentinelle.mu> Dear Mr. Kayihura, > On 2 Jun 2022, at 19:38, Eddy Kayihura wrote: > > We addressed this by accommodating multiple representatives not exceeding 5 persons per organisation to follow the proceedings of the AGMM. However, to achieve this, we will require the names and individual email addresses of those intending to attend the meeting online. Kindly provide with those information so that we can arrange individual token to mailto:agmm2022 at afrinic.net Friday 3 June 2022 by 06:30 UTC. > Thank you for addressing the issue. It is much appreciated & kudos to the logistical/technical team. Regards, ??? Ish Sookun Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From hjul.paul at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 09:57:23 2022 From: hjul.paul at gmail.com (Paul Hjul) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2022 11:57:23 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_a_Special_General_Member?= =?utf-8?b?4oCZcyBNZWV0aW5n?= Message-ID: Hi all, A petition has reached critical mass to call an SGMM, hopefully the Board won't play pokey on this one. Dear Members, For your information, the members who signed the petitions have already discussed and thereafter informed the Board to call for the Special General Member?s Meeting as it is representing not less than 5% of the Resource Members as required by the bylaws. All related documents that were shared herein are sent to the Board and Chair as well for their reference and review. Please see the attached link below for the content of the petition ; https://www.nrs.help/petition Regards, Paul Hjul Member -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcurran at arin.net Fri Jun 3 12:51:19 2022 From: jcurran at arin.net (John Curran) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2022 12:51:19 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?NRS_Accountability_and_Transparency?= =?utf-8?q?_=28was=3A_Re=3A__Call_for_a_Special_General_Member=E2=80=99s_M?= =?utf-8?q?eeting=29?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51FF8286-549B-4744-AD71-EFAE54722157@arin.net> On 3 Jun 2022, at 5:57 AM, Paul Hjul > wrote: Hi all, A petition has reached critical mass to call an SGMM, hopefully the Board won't play pokey on this one. Dear Members, For your information, the members who signed the petitions have already discussed and thereafter informed the Board to call for the Special General Member?s Meeting as it is representing not less than 5% of the Resource Members as required by the bylaws. All related documents that were shared herein are sent to the Board and Chair as well for their reference and review. Please see the attached link below for the content of the petition ; https://www.nrs.help/petition Regards, Paul Hjul Member Paul - As this petition appears to be organized by the ?Number Resource Society? (NRS) ? a body which purports to hold core beliefs and values that include an Internet "that relies on a global free market and enterprise with excellent transparency and accountability? ? and further appears (if I understand the associated video on the NRS website promoting the petition) to be claiming the petition is necessary to improve accountability and transparency of the RIR system, it would probably be good if the NRS itself would provide a modicum of transparency in this process. To this end, could you explain the Governing Body and procedures of the NRS? I note that NRS Membership "Terms and Conditions? notes that admission is not open to all, but is subject to "acceptance of the Admission Committee?, but can find no reference to the process for seating or present composition of said Committee. From the Terms and Conditions it is also clear that the obligations of membership bind one to acting & voting "in line with the objective, mission, guide, instructions, and/or mandate of NRS and which include but are not limited to policy internet making and/or voting in line with the objectives of NRS with regard to freedom in accessing internet, internet stability, fair distribution of internet.?, but it is less so who exactly in the NRS make the determination of what particular votes (whether policy or election) would be in compliance with the ?objective, mission, guide, instructions, and/or mandate of NRS? ? this appears to be very important for one to have before signing away the ability to make independent judgement in such matters. It is strange that the NRS "shall have the absolute discretion to terminate the membership of a Member at any time with prior notice to the member without assigning any reason.? ? there seems to be a lack of due process here, and hence the governance provisions of the NRS would seem woefully lacking for a body that intends aid community representation. If you could elaborate on the above issues, that might allow others to understand how a body that purports to want to improve accountability can do so while lacking in community accountability itself. It is possible that I misunderstand its governance structures, so any insight that you (or others at the NRS) can provide might clarify things a bit? as it is, the NRS operates rather opaquely despite its purported lofty goals of excellent transparency and accountability. Thanks! /John John Curran President and CEO American Registry for Internet Numbers -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcurran at arin.net Fri Jun 3 13:33:37 2022 From: jcurran at arin.net (John Curran) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2022 13:33:37 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Visit AFRINIC member by NRS (Number Resource Society) In-Reply-To: <74622EE0-A260-4078-8569-876DF9E1152B@delong.com> References: <1876875408.3809.1652777759188.JavaMail.zimbra@irenala.edu.mg> <74622EE0-A260-4078-8569-876DF9E1152B@delong.com> Message-ID: On 20 May 2022, at 4:08 AM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: On May 20, 2022, at 00:51 , Ish Sookun > wrote: Hi Owen, On 20 May 2022, at 11:11, Owen DeLong > wrote: I have no affiliation or business with NRS whatsoever, but I will say that we do need to hold RIRs accountable when they are not properly serving the community. My question is not how do we hold the RIRs accountable. My question is how does the Number Resource Society hold the RIRs accountable? I will leave answering that question to them. Since I have no affiliation, I cannot usefully comment on what they will or will not do. Owen - Actually, you may have that backwards ? it appears that a membership ?affiliation? with the opaque NRS likely means that one cannot comment on these questions: From the NRS terms and conditions of membership ? vi. shall not undertake any action that could damage the reputation of NRS; vii. shall not make representations on behalf of NRS without prior approval in writing from NRS; and I.e., ?Members of the NRS" are actually prohibited from speaking about what the NRS is or how it functions ? this is a very challenging prohibition for a community-based body (i.e., compare/contrast to the RIRs where volunteers routinely present on behalf of the body, speak at other functions about RIR activities and developments, etc.) Since you?re not affiliated, you actually have freedom to opine here ? how do you see the governance provisions of the NRS being an improvement over AFRINIC?s existing provisions? As there is a distinct possibility raised by the NRS membership terms and conditions that it will provide instructions to NRS members regarding voting, how does that comport with the NRS claim of trying to improve ecosystem accountability and transparency in light of its own opacity? You?ve got experience in the RIR system and likely have more familiarity with the various players behind the NRS than many on this list, so it would seem quite reasonable to elaborate on such matters (so as to aid others in their understanding of the relatively strengths of the NRS governance structures being proposed as substitutes.) Thanks! /John John Curran President and CEO American Registry for Internet Numbers -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Sun Jun 5 21:21:41 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (CTO admin) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2022 22:21:41 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_Call_for_a_Sp?= =?utf-8?q?ecial_General_Member=E2=80=99s_Meeting?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So you are the spokes person for NRA now?! I object to sharing external links on the Member Discuss and call for the Moderator about this, as the link contains but the petition! Are you attempting to increase traffic to their website? Or marketing for their campaign? On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 10:15 PM Paul Hjul wrote: > Hi all, > > A petition has reached critical mass to call an SGMM, hopefully the Board > won't play pokey on this one. > > Dear Members, > > For your information, the members who signed the petitions have already > discussed and thereafter informed the Board to call for the Special General > Member?s Meeting as it is representing not less than 5% of the Resource > Members as required by the bylaws. All related documents that were shared > herein are sent to the Board and Chair as well for their reference and > review. > > Please see the attached link below for the content of the petition ; > https://www.nrs.help/petition > > Regards, > Paul Hjul > Member > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dndannang at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 21:25:38 2022 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 01:25:38 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_a_Special_General_Member?= =?utf-8?b?4oCZcyBNZWV0aW5n?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What is NRS? Is NRS an AFRINIC member? Where is it located? On Fri, Jun 3, 2022, 12:58 PM Paul Hjul wrote: > Hi all, > > A petition has reached critical mass to call an SGMM, hopefully the Board > won't play pokey on this one. > > Dear Members, > > For your information, the members who signed the petitions have already > discussed and thereafter informed the Board to call for the Special General > Member?s Meeting as it is representing not less than 5% of the Resource > Members as required by the bylaws. All related documents that were shared > herein are sent to the Board and Chair as well for their reference and > review. > > Please see the attached link below for the content of the petition ; > https://www.nrs.help/petition > > Regards, > Paul Hjul > Member > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dndannang at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 21:26:43 2022 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 01:26:43 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_Call_for_a_Sp?= =?utf-8?q?ecial_General_Member=E2=80=99s_Meeting?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: He could be an employee of NRS. Meanwhile I advise members to be aware of Spam communications on the mailing list. On Mon, Jun 6, 2022, 12:22 AM CTO admin wrote: > So you are the spokes person for NRA now?! > > I object to sharing external links on the Member Discuss and call for the > Moderator about this, as the link contains but the petition! Are you > attempting to increase traffic to their website? Or marketing for their > campaign? > > On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 10:15 PM Paul Hjul wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> A petition has reached critical mass to call an SGMM, hopefully the Board >> won't play pokey on this one. >> >> Dear Members, >> >> For your information, the members who signed the petitions have already >> discussed and thereafter informed the Board to call for the Special General >> Member?s Meeting as it is representing not less than 5% of the Resource >> Members as required by the bylaws. All related documents that were shared >> herein are sent to the Board and Chair as well for their reference and >> review. >> >> Please see the attached link below for the content of the petition ; >> https://www.nrs.help/petition >> >> Regards, >> Paul Hjul >> Member >> _______________________________________________ >> Members-Discuss mailing list >> Members-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Sun Jun 5 21:46:54 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 00:46:54 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_Call_for_a_Sp?= =?utf-8?q?ecial_General_Member=E2=80=99s_Meeting?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Folks, Dont waste your braincells on the pointless petition. You have better things to do I suppose. Noah On Mon, 6 Jun 2022, 00:32 DANIEL NANGHAKA, wrote: > He could be an employee of NRS. > Meanwhile I advise members to be aware of Spam communications on the > mailing list. > > > On Mon, Jun 6, 2022, 12:22 AM CTO admin wrote: > >> So you are the spokes person for NRA now?! >> >> I object to sharing external links on the Member Discuss and call for the >> Moderator about this, as the link contains but the petition! Are you >> attempting to increase traffic to their website? Or marketing for their >> campaign? >> >> On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 10:15 PM Paul Hjul wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> A petition has reached critical mass to call an SGMM, hopefully the >>> Board won't play pokey on this one. >>> >>> Dear Members, >>> >>> For your information, the members who signed the petitions have already >>> discussed and thereafter informed the Board to call for the Special General >>> Member?s Meeting as it is representing not less than 5% of the Resource >>> Members as required by the bylaws. All related documents that were shared >>> herein are sent to the Board and Chair as well for their reference and >>> review. >>> >>> Please see the attached link below for the content of the petition ; >>> https://www.nrs.help/petition >>> >>> Regards, >>> Paul Hjul >>> Member >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Members-Discuss mailing list >>> Members-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Sun Jun 5 21:49:49 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (CTO admin) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2022 22:49:49 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_Call_for_a_Sp?= =?utf-8?q?ecial_General_Member=E2=80=99s_Meeting?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have seen the show of muscles in the objections before the meeting only to be conceded after, what was the whole point other than distractions and spoiling the meeting? On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 10:47 PM Noah wrote: > Folks, > > Dont waste your braincells on the pointless petition. > > You have better things to do I suppose. > > Noah > > On Mon, 6 Jun 2022, 00:32 DANIEL NANGHAKA, wrote: > >> He could be an employee of NRS. >> Meanwhile I advise members to be aware of Spam communications on the >> mailing list. >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 6, 2022, 12:22 AM CTO admin wrote: >> >>> So you are the spokes person for NRA now?! >>> >>> I object to sharing external links on the Member Discuss and call for >>> the Moderator about this, as the link contains but the petition! Are you >>> attempting to increase traffic to their website? Or marketing for their >>> campaign? >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 10:15 PM Paul Hjul wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> A petition has reached critical mass to call an SGMM, hopefully the >>>> Board won't play pokey on this one. >>>> >>>> Dear Members, >>>> >>>> For your information, the members who signed the petitions have already >>>> discussed and thereafter informed the Board to call for the Special General >>>> Member?s Meeting as it is representing not less than 5% of the Resource >>>> Members as required by the bylaws. All related documents that were shared >>>> herein are sent to the Board and Chair as well for their reference and >>>> review. >>>> >>>> Please see the attached link below for the content of the petition ; >>>> https://www.nrs.help/petition >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Paul Hjul >>>> Member >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Members-Discuss mailing list >>>> Members-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Sun Jun 5 21:51:06 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (CTO admin) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2022 22:51:06 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_Call_for_a_Sp?= =?utf-8?q?ecial_General_Member=E2=80=99s_Meeting?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: But i stand with my Valid Objection and Call for the Moderator! On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 10:49 PM CTO admin wrote: > I have seen the show of muscles in the objections before the meeting only > to be conceded after, what was the whole point other than distractions and > spoiling the meeting? > > On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 10:47 PM Noah wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> Dont waste your braincells on the pointless petition. >> >> You have better things to do I suppose. >> >> Noah >> >> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022, 00:32 DANIEL NANGHAKA, wrote: >> >>> He could be an employee of NRS. >>> Meanwhile I advise members to be aware of Spam communications on the >>> mailing list. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 6, 2022, 12:22 AM CTO admin wrote: >>> >>>> So you are the spokes person for NRA now?! >>>> >>>> I object to sharing external links on the Member Discuss and call for >>>> the Moderator about this, as the link contains but the petition! Are you >>>> attempting to increase traffic to their website? Or marketing for their >>>> campaign? >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 10:15 PM Paul Hjul wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> A petition has reached critical mass to call an SGMM, hopefully the >>>>> Board won't play pokey on this one. >>>>> >>>>> Dear Members, >>>>> >>>>> For your information, the members who signed the petitions have >>>>> already discussed and thereafter informed the Board to call for the Special >>>>> General Member?s Meeting as it is representing not less than 5% of the >>>>> Resource Members as required by the bylaws. All related documents that were >>>>> shared herein are sent to the Board and Chair as well for their reference >>>>> and review. >>>>> >>>>> Please see the attached link below for the content of the petition ; >>>>> https://www.nrs.help/petition >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Paul Hjul >>>>> Member >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Members-Discuss mailing list >>>>> Members-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Sun Jun 5 22:03:32 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 01:03:32 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_Call_for_a_Sp?= =?utf-8?q?ecial_General_Member=E2=80=99s_Meeting?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Welcome to the AfriNIC AGMM. That comedy show was a continuation of the what we have become accustomed too and so to speak the Afrinic culture. Where folks will seek adjourment of an AGMM and yet go on to happily participate in the very AGMM they sought to adjourn. The confusion that was at display is nothing short of full scale display of bs and humberg. The petition you object too is another continuation of drama and confusion. Noah On Mon, 6 Jun 2022, 00:50 CTO admin, wrote: > I have seen the show of muscles in the objections before the meeting only > to be conceded after, what was the whole point other than distractions and > spoiling the meeting? > > On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 10:47 PM Noah wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> Dont waste your braincells on the pointless petition. >> >> You have better things to do I suppose. >> >> Noah >> >> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022, 00:32 DANIEL NANGHAKA, wrote: >> >>> He could be an employee of NRS. >>> Meanwhile I advise members to be aware of Spam communications on the >>> mailing list. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 6, 2022, 12:22 AM CTO admin wrote: >>> >>>> So you are the spokes person for NRA now?! >>>> >>>> I object to sharing external links on the Member Discuss and call for >>>> the Moderator about this, as the link contains but the petition! Are you >>>> attempting to increase traffic to their website? Or marketing for their >>>> campaign? >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 10:15 PM Paul Hjul wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> A petition has reached critical mass to call an SGMM, hopefully the >>>>> Board won't play pokey on this one. >>>>> >>>>> Dear Members, >>>>> >>>>> For your information, the members who signed the petitions have >>>>> already discussed and thereafter informed the Board to call for the Special >>>>> General Member?s Meeting as it is representing not less than 5% of the >>>>> Resource Members as required by the bylaws. All related documents that were >>>>> shared herein are sent to the Board and Chair as well for their reference >>>>> and review. >>>>> >>>>> Please see the attached link below for the content of the petition ; >>>>> https://www.nrs.help/petition >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Paul Hjul >>>>> Member >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Members-Discuss mailing list >>>>> Members-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Mon Jun 6 18:35:15 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 21:35:15 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Visit AFRINIC member by NRS (Number Resource Society) In-Reply-To: References: <1876875408.3809.1652777759188.JavaMail.zimbra@irenala.edu.mg> <74622EE0-A260-4078-8569-876DF9E1152B@delong.com> Message-ID: Dear John, Did Owen ever respond to your questions as I cant seem to find those answers in the archives unless he went off-list ? Noah On Fri, 3 Jun 2022, 16:38 John Curran, wrote: > > > On 20 May 2022, at 4:08 AM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > > On May 20, 2022, at 00:51 , Ish Sookun wrote: > > Hi Owen, > > On 20 May 2022, at 11:11, Owen DeLong wrote: > > I have no affiliation or business with NRS whatsoever, but I will say that > we do need to hold RIRs accountable when they are not properly serving the > community. > > > My question is not how do we hold the RIRs accountable. My question is how > does the Number Resource Society hold the RIRs accountable? > > > I will leave answering that question to them. Since I have no affiliation, > I cannot usefully comment on what they will or will not do. > > > Owen - > > Actually, you may have that backwards ? it appears that a membership > ?affiliation? with the opaque NRS likely means that one cannot comment on > these questions: > > From the NRS terms and conditions of membership < > https://www.nrs.help/terms-conditions> ? > > > * vi. shall not undertake any action that could > damage the reputation of NRS; vii. shall not make > representations on behalf of NRS without prior approval in writing from > NRS; and* > > I.e., ?Members of the NRS" are actually prohibited from speaking about > what the NRS is or how it functions ? this is a very challenging > prohibition for a community-based body (i.e., compare/contrast to the RIRs > where volunteers routinely present on behalf of the body, speak at other > functions about RIR activities and developments, etc.) > > Since you?re not affiliated, you actually have freedom to opine here ? how > do you see the governance provisions of the NRS being an improvement over > AFRINIC?s existing provisions? As there is a distinct possibility raised > by the NRS membership terms and conditions that it will provide > instructions to NRS members regarding voting, how does that comport with > the NRS claim of trying to improve ecosystem accountability and > transparency in light of its own opacity? > > You?ve got experience in the RIR system and likely have more familiarity > with the various players behind the NRS than many on this list, so it would > seem quite reasonable to elaborate on such matters (so as to aid others in > their understanding of the relatively strengths of the NRS governance > structures being proposed as substitutes.) > > Thanks! > /John > > John Curran > President and CEO > American Registry for Internet Numbers > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu Tue Jun 7 07:15:17 2022 From: ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu (Ish Sookun) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 11:15:17 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC Message-ID: Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari, I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively. I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the organisation through the rough waters. I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership. Regards, ??? Ish Sookun Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Tue Jun 7 07:50:18 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 10:50:18 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ish It was a pleasure to finally meet you in person during the AIS 2022. I would also like to follow up on you with congratulations to both Mr.Ben and Dr.Abdalla and wish them well in their new roles as the Org continues to navigate through rough times in recent years. I would like to also thank Former Chairman Mr Subramanian Moonesamy and Prof Habib Youssef former Vice-Chairman for their countless efforts and voluntary leadership in the past two years. Cheers Noah On Tue, 7 Jun 2022, 10:23 Ish Sookun, wrote: > Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari, > > I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and > Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively. > I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the > organisation through the rough waters. > > I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership. > > Regards, > > ??? > > Ish Sookun > > Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jun 7 18:25:02 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 11:25:02 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?ATTENDANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE?= =?utf-8?q?_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> <1DBD0E32-B551-459B-9BE3-ED991137771F@delong.com> Message-ID: <2B6F8A96-4186-41D2-A6DC-7A9EAB3E2D35@delong.com> IMHO, the term ?a representative? could refer to either a natural person representing a corporation, or a group of natural persons as a representative body. Given that in such ambiguities, it is generally taken to be the most liberal possible interpretation within reason, I would say the a group of natural persons as a representative body is valid in this context. Owen > On Jun 2, 2022, at 11:09 , Sylvain Baya wrote: > > {remove members-discuss at afrinic.net } > Dear AfriNIC's Community, > > Hope this email finds you in good health! > > Thanks to find my comments below, inline... > > Le jeudi 2 juin 2022, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > a ?crit : > > >> On Jun 1, 2022, at 12:25 , Noah > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, 22:51 Ish Sookun, > wrote: >> Hi Noah, >> >>> On 1 Jun 2022, at 22:22, Noah > wrote: >>> >>> Part of the above sentence reads ... >>> >>> appoint "A" representative?. >> >> I understand the ?A? and the second word is ?representative?. A representative can be a person or a group of persons. >> >> Hi Ish >> >> English is not my lingo as Swahili was my first language and primary language but I tend to think that the meaning changes depending on how words are contracted together. >> >> 1. A representative of.... >> 2. Representatives of.... >> 3. Representative >> 4. Representatives... >> >> Do all the above have the same meaning. >> > > It depends on the context, but certainly there is overlap of meaning amongst those terms. > > [...] > > In such a case of ambiguity, especially in a context where, as Andrew mentions, legal counsel being present to advise would be potentially important, ?A representative? should be construed to include whatever ?representative? the entity deems necessary to constitute ?a representative?, even if that includes a team of people. > > > > Hi Owen, > Thanks for your email, brother. > > ...considering the very context, what's your > understanding of the content of "a" here, please. > > Look! the sentence ends with a simple comparison; > isn't that the key for a common understanding of > the appropriate content of the word representative? > > In other words: find the way *a* proxy is designated, > then you should be able to know more about the > first *a*... > > Thanks once more! > > Shalom, > --sb. > > > > > It would be legitimate to insist that only one of those members of the ?representative team? do the speaking and voting on behalf of the entire representative team, but limiting the online presence only to one representative per organization is unreasonable. > > Further, there is very long and well established precedence against such a restriction. Any change of such magnitude should certainly come with sufficient notice for the change to be considered, deliberated, and either agreed or rejected by the membership. > > Owen > > > > -- > Best Regards ! > __ > baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]|> > Subscribe to Mailing List: > > __ > #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? > ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? > ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jun 7 18:41:49 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 11:41:49 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Binding Arbitration In-Reply-To: <90828.1654199170@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <90828.1654199170@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <04514415-1745-48EF-BF66-586389B4A49A@delong.com> > In my own country (USA) on the rather special date of January 6th, 2021, > some insurrectionist elements of my own government are now known to have > been scheming to delay the final phase of the selection of our new president, > and NOT for any noble, well-founded, or good reason. Their hope was to > delay the proceedings for a mere 10 days, during which, they believed, they > could further their sordid and nefarious scheme to effectively take over > the U.S. government by extra-legal means. Thankfully, that did not happen. > If it had, then there may well have been a second civil war my this country. > (And I can assure all here that I am NOT exaggerating on this point.) I will point out that none of the following applied to the January 6 situation: + AFRINIC malformed the notice of meeting according to both the bylaws and the companies act. + An injunction was issued against AFRINIC?s procedures and conduct in the process of electing directors which prevented board elections from being held at this AGMM even though it did proceed. (The election of directors is one of 3 primary purposes for the AGMM) + There was no attempt at organizational takeover by the sitting congress in an effort to contravene the electoral process by limiting the selection of candidates to those favorable to the current board at the time. (though admittedly some members of congress were trying other tactics to achieve that outcome). > Again, I personally have no opinion on the exact timing of your next AGMM. > I only offer the observation that it is not an unknown phenomenon that some > parties may seek to delay official proceedings as part of a larger plan to > throw a spanner into the works. I do not assert that this is Andrew's or > anyone else's motive, only that it is a point to be considered with respect > to the timing of the meeting. I suggest you review the bylaws, the companies act, and the notice of meeting and issue a revised opinion. I will point out that the conduct of this AGMM was highly contentious, violated the law by considering motions not properly included in the notice of meeting and ultimately failed to approve the financials, approve the selection of auditors, or elect board members, which are the three primary purposes of an AGMM. As such,I think we have observed a great deal of wheel spinning which only served to further wrap AFRINIC around the axle. The one apparently significant outcome of the AGMM being held relates strictly to section 13 of the bylaws in that the event of the AGMM occurring is a triggering event. Owen From noah at neo.co.tz Tue Jun 7 18:52:36 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 21:52:36 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?ATTENDANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE?= =?utf-8?q?_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: <2B6F8A96-4186-41D2-A6DC-7A9EAB3E2D35@delong.com> References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> <1DBD0E32-B551-459B-9BE3-ED991137771F@delong.com> <2B6F8A96-4186-41D2-A6DC-7A9EAB3E2D35@delong.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Jun 2022, 21:27 Owen DeLong, wrote: > IMHO, the term ?a representative? could refer to either a natural person > representing a corporation, > This is acceptable as the actual interpretation of "a representative". or a group of natural persons as a representative body. > You are misinterpretating things. My take is that a corporation will always be represented by a natural person as "a representative" and the corporation with more people will in most cases field an individual from the corporation whenever necessary to represent them since most corporations dont suffer from shortage of an individual rep. > Given that in such ambiguities, it is generally taken to be the most > liberal possible interpretation within reason, I would say the a group of > natural persons as a representative body is valid in this context. > No dude. English is confusing you now. Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jun 7 19:34:45 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 12:34:45 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETIN?= =?utf-8?q?G_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: <92227.1654210878@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <92227.1654210878@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <21A87C7E-FDD1-44DE-888A-BBE7FA2B5A78@delong.com> > On Jun 2, 2022, at 16:01 , Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > In message , > Owen DeLong wrote: > >> So you suggest what alternative? In the face of the various gross misdeeds by the >> AFRINIC board, including their tampering in the election to avoid a free and fair >> election... > > :-) > Thanks for the laugh Owen! I needed that today. And I confess that your > unique genius for comedy never ceases to astonish me. > > Where I come from "free and fair elections" normally do not involve stealthy > backroom schemes to rig the outcome by buying votes. Perhaps, but they also include a choice of candidates rather than appointment of a slate of limited candidates hand picked by the existing office holders. Owen From owen at delong.com Tue Jun 7 19:41:29 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 12:41:29 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETIN?= =?utf-8?q?G_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: <94227.1654231826@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <94227.1654231826@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 2, 2022, at 21:50 , Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > In message , > Andrew Alston wrote: > >> No Ronald, >> >> >> They do however contain billions in dark money, massive amounts of shadowy >> lobby groups, the occasional invasion of a building, maybe a few people baying >> to hang someone, 846 (so far) arrests, a years worth of hearings.... need I go >> on? >> > > I gather that you are making reference to the 2020 election in the U.S. The building invasion, arrests, etc. is unique to 2020. The billions in dark money, massive amounts of shadowy lobby groups, well, that?s pretty much par for the course in US federal elections and congress in general. > Please note that despite all of the crooked things that happened during > that election, everything that happened has been and is being investigated. > People have gone to jail and yet others will. Well? For some of the crooked things, yes. Everything, no, not everything is even being investigated. > My hope is that anyone and everyone connected with this AFRINIC vote buying > scheme will likewise be investigated and jailed, where appropriate, but I'm > not holding out too much hope of that, mostly due to the international and > inter-jurisdictional nature of these sordid activities. While I agree it probably SHOULD be illegal, as I understand it, what was done technically isn?t illegal. AIUI, they offered to invest in companies on the basis of their investment allowing them to determine how that company would vote in AFRINIC elections. Technically, that?s a level of corporate governance transaction that would be perfectly legal even in the USA. Again, I don?t know the details, but this is what I surmise from the video and from other comments I?ve seen on the lists. I had no involvement with or knowledge of any such scheme, and consider such a scheme extremely unethical and immoral even if it is perfectly legal. From my perspective, it?s not significantly different from an average day on K street. Highly immoral and unethical, but not technically illegal. Owen From owen at delong.com Tue Jun 7 19:44:03 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 12:44:03 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETIN?= =?utf-8?q?G_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: <41452A55-F570-47B1-B96F-006827365BA7@lasentinelle.mu> References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> <1DBD0E32-B551-459B-9BE3-ED991137771F@delong.com> <41452A55-F570-47B1-B96F-006827365BA7@lasentinelle.mu> Message-ID: > On Jun 2, 2022, at 23:20 , Ish Sookun wrote: > > Hi Owen, > >> On 2 Jun 2022, at 20:16, Owen DeLong > wrote: >> >> It would be legitimate to insist that only one of those members of the ?representative team? do the speaking and voting on behalf of the entire representative team, but limiting the online presence only to one representative per organization is unreasonable. >> > > I will not support that only one person from the ?representative team? to do the speaking. Technical, legal and financials are three distinct subjects and I do not find it exaggerated if an organisation would like to have a three-member representative to speak on these subjects individually during the AGMM. If you have a group representative, it should speak with one voice. They may discuss amongst themselves what that one voice will say, but there should be a designated spokesman. Anything else is an opportunity for either chaos or overrepresentation. > >> Further, there is very long and well established precedence against such a restriction. Any change of such magnitude should certainly come with sufficient notice for the change to be considered, deliberated, and either agreed or rejected by the membership. > > Yes, indeed. I agree with you. The online restriction should have been communicated to members much in advance. Those who oppose the restriction would get ample time to discuss with AFRINIC or seek appropriate advice. Or even obtain the injunctions necessary to get a court ruling on the matter prior to allowing the meeting to proceed in such a way. Almost certainly, the short notice of this change was a deliberate act by the board to pervert the course of justice. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From abscoco at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 19:51:39 2022 From: abscoco at gmail.com (Sylvain Baya) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 20:51:39 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?_ATTENDANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_TH?= =?utf-8?q?E_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: <2B6F8A96-4186-41D2-A6DC-7A9EAB3E2D35@delong.com> References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> <1DBD0E32-B551-459B-9BE3-ED991137771F@delong.com> <2B6F8A96-4186-41D2-A6DC-7A9EAB3E2D35@delong.com> Message-ID: Dear PDWG, Hope this email finds you in good health! Please see my comments below, inline... Le mardi 7 juin 2022, Owen DeLong a ?crit : > IMHO, the term ?a representative? could refer to either a natural person > representing a corporation, or a group of natural persons as a > representative body. > > Hi Owen, Thanks for your email, brother! Please add the comparison effect, before jumping to a conclusion :-) > > > Given that in such ambiguities, it is generally taken to be the most > liberal possible interpretation within reason, I would say the a group of > natural persons as a representative body is valid in this context. > > Again! i couldn't agree more, due to the presence of the other part of that very sentence; you seem to neglect :-/ ...as the comparison is obvious, let me ask you to answer, first, few simple questions: Q1| How many proxies a resource member (RM) can designate? Q2| Is it possible that RM has *a* group of proxies? Q3| if the answer of Q2| is yes, then; what is the max number of proxies for such a group of? Q4| i understand it's not sufficient to a resource member to being represented by only one person, then; which provision in both the AfriNIC's Bylaws and/or the MU's Company Act (2001) allow it to be more than only one's personal expectation? Hope this clarifies something! Shalom, --sb. > > > > Owen > > > On Jun 2, 2022, at 11:09 , Sylvain Baya wrote: > > {remove members-discuss at afrinic.net} > Dear AfriNIC's Community, > > Hope this email finds you in good health! > > Thanks to find my comments below, inline... > > Le jeudi 2 juin 2022, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> a ?crit : > >> >> >> On Jun 1, 2022, at 12:25 , Noah wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, 22:51 Ish Sookun, wrote: >> >>> Hi Noah, >>> >>> On 1 Jun 2022, at 22:22, Noah wrote: >>> >>> Part of the above sentence reads ... >>> >>> appoint "A" representative?. >>> >>> >>> I understand the ?A? and the second word is ?representative?. A >>> representative can be a person or a group of persons. >>> >> >> Hi Ish >> >> English is not my lingo as Swahili was my first language and primary >> language but I tend to think that the meaning changes depending on how >> words are contracted together. >> >> 1. A representative of.... >> 2. Representatives of.... >> 3. Representative >> 4. Representatives... >> >> Do all the above have the same meaning. >> >> >> It depends on the context, but certainly there is overlap of meaning >> amongst those terms. >> >> [...] >> >> In such a case of ambiguity, especially in a context where, as Andrew >> mentions, legal counsel being present to advise would be potentially >> important, ?A representative? should be construed to include whatever >> ?representative? the entity deems necessary to constitute ?a >> representative?, even if that includes a team of people. >> >> > > Hi Owen, > Thanks for your email, brother. > > ...considering the very context, what's your > understanding of the content of "a" here, please. > > Look! the sentence ends with a simple comparison; > isn't that the key for a common understanding of > the appropriate content of the word representative? > > In other words: find the way *a* proxy is designated, > then you should be able to know more about the > first *a*... > > Thanks once more! > > Shalom, > --sb. > > > >> >> It would be legitimate to insist that only one of those members of the >> ?representative team? do the speaking and voting on behalf of the entire >> representative team, but limiting the online presence only to one >> representative per organization is unreasonable. >> >> Further, there is very long and well established precedence against such >> a restriction. Any change of such magnitude should certainly come with >> sufficient notice for the change to be considered, deliberated, and either >> agreed or rejected by the membership. >> >> Owen >> >> > [...] > > > -- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]| Subscribe to Mailing List: __ #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From abscoco at gmail.com Tue Jun 7 20:07:24 2022 From: abscoco at gmail.com (Sylvain Baya) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 21:07:24 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?_ATTENDANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_TH?= =?utf-8?q?E_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> <1DBD0E32-B551-459B-9BE3-ED991137771F@delong.com> <41452A55-F570-47B1-B96F-006827365BA7@lasentinelle.mu> Message-ID: Dear AfriNIC's Community, Hope this email finds you in good health! Please my comments below, inline... Le mardi 7 juin 2022, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> a ?crit : > > > On Jun 2, 2022, at 23:20 , Ish Sookun wrote: > > Hi Owen, > > On 2 Jun 2022, at 20:16, Owen DeLong wrote: > > It would be legitimate to insist that only one of those members of the > ?representative team? do the speaking and voting on behalf of the entire > representative team, but limiting the online presence only to one > representative per organization is unreasonable. > > > I will not support that only one person from the ?representative team? to > do the speaking. Technical, legal and financials are three distinct > subjects and I do not find it exaggerated if an organisation would like to > have a three-member representative to speak on these subjects individually > during the AGMM. > > > If you have a group representative, it should speak with one voice. They > may discuss amongst themselves what that one voice will say, but there > should be a designated spokesman. > > Thanks for your email, Owen, Brother, imho, for that to become a right for each AfriNIC's Resource Member (RM), you may need first to follow the available steps to request an amendment to the current version of the AfriNIC's Bylaws. > > > > Anything else is an opportunity for either chaos or overrepresentation. > > A chaos, due to what please? Shalom, --sb. > [...] > > > Owen > > -- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]| Subscribe to Mailing List: __ #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mirriamlauren at yahoo.com Tue Jun 7 20:17:34 2022 From: mirriamlauren at yahoo.com (Mirriam) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 20:17:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?ATTENDANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE?= =?utf-8?q?_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> <1DBD0E32-B551-459B-9BE3-ED991137771F@delong.com> <2B6F8A96-4186-41D2-A6DC-7A9EAB3E2D35@delong.com> Message-ID: <1624456179.345508.1654633054958@mail.yahoo.com> Hello Sylvain, You raise very interesting perspectives on this dialogue of what "a representative" means. While following the AGMM online, I noted that Andrew from Liquid was speaking on behalf of so many other entities. My assumption is that he was the single representative of all those organisations or the proxy appointed as a representative of the said organisations. Would it be safe to assert that in that case, Andrew was a representative of all those Liquid group of companies? Mirriam Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 10:51 PM, Sylvain Baya wrote: _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jun 7 20:58:08 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 13:58:08 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_a_Special_General_Member?= =?utf-8?b?4oCZcyBNZWV0aW5n?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F3F8EC8-62C9-479E-904D-1F54985385DE@delong.com> What board? There is no quorum to begin a board meeting at this point. Owen > On Jun 3, 2022, at 02:57 , Paul Hjul wrote: > > Hi all, > > A petition has reached critical mass to call an SGMM, hopefully the Board won't play pokey on this one. > > Dear Members, > > For your information, the members who signed the petitions have already discussed and thereafter informed the Board to call for the Special General Member?s Meeting as it is representing not less than 5% of the Resource Members as required by the bylaws. All related documents that were shared herein are sent to the Board and Chair as well for their reference and review. > > Please see the attached link below for the content of the petition ; > https://www.nrs.help/petition > > Regards, > Paul Hjul > Member > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jun 7 21:32:10 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 14:32:10 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Visit AFRINIC member by NRS (Number Resource Society) In-Reply-To: References: <1876875408.3809.1652777759188.JavaMail.zimbra@irenala.edu.mg> <74622EE0-A260-4078-8569-876DF9E1152B@delong.com> Message-ID: <93AC041C-08C0-4C1D-89D2-C22B73820DD0@delong.com> > On Jun 3, 2022, at 06:33 , John Curran wrote: > > > >> On 20 May 2022, at 4:08 AM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: >> >>> On May 20, 2022, at 00:51 , Ish Sookun > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Owen, >>> >>>> On 20 May 2022, at 11:11, Owen DeLong > wrote: >>>> >>>> I have no affiliation or business with NRS whatsoever, but I will say that we do need to hold RIRs accountable when they are not properly serving the community. >>> >>> My question is not how do we hold the RIRs accountable. My question is how does the Number Resource Society hold the RIRs accountable? >> >> I will leave answering that question to them. Since I have no affiliation, I cannot usefully comment on what they will or will not do. > > Owen - > > Actually, you may have that backwards ? it appears that a membership ?affiliation? with the opaque NRS likely means that one cannot comment on these questions: > > From the NRS terms and conditions of membership > ? > > vi. shall not undertake any action that could damage the reputation of NRS; > vii. shall not make representations on behalf of NRS without prior approval in writing from NRS; and > > I.e., ?Members of the NRS" are actually prohibited from speaking about what the NRS is or how it functions ? this is a very challenging prohibition for a community-based body (i.e., compare/contrast to the RIRs where volunteers routinely present on behalf of the body, speak at other functions about RIR activities and developments, etc.) > > Since you?re not affiliated, you actually have freedom to opine here ? how do you see the governance provisions of the NRS being an improvement over AFRINIC?s existing provisions? As there is a distinct possibility raised by the NRS membership terms and conditions that it will provide instructions to NRS members regarding voting, how does that comport with the NRS claim of trying to improve ecosystem accountability and transparency in light of its own opacity? I?m free to opine, sure, but since I honestly don?t know, I?m not sure how useful any opinion I might offer would be. I?m not a fan of the NRS and I deplore the video on the main site. > You?ve got experience in the RIR system and likely have more familiarity with the various players behind the NRS than many on this list, so it would seem quite reasonable to elaborate on such matters (so as to aid others in their understanding of the relatively strengths of the NRS governance structures being proposed as substitutes.) I?ve made the decision to avoid any involvement with the NRS. Others re free to decide as they wish. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jun 7 21:54:52 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 14:54:52 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How did the board hold a meeting given that they cannot field a quorum after the AGMM? Owen > On Jun 7, 2022, at 00:15 , Ish Sookun wrote: > > Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari, > > I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively. > I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the organisation through the rough waters. > > I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership. > > Regards, > > ??? > > Ish Sookun > > Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss From owen at delong.com Tue Jun 7 22:16:35 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 15:16:35 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?ATTENDANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE?= =?utf-8?q?_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> <1DBD0E32-B551-459B-9BE3-ED991137771F@delong.com> <41452A55-F570-47B1-B96F-006827365BA7@lasentinelle.mu> Message-ID: <5A4C2EEA-09C8-4C8C-9CB6-7E5AF33372E5@delong.com> > On Jun 7, 2022, at 13:07 , Sylvain Baya wrote: > > Dear AfriNIC's Community, > > Hope this email finds you in good health! > Please my comments below, inline... > > Le mardi 7 juin 2022, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > a ?crit : > > >> On Jun 2, 2022, at 23:20 , Ish Sookun > wrote: >> >> Hi Owen, >> >>> On 2 Jun 2022, at 20:16, Owen DeLong > wrote: >>> >>> It would be legitimate to insist that only one of those members of the ?representative team? do the speaking and voting on behalf of the entire representative team, but limiting the online presence only to one representative per organization is unreasonable. >>> >> >> I will not support that only one person from the ?representative team? to do the speaking. Technical, legal and financials are three distinct subjects and I do not find it exaggerated if an organisation would like to have a three-member representative to speak on these subjects individually during the AGMM. > > If you have a group representative, it should speak with one voice. They may discuss amongst themselves what that one voice will say, but there should be a designated spokesman. > > > Thanks for your email, Owen, > > Brother, imho, for that to become a right for each > AfriNIC's Resource Member (RM), you may need first to follow the available steps to request an > amendment to the current version of the AfriNIC's > Bylaws. No, I think that is a valid interpretation of the current bylaws as they exist. > > > > > > Anything else is an opportunity for either chaos or overrepresentation. > > > > A chaos, due to what please? If you have a team representative, and they are all allowed to speak as said representative, you either get overrepresented by having multiple voices or you get chaos because it becomes difficult for the body at large to determine which of the voices actually represents the organization at any particular moment in time. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jun 7 22:28:19 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 15:28:19 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?ATTENDANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE?= =?utf-8?q?_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> <1DBD0E32-B551-459B-9BE3-ED991137771F@delong.com> <2B6F8A96-4186-41D2-A6DC-7A9EAB3E2D35@delong.com> Message-ID: Since section 12.12 of the bylaws is silent on the issue of whether a proxy is required to be a natural person, then yes, in theory, a body could be a valid proxy. Still any such body would only be entitled to one vote on any matter for which said proxy was appointed, so it would still require that proxy to effectively speak with one voice regardless of the number of natural persons comprising said proxy. Q1: A RM can appoint one proxy, regardless of the number of natural persons comprising said proxy. Q2: No, a RM cannot have a group of proxies, but they could appoint an entity consisting of multiple natural persons as a proxy as I read the bylaws. Q3: One proxy. There is no apparent limit to the number of natural persons who may comprise the entity appointed as proxy, however. Q4: Section 12.12 of the bylaws governs the appointment of proxies. It does not preclude the appointment of an entity consisting of multiple natural persons as a proxy. Owen > On Jun 7, 2022, at 12:51 , Sylvain Baya wrote: > > Dear PDWG, > Hope this email finds you in good health! > > Please see my comments below, inline... > > Le mardi 7 juin 2022, Owen DeLong > a ?crit : > IMHO, the term ?a representative? could refer to either a natural person representing a corporation, or a group of natural persons as a representative body. > > > > Hi Owen, > Thanks for your email, brother! > Please add the comparison effect, before jumping > to a conclusion :-) > > > > > Given that in such ambiguities, it is generally taken to be the most liberal possible interpretation within reason, I would say the a group of natural persons as a representative body is valid in this context. > > > > Again! i couldn't agree more, due to the presence > of the other part of that very sentence; you seem > to neglect :-/ > > ...as the comparison is obvious, let me ask you to > answer, first, few simple questions: > > Q1| How many proxies a resource member (RM) > can designate? > > Q2| Is it possible that RM has *a* group of proxies? > > Q3| if the answer of Q2| is yes, then; what is the > max number of proxies for such a group of? > > Q4| i understand it's not sufficient to a resource > member to being represented by only one person, > then; which provision in both the AfriNIC's Bylaws > and/or the MU's Company Act (2001) allow it to > be more than only one's personal expectation? > > > Hope this clarifies something! > > Shalom, > --sb. > > > > > > Owen > > >> On Jun 2, 2022, at 11:09 , Sylvain Baya > wrote: >> >> {remove members-discuss at afrinic.net } >> Dear AfriNIC's Community, >> >> Hope this email finds you in good health! >> >> Thanks to find my comments below, inline... >> >> Le jeudi 2 juin 2022, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > a ?crit : >> >> >>> On Jun 1, 2022, at 12:25 , Noah > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, 22:51 Ish Sookun, > wrote: >>> Hi Noah, >>> >>>> On 1 Jun 2022, at 22:22, Noah > wrote: >>>> >>>> Part of the above sentence reads ... >>>> >>>> appoint "A" representative?. >>> >>> I understand the ?A? and the second word is ?representative?. A representative can be a person or a group of persons. >>> >>> Hi Ish >>> >>> English is not my lingo as Swahili was my first language and primary language but I tend to think that the meaning changes depending on how words are contracted together. >>> >>> 1. A representative of.... >>> 2. Representatives of.... >>> 3. Representative >>> 4. Representatives... >>> >>> Do all the above have the same meaning. >>> >> >> It depends on the context, but certainly there is overlap of meaning amongst those terms. >> >> [...] >> >> In such a case of ambiguity, especially in a context where, as Andrew mentions, legal counsel being present to advise would be potentially important, ?A representative? should be construed to include whatever ?representative? the entity deems necessary to constitute ?a representative?, even if that includes a team of people. >> >> >> >> Hi Owen, >> Thanks for your email, brother. >> >> ...considering the very context, what's your >> understanding of the content of "a" here, please. >> >> Look! the sentence ends with a simple comparison; >> isn't that the key for a common understanding of >> the appropriate content of the word representative? >> >> In other words: find the way *a* proxy is designated, >> then you should be able to know more about the >> first *a*... >> >> Thanks once more! >> >> Shalom, >> --sb. >> >> >> >> >> It would be legitimate to insist that only one of those members of the ?representative team? do the speaking and voting on behalf of the entire representative team, but limiting the online presence only to one representative per organization is unreasonable. >> >> Further, there is very long and well established precedence against such a restriction. Any change of such magnitude should certainly come with sufficient notice for the change to be considered, deliberated, and either agreed or rejected by the membership. >> >> Owen >> >> >> [...] >> > > > > -- > Best Regards ! > __ > baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]|> > Subscribe to Mailing List: > > __ > #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? > ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? > ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Wed Jun 8 00:03:26 2022 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2022 17:03:26 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <37747.1654646606@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , Owen DeLong wrote: >Again, I don't know the details, but this is what I surmise from >the video and from other comments I've seen on the lists. I had >no involvement with or knowledge of any such scheme, and consider such a >scheme extremely unethical and immoral even if it is perfectly legal. But in your view, these activities and the company that undertook them are not -sufficiently- unethical and immoral to prevent you from cashing any more checks from that company, yes? Regards, rfg From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Wed Jun 8 04:19:04 2022 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 04:19:04 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?ATTENDANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE?= =?utf-8?q?_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> <1DBD0E32-B551-459B-9BE3-ED991137771F@delong.com> <2B6F8A96-4186-41D2-A6DC-7A9EAB3E2D35@delong.com> Message-ID: In regards to the below thread - let me point out that at the agmm - the entire board was on stage. When questions were asked of the board - they were deferred to the individual best positioned to answer them (or best positioned to avoid answering them - take your pick) Effectively - the board had 9 "representatives" on the stage - and the chairs of finco and auditco etc dealt with different aspects. A similar situation can and should exist with members - a member may have different people who are separately qualified to ask questions about specific knowledge domains. This is especially important considering that some questions may require clarification after being asked - as an example please see the clarifications requested of me by the chair of I believe the auditco in the meeting. This can someone require specialized knowledge to provide those clarifications - hence an organization needing multiple representatives in the same way the board needs multiple people on stage. Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 1:28:19 AM To: Sylvain Baya Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] ATTENDANCE & PARTICIPATION AT THE ANNUAL GENERAL MEMBERS? MEETING (AGMM) Since section 12.12 of the bylaws is silent on the issue of whether a proxy is required to be a natural person, then yes, in theory, a body could be a valid proxy. Still any such body would only be entitled to one vote on any matter for which said proxy was appointed, so it would still require that proxy to effectively speak with one voice regardless of the number of natural persons comprising said proxy. Q1: A RM can appoint one proxy, regardless of the number of natural persons comprising said proxy. Q2: No, a RM cannot have a group of proxies, but they could appoint an entity consisting of multiple natural persons as a proxy as I read the bylaws. Q3: One proxy. There is no apparent limit to the number of natural persons who may comprise the entity appointed as proxy, however. Q4: Section 12.12 of the bylaws governs the appointment of proxies. It does not preclude the appointment of an entity consisting of multiple natural persons as a proxy. Owen On Jun 7, 2022, at 12:51 , Sylvain Baya > wrote: Dear PDWG, Hope this email finds you in good health! Please see my comments below, inline... Le mardi 7 juin 2022, Owen DeLong > a ?crit : IMHO, the term ?a representative? could refer to either a natural person representing a corporation, or a group of natural persons as a representative body. Hi Owen, Thanks for your email, brother! Please add the comparison effect, before jumping to a conclusion :-) Given that in such ambiguities, it is generally taken to be the most liberal possible interpretation within reason, I would say the a group of natural persons as a representative body is valid in this context. Again! i couldn't agree more, due to the presence of the other part of that very sentence; you seem to neglect :-/ ...as the comparison is obvious, let me ask you to answer, first, few simple questions: Q1| How many proxies a resource member (RM) can designate? Q2| Is it possible that RM has *a* group of proxies? Q3| if the answer of Q2| is yes, then; what is the max number of proxies for such a group of? Q4| i understand it's not sufficient to a resource member to being represented by only one person, then; which provision in both the AfriNIC's Bylaws and/or the MU's Company Act (2001) allow it to be more than only one's personal expectation? Hope this clarifies something! Shalom, --sb. Owen On Jun 2, 2022, at 11:09 , Sylvain Baya > wrote: {remove members-discuss at afrinic.net} Dear AfriNIC's Community, Hope this email finds you in good health! Thanks to find my comments below, inline... Le jeudi 2 juin 2022, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > a ?crit : On Jun 1, 2022, at 12:25 , Noah > wrote: On Wed, 1 Jun 2022, 22:51 Ish Sookun, > wrote: Hi Noah, On 1 Jun 2022, at 22:22, Noah > wrote: Part of the above sentence reads ... appoint "A" representative?. I understand the ?A? and the second word is ?representative?. A representative can be a person or a group of persons. Hi Ish English is not my lingo as Swahili was my first language and primary language but I tend to think that the meaning changes depending on how words are contracted together. 1. A representative of.... 2. Representatives of.... 3. Representative 4. Representatives... Do all the above have the same meaning. It depends on the context, but certainly there is overlap of meaning amongst those terms. [...] In such a case of ambiguity, especially in a context where, as Andrew mentions, legal counsel being present to advise would be potentially important, ?A representative? should be construed to include whatever ?representative? the entity deems necessary to constitute ?a representative?, even if that includes a team of people. Hi Owen, Thanks for your email, brother. ...considering the very context, what's your understanding of the content of "a" here, please. Look! the sentence ends with a simple comparison; isn't that the key for a common understanding of the appropriate content of the word representative? In other words: find the way *a* proxy is designated, then you should be able to know more about the first *a*... Thanks once more! Shalom, --sb. It would be legitimate to insist that only one of those members of the ?representative team? do the speaking and voting on behalf of the entire representative team, but limiting the online presence only to one representative per organization is unreasonable. Further, there is very long and well established precedence against such a restriction. Any change of such magnitude should certainly come with sufficient notice for the change to be considered, deliberated, and either agreed or rejected by the membership. Owen [...] -- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]|> Subscribe to Mailing List: > __ #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Wed Jun 8 04:29:04 2022 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 04:29:04 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?windows-1252?q?ATTENDANCE_=26_PARTICIPATION?= =?windows-1252?q?_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=92_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: <1624456179.345508.1654633054958@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2188581d0db74f1f840933bebd57bda2@afrinic.net> <5C1CF62B-3EAD-4B58-9603-D20C17DAC94D@lasentinelle.mu> <7F7DF995-9CEA-49A3-9FD5-F0A77671ED26@afrinic.net> <1DBD0E32-B551-459B-9BE3-ED991137771F@delong.com> <2B6F8A96-4186-41D2-A6DC-7A9EAB3E2D35@delong.com> <1624456179.345508.1654633054958@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Consider it like this - In a corporate - there is a thing called a delegation of authority. Multiple individuals may have delegated authority to do a single task. For example, if you look at the board resolution that sets up the AfriNIC reserve fund - there is delegation of authority to access that account granted to the chair of the board, the vice chair of the board and the ceo. It requires a minimum of two of those individuals to sign - but does not require all three. The admin contact of an organization has a defacto delegation of authority from the companies they speak for to vote and to speak at an agmm on behalf of that entity. There may be multiple individuals holding such delegation of authority in a specific corporate entity. An individual person may also have delegation of authority as an admin contact for multiple organizations. A good example of this would be that an individual could for example own multiple distinct companies - and would be entitled to interact on behalf of all of those entities. Imagine Elon Musk showed up and Space-X and Tesla were both AfriNIC members - he would be able to speak on behalf of both. Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Mirriam via Community-Discuss Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2022 11:17:34 PM To: abscoco at gmail.com ; Owen DeLong ; General Discussions of AFRINIC Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] ATTENDANCE & PARTICIPATION AT THE ANNUAL GENERAL MEMBERS? MEETING (AGMM) Hello Sylvain, You raise very interesting perspectives on this dialogue of what "a representative" means. While following the AGMM online, I noted that Andrew from Liquid was speaking on behalf of so many other entities. My assumption is that he was the single representative of all those organisations or the proxy appointed as a representative of the said organisations. Would it be safe to assert that in that case, Andrew was a representative of all those Liquid group of companies? Mirriam Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 10:51 PM, Sylvain Baya wrote: _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Wed Jun 8 04:36:59 2022 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 04:36:59 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Owen, Well - it depends. If a non-quorate meeting was called and then adjourned for 24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the bylaws. The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it is open to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that quorum cannot be there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum - thereby deliberately exploiting a loophole. It is one thing to call a meeting thinking you would have quorum - not getting it - adjourning for 24 hours and then gaining quorum after giving notice to the absent directors. It is another thing entirely to call a meeting knowing full well quorum could not be met and having no one to give notice to. Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called - adjourned 24 hours - and then reconvened to be quorate. This would have to be minuted. The board has been silent on if this process was followed despite members asking the question. Once again we face a situation where this organization is not answering legitimate questions from its members - and to me that is even more troublesome than the quorum issue. Furthermore - last I checked the board of directors page online had updated the chair and vice chair but was still showing the old directors listed as current - why has that not been updated to show the vacant seats accordingly Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 12:54:52 AM To: Ish Sookun Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC Discuss Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC How did the board hold a meeting given that they cannot field a quorum after the AGMM? Owen > On Jun 7, 2022, at 00:15 , Ish Sookun wrote: > > Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari, > > I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively. > I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the organisation through the rough waters. > > I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership. > > Regards, > > ??? > > Ish Sookun > > Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mje at posix.co.za Wed Jun 8 10:07:48 2022 From: mje at posix.co.za (Mark Elkins) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 12:07:48 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28502d79-d18c-c0ee-118f-28bd2d01aecc@posix.co.za> Just so that people are clear... Page 30 of the AfriNIC Bylaws.... image cut from the PDF. Thus if there are at least three Board Members, if one leaves the room - the last two can call a meeting, see that there is no quorum, send notice to the third, adjourn the meeting and then after at least 24 hours, conduct a meeting in quorum assuming then that there are at least three Board members. If this happens - it must be minuted. On 6/8/22 6:36 AM, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote: > Hi Owen, > > Well - it depends. ?If a non-quorate meeting was called and then > adjourned for 24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the > bylaws. > > The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it > is open to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that > quorum cannot be there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum > - thereby deliberately exploiting a loophole. ?It is one thing to call > a meeting thinking you would have quorum - not getting it - adjourning > for 24 hours and then gaining quorum after giving notice to the absent > directors. ?It is another thing entirely to call a meeting knowing > full well quorum could not be met and having no one to give notice to. > > Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called - > adjourned 24 hours - and then reconvened to be quorate. ?This would > have to be minuted. ?The board has been silent on if this process was > followed despite members asking the question. ?Once again we face a > situation where this organization is not answering legitimate > questions from its members - and to me that is even more troublesome > than the quorum issue. > > Furthermore - last I checked the board of directors page online had > updated the chair and vice chair but was still showing the old > directors listed as current - why has that not been updated to show > the vacant seats accordingly > > Andrew > > Get Outlook for iOS > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 8, 2022 12:54:52 AM > *To:* Ish Sookun > *Cc:* AFRINIC Community Discuss ; > AfriNIC Discuss > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & > Vice-Chair of AFRINIC > How did the board hold a meeting given that they cannot field a quorum > after the AGMM? > > Owen > > > > On Jun 7, 2022, at 00:15 , Ish Sookun > wrote: > > > > Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari, > > > > I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and > Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively. > > I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the > organisation through the rough waters. > > > > I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership. > > > > Regards, > > > > ??? > > > > Ish Sookun > > > > Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Community-Discuss mailing list > > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- Mark James ELKINS? -? Posix Systems - (South) Africa mje at posix.co.za?????? Tel: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za Posix SystemsVCARD for MJ Elkins -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pkcdmnnpjmlgmagg.png Type: image/png Size: 40750 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: abessive_logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6410 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: QR-MJElkins.png Type: image/png Size: 2163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Wed Jun 8 10:38:49 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 13:38:49 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <28502d79-d18c-c0ee-118f-28bd2d01aecc@posix.co.za> References: <28502d79-d18c-c0ee-118f-28bd2d01aecc@posix.co.za> Message-ID: Hi Mark This is exactly what I was educating someone on a separate thread on members list but it seems we are a point where throwing shades at the board at any chance some folks get, is a thing now. Noah On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:16 Mark Elkins, wrote: > Just so that people are clear... Page 30 of the AfriNIC Bylaws.... image > cut from the PDF. > > Thus if there are at least three Board Members, if one leaves the room - > the last two can call a meeting, see that there is no quorum, send notice > to the third, adjourn the meeting and then after at least 24 hours, conduct > a meeting in quorum assuming then that there are at least three Board > members. If this happens - it must be minuted. > On 6/8/22 6:36 AM, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote: > > Hi Owen, > > Well - it depends. If a non-quorate meeting was called and then adjourned > for 24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the bylaws. > > The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it is > open to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that quorum > cannot be there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum - thereby > deliberately exploiting a loophole. It is one thing to call a meeting > thinking you would have quorum - not getting it - adjourning for 24 hours > and then gaining quorum after giving notice to the absent directors. It is > another thing entirely to call a meeting knowing full well quorum could not > be met and having no one to give notice to. > > Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called - > adjourned 24 hours - and then reconvened to be quorate. This would have to > be minuted. The board has been silent on if this process was followed > despite members asking the question. Once again we face a situation where > this organization is not answering legitimate questions from its members - > and to me that is even more troublesome than the quorum issue. > > Furthermore - last I checked the board of directors page online had > updated the chair and vice chair but was still showing the old directors > listed as current - why has that not been updated to show the vacant seats > accordingly > > Andrew > > Get Outlook for iOS > ------------------------------ > *From:* Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 8, 2022 12:54:52 AM > *To:* Ish Sookun > *Cc:* AFRINIC Community Discuss > ; AfriNIC Discuss > > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & > Vice-Chair of AFRINIC > > How did the board hold a meeting given that they cannot field a quorum > after the AGMM? > > Owen > > > > On Jun 7, 2022, at 00:15 , Ish Sookun > wrote: > > > > Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari, > > > > I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and > Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively. > > I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the > organisation through the rough waters. > > > > I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership. > > > > Regards, > > > > ??? > > > > Ish Sookun > > > > Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Community-Discuss mailing list > > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing listCommunity-Discuss at afrinic.nethttps://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > -- > > Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa > mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 <+27826010496> > For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za > > [image: Posix Systems][image: VCARD for MJ Elkins] > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pkcdmnnpjmlgmagg.png Type: image/png Size: 40750 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Wed Jun 8 10:48:46 2022 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 10:48:46 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <28502d79-d18c-c0ee-118f-28bd2d01aecc@posix.co.za> Message-ID: On the contrary Noah, No one is ?throwing shade? ? we are asking the board to confirm that the process was correctly followed. Which, considering the events of the AGMM and the blatant violations of the bylaws that occurred there ? is a very fair question to ask. And ? if you dispute there were blatant violations of the bylaws in the context of the AGMM ? Please, let me know ? I will quote you chapter and verse as to exactly where they happened. Andrew From: Noah Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 1:39 PM To: Mark Elkins Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC Discuss ; Owen DeLong Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC Hi Mark This is exactly what I was educating someone on a separate thread on members list but it seems we are a point where throwing shades at the board at any chance some folks get, is a thing now. Noah On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:16 Mark Elkins, > wrote: Just so that people are clear... Page 30 of the AfriNIC Bylaws.... image cut from the PDF. [cid:part1.994D76BD.619C6FA4 at posix.co.za] Thus if there are at least three Board Members, if one leaves the room - the last two can call a meeting, see that there is no quorum, send notice to the third, adjourn the meeting and then after at least 24 hours, conduct a meeting in quorum assuming then that there are at least three Board members. If this happens - it must be minuted. On 6/8/22 6:36 AM, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote: Hi Owen, Well - it depends. If a non-quorate meeting was called and then adjourned for 24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the bylaws. The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it is open to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that quorum cannot be there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum - thereby deliberately exploiting a loophole. It is one thing to call a meeting thinking you would have quorum - not getting it - adjourning for 24 hours and then gaining quorum after giving notice to the absent directors. It is another thing entirely to call a meeting knowing full well quorum could not be met and having no one to give notice to. Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called - adjourned 24 hours - and then reconvened to be quorate. This would have to be minuted. The board has been silent on if this process was followed despite members asking the question. Once again we face a situation where this organization is not answering legitimate questions from its members - and to me that is even more troublesome than the quorum issue. Furthermore - last I checked the board of directors page online had updated the chair and vice chair but was still showing the old directors listed as current - why has that not been updated to show the vacant seats accordingly Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 12:54:52 AM To: Ish Sookun Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC Discuss Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC How did the board hold a meeting given that they cannot field a quorum after the AGMM? Owen > On Jun 7, 2022, at 00:15 , Ish Sookun wrote: > > Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari, > > I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively. > I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the organisation through the rough waters. > > I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership. > > Regards, > > ??? > > Ish Sookun > > Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za [Posix Systems][VCARD for MJ Elkins] _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Wed Jun 8 10:56:34 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 13:56:34 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <28502d79-d18c-c0ee-118f-28bd2d01aecc@posix.co.za> Message-ID: Andrew, On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:48 Andrew Alston, wrote: > On the contrary Noah, > > > > No one is ?throwing shade? ? we are asking the board to confirm that the > process was correctly followed. Which, considering the events of the AGMM > and the blatant violations of the bylaws that occurred there ? is a very > fair question to ask. > I am certain the CEO and the board have read your fair questions and without doubt they shall respond, however, the claims of lack of quorum by some is what I was referring to in respect to the bylaws which I attempted to explain and Mark Elkins did us a service to paste the said section for the doubtful thomas's among us. > > > And ? if you dispute there were blatant violations of the bylaws in the > context of the AGMM ? Please, let me know ? I will quote you chapter and > verse as to exactly where they happened. > This is something else, so let us not mix things up. Noah > > > Andrew > > > > > > *From:* Noah > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 8, 2022 1:39 PM > *To:* Mark Elkins > *Cc:* AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC > Discuss ; Owen DeLong > *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to > the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC > > > > Hi Mark > > > > This is exactly what I was educating someone on a separate thread on > members list but it seems we are a point where throwing shades at the board > at any chance some folks get, is a thing now. > > > > Noah > > On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:16 Mark Elkins, wrote: > > Just so that people are clear... Page 30 of the AfriNIC Bylaws.... image > cut from the PDF. > > Thus if there are at least three Board Members, if one leaves the room - > the last two can call a meeting, see that there is no quorum, send notice > to the third, adjourn the meeting and then after at least 24 hours, conduct > a meeting in quorum assuming then that there are at least three Board > members. If this happens - it must be minuted. > > On 6/8/22 6:36 AM, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote: > > Hi Owen, > > > > Well - it depends. If a non-quorate meeting was called and then adjourned > for 24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the bylaws. > > > > The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it is > open to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that quorum > cannot be there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum - thereby > deliberately exploiting a loophole. It is one thing to call a meeting > thinking you would have quorum - not getting it - adjourning for 24 hours > and then gaining quorum after giving notice to the absent directors. It is > another thing entirely to call a meeting knowing full well quorum could not > be met and having no one to give notice to. > > > > Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called - > adjourned 24 hours - and then reconvened to be quorate. This would have to > be minuted. The board has been silent on if this process was followed > despite members asking the question. Once again we face a situation where > this organization is not answering legitimate questions from its members - > and to me that is even more troublesome than the quorum issue. > > > > Furthermore - last I checked the board of directors page online had > updated the chair and vice chair but was still showing the old directors > listed as current - why has that not been updated to show the vacant seats > accordingly > > > > Andrew > > > > Get Outlook for iOS > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 8, 2022 12:54:52 AM > *To:* Ish Sookun > *Cc:* AFRINIC Community Discuss > ; AfriNIC Discuss > > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & > Vice-Chair of AFRINIC > > > > How did the board hold a meeting given that they cannot field a quorum > after the AGMM? > > Owen > > > > On Jun 7, 2022, at 00:15 , Ish Sookun > wrote: > > > > Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari, > > > > I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and > Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively. > > I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the > organisation through the rough waters. > > > > I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership. > > > > Regards, > > > > ??? > > > > Ish Sookun > > > > Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Community-Discuss mailing list > > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Community-Discuss mailing list > > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > -- > > Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa > mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 <+27826010496> > For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za > > [image: Posix Systems][image: VCARD for MJ Elkins] > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eddy at afrinic.net Wed Jun 8 11:08:49 2022 From: eddy at afrinic.net (Eddy Kayihura) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 13:08:49 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8BD4A5C9-08E5-47C0-B522-E43518CD6D01@afrinic.net> Dear All, The process was followed as per the bylaws provisions. Regards, Eddy > On 8 Jun 2022, at 12:57, Noah wrote: > > ? > Andrew, > >> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:48 Andrew Alston, wrote: >> On the contrary Noah, >> >> >> >> No one is ?throwing shade? ? we are asking the board to confirm that the process was correctly followed. Which, considering the events of the AGMM and the blatant violations of the bylaws that occurred there ? is a very fair question to ask. >> > > > I am certain the CEO and the board have read your fair questions and without doubt they shall respond, however, the claims of lack of quorum by some is what I was referring to in respect to the bylaws which I attempted to explain and Mark Elkins did us a service to paste the said section for the doubtful thomas's among us. >> >> >> And ? if you dispute there were blatant violations of the bylaws in the context of the AGMM ? Please, let me know ? I will quote you chapter and verse as to exactly where they happened. >> > > > This is something else, so let us not mix things up. > > Noah >> >> >> Andrew >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Noah >> Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 1:39 PM >> To: Mark Elkins >> Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC Discuss ; Owen DeLong >> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC >> >> >> >> Hi Mark >> >> >> >> This is exactly what I was educating someone on a separate thread on members list but it seems we are a point where throwing shades at the board at any chance some folks get, is a thing now. >> >> >> >> Noah >> >> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:16 Mark Elkins, wrote: >> >> Just so that people are clear... Page 30 of the AfriNIC Bylaws.... image cut from the PDF. >> >> >> >> Thus if there are at least three Board Members, if one leaves the room - the last two can call a meeting, see that there is no quorum, send notice to the third, adjourn the meeting and then after at least 24 hours, conduct a meeting in quorum assuming then that there are at least three Board members. If this happens - it must be minuted. >> >> On 6/8/22 6:36 AM, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote: >> >> Hi Owen, >> >> >> >> Well - it depends. If a non-quorate meeting was called and then adjourned for 24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the bylaws. >> >> >> >> The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it is open to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that quorum cannot be there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum - thereby deliberately exploiting a loophole. It is one thing to call a meeting thinking you would have quorum - not getting it - adjourning for 24 hours and then gaining quorum after giving notice to the absent directors. It is another thing entirely to call a meeting knowing full well quorum could not be met and having no one to give notice to. >> >> >> >> Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called - adjourned 24 hours - and then reconvened to be quorate. This would have to be minuted. The board has been silent on if this process was followed despite members asking the question. Once again we face a situation where this organization is not answering legitimate questions from its members - and to me that is even more troublesome than the quorum issue. >> >> >> >> Furthermore - last I checked the board of directors page online had updated the chair and vice chair but was still showing the old directors listed as current - why has that not been updated to show the vacant seats accordingly >> >> >> >> Andrew >> >> >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> >> From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss >> Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 12:54:52 AM >> To: Ish Sookun >> Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC Discuss >> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC >> >> >> >> How did the board hold a meeting given that they cannot field a quorum after the AGMM? >> >> Owen >> >> >> > On Jun 7, 2022, at 00:15 , Ish Sookun wrote: >> > >> > Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari, >> > >> > I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively. >> > I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the organisation through the rough waters. >> > >> > I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > ??? >> > >> > Ish Sookun >> > >> > Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Community-Discuss mailing list >> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> -- >> >> Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa >> mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 >> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Wed Jun 8 11:12:31 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 14:12:31 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <8BD4A5C9-08E5-47C0-B522-E43518CD6D01@afrinic.net> References: <8BD4A5C9-08E5-47C0-B522-E43518CD6D01@afrinic.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 14:09 Eddy Kayihura, wrote: > Dear All, > > The process was followed as per the bylaws provisions. > > Regards, > > Eddy > I thought so.... I rest my case. Thank you Eddy. Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robertford2 at icloud.com Wed Jun 8 11:14:44 2022 From: robertford2 at icloud.com (robert ford) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 14:14:44 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <8BD4A5C9-08E5-47C0-B522-E43518CD6D01@afrinic.net> References: <8BD4A5C9-08E5-47C0-B522-E43518CD6D01@afrinic.net> Message-ID: <8539302E-787E-45DB-83F2-AED6A6B52FBD@icloud.com> Thank you CEO Eddy, I agree with you and so are other reasonable members of this community. There will always be dissatisfied members but this community shall always strive to move on and at the right side of the law. Thank you for your hard work and dedication. Regards Robert Ford Independent ICT Consultant EAC ONA & Tech Investments +250 788504406 Twitter: @robertnford Skype: robert4dd Sent from my MacBook Air 13? > On 8 Jun 2022, at 14:08, Eddy Kayihura > wrote: > > Dear All, > > The process was followed as per the bylaws provisions. > > Regards, > > Eddy > >> On 8 Jun 2022, at 12:57, Noah > wrote: >> >> ? >> Andrew, >> >> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:48 Andrew Alston, > wrote: >> On the contrary Noah, >> >> >> >> No one is ?throwing shade? ? we are asking the board to confirm that the process was correctly followed. Which, considering the events of the AGMM and the blatant violations of the bylaws that occurred there ? is a very fair question to ask. >> >> >> I am certain the CEO and the board have read your fair questions and without doubt they shall respond, however, the claims of lack of quorum by some is what I was referring to in respect to the bylaws which I attempted to explain and Mark Elkins did us a service to paste the said section for the doubtful thomas's among us. >> >> >> And ? if you dispute there were blatant violations of the bylaws in the context of the AGMM ? Please, let me know ? I will quote you chapter and verse as to exactly where they happened. >> >> >> This is something else, so let us not mix things up. >> >> Noah >> >> >> Andrew >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Noah > >> Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 1:39 PM >> To: Mark Elkins > >> Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss >; AfriNIC Discuss >; Owen DeLong > >> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC >> >> >> >> Hi Mark >> >> >> >> This is exactly what I was educating someone on a separate thread on members list but it seems we are a point where throwing shades at the board at any chance some folks get, is a thing now. >> >> >> >> Noah >> >> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:16 Mark Elkins, > wrote: >> >> Just so that people are clear... Page 30 of the AfriNIC Bylaws.... image cut from the PDF. >> >> >> >> Thus if there are at least three Board Members, if one leaves the room - the last two can call a meeting, see that there is no quorum, send notice to the third, adjourn the meeting and then after at least 24 hours, conduct a meeting in quorum assuming then that there are at least three Board members. If this happens - it must be minuted. >> >> On 6/8/22 6:36 AM, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote: >> >> Hi Owen, >> >> >> >> Well - it depends. If a non-quorate meeting was called and then adjourned for 24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the bylaws. >> >> >> >> The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it is open to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that quorum cannot be there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum - thereby deliberately exploiting a loophole. It is one thing to call a meeting thinking you would have quorum - not getting it - adjourning for 24 hours and then gaining quorum after giving notice to the absent directors. It is another thing entirely to call a meeting knowing full well quorum could not be met and having no one to give notice to. >> >> >> >> Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called - adjourned 24 hours - and then reconvened to be quorate. This would have to be minuted. The board has been silent on if this process was followed despite members asking the question. Once again we face a situation where this organization is not answering legitimate questions from its members - and to me that is even more troublesome than the quorum issue. >> >> >> >> Furthermore - last I checked the board of directors page online had updated the chair and vice chair but was still showing the old directors listed as current - why has that not been updated to show the vacant seats accordingly >> >> >> >> Andrew >> >> >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss >> Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 12:54:52 AM >> To: Ish Sookun >> Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC Discuss >> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC >> >> >> >> How did the board hold a meeting given that they cannot field a quorum after the AGMM? >> >> Owen >> >> >> > On Jun 7, 2022, at 00:15 , Ish Sookun wrote: >> > >> > Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari, >> > >> > I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively. >> > I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the organisation through the rough waters. >> > >> > I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > ??? >> > >> > Ish Sookun >> > >> > Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Community-Discuss mailing list >> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> -- >> >> Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa >> mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 >> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ >> Members-Discuss mailing list >> Members-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Wed Jun 8 11:15:37 2022 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 11:15:37 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <28502d79-d18c-c0ee-118f-28bd2d01aecc@posix.co.za> Message-ID: Sorry, but I must disagree that it is something else. As I stated to someone ? there was a time when people stepped outside of the bylaws that on minor issues it would be overlooked ? but the time has come and gone when there can be no more affordances granted ? because the boards actions have placed the members in a position where now, every action will be questioned to be sure it is in line with the bylaws to the letter. I point out that the website itself was updated with the new chair and vice chair ? yet it also still shows the other directors as current ? they aren?t. Despite an update having been done to that page that updates the chair and vice chair. I point out that the extension of term for the vice chair was disputed ? and the board minutes clearly show that it was disputed ? and also clearly indicate that there were conflicting legal opinions about if it was even legal to do what the board did in extending that term ? and now ? despite that ? the board went and made him vice chair against a resolution that is, at best, legally dubious since it is an open question if he is still legally a director ? and I suspect that will be heard in court once the issue of the election challenges is heard properly. So yes ? people are asking questions ? and not without cause ? questions that every member has a right to ? and probably should ? be asking at every stage. Andrew From: Noah Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 1:57 PM To: Andrew Alston Cc: Mark Elkins ; AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC Discuss ; Owen DeLong Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC Andrew, On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:48 Andrew Alston, > wrote: On the contrary Noah, No one is ?throwing shade? ? we are asking the board to confirm that the process was correctly followed. Which, considering the events of the AGMM and the blatant violations of the bylaws that occurred there ? is a very fair question to ask. I am certain the CEO and the board have read your fair questions and without doubt they shall respond, however, the claims of lack of quorum by some is what I was referring to in respect to the bylaws which I attempted to explain and Mark Elkins did us a service to paste the said section for the doubtful thomas's among us. And ? if you dispute there were blatant violations of the bylaws in the context of the AGMM ? Please, let me know ? I will quote you chapter and verse as to exactly where they happened. This is something else, so let us not mix things up. Noah Andrew From: Noah > Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 1:39 PM To: Mark Elkins > Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss >; AfriNIC Discuss >; Owen DeLong > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC Hi Mark This is exactly what I was educating someone on a separate thread on members list but it seems we are a point where throwing shades at the board at any chance some folks get, is a thing now. Noah On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:16 Mark Elkins, > wrote: Just so that people are clear... Page 30 of the AfriNIC Bylaws.... image cut from the PDF. Thus if there are at least three Board Members, if one leaves the room - the last two can call a meeting, see that there is no quorum, send notice to the third, adjourn the meeting and then after at least 24 hours, conduct a meeting in quorum assuming then that there are at least three Board members. If this happens - it must be minuted. On 6/8/22 6:36 AM, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote: Hi Owen, Well - it depends. If a non-quorate meeting was called and then adjourned for 24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the bylaws. The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it is open to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that quorum cannot be there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum - thereby deliberately exploiting a loophole. It is one thing to call a meeting thinking you would have quorum - not getting it - adjourning for 24 hours and then gaining quorum after giving notice to the absent directors. It is another thing entirely to call a meeting knowing full well quorum could not be met and having no one to give notice to. Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called - adjourned 24 hours - and then reconvened to be quorate. This would have to be minuted. The board has been silent on if this process was followed despite members asking the question. Once again we face a situation where this organization is not answering legitimate questions from its members - and to me that is even more troublesome than the quorum issue. Furthermore - last I checked the board of directors page online had updated the chair and vice chair but was still showing the old directors listed as current - why has that not been updated to show the vacant seats accordingly Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 12:54:52 AM To: Ish Sookun Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC Discuss Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC How did the board hold a meeting given that they cannot field a quorum after the AGMM? Owen > On Jun 7, 2022, at 00:15 , Ish Sookun wrote: > > Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari, > > I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively. > I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the organisation through the rough waters. > > I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership. > > Regards, > > ??? > > Ish Sookun > > Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Wed Jun 8 15:30:52 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 08:30:52 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETIN?= =?utf-8?q?G_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: <37747.1654646606@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <37747.1654646606@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 7, 2022, at 17:03 , Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > In message , > Owen DeLong wrote: > >> Again, I don't know the details, but this is what I surmise from >> the video and from other comments I've seen on the lists. I had >> no involvement with or knowledge of any such scheme, and consider such a >> scheme extremely unethical and immoral even if it is perfectly legal. > > But in your view, these activities and the company that undertook them > are not -sufficiently- unethical and immoral to prevent you from cashing > any more checks from that company, yes? I have no affiliation with NRS and have not taken any money from them, so your insinuation is out of line here. Owen From jnoulaye at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 17:28:01 2022 From: jnoulaye at gmail.com (Janvier NGNOULAYE) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 18:28:01 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <8BD4A5C9-08E5-47C0-B522-E43518CD6D01@afrinic.net> References: <8BD4A5C9-08E5-47C0-B522-E43518CD6D01@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Thank you dear CEO Eddy for the clarifications. I would like to join others with congratulations to both Mr. Ben & Dr. Abdalla, and wish them success and great courage in their new roles of Chair and vice-chair respectively, in this space which tends to become a zero-tolerance and zero-trust system. I also extend thanks to the former Chair and vice-chair for their hard and voluntary work in a difficult context in leadership over the past two years. Warm regards, Janvier Ngnoulaye University of Yaounde 1 Le mer. 8 juin 2022 ? 12:09, Eddy Kayihura a ?crit : > Dear All, > > The process was followed as per the bylaws provisions. > > Regards, > > Eddy > > On 8 Jun 2022, at 12:57, Noah wrote: > > ? > Andrew, > > On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:48 Andrew Alston, > wrote: > >> On the contrary Noah, >> >> >> >> No one is ?throwing shade? ? we are asking the board to confirm that the >> process was correctly followed. Which, considering the events of the AGMM >> and the blatant violations of the bylaws that occurred there ? is a very >> fair question to ask. >> > > I am certain the CEO and the board have read your fair questions and > without doubt they shall respond, however, the claims of lack of quorum by > some is what I was referring to in respect to the bylaws which I attempted > to explain and Mark Elkins did us a service to paste the said section for > the doubtful thomas's among us. > >> >> >> And ? if you dispute there were blatant violations of the bylaws in the >> context of the AGMM ? Please, let me know ? I will quote you chapter and >> verse as to exactly where they happened. >> > > This is something else, so let us not mix things up. > > Noah > >> >> >> Andrew >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Noah >> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 8, 2022 1:39 PM >> *To:* Mark Elkins >> *Cc:* AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC >> Discuss ; Owen DeLong >> *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to >> the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC >> >> >> >> Hi Mark >> >> >> >> This is exactly what I was educating someone on a separate thread on >> members list but it seems we are a point where throwing shades at the board >> at any chance some folks get, is a thing now. >> >> >> >> Noah >> >> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 13:16 Mark Elkins, wrote: >> >> Just so that people are clear... Page 30 of the AfriNIC Bylaws.... image >> cut from the PDF. >> >> Thus if there are at least three Board Members, if one leaves the room - >> the last two can call a meeting, see that there is no quorum, send notice >> to the third, adjourn the meeting and then after at least 24 hours, conduct >> a meeting in quorum assuming then that there are at least three Board >> members. If this happens - it must be minuted. >> >> On 6/8/22 6:36 AM, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote: >> >> Hi Owen, >> >> >> >> Well - it depends. If a non-quorate meeting was called and then >> adjourned for 24 hours and reconvened they would gain quorum under the >> bylaws. >> >> >> >> The question becomes - and this is where I am uncertain and believe it is >> open to debate - can a meeting be called knowing full well that quorum >> cannot be there and then adjourned for 24 hours to gain quorum - thereby >> deliberately exploiting a loophole. It is one thing to call a meeting >> thinking you would have quorum - not getting it - adjourning for 24 hours >> and then gaining quorum after giving notice to the absent directors. It is >> another thing entirely to call a meeting knowing full well quorum could not >> be met and having no one to give notice to. >> >> >> >> Either way at bare minimum a meeting would have had to be called - >> adjourned 24 hours - and then reconvened to be quorate. This would have to >> be minuted. The board has been silent on if this process was followed >> despite members asking the question. Once again we face a situation where >> this organization is not answering legitimate questions from its members - >> and to me that is even more troublesome than the quorum issue. >> >> >> >> Furthermore - last I checked the board of directors page online had >> updated the chair and vice chair but was still showing the old directors >> listed as current - why has that not been updated to show the vacant seats >> accordingly >> >> >> >> Andrew >> >> >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss >> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 8, 2022 12:54:52 AM >> *To:* Ish Sookun >> >> *Cc:* AFRINIC Community Discuss >> ; AfriNIC Discuss >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & >> Vice-Chair of AFRINIC >> >> >> >> How did the board hold a meeting given that they cannot field a quorum >> after the AGMM? >> >> Owen >> >> >> > On Jun 7, 2022, at 00:15 , Ish Sookun >> wrote: >> > >> > Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari, >> > >> > I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and >> Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively. >> > I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the >> organisation through the rough waters. >> > >> > I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > ??? >> > >> > Ish Sookun >> > >> > Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Community-Discuss mailing list >> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> -- >> >> Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa >> mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 <+27826010496> >> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za >> >> [image: Posix Systems][image: VCARD for MJ Elkins] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Wed Jun 8 18:43:11 2022 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 11:43:11 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <44925.1654713791@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , Owen DeLong wrote: >> On Jun 7, 2022, at 17:03 , Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: >> >> In message , >> Owen DeLong wrote: >> >>> Again, I don't know the details, but this is what I surmise from >>> the video and from other comments I've seen on the lists. I had >>> no involvement with or knowledge of any such scheme, and consider such a >>> scheme extremely unethical and immoral even if it is perfectly legal. >> >> But in your view, these activities and the company that undertook them >> are not -sufficiently- unethical and immoral to prevent you from cashing >> any more checks from that company, yes? > >I have no affiliation with NRS and have not taken any money from them, >so your insinuation is out of line here. This is a quite slippery response Owen, since it is, I believe, altogether clear and apparent that the same single party is the driving force and the person who ultimately signs the checks for both Cloud Innovation and NRS, as well as Larus, the Larus Foundation, and perhaps also an as-yet-to-be- determined collection of additional entities. Are you asserting that this is NOT the case? Regards, rfg From owen at delong.com Wed Jun 8 19:17:55 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 12:17:55 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99_MEETIN?= =?utf-8?q?G_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: <44925.1654713791@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <44925.1654713791@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 8, 2022, at 11:43 , Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > In message >, > Owen DeLong > wrote: > >>> On Jun 7, 2022, at 17:03 , Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: >>> >>> In message , >>> Owen DeLong wrote: >>> >>>> Again, I don't know the details, but this is what I surmise from >>>> the video and from other comments I've seen on the lists. I had >>>> no involvement with or knowledge of any such scheme, and consider such a >>>> scheme extremely unethical and immoral even if it is perfectly legal. >>> >>> But in your view, these activities and the company that undertook them >>> are not -sufficiently- unethical and immoral to prevent you from cashing >>> any more checks from that company, yes? >> >> I have no affiliation with NRS and have not taken any money from them, >> so your insinuation is out of line here. > > This is a quite slippery response Owen, since it is, I believe, altogether > clear and apparent that the same single party is the driving force and the > person who ultimately signs the checks for both Cloud Innovation and NRS, > as well as Larus, the Larus Foundation, and perhaps also an as-yet-to-be- > determined collection of additional entities. I do not know to what extent NRS is driven by Lu or not. I do know that he was involved in its creation and I told him at the time that I wanted nothing to do with it because I did not think that the intended mission was a good idea and NRS has done nothing to make me think any better of it since that time. In business, we all end up working with/for people who do things we don?t like. I don?t work for or have anything to do with NRS and I don?t work for defense contractors and the like. > Are you asserting that this is NOT the case? I honestly don?t know. I share the same suspicions you state above, but I really literally do not know. I will refer you to one of your own statements to me about distinguishing between idle gossip and proof. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sfolayan at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 19:59:28 2022 From: sfolayan at gmail.com (Sunday Folayan) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 20:59:28 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Congratulations to the new Chair - Benjamin and the Vice Chair - Abdallah on your appointment. Good luck, as you navigate the waters and work hard to quickly achieve compliance. Please work with all willing members to seek ways to resolve all pending disputes, using Alternative Dispute Resolution methods where possible. Many thanks to SM and Prof for your services to the community. Sunday. On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 8:16 AM Ish Sookun wrote: > Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari, > > I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and > Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively. > I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the > organisation through the rough waters. > > I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership. > > Regards, > > ??? > > Ish Sookun > > Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Wed Jun 8 20:50:45 2022 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 13:50:45 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45858.1654721445@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , Owen DeLong wrote: >I do not know to what extent NRS is driven by Lu or not. I do know that he >was involved in its creation and I told him at the time that I wanted nothing >to do with it because I did not think that the intended mission was a good idea In my opinion, and based on at least some evidence, it is altogether self- evident that NRS is yet another entity created by Lu Heng to serve his evident interests. He's on this mailing list. If he wants to deny that, then let him come here and do that. I do not believe that NRS sprung, like the goddess Athena, magically from the brow of Zeus. It required funding and organization and also the motivation to provide both. Its goals would certainly appear to be 100% in alignment with Lu Heng's goals and (financial) motivations. The timing of its creation (the domain name nrs.help was registered on 2021-08-06) and its alleged physical location (Hong Kong) also provide some rather obvious clues. Owen, it is easy enough for you to claim some ignorance or innocence with regards to the unambiguously underhanded tactics of the people behind NRS, but you will have trouble convincing me me that you aren't earning your daily bread by working for these exact same unethical people, even if you may only be doing so under a different one of the several corporate names that Lu Heng has registered for his expansive operations. If a mere multiplicity of corporate facades is enough of a basis to assuage your conscience, then all I can say is that you have a rather more pliant sense of ethics than I. Regards, rfg From dmurungi at wia.co.tz Wed Jun 8 21:02:33 2022 From: dmurungi at wia.co.tz (dmurungi at wia.co.tz) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 00:02:33 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <8BD4A5C9-08E5-47C0-B522-E43518CD6D01@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Dear community, I write to congratulate Mr. Eshun and Dr. Omari. Am hopeful they will execute their duties in the best interest of AFRINIC and the community at large. Additionally, many thanks to the outgoing chair and vice chair for their selfless service and leadership. Regards, Murungi Daniel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Wed Jun 8 21:28:31 2022 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 14:28:31 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__ATTENDANCE_?= =?utf-8?q?=26_PARTICIPATION_AT_THE_ANNUAL_GENERAL_MEMBERS=E2=80=99?= =?utf-8?q?_MEETING_=28AGMM=29?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <46078.1654723711@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , Owen DeLong wrote: >I do not know to what extent NRS is driven by Lu or not. I do know that he >was involved in its creation and I told him at the time that I wanted nothing >to do with it because I did not think that the intended mission was a good idea Owen, even though you are steadfastly claiming that you have no direct involvement with NRS, as I have previously noted, and as you yourself confirmed, Lu Heng was, at the very least, involved in its creation. I wonder then if you would be so kind as to reach out and see if you can find out, on behalf of us all, the identity of the freckled Irishman who plays the starring role in most or all of the NRS YouTube propaganda videos. I, for one, would be very interested to know just who the hell he is. Except for the fact that he still has both ears he is a dead ringer for the long deceased painter Vincent van Gogh and I can't help wondering if there is some relation (although van Gogh had no children, as far as I know). I really would like to know who that guy is, but it does seem that he makes no effort whatsoever, in any of his numerous over-the-top defamatory propaganda videos, to even introduce himself, much less the author(s) of the script(s) he is reading from. Why is that? Is he perhaps so ashamed of what he's doing that even as a hired actor he doesn't want his own name associated with any of this rubbish? I must remark also on the marvelously ironic humor of watching this particular and exceptionally white guy preaching his bought & paid for gospel of how to save the African Internet. Since the beginning of the pandemic, I have, I confess, seen the sun directly only much lss often than I used to. And thus, being caucasian as I am, these days I am even more pale than usual. But this freckled Irishman in the NRS videos makes even me look like Meghan Markle by way of comparison. And this particular fellow wants to lecture Africans on how best to run the African portion of the Internet??? Forgive me. It is not my intent to bring race into this. Not by any means. It is just that I am more than a little troubled by the fact that this fellow, who is the only voice and only star in all of the NRS videos, looks and sounds about as African as your typical Eskimo. So I kind-of would like to know who he is and where he is speaking from. I'd also like to be able to ask him directly if he has ever even set foot in Africa. It's OK if he hasn't of course. He has a right to his opinions just as you or I have. But if one is going to verbosely and vividly proselytize on the topic of what is best or Africa, then I think that one should at least state one's name and the reasons for such a personal interest. This guy hasn't, and thus he remains a mystery man... a total enigma. Owen, can you find out who he is and let as all know? An email address or phone number would be helpful also. Thanks in advance. regards, rfg From noah at neo.co.tz Wed Jun 8 21:57:36 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 00:57:36 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?NRS_Accountability_and_Transparency?= =?utf-8?q?_=28was=3A_Re=3A_Call_for_a_Special_General_Member?= =?utf-8?b?4oCZcyBNZWV0aW5nKQ==?= In-Reply-To: <51FF8286-549B-4744-AD71-EFAE54722157@arin.net> References: <51FF8286-549B-4744-AD71-EFAE54722157@arin.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jun 2022, 16:01 John Curran, wrote: > > On 3 Jun 2022, at 5:57 AM, Paul Hjul wrote: > > Hi all, > > A petition has reached critical mass to call an SGMM, hopefully the Board > won't play pokey on this one. > > Dear Members, > > For your information, the members who signed the petitions have already > discussed and thereafter informed the Board to call for the Special General > Member?s Meeting as it is representing not less than 5% of the Resource > Members as required by the bylaws. All related documents that were shared > herein are sent to the Board and Chair as well for their reference and > review. > > Please see the attached link below for the content of the petition ; > https://www.nrs.help/petition > > Regards, > Paul Hjul > Member > > > Paul - > > As this petition appears to be organized by the ?Number Resource Society? > (NRS) ? a body which purports to hold core beliefs and values that include > an Internet "that relies on a global free market and enterprise with > excellent transparency and accountability? ? and further appears (if I > understand the associated video on the NRS website promoting the petition) > to be claiming the petition is necessary to improve accountability and > transparency of the RIR system, it would probably be good if the NRS itself > would provide a modicum of transparency in this process. > > To this end, could you explain the Governing Body and procedures of the > NRS? I note that NRS Membership "Terms and Conditions? < > https://www.nrs.help/terms-conditions> notes that admission is not open > to all, but is subject to "acceptance of the Admission Committee?, but can > find no reference to the process for seating or present composition of said > Committee. > > From the Terms and Conditions it is also clear that the obligations of > membership bind one to acting & voting "in line with the objective, > mission, guide, instructions, and/or mandate of NRS and which include but > are not limited to policy internet making and/or voting in line with the > objectives of NRS with regard to freedom in accessing internet, > internet stability, fair distribution of internet.?, but it is less so who > exactly in the NRS make the determination of what particular votes (whether > policy or election) would be in compliance with the ?objective, mission, > guide, instructions, and/or mandate of NRS? ? this appears to be very > important for one to have before signing away the ability to make > independent judgement in such matters. > > It is strange that the NRS "shall have the absolute discretion to > terminate the membership of a Member at any time with prior notice to the > member without assigning any reason.? ? there seems to be a lack of due > process here, and hence the governance provisions of the NRS would seem > woefully lacking for a body that intends aid community representation. > > If you could elaborate on the above issues, that might allow others to > understand how a body that purports to want to improve accountability can > do so while lacking in community accountability itself. It is possible > that I misunderstand its governance structures, so any insight that you (or > others at the NRS) can provide might clarify things a bit? as it is, the > NRS operates rather opaquely despite its purported lofty goals of excellent > transparency and accountability. > > Thanks! > /John > > John Curran > President and CEO > American Registry for Internet Numbers > Attention Paul Hjul.... Just in case you missed the above email, your response would come in handy to the questions Mr.John Curran asked you? Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yamadu at ug.edu.gh Thu Jun 9 08:01:42 2022 From: yamadu at ug.edu.gh (AMADU YUSIF) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 08:01:42 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Congrats Ben and Abdallah. [cid:91c833f5-2742-44d2-8b84-26e0b474cdf0][cid:525b6737-0bc8-4d5d-8756-fa9a5a494e5a] Yusif Amadu Instructional Designer/Technologist University of Ghana Computing Systems Office: University of Ghana Telephone: +233(0)244 659245 Email: yamadu at ug.edu.gh Website: www.ug.edu.gh Skype: kooissi Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/yusif-amadu ________________________________ From: Sunday Folayan Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 10:59 AM To: Ish Sookun Cc: AFRINIC Community Discuss ; AfriNIC Discuss Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Congratulations to the new Chair & Vice-Chair of AFRINIC Congratulations to the new Chair - Benjamin and the Vice Chair - Abdallah on your appointment. Good luck, as you navigate the waters and work hard to quickly achieve compliance. Please work with all willing members to seek ways to resolve all pending disputes, using Alternative Dispute Resolution methods where possible. Many thanks to SM and Prof for your services to the community. Sunday. On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 8:16 AM Ish Sookun > wrote: Dear Mr. Eshun & Dr. Omari, I congratulate both of you for your appointment as Chairman and Vice-Chairman of AFRINIC respectively. I wish you all the best and hope you will be able to navigate the organisation through the rough waters. I also thank SM for his time, guidance and leadership. Regards, ??? Ish Sookun Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd _______________________________________________ Members-Discuss mailing list Members-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-hwjfid01.png Type: image/png Size: 8305 bytes Desc: Outlook-hwjfid01.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-0hyh0cxp.png Type: image/png Size: 31887 bytes Desc: Outlook-0hyh0cxp.png URL: From eddy at afrinic.net Thu Jun 9 19:54:23 2022 From: eddy at afrinic.net (Eddy Kayihura) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 21:54:23 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Simple request Message-ID: <743D13F9-6B3E-4067-BD3E-F8C49AF4D18C@afrinic.net> Dear Community, I am sorry to use this medium but not sure how else to do it. A message to NRS Members on this list, please convey to your editor. I have remained silent with all the defamation you have done about myself and the Board. Can I kindly ask you to edit one of your video and remove the picture of the visit from the Minister of ICT of Rwanda to AFRINIC where you talk of a corrupt Board? She has nothing to do with your fight and please honor and respect African?s authorities. Thanks, Eddy From noah at neo.co.tz Fri Jun 10 11:51:21 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 14:51:21 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Simple request In-Reply-To: <743D13F9-6B3E-4067-BD3E-F8C49AF4D18C@afrinic.net> References: <743D13F9-6B3E-4067-BD3E-F8C49AF4D18C@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Hi Eddy I have cced Lu Heng's known email address just in case. Noah On Thu, 9 Jun 2022, 23:01 Eddy Kayihura, wrote: > Dear Community, > > I am sorry to use this medium but not sure how else to do it. > > A message to NRS Members on this list, please convey to your editor. > > I have remained silent with all the defamation you have done about myself > and the Board. > > Can I kindly ask you to edit one of your video and remove the picture of > the visit from the Minister of ICT of Rwanda to AFRINIC where you talk of a > corrupt Board? > > She has nothing to do with your fight and please honor and respect > African?s authorities. > > Thanks, > > Eddy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Tue Jun 14 21:32:09 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:32:09 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear members, my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan tELECOM authority and not the government itself. I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last time I checked, is not an African country. d- advise, to seek the truth and apologize to the 2000+ members of AFRINIC who feel SHOULD be insulted by your letter. We demand a public apology or clarification from The Pakistan Telecommunication Authority. I have delegated A team of Lawyers is drafting a query to the Embassy / High Commission of Pakistan here to find the truth about such a letter and then we will act accordingly. Amin Dayekh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Wed Jun 15 06:28:50 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 07:28:50 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA Message-ID: Dear members, My attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. In the Video, I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of Pakistan" but when I paused and looked at the document, The alledged letter is issued by the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority and not the government itself. I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? c- raise a solid query, with regards to their breach of our sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nation through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last time I checked, is not an African country. d- advise, to seek the truth and apologize to the 2000+ members of AFRINIC who feel SHOULD be insulted by your letter. We demand a public apology or clarification from The Pakistan Telecommunication Authority. I have delegated a team of Lawyers who are drafting a query to the Embassy / High Commission of Pakistan here to find the truth about such a letter and then we will act accordingly. Amin Dayekh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Wed Jun 15 16:10:56 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 09:10:56 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> > On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > Dear members, > my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. > > in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan tELECOM authority and not the government itself. > > I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: > > a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? > b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? > c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last time I checked, is not an African country. Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or CPM says so? You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one engaged in a campaign of disinformation. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Wed Jun 15 16:22:15 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 17:22:15 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> Message-ID: Owen, Don?t rush, all in good time. Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no single piece of evidence! AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie) When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes. If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which company you are talking about?! On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong wrote: > > > On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > Dear members, > my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who > are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. > > in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of > Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan > tELECOM authority and not the government itself. > > I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan > telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: > > a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? > b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least > communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? > c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty as > an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the alleged > Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a > fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's > IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last > time I checked, is not an African country. > > > Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses are > somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or CPM > says so? > > You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and > corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one > engaged in a campaign of disinformation. > > Owen > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Wed Jun 15 16:29:41 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 17:29:41 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> Message-ID: Owen, One question which a yes or no question: Is it allowed by afrinic with the provisions of bylaws written in Good faith relying on the integrity of Members, is it Allowed to Sell IPV4 ? On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:22 PM Amin Dayekh wrote: > Owen, > > Don?t rush, all in good time. > > Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no single > piece of evidence! > > AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh > your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the > proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which > are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all > cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. > > Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved > in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie) > > When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide > evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table > corrupting the members to buy Votes. > > If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your > good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want > and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as > the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. > > By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which > company you are talking about?! > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong wrote: > >> >> >> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >> >> Dear members, >> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who >> are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. >> >> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of >> Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan >> tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >> >> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan >> telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >> >> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least >> communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty as >> an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the alleged >> Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a >> fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's >> IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last >> time I checked, is not an African country. >> >> >> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses are >> somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or CPM >> says so? >> >> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and >> corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one >> engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >> >> Owen >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Wed Jun 15 17:30:50 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 10:30:50 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > Owen, > > Don?t rush, all in good time. > > Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no single piece of evidence! > > AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. Other companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction on usage. If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR. AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of the soft landing policy. What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend their rights under the contract they signed against a board that is misconstruing the bylaws and acting outside of its authority. The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few procedural victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a series of injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal actions it has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. Most of the cases are still undecided. > Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie) I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. > When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes. I?ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to someone else here? Perhaps yourself? > If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be specific. I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. > By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which company you are talking about?! I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your statements. I thought that was clear from the context. Owen > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong > wrote: > > >> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >> >> Dear members, >> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. >> >> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >> >> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >> >> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last time I checked, is not an African country. > > Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or CPM says so? > > You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one engaged in a campaign of disinformation. > > Owen > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Wed Jun 15 17:32:20 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 10:32:20 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> Message-ID: <1EB55248-0328-49ED-8B49-3C0FD7E225DD@delong.com> > On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:29 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > Owen, > > One question which a yes or no question: > > Is it allowed by afrinic with the provisions of bylaws written in Good faith relying on the integrity of Members, is it Allowed to Sell IPV4 ? The bylaws are mute on this subject? It is a policy matter. Current policy only allows them to be sold to another AFRINIC member. However, I?m not sure how this is relevant to the discussion at hand. LARUS and Cloud Innovation have not sold any AFRINIC number resources. Instead, like all LIRs, they lease them to their clients. Owen > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:22 PM Amin Dayekh > wrote: > Owen, > > Don?t rush, all in good time. > > Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no single piece of evidence! > > AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. > > Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie) > > When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes. > > If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. > > By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which company you are talking about?! > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong > wrote: > > >> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >> >> Dear members, >> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. >> >> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >> >> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >> >> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last time I checked, is not an African country. > > Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or CPM says so? > > You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one engaged in a campaign of disinformation. > > Owen > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Wed Jun 15 19:00:50 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 20:00:50 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> Message-ID: Owen, for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red from your ext *quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) *you used the term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever the term is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an application with the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, just like when you apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let me remind us here of the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another member. this step was taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own majority of the IPV4, and to regulate the transfers and continue to monitor the ipv4, closing the door on black and grey market. let me remind us also that such cases peculiar to need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever reason the company might be dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip resources are assigned "not sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need. quote: ( *.... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR.) *Answer: AfriNIC got the smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing a policy "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell will be suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the scarcity of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and retrieval is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you are referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and have ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable to AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do such, with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future of Africa. *quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you.)* I did not make any statement about winning on geographical grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not say? who is misinforming now? quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir if you really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft landing was easy. *quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.)* did i say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining and dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is revolving because of you and around you? I said : *Anyone *can convince *himself with any lie* and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie), did you see you or me or owen or amin in this statement? *quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) *Again: Did I say you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I mention you? My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on their website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and through a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan or the spokesperson of PTA? On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong wrote: > > > On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > Owen, > > Don?t rush, all in good time. > > Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no single > piece of evidence! > > AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh > your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the > proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which > are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all > cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. > > > *Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized >> resources in a worldwide secondary market.* Other companies wish to be >> able to obtain addresses from that same market once the artificially >> constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some companies would >> prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple RIRs to a single >> contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons that have >> absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction on usage. > > > If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of >> companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued >> space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be >> an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa >> is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC >> and has never received serious attention in any other RIR. > > > AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical > restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. > > I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, as > a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa > restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of > the soft landing policy. > > What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend their > rights under the contract they signed against a board that is misconstruing > the bylaws and acting outside of its authority. > > The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few procedural > victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a series of > injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal actions it > has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. Most of the > cases are still undecided. > > Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved > in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie) > > > I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This > statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, > frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. > > When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide > evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table > corrupting the members to buy Votes. > > > I?ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to someone > else here? Perhaps yourself? > > If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your > good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want > and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as > the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. > > > What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be > specific. > > I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. > > By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which > company you are talking about?! > > > I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your > statements. I thought that was clear from the context. > > Owen > > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong wrote: > >> >> >> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >> >> Dear members, >> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who >> are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. >> >> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of >> Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan >> tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >> >> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan >> telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >> >> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least >> communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty as >> an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the alleged >> Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a >> fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's >> IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last >> time I checked, is not an African country. >> >> >> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses are >> somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or CPM >> says so? >> >> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and >> corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one >> engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >> >> Owen >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Wed Jun 15 19:01:57 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 20:01:57 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: <1EB55248-0328-49ED-8B49-3C0FD7E225DD@delong.com> References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> <1EB55248-0328-49ED-8B49-3C0FD7E225DD@delong.com> Message-ID: pls save this answer for later, just remember what you said here and i will prove you wrong regardless the companies you mentioned as i have no affiliation with them i dont comment on them. On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:33 PM Owen DeLong wrote: > > > On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:29 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > Owen, > > One question which a yes or no question: > > Is it allowed by afrinic with the provisions of bylaws written in Good > faith relying on the integrity of Members, is it Allowed to Sell IPV4 ? > > > The bylaws are mute on this subject? It is a policy matter. Current policy > only allows them to be sold to another AFRINIC member. > > However, I?m not sure how this is relevant to the discussion at hand. > > LARUS and Cloud Innovation have not sold any AFRINIC number resources. > > Instead, like all LIRs, they lease them to their clients. > > Owen > > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:22 PM Amin Dayekh wrote: > >> Owen, >> >> Don?t rush, all in good time. >> >> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no single >> piece of evidence! >> >> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh >> your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the >> proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which >> are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all >> cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. >> >> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions >> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to >> spread lie) >> >> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide >> evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table >> corrupting the members to buy Votes. >> >> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your >> good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want >> and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as >> the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >> >> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which >> company you are talking about?! >> >> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>> >>> Dear members, >>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who >>> are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. >>> >>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of >>> Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan >>> tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >>> >>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan >>> telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >>> >>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least >>> communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty >>> as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the >>> alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a >>> fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's >>> IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last >>> time I checked, is not an African country. >>> >>> >>> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses are >>> somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or CPM >>> says so? >>> >>> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and >>> corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one >>> engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hjul.paul at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 19:52:54 2022 From: hjul.paul at gmail.com (Paul Hjul) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 21:52:54 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Interim order of June 14th 2022 Message-ID: Hi Ish Well no if Afrinic were subject to the laws of a different state the litigation might fall away because of endemic corruption and political malfeasance in that state. Mauritius is a proper jurisdiction (the country is not perfect - I really wish I'd get to spend more time outside Port Louis) What Badru is proposing is putting Afrinic in a position where it is not subject to the rule of law. His clan of malcontents after inflicting massive harm on the organization don't want the organization to operate according to law and a rules based system. His entire outburst is predicated on the idea that the court blocking somebody who is improperly being treated as a director of a Company from so being treated is anything other than the court doing its job. Don't blame the litigant or the court for stopping a patent and severe illegality, blame those who knowingly were breaking the law. This is why Badru would be opposed to Delaware. I don't think Delaware is the right jurisdiction for Afrinic because my understanding is even more so than Mauritius Delaware is "management friendly" so for a members based organization as opposed to a startup with a founder and management team in which shareholder interests are served in a particular way. I'll have to look it up by Switzerland might be the place more than Delaware except it is expensive. What you are right about is that the jurisdiction arrangement of an organization like Afrinic shouldn't matter all that much because the organization should function properly. It is probably worth pointing out that this injunction confirms the fact that seat 6 has been improperly occupied. With seat 5 and seat 6 wrongly listed in what the Company is conveying as making up the board its very clear that the Board is improperly constituted and what is more that the Board as constituted has less than 5 members. In most jurisdictions this would be the point at which shareholders meeting would be the natural course. I believe and am advised that in Mauritius the company law would see the court appoint directors to keep the company able to govern its own affairs. What will put an end to the massive wastage of money on really disasterous litigation is a proper dispute resolution process. Afrinic and the members of the board (the 4 persons holding seats on the misconstituted board) can all sit down and take proper advise from persons who exercise a fiduciary responsibility towards the lawful best interests of Afrinic and plot a way forward. The problem for those persons is that Badru and his crew of malcontents will attack them personally and viciously. The time for courage by four individuals who have a fiduciary responsibility to the company to do the right thing continues to be now. . Message: 1 Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 23:07:46 +0400 From: Ish Sookun To: Badru Ntege Cc: AfriNIC Discuss Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Interim order of June 14th 2022 Message-ID: <843EBCFD-B36F-4E6E-A4EA-5F53DD066F7F at lasentinelle.mu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi Badru, Having AFRINIC HQ in another country will not stop these legal disputes. Regards, ??? Ish Sookun Systems Architect @ La Sentinelle Ltd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcurran at arin.net Wed Jun 15 20:07:06 2022 From: jcurran at arin.net (John Curran) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 20:07:06 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> Message-ID: <8C28117D-C55F-4F4B-9C33-777A21EF5AFA@arin.net> On 15 Jun 2022, at 1:30 PM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: ... AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of the soft landing policy. Owen - Since you?re opining on such matters, do you believe a "plain text reading" of the applicable documents allows AFRINIC to restrict use to the same purpose for which they were originally requested and issued? Thanks! /John John Curran President and CEO American Registry for Internet Numbers -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Wed Jun 15 21:34:14 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 00:34:14 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Interim order of June 14th 2022 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2022, 22:58 Paul Hjul, wrote: > Hi Ish > > Well no if Afrinic were subject to the laws of a different state the > litigation might fall away because of endemic corruption and political > malfeasance in that state. Mauritius is a proper jurisdiction (the country > is not perfect - I really wish I'd get to spend more time outside Port > Louis) > What Badru is proposing is putting Afrinic in a position where it is not > subject to the rule of law. His clan of malcontents after inflicting > massive harm on the organization don't want the organization to operate > according to law and a rules based system. His entire outburst is > predicated on the idea that the court blocking somebody who is improperly > being treated as a director of a Company from so being treated is anything > other than the court doing its job. Don't blame the litigant or the court > for stopping a patent and severe illegality, blame those who knowingly were > breaking the law. > > This is why Badru would be opposed to Delaware. I don't think Delaware is > the right jurisdiction for Afrinic because my understanding is even more so > than Mauritius Delaware is "management friendly" so for a members based > organization as opposed to a startup with a founder and management team in > which shareholder interests are served in a particular way. I'll have to > look it up by Switzerland might be the place more than Delaware except it > is expensive. > > What you are right about is that the jurisdiction arrangement of an > organization like Afrinic shouldn't matter all that much because the > organization should function properly. It is probably worth pointing out > that this injunction confirms the fact that seat 6 has been improperly > occupied. With seat 5 and seat 6 wrongly listed in what the Company is > conveying as making up the board its very clear that the Board is > improperly constituted and what is more that the Board as constituted has > less than 5 members. In most jurisdictions this would be the point at which > shareholders meeting would be the natural course. I believe and am advised > that in Mauritius the company law would see the court appoint directors to > keep the company able to govern its own affairs. What will put an end to > the massive wastage of money on really disasterous litigation is a proper > dispute resolution process. Afrinic and the members of the board (the 4 > persons holding seats on the misconstituted board) can all sit down and > take proper advise from persons who exercise a fiduciary responsibility > towards the lawful best interests of Afrinic and plot a way forward. The > problem for those persons is that Badru and his crew of malcontents will > attack them personally and viciously. The time for courage by four > individuals who have a fiduciary responsibility to the company to do the > right thing continues to be now. > Often time you write very long contradictory emails to various Afrinic list but you still ignored answering an email which Mr.John Curran the president of ARIN asked you some week ago ...some very simple questions. Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Wed Jun 15 22:53:20 2022 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 15:53:20 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <21287.1655333600@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Amin Dayekh wrote: >in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of >Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan >tELECOM authority and not the government itself. I'm glad that you brought that up, because I saw that video also, and I said to myself "Wait... WHAT?? The Government of Pakistan has decided to wage war on the global RIR system?? Ha! I wish them luck with that. Maybe they can start their own intranet, like Russia." :-) Regards, rfg P.S. Checking Google News it appears that the only even somewhat recent -actual- news relating to Pakistan & the Internet is from about 3 weeks ago and it was just that the Pakistan government shut down the Internet in Pakistan on account of anti-government riots. Somehow I don't think this is relevant to -either- AFRINIC or to the global system for allocating IP address space. In short, the video would seem to be spreading deliberate disinformation. (There's a lot of that going around, including here in the USA. In fact we here are pioneering whole new categories of disinformation!) From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jun 16 00:08:24 2022 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 17:08:24 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <21794.1655338104@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Amin Dayekh wrote: >AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh >your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the >proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which >are available online? With respect to the various IP blocks that were reclaimed by AFRINIC due to the now evident fact that they were outright stolen, geography is rather entirely irrelevant to those blocks, I think. With respect to the various IP blocks that AFRINIC has attempted to reclaim from Cloud Innovation, I confess that I personally am still very much in the dark about the exact reasons for that action on AFRINIC's part. These matters have been under legal adjudication for some time now and as a result, as far as I personally am aware, AFRINIC has been rather entirely tight-lipped about the exact cause of its efforts to reclaim these blocks. If anyone else has some accurate and definitive information about this, I would be very happy to receive that. That all having been said, I think that in the absence of a specific statement of the matter from AFRINIC officials it would be a mistake to jump to the conclusion that AFRINIC has attempted to reclaim blocks from Cloud Innovation due to some considerations relating specifically to geography. Rather, it is my (perhaps imperfect) understanding that AFRINIC has attempted to reclaim blocks from Cloud Innovation due to the latter's failure to properly inform AFRINIC, as required under the terms of the RSA contract, of a change in the circumstances of usage of those blocks, relative to the justification(s) that were used to obtain those blocks originally. If that is correct, then the change(s) in question may or may not have related to the geographical location where the blocks were originally planned to be deployed and/or to the geographical location where they actually were, ultimately, deployed. I can easly envision that perhaps some other change in the nature of the usage, relative to the original justification, may also have taken place in this instance, and that this additional change may not have been duly reported to AFRINIC as required under the RSA contract. If so, that would be a reasonable basis for AFRINIC to terminate the contract, in my opinion. For example, if one wished, initially, to use a an IPv4 block for running proxies, e.g. to enable people to (illegally?) end run around the Great Firewall of China, then it is easy to understand why a great many individual IP addreses would be needed. On the other hand, if, at some time after the allocation was made, the registrant changed course and decided to use the allocated IP addresses for web hosting (where anyone can easily use a single IP address to host literally thousands of web sites) then this is, I think, a material change in the nature of the usage, and one which would both (a) oblige the registrant to notify AFRINC of the change in usage and it would be a change in usage which would also (b) effectively invalidate the original IP space justification. This all may have happened. I really just do not know. If it did happen, then none of this would involve or implicate geography in any way, thus rendering all debates about using IPs inside of Africa or outside of Africa rather entirely irrelevant, if not to say downright silly. It is certainly a hot topic of conversation as to whether or not registrants which be either permitted or encouraged to use their AFRINIC-supplied IP addresses outside of the region and/or to transfer them outside the region. I just don't want anyone to become confused or to improperly and incorrectly conflate the topic of geographical restrictions with the topic of what prompted AFRINIC to try to reclaim the blocks allocated to Cloud Innovation. It is NOT clear, to me at least, that there is any relationship at all between these two topics. Regards, rfg From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jun 16 00:29:44 2022 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 17:29:44 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Interim order of June 14th 2022 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <21986.1655339384@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Paul Hjul wrote: >This is why Badru would be opposed to Delaware. I don't think Delaware is >the right jurisdiction for Afrinic because my understanding is even more so >than Mauritius Delaware is "management friendly" so for a members based >organization as opposed to a startup with a founder and management team in >which shareholder interests are served in a particular way. I'll have to >look it up by Switzerland might be the place more than Delaware except it >is expensive. Just FYI -- It is my understanding that a good place to incorporate if one wishes not to be disturbed by either frivilous or even well-founded legal actions is the city of Road Town on the island of Tortola, in the British Virgin Islands. Regards, rfg From hjul.paul at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 14:35:53 2022 From: hjul.paul at gmail.com (Paul Hjul) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 16:35:53 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Interim order of June 14th 2022 Message-ID: Considering that its been a day since the order it is probably not a good idea for the Company to reflect https://afrinic.net/board as having on the board somebody who the company is under an injunction prohibiting them from allowing that person to exercise the powers of a director. And it is not as if the website is simply out of date: https://afrinic.net/court-cases shows that the The matter is resisted So the Company has already decided to fight against the obvious. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Thu Jun 16 19:16:11 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 22:16:11 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Interim order of June 14th 2022 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2022, 17:42 Paul Hjul, wrote: > Considering that its been a day since the order > https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/interim Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Fri Jun 17 03:40:24 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 20:40:24 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:00 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > Owen, > for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red from your ext > > quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) you used the term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever the term is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an application with the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, just like when you apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let me remind us here of the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another member. this step was taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own majority of the IPV4, and to regulate the transfers and continue to monitor the ipv4, closing the door on black and grey market. let me remind us also that such cases peculiar to need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever reason the company might be dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip resources are assigned "not sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need. Neither Larus nor Cloud Innovation is selling resources received from AFRINIC? I stated that many other resource holders wish to do so and that is one of the reasons that those resource holders are pushing for a transfer policy. This is not inconsistent, it is your inability to differentiate and/or your failure to look past your efforts to ascribe the most sinister possible motives to every statement I make. The RIR doesn?t govern anything. The community governs the RIR and the RIR is supposed to administer the registry according to the policies set by the community and according to its bylaws which are controlled by the membership of the RIR. Perhaps it is this fundamental misunderstanding of who is specifically supposed to be empowered in the governance of the internet and as a result the RIRs that is driving some of your other misstatements. For clarity: ICANN/PTI in its role performing the IANA operates the central registry for IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses, and ASNs (among other things). It does so according to global policies which are set by the RIRs acting in concert through the Address Supporting Organization, specifically the ASO AC, which is synonymous with the NRO NC. Each RIR receives resources from the IANA central registry according to its justified need and pursuant to those policies mentioned above. Each RIR distributes those resources to its subscribers (members or not, depending on the RIR?s specific policies) according to the policies set in the RIR by its community and according to the bylaws of the RIR set by its members. Each RIR is expected to operate within the policies created by its membership and according to its bylaws. When an RIR fails to do so, it becomes far more dangerous than is expected. Some RIR subscribers are LIRs (Local Internet Registries). LIRs provide address space to their customers (usually for a fee) whether in relationship with connectivity services or as a separate product. Some RIR subscribers are end users and simply use the address space they receive from the RIR directly. Every RIR except AFRINIC has an inter-RIR transfer policy at this point. Yes, the recipient needs to show need in the case of an inter-RIR transfer. There are many different reasons organizations want to be able to engage in inter-RIR transfers and I enumerated several of them. You chose to focus on a single one because that is the one you hope to be able to twist into something sinister. > quote: ( .... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR.) Answer: AfriNIC got the smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing a policy "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell will be suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the scarcity of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and retrieval is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you are referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and have ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable to AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do such, with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future of Africa. If you are opposed to an inter-RIR transfer policy, then so be it. That has little or nothing to do with whether or not existing addresses registered to an organization by AFRINIC are allowed to be used outside of AFRICA or not. However, the policy that does exist now clearly does allow AFRINIC addresses to be utilized out of region virtually without restriction. A plain text reading of section 6 of the bylaws makes this quite clear. A plain text reading of the CPM finds only one place where this is contradicted and it applies ONLY to addresses issued after the activation of the Soft Landing policy. If you want to conduct legitimate audits, feel free. If you wish to abide by the legitimate outcome of those audits when they show legitimate utilization according to the CPM, the RSA, and the bylaws, I?ll fully support that. However, use out of region does not violate any of the terms in any of those documents unless the addresses were issued to the organization after the activation of the soft landing policy. AFRINIC is free to enforce any policy which has been adopted by the community and ratified by the board. There is no policy restricting the location of utilization of addresses which meets that test at this time. > quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you.) I did not make any statement about winning on geographical grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not say? who is misinforming now? You stated: "AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. ? Your claim is that AFRINIC should have already lost all cases on geographic basis if my statement was true. I pointed out that AFRINIC has neither lost nor won because the cases that relate to this matter have not yet concluded. I did not put words in your mouth, I responded to what you actually said. > > quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir if you really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft landing was easy. ARIN never passed a soft landing policy and it worked out quite well there, IMHO. However, the only mention I have made regarding soft landing in any of these statements is to mention that it is the only policy with geographical restrictions on utilization codified in the policy. I?ve also pointed out that said policy does not apply to any addresses issued to Cloud Innovation. > > quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.) did i say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining and dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is revolving because of you and around you? I said : Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie), did you see you or me or owen or amin in this statement? You made the following direct statement in a message sent directly to me as well as an open list: "Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie)? In context, it is quite clear you were intending to level this as a direct accusation towards me. Your use of weasel words and attempted evasions notwithstanding, at least I have the courage to own what I say and take responsibility for it. > quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) Again: Did I say you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I mention you? You said: "When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes.? You said this in an email directed to me and copied to an open list. So in effect, yes, you did claim I published a video, you did point a finger presumably at me, and by having my name as the target of your email, yes, you did mention me for all practical purposes. > My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on their website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and through a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan or the spokesperson of PTA? In terms of the subsequent emails in this discussion, you put my name in the To: field of your email. If you didn?t intend to involve me, why did you do so? In terms of the original message, you made a public comment about the letter being sent on behalf of a ?fraudulent and misleading organization?, so I felt obliged to point out your own misleading information that you have attempted to promulgate in this same forum and with your own misguided and misleading video. I will note, that you did not address the following component of my previous message: You wrote: >> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. > To which I responded: > What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be specific. > > I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. You carefully avoided answering this? Is it perhaps because you have no answer here? You could not find an actual misquote? I find three messages into this conversation that this statement: "I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause.? is truly telling as apparently I am not such a second party and therefore perhaps you are admitting by your actions that I do not actually have a wrong cause. If so, this is progress. Owen > > > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong > wrote: > > >> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >> >> Owen, >> >> Don?t rush, all in good time. >> >> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no single piece of evidence! >> >> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. > > Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. Other companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction on usage. > > If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR. > > AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. > > I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of the soft landing policy. > > What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend their rights under the contract they signed against a board that is misconstruing the bylaws and acting outside of its authority. > > The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few procedural victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a series of injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal actions it has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. Most of the cases are still undecided. > >> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie) > > I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. > >> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes. > > I?ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to someone else here? Perhaps yourself? > >> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. > > What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be specific. > > I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. > >> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which company you are talking about?! > > I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your statements. I thought that was clear from the context. > > Owen > >> >> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong > wrote: >> >> >>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>> >>> Dear members, >>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. >>> >>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >>> >>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >>> >>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last time I checked, is not an African country. >> >> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or CPM says so? >> >> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >> >> Owen >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Fri Jun 17 03:43:52 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2022 20:43:52 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: <8C28117D-C55F-4F4B-9C33-777A21EF5AFA@arin.net> References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> <8C28117D-C55F-4F4B-9C33-777A21EF5AFA@arin.net> Message-ID: <582E1C7E-9BAF-4899-B326-76882D03FB45@delong.com> > On Jun 15, 2022, at 13:07 , John Curran wrote: > > > >> On 15 Jun 2022, at 1:30 PM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: >> ... >> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. >> >> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of the soft landing policy. > > > Owen - > > Since you?re opining on such matters, do you believe a "plain text reading" of the applicable documents allows AFRINIC to restrict use to the same purpose for which they were originally requested and issued? Unless notification was provided pursuant to RSA clause 4(iv)(3), yes. My understanding is that in the case of Cloud Innovation, this requirement was met by updates to WHOIS, as no other process for providing said updates is provided in the RSA, CPM, or bylaws. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Fri Jun 17 05:26:03 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 06:26:03 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> Message-ID: I am not replying to this news paper, nor I have time to read it all. I will also ask you to remember your statement here, ( the resource holder are pushing for a transfer policy) i will also prove you wrong! On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 4:40 AM Owen DeLong wrote: > > > On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:00 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > Owen, > for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red from > your ext > > *quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their > underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) *you used the > term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever the term > is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an application with > the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, just like when you > apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let me remind us here of > the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another member. this step was > taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own majority of the IPV4, and to > regulate the transfers and continue to monitor the ipv4, closing the door > on black and grey market. let me remind us also that such cases peculiar to > need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever reason the company might be > dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip resources are assigned "not > sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need. > > > Neither Larus nor Cloud Innovation is selling resources received from > AFRINIC? I stated that many other resource holders wish to do so and that > is one of the reasons that those resource holders are pushing for a > transfer policy. > > This is not inconsistent, it is your inability to differentiate and/or > your failure to look past your efforts to ascribe the most sinister > possible motives to every statement I make. > > The RIR doesn?t govern anything. The community governs the RIR and the RIR > is supposed to administer the registry according to the policies set by the > community and according to its bylaws which are controlled by the > membership of the RIR. > > Perhaps it is this fundamental misunderstanding of who is specifically > supposed to be empowered in the governance of the internet and as a result > the RIRs that is driving some of your other misstatements. > > For clarity: > > ICANN/PTI in its role performing the IANA operates the central registry > for IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses, and ASNs (among other things). It does > so according to global policies which are set by the RIRs acting in concert > through the Address Supporting Organization, specifically the ASO AC, which > is synonymous with the NRO NC. > > Each RIR receives resources from the IANA central registry according to > its justified need and pursuant to those policies mentioned above. > > Each RIR distributes those resources to its subscribers (members or not, > depending on the RIR?s specific policies) according to the policies set in > the RIR by its community and according to the bylaws of the RIR set by its > members. > > Each RIR is expected to operate within the policies created by its > membership and according to its bylaws. When an RIR fails to do so, it > becomes far more dangerous than is expected. > > Some RIR subscribers are LIRs (Local Internet Registries). LIRs provide > address space to their customers (usually for a fee) whether in > relationship with connectivity services or as a separate product. > > Some RIR subscribers are end users and simply use the address space they > receive from the RIR directly. > > Every RIR except AFRINIC has an inter-RIR transfer policy at this point. > Yes, the recipient needs to show need in the case of an inter-RIR transfer. > > There are many different reasons organizations want to be able to engage > in inter-RIR transfers and I enumerated several of them. You chose to focus > on a single one because that is the one you hope to be able to twist into > something sinister. > > quote: ( *.... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who > are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that > this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This > allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction > that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never > received serious attention in any other RIR.) *Answer: AfriNIC got the > smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing a policy > "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell will be > suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the scarcity > of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and retrieval > is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you are > referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and have > ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable to > AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do such, > with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future of > Africa. > > > If you are opposed to an inter-RIR transfer policy, then so be it. That > has little or nothing to do with whether or not existing addresses > registered to an organization by AFRINIC are allowed to be used outside of > AFRICA or not. > > However, the policy that does exist now clearly does allow AFRINIC > addresses to be utilized out of region virtually without restriction. A > plain text reading of section 6 of the bylaws makes this quite clear. A > plain text reading of the CPM finds only one place where this is > contradicted and it applies ONLY to addresses issued after the activation > of the Soft Landing policy. > > If you want to conduct legitimate audits, feel free. If you wish to abide > by the legitimate outcome of those audits when they show legitimate > utilization according to the CPM, the RSA, and the bylaws, I?ll fully > support that. However, use out of region does not violate any of the terms > in any of those documents unless the addresses were issued to the > organization after the activation of the soft landing policy. > > AFRINIC is free to enforce any policy which has been adopted by the > community and ratified by the board. There is no policy restricting the > location of utilization of addresses which meets that test at this time. > > *quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the > geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation > from you.)* I did not make any statement about winning on geographical > grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not say? who is > misinforming now? > > > You stated: "AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here > to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then > why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the > Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod > have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the > Judicial System. ? > > Your claim is that AFRINIC should have already lost all cases on > geographic basis if my statement was true. I pointed out that AFRINIC has > neither lost nor won because the cases that relate to this matter have not > yet concluded. I did not put words in your mouth, I responded to what you > actually said. > > > quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir if you > really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft landing was > easy. > > > ARIN never passed a soft landing policy and it worked out quite well > there, IMHO. > > However, the only mention I have made regarding soft landing in any of > these statements is to mention that it is the only policy with geographical > restrictions on utilization codified in the policy. I?ve also pointed out > that said policy does not apply to any addresses issued to Cloud Innovation. > > > *quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or > client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the > list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.)* did i > say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining and > dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is > revolving because of you and around you? I said : *Anyone *can convince *himself > with any lie* and convince the minions involved in this issue who have > been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie), did you see you or > me or owen or amin in this statement? > > > You made the following direct statement in a message sent directly to me > as well as an open list: > "Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions > involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to > spread lie)? > > In context, it is quite clear you were intending to level this as a direct > accusation towards me. Your use of weasel words and attempted evasions > notwithstanding, at least I have the courage to own what I say and take > responsibility for it. > > > *quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. > This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and > is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) *Again: Did I say > you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I mention you? > > > You said: "When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should > provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the > table corrupting the members to buy Votes.? > > You said this in an email directed to me and copied to an open list. > > So in effect, yes, you did claim I published a video, you did point a > finger presumably at me, and by having my name as the target of your email, > yes, you did mention me for all practical purposes. > > My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on their > website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and through > a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the > embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African > Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan > or the spokesperson of PTA? > > > In terms of the subsequent emails in this discussion, you put my name in > the To: field of your email. If you didn?t intend to involve me, why did > you do so? > In terms of the original message, you made a public comment about the > letter being sent on behalf of a ?fraudulent and misleading organization?, > so I felt obliged to point out your own misleading information that you > have attempted to promulgate in this same forum and with your own misguided > and misleading video. > > I will note, that you did not address the following component of my > previous message: > > You wrote: > > If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your > good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want > and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as > the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. > > > To which I responded: > > What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be > specific. > > I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. > > > You carefully avoided answering this? Is it perhaps because you have no > answer here? You could not find an actual misquote? > > I find three messages into this conversation that this statement: "I have > no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is > justifying a wrong cause.? > is truly telling as apparently I am not such a second party and therefore > perhaps you are admitting by your actions that I do not actually have a > wrong cause. If so, this is progress. > > Owen > > > > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong wrote: > >> >> >> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >> >> Owen, >> >> Don?t rush, all in good time. >> >> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no single >> piece of evidence! >> >> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh >> your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the >> proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which >> are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all >> cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. >> >> >> *Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their >>> underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market.* Other >>> companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once >>> the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some >>> companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple >>> RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons >>> that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction >>> on usage. >> >> >> If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of >>> companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued >>> space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be >>> an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa >>> is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC >>> and has never received serious attention in any other RIR. >> >> >> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical >> restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. >> >> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, as >> a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa >> restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of >> the soft landing policy. >> >> What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend their >> rights under the contract they signed against a board that is misconstruing >> the bylaws and acting outside of its authority. >> >> The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few procedural >> victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a series of >> injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal actions it >> has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. Most of the >> cases are still undecided. >> >> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions >> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to >> spread lie) >> >> >> I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This >> statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, >> frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. >> >> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide >> evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table >> corrupting the members to buy Votes. >> >> >> I?ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to someone >> else here? Perhaps yourself? >> >> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your >> good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want >> and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as >> the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >> >> >> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and >> be specific. >> >> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >> >> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which >> company you are talking about?! >> >> >> I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your >> statements. I thought that was clear from the context. >> >> Owen >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>> >>> Dear members, >>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who >>> are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. >>> >>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of >>> Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan >>> tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >>> >>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan >>> telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >>> >>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least >>> communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty >>> as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the >>> alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a >>> fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's >>> IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last >>> time I checked, is not an African country. >>> >>> >>> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses are >>> somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or CPM >>> says so? >>> >>> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and >>> corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one >>> engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hjul.paul at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 13:12:55 2022 From: hjul.paul at gmail.com (Paul Hjul) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 15:12:55 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Interim order of June 14th 2022 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am again at a loss as to whether you are being ignorant or disingenuous. For present purposes though lets assume that what you are trying to say is "but its an interim order" The meaning of interim isn't really difficult. Of relevance is that an interim order has effect. The website was updated since the order was granted and is updated regularly. I can understand not changing letterheads to indicate a change of something by virtue of an interim order but on the language of the order given by the Company additional rather than less caution is called for. Are you trying to say that because it is an interim order that it will lapse and so the Company should just wait it out? That sort of attitude is exactly what gets contempt proceedings happening and is a prime example of why Afrinic needs to stop allowing itself to be influenced by the brigade whose sentiment is to promote lawlessness. The fact is that right now and until the court makes a further decosopm Do you really want Afrinic to function without a board that can't muster quorum for the next three months? Remember the second part of the order precludes vacancies being filled. So unless the court appoints directors you have a company of the nature of Afrinic with three directors. Most immediately I am trying to figure out how the Company is able to take a decision to defend the matter in a period of time during which no board meeting could be held, postponed for a day and resolved to oppose. The fact that the opposition is irrational and digs a deeper hole is a second problem, and based on the fact that of the three people one voted against the unlawful extension it will be impossible to argue that it is a rationally made and considered decision. More likely than not no actual thought, minuted and considered decision is made. But website conveys that its been decided to "resist" an application that stops the board from having somebody whose term ended from through coup keeping their spot (again the term coup is from a member of the board at the time, its not my characterization) Even if - and there are for reasons already canvassed a lot of reasons why the argument allowing for a reduced quorum to meet is a really weak position to take - an ability under the Bylaws to convene a meeting, not have quorum and work with the reduced quorum of 3 the exercise involves postponements, minuting and all manner of opportunity to trip up. It is most probable that the meeting held after the AGMM will be set aside if anybody asks for it to be so set aside by a court - - unfortunately the minutes are not yet posted if for no other reason than the board was woefully malformed at the time of the meeting and somebody not properly on the Board was appointed vice-chair. One simple question is why should a person have to get the brazenly unlawful resolution set aside and why should the Company end up liable for those costs. The directors of the Company and its advising staff have a fiduciary duty not to waste the Company's money by litigating in support of the indefensible. Unless the three individuals who would make up the board are going to put the interests of the Company and the interests of the members ahead of some misguided rot that plagues the organization and actually sit down with legal representatives with a view to getting the Company back on track (rather than how to spend insane amounts of money on fruitless and wasteful defending the indefensible) things aren't going to get better. The membership rejected the financial statements and there are no appointed auditors.The suggestion on this list has been to relocate the company to a jurisdiction that would presumably turn a blind eye to the shanigans of the Company. As has been pointed out repeatedly in order for Afrinic to take up domicile elsewhere it would need to resolve the issues it has created for itself and remain solvent or it would have to wind up and be re-established which would mean going through an ICP-2 like process. On the other hand if the registered members step out and have their lawyers say "it was wrong for the Company to act in bad faith, we have a fiduciary responsibility to ensure that the Company not persist in courses of action that is unlawful, we would like the courts and/or members to sort out the mess" not only would many members provide the Company with considerable assistance but within a matter of days a lawful and rational path forward will be plotted together, rather than what is likely to be at least two years of continued ugliness - the sort of ugliness that hinders investment in infrastructure which is the main obstacle to increasing connectivity in Africa. Even if they simply came out and said "the unlawful purported extension was wrong and we need the consequences of that to be sorted out" (and remember of the 4 directors . The problem quite simply is that because they know that people like you will viciously attack them if they were to do the right thing and this is the heart of the problem at Afrinic. On Thu, 16 Jun 2022 at 21:16, Noah wrote: > > On Thu, 16 Jun 2022, 17:42 Paul Hjul, wrote: > >> Considering that its been a day since the order >> > > https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/interim > > Noah > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From abscoco at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 21:19:06 2022 From: abscoco at gmail.com (Sylvain Baya) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 22:19:06 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: <582E1C7E-9BAF-4899-B326-76882D03FB45@delong.com> References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> <8C28117D-C55F-4F4B-9C33-777A21EF5AFA@arin.net> <582E1C7E-9BAF-4899-B326-76882D03FB45@delong.com> Message-ID: Dear AfriNIC's Community, Hope this email finds you in good health! warning: long email; where i mostly pasted sections 4 & 6 of AfriNIC's RSA. Because it appears that reading full RSA is mandatory for AfriNIC's Resource Members (RM)! keep reading, please :-D Please see my comments below, inline... Le vendredi 17 juin 2022, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> a ?crit : > > > On Jun 15, 2022, at 13:07 , John Curran wrote: > > > > On 15 Jun 2022, at 1:30 PM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > ... > AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical > restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. > > I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, as > a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa > restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of > the soft landing policy. > > > > Owen - > > Since you?re opining on such matters, do you believe a "plain text > reading" of the applicable documents allows AFRINIC to restrict use to the > same purpose for which they were originally requested and issued? > > > Unless notification was provided pursuant to RSA clause 4(iv)(3), yes. > > Hi Owen, Thanks for your email, brother. You probably meant 4(c)(iv)(3)... ...i recall that the question is about keeping *the purpose*; through the CoS (Conditions of Service) [1,2]: [...] *4. Conditions of service* (a) Where a member, receiving service under an existing agreement applies for a change or a variation of the type of such service which AFRINIC has been supplying to it, evaluation of such a ?change request? will be effected in terms of the provisions of clause (2) of the present agreement. (b) Cooperation: (i) An applicant receiving service under an agreement is at all times bound to provide to AFRINIC such information, assistance and cooperation as may be reasonably required by the latter in the provision of the service. (ii) Such request for information may also be made where AFRINIC is investigating (reviewing) the applicant?s utilisation of the number resources already assigned to it. (iii) Failure by the applicant, to comply with a request made at above may: (1) entail revocation or withholding of the service supplied by AFRINIC; (2) be taken into account by AFRINIC in its evaluation for further and future assignment or allocation of number resources; (3) lead to the closure of an LIR and termination of the agreement by AFRINIC. (c) Applicant?s use of the service The Applicant hereby irrevocably: (i) Commits itself to using the services solely for the purpose for which it was requested. (ii) Commits itself to using the services in full and unreserved compliance with AFRINIC?s policies and mandate: (1) without knowingly infringing the rights and/or interests of other users of such services, (2) within the limits of applicable laws and/or regulations of the jurisdiction in which it operates. (iii) Further acknowledges that AFRINIC may at its own discretion and for good cause and common Interest of the stability of the Internet, investigate or cause to be investigated, the Applicant?s use of the services by the appropriate and competent authority(ies). (iv) Hereby binds itself to: (1) notify AFRINIC whenever its circumstances so change that it is no longer in need of the Internet number resources supplied or being supplied to it under a Registration Service Agreement; (2) surrender to AFRINIC within 15 days of the service of the notice at (iv)(1) above the Internet number resources supplied or being supplied to it under a Registration Service Agreement; (3) update any data submitted to AFRINIC in the context of: a. an application for a Registration Service Agreement or b. the renewal of any Registration Service Agreement whenever such data have been the subject of amendment, change or have become outdated. (d) AFRINIC will comply with all applicable data protection and privacy laws of the Republic of Mauritius in its handling of data and information submitted to it by the Applicant in furtherance of an application for services and use thereof. [...] __ [1]: https://www.afrinic.net/membership/agreements#rsa [2]: https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/services/afrinic-rsa-en-201801.pdf BtW, first, the purpose isn't still the same. Right? > > > My understanding is that in the case of Cloud Innovation, this requirement > was met by updates to WHOIS, as no other process for providing said updates > is provided in the RSA, CPM, or bylaws. > > > ...what's the provision in either legal and policy documents which could imply that a justification of change in initial declared/commited purpose might be done with simple IRR database updates? ...i pasted that whole section of the RSA because that very AfriNIC's RSA appears to be one year validity doc. So! a resource member representative should read it at least once each year :-) Now! i want to recall also section 6 of AfriNIC's RSA [1,2]: [...] 6. Acknowledgements The Applicant: (a) Acknowledges that it has read, understood and taken cognizance of all its terms and conditions and further binds itself to strictly and unreservedly comply therewith. (b) Having taken cognizance of the preamble of the present agreement, fully and unreservedly subscribe thereto with the clear understanding and acceptance of AFRINIC?s critical role in the stability and the continued evolution of the Internet as agreed by its members and the community in terms of adopted policies. (c) Acknowledges that it will at all times use the services and number resources allocated or assigned to it in strict compliance with all adopted policies. (d) Acknowledges: (i) that this agreement shall at all times be subjected to adopted policies; (ii) that this agreement shall at all times be subjected to such global policies, adopted and to be adopted by all RIRs, which have first been approved by the AFRINIC Internet Community through its policy development process; (iii) that it is bestowed with an exclusive right of use of those number resources within the ambit of the ?need? which it has justified in its application and for no other purpose during the currency of the present agreement; (iv) the number resources, the subject matter of the present agreement, are not property (real, personal or intellectual); (v) that the transfer of number resources is strictly prohibited, except in the event of the Applicant becoming the subject of merger and/or acquisition proceedings, or where such transfer is effected in compliance with adopted policies; (vi) that any request for transfer of number resources for the reason prescribed in sub clause (v) above must be accompanied by all relevant certified legal documents; (vii) that in the event that it commits a breach in the use of number resources allocated or assigned to it, it shall: (1) remedy the breach, following directions from AFRINIC, and/or (2) return the affected number resources to AFRINIC. For the removal of doubt, failure to take remedial action within a reasonable time will entitle AFRINIC to terminate this agreement. 7. Representations and warranties The parties, each, represent and warrant that: it has full power and authority to enter into the present agreement and perform all the obligations listed down herein. (a) It shall perform its obligations in compliance with all legal provisions (regulations, directives, legislation) existing in the jurisdiction wherein it operates as well under the laws of the Republic of Mauritius which shall govern this agreement. (b) The present agreement constitutes a legal, valid and binding obligation on it and that same shall be enforced in accordance with its terms and conditions. [...] imho! maybe for the sake of clarification, AfriNIC needs a policy to deal more precisely with the "documentation & lifecycle of the comited purpose of a resource member." ...if anyone want to write a DPP (Draft Policy Proposal) to fill that *need*; then feel free to reach out ASAP. Shalom, --sb. > > Owen > > > -- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]| Subscribe to Mailing List: __ #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Sat Jun 18 06:29:59 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 23:29:59 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 16, 2022, at 22:26 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > I am not replying to this news paper, nor I have time to read it all. > > I will also ask you to remember your statement here, ( the resource holder are pushing for a transfer policy) i will also prove you wrong! I look forward to your attempt to do so. I find it amusing how you have cherry picked what you respond to while ignoring the most salient points in the prior messages to the point where when I limit it to the salient points, you choose to ignore the entire message rather than make a cogent response. Owen > > On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 4:40 AM Owen DeLong > wrote: > > >> On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:00 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >> >> Owen, >> for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red from your ext >> >> quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) you used the term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever the term is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an application with the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, just like when you apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let me remind us here of the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another member. this step was taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own majority of the IPV4, and to regulate the transfers and continue to monitor the ipv4, closing the door on black and grey market. let me remind us also that such cases peculiar to need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever reason the company might be dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip resources are assigned "not sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need. > > Neither Larus nor Cloud Innovation is selling resources received from AFRINIC? I stated that many other resource holders wish to do so and that is one of the reasons that those resource holders are pushing for a transfer policy. > > This is not inconsistent, it is your inability to differentiate and/or your failure to look past your efforts to ascribe the most sinister possible motives to every statement I make. > > The RIR doesn?t govern anything. The community governs the RIR and the RIR is supposed to administer the registry according to the policies set by the community and according to its bylaws which are controlled by the membership of the RIR. > > Perhaps it is this fundamental misunderstanding of who is specifically supposed to be empowered in the governance of the internet and as a result the RIRs that is driving some of your other misstatements. > > For clarity: > > ICANN/PTI in its role performing the IANA operates the central registry for IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses, and ASNs (among other things). It does so according to global policies which are set by the RIRs acting in concert through the Address Supporting Organization, specifically the ASO AC, which is synonymous with the NRO NC. > > Each RIR receives resources from the IANA central registry according to its justified need and pursuant to those policies mentioned above. > > Each RIR distributes those resources to its subscribers (members or not, depending on the RIR?s specific policies) according to the policies set in the RIR by its community and according to the bylaws of the RIR set by its members. > > Each RIR is expected to operate within the policies created by its membership and according to its bylaws. When an RIR fails to do so, it becomes far more dangerous than is expected. > > Some RIR subscribers are LIRs (Local Internet Registries). LIRs provide address space to their customers (usually for a fee) whether in relationship with connectivity services or as a separate product. > > Some RIR subscribers are end users and simply use the address space they receive from the RIR directly. > > Every RIR except AFRINIC has an inter-RIR transfer policy at this point. Yes, the recipient needs to show need in the case of an inter-RIR transfer. > > There are many different reasons organizations want to be able to engage in inter-RIR transfers and I enumerated several of them. You chose to focus on a single one because that is the one you hope to be able to twist into something sinister. > >> quote: ( .... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR.) Answer: AfriNIC got the smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing a policy "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell will be suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the scarcity of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and retrieval is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you are referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and have ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable to AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do such, with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future of Africa. > > If you are opposed to an inter-RIR transfer policy, then so be it. That has little or nothing to do with whether or not existing addresses registered to an organization by AFRINIC are allowed to be used outside of AFRICA or not. > > However, the policy that does exist now clearly does allow AFRINIC addresses to be utilized out of region virtually without restriction. A plain text reading of section 6 of the bylaws makes this quite clear. A plain text reading of the CPM finds only one place where this is contradicted and it applies ONLY to addresses issued after the activation of the Soft Landing policy. > > If you want to conduct legitimate audits, feel free. If you wish to abide by the legitimate outcome of those audits when they show legitimate utilization according to the CPM, the RSA, and the bylaws, I?ll fully support that. However, use out of region does not violate any of the terms in any of those documents unless the addresses were issued to the organization after the activation of the soft landing policy. > > AFRINIC is free to enforce any policy which has been adopted by the community and ratified by the board. There is no policy restricting the location of utilization of addresses which meets that test at this time. > >> quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you.) I did not make any statement about winning on geographical grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not say? who is misinforming now? > > You stated: "AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. ? > > Your claim is that AFRINIC should have already lost all cases on geographic basis if my statement was true. I pointed out that AFRINIC has neither lost nor won because the cases that relate to this matter have not yet concluded. I did not put words in your mouth, I responded to what you actually said. > >> >> quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir if you really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft landing was easy. > > ARIN never passed a soft landing policy and it worked out quite well there, IMHO. > > However, the only mention I have made regarding soft landing in any of these statements is to mention that it is the only policy with geographical restrictions on utilization codified in the policy. I?ve also pointed out that said policy does not apply to any addresses issued to Cloud Innovation. > >> >> quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.) did i say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining and dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is revolving because of you and around you? I said : Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie), did you see you or me or owen or amin in this statement? > > You made the following direct statement in a message sent directly to me as well as an open list: > "Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie)? > > In context, it is quite clear you were intending to level this as a direct accusation towards me. Your use of weasel words and attempted evasions notwithstanding, at least I have the courage to own what I say and take responsibility for it. > > >> quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) Again: Did I say you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I mention you? > > You said: "When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes.? > > You said this in an email directed to me and copied to an open list. > > So in effect, yes, you did claim I published a video, you did point a finger presumably at me, and by having my name as the target of your email, yes, you did mention me for all practical purposes. > >> My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on their website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and through a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan or the spokesperson of PTA? > > In terms of the subsequent emails in this discussion, you put my name in the To: field of your email. If you didn?t intend to involve me, why did you do so? > In terms of the original message, you made a public comment about the letter being sent on behalf of a ?fraudulent and misleading organization?, so I felt obliged to point out your own misleading information that you have attempted to promulgate in this same forum and with your own misguided and misleading video. > > I will note, that you did not address the following component of my previous message: > > You wrote: >>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >> > To which I responded: >> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be specific. >> >> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. > > > You carefully avoided answering this? Is it perhaps because you have no answer here? You could not find an actual misquote? > > I find three messages into this conversation that this statement: "I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause.? > is truly telling as apparently I am not such a second party and therefore perhaps you are admitting by your actions that I do not actually have a wrong cause. If so, this is progress. > > Owen > >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong > wrote: >> >> >>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>> >>> Owen, >>> >>> Don?t rush, all in good time. >>> >>> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no single piece of evidence! >>> >>> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. >> >> Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. Other companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction on usage. >> >> If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR. >> >> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. >> >> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of the soft landing policy. >> >> What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend their rights under the contract they signed against a board that is misconstruing the bylaws and acting outside of its authority. >> >> The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few procedural victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a series of injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal actions it has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. Most of the cases are still undecided. >> >>> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie) >> >> I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. >> >>> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes. >> >> I?ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to someone else here? Perhaps yourself? >> >>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >> >> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be specific. >> >> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >> >>> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which company you are talking about?! >> >> I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your statements. I thought that was clear from the context. >> >> Owen >> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear members, >>>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. >>>> >>>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >>>> >>>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >>>> >>>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >>>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >>>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last time I checked, is not an African country. >>> >>> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or CPM says so? >>> >>> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >>> >>> Owen >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Sat Jun 18 06:38:29 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 23:38:29 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> <8C28117D-C55F-4F4B-9C33-777A21EF5AFA@arin.net> <582E1C7E-9BAF-4899-B326-76882D03FB45@delong.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 17, 2022, at 14:19 , Sylvain Baya wrote: > > Dear AfriNIC's Community, > > Hope this email finds you in good health! > > warning: long email; where i mostly pasted > sections 4 & 6 of AfriNIC's RSA. Because it appears > that reading full RSA is mandatory for AfriNIC's > Resource Members (RM)! keep reading, please :-D > > > Please see my comments below, inline... > > Le vendredi 17 juin 2022, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > a ?crit : > > >> On Jun 15, 2022, at 13:07 , John Curran > wrote: >> >> >> >>> On 15 Jun 2022, at 1:30 PM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: >>> ... >>> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. >>> >>> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of the soft landing policy. >> >> >> Owen - >> >> Since you?re opining on such matters, do you believe a "plain text reading" of the applicable documents allows AFRINIC to restrict use to the same purpose for which they were originally requested and issued? > > Unless notification was provided pursuant to RSA clause 4(iv)(3), yes. > > > > Hi Owen, > Thanks for your email, brother. > > You probably meant 4(c)(iv)(3)... > > ...i recall that the question is about keeping > *the purpose*; through the CoS (Conditions > of Service) [1,2]: > > > [...] > *4. Conditions of service* > > (a) Where a member, receiving service under an existing agreement applies for a change or a variation of the > type of such service which AFRINIC has been supplying to it, evaluation of such a ?change request? will be effected in > terms of the provisions of clause (2) of the present agreement. > (b) Cooperation: > (i) An applicant receiving service under an agreement is at all times bound to provide to AFRINIC such > information, assistance and cooperation as may be reasonably required by the latter in the provision > of the service. > (ii) Such request for information may also be made where AFRINIC is investigating (reviewing) the > applicant?s utilisation of the number resources already assigned to it. > (iii) Failure by the applicant, to comply with a request made at above may: > (1) entail revocation or withholding of the service supplied by AFRINIC; > (2) be taken into account by AFRINIC in its evaluation for further and future assignment or > allocation of number resources; > (3) lead to the closure of an LIR and termination of the agreement by AFRINIC. > (c) Applicant?s use of the service > The Applicant hereby irrevocably: > (i) Commits itself to using the services solely for the purpose for which it was requested. > (ii) Commits itself to using the services in full and unreserved compliance with AFRINIC?s policies and > mandate: > (1) without knowingly infringing the rights and/or interests of other users of such services, > (2) within the limits of applicable laws and/or regulations of the jurisdiction in which it operates. > (iii) Further acknowledges that AFRINIC may at its own discretion and for good cause and common > Interest of the stability of the Internet, investigate or cause to be investigated, the Applicant?s use of > the services by the appropriate and competent authority(ies). > (iv) Hereby binds itself to: > (1) notify AFRINIC whenever its circumstances so change that it is no longer in need of the > Internet number resources supplied or being supplied to it under a Registration Service > Agreement; > (2) surrender to AFRINIC within 15 days of the service of the notice at (iv)(1) above the Internet > number resources supplied or being supplied to it under a Registration Service Agreement; > (3) update any data submitted to AFRINIC in the context of: > a. an application for a Registration Service Agreement or > b. the renewal of any Registration Service Agreement > whenever such data have been the subject of amendment, change or have become outdated. > (d) AFRINIC will comply with all applicable data protection and privacy laws of the Republic of Mauritius in its > handling of data and information submitted to it by the Applicant in furtherance of an application for services > and use thereof. > [...] > > __ > [1]: https://www.afrinic.net/membership/agreements#rsa > [2]: https://www.afrinic.net/ast/pdf/services/afrinic-rsa-en-201801.pdf > > > BtW, first, the purpose isn't still the same. Right? > > > > > > My understanding is that in the case of Cloud Innovation, this requirement was met by updates to WHOIS, as no other process for providing said updates is provided in the RSA, CPM, or bylaws. > > > > > ...what's the provision in either legal and policy > documents which could imply that a justification > of change in initial declared/commited purpose > might be done with simple IRR database updates? WHOIS is not an IRR database. It is, for all intents and purposes the public registry database where all changes to the registrations of a set of IP addresses are maintained. > ...i pasted that whole section of the RSA because > that very AfriNIC's RSA appears to be one year > validity doc. Yes, but pursuant to its terms, it is automatically renewed on a year to year basis so long as the registrant continues to meet certain criteria (sends notice of intent to renew, pays bill, etc.). > So! a resource member representative should > read it at least once each year :-) Not sure I entirely agree with that? I think it is sufficient to read it if and when it is amended. > Now! i want to recall also section 6 of AfriNIC's > RSA [1,2]: > > > [...] > 6. Acknowledgements > > The Applicant: > > (a) Acknowledges that it has read, understood and taken cognizance of all its terms and conditions and further > binds itself to strictly and unreservedly comply therewith. > (b) Having taken cognizance of the preamble of the present agreement, fully and unreservedly subscribe thereto > with the clear understanding and acceptance of AFRINIC?s critical role in the stability and the continued > evolution of the Internet as agreed by its members and the community in terms of adopted policies. > (c) Acknowledges that it will at all times use the services and number resources allocated or assigned to it in > strict compliance with all adopted policies. > (d) Acknowledges: > (i) that this agreement shall at all times be subjected to adopted policies; > (ii) that this agreement shall at all times be subjected to such global policies, adopted and to be adopted > by all RIRs, which have first been approved by the AFRINIC Internet Community through its policy > development process; > (iii) that it is bestowed with an exclusive right of use of those number resources within the ambit of the > ?need? which it has justified in its application and for no other purpose during the currency of the > present agreement; > (iv) the number resources, the subject matter of the present agreement, are not property (real, personal > or intellectual); > (v) that the transfer of number resources is strictly prohibited, except in the event of the Applicant > becoming the subject of merger and/or acquisition proceedings, or where such transfer is effected in > compliance with adopted policies; > (vi) that any request for transfer of number resources for the reason prescribed in sub clause (v) above > must be accompanied by all relevant certified legal documents; > (vii) that in the event that it commits a breach in the use of number resources allocated or assigned to it, > it shall: > (1) remedy the breach, following directions from AFRINIC, and/or > (2) return the affected number resources to AFRINIC. > For the removal of doubt, failure to take remedial action within a reasonable time will entitle AFRINIC > to terminate this agreement. > 7. Representations and warranties > The parties, each, represent and warrant that: it has full power and authority to enter into the present agreement and > perform all the obligations listed down herein. > (a) It shall perform its obligations in compliance with all legal provisions (regulations, directives, legislation) > existing in the jurisdiction wherein it operates as well under the laws of the Republic of Mauritius which shall > govern this agreement. > (b) The present agreement constitutes a legal, valid and binding obligation on it and that same shall be enforced > in accordance with its terms and conditions. > [...] > > > > imho! maybe for the sake of clarification, > AfriNIC needs a policy to deal more precisely > with the "documentation & lifecycle of the > comited purpose of a resource member." > > ...if anyone want to write a DPP (Draft Policy > Proposal) to fill that *need*; then feel free to > reach out ASAP. I agree that AFRINIC has several areas where they are deficient in terms of the documentation requirements. I?m more interested in getting the organization back on track in terms of following its own rules and having a board that feels a need to conform to the law, be responsible and responsive to the membership, and follow the governing documents as written than in worrying about these more trivial concerns. Once we have a legitimate board at the helm of AFRINIC and replace senior management with leadership committed to doing the job in an honest and forthright manner, these other issues will be much easier to manage. Owen > > Shalom, > --sb. > > > > > Owen > > > > > -- > Best Regards ! > __ > baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]|> > Subscribe to Mailing List: > > __ > #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? > ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? > ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Sat Jun 18 07:00:37 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 08:00:37 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> Message-ID: Good Morning Owen, There is something i wanted to ask you about, but please give me a short answer and straight forward: In your opinion, an organization that is offering bribe to people in order to get their votes, in order to influence the outcome of the elections to her favor in Camaros, - will that organization be trustworthy ? - Will that organization have any right again to lecture about corruption while it is promoting the culture of corruption (allegedly as per above if it is true)? - will you trust any word from that organization? - will you have faith and rely on their intensions that they are upright? I am not pointing any finger at you , rather i am just seeking your opinion pls. On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:30 AM Owen DeLong wrote: > > > On Jun 16, 2022, at 22:26 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > I am not replying to this news paper, nor I have time to read it all. > > I will also ask you to remember your statement here, ( the resource holder > are pushing for a transfer policy) i will also prove you wrong! > > > I look forward to your attempt to do so. > > I find it amusing how you have cherry picked what you respond to while > ignoring the most salient points in the prior messages to the point where > when I limit it to the salient points, you choose to ignore the entire > message rather than make a cogent response. > > Owen > > > On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 4:40 AM Owen DeLong wrote: > >> >> >> On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:00 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >> >> Owen, >> for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red from >> your ext >> >> *quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their >> underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) *you used the >> term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever the term >> is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an application with >> the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, just like when you >> apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let me remind us here of >> the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another member. this step was >> taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own majority of the IPV4, and to >> regulate the transfers and continue to monitor the ipv4, closing the door >> on black and grey market. let me remind us also that such cases peculiar to >> need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever reason the company might be >> dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip resources are assigned "not >> sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need. >> >> >> Neither Larus nor Cloud Innovation is selling resources received from >> AFRINIC? I stated that many other resource holders wish to do so and that >> is one of the reasons that those resource holders are pushing for a >> transfer policy. >> >> This is not inconsistent, it is your inability to differentiate and/or >> your failure to look past your efforts to ascribe the most sinister >> possible motives to every statement I make. >> >> The RIR doesn?t govern anything. The community governs the RIR and the >> RIR is supposed to administer the registry according to the policies set by >> the community and according to its bylaws which are controlled by the >> membership of the RIR. >> >> Perhaps it is this fundamental misunderstanding of who is specifically >> supposed to be empowered in the governance of the internet and as a result >> the RIRs that is driving some of your other misstatements. >> >> For clarity: >> >> ICANN/PTI in its role performing the IANA operates the central registry >> for IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses, and ASNs (among other things). It does >> so according to global policies which are set by the RIRs acting in concert >> through the Address Supporting Organization, specifically the ASO AC, which >> is synonymous with the NRO NC. >> >> Each RIR receives resources from the IANA central registry according to >> its justified need and pursuant to those policies mentioned above. >> >> Each RIR distributes those resources to its subscribers (members or not, >> depending on the RIR?s specific policies) according to the policies set in >> the RIR by its community and according to the bylaws of the RIR set by its >> members. >> >> Each RIR is expected to operate within the policies created by its >> membership and according to its bylaws. When an RIR fails to do so, it >> becomes far more dangerous than is expected. >> >> Some RIR subscribers are LIRs (Local Internet Registries). LIRs provide >> address space to their customers (usually for a fee) whether in >> relationship with connectivity services or as a separate product. >> >> Some RIR subscribers are end users and simply use the address space they >> receive from the RIR directly. >> >> Every RIR except AFRINIC has an inter-RIR transfer policy at this point. >> Yes, the recipient needs to show need in the case of an inter-RIR transfer. >> >> There are many different reasons organizations want to be able to engage >> in inter-RIR transfers and I enumerated several of them. You chose to focus >> on a single one because that is the one you hope to be able to twist into >> something sinister. >> >> quote: ( *.... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who >> are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that >> this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This >> allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction >> that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never >> received serious attention in any other RIR.) *Answer: AfriNIC got the >> smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing a policy >> "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell will be >> suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the scarcity >> of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and retrieval >> is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you are >> referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and have >> ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable to >> AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do such, >> with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future of >> Africa. >> >> >> If you are opposed to an inter-RIR transfer policy, then so be it. That >> has little or nothing to do with whether or not existing addresses >> registered to an organization by AFRINIC are allowed to be used outside of >> AFRICA or not. >> >> However, the policy that does exist now clearly does allow AFRINIC >> addresses to be utilized out of region virtually without restriction. A >> plain text reading of section 6 of the bylaws makes this quite clear. A >> plain text reading of the CPM finds only one place where this is >> contradicted and it applies ONLY to addresses issued after the activation >> of the Soft Landing policy. >> >> If you want to conduct legitimate audits, feel free. If you wish to abide >> by the legitimate outcome of those audits when they show legitimate >> utilization according to the CPM, the RSA, and the bylaws, I?ll fully >> support that. However, use out of region does not violate any of the terms >> in any of those documents unless the addresses were issued to the >> organization after the activation of the soft landing policy. >> >> AFRINIC is free to enforce any policy which has been adopted by the >> community and ratified by the board. There is no policy restricting the >> location of utilization of addresses which meets that test at this time. >> >> *quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the >> geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation >> from you.)* I did not make any statement about winning on geographical >> grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not say? who is >> misinforming now? >> >> >> You stated: "AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me >> here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa >> then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the >> Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod >> have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the >> Judicial System. ? >> >> Your claim is that AFRINIC should have already lost all cases on >> geographic basis if my statement was true. I pointed out that AFRINIC has >> neither lost nor won because the cases that relate to this matter have not >> yet concluded. I did not put words in your mouth, I responded to what you >> actually said. >> >> >> quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir if you >> really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft landing was >> easy. >> >> >> ARIN never passed a soft landing policy and it worked out quite well >> there, IMHO. >> >> However, the only mention I have made regarding soft landing in any of >> these statements is to mention that it is the only policy with geographical >> restrictions on utilization codified in the policy. I?ve also pointed out >> that said policy does not apply to any addresses issued to Cloud Innovation. >> >> >> *quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or >> client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the >> list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.)* did i >> say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining and >> dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is >> revolving because of you and around you? I said : *Anyone *can convince *himself >> with any lie* and convince the minions involved in this issue who have >> been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie), did you see you or >> me or owen or amin in this statement? >> >> >> You made the following direct statement in a message sent directly to me >> as well as an open list: >> "Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions >> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to >> spread lie)? >> >> In context, it is quite clear you were intending to level this as a >> direct accusation towards me. Your use of weasel words and attempted >> evasions notwithstanding, at least I have the courage to own what I say and >> take responsibility for it. >> >> >> *quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or >> client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the >> list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) *Again: >> Did I say you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I >> mention you? >> >> >> You said: "When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should >> provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the >> table corrupting the members to buy Votes.? >> >> You said this in an email directed to me and copied to an open list. >> >> So in effect, yes, you did claim I published a video, you did point a >> finger presumably at me, and by having my name as the target of your email, >> yes, you did mention me for all practical purposes. >> >> My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on their >> website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and through >> a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the >> embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African >> Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan >> or the spokesperson of PTA? >> >> >> In terms of the subsequent emails in this discussion, you put my name in >> the To: field of your email. If you didn?t intend to involve me, why did >> you do so? >> In terms of the original message, you made a public comment about the >> letter being sent on behalf of a ?fraudulent and misleading organization?, >> so I felt obliged to point out your own misleading information that you >> have attempted to promulgate in this same forum and with your own misguided >> and misleading video. >> >> I will note, that you did not address the following component of my >> previous message: >> >> You wrote: >> >> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your >> good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want >> and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as >> the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >> >> >> To which I responded: >> >> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and >> be specific. >> >> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >> >> >> You carefully avoided answering this? Is it perhaps because you have no >> answer here? You could not find an actual misquote? >> >> I find three messages into this conversation that this statement: "I have >> no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is >> justifying a wrong cause.? >> is truly telling as apparently I am not such a second party and therefore >> perhaps you are admitting by your actions that I do not actually have a >> wrong cause. If so, this is progress. >> >> Owen >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>> >>> Owen, >>> >>> Don?t rush, all in good time. >>> >>> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no single >>> piece of evidence! >>> >>> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh >>> your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the >>> proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which >>> are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all >>> cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. >>> >>> >>> *Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their >>>> underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market.* Other >>>> companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once >>>> the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some >>>> companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple >>>> RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons >>>> that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction >>>> on usage. >>> >>> >>> If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a number >>>> of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued >>>> space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be >>>> an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa >>>> is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC >>>> and has never received serious attention in any other RIR. >>> >>> >>> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical >>> restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. >>> >>> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, >>> as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa >>> restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of >>> the soft landing policy. >>> >>> What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend their >>> rights under the contract they signed against a board that is misconstruing >>> the bylaws and acting outside of its authority. >>> >>> The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few procedural >>> victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a series of >>> injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal actions it >>> has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. Most of the >>> cases are still undecided. >>> >>> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions >>> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to >>> spread lie) >>> >>> >>> I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This >>> statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, >>> frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. >>> >>> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide >>> evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table >>> corrupting the members to buy Votes. >>> >>> >>> I?ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to someone >>> else here? Perhaps yourself? >>> >>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your >>> good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want >>> and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as >>> the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>> >>> >>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and >>> be specific. >>> >>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>> >>> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which >>> company you are talking about?! >>> >>> >>> I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your >>> statements. I thought that was clear from the context. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear members, >>>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who >>>> are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. >>>> >>>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of >>>> Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan >>>> tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >>>> >>>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan >>>> telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >>>> >>>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >>>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least >>>> communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >>>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty >>>> as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the >>>> alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a >>>> fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's >>>> IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last >>>> time I checked, is not an African country. >>>> >>>> >>>> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses >>>> are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or >>>> CPM says so? >>>> >>>> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and >>>> corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one >>>> engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >>>> >>>> Owen >>>> >>>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Sat Jun 18 07:19:47 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 00:19:47 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> Message-ID: <8CAA3E5B-A097-4146-AE2B-667A49039BAB@delong.com> > On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:00 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > Good Morning Owen, > > There is something i wanted to ask you about, but please give me a short answer and straight forward: > > In your opinion, an organization that is offering bribe to people in order to get their votes, in order to influence the outcome of the elections to her favor in Camaros, - will that organization be trustworthy ? With the limited information in your question, it?s impossible to form a complete opinion, but probably not. > - Will that organization have any right again to lecture about corruption while it is promoting the culture of corruption (allegedly as per above if it is true)? Yes. > - will you trust any word from that organization? Unknown, insufficient data provided. > - will you have faith and rely on their intensions that they are upright? I rarely have faith or rely on upright intentions of any organization. > I am not pointing any finger at you , rather i am just seeking your opinion pls. My opinion is mostly unformed as insufficient data is given in your question. Owen > > > On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:30 AM Owen DeLong > wrote: > > >> On Jun 16, 2022, at 22:26 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >> >> I am not replying to this news paper, nor I have time to read it all. >> >> I will also ask you to remember your statement here, ( the resource holder are pushing for a transfer policy) i will also prove you wrong! > > I look forward to your attempt to do so. > > I find it amusing how you have cherry picked what you respond to while ignoring the most salient points in the prior messages to the point where when I limit it to the salient points, you choose to ignore the entire message rather than make a cogent response. > > Owen > >> >> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 4:40 AM Owen DeLong > wrote: >> >> >>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:00 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>> >>> Owen, >>> for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red from your ext >>> >>> quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) you used the term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever the term is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an application with the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, just like when you apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let me remind us here of the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another member. this step was taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own majority of the IPV4, and to regulate the transfers and continue to monitor the ipv4, closing the door on black and grey market. let me remind us also that such cases peculiar to need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever reason the company might be dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip resources are assigned "not sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need. >> >> Neither Larus nor Cloud Innovation is selling resources received from AFRINIC? I stated that many other resource holders wish to do so and that is one of the reasons that those resource holders are pushing for a transfer policy. >> >> This is not inconsistent, it is your inability to differentiate and/or your failure to look past your efforts to ascribe the most sinister possible motives to every statement I make. >> >> The RIR doesn?t govern anything. The community governs the RIR and the RIR is supposed to administer the registry according to the policies set by the community and according to its bylaws which are controlled by the membership of the RIR. >> >> Perhaps it is this fundamental misunderstanding of who is specifically supposed to be empowered in the governance of the internet and as a result the RIRs that is driving some of your other misstatements. >> >> For clarity: >> >> ICANN/PTI in its role performing the IANA operates the central registry for IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses, and ASNs (among other things). It does so according to global policies which are set by the RIRs acting in concert through the Address Supporting Organization, specifically the ASO AC, which is synonymous with the NRO NC. >> >> Each RIR receives resources from the IANA central registry according to its justified need and pursuant to those policies mentioned above. >> >> Each RIR distributes those resources to its subscribers (members or not, depending on the RIR?s specific policies) according to the policies set in the RIR by its community and according to the bylaws of the RIR set by its members. >> >> Each RIR is expected to operate within the policies created by its membership and according to its bylaws. When an RIR fails to do so, it becomes far more dangerous than is expected. >> >> Some RIR subscribers are LIRs (Local Internet Registries). LIRs provide address space to their customers (usually for a fee) whether in relationship with connectivity services or as a separate product. >> >> Some RIR subscribers are end users and simply use the address space they receive from the RIR directly. >> >> Every RIR except AFRINIC has an inter-RIR transfer policy at this point. Yes, the recipient needs to show need in the case of an inter-RIR transfer. >> >> There are many different reasons organizations want to be able to engage in inter-RIR transfers and I enumerated several of them. You chose to focus on a single one because that is the one you hope to be able to twist into something sinister. >> >>> quote: ( .... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR.) Answer: AfriNIC got the smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing a policy "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell will be suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the scarcity of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and retrieval is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you are referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and have ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable to AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do such, with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future of Africa. >> >> If you are opposed to an inter-RIR transfer policy, then so be it. That has little or nothing to do with whether or not existing addresses registered to an organization by AFRINIC are allowed to be used outside of AFRICA or not. >> >> However, the policy that does exist now clearly does allow AFRINIC addresses to be utilized out of region virtually without restriction. A plain text reading of section 6 of the bylaws makes this quite clear. A plain text reading of the CPM finds only one place where this is contradicted and it applies ONLY to addresses issued after the activation of the Soft Landing policy. >> >> If you want to conduct legitimate audits, feel free. If you wish to abide by the legitimate outcome of those audits when they show legitimate utilization according to the CPM, the RSA, and the bylaws, I?ll fully support that. However, use out of region does not violate any of the terms in any of those documents unless the addresses were issued to the organization after the activation of the soft landing policy. >> >> AFRINIC is free to enforce any policy which has been adopted by the community and ratified by the board. There is no policy restricting the location of utilization of addresses which meets that test at this time. >> >>> quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you.) I did not make any statement about winning on geographical grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not say? who is misinforming now? >> >> You stated: "AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. ? >> >> Your claim is that AFRINIC should have already lost all cases on geographic basis if my statement was true. I pointed out that AFRINIC has neither lost nor won because the cases that relate to this matter have not yet concluded. I did not put words in your mouth, I responded to what you actually said. >> >>> >>> quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir if you really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft landing was easy. >> >> ARIN never passed a soft landing policy and it worked out quite well there, IMHO. >> >> However, the only mention I have made regarding soft landing in any of these statements is to mention that it is the only policy with geographical restrictions on utilization codified in the policy. I?ve also pointed out that said policy does not apply to any addresses issued to Cloud Innovation. >> >>> >>> quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.) did i say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining and dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is revolving because of you and around you? I said : Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie), did you see you or me or owen or amin in this statement? >> >> You made the following direct statement in a message sent directly to me as well as an open list: >> "Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie)? >> >> In context, it is quite clear you were intending to level this as a direct accusation towards me. Your use of weasel words and attempted evasions notwithstanding, at least I have the courage to own what I say and take responsibility for it. >> >> >>> quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) Again: Did I say you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I mention you? >> >> You said: "When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes.? >> >> You said this in an email directed to me and copied to an open list. >> >> So in effect, yes, you did claim I published a video, you did point a finger presumably at me, and by having my name as the target of your email, yes, you did mention me for all practical purposes. >> >>> My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on their website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and through a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan or the spokesperson of PTA? >> >> In terms of the subsequent emails in this discussion, you put my name in the To: field of your email. If you didn?t intend to involve me, why did you do so? >> In terms of the original message, you made a public comment about the letter being sent on behalf of a ?fraudulent and misleading organization?, so I felt obliged to point out your own misleading information that you have attempted to promulgate in this same forum and with your own misguided and misleading video. >> >> I will note, that you did not address the following component of my previous message: >> >> You wrote: >>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>> >> To which I responded: >>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be specific. >>> >>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >> >> >> You carefully avoided answering this? Is it perhaps because you have no answer here? You could not find an actual misquote? >> >> I find three messages into this conversation that this statement: "I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause.? >> is truly telling as apparently I am not such a second party and therefore perhaps you are admitting by your actions that I do not actually have a wrong cause. If so, this is progress. >> >> Owen >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>> >>>> Owen, >>>> >>>> Don?t rush, all in good time. >>>> >>>> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no single piece of evidence! >>>> >>>> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. >>> >>> Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. Other companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction on usage. >>> >>> If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR. >>> >>> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. >>> >>> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of the soft landing policy. >>> >>> What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend their rights under the contract they signed against a board that is misconstruing the bylaws and acting outside of its authority. >>> >>> The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few procedural victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a series of injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal actions it has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. Most of the cases are still undecided. >>> >>>> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie) >>> >>> I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. >>> >>>> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes. >>> >>> I?ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to someone else here? Perhaps yourself? >>> >>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>> >>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be specific. >>> >>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>> >>>> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which company you are talking about?! >>> >>> I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your statements. I thought that was clear from the context. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear members, >>>>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. >>>>> >>>>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >>>>> >>>>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >>>>> >>>>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >>>>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >>>>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last time I checked, is not an African country. >>>> >>>> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or CPM says so? >>>> >>>> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >>>> >>>> Owen >>>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Sat Jun 18 07:26:24 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 08:26:24 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: <8CAA3E5B-A097-4146-AE2B-667A49039BAB@delong.com> References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> <8CAA3E5B-A097-4146-AE2B-667A49039BAB@delong.com> Message-ID: You answered yes to my question, whereby I asked clearly rephrased here: a company offering bribe to people to vote in their favor, will this company be in a lny good standing or credible to talk about corruption again? Are you sure? Owen, if I ask you today to take $100 to vote for me in the upcoming election in Camaros to be MP, and after a few days you see me in the news lecturing about corruption and pointing fingers at people whom i am labeling as corrupted, that is ok by you and you will accept my word? On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 8:19 AM Owen DeLong wrote: > > > On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:00 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > Good Morning Owen, > > There is something i wanted to ask you about, but please give me a short > answer and straight forward: > > In your opinion, an organization that is offering bribe to people in order > to get their votes, in order to influence the outcome of the elections to > her favor in Camaros, - will that organization be trustworthy ? > > > With the limited information in your question, it?s impossible to form a > complete opinion, but probably not. > > - Will that organization have any right again to lecture about corruption > while it is promoting the culture of corruption (allegedly as per above if > it is true)? > > > Yes. > > - will you trust any word from that organization? > > > Unknown, insufficient data provided. > > - will you have faith and rely on their intensions that they are upright? > > > I rarely have faith or rely on upright intentions of any organization. > > I am not pointing any finger at you , rather i am just seeking your > opinion pls. > > > My opinion is mostly unformed as insufficient data is given in your > question. > > Owen > > > > On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:30 AM Owen DeLong wrote: > >> >> >> On Jun 16, 2022, at 22:26 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >> >> I am not replying to this news paper, nor I have time to read it all. >> >> I will also ask you to remember your statement here, ( the resource >> holder are pushing for a transfer policy) i will also prove you wrong! >> >> >> I look forward to your attempt to do so. >> >> I find it amusing how you have cherry picked what you respond to while >> ignoring the most salient points in the prior messages to the point where >> when I limit it to the salient points, you choose to ignore the entire >> message rather than make a cogent response. >> >> Owen >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 4:40 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:00 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>> >>> Owen, >>> for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red from >>> your ext >>> >>> *quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their >>> underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) *you used >>> the term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever the >>> term is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an application >>> with the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, just like when >>> you apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let me remind us >>> here of the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another member. this >>> step was taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own majority of the >>> IPV4, and to regulate the transfers and continue to monitor the ipv4, >>> closing the door on black and grey market. let me remind us also that such >>> cases peculiar to need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever reason the >>> company might be dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip resources are >>> assigned "not sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need. >>> >>> >>> Neither Larus nor Cloud Innovation is selling resources received from >>> AFRINIC? I stated that many other resource holders wish to do so and that >>> is one of the reasons that those resource holders are pushing for a >>> transfer policy. >>> >>> This is not inconsistent, it is your inability to differentiate and/or >>> your failure to look past your efforts to ascribe the most sinister >>> possible motives to every statement I make. >>> >>> The RIR doesn?t govern anything. The community governs the RIR and the >>> RIR is supposed to administer the registry according to the policies set by >>> the community and according to its bylaws which are controlled by the >>> membership of the RIR. >>> >>> Perhaps it is this fundamental misunderstanding of who is specifically >>> supposed to be empowered in the governance of the internet and as a result >>> the RIRs that is driving some of your other misstatements. >>> >>> For clarity: >>> >>> ICANN/PTI in its role performing the IANA operates the central registry >>> for IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses, and ASNs (among other things). It does >>> so according to global policies which are set by the RIRs acting in concert >>> through the Address Supporting Organization, specifically the ASO AC, which >>> is synonymous with the NRO NC. >>> >>> Each RIR receives resources from the IANA central registry according to >>> its justified need and pursuant to those policies mentioned above. >>> >>> Each RIR distributes those resources to its subscribers (members or not, >>> depending on the RIR?s specific policies) according to the policies set in >>> the RIR by its community and according to the bylaws of the RIR set by its >>> members. >>> >>> Each RIR is expected to operate within the policies created by its >>> membership and according to its bylaws. When an RIR fails to do so, it >>> becomes far more dangerous than is expected. >>> >>> Some RIR subscribers are LIRs (Local Internet Registries). LIRs provide >>> address space to their customers (usually for a fee) whether in >>> relationship with connectivity services or as a separate product. >>> >>> Some RIR subscribers are end users and simply use the address space they >>> receive from the RIR directly. >>> >>> Every RIR except AFRINIC has an inter-RIR transfer policy at this point. >>> Yes, the recipient needs to show need in the case of an inter-RIR transfer. >>> >>> There are many different reasons organizations want to be able to engage >>> in inter-RIR transfers and I enumerated several of them. You chose to focus >>> on a single one because that is the one you hope to be able to twist into >>> something sinister. >>> >>> quote: ( *.... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who >>> are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that >>> this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This >>> allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction >>> that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never >>> received serious attention in any other RIR.) *Answer: AfriNIC got the >>> smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing a policy >>> "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell will be >>> suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the scarcity >>> of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and retrieval >>> is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you are >>> referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and have >>> ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable to >>> AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do such, >>> with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future of >>> Africa. >>> >>> >>> If you are opposed to an inter-RIR transfer policy, then so be it. That >>> has little or nothing to do with whether or not existing addresses >>> registered to an organization by AFRINIC are allowed to be used outside of >>> AFRICA or not. >>> >>> However, the policy that does exist now clearly does allow AFRINIC >>> addresses to be utilized out of region virtually without restriction. A >>> plain text reading of section 6 of the bylaws makes this quite clear. A >>> plain text reading of the CPM finds only one place where this is >>> contradicted and it applies ONLY to addresses issued after the activation >>> of the Soft Landing policy. >>> >>> If you want to conduct legitimate audits, feel free. If you wish to >>> abide by the legitimate outcome of those audits when they show legitimate >>> utilization according to the CPM, the RSA, and the bylaws, I?ll fully >>> support that. However, use out of region does not violate any of the terms >>> in any of those documents unless the addresses were issued to the >>> organization after the activation of the soft landing policy. >>> >>> AFRINIC is free to enforce any policy which has been adopted by the >>> community and ratified by the board. There is no policy restricting the >>> location of utilization of addresses which meets that test at this time. >>> >>> *quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the >>> geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation >>> from you.)* I did not make any statement about winning on geographical >>> grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not say? who is >>> misinforming now? >>> >>> >>> You stated: "AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me >>> here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa >>> then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the >>> Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod >>> have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the >>> Judicial System. ? >>> >>> Your claim is that AFRINIC should have already lost all cases on >>> geographic basis if my statement was true. I pointed out that AFRINIC has >>> neither lost nor won because the cases that relate to this matter have not >>> yet concluded. I did not put words in your mouth, I responded to what you >>> actually said. >>> >>> >>> quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir if >>> you really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft landing >>> was easy. >>> >>> >>> ARIN never passed a soft landing policy and it worked out quite well >>> there, IMHO. >>> >>> However, the only mention I have made regarding soft landing in any of >>> these statements is to mention that it is the only policy with geographical >>> restrictions on utilization codified in the policy. I?ve also pointed out >>> that said policy does not apply to any addresses issued to Cloud Innovation. >>> >>> >>> *quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or >>> client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the >>> list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.)* did i >>> say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining and >>> dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is >>> revolving because of you and around you? I said : *Anyone *can convince *himself >>> with any lie* and convince the minions involved in this issue who have >>> been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie), did you see you or >>> me or owen or amin in this statement? >>> >>> >>> You made the following direct statement in a message sent directly to me >>> as well as an open list: >>> "Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions >>> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to >>> spread lie)? >>> >>> In context, it is quite clear you were intending to level this as a >>> direct accusation towards me. Your use of weasel words and attempted >>> evasions notwithstanding, at least I have the courage to own what I say and >>> take responsibility for it. >>> >>> >>> *quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or >>> client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the >>> list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) *Again: >>> Did I say you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I >>> mention you? >>> >>> >>> You said: "When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should >>> provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the >>> table corrupting the members to buy Votes.? >>> >>> You said this in an email directed to me and copied to an open list. >>> >>> So in effect, yes, you did claim I published a video, you did point a >>> finger presumably at me, and by having my name as the target of your email, >>> yes, you did mention me for all practical purposes. >>> >>> My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on their >>> website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and through >>> a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the >>> embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African >>> Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan >>> or the spokesperson of PTA? >>> >>> >>> In terms of the subsequent emails in this discussion, you put my name in >>> the To: field of your email. If you didn?t intend to involve me, why did >>> you do so? >>> In terms of the original message, you made a public comment about the >>> letter being sent on behalf of a ?fraudulent and misleading organization?, >>> so I felt obliged to point out your own misleading information that you >>> have attempted to promulgate in this same forum and with your own misguided >>> and misleading video. >>> >>> I will note, that you did not address the following component of my >>> previous message: >>> >>> You wrote: >>> >>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your >>> good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want >>> and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as >>> the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>> >>> >>> To which I responded: >>> >>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and >>> be specific. >>> >>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>> >>> >>> You carefully avoided answering this? Is it perhaps because you have no >>> answer here? You could not find an actual misquote? >>> >>> I find three messages into this conversation that this statement: "I >>> have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure >>> is justifying a wrong cause.? >>> is truly telling as apparently I am not such a second party and >>> therefore perhaps you are admitting by your actions that I do not actually >>> have a wrong cause. If so, this is progress. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>> >>>> Owen, >>>> >>>> Don?t rush, all in good time. >>>> >>>> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no >>>> single piece of evidence! >>>> >>>> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to >>>> refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then >>>> why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the >>>> Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod >>>> have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the >>>> Judicial System. >>>> >>>> >>>> *Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their >>>>> underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market.* Other >>>>> companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once >>>>> the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some >>>>> companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple >>>>> RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons >>>>> that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction >>>>> on usage. >>>> >>>> >>>> If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a number >>>>> of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued >>>>> space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be >>>>> an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa >>>>> is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC >>>>> and has never received serious attention in any other RIR. >>>> >>>> >>>> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical >>>> restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. >>>> >>>> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, >>>> as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa >>>> restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of >>>> the soft landing policy. >>>> >>>> What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend their >>>> rights under the contract they signed against a board that is misconstruing >>>> the bylaws and acting outside of its authority. >>>> >>>> The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few procedural >>>> victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a series of >>>> injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal actions it >>>> has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. Most of the >>>> cases are still undecided. >>>> >>>> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions >>>> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to >>>> spread lie) >>>> >>>> >>>> I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This >>>> statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, >>>> frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. >>>> >>>> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide >>>> evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table >>>> corrupting the members to buy Votes. >>>> >>>> >>>> I?ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to someone >>>> else here? Perhaps yourself? >>>> >>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to >>>> your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i >>>> want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions >>>> as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>> >>>> >>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and >>>> be specific. >>>> >>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>>> >>>> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which >>>> company you are talking about?! >>>> >>>> >>>> I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your >>>> statements. I thought that was clear from the context. >>>> >>>> Owen >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear members, >>>>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources >>>>> who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and >>>>> AfriNIC. >>>>> >>>>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of >>>>> Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan >>>>> tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >>>>> >>>>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan >>>>> telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >>>>> >>>>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >>>>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least >>>>> communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >>>>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty >>>>> as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the >>>>> alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a >>>>> fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's >>>>> IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last >>>>> time I checked, is not an African country. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses >>>>> are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or >>>>> CPM says so? >>>>> >>>>> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and >>>>> corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one >>>>> engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >>>>> >>>>> Owen >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Sat Jun 18 10:04:55 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 03:04:55 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> <8CAA3E5B-A097-4146-AE2B-667A49039BAB@delong.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:26 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > You answered yes to my question, whereby I asked clearly rephrased here: a company offering bribe to people to vote in their favor, will this company be in a lny good standing or credible to talk about corruption again? Yes. > Are you sure? Yes. Just because a company has committed some bad acts does not mean that every thing they say can be discounted or regarded as non-credible. If such were the case, nobody would ever buy Microsoft products, for after all, that company is a convicted felon. The California PUC regularly listens to PG&E despite their numerous felony convictions as a company. > Owen, if I ask you today to take $100 to vote for me in the upcoming election in Camaros to be MP, and after a few days you see me in the news lecturing about corruption and pointing fingers at people whom i am labeling as corrupted, that is ok by you and you will accept my word? It is certainly OK by me. Whether or not I will accept your word will depend on a great many factors not in evidence in the current discussion, so I cannot give a certain answer to that last question, which is pretty much what I said in the previous response below. Owen > > On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 8:19 AM Owen DeLong > wrote: > > >> On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:00 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >> >> Good Morning Owen, >> >> There is something i wanted to ask you about, but please give me a short answer and straight forward: >> >> In your opinion, an organization that is offering bribe to people in order to get their votes, in order to influence the outcome of the elections to her favor in Camaros, - will that organization be trustworthy ? > > With the limited information in your question, it?s impossible to form a complete opinion, but probably not. > >> - Will that organization have any right again to lecture about corruption while it is promoting the culture of corruption (allegedly as per above if it is true)? > > Yes. > >> - will you trust any word from that organization? > > Unknown, insufficient data provided. > >> - will you have faith and rely on their intensions that they are upright? > > I rarely have faith or rely on upright intentions of any organization. > >> I am not pointing any finger at you , rather i am just seeking your opinion pls. > > My opinion is mostly unformed as insufficient data is given in your question. > > Owen > >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:30 AM Owen DeLong > wrote: >> >> >>> On Jun 16, 2022, at 22:26 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>> >>> I am not replying to this news paper, nor I have time to read it all. >>> >>> I will also ask you to remember your statement here, ( the resource holder are pushing for a transfer policy) i will also prove you wrong! >> >> I look forward to your attempt to do so. >> >> I find it amusing how you have cherry picked what you respond to while ignoring the most salient points in the prior messages to the point where when I limit it to the salient points, you choose to ignore the entire message rather than make a cogent response. >> >> Owen >> >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 4:40 AM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:00 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>> >>>> Owen, >>>> for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red from your ext >>>> >>>> quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) you used the term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever the term is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an application with the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, just like when you apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let me remind us here of the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another member. this step was taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own majority of the IPV4, and to regulate the transfers and continue to monitor the ipv4, closing the door on black and grey market. let me remind us also that such cases peculiar to need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever reason the company might be dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip resources are assigned "not sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need. >>> >>> Neither Larus nor Cloud Innovation is selling resources received from AFRINIC? I stated that many other resource holders wish to do so and that is one of the reasons that those resource holders are pushing for a transfer policy. >>> >>> This is not inconsistent, it is your inability to differentiate and/or your failure to look past your efforts to ascribe the most sinister possible motives to every statement I make. >>> >>> The RIR doesn?t govern anything. The community governs the RIR and the RIR is supposed to administer the registry according to the policies set by the community and according to its bylaws which are controlled by the membership of the RIR. >>> >>> Perhaps it is this fundamental misunderstanding of who is specifically supposed to be empowered in the governance of the internet and as a result the RIRs that is driving some of your other misstatements. >>> >>> For clarity: >>> >>> ICANN/PTI in its role performing the IANA operates the central registry for IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses, and ASNs (among other things). It does so according to global policies which are set by the RIRs acting in concert through the Address Supporting Organization, specifically the ASO AC, which is synonymous with the NRO NC. >>> >>> Each RIR receives resources from the IANA central registry according to its justified need and pursuant to those policies mentioned above. >>> >>> Each RIR distributes those resources to its subscribers (members or not, depending on the RIR?s specific policies) according to the policies set in the RIR by its community and according to the bylaws of the RIR set by its members. >>> >>> Each RIR is expected to operate within the policies created by its membership and according to its bylaws. When an RIR fails to do so, it becomes far more dangerous than is expected. >>> >>> Some RIR subscribers are LIRs (Local Internet Registries). LIRs provide address space to their customers (usually for a fee) whether in relationship with connectivity services or as a separate product. >>> >>> Some RIR subscribers are end users and simply use the address space they receive from the RIR directly. >>> >>> Every RIR except AFRINIC has an inter-RIR transfer policy at this point. Yes, the recipient needs to show need in the case of an inter-RIR transfer. >>> >>> There are many different reasons organizations want to be able to engage in inter-RIR transfers and I enumerated several of them. You chose to focus on a single one because that is the one you hope to be able to twist into something sinister. >>> >>>> quote: ( .... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR.) Answer: AfriNIC got the smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing a policy "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell will be suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the scarcity of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and retrieval is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you are referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and have ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable to AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do such, with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future of Africa. >>> >>> If you are opposed to an inter-RIR transfer policy, then so be it. That has little or nothing to do with whether or not existing addresses registered to an organization by AFRINIC are allowed to be used outside of AFRICA or not. >>> >>> However, the policy that does exist now clearly does allow AFRINIC addresses to be utilized out of region virtually without restriction. A plain text reading of section 6 of the bylaws makes this quite clear. A plain text reading of the CPM finds only one place where this is contradicted and it applies ONLY to addresses issued after the activation of the Soft Landing policy. >>> >>> If you want to conduct legitimate audits, feel free. If you wish to abide by the legitimate outcome of those audits when they show legitimate utilization according to the CPM, the RSA, and the bylaws, I?ll fully support that. However, use out of region does not violate any of the terms in any of those documents unless the addresses were issued to the organization after the activation of the soft landing policy. >>> >>> AFRINIC is free to enforce any policy which has been adopted by the community and ratified by the board. There is no policy restricting the location of utilization of addresses which meets that test at this time. >>> >>>> quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you.) I did not make any statement about winning on geographical grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not say? who is misinforming now? >>> >>> You stated: "AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. ? >>> >>> Your claim is that AFRINIC should have already lost all cases on geographic basis if my statement was true. I pointed out that AFRINIC has neither lost nor won because the cases that relate to this matter have not yet concluded. I did not put words in your mouth, I responded to what you actually said. >>> >>>> >>>> quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir if you really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft landing was easy. >>> >>> ARIN never passed a soft landing policy and it worked out quite well there, IMHO. >>> >>> However, the only mention I have made regarding soft landing in any of these statements is to mention that it is the only policy with geographical restrictions on utilization codified in the policy. I?ve also pointed out that said policy does not apply to any addresses issued to Cloud Innovation. >>> >>>> >>>> quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.) did i say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining and dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is revolving because of you and around you? I said : Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie), did you see you or me or owen or amin in this statement? >>> >>> You made the following direct statement in a message sent directly to me as well as an open list: >>> "Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie)? >>> >>> In context, it is quite clear you were intending to level this as a direct accusation towards me. Your use of weasel words and attempted evasions notwithstanding, at least I have the courage to own what I say and take responsibility for it. >>> >>> >>>> quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) Again: Did I say you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I mention you? >>> >>> You said: "When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes.? >>> >>> You said this in an email directed to me and copied to an open list. >>> >>> So in effect, yes, you did claim I published a video, you did point a finger presumably at me, and by having my name as the target of your email, yes, you did mention me for all practical purposes. >>> >>>> My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on their website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and through a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan or the spokesperson of PTA? >>> >>> In terms of the subsequent emails in this discussion, you put my name in the To: field of your email. If you didn?t intend to involve me, why did you do so? >>> In terms of the original message, you made a public comment about the letter being sent on behalf of a ?fraudulent and misleading organization?, so I felt obliged to point out your own misleading information that you have attempted to promulgate in this same forum and with your own misguided and misleading video. >>> >>> I will note, that you did not address the following component of my previous message: >>> >>> You wrote: >>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>> >>> To which I responded: >>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be specific. >>>> >>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>> >>> >>> You carefully avoided answering this? Is it perhaps because you have no answer here? You could not find an actual misquote? >>> >>> I find three messages into this conversation that this statement: "I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause.? >>> is truly telling as apparently I am not such a second party and therefore perhaps you are admitting by your actions that I do not actually have a wrong cause. If so, this is progress. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Owen, >>>>> >>>>> Don?t rush, all in good time. >>>>> >>>>> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no single piece of evidence! >>>>> >>>>> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. >>>> >>>> Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. Other companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction on usage. >>>> >>>> If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR. >>>> >>>> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. >>>> >>>> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of the soft landing policy. >>>> >>>> What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend their rights under the contract they signed against a board that is misconstruing the bylaws and acting outside of its authority. >>>> >>>> The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few procedural victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a series of injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal actions it has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. Most of the cases are still undecided. >>>> >>>>> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie) >>>> >>>> I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. >>>> >>>>> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes. >>>> >>>> I?ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to someone else here? Perhaps yourself? >>>> >>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>> >>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be specific. >>>> >>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>>> >>>>> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which company you are talking about?! >>>> >>>> I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your statements. I thought that was clear from the context. >>>> >>>> Owen >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear members, >>>>>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. >>>>>> >>>>>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >>>>>> >>>>>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >>>>>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >>>>>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last time I checked, is not an African country. >>>>> >>>>> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or CPM says so? >>>>> >>>>> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >>>>> >>>>> Owen >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Sat Jun 18 11:51:22 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 12:51:22 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> <8CAA3E5B-A097-4146-AE2B-667A49039BAB@delong.com> Message-ID: Dont forget that the acts are related directly and simultaneously to their allegations. It is a course of time and good conduct that takes the enterprise to prove their good standing and change the general perception. Anyways I wish you well. On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 11:06 AM Owen DeLong wrote: > > > On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:26 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > You answered yes to my question, whereby I asked clearly rephrased here: a > company offering bribe to people to vote in their favor, will this company > be in a lny good standing or credible to talk about corruption again? > > > Yes. > > Are you sure? > > > Yes. > > Just because a company has committed some bad acts does not mean that > every thing they say can be discounted or regarded as non-credible. > > If such were the case, nobody would ever buy Microsoft products, for after > all, that company is a convicted felon. > > The California PUC regularly listens to PG&E despite their numerous felony > convictions as a company. > > > Owen, if I ask you today to take $100 to vote for me in the upcoming > election in Camaros to be MP, and after a few days you see me in the news > lecturing about corruption and pointing fingers at people whom i am > labeling as corrupted, that is ok by you and you will accept my word? > > > It is certainly OK by me. > > Whether or not I will accept your word will depend on a great many factors > not in evidence in the current discussion, so I cannot give a certain > answer to that last question, which is pretty much what I said in the > previous response below. > > Owen > > > On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 8:19 AM Owen DeLong wrote: > >> >> >> On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:00 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >> >> Good Morning Owen, >> >> There is something i wanted to ask you about, but please give me a short >> answer and straight forward: >> >> In your opinion, an organization that is offering bribe to people in >> order to get their votes, in order to influence the outcome of the >> elections to her favor in Camaros, - will that organization be trustworthy ? >> >> >> With the limited information in your question, it?s impossible to form a >> complete opinion, but probably not. >> >> - Will that organization have any right again to lecture about corruption >> while it is promoting the culture of corruption (allegedly as per above if >> it is true)? >> >> >> Yes. >> >> - will you trust any word from that organization? >> >> >> Unknown, insufficient data provided. >> >> - will you have faith and rely on their intensions that they are upright? >> >> >> I rarely have faith or rely on upright intentions of any organization. >> >> I am not pointing any finger at you , rather i am just seeking your >> opinion pls. >> >> >> My opinion is mostly unformed as insufficient data is given in your >> question. >> >> Owen >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:30 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 16, 2022, at 22:26 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>> >>> I am not replying to this news paper, nor I have time to read it all. >>> >>> I will also ask you to remember your statement here, ( the resource >>> holder are pushing for a transfer policy) i will also prove you wrong! >>> >>> >>> I look forward to your attempt to do so. >>> >>> I find it amusing how you have cherry picked what you respond to while >>> ignoring the most salient points in the prior messages to the point where >>> when I limit it to the salient points, you choose to ignore the entire >>> message rather than make a cogent response. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 4:40 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:00 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>> >>>> Owen, >>>> for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red >>>> from your ext >>>> >>>> *quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their >>>> underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) *you used >>>> the term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever the >>>> term is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an application >>>> with the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, just like when >>>> you apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let me remind us >>>> here of the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another member. this >>>> step was taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own majority of the >>>> IPV4, and to regulate the transfers and continue to monitor the ipv4, >>>> closing the door on black and grey market. let me remind us also that such >>>> cases peculiar to need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever reason the >>>> company might be dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip resources are >>>> assigned "not sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need. >>>> >>>> >>>> Neither Larus nor Cloud Innovation is selling resources received from >>>> AFRINIC? I stated that many other resource holders wish to do so and that >>>> is one of the reasons that those resource holders are pushing for a >>>> transfer policy. >>>> >>>> This is not inconsistent, it is your inability to differentiate and/or >>>> your failure to look past your efforts to ascribe the most sinister >>>> possible motives to every statement I make. >>>> >>>> The RIR doesn?t govern anything. The community governs the RIR and the >>>> RIR is supposed to administer the registry according to the policies set by >>>> the community and according to its bylaws which are controlled by the >>>> membership of the RIR. >>>> >>>> Perhaps it is this fundamental misunderstanding of who is specifically >>>> supposed to be empowered in the governance of the internet and as a result >>>> the RIRs that is driving some of your other misstatements. >>>> >>>> For clarity: >>>> >>>> ICANN/PTI in its role performing the IANA operates the central registry >>>> for IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses, and ASNs (among other things). It does >>>> so according to global policies which are set by the RIRs acting in concert >>>> through the Address Supporting Organization, specifically the ASO AC, which >>>> is synonymous with the NRO NC. >>>> >>>> Each RIR receives resources from the IANA central registry according to >>>> its justified need and pursuant to those policies mentioned above. >>>> >>>> Each RIR distributes those resources to its subscribers (members or >>>> not, depending on the RIR?s specific policies) according to the policies >>>> set in the RIR by its community and according to the bylaws of the RIR set >>>> by its members. >>>> >>>> Each RIR is expected to operate within the policies created by its >>>> membership and according to its bylaws. When an RIR fails to do so, it >>>> becomes far more dangerous than is expected. >>>> >>>> Some RIR subscribers are LIRs (Local Internet Registries). LIRs provide >>>> address space to their customers (usually for a fee) whether in >>>> relationship with connectivity services or as a separate product. >>>> >>>> Some RIR subscribers are end users and simply use the address space >>>> they receive from the RIR directly. >>>> >>>> Every RIR except AFRINIC has an inter-RIR transfer policy at this >>>> point. Yes, the recipient needs to show need in the case of an inter-RIR >>>> transfer. >>>> >>>> There are many different reasons organizations want to be able to >>>> engage in inter-RIR transfers and I enumerated several of them. You chose >>>> to focus on a single one because that is the one you hope to be able to >>>> twist into something sinister. >>>> >>>> quote: ( *.... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies >>>> who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note >>>> that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. >>>> This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a >>>> fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and >>>> has never received serious attention in any other RIR.) *Answer: AfriNIC >>>> got the smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing >>>> a policy "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell >>>> will be suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the >>>> scarcity of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and >>>> retrieval is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you >>>> are referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and >>>> have ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable >>>> to AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do >>>> such, with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future >>>> of Africa. >>>> >>>> >>>> If you are opposed to an inter-RIR transfer policy, then so be it. That >>>> has little or nothing to do with whether or not existing addresses >>>> registered to an organization by AFRINIC are allowed to be used outside of >>>> AFRICA or not. >>>> >>>> However, the policy that does exist now clearly does allow AFRINIC >>>> addresses to be utilized out of region virtually without restriction. A >>>> plain text reading of section 6 of the bylaws makes this quite clear. A >>>> plain text reading of the CPM finds only one place where this is >>>> contradicted and it applies ONLY to addresses issued after the activation >>>> of the Soft Landing policy. >>>> >>>> If you want to conduct legitimate audits, feel free. If you wish to >>>> abide by the legitimate outcome of those audits when they show legitimate >>>> utilization according to the CPM, the RSA, and the bylaws, I?ll fully >>>> support that. However, use out of region does not violate any of the terms >>>> in any of those documents unless the addresses were issued to the >>>> organization after the activation of the soft landing policy. >>>> >>>> AFRINIC is free to enforce any policy which has been adopted by the >>>> community and ratified by the board. There is no policy restricting the >>>> location of utilization of addresses which meets that test at this time. >>>> >>>> *quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the >>>> geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation >>>> from you.)* I did not make any statement about winning on geographical >>>> grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not say? who is >>>> misinforming now? >>>> >>>> >>>> You stated: "AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me >>>> here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa >>>> then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the >>>> Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod >>>> have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the >>>> Judicial System. ? >>>> >>>> Your claim is that AFRINIC should have already lost all cases on >>>> geographic basis if my statement was true. I pointed out that AFRINIC has >>>> neither lost nor won because the cases that relate to this matter have not >>>> yet concluded. I did not put words in your mouth, I responded to what you >>>> actually said. >>>> >>>> >>>> quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir if >>>> you really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft landing >>>> was easy. >>>> >>>> >>>> ARIN never passed a soft landing policy and it worked out quite well >>>> there, IMHO. >>>> >>>> However, the only mention I have made regarding soft landing in any of >>>> these statements is to mention that it is the only policy with geographical >>>> restrictions on utilization codified in the policy. I?ve also pointed out >>>> that said policy does not apply to any addresses issued to Cloud Innovation. >>>> >>>> >>>> *quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or >>>> client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the >>>> list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.)* did >>>> i say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining and >>>> dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is >>>> revolving because of you and around you? I said : *Anyone *can >>>> convince *himself with any lie* and convince the minions involved in >>>> this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie), >>>> did you see you or me or owen or amin in this statement? >>>> >>>> >>>> You made the following direct statement in a message sent directly to >>>> me as well as an open list: >>>> "Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions >>>> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to >>>> spread lie)? >>>> >>>> In context, it is quite clear you were intending to level this as a >>>> direct accusation towards me. Your use of weasel words and attempted >>>> evasions notwithstanding, at least I have the courage to own what I say and >>>> take responsibility for it. >>>> >>>> >>>> *quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or >>>> client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the >>>> list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) *Again: >>>> Did I say you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I >>>> mention you? >>>> >>>> >>>> You said: "When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he >>>> should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and >>>> under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes.? >>>> >>>> You said this in an email directed to me and copied to an open list. >>>> >>>> So in effect, yes, you did claim I published a video, you did point a >>>> finger presumably at me, and by having my name as the target of your email, >>>> yes, you did mention me for all practical purposes. >>>> >>>> My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on their >>>> website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and through >>>> a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the >>>> embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African >>>> Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan >>>> or the spokesperson of PTA? >>>> >>>> >>>> In terms of the subsequent emails in this discussion, you put my name >>>> in the To: field of your email. If you didn?t intend to involve me, why did >>>> you do so? >>>> In terms of the original message, you made a public comment about the >>>> letter being sent on behalf of a ?fraudulent and misleading organization?, >>>> so I felt obliged to point out your own misleading information that you >>>> have attempted to promulgate in this same forum and with your own misguided >>>> and misleading video. >>>> >>>> I will note, that you did not address the following component of my >>>> previous message: >>>> >>>> You wrote: >>>> >>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to >>>> your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i >>>> want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions >>>> as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>> >>>> >>>> To which I responded: >>>> >>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and >>>> be specific. >>>> >>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>>> >>>> >>>> You carefully avoided answering this? Is it perhaps because you have no >>>> answer here? You could not find an actual misquote? >>>> >>>> I find three messages into this conversation that this statement: "I >>>> have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure >>>> is justifying a wrong cause.? >>>> is truly telling as apparently I am not such a second party and >>>> therefore perhaps you are admitting by your actions that I do not actually >>>> have a wrong cause. If so, this is progress. >>>> >>>> Owen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Owen, >>>>> >>>>> Don?t rush, all in good time. >>>>> >>>>> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no >>>>> single piece of evidence! >>>>> >>>>> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to >>>>> refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then >>>>> why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the >>>>> Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod >>>>> have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the >>>>> Judicial System. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their >>>>>> underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market.* Other >>>>>> companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once >>>>>> the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some >>>>>> companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple >>>>>> RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons >>>>>> that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction >>>>>> on usage. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a number >>>>>> of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued >>>>>> space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be >>>>>> an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa >>>>>> is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC >>>>>> and has never received serious attention in any other RIR. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical >>>>> restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. >>>>> >>>>> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, >>>>> as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa >>>>> restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of >>>>> the soft landing policy. >>>>> >>>>> What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend their >>>>> rights under the contract they signed against a board that is misconstruing >>>>> the bylaws and acting outside of its authority. >>>>> >>>>> The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few procedural >>>>> victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a series of >>>>> injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal actions it >>>>> has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. Most of the >>>>> cases are still undecided. >>>>> >>>>> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions >>>>> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to >>>>> spread lie) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This >>>>> statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, >>>>> frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. >>>>> >>>>> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide >>>>> evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table >>>>> corrupting the members to buy Votes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I?ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to someone >>>>> else here? Perhaps yourself? >>>>> >>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to >>>>> your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i >>>>> want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions >>>>> as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error >>>>> and be specific. >>>>> >>>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>>>> >>>>> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which >>>>> company you are talking about?! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your >>>>> statements. I thought that was clear from the context. >>>>> >>>>> Owen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear members, >>>>>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources >>>>>> who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and >>>>>> AfriNIC. >>>>>> >>>>>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government >>>>>> of Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the >>>>>> Pakistan tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan >>>>>> telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >>>>>> >>>>>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >>>>>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at >>>>>> least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >>>>>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our >>>>>> sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations >>>>>> through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support >>>>>> of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how >>>>>> Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the >>>>>> last time I checked, is not an African country. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses >>>>>> are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or >>>>>> CPM says so? >>>>>> >>>>>> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and >>>>>> corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one >>>>>> engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >>>>>> >>>>>> Owen >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcurran at arin.net Sat Jun 18 17:38:29 2022 From: jcurran at arin.net (John Curran) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 17:38:29 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: <582E1C7E-9BAF-4899-B326-76882D03FB45@delong.com> References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> <8C28117D-C55F-4F4B-9C33-777A21EF5AFA@arin.net> <582E1C7E-9BAF-4899-B326-76882D03FB45@delong.com> Message-ID: On 16 Jun 2022, at 11:43 PM, Owen DeLong > wrote: On Jun 15, 2022, at 13:07 , John Curran > wrote: Since you?re opining on such matters, do you believe a "plain text reading" of the applicable documents allows AFRINIC to restrict use to the same purpose for which they were originally requested and issued? Unless notification was provided pursuant to RSA clause 4(iv)(3), yes. Owen - If you are referring to clause 4(c)(iv)(3), then I am rather surprised, since that clause refers not to simply a ?notification" to AFRINIC, but rather an "update _any_ data submitted to AFRINIC? (emphasis added)? there is quite a substantial difference. My understanding is that in the case of Cloud Innovation, this requirement was met by updates to WHOIS, as no other process for providing said updates is provided in the RSA, CPM, or bylaws. There are numerous clauses in the AFRINIC RSA that can require a party provide notice (and/or updating associated information) to AFRINIC despite having no specific process for submission ? and it is my understanding that parties manage to provide such notice and/or updated information via actual mail/courier/email processes all the time. Is it your belief that simple Whois updates would suffice for any of the other AFRINIC RSA notice/update clauses? Why would this be the case? I only ask because I don?t quite understand how a Whois update could ever considered a substantive response to a requirement for a party to update ?any data submitted to AFRINIC" [as per 4(c)(iv)(3)] ? and particularly in circumstances where the new intended usage has substantially changed from the original request for resources. Does your understanding of the situation include how or why such a Whois update could possible satisfy the irrevocable obligation to keep updated the information supplied to AFRINIC during RSA application? Thanks, /John John Curran President and CEO American Registry for Internet Numbers -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Sat Jun 18 18:21:02 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 11:21:02 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0C06A259-4164-4A9C-9D80-414A435BC897@delong.com> > On Jun 18, 2022, at 04:51, Amin Dayekh wrote: > > ? > Dont forget that the acts are related directly and simultaneously to their allegations. As I have previously stated? I have no affiliation with NRS and find their conduct to be both immoral and unethical. Nonetheless, that does not change the fact that the board has repeatedly acted against the bylaws, the RSA, the CPM, and the companies act. Simply because one (of many) accusers has acted unethically does not invalidate the voracity of their claims when there is additional clear evidence and testimony from other independent sources. > It is a course of time and good conduct that takes the enterprise to prove their good standing and change the general perception. Which I have. I know my opinions are not popular in recent history, but I am continuing to strive for an open, transparent, and accountable AFRINIC administered according to its governing documents and the law in the interests of its community and its members. You can choose to believe that or not. I have a long history of activism in the RIR system. When I started struggling for provider independent IPv6 assignments and allocations, that was not a popular view, either. Now it is policy in all 5 RIRs. > Anyways I wish you well. Likewise. I hope you will keep an open mind and judge AFRINIC?s conduct on its merits rather than on your opinion of one (or even a few) of its detractors. There are real problems here that need to be solved. The sooner the community and the members can come to agreement around that instead of using the noise around the conduct of some of the entities pointing these things out, the better for everyone. Solve the real central problems and most of the noise will fall away very quickly. Owen > > > >> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 11:06 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >> >> >>> On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:26 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>> >>> You answered yes to my question, whereby I asked clearly rephrased here: a company offering bribe to people to vote in their favor, will this company be in a lny good standing or credible to talk about corruption again? >> >> Yes. >> >>> Are you sure? >> >> Yes. >> >> Just because a company has committed some bad acts does not mean that every thing they say can be discounted or regarded as non-credible. >> >> If such were the case, nobody would ever buy Microsoft products, for after all, that company is a convicted felon. >> >> The California PUC regularly listens to PG&E despite their numerous felony convictions as a company. >> >> >>> Owen, if I ask you today to take $100 to vote for me in the upcoming election in Camaros to be MP, and after a few days you see me in the news lecturing about corruption and pointing fingers at people whom i am labeling as corrupted, that is ok by you and you will accept my word? >> >> It is certainly OK by me. >> >> Whether or not I will accept your word will depend on a great many factors not in evidence in the current discussion, so I cannot give a certain answer to that last question, which is pretty much what I said in the previous response below. >> >> Owen >> >>> >>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 8:19 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>> On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:00 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Good Morning Owen, >>>>>> >>>>>> There is something i wanted to ask you about, but please give me a short answer and straight forward: >>>>>> >>>>>> In your opinion, an organization that is offering bribe to people in order to get their votes, in order to influence the outcome of the elections to her favor in Camaros, - will that organization be trustworthy ? >>>>> >>>>> With the limited information in your question, it?s impossible to form a complete opinion, but probably not. >>>>> >>>>> - Will that organization have any right again to lecture about corruption while it is promoting the culture of corruption (allegedly as per above if it is true)? >>>> >>>> Yes. >>>> >>>>> - will you trust any word from that organization? >>>> >>>> Unknown, insufficient data provided. >>>> >>>>> - will you have faith and rely on their intensions that they are upright? >>>> >>>> I rarely have faith or rely on upright intentions of any organization. >>>> >>>>> I am not pointing any finger at you , rather i am just seeking your opinion pls. >>>> >>>> My opinion is mostly unformed as insufficient data is given in your question. >>>> >>>> Owen >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:30 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 16, 2022, at 22:26 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am not replying to this news paper, nor I have time to read it all. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I will also ask you to remember your statement here, ( the resource holder are pushing for a transfer policy) i will also prove you wrong! >>>>>> >>>>>> I look forward to your attempt to do so. >>>>>> >>>>>> I find it amusing how you have cherry picked what you respond to while ignoring the most salient points in the prior messages to the point where when I limit it to the salient points, you choose to ignore the entire message rather than make a cogent response. >>>>>> >>>>>> Owen >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 4:40 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:00 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Owen, >>>>>>>>> for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red from your ext >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) you used the term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever the term is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an application with the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, just like when you apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let me remind us here of the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another member. this step was taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own majority of the IPV4, and to regulate the transfers and continue to monitor the ipv4, closing the door on black and grey market. let me remind us also that such cases peculiar to need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever reason the company might be dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip resources are assigned "not sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Neither Larus nor Cloud Innovation is selling resources received from AFRINIC? I stated that many other resource holders wish to do so and that is one of the reasons that those resource holders are pushing for a transfer policy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is not inconsistent, it is your inability to differentiate and/or your failure to look past your efforts to ascribe the most sinister possible motives to every statement I make. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The RIR doesn?t govern anything. The community governs the RIR and the RIR is supposed to administer the registry according to the policies set by the community and according to its bylaws which are controlled by the membership of the RIR. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps it is this fundamental misunderstanding of who is specifically supposed to be empowered in the governance of the internet and as a result the RIRs that is driving some of your other misstatements. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For clarity: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ICANN/PTI in its role performing the IANA operates the central registry for IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses, and ASNs (among other things). It does so according to global policies which are set by the RIRs acting in concert through the Address Supporting Organization, specifically the ASO AC, which is synonymous with the NRO NC. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Each RIR receives resources from the IANA central registry according to its justified need and pursuant to those policies mentioned above. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Each RIR distributes those resources to its subscribers (members or not, depending on the RIR?s specific policies) according to the policies set in the RIR by its community and according to the bylaws of the RIR set by its members. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Each RIR is expected to operate within the policies created by its membership and according to its bylaws. When an RIR fails to do so, it becomes far more dangerous than is expected. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some RIR subscribers are LIRs (Local Internet Registries). LIRs provide address space to their customers (usually for a fee) whether in relationship with connectivity services or as a separate product. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some RIR subscribers are end users and simply use the address space they receive from the RIR directly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Every RIR except AFRINIC has an inter-RIR transfer policy at this point. Yes, the recipient needs to show need in the case of an inter-RIR transfer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are many different reasons organizations want to be able to engage in inter-RIR transfers and I enumerated several of them. You chose to focus on a single one because that is the one you hope to be able to twist into something sinister. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> quote: ( .... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR.) Answer: AfriNIC got the smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing a policy "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell will be suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the scarcity of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and retrieval is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you are referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and have ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable to AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do such, with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future of Africa. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you are opposed to an inter-RIR transfer policy, then so be it. That has little or nothing to do with whether or not existing addresses registered to an organization by AFRINIC are allowed to be used outside of AFRICA or not. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> However, the policy that does exist now clearly does allow AFRINIC addresses to be utilized out of region virtually without restriction. A plain text reading of section 6 of the bylaws makes this quite clear. A plain text reading of the CPM finds only one place where this is contradicted and it applies ONLY to addresses issued after the activation of the Soft Landing policy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you want to conduct legitimate audits, feel free. If you wish to abide by the legitimate outcome of those audits when they show legitimate utilization according to the CPM, the RSA, and the bylaws, I?ll fully support that. However, use out of region does not violate any of the terms in any of those documents unless the addresses were issued to the organization after the activation of the soft landing policy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> AFRINIC is free to enforce any policy which has been adopted by the community and ratified by the board. There is no policy restricting the location of utilization of addresses which meets that test at this time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you.) I did not make any statement about winning on geographical grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not say? who is misinforming now? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You stated: "AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Your claim is that AFRINIC should have already lost all cases on geographic basis if my statement was true. I pointed out that AFRINIC has neither lost nor won because the cases that relate to this matter have not yet concluded. I did not put words in your mouth, I responded to what you actually said. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir if you really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft landing was easy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ARIN never passed a soft landing policy and it worked out quite well there, IMHO. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> However, the only mention I have made regarding soft landing in any of these statements is to mention that it is the only policy with geographical restrictions on utilization codified in the policy. I?ve also pointed out that said policy does not apply to any addresses issued to Cloud Innovation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.) did i say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining and dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is revolving because of you and around you? I said : Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie), did you see you or me or owen or amin in this statement? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You made the following direct statement in a message sent directly to me as well as an open list: >>>>>>>> "Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie)? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In context, it is quite clear you were intending to level this as a direct accusation towards me. Your use of weasel words and attempted evasions notwithstanding, at least I have the courage to own what I say and take responsibility for it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) Again: Did I say you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I mention you? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You said: "When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes.? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You said this in an email directed to me and copied to an open list. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So in effect, yes, you did claim I published a video, you did point a finger presumably at me, and by having my name as the target of your email, yes, you did mention me for all practical purposes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on their website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and through a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan or the spokesperson of PTA? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In terms of the subsequent emails in this discussion, you put my name in the To: field of your email. If you didn?t intend to involve me, why did you do so? >>>>>>>> In terms of the original message, you made a public comment about the letter being sent on behalf of a ?fraudulent and misleading organization?, so I felt obliged to point out your own misleading information that you have attempted to promulgate in this same forum and with your own misguided and misleading video. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I will note, that you did not address the following component of my previous message: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You wrote: >>>>>>>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To which I responded: >>>>>>>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be specific. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You carefully avoided answering this? Is it perhaps because you have no answer here? You could not find an actual misquote? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I find three messages into this conversation that this statement: "I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause.? >>>>>>>> is truly telling as apparently I am not such a second party and therefore perhaps you are admitting by your actions that I do not actually have a wrong cause. If so, this is progress. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Owen >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Owen, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Don?t rush, all in good time. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no single piece of evidence! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. Other companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction on usage. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of the soft landing policy. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend their rights under the contract they signed against a board that is misconstruing the bylaws and acting outside of its authority. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few procedural victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a series of injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal actions it has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. Most of the cases are still undecided. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I?ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to someone else here? Perhaps yourself? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be specific. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which company you are talking about?! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your statements. I thought that was clear from the context. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Owen >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear members, >>>>>>>>>>>>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >>>>>>>>>>>>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >>>>>>>>>>>>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last time I checked, is not an African country. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or CPM says so? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Owen >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Sat Jun 18 18:28:26 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2022 21:28:26 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Interim order of June 14th 2022 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paulo...(Paul in Swahili) Your emails are often too long and extremely repeative with a lot of countless assumptions and wild accussations. Vicious attackers now? Phew..... Poor Paulo. Anyhow...Lets just says that all the countless Interim Injunctions while they continue to create room for delays by you guys.....in the end, the courts will have to invite the relevant parties to present their case subject to the main original appeal that bore all the pointless tactical ex-parte applications and the subsequent countless temporary orders. I shall echo a line from one of the rulings... "The Courts are not a debate club". Cheers, Noah On Fri, 17 Jun 2022, 16:13 Paul Hjul, wrote: > I am again at a loss as to whether you are being ignorant or disingenuous. > For present purposes though lets assume that what you are trying to say is > "but its an interim order" > > The meaning of interim isn't really difficult. Of relevance is that an > interim order has effect. The website was updated since the order was > granted and is updated regularly. I can understand not changing letterheads > to indicate a change of something by virtue of an interim order but on the > language of the order given by the Company additional rather than less > caution is called for. Are you trying to say that because it is an interim > order that it will lapse and so the Company should just wait it out? That > sort of attitude is exactly what gets contempt proceedings happening and is > a prime example of why Afrinic needs to stop allowing itself to be > influenced by the brigade whose sentiment is to promote lawlessness. The > fact is that right now and until the court makes a further decosopm > > Do you really want Afrinic to function without a board that can't muster > quorum for the next three months? Remember the second part of the order > precludes vacancies being filled. So unless the court appoints directors > you have a company of the nature of Afrinic with three directors. Most > immediately I am trying to figure out how the Company is able to take a > decision to defend the matter in a period of time during which no board > meeting could be held, postponed for a day and resolved to oppose. The fact > that the opposition is irrational and digs a deeper hole is a second > problem, and based on the fact that of the three people one voted against > the unlawful extension it will be impossible to argue that it is a > rationally made and considered decision. More likely than not no actual > thought, minuted and considered decision is made. But website conveys that > its been decided to "resist" an application that stops the board from > having somebody whose term ended from through coup keeping their spot > (again the term coup is from a member of the board at the time, its not my > characterization) > > Even if - and there are for reasons already canvassed a lot of reasons why > the argument allowing for a reduced quorum to meet is a really weak > position to take - an ability under the Bylaws to convene a meeting, not > have quorum and work with the reduced quorum of 3 the exercise involves > postponements, minuting and all manner of opportunity to trip up. It is > most probable that the meeting held after the AGMM will be set aside if > anybody asks for it to be so set aside by a court - - unfortunately the > minutes are not yet posted if for no other reason than the board was > woefully malformed at the time of the meeting and somebody not properly on > the Board was appointed vice-chair. One simple question is why should a > person have to get the brazenly unlawful resolution set aside and why > should the Company end up liable for those costs. The directors of the > Company and its advising staff have a fiduciary duty not to waste the > Company's money by litigating in support of the indefensible. > > Unless the three individuals who would make up the board are going to put > the interests of the Company and the interests of the members ahead of some > misguided rot that plagues the organization and actually sit down with > legal representatives with a view to getting the Company back on track > (rather than how to spend insane amounts of money on fruitless and wasteful > defending the indefensible) things aren't going to get better. The > membership rejected the financial statements and there are no appointed > auditors.The suggestion on this list has been to relocate the company to a > jurisdiction that would presumably turn a blind eye to the shanigans of the > Company. As has been pointed out repeatedly in order for Afrinic to take up > domicile elsewhere it would need to resolve the issues it has created for > itself and remain solvent or it would have to wind up and be > re-established which would mean going through an ICP-2 like process. > > On the other hand if the registered members step out and have their > lawyers say "it was wrong for the Company to act in bad faith, we have a > fiduciary responsibility to ensure that the Company not persist in courses > of action that is unlawful, we would like the courts and/or members to sort > out the mess" not only would many members provide the Company with > considerable assistance but within a matter of days a lawful and rational > path forward will be plotted together, rather than what is likely to be at > least two years of continued ugliness - the sort of ugliness that hinders > investment in infrastructure which is the main obstacle to > increasing connectivity in Africa. Even if they simply came out and said > "the unlawful purported extension was wrong and we need the consequences of > that to be sorted out" (and remember of the 4 directors . The problem quite > simply is that because they know that people like you will viciously attack > them if they were to do the right thing and this is the heart of the > problem at Afrinic. > > On Thu, 16 Jun 2022 at 21:16, Noah wrote: > >> >> On Thu, 16 Jun 2022, 17:42 Paul Hjul, wrote: >> >>> Considering that its been a day since the order >>> >> >> https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/interim >> >> Noah >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Sun Jun 19 13:25:15 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 14:25:15 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: <0C06A259-4164-4A9C-9D80-414A435BC897@delong.com> References: <0C06A259-4164-4A9C-9D80-414A435BC897@delong.com> Message-ID: The discussion here is not about the board. Don't confuse Ethical/unethical conduct, with acts against the law. Offering bribes to influence the outcome of the elections endangers our role as members, questions the integrity of the nominee by such organization using bribe and defamation to take control of AfriNic while fighting it on the other hand, How members are getting onboarded to such organization? by giving them ipv4 /24 pool and as stated by them (worth 1500$) free of charge and they can use it for as long as the owner doesn't want it for the mean time. This pool of ipv4 is given to encourage people to: - join the organization - sign NDA - sign a petition against afrinic ? the context then was loss of trust? - sign documents to transfer your ip resources to RIPE NCC Microsoft took immediate steps to regain the public image and maybe still working on that, we never heard of Microsoft bribing members of Apnic to put a board of directors in Apnic to act as their minions. The practice is questionable and doubtful as well as the intentions, why would someone spend this amount of money to win an election to board ? If you say to make changes fir the (transparency and accountability) etc I would say baby-girls believe in unicorns and a few until they are 18, just like how we all believed once (because of media) that there is a superhero somewhere called Superman. On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:21 PM Owen DeLong wrote: > > > On Jun 18, 2022, at 04:51, Amin Dayekh wrote: > > ? > Dont forget that the acts are related directly and simultaneously to their > allegations. > > > As I have previously stated? I have no affiliation with NRS and find their > conduct to be both immoral and unethical. > > Nonetheless, that does not change the fact that the board has repeatedly > acted against the bylaws, the RSA, the CPM, and the companies act. > > Simply because one (of many) accusers has acted unethically does not > invalidate the voracity of their claims when there is additional clear > evidence and testimony from other independent sources. > > It is a course of time and good conduct that takes the enterprise to prove > their good standing and change the general perception. > > > Which I have. I know my opinions are not popular in recent history, but I > am continuing to strive for an open, transparent, and accountable AFRINIC > administered according to its governing documents and the law in the > interests of its community and its members. > > You can choose to believe that or not. I have a long history of activism > in the RIR system. When I started struggling for provider independent IPv6 > assignments and allocations, that was not a popular view, either. Now it is > policy in all 5 RIRs. > > Anyways I wish you well. > > > Likewise. I hope you will keep an open mind and judge AFRINIC?s conduct on > its merits rather than on your opinion of one (or even a few) of its > detractors. There are real problems here that need to be solved. The sooner > the community and the members can come to agreement around that instead of > using the noise around the conduct of some of the entities pointing these > things out, the better for everyone. > > Solve the real central problems and most of the noise will fall away very > quickly. > > Owen > > > > > On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 11:06 AM Owen DeLong wrote: > >> >> >> On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:26 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >> >> You answered yes to my question, whereby I asked clearly rephrased here: >> a company offering bribe to people to vote in their favor, will this >> company be in a lny good standing or credible to talk about corruption >> again? >> >> >> Yes. >> >> Are you sure? >> >> >> Yes. >> >> Just because a company has committed some bad acts does not mean that >> every thing they say can be discounted or regarded as non-credible. >> >> If such were the case, nobody would ever buy Microsoft products, for >> after all, that company is a convicted felon. >> >> The California PUC regularly listens to PG&E despite their numerous >> felony convictions as a company. >> >> >> Owen, if I ask you today to take $100 to vote for me in the upcoming >> election in Camaros to be MP, and after a few days you see me in the news >> lecturing about corruption and pointing fingers at people whom i am >> labeling as corrupted, that is ok by you and you will accept my word? >> >> >> It is certainly OK by me. >> >> Whether or not I will accept your word will depend on a great many >> factors not in evidence in the current discussion, so I cannot give a >> certain answer to that last question, which is pretty much what I said in >> the previous response below. >> >> Owen >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 8:19 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:00 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>> >>> Good Morning Owen, >>> >>> There is something i wanted to ask you about, but please give me a short >>> answer and straight forward: >>> >>> In your opinion, an organization that is offering bribe to people in >>> order to get their votes, in order to influence the outcome of the >>> elections to her favor in Camaros, - will that organization be trustworthy ? >>> >>> >>> With the limited information in your question, it?s impossible to form a >>> complete opinion, but probably not. >>> >>> - Will that organization have any right again to lecture about >>> corruption while it is promoting the culture of corruption (allegedly as >>> per above if it is true)? >>> >>> >>> Yes. >>> >>> - will you trust any word from that organization? >>> >>> >>> Unknown, insufficient data provided. >>> >>> - will you have faith and rely on their intensions that they are upright? >>> >>> >>> I rarely have faith or rely on upright intentions of any organization. >>> >>> I am not pointing any finger at you , rather i am just seeking your >>> opinion pls. >>> >>> >>> My opinion is mostly unformed as insufficient data is given in your >>> question. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:30 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 16, 2022, at 22:26 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>> >>>> I am not replying to this news paper, nor I have time to read it all. >>>> >>>> I will also ask you to remember your statement here, ( the resource >>>> holder are pushing for a transfer policy) i will also prove you wrong! >>>> >>>> >>>> I look forward to your attempt to do so. >>>> >>>> I find it amusing how you have cherry picked what you respond to while >>>> ignoring the most salient points in the prior messages to the point where >>>> when I limit it to the salient points, you choose to ignore the entire >>>> message rather than make a cogent response. >>>> >>>> Owen >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 4:40 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:00 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Owen, >>>>> for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red >>>>> from your ext >>>>> >>>>> *quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their >>>>> underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) *you used >>>>> the term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever the >>>>> term is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an application >>>>> with the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, just like when >>>>> you apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let me remind us >>>>> here of the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another member. this >>>>> step was taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own majority of the >>>>> IPV4, and to regulate the transfers and continue to monitor the ipv4, >>>>> closing the door on black and grey market. let me remind us also that such >>>>> cases peculiar to need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever reason the >>>>> company might be dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip resources are >>>>> assigned "not sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Neither Larus nor Cloud Innovation is selling resources received from >>>>> AFRINIC? I stated that many other resource holders wish to do so and that >>>>> is one of the reasons that those resource holders are pushing for a >>>>> transfer policy. >>>>> >>>>> This is not inconsistent, it is your inability to differentiate and/or >>>>> your failure to look past your efforts to ascribe the most sinister >>>>> possible motives to every statement I make. >>>>> >>>>> The RIR doesn?t govern anything. The community governs the RIR and the >>>>> RIR is supposed to administer the registry according to the policies set by >>>>> the community and according to its bylaws which are controlled by the >>>>> membership of the RIR. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps it is this fundamental misunderstanding of who is specifically >>>>> supposed to be empowered in the governance of the internet and as a result >>>>> the RIRs that is driving some of your other misstatements. >>>>> >>>>> For clarity: >>>>> >>>>> ICANN/PTI in its role performing the IANA operates the central >>>>> registry for IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses, and ASNs (among other things). >>>>> It does so according to global policies which are set by the RIRs acting in >>>>> concert through the Address Supporting Organization, specifically the ASO >>>>> AC, which is synonymous with the NRO NC. >>>>> >>>>> Each RIR receives resources from the IANA central registry according >>>>> to its justified need and pursuant to those policies mentioned above. >>>>> >>>>> Each RIR distributes those resources to its subscribers (members or >>>>> not, depending on the RIR?s specific policies) according to the policies >>>>> set in the RIR by its community and according to the bylaws of the RIR set >>>>> by its members. >>>>> >>>>> Each RIR is expected to operate within the policies created by its >>>>> membership and according to its bylaws. When an RIR fails to do so, it >>>>> becomes far more dangerous than is expected. >>>>> >>>>> Some RIR subscribers are LIRs (Local Internet Registries). LIRs >>>>> provide address space to their customers (usually for a fee) whether in >>>>> relationship with connectivity services or as a separate product. >>>>> >>>>> Some RIR subscribers are end users and simply use the address space >>>>> they receive from the RIR directly. >>>>> >>>>> Every RIR except AFRINIC has an inter-RIR transfer policy at this >>>>> point. Yes, the recipient needs to show need in the case of an inter-RIR >>>>> transfer. >>>>> >>>>> There are many different reasons organizations want to be able to >>>>> engage in inter-RIR transfers and I enumerated several of them. You chose >>>>> to focus on a single one because that is the one you hope to be able to >>>>> twist into something sinister. >>>>> >>>>> quote: ( *.... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies >>>>> who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note >>>>> that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. >>>>> This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a >>>>> fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and >>>>> has never received serious attention in any other RIR.) *Answer: AfriNIC >>>>> got the smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing >>>>> a policy "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell >>>>> will be suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the >>>>> scarcity of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and >>>>> retrieval is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you >>>>> are referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and >>>>> have ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable >>>>> to AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do >>>>> such, with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future >>>>> of Africa. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If you are opposed to an inter-RIR transfer policy, then so be it. >>>>> That has little or nothing to do with whether or not existing addresses >>>>> registered to an organization by AFRINIC are allowed to be used outside of >>>>> AFRICA or not. >>>>> >>>>> However, the policy that does exist now clearly does allow AFRINIC >>>>> addresses to be utilized out of region virtually without restriction. A >>>>> plain text reading of section 6 of the bylaws makes this quite clear. A >>>>> plain text reading of the CPM finds only one place where this is >>>>> contradicted and it applies ONLY to addresses issued after the activation >>>>> of the Soft Landing policy. >>>>> >>>>> If you want to conduct legitimate audits, feel free. If you wish to >>>>> abide by the legitimate outcome of those audits when they show legitimate >>>>> utilization according to the CPM, the RSA, and the bylaws, I?ll fully >>>>> support that. However, use out of region does not violate any of the terms >>>>> in any of those documents unless the addresses were issued to the >>>>> organization after the activation of the soft landing policy. >>>>> >>>>> AFRINIC is free to enforce any policy which has been adopted by the >>>>> community and ratified by the board. There is no policy restricting the >>>>> location of utilization of addresses which meets that test at this time. >>>>> >>>>> *quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the >>>>> geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation >>>>> from you.)* I did not make any statement about winning on >>>>> geographical grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not >>>>> say? who is misinforming now? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You stated: "AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me >>>>> here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa >>>>> then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the >>>>> Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod >>>>> have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the >>>>> Judicial System. ? >>>>> >>>>> Your claim is that AFRINIC should have already lost all cases on >>>>> geographic basis if my statement was true. I pointed out that AFRINIC has >>>>> neither lost nor won because the cases that relate to this matter have not >>>>> yet concluded. I did not put words in your mouth, I responded to what you >>>>> actually said. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir if >>>>> you really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft landing >>>>> was easy. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ARIN never passed a soft landing policy and it worked out quite well >>>>> there, IMHO. >>>>> >>>>> However, the only mention I have made regarding soft landing in any of >>>>> these statements is to mention that it is the only policy with geographical >>>>> restrictions on utilization codified in the policy. I?ve also pointed out >>>>> that said policy does not apply to any addresses issued to Cloud Innovation. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or >>>>> client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the >>>>> list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.)* did >>>>> i say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining and >>>>> dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is >>>>> revolving because of you and around you? I said : *Anyone *can >>>>> convince *himself with any lie* and convince the minions involved in >>>>> this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie), >>>>> did you see you or me or owen or amin in this statement? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You made the following direct statement in a message sent directly to >>>>> me as well as an open list: >>>>> "Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions >>>>> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to >>>>> spread lie)? >>>>> >>>>> In context, it is quite clear you were intending to level this as a >>>>> direct accusation towards me. Your use of weasel words and attempted >>>>> evasions notwithstanding, at least I have the courage to own what I say and >>>>> take responsibility for it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or >>>>> client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the >>>>> list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) *Again: >>>>> Did I say you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I >>>>> mention you? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You said: "When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he >>>>> should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and >>>>> under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes.? >>>>> >>>>> You said this in an email directed to me and copied to an open list. >>>>> >>>>> So in effect, yes, you did claim I published a video, you did point a >>>>> finger presumably at me, and by having my name as the target of your email, >>>>> yes, you did mention me for all practical purposes. >>>>> >>>>> My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on their >>>>> website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and through >>>>> a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the >>>>> embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African >>>>> Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan >>>>> or the spokesperson of PTA? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In terms of the subsequent emails in this discussion, you put my name >>>>> in the To: field of your email. If you didn?t intend to involve me, why did >>>>> you do so? >>>>> In terms of the original message, you made a public comment about the >>>>> letter being sent on behalf of a ?fraudulent and misleading organization?, >>>>> so I felt obliged to point out your own misleading information that you >>>>> have attempted to promulgate in this same forum and with your own misguided >>>>> and misleading video. >>>>> >>>>> I will note, that you did not address the following component of my >>>>> previous message: >>>>> >>>>> You wrote: >>>>> >>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to >>>>> your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i >>>>> want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions >>>>> as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To which I responded: >>>>> >>>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error >>>>> and be specific. >>>>> >>>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You carefully avoided answering this? Is it perhaps because you have >>>>> no answer here? You could not find an actual misquote? >>>>> >>>>> I find three messages into this conversation that this statement: "I >>>>> have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure >>>>> is justifying a wrong cause.? >>>>> is truly telling as apparently I am not such a second party and >>>>> therefore perhaps you are admitting by your actions that I do not actually >>>>> have a wrong cause. If so, this is progress. >>>>> >>>>> Owen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Owen, >>>>>> >>>>>> Don?t rush, all in good time. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no >>>>>> single piece of evidence! >>>>>> >>>>>> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to >>>>>> refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then >>>>>> why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the >>>>>> Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod >>>>>> have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the >>>>>> Judicial System. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their >>>>>>> underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market.* Other >>>>>>> companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once >>>>>>> the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some >>>>>>> companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple >>>>>>> RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons >>>>>>> that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction >>>>>>> on usage. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a >>>>>>> number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC >>>>>>> issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it >>>>>>> to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to >>>>>>> Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of >>>>>>> AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical >>>>>> restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will >>>>>> lose, as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support >>>>>> such aa restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the >>>>>> activation of the soft landing policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend their >>>>>> rights under the contract they signed against a board that is misconstruing >>>>>> the bylaws and acting outside of its authority. >>>>>> >>>>>> The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few >>>>>> procedural victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a >>>>>> series of injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal >>>>>> actions it has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. >>>>>> Most of the cases are still undecided. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions >>>>>> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to >>>>>> spread lie) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This >>>>>> statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, >>>>>> frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. >>>>>> >>>>>> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide >>>>>> evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table >>>>>> corrupting the members to buy Votes. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I?ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to >>>>>> someone else here? Perhaps yourself? >>>>>> >>>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to >>>>>> your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i >>>>>> want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions >>>>>> as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error >>>>>> and be specific. >>>>>> >>>>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>>>>> >>>>>> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which >>>>>> company you are talking about?! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your >>>>>> statements. I thought that was clear from the context. >>>>>> >>>>>> Owen >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear members, >>>>>>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources >>>>>>> who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and >>>>>>> AfriNIC. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government >>>>>>> of Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the >>>>>>> Pakistan tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan >>>>>>> telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >>>>>>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at >>>>>>> least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >>>>>>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our >>>>>>> sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations >>>>>>> through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support >>>>>>> of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how >>>>>>> Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the >>>>>>> last time I checked, is not an African country. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses >>>>>>> are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or >>>>>>> CPM says so? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications >>>>>>> and corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the >>>>>>> one engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Owen >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From abscoco at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 22:14:51 2022 From: abscoco at gmail.com (Sylvain Baya) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 23:14:51 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Interim order of June 14th 2022 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear AfriNIC's Community, Hope this email finds you in good health! Please find my comments below, inline... Le vendredi 17 juin 2022, Paul Hjul a ?crit : > I am again at a loss as to whether you are being ignorant or disingenuous. > For present purposes though lets assume that what you are trying to say is > "but its an interim order" > > > Hi Paul, Thanks for your email, brother. ...while reading your numerous long emails, i still don't understand why you seem to essentially behaving in support of a rioting activity started against both this RIR & the whole INRS (Internet Numbers Registry System - RFC7020). BtW, "The term interim order refers to an order issued by a court during the pendency of the litigation. It is generally issued by the Court *to ensure Status quo*. The rationale for such orders to be issued by the Courts is best explained by the Latin legal maxim "Actus curiae neminem gravabit" which, translated to English, stands for "an act of the court shall prejudice no one". Therefore, to ensure that none of the interests of the parties to the litigation are harmed, the court may issue an interim order." __ [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interim_order#:~:text=The%20te rm%20interim,an%20interim%20order. > > > The meaning of interim isn't really difficult. > > Right! Please see above, brother. > > > Of relevance is that an interim order has effect. > > It's meant to maintain a kind of status quo; while trying to protect both parties. > > > The website was updated since the order was granted and is updated > regularly. I can understand not changing letterheads to indicate a change > of something by virtue of an interim order but on the language of the order > given by the Company additional rather than less caution is called for. > > ...i understand that, even in war times, there is a thing called "rules"; but, really, who usually care? > > Are you trying to say that because it is an interim order that it will > lapse and so the Company should just wait it out? That sort of attitude is > exactly what gets contempt proceedings happening and is a prime example of > why Afrinic needs to stop allowing itself to be influenced by the brigade > whose sentiment is to promote lawlessness. > > > Paul, you wrote such a long email, after that our common brother replied to your email with an URI containing a simple definiting of a word which appeared in your email... How come that you reply...with such a long email, full of guesses? :'-( > > The fact is that right now and until the court makes a further decosopm > > > You couldn't play in both sides, brother :'-( ...the opposite camp would defend against any adversary attacks; with their means, and you can not, really, play on behalf of your adversaries :-) And, about the purpose please, wisely choose your camp! i mean, it's not too late, though... "? Ecclesiastes 3:1 ? To everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven:" __ [2]: https://biblehub.com/crossref/ecclesiastes/3-1.htm#:~:text=T o%20everything%20there,purpose%20under%20heaven%3A > > Do you really want Afrinic to function without a board that can't muster > quorum for the next three months? Remember the second part of the order > precludes vacancies being filled. > > Brother you certainly remember the story of court order served to prevent AfriNIC to use any of their bank accounts... Are you really celebrating victory before the end of that machiavelous war? Please, tell the rioters to don't try to *sell* this RIR's service region IPv4 pool for out of region use; before having shutdowned the RIR, *bought* its community and fully replaced the global INRS... > > So unless the court appoints directors you have a company of the nature of > Afrinic with three directors. > > > ...so! there is still a way around; as the MU's 2001 company act is not silent on that topic. But, you should keep in mind the spirit of *interim orders*. > > > Most immediately I am trying to figure out how the Company is able to take > a decision to defend the matter in a period of time during which no board > meeting could be held, postponed for a day and resolved to oppose. The fact > that the opposition is irrational and digs a deeper hole is a second > problem, and based on the fact that of the three people one voted against > the unlawful extension it will be impossible to argue that it is a > rationally made and considered decision. More likely than not no actual > thought, minuted and considered decision is made. But website conveys that > its been decided to "resist" an application that stops the board from > having somebody whose term ended from through coup keeping their spot > (again the term coup is from a member of the board at the time, its not my > characterization) > > > Various types of coup could be orchestrated by an adversary party; and any curious observer, of AfriNIC's actual experienced challenges, might easily understand what is at stake and who are those who contribute to support what appears to be the really dangerous party at time... > > Even if - and there are for reasons already canvassed a lot of reasons why > the argument allowing for a reduced quorum to meet is a really weak > position to take - an ability under the Bylaws to convene a meeting, not > have quorum and work with the reduced quorum of 3 the exercise involves > postponements, minuting and all manner of opportunity to trip up. It is > most probable that the meeting held after the AGMM will be set aside if > anybody asks for it to be so set aside by a court - - unfortunately the > minutes are not yet posted if for no other reason than the board was > woefully malformed at the time of the meeting and somebody not properly on > the Board was appointed vice-chair. One simple question is why should a > person have to get the brazenly unlawful resolution set aside and why > should the Company end up liable for those costs. The directors of the > Company and its advising staff have a fiduciary duty not to waste the > Company's money by litigating in support of the indefensible. > > Unless the three individuals who would make up the board are going to put > the interests of the Company and the interests of the members ahead of some > misguided rot that plagues the organization and actually sit down with > legal representatives with a view to getting the Company back on track > (rather than how to spend insane amounts of money on fruitless and wasteful > defending the indefensible) things aren't going to get better. The > membership rejected the financial statements and there are no appointed > auditors.The suggestion on this list has been to relocate the company to a > jurisdiction that would presumably turn a blind eye to the shanigans of the > Company. As has been pointed out repeatedly in order for Afrinic to take up > domicile elsewhere it would need to resolve the issues it has created for > itself and remain solvent or it would have to wind up and be > re-established which would mean going through an ICP-2 like process. > > On the other hand if the registered members step out and have their > lawyers say "it was wrong for the Company to act in bad faith, we have a > fiduciary responsibility to ensure that the Company not persist in courses > of action that is unlawful, we would like the courts and/or members to sort > out the mess" not only would many members provide the Company with > considerable assistance but within a matter of days a lawful and rational > path forward will be plotted together, rather than what is likely to be at > least two years of continued ugliness - the sort of ugliness that hinders > investment in infrastructure which is the main obstacle to > increasing connectivity in Africa. > > > ...i thaught that the very AfriNIC's RM which is pouring huge amount of money in attempting to destroy a non profit company which enriches it; would have been recognizant enough to invest back in building some needed open Internet Protocol based infrastructures accross Africa... ...and perhaps to lead IPv6 deployment accross AfriNIC's service region? :'-( Question: If an LIR doesn't have an ASN, isn't that a red signal (no BGP network) about its intent to deploy no single infrastructure within the region? :-/ Anyone willing to address this *problem*, through the PDWG (Policy Development Working Group), can freely join me in co-authoring a DPP (Draft Policy Proposal) to be submitted soon. A normal LIR (Local Internet Registry) holding such a huge amount of IPv4 resources would have been a natural source of various investments within the region associated with the RIR (Regional Internet Registry) which allocated those Internet number resources. But that very AfriNIC's RM seems to prefer to waste its money, gained in exploiting (out of region) those IPv4 resources, to fight AfriNIC; while attempting to corrupt this RIR's community, the other AfriNIC's RMs and the entire INRS' community... :'-( ...*investing*, an apparently unlimited budget, in numerous litigations against a non profit, while no record of infrastructural investment accross that RIR's service region seems to exist... As i might have been wrong from the beginning... then, please, brother feel free to correct me. Remain blessed! Shalom, --sb. > > > Even if they simply came out and said "the unlawful purported extension > was wrong and we need the consequences of that to be sorted out" (and > remember of the 4 directors . The problem quite simply is that because they > know that people like you will viciously attack them if they were to do the > right thing and this is the heart of the problem at Afrinic. > > On Thu, 16 Jun 2022 at 21:16, Noah wrote: > >> >> On Thu, 16 Jun 2022, 17:42 Paul Hjul, wrote: >> >>> Considering that its been a day since the order >>> >> >> https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/interim >> >> Noah >> > -- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]| Subscribe to Mailing List: __ #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From comms at afrinic.net Mon Jun 20 05:56:40 2022 From: comms at afrinic.net (AFRINIC Communication) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2022 09:56:40 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] RIRs Message to the AFRINIC Community Message-ID: <23632BF0-C8B5-4FF3-8D73-8FE4C367F0DB@afrinic.net> Dear AFRINIC Members and Community, In the context of the ongoing challenges faced by AFRINIC, the other Regional Internet Registries, APNIC, ARIN, RIPE NCC and LACNIC have sent a message to the AFRINIC Community. We invite you to read the message published at: https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/ AFRINIC Communications ????.. Chers membres et communaut? d'AFRINIC, Dans le contexte des enjeux actuels auxquels fait face l'AFRINIC, les autres Registres Internet r?gionaux, APNIC, ARIN, RIPE NCC et LACNIC ont envoy? un message ? la Communaut? AFRINIC. Nous vous invitons ? lire le message publi? sur : https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/ Communications AFRINIC ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? AFRINIC ? ?? ???? ???????? ???????? ???? ??????? AFRINIC ? ???? ????? ???????? ????????? ?????? ? APNIC ? ARIN ? RIPE NCC ? LACNIC ?????? ????? ??? ????? AFRINIC. ????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???: https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/ AFRINIC ????????? ??????... Caros Membros AFRINIC e Comunidade, No contexto dos actuais desafios enfrentados pela AFRINIC, os outros Registos Regionais de Internet, APNIC, ARIN, RIPE NCC e LACNIC enviaram uma mensagem ? Comunidade AFRINIC. Convidamo-lo a ler a mensagem publicada em: https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/ Comunica??es AFR?NICAS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Mon Jun 20 06:01:14 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 23:01:14 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] RIRs Message to the AFRINIC Community In-Reply-To: <23632BF0-C8B5-4FF3-8D73-8FE4C367F0DB@afrinic.net> References: <23632BF0-C8B5-4FF3-8D73-8FE4C367F0DB@afrinic.net> Message-ID: <4C1EBC83-72D2-4D66-BDEC-0098890DFC0A@delong.com> It is nice to see such support for efforts to clean up the AFRINIC board coming from the other RIRs. Owen > On Jun 19, 2022, at 22:56 , AFRINIC Communication wrote: > > Dear AFRINIC Members and Community, > > In the context of the ongoing challenges faced by AFRINIC, the other Regional Internet Registries, APNIC, ARIN, RIPE NCC and LACNIC have sent a message to the AFRINIC Community. > > We invite you to read the message published at: https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/ > > AFRINIC Communications > > ????.. > > Chers membres et communaut? d'AFRINIC, > > Dans le contexte des enjeux actuels auxquels fait face l'AFRINIC, les autres Registres Internet r?gionaux, APNIC, ARIN, RIPE NCC et LACNIC ont envoy? un message ? la Communaut? AFRINIC. > > Nous vous invitons ? lire le message publi? sur : https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/ > > Communications AFRINIC > > ?????? > > ?????? ????? ?????? AFRINIC ? > > ?? ???? ???????? ???????? ???? ??????? AFRINIC ? ???? ????? ???????? ????????? ?????? ? APNIC ? ARIN ? RIPE NCC ? LACNIC ?????? ????? ??? ????? AFRINIC. > > ????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???: https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/ > > AFRINIC ????????? > > ??????... > > Caros Membros AFRINIC e Comunidade, > > No contexto dos actuais desafios enfrentados pela AFRINIC, os outros Registos Regionais de Internet, APNIC, ARIN, RIPE NCC e LACNIC enviaram uma mensagem ? Comunidade AFRINIC. > > Convidamo-lo a ler a mensagem publicada em: https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/ > > Comunica??es AFR?NICAS > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Mon Jun 20 06:12:26 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 23:12:26 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <0C06A259-4164-4A9C-9D80-414A435BC897@delong.com> Message-ID: <40777218-6529-4B2F-83AD-F6AD93206285@delong.com> > On Jun 19, 2022, at 06:25 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > The discussion here is not about the board. It is as far as I am concerned. > Don't confuse Ethical/unethical conduct, with acts against the law. The board has committed both. To the best of my knowledge, NRS has committed only unethical/immoral and not illegal acts. > Offering bribes to influence the outcome of the elections endangers our role as members, questions the integrity of the nominee by such organization using bribe and defamation to take control of AfriNic while fighting it on the other hand, To the best of my knowledge, NRS has no open litigation against AFRINIC, so I?m not sure what you mean here. > How members are getting onboarded to such organization? by giving them ipv4 /24 pool and as stated by them (worth 1500$) free of charge and they can use it for as long as the owner doesn't want it for the mean time. This pool of ipv4 is given to encourage people to: > - join the organization > - sign NDA > - sign a petition against afrinic ? the context then was loss of trust? > - sign documents to transfer your ip resources to RIPE NCC I have no idea. I have no relationship with NRS. > Microsoft took immediate steps to regain the public image and maybe still working on that, we never heard of Microsoft bribing members of Apnic to put a board of directors in Apnic to act as their minions. There are still open questions around the ethics of how Microsoft managed to ?comply? with ARIN policies in justifying the need for the IPv4 addresses they acquired from Nortel. > The practice is questionable and doubtful as well as the intentions, why would someone spend this amount of money to win an election to board ? If you say to make changes fir the (transparency and accountability) etc I would say baby-girls believe in unicorns and a few until they are 18, just like how we all believed once (because of media) that there is a superhero somewhere called Superman. Again, you should ask the NRS directly. As I said, I have no affiliation with NRS. Owen > > On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:21 PM Owen DeLong > wrote: > > >> On Jun 18, 2022, at 04:51, Amin Dayekh > wrote: >> >> ? >> Dont forget that the acts are related directly and simultaneously to their allegations. > > As I have previously stated? I have no affiliation with NRS and find their conduct to be both immoral and unethical. > > Nonetheless, that does not change the fact that the board has repeatedly acted against the bylaws, the RSA, the CPM, and the companies act. > > Simply because one (of many) accusers has acted unethically does not invalidate the voracity of their claims when there is additional clear evidence and testimony from other independent sources. > >> It is a course of time and good conduct that takes the enterprise to prove their good standing and change the general perception. > > Which I have. I know my opinions are not popular in recent history, but I am continuing to strive for an open, transparent, and accountable AFRINIC administered according to its governing documents and the law in the interests of its community and its members. > > You can choose to believe that or not. I have a long history of activism in the RIR system. When I started struggling for provider independent IPv6 assignments and allocations, that was not a popular view, either. Now it is policy in all 5 RIRs. > >> Anyways I wish you well. > > Likewise. I hope you will keep an open mind and judge AFRINIC?s conduct on its merits rather than on your opinion of one (or even a few) of its detractors. There are real problems here that need to be solved. The sooner the community and the members can come to agreement around that instead of using the noise around the conduct of some of the entities pointing these things out, the better for everyone. > > Solve the real central problems and most of the noise will fall away very quickly. > > Owen > >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 11:06 AM Owen DeLong > wrote: >> >> >>> On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:26 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>> >>> You answered yes to my question, whereby I asked clearly rephrased here: a company offering bribe to people to vote in their favor, will this company be in a lny good standing or credible to talk about corruption again? >> >> Yes. >> >>> Are you sure? >> >> Yes. >> >> Just because a company has committed some bad acts does not mean that every thing they say can be discounted or regarded as non-credible. >> >> If such were the case, nobody would ever buy Microsoft products, for after all, that company is a convicted felon. >> >> The California PUC regularly listens to PG&E despite their numerous felony convictions as a company. >> >> >>> Owen, if I ask you today to take $100 to vote for me in the upcoming election in Camaros to be MP, and after a few days you see me in the news lecturing about corruption and pointing fingers at people whom i am labeling as corrupted, that is ok by you and you will accept my word? >> >> It is certainly OK by me. >> >> Whether or not I will accept your word will depend on a great many factors not in evidence in the current discussion, so I cannot give a certain answer to that last question, which is pretty much what I said in the previous response below. >> >> Owen >> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 8:19 AM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:00 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>> >>>> Good Morning Owen, >>>> >>>> There is something i wanted to ask you about, but please give me a short answer and straight forward: >>>> >>>> In your opinion, an organization that is offering bribe to people in order to get their votes, in order to influence the outcome of the elections to her favor in Camaros, - will that organization be trustworthy ? >>> >>> With the limited information in your question, it?s impossible to form a complete opinion, but probably not. >>> >>>> - Will that organization have any right again to lecture about corruption while it is promoting the culture of corruption (allegedly as per above if it is true)? >>> >>> Yes. >>> >>>> - will you trust any word from that organization? >>> >>> Unknown, insufficient data provided. >>> >>>> - will you have faith and rely on their intensions that they are upright? >>> >>> I rarely have faith or rely on upright intentions of any organization. >>> >>>> I am not pointing any finger at you , rather i am just seeking your opinion pls. >>> >>> My opinion is mostly unformed as insufficient data is given in your question. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:30 AM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jun 16, 2022, at 22:26 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I am not replying to this news paper, nor I have time to read it all. >>>>> >>>>> I will also ask you to remember your statement here, ( the resource holder are pushing for a transfer policy) i will also prove you wrong! >>>> >>>> I look forward to your attempt to do so. >>>> >>>> I find it amusing how you have cherry picked what you respond to while ignoring the most salient points in the prior messages to the point where when I limit it to the salient points, you choose to ignore the entire message rather than make a cogent response. >>>> >>>> Owen >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 4:40 AM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:00 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Owen, >>>>>> for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red from your ext >>>>>> >>>>>> quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) you used the term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever the term is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an application with the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, just like when you apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let me remind us here of the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another member. this step was taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own majority of the IPV4, and to regulate the transfers and continue to monitor the ipv4, closing the door on black and grey market. let me remind us also that such cases peculiar to need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever reason the company might be dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip resources are assigned "not sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need. >>>>> >>>>> Neither Larus nor Cloud Innovation is selling resources received from AFRINIC? I stated that many other resource holders wish to do so and that is one of the reasons that those resource holders are pushing for a transfer policy. >>>>> >>>>> This is not inconsistent, it is your inability to differentiate and/or your failure to look past your efforts to ascribe the most sinister possible motives to every statement I make. >>>>> >>>>> The RIR doesn?t govern anything. The community governs the RIR and the RIR is supposed to administer the registry according to the policies set by the community and according to its bylaws which are controlled by the membership of the RIR. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps it is this fundamental misunderstanding of who is specifically supposed to be empowered in the governance of the internet and as a result the RIRs that is driving some of your other misstatements. >>>>> >>>>> For clarity: >>>>> >>>>> ICANN/PTI in its role performing the IANA operates the central registry for IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses, and ASNs (among other things). It does so according to global policies which are set by the RIRs acting in concert through the Address Supporting Organization, specifically the ASO AC, which is synonymous with the NRO NC. >>>>> >>>>> Each RIR receives resources from the IANA central registry according to its justified need and pursuant to those policies mentioned above. >>>>> >>>>> Each RIR distributes those resources to its subscribers (members or not, depending on the RIR?s specific policies) according to the policies set in the RIR by its community and according to the bylaws of the RIR set by its members. >>>>> >>>>> Each RIR is expected to operate within the policies created by its membership and according to its bylaws. When an RIR fails to do so, it becomes far more dangerous than is expected. >>>>> >>>>> Some RIR subscribers are LIRs (Local Internet Registries). LIRs provide address space to their customers (usually for a fee) whether in relationship with connectivity services or as a separate product. >>>>> >>>>> Some RIR subscribers are end users and simply use the address space they receive from the RIR directly. >>>>> >>>>> Every RIR except AFRINIC has an inter-RIR transfer policy at this point. Yes, the recipient needs to show need in the case of an inter-RIR transfer. >>>>> >>>>> There are many different reasons organizations want to be able to engage in inter-RIR transfers and I enumerated several of them. You chose to focus on a single one because that is the one you hope to be able to twist into something sinister. >>>>> >>>>>> quote: ( .... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR.) Answer: AfriNIC got the smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing a policy "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell will be suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the scarcity of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and retrieval is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you are referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and have ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable to AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do such, with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future of Africa. >>>>> >>>>> If you are opposed to an inter-RIR transfer policy, then so be it. That has little or nothing to do with whether or not existing addresses registered to an organization by AFRINIC are allowed to be used outside of AFRICA or not. >>>>> >>>>> However, the policy that does exist now clearly does allow AFRINIC addresses to be utilized out of region virtually without restriction. A plain text reading of section 6 of the bylaws makes this quite clear. A plain text reading of the CPM finds only one place where this is contradicted and it applies ONLY to addresses issued after the activation of the Soft Landing policy. >>>>> >>>>> If you want to conduct legitimate audits, feel free. If you wish to abide by the legitimate outcome of those audits when they show legitimate utilization according to the CPM, the RSA, and the bylaws, I?ll fully support that. However, use out of region does not violate any of the terms in any of those documents unless the addresses were issued to the organization after the activation of the soft landing policy. >>>>> >>>>> AFRINIC is free to enforce any policy which has been adopted by the community and ratified by the board. There is no policy restricting the location of utilization of addresses which meets that test at this time. >>>>> >>>>>> quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you.) I did not make any statement about winning on geographical grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not say? who is misinforming now? >>>>> >>>>> You stated: "AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. ? >>>>> >>>>> Your claim is that AFRINIC should have already lost all cases on geographic basis if my statement was true. I pointed out that AFRINIC has neither lost nor won because the cases that relate to this matter have not yet concluded. I did not put words in your mouth, I responded to what you actually said. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir if you really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft landing was easy. >>>>> >>>>> ARIN never passed a soft landing policy and it worked out quite well there, IMHO. >>>>> >>>>> However, the only mention I have made regarding soft landing in any of these statements is to mention that it is the only policy with geographical restrictions on utilization codified in the policy. I?ve also pointed out that said policy does not apply to any addresses issued to Cloud Innovation. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.) did i say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining and dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is revolving because of you and around you? I said : Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie), did you see you or me or owen or amin in this statement? >>>>> >>>>> You made the following direct statement in a message sent directly to me as well as an open list: >>>>> "Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie)? >>>>> >>>>> In context, it is quite clear you were intending to level this as a direct accusation towards me. Your use of weasel words and attempted evasions notwithstanding, at least I have the courage to own what I say and take responsibility for it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) Again: Did I say you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I mention you? >>>>> >>>>> You said: "When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes.? >>>>> >>>>> You said this in an email directed to me and copied to an open list. >>>>> >>>>> So in effect, yes, you did claim I published a video, you did point a finger presumably at me, and by having my name as the target of your email, yes, you did mention me for all practical purposes. >>>>> >>>>>> My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on their website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and through a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan or the spokesperson of PTA? >>>>> >>>>> In terms of the subsequent emails in this discussion, you put my name in the To: field of your email. If you didn?t intend to involve me, why did you do so? >>>>> In terms of the original message, you made a public comment about the letter being sent on behalf of a ?fraudulent and misleading organization?, so I felt obliged to point out your own misleading information that you have attempted to promulgate in this same forum and with your own misguided and misleading video. >>>>> >>>>> I will note, that you did not address the following component of my previous message: >>>>> >>>>> You wrote: >>>>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>>>> >>>>> To which I responded: >>>>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be specific. >>>>>> >>>>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You carefully avoided answering this? Is it perhaps because you have no answer here? You could not find an actual misquote? >>>>> >>>>> I find three messages into this conversation that this statement: "I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause.? >>>>> is truly telling as apparently I am not such a second party and therefore perhaps you are admitting by your actions that I do not actually have a wrong cause. If so, this is progress. >>>>> >>>>> Owen >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Owen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Don?t rush, all in good time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no single piece of evidence! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. >>>>>> >>>>>> Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. Other companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction on usage. >>>>>> >>>>>> If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR. >>>>>> >>>>>> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of the soft landing policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend their rights under the contract they signed against a board that is misconstruing the bylaws and acting outside of its authority. >>>>>> >>>>>> The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few procedural victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a series of injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal actions it has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. Most of the cases are still undecided. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie) >>>>>> >>>>>> I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. >>>>>> >>>>>>> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes. >>>>>> >>>>>> I?ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to someone else here? Perhaps yourself? >>>>>> >>>>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>>>> >>>>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be specific. >>>>>> >>>>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>>>>> >>>>>>> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which company you are talking about?! >>>>>> >>>>>> I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your statements. I thought that was clear from the context. >>>>>> >>>>>> Owen >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear members, >>>>>>>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >>>>>>>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >>>>>>>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last time I checked, is not an African country. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or CPM says so? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Owen >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Mon Jun 20 06:20:16 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 23:20:16 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Interim order of June 14th 2022 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To be very clear here, IMHO, AFRINIC and the AFRINIC membership and community are not the adversaries in the law suit. As far as I am concerned, the AFRINIC board and management are the adversaries and they are so _BECAUSE_ they are acting contrary to the bylaws and against the interests of the membership and community. Owen > On Jun 19, 2022, at 15:14 , Sylvain Baya wrote: > > Dear AfriNIC's Community, > > Hope this email finds you in good health! > > Please find my comments below, inline... > > Le vendredi 17 juin 2022, Paul Hjul > a ?crit : > I am again at a loss as to whether you are being ignorant or disingenuous. For present purposes though lets assume that what you are trying to say is "but its an interim order" > > > > > Hi Paul, > Thanks for your email, brother. > > ...while reading your numerous long emails, i still > don't understand why you seem to essentially > behaving in support of a rioting activity started against both this RIR & the whole INRS (Internet > Numbers Registry System - RFC7020). > > BtW, > > "The term interim order refers to an order issued > by a court during the pendency of the litigation. > It is generally issued by the Court *to ensure Status > quo*. The rationale for such orders to be issued by > the Courts is best explained by the Latin legal > maxim "Actus curiae neminem gravabit" which, > translated to English, stands for "an act of the > court shall prejudice no one". Therefore, to ensure > that none of the interests of the parties to the > litigation are harmed, the court may issue an > interim order." > > __ > [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interim_order#:~:text=The%20term%20interim,an%20interim%20order . > > > > > The meaning of interim isn't really difficult. > > > Right! > Please see above, brother. > > > > > Of relevance is that an interim order has effect. > > > > It's meant to maintain a kind of status quo; while > trying to protect both parties. > > > > > The website was updated since the order was granted and is updated regularly. I can understand not changing letterheads to indicate a change of something by virtue of an interim order but on the language of the order given by the Company additional rather than less caution is called for. > > > > ...i understand that, even in war times, there is a > thing called "rules"; but, really, who usually care? > > > > Are you trying to say that because it is an interim order that it will lapse and so the Company should just wait it out? That sort of attitude is exactly what gets contempt proceedings happening and is a prime example of why Afrinic needs to stop allowing itself to be influenced by the brigade whose sentiment is to promote lawlessness. > > > > > Paul, you wrote such a long email, after that our > common brother replied to your email with an URI > containing a simple definiting of a word which > appeared in your email... > > How come that you reply...with such a long email, > full of guesses? :'-( > > > > > The fact is that right now and until the court makes a further decosopm > > > > > You couldn't play in both sides, brother :'-( > > ...the opposite camp would defend against any adversary attacks; with their means, and you can > not, really, play on behalf of your adversaries :-) > > And, about the purpose please, wisely choose > your camp! i mean, it's not too late, though... > > "? Ecclesiastes 3:1 ? > To everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven:" > > __ > [2]: https://biblehub.com/crossref/ecclesiastes/3-1.htm#:~:text=To%20everything%20there,purpose%20under%20heaven%3A > > > > > Do you really want Afrinic to function without a board that can't muster quorum for the next three months? Remember the second part of the order precludes vacancies being filled. > > > > Brother you certainly remember the story of court > order served to prevent AfriNIC to use any of their > bank accounts... > > Are you really celebrating victory before the end > of that machiavelous war? > > Please, tell the rioters to don't try to *sell* this > RIR's service region IPv4 pool for out of region > use; before having shutdowned the RIR, *bought* > its community and fully replaced the global INRS... > > > > > So unless the court appoints directors you have a company of the nature of Afrinic with three directors. > > > > > ...so! there is still a way around; as the MU's 2001 company act is not silent on that topic. But, you > should keep in mind the spirit of *interim orders*. > > > > > Most immediately I am trying to figure out how the Company is able to take a decision to defend the matter in a period of time during which no board meeting could be held, postponed for a day and resolved to oppose. The fact that the opposition is irrational and digs a deeper hole is a second problem, and based on the fact that of the three people one voted against the unlawful extension it will be impossible to argue that it is a rationally made and considered decision. More likely than not no actual thought, minuted and considered decision is made. But website conveys that its been decided to "resist" an application that stops the board from having somebody whose term ended from through coup keeping their spot (again the term coup is from a member of the board at the time, its not my characterization) > > > > > Various types of coup could be orchestrated by > an adversary party; and any curious observer, of > AfriNIC's actual experienced challenges, might > easily understand what is at stake and who are > those who contribute to support what appears > to be the really dangerous party at time... > > > > > Even if - and there are for reasons already canvassed a lot of reasons why the argument allowing for a reduced quorum to meet is a really weak position to take - an ability under the Bylaws to convene a meeting, not have quorum and work with the reduced quorum of 3 the exercise involves postponements, minuting and all manner of opportunity to trip up. It is most probable that the meeting held after the AGMM will be set aside if anybody asks for it to be so set aside by a court - - unfortunately the minutes are not yet posted if for no other reason than the board was woefully malformed at the time of the meeting and somebody not properly on the Board was appointed vice-chair. One simple question is why should a person have to get the brazenly unlawful resolution set aside and why should the Company end up liable for those costs. The directors of the Company and its advising staff have a fiduciary duty not to waste the Company's money by litigating in support of the indefensible. > > Unless the three individuals who would make up the board are going to put the interests of the Company and the interests of the members ahead of some misguided rot that plagues the organization and actually sit down with legal representatives with a view to getting the Company back on track (rather than how to spend insane amounts of money on fruitless and wasteful defending the indefensible) things aren't going to get better. The membership rejected the financial statements and there are no appointed auditors.The suggestion on this list has been to relocate the company to a jurisdiction that would presumably turn a blind eye to the shanigans of the Company. As has been pointed out repeatedly in order for Afrinic to take up domicile elsewhere it would need to resolve the issues it has created for itself and remain solvent or it would have to wind up and be re-established which would mean going through an ICP-2 like process. > > On the other hand if the registered members step out and have their lawyers say "it was wrong for the Company to act in bad faith, we have a fiduciary responsibility to ensure that the Company not persist in courses of action that is unlawful, we would like the courts and/or members to sort out the mess" not only would many members provide the Company with considerable assistance but within a matter of days a lawful and rational path forward will be plotted together, rather than what is likely to be at least two years of continued ugliness - the sort of ugliness that hinders investment in infrastructure which is the main obstacle to increasing connectivity in Africa. > > > > > ...i thaught that the very AfriNIC's RM which is > pouring huge amount of money in attempting to > destroy a non profit company which enriches it; > would have been recognizant enough to invest > back in building some needed open Internet > Protocol based infrastructures accross Africa... > > ...and perhaps to lead IPv6 deployment accross > AfriNIC's service region? :'-( > > Question: If an LIR doesn't have an ASN, isn't that > a red signal (no BGP network) about its intent to > deploy no single infrastructure within the region? > :-/ > > Anyone willing to address this *problem*, through > the PDWG (Policy Development Working Group), > can freely join me in co-authoring a DPP (Draft > Policy Proposal) to be submitted soon. > > A normal LIR (Local Internet Registry) holding > such a huge amount of IPv4 resources would > have been a natural source of various investments > within the region associated with the RIR (Regional > Internet Registry) which allocated those Internet > number resources. But that very AfriNIC's RM > seems to prefer to waste its money, gained in > exploiting (out of region) those IPv4 resources, > to fight AfriNIC; while attempting to corrupt this > RIR's community, the other AfriNIC's RMs and the > entire INRS' community... :'-( > > ...*investing*, an apparently unlimited budget, in > numerous litigations against a non profit, while no > record of infrastructural investment accross that > RIR's service region seems to exist... > > As i might have been wrong from the beginning... > then, please, brother feel free to correct me. > > Remain blessed! > > Shalom, > --sb. > > > > > Even if they simply came out and said "the unlawful purported extension was wrong and we need the consequences of that to be sorted out" (and remember of the 4 directors . The problem quite simply is that because they know that people like you will viciously attack them if they were to do the right thing and this is the heart of the problem at Afrinic. > > On Thu, 16 Jun 2022 at 21:16, Noah > wrote: > > On Thu, 16 Jun 2022, 17:42 Paul Hjul, > wrote: > Considering that its been a day since the order > > https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/interim > > Noah > > > -- > Best Regards ! > __ > baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]|> > Subscribe to Mailing List: > > __ > #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? > ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? > ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Mon Jun 20 06:36:27 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2022 09:36:27 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <6C91C620-8EC5-417C-BF6E-0C63B1EFCD06@delong.com> <8C28117D-C55F-4F4B-9C33-777A21EF5AFA@arin.net> <582E1C7E-9BAF-4899-B326-76882D03FB45@delong.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Jun 2022, 20:44 John Curran, wrote: > > On 16 Jun 2022, at 11:43 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > > On Jun 15, 2022, at 13:07 , John Curran wrote: > > Since you?re opining on such matters, do you believe a "plain text > reading" of the applicable documents allows AFRINIC to restrict use to the > same purpose for which they were originally requested and issued? > > > Unless notification was provided pursuant to RSA clause 4(iv)(3), yes. > > > Owen - > > If you are referring to clause 4(c)(iv)(3), then I am rather surprised, > since that clause refers not to simply a ?notification" to AFRINIC, but > rather an *"update _any_ data submitted to AFRINIC? *(emphasis added)*? *there > is quite a substantial difference. > > My understanding is that in the case of Cloud Innovation, this requirement > was met by updates to WHOIS, as no other process for providing said updates > is provided in the RSA, CPM, or bylaws. > > > There are numerous clauses in the AFRINIC RSA that can require a party > provide notice (and/or updating associated information) to AFRINIC despite > having no specific process for submission ? and it is my understanding that > parties manage to provide such notice and/or updated information via actual > mail/courier/email processes all the time. Is it your belief that simple > Whois updates would suffice for any of the other AFRINIC RSA notice/update > clauses? Why would this be the case? > > I only ask because I don?t quite understand how a Whois update could ever > considered a substantive response to a requirement for a party to update > ?any data submitted to AFRINIC" [as per 4(c)(iv)(3)] ? and particularly in > circumstances where the new intended usage has substantially changed from > the original request for resources. Does your understanding of the > situation include how or why such a Whois update could possible satisfy the > irrevocable obligation to keep updated the information supplied to AFRINIC > during RSA application? > > Thanks, > /John > > John Curran > President and CEO > American Registry for Internet Numbers > Owen, Did you miss the above message? FYI now.... can you respond to the questions asked by Mr.John? Cheers, Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Mon Jun 20 06:37:38 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2022 09:37:38 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] RIRs Message to the AFRINIC Community In-Reply-To: <4C1EBC83-72D2-4D66-BDEC-0098890DFC0A@delong.com> References: <23632BF0-C8B5-4FF3-8D73-8FE4C367F0DB@afrinic.net> <4C1EBC83-72D2-4D66-BDEC-0098890DFC0A@delong.com> Message-ID: Owen.... On Mon, 20 Jun 2022, 09:06 Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss, < community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > It is nice to see such support for efforts to clean up the AFRINIC board > coming > Where in the message has the board been mentioned? Its therefore not surprising that you are attempting to dilute a very important and extremely significant message with yet another misleading misinformation. We in this region have seen through you since your earlier years of such comments as "Afrinic is a vapourware". from the other RIRs. > The African community shall read and conclude on its own what the message from the other RIR is calling for and most importantly the sentence below from their important letter. And I quote.... "The current challenges affecting AFRINIC are of great concern to us. We urge the AFRINIC membership and the wider community in Africa, including civil society and governments, to work together to support their RIR at a time when it needs assistance and guidance in the form of constructive input.: Cheers, Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Mon Jun 20 07:04:00 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2022 08:04:00 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: <40777218-6529-4B2F-83AD-F6AD93206285@delong.com> References: <0C06A259-4164-4A9C-9D80-414A435BC897@delong.com> <40777218-6529-4B2F-83AD-F6AD93206285@delong.com> Message-ID: wen, the discussion is not about the board, the emails are very clear, and read well. A bribe is a criminal offense, and so is offering a bribe, multiple offenses can amount to conspiracy. My disagreements with the board and AfriNIC were addressed through correct channels, ethically, objectively, and professionally. If we don't see changes, there are ways we can follow as members from within AfriNIC and not through the courts. On Mon, Jun 20, 2022 at 7:12 AM Owen DeLong wrote: > > > On Jun 19, 2022, at 06:25 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > The discussion here is not about the board. > > > It is as far as I am concerned. > > > > Don't confuse Ethical/unethical conduct, with acts against the law. > > > The board has committed both. > > To the best of my knowledge, NRS has committed only unethical/immoral and > not illegal acts. > > Offering bribes to influence the outcome of the elections endangers our > role as members, questions the integrity of the nominee by such > organization using bribe and defamation to take control of AfriNic while > fighting it on the other hand, > > > To the best of my knowledge, NRS has no open litigation against AFRINIC, > so I?m not sure what you mean here. > > How members are getting onboarded to such organization? by giving them > ipv4 /24 pool and as stated by them (worth 1500$) free of charge and they > can use it for as long as the owner doesn't want it for the mean time. This > pool of ipv4 is given to encourage people to: > - join the organization > - sign NDA > - sign a petition against afrinic ? the context then was loss of trust? > - sign documents to transfer your ip resources to RIPE NCC > > > I have no idea. I have no relationship with NRS. > > Microsoft took immediate steps to regain the public image and maybe still > working on that, we never heard of Microsoft bribing members of Apnic to > put a board of directors in Apnic to act as their minions. > > > There are still open questions around the ethics of how Microsoft managed > to ?comply? with ARIN policies in justifying the need for the IPv4 > addresses they acquired from Nortel. > > The practice is questionable and doubtful as well as the intentions, why > would someone spend this amount of money to win an election to board ? If > you say to make changes fir the (transparency and accountability) etc I > would say baby-girls believe in unicorns and a few until they are 18, just > like how we all believed once (because of media) that there is a superhero > somewhere called Superman. > > > Again, you should ask the NRS directly. As I said, I have no affiliation > with NRS. > > Owen > > > On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:21 PM Owen DeLong wrote: > >> >> >> On Jun 18, 2022, at 04:51, Amin Dayekh wrote: >> >> ? >> Dont forget that the acts are related directly and simultaneously to >> their allegations. >> >> >> As I have previously stated? I have no affiliation with NRS and find >> their conduct to be both immoral and unethical. >> >> Nonetheless, that does not change the fact that the board has repeatedly >> acted against the bylaws, the RSA, the CPM, and the companies act. >> >> Simply because one (of many) accusers has acted unethically does not >> invalidate the voracity of their claims when there is additional clear >> evidence and testimony from other independent sources. >> >> It is a course of time and good conduct that takes the enterprise to >> prove their good standing and change the general perception. >> >> >> Which I have. I know my opinions are not popular in recent history, but I >> am continuing to strive for an open, transparent, and accountable AFRINIC >> administered according to its governing documents and the law in the >> interests of its community and its members. >> >> You can choose to believe that or not. I have a long history of activism >> in the RIR system. When I started struggling for provider independent IPv6 >> assignments and allocations, that was not a popular view, either. Now it is >> policy in all 5 RIRs. >> >> Anyways I wish you well. >> >> >> Likewise. I hope you will keep an open mind and judge AFRINIC?s conduct >> on its merits rather than on your opinion of one (or even a few) of its >> detractors. There are real problems here that need to be solved. The sooner >> the community and the members can come to agreement around that instead of >> using the noise around the conduct of some of the entities pointing these >> things out, the better for everyone. >> >> Solve the real central problems and most of the noise will fall away very >> quickly. >> >> Owen >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 11:06 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:26 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>> >>> You answered yes to my question, whereby I asked clearly rephrased here: >>> a company offering bribe to people to vote in their favor, will this >>> company be in a lny good standing or credible to talk about corruption >>> again? >>> >>> >>> Yes. >>> >>> Are you sure? >>> >>> >>> Yes. >>> >>> Just because a company has committed some bad acts does not mean that >>> every thing they say can be discounted or regarded as non-credible. >>> >>> If such were the case, nobody would ever buy Microsoft products, for >>> after all, that company is a convicted felon. >>> >>> The California PUC regularly listens to PG&E despite their numerous >>> felony convictions as a company. >>> >>> >>> Owen, if I ask you today to take $100 to vote for me in the upcoming >>> election in Camaros to be MP, and after a few days you see me in the news >>> lecturing about corruption and pointing fingers at people whom i am >>> labeling as corrupted, that is ok by you and you will accept my word? >>> >>> >>> It is certainly OK by me. >>> >>> Whether or not I will accept your word will depend on a great many >>> factors not in evidence in the current discussion, so I cannot give a >>> certain answer to that last question, which is pretty much what I said in >>> the previous response below. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 8:19 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:00 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>> >>>> Good Morning Owen, >>>> >>>> There is something i wanted to ask you about, but please give me a >>>> short answer and straight forward: >>>> >>>> In your opinion, an organization that is offering bribe to people in >>>> order to get their votes, in order to influence the outcome of the >>>> elections to her favor in Camaros, - will that organization be trustworthy ? >>>> >>>> >>>> With the limited information in your question, it?s impossible to form >>>> a complete opinion, but probably not. >>>> >>>> - Will that organization have any right again to lecture about >>>> corruption while it is promoting the culture of corruption (allegedly as >>>> per above if it is true)? >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes. >>>> >>>> - will you trust any word from that organization? >>>> >>>> >>>> Unknown, insufficient data provided. >>>> >>>> - will you have faith and rely on their intensions that they are >>>> upright? >>>> >>>> >>>> I rarely have faith or rely on upright intentions of any organization. >>>> >>>> I am not pointing any finger at you , rather i am just seeking your >>>> opinion pls. >>>> >>>> >>>> My opinion is mostly unformed as insufficient data is given in your >>>> question. >>>> >>>> Owen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:30 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 16, 2022, at 22:26 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I am not replying to this news paper, nor I have time to read it all. >>>>> >>>>> I will also ask you to remember your statement here, ( the resource >>>>> holder are pushing for a transfer policy) i will also prove you wrong! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I look forward to your attempt to do so. >>>>> >>>>> I find it amusing how you have cherry picked what you respond to while >>>>> ignoring the most salient points in the prior messages to the point where >>>>> when I limit it to the salient points, you choose to ignore the entire >>>>> message rather than make a cogent response. >>>>> >>>>> Owen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 4:40 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:00 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Owen, >>>>>> for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red >>>>>> from your ext >>>>>> >>>>>> *quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their >>>>>> underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) *you used >>>>>> the term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever the >>>>>> term is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an application >>>>>> with the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, just like when >>>>>> you apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let me remind us >>>>>> here of the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another member. this >>>>>> step was taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own majority of the >>>>>> IPV4, and to regulate the transfers and continue to monitor the ipv4, >>>>>> closing the door on black and grey market. let me remind us also that such >>>>>> cases peculiar to need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever reason the >>>>>> company might be dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip resources are >>>>>> assigned "not sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Neither Larus nor Cloud Innovation is selling resources received from >>>>>> AFRINIC? I stated that many other resource holders wish to do so and that >>>>>> is one of the reasons that those resource holders are pushing for a >>>>>> transfer policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is not inconsistent, it is your inability to differentiate >>>>>> and/or your failure to look past your efforts to ascribe the most sinister >>>>>> possible motives to every statement I make. >>>>>> >>>>>> The RIR doesn?t govern anything. The community governs the RIR and >>>>>> the RIR is supposed to administer the registry according to the policies >>>>>> set by the community and according to its bylaws which are controlled by >>>>>> the membership of the RIR. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps it is this fundamental misunderstanding of who is >>>>>> specifically supposed to be empowered in the governance of the internet and >>>>>> as a result the RIRs that is driving some of your other misstatements. >>>>>> >>>>>> For clarity: >>>>>> >>>>>> ICANN/PTI in its role performing the IANA operates the central >>>>>> registry for IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses, and ASNs (among other things). >>>>>> It does so according to global policies which are set by the RIRs acting in >>>>>> concert through the Address Supporting Organization, specifically the ASO >>>>>> AC, which is synonymous with the NRO NC. >>>>>> >>>>>> Each RIR receives resources from the IANA central registry according >>>>>> to its justified need and pursuant to those policies mentioned above. >>>>>> >>>>>> Each RIR distributes those resources to its subscribers (members or >>>>>> not, depending on the RIR?s specific policies) according to the policies >>>>>> set in the RIR by its community and according to the bylaws of the RIR set >>>>>> by its members. >>>>>> >>>>>> Each RIR is expected to operate within the policies created by its >>>>>> membership and according to its bylaws. When an RIR fails to do so, it >>>>>> becomes far more dangerous than is expected. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some RIR subscribers are LIRs (Local Internet Registries). LIRs >>>>>> provide address space to their customers (usually for a fee) whether in >>>>>> relationship with connectivity services or as a separate product. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some RIR subscribers are end users and simply use the address space >>>>>> they receive from the RIR directly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Every RIR except AFRINIC has an inter-RIR transfer policy at this >>>>>> point. Yes, the recipient needs to show need in the case of an inter-RIR >>>>>> transfer. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are many different reasons organizations want to be able to >>>>>> engage in inter-RIR transfers and I enumerated several of them. You chose >>>>>> to focus on a single one because that is the one you hope to be able to >>>>>> twist into something sinister. >>>>>> >>>>>> quote: ( *.... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies >>>>>> who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note >>>>>> that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. >>>>>> This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a >>>>>> fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and >>>>>> has never received serious attention in any other RIR.) *Answer: AfriNIC >>>>>> got the smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing >>>>>> a policy "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell >>>>>> will be suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the >>>>>> scarcity of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and >>>>>> retrieval is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you >>>>>> are referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and >>>>>> have ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable >>>>>> to AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do >>>>>> such, with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future >>>>>> of Africa. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If you are opposed to an inter-RIR transfer policy, then so be it. >>>>>> That has little or nothing to do with whether or not existing addresses >>>>>> registered to an organization by AFRINIC are allowed to be used outside of >>>>>> AFRICA or not. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, the policy that does exist now clearly does allow AFRINIC >>>>>> addresses to be utilized out of region virtually without restriction. A >>>>>> plain text reading of section 6 of the bylaws makes this quite clear. A >>>>>> plain text reading of the CPM finds only one place where this is >>>>>> contradicted and it applies ONLY to addresses issued after the activation >>>>>> of the Soft Landing policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you want to conduct legitimate audits, feel free. If you wish to >>>>>> abide by the legitimate outcome of those audits when they show legitimate >>>>>> utilization according to the CPM, the RSA, and the bylaws, I?ll fully >>>>>> support that. However, use out of region does not violate any of the terms >>>>>> in any of those documents unless the addresses were issued to the >>>>>> organization after the activation of the soft landing policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> AFRINIC is free to enforce any policy which has been adopted by the >>>>>> community and ratified by the board. There is no policy restricting the >>>>>> location of utilization of addresses which meets that test at this time. >>>>>> >>>>>> *quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the >>>>>> geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation >>>>>> from you.)* I did not make any statement about winning on >>>>>> geographical grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not >>>>>> say? who is misinforming now? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You stated: "AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me >>>>>> here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa >>>>>> then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the >>>>>> Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod >>>>>> have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the >>>>>> Judicial System. ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Your claim is that AFRINIC should have already lost all cases on >>>>>> geographic basis if my statement was true. I pointed out that AFRINIC has >>>>>> neither lost nor won because the cases that relate to this matter have not >>>>>> yet concluded. I did not put words in your mouth, I responded to what you >>>>>> actually said. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir if >>>>>> you really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft landing >>>>>> was easy. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ARIN never passed a soft landing policy and it worked out quite well >>>>>> there, IMHO. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, the only mention I have made regarding soft landing in any >>>>>> of these statements is to mention that it is the only policy with >>>>>> geographical restrictions on utilization codified in the policy. I?ve also >>>>>> pointed out that said policy does not apply to any addresses issued to >>>>>> Cloud Innovation. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or >>>>>> client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the >>>>>> list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.)* >>>>>> did i say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining >>>>>> and dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is >>>>>> revolving because of you and around you? I said : *Anyone *can >>>>>> convince *himself with any lie* and convince the minions involved in >>>>>> this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie), >>>>>> did you see you or me or owen or amin in this statement? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You made the following direct statement in a message sent directly to >>>>>> me as well as an open list: >>>>>> "Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions >>>>>> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to >>>>>> spread lie)? >>>>>> >>>>>> In context, it is quite clear you were intending to level this as a >>>>>> direct accusation towards me. Your use of weasel words and attempted >>>>>> evasions notwithstanding, at least I have the courage to own what I say and >>>>>> take responsibility for it. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or >>>>>> client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the >>>>>> list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) *Again: >>>>>> Did I say you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I >>>>>> mention you? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You said: "When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he >>>>>> should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and >>>>>> under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes.? >>>>>> >>>>>> You said this in an email directed to me and copied to an open list. >>>>>> >>>>>> So in effect, yes, you did claim I published a video, you did point a >>>>>> finger presumably at me, and by having my name as the target of your email, >>>>>> yes, you did mention me for all practical purposes. >>>>>> >>>>>> My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on >>>>>> their website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and >>>>>> through a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the >>>>>> embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African >>>>>> Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan >>>>>> or the spokesperson of PTA? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> In terms of the subsequent emails in this discussion, you put my name >>>>>> in the To: field of your email. If you didn?t intend to involve me, why did >>>>>> you do so? >>>>>> In terms of the original message, you made a public comment about the >>>>>> letter being sent on behalf of a ?fraudulent and misleading organization?, >>>>>> so I felt obliged to point out your own misleading information that you >>>>>> have attempted to promulgate in this same forum and with your own misguided >>>>>> and misleading video. >>>>>> >>>>>> I will note, that you did not address the following component of my >>>>>> previous message: >>>>>> >>>>>> You wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to >>>>>> your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i >>>>>> want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions >>>>>> as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To which I responded: >>>>>> >>>>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error >>>>>> and be specific. >>>>>> >>>>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You carefully avoided answering this? Is it perhaps because you have >>>>>> no answer here? You could not find an actual misquote? >>>>>> >>>>>> I find three messages into this conversation that this statement: "I >>>>>> have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure >>>>>> is justifying a wrong cause.? >>>>>> is truly telling as apparently I am not such a second party and >>>>>> therefore perhaps you are admitting by your actions that I do not actually >>>>>> have a wrong cause. If so, this is progress. >>>>>> >>>>>> Owen >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Owen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Don?t rush, all in good time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no >>>>>>> single piece of evidence! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to >>>>>>> refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then >>>>>>> why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the >>>>>>> Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod >>>>>>> have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the >>>>>>> Judicial System. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their >>>>>>>> underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market.* Other >>>>>>>> companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once >>>>>>>> the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some >>>>>>>> companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple >>>>>>>> RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons >>>>>>>> that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction >>>>>>>> on usage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a >>>>>>>> number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC >>>>>>>> issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it >>>>>>>> to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to >>>>>>>> Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of >>>>>>>> AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical >>>>>>> restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will >>>>>>> lose, as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support >>>>>>> such aa restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the >>>>>>> activation of the soft landing policy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend >>>>>>> their rights under the contract they signed against a board that is >>>>>>> misconstruing the bylaws and acting outside of its authority. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few >>>>>>> procedural victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a >>>>>>> series of injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal >>>>>>> actions it has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. >>>>>>> Most of the cases are still undecided. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions >>>>>>> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to >>>>>>> spread lie) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. >>>>>>> This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and >>>>>>> is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should >>>>>>> provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the >>>>>>> table corrupting the members to buy Votes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I?ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to >>>>>>> someone else here? Perhaps yourself? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to >>>>>>> your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i >>>>>>> want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions >>>>>>> as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error >>>>>>> and be specific. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which >>>>>>> company you are talking about?! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your >>>>>>> statements. I thought that was clear from the context. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Owen >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear members, >>>>>>>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources >>>>>>>> who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and >>>>>>>> AfriNIC. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government >>>>>>>> of Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the >>>>>>>> Pakistan tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan >>>>>>>> telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >>>>>>>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at >>>>>>>> least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >>>>>>>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our >>>>>>>> sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations >>>>>>>> through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support >>>>>>>> of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how >>>>>>>> Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the >>>>>>>> last time I checked, is not an African country. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued >>>>>>>> addresses are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the >>>>>>>> bylaws, RSA, or CPM says so? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications >>>>>>>> and corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the >>>>>>>> one engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Owen >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iyedigoma at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 07:53:51 2022 From: iyedigoma at gmail.com (Iyedi Goma) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2022 08:53:51 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] RIRs Message to the AFRINIC Community In-Reply-To: <23632BF0-C8B5-4FF3-8D73-8FE4C367F0DB@afrinic.net> References: <23632BF0-C8B5-4FF3-8D73-8FE4C367F0DB@afrinic.net> Message-ID: voici que cela sonne comme un glad : "We are very concerned about the current challenges affecting AFRINIC. We urge AFRINIC members and the wider African community, including civil society and governments, to work together to support their RIR at a time when it needs help and guidance in the form of constructive input... : Je pense que ce message se pr?sente ? nous comme une forme d' invite ? l' apaisement, la construction non ? la destruction mais surtout pendant ses heures sombres de pouvoir et vouloir mettre les int?r?ts de base ou fondamentaux de cette communaut?s en priorit?. la question que je ne cesse de me poser c 'est pourquoi l'on veut fournir autant d' effort pour vouloir jeter le b?b? avec l' eau sale? Si nos int?r?ts converger bien comme ?tant une communaut? et non comme un groupe ?parse des gens avec des agendas cach? nous devons d?noncer cette mani?re de faire, nous devons avec courage et ?nergie savoir qu' AFRINIC un bien de la communaut? et c est dans notre plus profond soi qu il doit existe et brillant. cordiale journ?e ? tous ######################################################################### here is what sounds like a gladness: "We are very concerned about the current challenges affecting AFRINIC. We urge AFRINIC members and the wider African community, including civil society and governments, to work together to support their RIR at a time when it needs help and guidance in the form of constructive input... : I think that this message comes to us as a form of invitation to appease, to build not to destroy but especially in its dark hours of power and to want to put the basic or fundamental interests of this community first. The question I keep asking myself is why do we want to make so much effort to throw the baby out with the dirty water? If our interests converge well as a community and not as a scattered group of people with hidden agendas we must denounce this way of doing things, we must with courage and energy know that AFRINIC is a community asset and it is in our deepest self that it must exist and shine. Sincerely yours Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) Le lun. 20 juin 2022 ? 06:58, AFRINIC Communication a ?crit : > Dear AFRINIC Members and Community, > > In the context of the ongoing challenges faced by AFRINIC, the other > Regional Internet Registries, APNIC, ARIN, RIPE NCC and LACNIC have sent a > message to the AFRINIC Community. > > We invite you to read the message published at: > https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/ > > AFRINIC Communications > > ????.. > > Chers membres et communaut? d'AFRINIC, > > Dans le contexte des enjeux actuels auxquels fait face l'AFRINIC, les > autres Registres Internet r?gionaux, APNIC, ARIN, RIPE NCC et LACNIC ont > envoy? un message ? la Communaut? AFRINIC. > > Nous vous invitons ? lire le message publi? sur : > https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/ > > Communications AFRINIC > > ?????? > > ?????? ????? ?????? AFRINIC ? > > ?? ???? ???????? ???????? ???? ??????? AFRINIC ? ???? ????? ???????? > ????????? ?????? ? APNIC ? ARIN ? RIPE NCC ? LACNIC ?????? ????? ??? ????? > AFRINIC. > > ????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???: > https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/ > > AFRINIC ????????? > > ??????... > > Caros Membros AFRINIC e Comunidade, > > No contexto dos actuais desafios enfrentados pela AFRINIC, os outros > Registos Regionais de Internet, APNIC, ARIN, RIPE NCC e LACNIC enviaram uma > mensagem ? Comunidade AFRINIC. > > Convidamo-lo a ler a mensagem publicada em: > https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/ > > Comunica??es AFR?NICAS > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hjul.paul at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 07:58:25 2022 From: hjul.paul at gmail.com (Paul Hjul) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2022 09:58:25 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Interim order of June 14th 2022 Message-ID: // cutting just to the crux ... Hi Paul, Thanks for your email, brother. ...while reading your numerous long emails, i still don't understand why you seem to essentially behaving in support of a rioting activity started against both this RIR & the whole INRS (Internet Numbers Registry System - RFC7020). Hi Sylvain I think there is a simple element of the situation which you aren't taking proper cognizance of which is that the rioters are not those members who are angry and have resorted to litigation but rather it is the individuals who are egging the organization on to behave lawlessly. My position is always "Afrinic's problems arise because Afrinic doesn't follow its own rules". Therefore even if I were fully supportive of the operation of the INRS I would still be taking the position that Afrinic's lawlessness is a problem. There are problems with RFC7020 and with the NRO system as it currently is honestly so much of the problem comes from conflating organizations and roles in an unhealthy manner and I know we can't go back to 1998. So for example if you look back in this and the members mailing list you'll notice that I broached the fact that the injunction on holding the election I asked for an SGMM. In the discussion I made it clear that despite some areas where I felt the NRS is overreaching - and being too partisan for my liking - I would sign it and would sign on to any appropriate petition to call for an SGMM that could make the requisite 5% mark. The clock here is important because after the AGMM the board doesn't have 5 members, it has 3. It has insufficient members to operate an ordinary Board meeting (the by-laws appear to allow for a reduced quorum but there are major caveats to that), it doesn't have sufficient members to operate various committees - your audit committee can't be chaired by the CEO or char of the board so only the third member of the board can hold it but then you've got other committees and well you've run out of board members who aren't already executive or chairing in conflict. All of this can only be solved through the court or through an SGMM. The problem could have been avoided if the AGMM agenda had a resolution to deal with the lapsing of board but members where refused the opportunity to rectify the agenda. Quite simply the minute the then Board put Noah onto the nominations committee it was clear that the committee was going to behave improperly. As soon as an injuction was granted the then Board knew that they would be walking into a problem and a postponement or calling of an SGMM was the logical choice. As issues were fleshed out it was clear that a special adoption of an amended agenda was needed. I pushed for this to be done. The organization could have held a perfectly functioning AGMM whereat consensus building and a path forward could have been devised followed by an SGMM to adopt financial statements. None of this was done. As I see it that is wholly a failure of the organization to respect its membership. I specifically travelled to Johannesburg to attend an Afrinic engagement. It was a great opportunity to build on work towards getting the organization on track, but it also showed the stark disconnect between the then Board and the organization at large. The "rioting" activity you speak of is internal to Afrinic. Remember I have repeatedly pushed for an ADR settlement and for dispute resolution mechanisms to be built into the RSA. I really like your use of the term "rioting" here though because its a subject I've actually done some work on and the major cause of riots is a situation in which rioting is felt by potential participants as the most or only viable course. To reduce the likelihood of a riot you build institutional mechanisms - which is exactly what I always argue for. But this is Afrinics problem, the organization faced with a challenge will rather dig in its heels and spends thousands on litigation and will ignore proper legal advice. I have no doubt that Afrinic's successive boards have been presented with settlement offers and with opportunities to resolve the litigation in a less adversarial manner. From where I am sitting the only reason why litigation has not been resolved is because Afrinic refuse act in good faith. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From abscoco at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 11:28:52 2022 From: abscoco at gmail.com (Sylvain Baya) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2022 12:28:52 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Interim order of June 14th 2022 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear AfriNIC's Community, Please find my comments inline... Le lundi 20 juin 2022, Owen DeLong a ?crit : > To be very clear here, IMHO, AFRINIC and the AFRINIC membership and > community are not the adversaries in the law suit. > > > Hi Owen, Thanks for your email, brother. ...maybe you need to read the NRO's message [1] twice. Then allow me, please, to paste a slice of it. [...] "The current challenges affecting AFRINIC are of great concern to us. We urge the AFRINIC membership and the wider community in Africa, including civil society and governments, to work together to support their RIR at a time when it needs assistance and guidance in the form of constructive input. The excessive number of court cases against AFRINIC are of particular concern to other RIRs because they represent a threat to AFRINIC?s autonomy and its community. These challenges are designed, we believe, to cause serious damage to both." [...] __ [1]: https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/#:~:text=The%20current%20challenges,damage%20to%20both . > > > As far as I am concerned, the AFRINIC board and management are the > adversaries and they are so _BECAUSE_ they are acting contrary to the > bylaws and against the interests of the membership and community. > > ...may i need to recall you that some of the individual contributors of our RIR's community have been also sued; in an machiavelous attempt to send a resounding message to the other members of our Community; incliding the RMs. Wait! the time is near to come when at least a considerable part of the ~2046 AfriNIC's RMs would understand the need to join their efforts to fight against their common known, or unknown, ennemies. This example of joining efforts and intents in one common initiative, from the other five RIRs, is worth being reproduce, less passively, within this RIR's service region... ...i, hereby, call all the LIR to do their part in providing a resounding common reaction to follow the well appreciated message [2] sent by the NRO. "To the AFRINIC community, we wish to say, AFRINIC is your RIR. Its challenges are your challenges, and its successes are your successes. We urge you to come together to help steer AFRINIC in a positive direction and to build on the contributions that you have all made to the development of the Internet on your continent." __ [2] https://www.nro.net/rirs-message-to-the-afrinic-community/#:~:text=To%20the%20AFRINIC,on%20your%20continent . Many thanks to John, Paul, Oscar, Hans & Eddy! Keep fighting to defend the INRS (RFC7020)! Shalom, --sb. > > > > Owen > > > On Jun 19, 2022, at 15:14 , Sylvain Baya wrote: > > >>> [...] >>>> >>> >>> > -- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]| Subscribe to Mailing List: __ #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu Mon Jun 20 17:10:36 2022 From: ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu (Ish Sookun) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2022 21:10:36 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Interim order of June 14th 2022 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Owen, > On 20 Jun 2022, at 10:20, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: > > As far as I am concerned, the AFRINIC board and management are the adversaries and they are so _BECAUSE_ they are acting contrary to the bylaws and against the interests of the membership and community. > By saying that ?they are acting [...] against the interests of the membership and community, are you speaking for the majority of members and the community? You can perhaps speak for one organisation or maybe a few, but I don?t think your statement represents the sentiment of the community. Regards, Ish Sookun -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Mon Jun 20 17:30:39 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2022 20:30:39 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Interim order of June 14th 2022 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paulo.... On Mon, 20 Jun 2022, 11:04 Paul Hjul, wrote: > // cutting just to the crux > > ... > > Hi Paul, > > Thanks for your email, brother. > > ...while reading your numerous long emails, i still > > don't understand why you seem to essentially > > behaving in support of a rioting activity started against both this RIR & > > the whole INRS (Internet > > Numbers Registry System - RFC7020). > > Hi Sylvain > > Quite simply the minute the then Board put Noah onto the nominations > committee it was clear that the committee was going to behave improperly. > I am pinning your statement above. Expect a response at some point in a not so distant future. Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jun 21 07:14:36 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2022 00:14:36 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <0C06A259-4164-4A9C-9D80-414A435BC897@delong.com> <40777218-6529-4B2F-83AD-F6AD93206285@delong.com> Message-ID: <598B27E6-9C6F-4A00-8FB9-F53E84427E8C@delong.com> > On Jun 20, 2022, at 00:04 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > > wen, the discussion is not about the board, the emails are very clear, and read well. A bribe is a criminal offense, and so is offering a bribe, multiple offenses can amount to conspiracy. My disagreements with the board and AfriNIC were addressed through correct channels, ethically, objectively, and professionally. If we don't see changes, there are ways we can follow as members from within AfriNIC and not through the courts. I?m not aware of any bribery or criminal conduct. There is a very fine legal line between making an investment in a company in exchange for certain rights or privileges and a bribe. I am not aware of any situations in which any such line has been crossed. I have not participated in any such situation on either side of that line other than as a normal shareholder in publicly traded (and a few private) companies, none of which are based in Africa or Afrinic members to the best of my knowledge (though at least one operates in Africa). I understand the topics you wish to pursue, but those topics are asked and answered and have nothing to do with me. As such, I?m not engaging in a discussion of those topics. OTOH, I am willing to engage in a discussion of the misdeeds of the board and the need for the membership and community of AFRINIC to take back control of their RIR and restore accountability and create greater transparency. > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2022 at 7:12 AM Owen DeLong > wrote: > > >> On Jun 19, 2022, at 06:25 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >> >> The discussion here is not about the board. > > It is as far as I am concerned. > > >> Don't confuse Ethical/unethical conduct, with acts against the law. > > The board has committed both. > > To the best of my knowledge, NRS has committed only unethical/immoral and not illegal acts. To be clear, I have committed neither to the best of my knowledge. > >> Offering bribes to influence the outcome of the elections endangers our role as members, questions the integrity of the nominee by such organization using bribe and defamation to take control of AfriNic while fighting it on the other hand, > > To the best of my knowledge, NRS has no open litigation against AFRINIC, so I?m not sure what you mean here. > >> How members are getting onboarded to such organization? by giving them ipv4 /24 pool and as stated by them (worth 1500$) free of charge and they can use it for as long as the owner doesn't want it for the mean time. This pool of ipv4 is given to encourage people to: >> - join the organization >> - sign NDA >> - sign a petition against afrinic ? the context then was loss of trust? >> - sign documents to transfer your ip resources to RIPE NCC > > I have no idea. I have no relationship with NRS. As I understand it now, the petition is not against AFRINIC, but in favor of calling an SGMM in order to pass certain resolutions to restore functionality to AFRINIC. > >> Microsoft took immediate steps to regain the public image and maybe still working on that, we never heard of Microsoft bribing members of Apnic to put a board of directors in Apnic to act as their minions. > > There are still open questions around the ethics of how Microsoft managed to ?comply? with ARIN policies in justifying the need for the IPv4 addresses they acquired from Nortel. > >> The practice is questionable and doubtful as well as the intentions, why would someone spend this amount of money to win an election to board ? If you say to make changes fir the (transparency and accountability) etc I would say baby-girls believe in unicorns and a few until they are 18, just like how we all believed once (because of media) that there is a superhero somewhere called Superman. > > Again, you should ask the NRS directly. As I said, I have no affiliation with NRS. > > Owen > >> >> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:21 PM Owen DeLong > wrote: >> >> >>> On Jun 18, 2022, at 04:51, Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> Dont forget that the acts are related directly and simultaneously to their allegations. >> >> As I have previously stated? I have no affiliation with NRS and find their conduct to be both immoral and unethical. >> >> Nonetheless, that does not change the fact that the board has repeatedly acted against the bylaws, the RSA, the CPM, and the companies act. >> >> Simply because one (of many) accusers has acted unethically does not invalidate the voracity of their claims when there is additional clear evidence and testimony from other independent sources. >> >>> It is a course of time and good conduct that takes the enterprise to prove their good standing and change the general perception. >> >> Which I have. I know my opinions are not popular in recent history, but I am continuing to strive for an open, transparent, and accountable AFRINIC administered according to its governing documents and the law in the interests of its community and its members. >> >> You can choose to believe that or not. I have a long history of activism in the RIR system. When I started struggling for provider independent IPv6 assignments and allocations, that was not a popular view, either. Now it is policy in all 5 RIRs. >> >>> Anyways I wish you well. >> >> Likewise. I hope you will keep an open mind and judge AFRINIC?s conduct on its merits rather than on your opinion of one (or even a few) of its detractors. There are real problems here that need to be solved. The sooner the community and the members can come to agreement around that instead of using the noise around the conduct of some of the entities pointing these things out, the better for everyone. >> >> Solve the real central problems and most of the noise will fall away very quickly. >> >> Owen >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 11:06 AM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:26 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>> >>>> You answered yes to my question, whereby I asked clearly rephrased here: a company offering bribe to people to vote in their favor, will this company be in a lny good standing or credible to talk about corruption again? >>> >>> Yes. >>> >>>> Are you sure? >>> >>> Yes. >>> >>> Just because a company has committed some bad acts does not mean that every thing they say can be discounted or regarded as non-credible. >>> >>> If such were the case, nobody would ever buy Microsoft products, for after all, that company is a convicted felon. >>> >>> The California PUC regularly listens to PG&E despite their numerous felony convictions as a company. >>> >>> >>>> Owen, if I ask you today to take $100 to vote for me in the upcoming election in Camaros to be MP, and after a few days you see me in the news lecturing about corruption and pointing fingers at people whom i am labeling as corrupted, that is ok by you and you will accept my word? >>> >>> It is certainly OK by me. >>> >>> Whether or not I will accept your word will depend on a great many factors not in evidence in the current discussion, so I cannot give a certain answer to that last question, which is pretty much what I said in the previous response below. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 8:19 AM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:00 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Good Morning Owen, >>>>> >>>>> There is something i wanted to ask you about, but please give me a short answer and straight forward: >>>>> >>>>> In your opinion, an organization that is offering bribe to people in order to get their votes, in order to influence the outcome of the elections to her favor in Camaros, - will that organization be trustworthy ? >>>> >>>> With the limited information in your question, it?s impossible to form a complete opinion, but probably not. >>>> >>>>> - Will that organization have any right again to lecture about corruption while it is promoting the culture of corruption (allegedly as per above if it is true)? >>>> >>>> Yes. >>>> >>>>> - will you trust any word from that organization? >>>> >>>> Unknown, insufficient data provided. >>>> >>>>> - will you have faith and rely on their intensions that they are upright? >>>> >>>> I rarely have faith or rely on upright intentions of any organization. >>>> >>>>> I am not pointing any finger at you , rather i am just seeking your opinion pls. >>>> >>>> My opinion is mostly unformed as insufficient data is given in your question. >>>> >>>> Owen >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:30 AM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 16, 2022, at 22:26 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not replying to this news paper, nor I have time to read it all. >>>>>> >>>>>> I will also ask you to remember your statement here, ( the resource holder are pushing for a transfer policy) i will also prove you wrong! >>>>> >>>>> I look forward to your attempt to do so. >>>>> >>>>> I find it amusing how you have cherry picked what you respond to while ignoring the most salient points in the prior messages to the point where when I limit it to the salient points, you choose to ignore the entire message rather than make a cogent response. >>>>> >>>>> Owen >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 4:40 AM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:00 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Owen, >>>>>>> for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red from your ext >>>>>>> >>>>>>> quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) you used the term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever the term is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an application with the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, just like when you apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let me remind us here of the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another member. this step was taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own majority of the IPV4, and to regulate the transfers and continue to monitor the ipv4, closing the door on black and grey market. let me remind us also that such cases peculiar to need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever reason the company might be dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip resources are assigned "not sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need. >>>>>> >>>>>> Neither Larus nor Cloud Innovation is selling resources received from AFRINIC? I stated that many other resource holders wish to do so and that is one of the reasons that those resource holders are pushing for a transfer policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is not inconsistent, it is your inability to differentiate and/or your failure to look past your efforts to ascribe the most sinister possible motives to every statement I make. >>>>>> >>>>>> The RIR doesn?t govern anything. The community governs the RIR and the RIR is supposed to administer the registry according to the policies set by the community and according to its bylaws which are controlled by the membership of the RIR. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps it is this fundamental misunderstanding of who is specifically supposed to be empowered in the governance of the internet and as a result the RIRs that is driving some of your other misstatements. >>>>>> >>>>>> For clarity: >>>>>> >>>>>> ICANN/PTI in its role performing the IANA operates the central registry for IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses, and ASNs (among other things). It does so according to global policies which are set by the RIRs acting in concert through the Address Supporting Organization, specifically the ASO AC, which is synonymous with the NRO NC. >>>>>> >>>>>> Each RIR receives resources from the IANA central registry according to its justified need and pursuant to those policies mentioned above. >>>>>> >>>>>> Each RIR distributes those resources to its subscribers (members or not, depending on the RIR?s specific policies) according to the policies set in the RIR by its community and according to the bylaws of the RIR set by its members. >>>>>> >>>>>> Each RIR is expected to operate within the policies created by its membership and according to its bylaws. When an RIR fails to do so, it becomes far more dangerous than is expected. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some RIR subscribers are LIRs (Local Internet Registries). LIRs provide address space to their customers (usually for a fee) whether in relationship with connectivity services or as a separate product. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some RIR subscribers are end users and simply use the address space they receive from the RIR directly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Every RIR except AFRINIC has an inter-RIR transfer policy at this point. Yes, the recipient needs to show need in the case of an inter-RIR transfer. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are many different reasons organizations want to be able to engage in inter-RIR transfers and I enumerated several of them. You chose to focus on a single one because that is the one you hope to be able to twist into something sinister. >>>>>> >>>>>>> quote: ( .... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR.) Answer: AfriNIC got the smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing a policy "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell will be suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the scarcity of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and retrieval is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you are referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and have ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable to AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do such, with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future of Africa. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you are opposed to an inter-RIR transfer policy, then so be it. That has little or nothing to do with whether or not existing addresses registered to an organization by AFRINIC are allowed to be used outside of AFRICA or not. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, the policy that does exist now clearly does allow AFRINIC addresses to be utilized out of region virtually without restriction. A plain text reading of section 6 of the bylaws makes this quite clear. A plain text reading of the CPM finds only one place where this is contradicted and it applies ONLY to addresses issued after the activation of the Soft Landing policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you want to conduct legitimate audits, feel free. If you wish to abide by the legitimate outcome of those audits when they show legitimate utilization according to the CPM, the RSA, and the bylaws, I?ll fully support that. However, use out of region does not violate any of the terms in any of those documents unless the addresses were issued to the organization after the activation of the soft landing policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> AFRINIC is free to enforce any policy which has been adopted by the community and ratified by the board. There is no policy restricting the location of utilization of addresses which meets that test at this time. >>>>>> >>>>>>> quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you.) I did not make any statement about winning on geographical grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not say? who is misinforming now? >>>>>> >>>>>> You stated: "AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Your claim is that AFRINIC should have already lost all cases on geographic basis if my statement was true. I pointed out that AFRINIC has neither lost nor won because the cases that relate to this matter have not yet concluded. I did not put words in your mouth, I responded to what you actually said. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir if you really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft landing was easy. >>>>>> >>>>>> ARIN never passed a soft landing policy and it worked out quite well there, IMHO. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, the only mention I have made regarding soft landing in any of these statements is to mention that it is the only policy with geographical restrictions on utilization codified in the policy. I?ve also pointed out that said policy does not apply to any addresses issued to Cloud Innovation. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.) did i say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining and dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is revolving because of you and around you? I said : Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie), did you see you or me or owen or amin in this statement? >>>>>> >>>>>> You made the following direct statement in a message sent directly to me as well as an open list: >>>>>> "Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie)? >>>>>> >>>>>> In context, it is quite clear you were intending to level this as a direct accusation towards me. Your use of weasel words and attempted evasions notwithstanding, at least I have the courage to own what I say and take responsibility for it. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) Again: Did I say you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I mention you? >>>>>> >>>>>> You said: "When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes.? >>>>>> >>>>>> You said this in an email directed to me and copied to an open list. >>>>>> >>>>>> So in effect, yes, you did claim I published a video, you did point a finger presumably at me, and by having my name as the target of your email, yes, you did mention me for all practical purposes. >>>>>> >>>>>>> My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on their website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and through a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan or the spokesperson of PTA? >>>>>> >>>>>> In terms of the subsequent emails in this discussion, you put my name in the To: field of your email. If you didn?t intend to involve me, why did you do so? >>>>>> In terms of the original message, you made a public comment about the letter being sent on behalf of a ?fraudulent and misleading organization?, so I felt obliged to point out your own misleading information that you have attempted to promulgate in this same forum and with your own misguided and misleading video. >>>>>> >>>>>> I will note, that you did not address the following component of my previous message: >>>>>> >>>>>> You wrote: >>>>>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>>>>> >>>>>> To which I responded: >>>>>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be specific. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You carefully avoided answering this? Is it perhaps because you have no answer here? You could not find an actual misquote? >>>>>> >>>>>> I find three messages into this conversation that this statement: "I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause.? >>>>>> is truly telling as apparently I am not such a second party and therefore perhaps you are admitting by your actions that I do not actually have a wrong cause. If so, this is progress. >>>>>> >>>>>> Owen >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Owen, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Don?t rush, all in good time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no single piece of evidence! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the Judicial System. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. Other companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction on usage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose, as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of the soft landing policy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend their rights under the contract they signed against a board that is misconstruing the bylaws and acting outside of its authority. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few procedural victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a series of injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal actions it has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. Most of the cases are still undecided. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I?ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to someone else here? Perhaps yourself? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and be specific. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which company you are talking about?! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your statements. I thought that was clear from the context. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Owen >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear members, >>>>>>>>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and AfriNIC. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government of Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the Pakistan tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >>>>>>>>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >>>>>>>>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the last time I checked, is not an African country. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or CPM says so? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Owen >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Tue Jun 21 07:22:42 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2022 08:22:42 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: <598B27E6-9C6F-4A00-8FB9-F53E84427E8C@delong.com> References: <0C06A259-4164-4A9C-9D80-414A435BC897@delong.com> <40777218-6529-4B2F-83AD-F6AD93206285@delong.com> <598B27E6-9C6F-4A00-8FB9-F53E84427E8C@delong.com> Message-ID: In simple terms, it seems you are much aware of the conduct, I can conclude or at least assume that when I read between the lines. Tracking the history of the offers, the offer of investment was the last step taken by them to Legalise this. Contracts between businesses are defined by intentions, they want to get the right of access to the myafrinic.net account and vote on the members' behalf while in return they pay an amount of money (considered) investment of 1% share to legalize this process. mind you the shares 1% came at a very recent period. Even with this contract of 1% it is still contestable and very fragile to stand as a legal deed. Going through your emails, seems you are much aware of this, otherwise how did you bring the investment issue up? Have a good day and this discussion is going nowhere, it is your good fortune I am having coffee now and decided to reply to you. On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 8:15 AM Owen DeLong wrote: > > > On Jun 20, 2022, at 00:04 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > > wen, the discussion is not about the board, the emails are very clear, and > read well. A bribe is a criminal offense, and so is offering a bribe, > multiple offenses can amount to conspiracy. My disagreements with the board > and AfriNIC were addressed through correct channels, ethically, > objectively, and professionally. If we don't see changes, there are ways we > can follow as members from within AfriNIC and not through the courts. > > > I?m not aware of any bribery or criminal conduct. > > There is a very fine legal line between making an investment in a company > in exchange for certain rights or privileges and a bribe. I am not aware of > any situations in which any such line has been crossed. I have not > participated in any such situation on either side of that line other than > as a normal shareholder in publicly traded (and a few private) companies, > none of which are based in Africa or Afrinic members to the best of my > knowledge (though at least one operates in Africa). > > I understand the topics you wish to pursue, but those topics are asked and > answered and have nothing to do with me. As such, I?m not engaging in a > discussion of those topics. > > OTOH, I am willing to engage in a discussion of the misdeeds of the board > and the need for the membership and community of AFRINIC to take back > control of their RIR and restore accountability and create greater > transparency. > > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2022 at 7:12 AM Owen DeLong wrote: > >> >> >> On Jun 19, 2022, at 06:25 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >> >> The discussion here is not about the board. >> >> >> It is as far as I am concerned. >> >> > >> >> > Don't confuse Ethical/unethical conduct, with acts against the law. >> >> >> The board has committed both. >> >> To the best of my knowledge, NRS has committed only unethical/immoral and >> not illegal acts. >> > > To be clear, I have committed neither to the best of my knowledge. > > >> Offering bribes to influence the outcome of the elections endangers our >> role as members, questions the integrity of the nominee by such >> organization using bribe and defamation to take control of AfriNic while >> fighting it on the other hand, >> >> >> To the best of my knowledge, NRS has no open litigation against AFRINIC, >> so I?m not sure what you mean here. >> >> How members are getting onboarded to such organization? by giving them >> ipv4 /24 pool and as stated by them (worth 1500$) free of charge and they >> can use it for as long as the owner doesn't want it for the mean time. This >> pool of ipv4 is given to encourage people to: >> - join the organization >> - sign NDA >> - sign a petition against afrinic ? the context then was loss of trust? >> - sign documents to transfer your ip resources to RIPE NCC >> >> >> I have no idea. I have no relationship with NRS. >> > > As I understand it now, the petition is not against AFRINIC, but in favor > of calling an SGMM in order to pass certain resolutions to restore > functionality to AFRINIC. > > >> Microsoft took immediate steps to regain the public image and maybe still >> working on that, we never heard of Microsoft bribing members of Apnic to >> put a board of directors in Apnic to act as their minions. >> >> >> There are still open questions around the ethics of how Microsoft managed >> to ?comply? with ARIN policies in justifying the need for the IPv4 >> addresses they acquired from Nortel. >> >> The practice is questionable and doubtful as well as the intentions, why >> would someone spend this amount of money to win an election to board ? If >> you say to make changes fir the (transparency and accountability) etc I >> would say baby-girls believe in unicorns and a few until they are 18, just >> like how we all believed once (because of media) that there is a superhero >> somewhere called Superman. >> >> >> Again, you should ask the NRS directly. As I said, I have no affiliation >> with NRS. >> >> Owen >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:21 PM Owen DeLong wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 18, 2022, at 04:51, Amin Dayekh wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> Dont forget that the acts are related directly and simultaneously to >>> their allegations. >>> >>> >>> As I have previously stated? I have no affiliation with NRS and find >>> their conduct to be both immoral and unethical. >>> >>> Nonetheless, that does not change the fact that the board has repeatedly >>> acted against the bylaws, the RSA, the CPM, and the companies act. >>> >>> Simply because one (of many) accusers has acted unethically does not >>> invalidate the voracity of their claims when there is additional clear >>> evidence and testimony from other independent sources. >>> >>> It is a course of time and good conduct that takes the enterprise to >>> prove their good standing and change the general perception. >>> >>> >>> Which I have. I know my opinions are not popular in recent history, but >>> I am continuing to strive for an open, transparent, and accountable AFRINIC >>> administered according to its governing documents and the law in the >>> interests of its community and its members. >>> >>> You can choose to believe that or not. I have a long history of activism >>> in the RIR system. When I started struggling for provider independent IPv6 >>> assignments and allocations, that was not a popular view, either. Now it is >>> policy in all 5 RIRs. >>> >>> Anyways I wish you well. >>> >>> >>> Likewise. I hope you will keep an open mind and judge AFRINIC?s conduct >>> on its merits rather than on your opinion of one (or even a few) of its >>> detractors. There are real problems here that need to be solved. The sooner >>> the community and the members can come to agreement around that instead of >>> using the noise around the conduct of some of the entities pointing these >>> things out, the better for everyone. >>> >>> Solve the real central problems and most of the noise will fall away >>> very quickly. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 11:06 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:26 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>> >>>> You answered yes to my question, whereby I asked clearly rephrased >>>> here: a company offering bribe to people to vote in their favor, will this >>>> company be in a lny good standing or credible to talk about corruption >>>> again? >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes. >>>> >>>> Are you sure? >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes. >>>> >>>> Just because a company has committed some bad acts does not mean that >>>> every thing they say can be discounted or regarded as non-credible. >>>> >>>> If such were the case, nobody would ever buy Microsoft products, for >>>> after all, that company is a convicted felon. >>>> >>>> The California PUC regularly listens to PG&E despite their numerous >>>> felony convictions as a company. >>>> >>>> >>>> Owen, if I ask you today to take $100 to vote for me in the upcoming >>>> election in Camaros to be MP, and after a few days you see me in the news >>>> lecturing about corruption and pointing fingers at people whom i am >>>> labeling as corrupted, that is ok by you and you will accept my word? >>>> >>>> >>>> It is certainly OK by me. >>>> >>>> Whether or not I will accept your word will depend on a great many >>>> factors not in evidence in the current discussion, so I cannot give a >>>> certain answer to that last question, which is pretty much what I said in >>>> the previous response below. >>>> >>>> Owen >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 8:19 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:00 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Good Morning Owen, >>>>> >>>>> There is something i wanted to ask you about, but please give me a >>>>> short answer and straight forward: >>>>> >>>>> In your opinion, an organization that is offering bribe to people in >>>>> order to get their votes, in order to influence the outcome of the >>>>> elections to her favor in Camaros, - will that organization be trustworthy ? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> With the limited information in your question, it?s impossible to form >>>>> a complete opinion, but probably not. >>>>> >>>>> - Will that organization have any right again to lecture about >>>>> corruption while it is promoting the culture of corruption (allegedly as >>>>> per above if it is true)? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes. >>>>> >>>>> - will you trust any word from that organization? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Unknown, insufficient data provided. >>>>> >>>>> - will you have faith and rely on their intensions that they are >>>>> upright? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I rarely have faith or rely on upright intentions of any organization. >>>>> >>>>> I am not pointing any finger at you , rather i am just seeking your >>>>> opinion pls. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My opinion is mostly unformed as insufficient data is given in your >>>>> question. >>>>> >>>>> Owen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:30 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 16, 2022, at 22:26 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not replying to this news paper, nor I have time to read it all. >>>>>> >>>>>> I will also ask you to remember your statement here, ( the resource >>>>>> holder are pushing for a transfer policy) i will also prove you wrong! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I look forward to your attempt to do so. >>>>>> >>>>>> I find it amusing how you have cherry picked what you respond to >>>>>> while ignoring the most salient points in the prior messages to the point >>>>>> where when I limit it to the salient points, you choose to ignore the >>>>>> entire message rather than make a cogent response. >>>>>> >>>>>> Owen >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 4:40 AM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:00 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Owen, >>>>>>> for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red >>>>>>> from your ext >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell >>>>>>> their underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) *you >>>>>>> used the term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever >>>>>>> the term is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an >>>>>>> application with the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, >>>>>>> just like when you apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let >>>>>>> me remind us here of the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another >>>>>>> member. this step was taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own >>>>>>> majority of the IPV4, and to regulate the transfers and continue to monitor >>>>>>> the ipv4, closing the door on black and grey market. let me remind us also >>>>>>> that such cases peculiar to need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever >>>>>>> reason the company might be dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip >>>>>>> resources are assigned "not sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Neither Larus nor Cloud Innovation is selling resources received >>>>>>> from AFRINIC? I stated that many other resource holders wish to do so and >>>>>>> that is one of the reasons that those resource holders are pushing for a >>>>>>> transfer policy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is not inconsistent, it is your inability to differentiate >>>>>>> and/or your failure to look past your efforts to ascribe the most sinister >>>>>>> possible motives to every statement I make. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The RIR doesn?t govern anything. The community governs the RIR and >>>>>>> the RIR is supposed to administer the registry according to the policies >>>>>>> set by the community and according to its bylaws which are controlled by >>>>>>> the membership of the RIR. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps it is this fundamental misunderstanding of who is >>>>>>> specifically supposed to be empowered in the governance of the internet and >>>>>>> as a result the RIRs that is driving some of your other misstatements. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For clarity: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ICANN/PTI in its role performing the IANA operates the central >>>>>>> registry for IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses, and ASNs (among other things). >>>>>>> It does so according to global policies which are set by the RIRs acting in >>>>>>> concert through the Address Supporting Organization, specifically the ASO >>>>>>> AC, which is synonymous with the NRO NC. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Each RIR receives resources from the IANA central registry according >>>>>>> to its justified need and pursuant to those policies mentioned above. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Each RIR distributes those resources to its subscribers (members or >>>>>>> not, depending on the RIR?s specific policies) according to the policies >>>>>>> set in the RIR by its community and according to the bylaws of the RIR set >>>>>>> by its members. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Each RIR is expected to operate within the policies created by its >>>>>>> membership and according to its bylaws. When an RIR fails to do so, it >>>>>>> becomes far more dangerous than is expected. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some RIR subscribers are LIRs (Local Internet Registries). LIRs >>>>>>> provide address space to their customers (usually for a fee) whether in >>>>>>> relationship with connectivity services or as a separate product. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some RIR subscribers are end users and simply use the address space >>>>>>> they receive from the RIR directly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Every RIR except AFRINIC has an inter-RIR transfer policy at this >>>>>>> point. Yes, the recipient needs to show need in the case of an inter-RIR >>>>>>> transfer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are many different reasons organizations want to be able to >>>>>>> engage in inter-RIR transfers and I enumerated several of them. You chose >>>>>>> to focus on a single one because that is the one you hope to be able to >>>>>>> twist into something sinister. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> quote: ( *.... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies >>>>>>> who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note >>>>>>> that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue. >>>>>>> This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a >>>>>>> fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and >>>>>>> has never received serious attention in any other RIR.) *Answer: AfriNIC >>>>>>> got the smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing >>>>>>> a policy "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell >>>>>>> will be suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the >>>>>>> scarcity of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and >>>>>>> retrieval is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you >>>>>>> are referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and >>>>>>> have ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable >>>>>>> to AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do >>>>>>> such, with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future >>>>>>> of Africa. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you are opposed to an inter-RIR transfer policy, then so be it. >>>>>>> That has little or nothing to do with whether or not existing addresses >>>>>>> registered to an organization by AFRINIC are allowed to be used outside of >>>>>>> AFRICA or not. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> However, the policy that does exist now clearly does allow AFRINIC >>>>>>> addresses to be utilized out of region virtually without restriction. A >>>>>>> plain text reading of section 6 of the bylaws makes this quite clear. A >>>>>>> plain text reading of the CPM finds only one place where this is >>>>>>> contradicted and it applies ONLY to addresses issued after the activation >>>>>>> of the Soft Landing policy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you want to conduct legitimate audits, feel free. If you wish to >>>>>>> abide by the legitimate outcome of those audits when they show legitimate >>>>>>> utilization according to the CPM, the RSA, and the bylaws, I?ll fully >>>>>>> support that. However, use out of region does not violate any of the terms >>>>>>> in any of those documents unless the addresses were issued to the >>>>>>> organization after the activation of the soft landing policy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> AFRINIC is free to enforce any policy which has been adopted by the >>>>>>> community and ratified by the board. There is no policy restricting the >>>>>>> location of utilization of addresses which meets that test at this time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the >>>>>>> geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation >>>>>>> from you.)* I did not make any statement about winning on >>>>>>> geographical grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not >>>>>>> say? who is misinforming now? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You stated: "AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow >>>>>>> me here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in >>>>>>> Africa then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals >>>>>>> from the Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then >>>>>>> AfriNic shouod have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an >>>>>>> abuse of the Judicial System. ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your claim is that AFRINIC should have already lost all cases on >>>>>>> geographic basis if my statement was true. I pointed out that AFRINIC has >>>>>>> neither lost nor won because the cases that relate to this matter have not >>>>>>> yet concluded. I did not put words in your mouth, I responded to what you >>>>>>> actually said. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir >>>>>>> if you really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft >>>>>>> landing was easy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ARIN never passed a soft landing policy and it worked out quite well >>>>>>> there, IMHO. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> However, the only mention I have made regarding soft landing in any >>>>>>> of these statements is to mention that it is the only policy with >>>>>>> geographical restrictions on utilization codified in the policy. I?ve also >>>>>>> pointed out that said policy does not apply to any addresses issued to >>>>>>> Cloud Innovation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or >>>>>>> client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the >>>>>>> list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.)* >>>>>>> did i say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining >>>>>>> and dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is >>>>>>> revolving because of you and around you? I said : *Anyone *can >>>>>>> convince *himself with any lie* and convince the minions involved >>>>>>> in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread >>>>>>> lie), did you see you or me or owen or amin in this statement? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You made the following direct statement in a message sent directly >>>>>>> to me as well as an open list: >>>>>>> "Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions >>>>>>> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to >>>>>>> spread lie)? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In context, it is quite clear you were intending to level this as a >>>>>>> direct accusation towards me. Your use of weasel words and attempted >>>>>>> evasions notwithstanding, at least I have the courage to own what I say and >>>>>>> take responsibility for it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or >>>>>>> client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the >>>>>>> list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) *Again: >>>>>>> Did I say you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I >>>>>>> mention you? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You said: "When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he >>>>>>> should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and >>>>>>> under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes.? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You said this in an email directed to me and copied to an open list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So in effect, yes, you did claim I published a video, you did point >>>>>>> a finger presumably at me, and by having my name as the target of your >>>>>>> email, yes, you did mention me for all practical purposes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on >>>>>>> their website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and >>>>>>> through a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the >>>>>>> embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African >>>>>>> Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan >>>>>>> or the spokesperson of PTA? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In terms of the subsequent emails in this discussion, you put my >>>>>>> name in the To: field of your email. If you didn?t intend to involve me, >>>>>>> why did you do so? >>>>>>> In terms of the original message, you made a public comment about >>>>>>> the letter being sent on behalf of a ?fraudulent and misleading >>>>>>> organization?, so I felt obliged to point out your own misleading >>>>>>> information that you have attempted to promulgate in this same forum and >>>>>>> with your own misguided and misleading video. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I will note, that you did not address the following component of my >>>>>>> previous message: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to >>>>>>> your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i >>>>>>> want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions >>>>>>> as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To which I responded: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error >>>>>>> and be specific. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You carefully avoided answering this? Is it perhaps because you have >>>>>>> no answer here? You could not find an actual misquote? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I find three messages into this conversation that this statement: "I >>>>>>> have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure >>>>>>> is justifying a wrong cause.? >>>>>>> is truly telling as apparently I am not such a second party and >>>>>>> therefore perhaps you are admitting by your actions that I do not actually >>>>>>> have a wrong cause. If so, this is progress. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Owen >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Owen, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Don?t rush, all in good time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no >>>>>>>> single piece of evidence! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to >>>>>>>> refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then >>>>>>>> why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the >>>>>>>> Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod >>>>>>>> have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the >>>>>>>> Judicial System. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their >>>>>>>>> underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market.* Other >>>>>>>>> companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once >>>>>>>>> the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some >>>>>>>>> companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple >>>>>>>>> RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons >>>>>>>>> that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction >>>>>>>>> on usage. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a >>>>>>>>> number of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC >>>>>>>>> issued space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it >>>>>>>>> to be an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to >>>>>>>>> Africa is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of >>>>>>>>> AFRINIC and has never received serious attention in any other RIR. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the >>>>>>>> geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation >>>>>>>> from you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will >>>>>>>> lose, as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support >>>>>>>> such aa restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the >>>>>>>> activation of the soft landing policy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend >>>>>>>> their rights under the contract they signed against a board that is >>>>>>>> misconstruing the bylaws and acting outside of its authority. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few >>>>>>>> procedural victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a >>>>>>>> series of injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal >>>>>>>> actions it has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. >>>>>>>> Most of the cases are still undecided. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions >>>>>>>> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to >>>>>>>> spread lie) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. >>>>>>>> This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and >>>>>>>> is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should >>>>>>>> provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the >>>>>>>> table corrupting the members to buy Votes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I?ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to >>>>>>>> someone else here? Perhaps yourself? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to >>>>>>>> your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i >>>>>>>> want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions >>>>>>>> as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error >>>>>>>> and be specific. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so >>>>>>>> which company you are talking about?! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your >>>>>>>> statements. I thought that was clear from the context. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Owen >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear members, >>>>>>>>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known >>>>>>>>> sources who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC >>>>>>>>> and AfriNIC. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the >>>>>>>>> "Government of Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is >>>>>>>>> the Pakistan tELECOM authority and not the government itself. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan >>>>>>>>> telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter? >>>>>>>>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at >>>>>>>>> least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY? >>>>>>>>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our >>>>>>>>> sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations >>>>>>>>> through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support >>>>>>>>> of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how >>>>>>>>> Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the >>>>>>>>> last time I checked, is not an African country. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued >>>>>>>>> addresses are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the >>>>>>>>> bylaws, RSA, or CPM says so? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications >>>>>>>>> and corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the >>>>>>>>> one engaged in a campaign of disinformation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Owen >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Tue Jun 21 08:12:10 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2022 11:12:10 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: <598B27E6-9C6F-4A00-8FB9-F53E84427E8C@delong.com> References: <0C06A259-4164-4A9C-9D80-414A435BC897@delong.com> <40777218-6529-4B2F-83AD-F6AD93206285@delong.com> <598B27E6-9C6F-4A00-8FB9-F53E84427E8C@delong.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:23 AM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > > > On Jun 20, 2022, at 00:04 , Amin Dayekh wrote: > > > wen, the discussion is not about the board, the emails are very clear, and > read well. A bribe is a criminal offense, and so is offering a bribe, > multiple offenses can amount to conspiracy. My disagreements with the board > and AfriNIC were addressed through correct channels, ethically, > objectively, and professionally. If we don't see changes, there are ways we > can follow as members from within AfriNIC and not through the courts. > > > I?m not aware of any bribery or criminal conduct. > > There is a very fine legal line between making an investment in a company > in exchange for certain rights or privileges and a bribe. > Give us a break Owen, you really must think, folks in this part of the world are clueless, don't you? At least you have indicated finally that you have a clue as to what Amin has been driving at, this far. Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jun 21 17:07:57 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2022 10:07:57 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Interim order of June 14th 2022 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: By repeatedly violating the law, the bylaws, the COM, and the RSAs they have signed with various members, the board is acting against the interests of the membership and the community. This is a statement of fact, not one of representation. Owen > On Jun 20, 2022, at 10:11, Ish Sookun wrote: > > ?Hi Owen, > >> On 20 Jun 2022, at 10:20, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: >> >> As far as I am concerned, the AFRINIC board and management are the adversaries and they are so _BECAUSE_ they are acting contrary to the bylaws and against the interests of the membership and community. >> > > By saying that ?they are acting [...] against the interests of the membership and community, are you speaking for the majority of members and the community? > You can perhaps speak for one organisation or maybe a few, but I don?t think your statement represents the sentiment of the community. > > Regards, > > Ish Sookun -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/octet-stream Size: 833 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tech at cloudinnovation.org Wed Jun 22 13:18:14 2022 From: tech at cloudinnovation.org (tech) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 17:18:14 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Formal mediation Message-ID: <1818b903cb1.db9f57ad1118859.3464488880894407180@cloudinnovation.org> Following public speculation, Cloud Innovation can confirm that it has requested formal mediation with AFRINIC via?the court. ? We are yet to hear back formally from AFINIC but we are hopeful that they will accept our request. ? The issues raised by Cloud Innovation, and other members of AFRINIC, are of global importance and sitting down to discuss the issues can only benefit the world?s internet users. ? We commit to confirm if AFRINIC agree to participate in our mediation but the actual mediation discussions would remain confidential. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eddy at afrinic.net Wed Jun 22 13:45:23 2022 From: eddy at afrinic.net (Eddy Kayihura) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:45:23 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Formal mediation In-Reply-To: <1818b903cb1.db9f57ad1118859.3464488880894407180@cloudinnovation.org> References: <1818b903cb1.db9f57ad1118859.3464488880894407180@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: <1A8B9343-6F62-478C-A260-5B37EFDCA6CC@afrinic.net> The letters regarding mediation of 2 specific cases were received today. We will consider and provide an update in due time. Thanks and Regards, Eddy > On 22 Jun 2022, at 09:19, tech wrote: > > ? > Following public speculation, Cloud Innovation can confirm that it has requested formal mediation with AFRINIC via the court. > > We are yet to hear back formally from AFINIC but we are hopeful that they will accept our request. > > The issues raised by Cloud Innovation, and other members of AFRINIC, are of global importance and sitting down to discuss the issues can only benefit the world?s internet users. > > We commit to confirm if AFRINIC agree to participate in our mediation but the actual mediation discussions would remain confidential. > > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Wed Jun 22 13:46:09 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 14:46:09 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Formal mediation In-Reply-To: <1818b903cb1.db9f57ad1118859.3464488880894407180@cloudinnovation.org> References: <1818b903cb1.db9f57ad1118859.3464488880894407180@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: Dear AFRINIC, As a resource member in good standing, I would like to advise AFRINIC should be very cautious in dealing with the resource member who filed countless litigations against all of us. The said member obtained an ex-parte to freeze AFRINIC bank accounts. Was this to force AFRINIC to the table. They repeatedly secured multiple court injunctions to paralyze AFRINIC to its knees so that they can force AFRINIC to the mediation table. They filed injunctions to stop Members from exercising our rights to vote in our own elections and led to AFRINIC not having a full board. This was to bring AFRINIC to its knees so that they can force AFRINIC to mediation. AFRINIC, its resource members, and AFRICAN governments and civil society should all ensure that AFRINIC is not tricked by the same group. On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 2:20 PM tech wrote: > Following public speculation, Cloud Innovation can confirm that it has > requested formal mediation with AFRINIC via the court. > > > > We are yet to hear back formally from AFINIC but we are hopeful that they > will accept our request. > > > > The issues raised by Cloud Innovation, and other members of AFRINIC, are > of global importance and sitting down to discuss the issues can only > benefit the world?s internet users. > > > > We commit to confirm if AFRINIC agree to participate in our mediation but > the actual mediation discussions would remain confidential. > > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Wed Jun 22 14:50:56 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 15:50:56 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Formal mediation In-Reply-To: References: <1818b903cb1.db9f57ad1118859.3464488880894407180@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: the questions that remain valid Ben, 1- Is the reason justified to get the IP resources still applicable? 2- are the ip resources still in use for that justified reason? herewith what PTA directed its members (especially about afrinic) if PTA as the telecom authority is prohibiting the use of IP resources from Afrinic, Rather especially from afrinic, how a broker is going beyond that directive? [image: PTA-Email (1).jpeg] On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 3:22 PM Ben Roberts wrote: > Hi, > It is possible to postulate that AFRINIC threw the first punch buy > revoking membership and resource holdings of members who relied upon those > resources for their business. > > I'm sure all cases should be judged or mediated based on the applicable > law however. Who hit first or hit back hardest probably isn't the pertinent > issue. > > Get Outlook for Android > ------------------------------ > *From:* Amin Dayekh > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 22, 2022 4:46:09 PM > *To:* tech > *Cc:* community-discuss ; members-discuss < > members-discuss at afrinic.net> > *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Formal mediation > > Dear AFRINIC, > > As a resource member in good standing, I would like to advise AFRINIC > should be very cautious in dealing with the resource member who filed > countless litigations against all of us. > > The said member obtained an ex-parte to freeze AFRINIC bank accounts. Was > this to force AFRINIC to the table. > > They repeatedly secured multiple court injunctions to paralyze AFRINIC to > its knees so that they can force AFRINIC to the mediation table. > > They filed injunctions to stop Members from exercising our rights to vote > in our own elections and led to AFRINIC not having a full board. This was > to bring AFRINIC to its knees so that they can force AFRINIC to mediation. > > AFRINIC, its resource members, and AFRICAN governments and civil society > should all ensure that AFRINIC is not tricked by the same group. > > On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 2:20 PM tech wrote: > > Following public speculation, Cloud Innovation can confirm that it has > requested formal mediation with AFRINIC via the court. > > > > We are yet to hear back formally from AFINIC but we are hopeful that they > will accept our request. > > > > The issues raised by Cloud Innovation, and other members of AFRINIC, are > of global importance and sitting down to discuss the issues can only > benefit the world?s internet users. > > > > We commit to confirm if AFRINIC agree to participate in our mediation but > the actual mediation discussions would remain confidential. > > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PTA-Email (1).jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 82211 bytes Desc: not available URL: From admin at megamore.ng Wed Jun 22 15:01:58 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 16:01:58 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA In-Reply-To: References: <0C06A259-4164-4A9C-9D80-414A435BC897@delong.com> <40777218-6529-4B2F-83AD-F6AD93206285@delong.com> <598B27E6-9C6F-4A00-8FB9-F53E84427E8C@delong.com> Message-ID: Dear Members, According to information Gathered, PTA (Pakistan Telecom Authority) had a directive to all members to refrain from using "if any is using" Ip resources from any continent, especially AFRINIC. Following the letters sent we gathered this info. More Details will be shared in due course. The corrupt are accusing the Righteous as Corrupted! On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 9:12 AM Noah wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:23 AM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > >> >> >> On Jun 20, 2022, at 00:04 , Amin Dayekh wrote: >> >> >> wen, the discussion is not about the board, the emails are very clear, >> and read well. A bribe is a criminal offense, and so is offering a bribe, >> multiple offenses can amount to conspiracy. My disagreements with the board >> and AfriNIC were addressed through correct channels, ethically, >> objectively, and professionally. If we don't see changes, there are ways we >> can follow as members from within AfriNIC and not through the courts. >> >> >> I?m not aware of any bribery or criminal conduct. >> >> There is a very fine legal line between making an investment in a company >> in exchange for certain rights or privileges and a bribe. >> > > Give us a break Owen, you really must think, folks in this part of the > world are clueless, don't you? > > At least you have indicated finally that you have a clue as to what Amin > has been driving at, this far. > > Noah > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PTA-Email (1).jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 82211 bytes Desc: not available URL: From admin at megamore.ng Wed Jun 22 15:09:43 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 16:09:43 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Formal mediation In-Reply-To: References: <1818b903cb1.db9f57ad1118859.3464488880894407180@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: Understood, But AfriNIC will not add a member from Pakistan! PTA is the regulator of Telecom in Pakistan, they can dictate any procedure they want. Hypothetically, if an organization registers with Afrinic from Pakistan, and IF Afrinic agrees to give them membership and ip resources "only if", the paid member is breaking the law and the regulations in Pakistan and they can revoke his license!. The question is not about the license operators but the directives they sent to their operators and the Alleged Letter NRS indicated in their video! On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 4:05 PM Ben Roberts wrote: > Amin, > PTAs stance on which RIR they allow licenced operators in Pakistan to > source IPs is entirely the business of Pakistan, PTA, and licenced > operators in Pakistan. They have no regulatory powers over Africa, and > unless they are a paid up member of Afrinic, then they have no say or > influence in this matter at hand. > > Kind regards. > > Ben > > Get Outlook for Android > ------------------------------ > *From:* Amin Dayekh > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 22, 2022 5:50:56 PM > *To:* Ben Roberts > *Cc:* tech ; community-discuss < > community-discuss at afrinic.net>; members-discuss < > members-discuss at afrinic.net> > *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Formal mediation > > the questions that remain valid Ben, > > 1- Is the reason justified to get the IP resources still applicable? > 2- are the ip resources still in use for that justified reason? > > herewith what PTA directed its members (especially about afrinic) > > if PTA as the telecom authority is prohibiting the use of IP resources > from Afrinic, Rather especially from afrinic, how a broker is going beyond > that directive? > [image: PTA-Email (1).jpeg] > > On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 3:22 PM Ben Roberts > wrote: > > Hi, > It is possible to postulate that AFRINIC threw the first punch buy > revoking membership and resource holdings of members who relied upon those > resources for their business. > > I'm sure all cases should be judged or mediated based on the applicable > law however. Who hit first or hit back hardest probably isn't the pertinent > issue. > > Get Outlook for Android > ------------------------------ > *From:* Amin Dayekh > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 22, 2022 4:46:09 PM > *To:* tech > *Cc:* community-discuss ; members-discuss < > members-discuss at afrinic.net> > *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Formal mediation > > Dear AFRINIC, > > As a resource member in good standing, I would like to advise AFRINIC > should be very cautious in dealing with the resource member who filed > countless litigations against all of us. > > The said member obtained an ex-parte to freeze AFRINIC bank accounts. Was > this to force AFRINIC to the table. > > They repeatedly secured multiple court injunctions to paralyze AFRINIC to > its knees so that they can force AFRINIC to the mediation table. > > They filed injunctions to stop Members from exercising our rights to vote > in our own elections and led to AFRINIC not having a full board. This was > to bring AFRINIC to its knees so that they can force AFRINIC to mediation. > > AFRINIC, its resource members, and AFRICAN governments and civil society > should all ensure that AFRINIC is not tricked by the same group. > > On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 2:20 PM tech wrote: > > Following public speculation, Cloud Innovation can confirm that it has > requested formal mediation with AFRINIC via the court. > > > > We are yet to hear back formally from AFINIC but we are hopeful that they > will accept our request. > > > > The issues raised by Cloud Innovation, and other members of AFRINIC, are > of global importance and sitting down to discuss the issues can only > benefit the world?s internet users. > > > > We commit to confirm if AFRINIC agree to participate in our mediation but > the actual mediation discussions would remain confidential. > > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PTA-Email (1).jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 82211 bytes Desc: not available URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Wed Jun 22 15:29:39 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 18:29:39 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Formal mediation In-Reply-To: References: <1818b903cb1.db9f57ad1118859.3464488880894407180@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2022, 17:28 Ben Roberts via Members-Discuss, < members-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > resource holdings of members who relied upon those resources for their > business. > What business Ben? Cheers, Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Wed Jun 22 16:09:59 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 17:09:59 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Formal mediation In-Reply-To: References: <1818b903cb1.db9f57ad1118859.3464488880894407180@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: I want to add something here The email reads ?following public speculations? We did not hear of any, except a post here (gathered from reliable resource) Even when they as seeking mediation they tend to mislead the public On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 4:32 PM Noah wrote: > > > On Wed, 22 Jun 2022, 17:28 Ben Roberts via Members-Discuss, < > members-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > >> resource holdings of members who relied upon those resources for their >> business. >> > > What business Ben? > > Cheers, > Noah > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Wed Jun 22 16:31:41 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 19:31:41 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Formal mediation In-Reply-To: References: <1818b903cb1.db9f57ad1118859.3464488880894407180@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2022, 19:10 Amin Dayekh, wrote: > I want to add something here > > The email reads ?following public speculations? > There was none save for some unicast email from a resource member. > We did not hear of any, except a post here (gathered from reliable > resource) > Its was the same resource member who posted speculating but remember the resource member claimed to get services from Larus, so its safe to assume their sources now that Tech from Cloud Innovation initiated this thread. > Even when they as seeking mediation they tend to mislead the public > To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln ...."You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time." Basically the public is not as ignorant as some folk will assume it is. Cheers Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Wed Jun 22 17:06:05 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 18:06:05 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Formal mediation In-Reply-To: References: <1818b903cb1.db9f57ad1118859.3464488880894407180@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: Thank you for the clarification. On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 5:31 PM Noah wrote: > > > On Wed, 22 Jun 2022, 19:10 Amin Dayekh, wrote: > >> I want to add something here >> >> The email reads ?following public speculations? >> > > There was none save for some unicast email from a resource member. > > >> We did not hear of any, except a post here (gathered from reliable >> resource) >> > > Its was the same resource member who posted speculating but remember the > resource member claimed to get services from Larus, so its safe to assume > their sources now that Tech from Cloud Innovation initiated this thread. > > >> Even when they as seeking mediation they tend to mislead the public >> > > To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln ...."You can fool some of the people all of > the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all > of the people all of the time." > > Basically the public is not as ignorant as some folk will assume it is. > > Cheers > Noah > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Thu Jun 23 08:43:27 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 09:43:27 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] NRA/NRS petitions on behalf of Members Message-ID: *Dear Community,* *Following the freeze of Afrinic's bank account, and according to the video published here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32xCurWfJo4&t=11s I was contacted (Again but this time on behalf of NRA/NRS Larus and cloud innovation, we may explain the first encounter later) by Ms. Meriem Dayedaye, from Morocco with phone number +212607925078 *m.dayedaye at nrs.help dym5328 at gmail.com *She and other Chinese Colleagues called me on phone first, then we communicated on WhatsApp, discussing a Lot about the Afrinic Freeze of Account and how that will affect us as members. They thought that they will fool us and provided the solution to us: Join NRA, SIGN a Letter to AfriNIC Board, and Sign a letter to NRO, but first, you must be a member of NRA/NRS and sign NDA.* *Attached are the documents and below is the email, I cannot find the right words for the pressure they put to get the documents signed. As it is evident in the letters and communication, they are presenting themselves the angels and saviors.* [image: image.png] *During this time I communicated with AfriNIC to know what is the story.* *communication continued and on July 30, 2021, need to check the emails well they communicated again with an updated letter titled Anti-trust action against AFRINIC in Mauritius - Terms of Engagement on APPLEBY Letter Headed paper, ( I CANNOT VERIFY IF APPLEBY IS AWARE of THIS, BUT AS A LAW FIRM THEY SHOULD KNOW WELL THAT THIS LETTER BEING SENT BY ANOTHER PARTY AS IT IS A REGULATORY ISSUE). Attached is the engagement letter. In this letter, Cloud Innovation will pay the legal expenses. In return we get a free /24 prefix and I quote based on q&a: worth 1500$, donated by one of their clients CI (speculation-to prove that the ip resources are being used in africa), we can use it as long as the member doesn't need it for the meantime etc... To do the right thing there should be no award nor reward nor compensation! if this is not a bribe and conspiracy to wind down afrinic and defame its members and the board, then, what is this exactly?* [image: image.png] t*he ipv4 free lease captured in an email by Lamiaa in October and it was the discussion since the beginning with Meriem and Vivien* [image: image.png] *The campaign, the email, and discussions built on a single fact that the bank account is frozen, but they did not say by who nor that they are part of this, but they were fully ignorant to share the APPLEBY document. in their attempts, I have seen intimidation on the fate of the IP resources and urging me to sign as if AfriNIC is closing now and after a few hours the IP resources I have will stop. Those who would like the screenshots of the chat are free to request them.* *It is worth Mentioning that One Melvin Cheng (+85295755408 communicated from China, MS. Meriem introduced me to Her Boss (Ms Vivien) and Miss Vivien communicated with me on Zoom and Lu Heng was with on zoom - Just to connect the dots briefly.* *the bribe for the vote came later and will be sent via another email.* *I sent a letter to NCC in August 2021 with all pieces of evidence I have then.* *The first encounter with Meriem was in June 2021 for the elections, she was on the Campaign team of one Nominee.* *Happy fishing* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 62890 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 105431 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Non-Disclosure Agreement FINAL.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 99021 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tech at cloudinnovation.org Thu Jun 23 17:23:50 2022 From: tech at cloudinnovation.org (tech) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 21:23:50 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Fwd: NRA/NRS petitions on behalf of Members In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18191977235.1011e09f91506180.1612913540012952031@cloudinnovation.org> It is of great concern that we have taken note of highly defamatory allegations by Amin Dayekh and on behalf of MegaMore Broadband. We wish to inform the community at large that those allegations are denied in the strongest possible terms. Members should note that this matter is subject to judicial proceedings whereby we are seeking for justice against said entities. Any repetition by the entities or repetition of the claims by anyone else will be subject to further judicial proceedings. We also regret the timing of those defamations when we are concentrating all our efforts and resources to find a mediated solution to the on going litigations. We are still awaiting a formal response from AFRINIC for our request for mediation. ---- Amin Dayekh ? ???, 23 ?? 2022 15:06:20 +0400 ???--- Hi Noah Someone will send you an email now asking what do you mean by "other channels" and why would there be other channels and who are the other channels lol On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 11:47 AM Noah wrote: Hi?Badru/Amin, More importantly, every resource member who was disrespected by these actors ought to speak out and not keep silent.? Most of you have reached out and talked to some of us and how you detest all manipulative attempts by these very actors. There are more damning things out there that have been happening and the management at AFRINIC has been made aware through other channels. Cheers, ./noah neo - network engineering and operations On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 1:26 PM Badru Ntege wrote: Its sad and painful that this is happening.? We as a community need to finally understand that AfriNIC is under serious threat and come together as one to correct whatever opened this vulnerability. ? Lets forget our differences for the sake of AfriNIC.? Differences are healthy when operating normally as they help us all look at different view points and embrace the diversity we ?have as a region. ? For now I ask we come together and protect our resources from the looters in our midst. ? Regards ? ? ? ? ? ? From: Amin Dayekh Date: Thursday, 23 June 2022 at 11:51 To: AfriNIC Discuss Subject: [members-discuss] Fwd: NRA/NRS petitions on behalf of Members ? Dear Community, ? Following the freeze of Afrinic's bank account, and according to the video published here?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32xCurWfJo4&t=11s I was contacted (Again but this time on behalf of NRA/NRS Larus and cloud innovation, we may explain the first encounter later) by Ms. Meriem Dayedaye, from Morocco with phone number?+212607925078?mailto:m.dayedaye at nrs.help?mailto:dym5328 at gmail.com? ? She and other Chinese Colleagues called me on phone first, then we communicated on WhatsApp, discussing a Lot about the?Afrinic Freeze of Account and how that will affect us as members. They thought that they will fool us and provided the?solution to us: Join NRA, SIGN a Letter to AfriNIC Board, and Sign a letter to NRO, but first, you must be a member of NRA/NRS?and sign NDA. ? Attached are the documents and below is the email, I cannot find the right words for the pressure they put to get the documents signed. As it is evident in the letters and communication, they are presenting themselves the angels and saviors. ? ? During this time I communicated with AfriNIC to know what is the story. ? communication continued and on July 30, 2021, need to check the emails well they communicated again with an updated letter titled?Anti-trust action against AFRINIC in Mauritius - Terms of Engagement on APPLEBY Letter Headed paper, ( I CANNOT VERIFY IF APPLEBY IS AWARE of THIS, BUT AS A LAW FIRM THEY SHOULD KNOW WELL THAT THIS LETTER BEING SENT BY ANOTHER PARTY AS IT IS A REGULATORY ISSUE). Attached is the engagement?letter. In this letter, Cloud Innovation will pay the legal expenses. In return we get a free /24 prefix and I quote based on q&a: worth 1500$, donated by one of their clients CI (speculation-to prove that the ip resources are being used in africa), we can use it as long as the member doesn't need it for the meantime etc... To do the right thing there should be no award nor reward nor compensation! if this is not a bribe and conspiracy to wind down afrinic and defame its members and the board, then, what is this exactly? ? ? the ipv4 free lease captured in an email by Lamiaa in October and it was the discussion since the beginning with Meriem and Vivien ? ? ? ? The campaign, the email, and discussions built on a single fact that the bank account is frozen, but they did not say by who nor that they are part of this, but they were fully ignorant to share the?APPLEBY document. in their attempts, I have seen intimidation on the fate of the IP resources and urging me to sign as if AfriNIC is closing now and after a few hours the IP resources I have will stop. Those who would like the screenshots?of the chat are free to request them. ? It is worth Mentioning that One Melvin Cheng (+85295755408 communicated from China, MS. Meriem introduced me to Her Boss (Ms Vivien) and Miss Vivien communicated with me on Zoom and Lu Heng was?with on zoom - Just to connect the dots briefly. ? the bribe for the vote came later and will be sent via another email. I sent a letter to NCC in August 2021 with all pieces of evidence?I have then. ? The first encounter with Meriem was in June 2021 for the elections, she was on the Campaign team of one Nominee. ? Happy fishing ?? _______________________________________________ Members-Discuss mailing list mailto:Members-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss _______________________________________________ Members-Discuss mailing list mailto:Members-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: 4.png Type: image/png Size: 74316 bytes Desc: not available URL: From admin at megamore.ng Thu Jun 23 17:42:00 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 18:42:00 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Fwd: NRA/NRS petitions on behalf of Members In-Reply-To: <18191977235.1011e09f91506180.1612913540012952031@cloudinnovation.org> References: <18191977235.1011e09f91506180.1612913540012952031@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: What part of my email to the community was accusation and which part was defamation? Before I say anything else On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:27 PM tech wrote: > It is of great concern that we have taken note of highly defamatory > allegations by Amin Dayekh and on behalf of MegaMore Broadband. We wish to > inform the community at large that those allegations are denied in the > strongest possible terms. > > Members should note that this matter is subject to judicial proceedings > whereby we are seeking for justice against said entities. Any repetition by > the entities or repetition of the claims by anyone else will be subject to > further judicial proceedings. > > We also regret the timing of those defamations when we are concentrating > all our efforts and resources to find a mediated solution to the on going > litigations. We are still awaiting a formal response from AFRINIC for our > request for mediation. > > > > > > ---- *Amin Dayekh >* ? ???, 23 ?? > 2022 15:06:20 +0400 ???--- > > Hi Noah > > Someone will send you an email now asking what do you mean by "other > channels" and why would there be other channels and who are the other > channels lol > > On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 11:47 AM Noah wrote: > > Hi Badru/Amin, > > More importantly, every resource member who was disrespected by these > actors ought to speak out and not keep silent. > > Most of you have reached out and talked to some of us and how you detest > all manipulative attempts by these very actors. > > There are more damning things out there that have been happening and the > management at AFRINIC has been made aware through other channels. > > Cheers, > *./noah* > neo - network engineering and operations > > > On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 1:26 PM Badru Ntege > wrote: > > Its sad and painful that this is happening. We as a community need to > finally understand that AfriNIC is under serious threat and come together > as one to correct whatever opened this vulnerability. > > > > Lets forget our differences for the sake of AfriNIC. Differences are > healthy when operating normally as they help us all look at different view > points and embrace the diversity we have as a region. > > > > For now I ask we come together and protect our resources from the looters > in our midst. > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > [image: signature_1553951759] > > > > *From: *Amin Dayekh > *Date: *Thursday, 23 June 2022 at 11:51 > *To: *AfriNIC Discuss > *Subject: *[members-discuss] Fwd: NRA/NRS petitions on behalf of Members > > > > *Dear Community,* > > > > *Following the freeze of Afrinic's bank account, and according to the > video published here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32xCurWfJo4&t=11s > I was contacted (Again > but this time on behalf of NRA/NRS Larus and cloud innovation, we may > explain the first encounter later) by Ms. Meriem Dayedaye, from Morocco > with phone number +212607925078 *m.dayedaye at nrs.help dym5328 at gmail.com > > > > *She and other Chinese Colleagues called me on phone first, then we > communicated on WhatsApp, discussing a Lot about the Afrinic Freeze of > Account and how that will affect us as members. They thought that they will > fool us and provided the solution to us: Join NRA, SIGN a Letter to AfriNIC > Board, and Sign a letter to NRO, but first, you must be a member of > NRA/NRS and sign NDA.* > > > > *Attached are the documents and below is the email, I cannot find the > right words for the pressure they put to get the documents signed. As it is > evident in the letters and communication, they are presenting themselves > the angels and saviors.* > > > > > > > *During this time I communicated with AfriNIC to know what is the story.* > > > > *communication continued and on July 30, 2021, need to check the emails > well they communicated again with an updated letter titled Anti-trust > action against AFRINIC in Mauritius - Terms of Engagement on APPLEBY Letter > Headed paper, ( I CANNOT VERIFY IF APPLEBY IS AWARE of THIS, BUT AS A LAW > FIRM THEY SHOULD KNOW WELL THAT THIS LETTER BEING SENT BY ANOTHER PARTY AS > IT IS A REGULATORY ISSUE). Attached is the engagement letter. In this > letter, Cloud Innovation will pay the legal expenses. In return we get a > free /24 prefix and I quote based on q&a: worth 1500$, donated by one of > their clients CI (speculation-to prove that the ip resources are being used > in africa), we can use it as long as the member doesn't need it for the > meantime etc... To do the right thing there should be no award nor reward > nor compensation! if this is not a bribe and conspiracy to wind down > afrinic and defame its members and the board, then, what is this exactly?* > > > > > > > t*he ipv4 free lease captured in an email by Lamiaa in October and it was > the discussion since the beginning with Meriem and Vivien* > > > > > > > > > > > *The campaign, the email, and discussions built on a single fact that the > bank account is frozen, but they did not say by who nor that they are part > of this, but they were fully ignorant to share the APPLEBY document. in > their attempts, I have seen intimidation on the fate of the IP resources > and urging me to sign as if AfriNIC is closing now and after a few hours > the IP resources I have will stop. Those who would like the screenshots of > the chat are free to request them.* > > > > *It is worth Mentioning that One Melvin Cheng (+85295755408 communicated > from China, MS. Meriem introduced me to Her Boss (Ms Vivien) and Miss > Vivien communicated with me on Zoom and Lu Heng was with on zoom - Just to > connect the dots briefly.* > > > > *the bribe for the vote came later and will be sent via another email.* > > *I sent a letter to NCC in August 2021 with all pieces of evidence I have > then.* > > > > *The first encounter with Meriem was in June 2021 for the elections, she > was on the Campaign team of one Nominee.* > > > > *Happy fishing* > > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: 3.png Type: image/png Size: 105432 bytes Desc: not available URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Thu Jun 23 18:12:42 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 21:12:42 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Fwd: NRA/NRS petitions on behalf of Members In-Reply-To: <18191977235.1011e09f91506180.1612913540012952031@cloudinnovation.org> References: <18191977235.1011e09f91506180.1612913540012952031@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: Actually it takes a great deal of humility, courage, integrity and ethics to accept responsibility. In most cases, people generally tend to deny their own actions when corned. Defamation claims often stand in absense of truth and facts. The information that has been posted in ref to the said entities is collaborative and it take courage to actually share such information. This forum is for public discourse and not intimidation. Noah On Thu, 23 Jun 2022, 20:34 tech, wrote: > It is of great concern that we have taken note of highly defamatory > allegations by Amin Dayekh and on behalf of MegaMore Broadband. We wish to > inform the community at large that those allegations are denied in the > strongest possible terms. > > Members should note that this matter is subject to judicial proceedings > whereby we are seeking for justice against said entities. Any repetition by > the entities or repetition of the claims by anyone else will be subject to > further judicial proceedings. > > We also regret the timing of those defamations when we are concentrating > all our efforts and resources to find a mediated solution to the on going > litigations. We are still awaiting a formal response from AFRINIC for our > request for mediation. > > > > > > ---- *Amin Dayekh >* ? ???, 23 ?? > 2022 15:06:20 +0400 ???--- > > Hi Noah > > Someone will send you an email now asking what do you mean by "other > channels" and why would there be other channels and who are the other > channels lol > > On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 11:47 AM Noah wrote: > > Hi Badru/Amin, > > More importantly, every resource member who was disrespected by these > actors ought to speak out and not keep silent. > > Most of you have reached out and talked to some of us and how you detest > all manipulative attempts by these very actors. > > There are more damning things out there that have been happening and the > management at AFRINIC has been made aware through other channels. > > Cheers, > *./noah* > neo - network engineering and operations > > > On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 1:26 PM Badru Ntege > wrote: > > Its sad and painful that this is happening. We as a community need to > finally understand that AfriNIC is under serious threat and come together > as one to correct whatever opened this vulnerability. > > > > Lets forget our differences for the sake of AfriNIC. Differences are > healthy when operating normally as they help us all look at different view > points and embrace the diversity we have as a region. > > > > For now I ask we come together and protect our resources from the looters > in our midst. > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > [image: signature_1553951759] > > > > *From: *Amin Dayekh > *Date: *Thursday, 23 June 2022 at 11:51 > *To: *AfriNIC Discuss > *Subject: *[members-discuss] Fwd: NRA/NRS petitions on behalf of Members > > > > *Dear Community,* > > > > *Following the freeze of Afrinic's bank account, and according to the > video published here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32xCurWfJo4&t=11s > I was contacted (Again > but this time on behalf of NRA/NRS Larus and cloud innovation, we may > explain the first encounter later) by Ms. Meriem Dayedaye, from Morocco > with phone number +212607925078 *m.dayedaye at nrs.help dym5328 at gmail.com > > > > *She and other Chinese Colleagues called me on phone first, then we > communicated on WhatsApp, discussing a Lot about the Afrinic Freeze of > Account and how that will affect us as members. They thought that they will > fool us and provided the solution to us: Join NRA, SIGN a Letter to AfriNIC > Board, and Sign a letter to NRO, but first, you must be a member of > NRA/NRS and sign NDA.* > > > > *Attached are the documents and below is the email, I cannot find the > right words for the pressure they put to get the documents signed. As it is > evident in the letters and communication, they are presenting themselves > the angels and saviors.* > > > > > > > *During this time I communicated with AfriNIC to know what is the story.* > > > > *communication continued and on July 30, 2021, need to check the emails > well they communicated again with an updated letter titled Anti-trust > action against AFRINIC in Mauritius - Terms of Engagement on APPLEBY Letter > Headed paper, ( I CANNOT VERIFY IF APPLEBY IS AWARE of THIS, BUT AS A LAW > FIRM THEY SHOULD KNOW WELL THAT THIS LETTER BEING SENT BY ANOTHER PARTY AS > IT IS A REGULATORY ISSUE). Attached is the engagement letter. In this > letter, Cloud Innovation will pay the legal expenses. In return we get a > free /24 prefix and I quote based on q&a: worth 1500$, donated by one of > their clients CI (speculation-to prove that the ip resources are being used > in africa), we can use it as long as the member doesn't need it for the > meantime etc... To do the right thing there should be no award nor reward > nor compensation! if this is not a bribe and conspiracy to wind down > afrinic and defame its members and the board, then, what is this exactly?* > > > > > > > t*he ipv4 free lease captured in an email by Lamiaa in October and it was > the discussion since the beginning with Meriem and Vivien* > > > > > > > > > > > *The campaign, the email, and discussions built on a single fact that the > bank account is frozen, but they did not say by who nor that they are part > of this, but they were fully ignorant to share the APPLEBY document. in > their attempts, I have seen intimidation on the fate of the IP resources > and urging me to sign as if AfriNIC is closing now and after a few hours > the IP resources I have will stop. Those who would like the screenshots of > the chat are free to request them.* > > > > *It is worth Mentioning that One Melvin Cheng (+85295755408 communicated > from China, MS. Meriem introduced me to Her Boss (Ms Vivien) and Miss > Vivien communicated with me on Zoom and Lu Heng was with on zoom - Just to > connect the dots briefly.* > > > > *the bribe for the vote came later and will be sent via another email.* > > *I sent a letter to NCC in August 2021 with all pieces of evidence I have > then.* > > > > *The first encounter with Meriem was in June 2021 for the elections, she > was on the Campaign team of one Nominee.* > > > > *Happy fishing* > > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: 4.png Type: image/png Size: 74316 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mirriamlauren at yahoo.com Thu Jun 23 19:00:21 2022 From: mirriamlauren at yahoo.com (Mirriam) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 19:00:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Community-Discuss] NRA/NRS petitions on behalf of Members In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <337719521.4373260.1656010821698@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Amin, Thank you for sharing this very shocking accounts. Its really shocking to read what you just wrote and more importantly at what length these organisations are willing to go. This is really horrible, all for what? Mirriam. On Thursday, June 23, 2022, 11:45:09 AM GMT+3, Amin Dayekh wrote: Dear Community, Following the freeze of Afrinic's bank account, and according to the video published here?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32xCurWfJo4&t=11s I was contacted (Again but this time on behalf of NRA/NRS Larus and cloud innovation, we may explain the first encounter later) by Ms. Meriem Dayedaye, from Morocco with phone number?+212607925078?m.dayedaye at nrs.help?dym5328 at gmail.com? She and other Chinese Colleagues called me on phone first, then we communicated on WhatsApp, discussing a Lot about the?Afrinic Freeze of Account and how that will affect us as members. They thought that they will fool us and provided the?solution to us: Join NRA, SIGN a Letter to AfriNIC Board, and Sign a letter to NRO, but first, you must be a member of NRA/NRS?and sign NDA. Attached are the documents and below is the email, I cannot find the right words for the pressure they put to get the documents signed. As it is evident in the letters and communication, they are presenting themselves the angels and saviors. During this time I communicated with AfriNIC to know what is the story. communication continued and on July 30, 2021, need to check the emails well they communicated again with an updated letter titled?Anti-trust action against AFRINIC in Mauritius - Terms of Engagement on APPLEBY Letter Headed paper, ( I CANNOT VERIFY IF APPLEBY IS AWARE of THIS, BUT AS A LAW FIRM THEY SHOULD KNOW WELL THAT THIS LETTER BEING SENT BY ANOTHER PARTY AS IT IS A REGULATORY ISSUE). Attached is the engagement?letter. In this letter, Cloud Innovation will pay the legal expenses. In return we get a free /24 prefix and I quote based on q&a: worth 1500$, donated by one of their clients CI (speculation-to prove that the ip resources are being used in africa), we can use it as long as the member doesn't need it for the meantime etc... To do the right thing there should be no award nor reward nor compensation! if this is not a bribe and conspiracy to wind down afrinic and defame its members and the board, then, what is this exactly? the ipv4 free lease captured in an email by Lamiaa in October and it was the discussion since the beginning with Meriem and Vivien The campaign, the email, and discussions built on a single fact that the bank account is frozen, but they did not say by who nor that they are part of this, but they were fully ignorant to share the?APPLEBY document. in their attempts, I have seen intimidation on the fate of the IP resources and urging me to sign as if AfriNIC is closing now and after a few hours the IP resources I have will stop. Those who would like the screenshots?of the chat are free to request them. It is worth Mentioning that One Melvin Cheng (+85295755408 communicated from China, MS. Meriem introduced me to Her Boss (Ms Vivien) and Miss Vivien communicated with me on Zoom and Lu Heng was?with on zoom - Just to connect the dots briefly. the bribe for the vote came later and will be sent via another email.I sent a letter to NCC in August 2021 with all pieces of evidence?I have then. The first encounter with Meriem was in June 2021 for the elections, she was on the Campaign team of one Nominee. Happy fishing?? _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 105431 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 62890 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 74315 bytes Desc: not available URL: From admin at megamore.ng Thu Jun 23 19:05:42 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 20:05:42 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] NRA/NRS petitions on behalf of Members In-Reply-To: <337719521.4373260.1656010821698@mail.yahoo.com> References: <337719521.4373260.1656010821698@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Mirriam Stay tuned for more after they justify: Which part of my email was allegation Which part of my email was Defamation All what i did was describing facts based on evidences i sent captured and attached They think I will be intimidated! Apparently they did not read the Law well, and they don't understand the meaning of their email, most importantly i reside in a country that this kind of nonsense accusations they are making will never stand. I also await Appleby to know if that letter was really made by them (which i doubt) On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 8:00 PM Mirriam wrote: > > Dear Amin, > > Thank you for sharing this very shocking accounts. > > Its really shocking to read what you just wrote and more importantly at > what length these organisations are willing to go. > > This is really horrible, all for what? > > Mirriam. > > On Thursday, June 23, 2022, 11:45:09 AM GMT+3, Amin Dayekh < > admin at megamore.ng> wrote: > > > *Dear Community,* > > *Following the freeze of Afrinic's bank account, and according to the > video published here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32xCurWfJo4&t=11s > I was contacted (Again > but this time on behalf of NRA/NRS Larus and cloud innovation, we may > explain the first encounter later) by Ms. Meriem Dayedaye, from Morocco > with phone number +212607925078 *m.dayedaye at nrs.help dym5328 at gmail.com > > *She and other Chinese Colleagues called me on phone first, then we > communicated on WhatsApp, discussing a Lot about the Afrinic Freeze of > Account and how that will affect us as members. They thought that they will > fool us and provided the solution to us: Join NRA, SIGN a Letter to AfriNIC > Board, and Sign a letter to NRO, but first, you must be a member of > NRA/NRS and sign NDA.* > > *Attached are the documents and below is the email, I cannot find the > right words for the pressure they put to get the documents signed. As it is > evident in the letters and communication, they are presenting themselves > the angels and saviors.* > > [image: image.png] > > *During this time I communicated with AfriNIC to know what is the story.* > > *communication continued and on July 30, 2021, need to check the emails > well they communicated again with an updated letter titled Anti-trust > action against AFRINIC in Mauritius - Terms of Engagement on APPLEBY Letter > Headed paper, ( I CANNOT VERIFY IF APPLEBY IS AWARE of THIS, BUT AS A LAW > FIRM THEY SHOULD KNOW WELL THAT THIS LETTER BEING SENT BY ANOTHER PARTY AS > IT IS A REGULATORY ISSUE). Attached is the engagement letter. In this > letter, Cloud Innovation will pay the legal expenses. In return we get a > free /24 prefix and I quote based on q&a: worth 1500$, donated by one of > their clients CI (speculation-to prove that the ip resources are being used > in africa), we can use it as long as the member doesn't need it for the > meantime etc... To do the right thing there should be no award nor reward > nor compensation! if this is not a bribe and conspiracy to wind down > afrinic and defame its members and the board, then, what is this exactly?* > > [image: image.png] > > t*he ipv4 free lease captured in an email by Lamiaa in October and it was > the discussion since the beginning with Meriem and Vivien* > > [image: image.png] > > > > *The campaign, the email, and discussions built on a single fact that the > bank account is frozen, but they did not say by who nor that they are part > of this, but they were fully ignorant to share the APPLEBY document. in > their attempts, I have seen intimidation on the fate of the IP resources > and urging me to sign as if AfriNIC is closing now and after a few hours > the IP resources I have will stop. Those who would like the screenshots of > the chat are free to request them.* > > *It is worth Mentioning that One Melvin Cheng (+85295755408 communicated > from China, MS. Meriem introduced me to Her Boss (Ms Vivien) and Miss > Vivien communicated with me on Zoom and Lu Heng was with on zoom - Just to > connect the dots briefly.* > > *the bribe for the vote came later and will be sent via another email.* > *I sent a letter to NCC in August 2021 with all pieces of evidence I have > then.* > > *The first encounter with Meriem was in June 2021 for the elections, she > was on the Campaign team of one Nominee.* > > *Happy fishing* > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 74315 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 105431 bytes Desc: not available URL: From admin at megamore.ng Thu Jun 23 21:06:39 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 22:06:39 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Vote Buying FACTS Message-ID: *Dear Community,* *Following the last email and according to the video published here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32xCurWfJo4&t=11s * *This year, January I have been approached for the purpose of selling my vote.* *Ms Vivien presented herself in 2021 as working for Larus which funded and founded by cloud innovation and later she appeard as NRS/NRA during the communication and she was with me on Zoom Meeting with Lu Heng.* *I have been accused by some member ls of making wild accusations.* *Attached are chats with Ms Vivien and Mr Samuel who is lobbying to buy votes and at the same time is their candidate for the board who, allegedly , is stop the corruption of afrinic* *I have never experienced more deception to the public than this!* *The corrupted Entities are calling the others corrupt!* *Read the chat they speak for themselves * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: IMG_8704.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 184934 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_8700.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 245992 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jun 23 23:58:45 2022 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 16:58:45 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Fwd: NRA/NRS petitions on behalf of Members In-Reply-To: <18191977235.1011e09f91506180.1612913540012952031@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: <4056.1656028725@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message <18191977235.1011e09f91506180.1612913540012952031 at cloudinnovation.or g>, tech at cloudinnovation.org wrote: >It is of great concern that we have taken note of highly defamatory allegations >by Amin Dayekh and on behalf of MegaMore Broadband. We wish to inform >the community at large that those allegations are denied in the strongest >possible terms. > > >Members should note that this matter is subject to judicial proceedings >whereby we are seeking for justice against said entities. Any repetition by >the entities or repetition of the claims by anyone else will be subject to >further judicial proceedings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barratry_(common_law) "In his Inferno, Canto XXI, Dante places barrators in the Eighth Circle, fifth bolgia of Hell." Regards, rfg From rfg at tristatelogic.com Fri Jun 24 03:32:10 2022 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2022 20:32:10 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Fwd: NRA/NRS petitions on behalf of Members In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5261.1656041530@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Noah wrote: >This forum is for public discourse and not intimidation. Apparently not always. Regards, rfg P.S. I hope that someone who is more familiar with AFRINIC formalities and procedures will help me here. I wish to make a formal proposal to amend the AFRINIC Code Of Conduct, but I have no idea how to go about that, so I need help. Specifically, after having reviewed the Code Of Conduct that is online on the AFRINIC web site just now, I see that it fails to specifically and explicitly prohibit the making of threats of either (a) bodily harm or (b) legal action, either against any individual and/or against the membership or community as a whole. The latter is something that we have all just now witnessed on this very mailing list. This is disgusting in the extreme, and is a clear and unambiguous attempt to bully the entire community into silence via threats of legal action. Subject to the rules of various applicable African jurisdictions, anyone is free to sue anyone else, at any time, and for any cause for which they feel that they have a reasonable cause of action. And anyone can do that, at any time, *without* announcing their intentions on an AFRINIC mailing list. It is however highly and clearly inappropriate to post about such legal actions, or to even make legal threats on any AFRINIC mailing list, because any such legal actions, if they are ever brought at all, are clearly private matters between the parties and their attorneys... private matters which clearly do not involve the AFRINIC community as a whole. It is my opinion that the current AFRINIC Code of Conduct does *not* clearly and unambiguously state that threats of either bodily harm or legal action are violations of the Code of Conduct, and as a general principal I *do not* feel that there should now be any enforcement of the Code of Conduct against any behavior which is not already specifically and clearly prohibited by the current Code of Conduct. (That, I think, would be unfair and a violation of due process.) On that basis, I *do not* personally judge that has comitted a violation of the current Code of conduct, as currently written, but I would urge the greatest possible haste in amending the CoC so as to make such threats, and indeed any and all threats a clear and specific violation of the CoC. From noah at neo.co.tz Fri Jun 24 05:43:30 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 08:43:30 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] AfriNIC Mailing CoC and Legal Suit Intimidations Message-ID: Hi Ronald You raise very important points and I would like to now call on the attension of AFRINIC management on this since the ammendments to the Code of Conduct are endorsed by we the community time after time through public consultation. We can therefore add your suggestions to the current AFRINIC code of conduct. I have faced such first hand attempts of intimidation myself and continue to face the same especially from Lu Heng and his stooges and yes-men but I am never bothered by it because our participation and opinions are based on objective facts or what you would call in legal terms *fair comments*. There have been occassional accusations of xenophobia, tribalism and racism on this lists as well by those who enjoy intimidating other participants. So something has to be done unless AFRINIC and whoever is responsible are happy with the current lack of community participation in the wake of all defamation accusation based intimidation. The Irony is that AFRINIC the organization and its members continue to face countless intimidations through courts considering the ammount of interim injuctions and ex-parte applications. And since most folk have a natural phonia for courts or legal proceedings, they end up in total silence. Courts are important institutions and we ought to embrace them but let no one threaten or intimidate anyone with suits as long us you got your facts and most importantly believe in freedoms of expressions and participation in public forum discourse. Cheers, Noah On Fri, 24 Jun 2022, 06:37 Ronald F. Guilmette, wrote: > In message 1Z6gdyAEA at mail.gmail.com> > Noah wrote: > > >This forum is for public discourse and not intimidation. > > Apparently not always. > > > Regards, > rfg > > > P.S. I hope that someone who is more familiar with AFRINIC formalities and > procedures will help me here. I wish to make a formal proposal to amend > the AFRINIC Code Of Conduct, but I have no idea how to go about that, so > I need help. > > Specifically, after having reviewed the Code Of Conduct that is online on > the AFRINIC web site just now, I see that it fails to specifically and > explicitly prohibit the making of threats of either (a) bodily harm or > (b) legal action, either against any individual and/or against the > membership or community as a whole. > > The latter is something that we have all just now witnessed on this very > mailing list. This is disgusting in the extreme, and is a clear and > unambiguous attempt to bully the entire community into silence via threats > of legal action. > > Subject to the rules of various applicable African jurisdictions, anyone > is free to sue anyone else, at any time, and for any cause for which they > feel that they have a reasonable cause of action. And anyone can do that, > at any time, *without* announcing their intentions on an AFRINIC mailing > list. It is however highly and clearly inappropriate to post about such > legal actions, or to even make legal threats on any AFRINIC mailing list, > because any such legal actions, if they are ever brought at all, are > clearly private matters between the parties and their attorneys... private > matters which clearly do not involve the AFRINIC community as a whole. > > It is my opinion that the current AFRINIC Code of Conduct does *not* > clearly > and unambiguously state that threats of either bodily harm or legal action > are violations of the Code of Conduct, and as a general principal I *do > not* > feel that there should now be any enforcement of the Code of Conduct > against > any behavior which is not already specifically and clearly prohibited by > the > current Code of Conduct. (That, I think, would be unfair and a violation > of > due process.) On that basis, I *do not* personally judge that > has comitted a violation of the current Code of > conduct, as currently written, but I would urge the greatest possible haste > in amending the CoC so as to make such threats, and indeed any and all > threats > a clear and specific violation of the CoC. > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iyedigoma at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 11:54:52 2022 From: iyedigoma at gmail.com (Iyedi Goma) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 12:54:52 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] AfriNIC Mailing CoC and Legal Suit Intimidations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: c est une veritable honte de croire qu ils vont finir par faire plier les forces vives par la peur c est une honte je pense que ceux qui sont en charge de la r?glementation des discussions doivent s'en charger et agir sans d?lais Le ven. 24 juin 2022 ? 06:55, Noah a ?crit : > Hi Ronald > > You raise very important points and I would like to now call on the > attension of AFRINIC management on this since the ammendments to the Code > of Conduct are endorsed by we the community time after time through public > consultation. > > We can therefore add your suggestions to the current AFRINIC code of > conduct. > > I have faced such first hand attempts of intimidation myself and continue > to face the same especially from Lu Heng and his stooges and yes-men but I > am never bothered by it because our participation and opinions are based on > objective facts or what you would call in legal terms *fair comments*. > > There have been occassional accusations of xenophobia, tribalism and > racism on this lists as well by those who enjoy intimidating other > participants. > > So something has to be done unless AFRINIC and whoever is responsible are > happy with the current lack of community participation in the wake of all > defamation accusation based intimidation. > > The Irony is that AFRINIC the organization and its members continue to > face countless intimidations through courts considering the ammount of > interim injuctions and ex-parte applications. > > And since most folk have a natural phonia for courts or legal proceedings, > they end up in total silence. Courts are important institutions and we > ought to embrace them but let no one threaten or intimidate anyone with > suits as long us you got your facts and most importantly believe in > freedoms of expressions and participation in public forum discourse. > > Cheers, > Noah > > On Fri, 24 Jun 2022, 06:37 Ronald F. Guilmette, > wrote: > >> In message > 1Z6gdyAEA at mail.gmail.com> >> Noah wrote: >> >> >This forum is for public discourse and not intimidation. >> >> Apparently not always. >> >> >> Regards, >> rfg >> >> >> P.S. I hope that someone who is more familiar with AFRINIC formalities >> and >> procedures will help me here. I wish to make a formal proposal to amend >> the AFRINIC Code Of Conduct, but I have no idea how to go about that, so >> I need help. >> >> Specifically, after having reviewed the Code Of Conduct that is online on >> the AFRINIC web site just now, I see that it fails to specifically and >> explicitly prohibit the making of threats of either (a) bodily harm or >> (b) legal action, either against any individual and/or against the >> membership or community as a whole. >> >> The latter is something that we have all just now witnessed on this very >> mailing list. This is disgusting in the extreme, and is a clear and >> unambiguous attempt to bully the entire community into silence via threats >> of legal action. >> >> Subject to the rules of various applicable African jurisdictions, anyone >> is free to sue anyone else, at any time, and for any cause for which they >> feel that they have a reasonable cause of action. And anyone can do that, >> at any time, *without* announcing their intentions on an AFRINIC mailing >> list. It is however highly and clearly inappropriate to post about such >> legal actions, or to even make legal threats on any AFRINIC mailing list, >> because any such legal actions, if they are ever brought at all, are >> clearly private matters between the parties and their attorneys... private >> matters which clearly do not involve the AFRINIC community as a whole. >> >> It is my opinion that the current AFRINIC Code of Conduct does *not* >> clearly >> and unambiguously state that threats of either bodily harm or legal action >> are violations of the Code of Conduct, and as a general principal I *do >> not* >> feel that there should now be any enforcement of the Code of Conduct >> against >> any behavior which is not already specifically and clearly prohibited by >> the >> current Code of Conduct. (That, I think, would be unfair and a violation >> of >> due process.) On that basis, I *do not* personally judge that >> has comitted a violation of the current Code >> of >> conduct, as currently written, but I would urge the greatest possible >> haste >> in amending the CoC so as to make such threats, and indeed any and all >> threats >> a clear and specific violation of the CoC. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amessinoukossi at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 12:13:32 2022 From: amessinoukossi at gmail.com (Kossi Amessinou) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 13:13:32 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] AfriNIC Mailing CoC and Legal Suit Intimidations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bonjour ? tous. Nous a?n?s doivent nous aider ? r?gler cette histoire qui ne valorise pas la communaut? africaine. Le ven. 24 juin 2022 ? 12:56, Iyedi Goma a ?crit : > c est une veritable honte de croire qu ils vont finir par faire plier les > forces vives par la peur > c est une honte je pense que ceux qui sont en charge de la r?glementation > des discussions doivent s'en charger et agir sans d?lais > > Le ven. 24 juin 2022 ? 06:55, Noah a ?crit : > >> Hi Ronald >> >> You raise very important points and I would like to now call on the >> attension of AFRINIC management on this since the ammendments to the Code >> of Conduct are endorsed by we the community time after time through public >> consultation. >> >> We can therefore add your suggestions to the current AFRINIC code of >> conduct. >> >> I have faced such first hand attempts of intimidation myself and continue >> to face the same especially from Lu Heng and his stooges and yes-men but I >> am never bothered by it because our participation and opinions are based on >> objective facts or what you would call in legal terms *fair comments*. >> >> There have been occassional accusations of xenophobia, tribalism and >> racism on this lists as well by those who enjoy intimidating other >> participants. >> >> So something has to be done unless AFRINIC and whoever is responsible are >> happy with the current lack of community participation in the wake of all >> defamation accusation based intimidation. >> >> The Irony is that AFRINIC the organization and its members continue to >> face countless intimidations through courts considering the ammount of >> interim injuctions and ex-parte applications. >> >> And since most folk have a natural phonia for courts or legal >> proceedings, they end up in total silence. Courts are important >> institutions and we ought to embrace them but let no one threaten or >> intimidate anyone with suits as long us you got your facts and most >> importantly believe in freedoms of expressions and participation in public >> forum discourse. >> >> Cheers, >> Noah >> >> On Fri, 24 Jun 2022, 06:37 Ronald F. Guilmette, >> wrote: >> >>> In message >> 1Z6gdyAEA at mail.gmail.com> >>> Noah wrote: >>> >>> >This forum is for public discourse and not intimidation. >>> >>> Apparently not always. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> rfg >>> >>> >>> P.S. I hope that someone who is more familiar with AFRINIC formalities >>> and >>> procedures will help me here. I wish to make a formal proposal to amend >>> the AFRINIC Code Of Conduct, but I have no idea how to go about that, so >>> I need help. >>> >>> Specifically, after having reviewed the Code Of Conduct that is online on >>> the AFRINIC web site just now, I see that it fails to specifically and >>> explicitly prohibit the making of threats of either (a) bodily harm or >>> (b) legal action, either against any individual and/or against the >>> membership or community as a whole. >>> >>> The latter is something that we have all just now witnessed on this very >>> mailing list. This is disgusting in the extreme, and is a clear and >>> unambiguous attempt to bully the entire community into silence via >>> threats >>> of legal action. >>> >>> Subject to the rules of various applicable African jurisdictions, anyone >>> is free to sue anyone else, at any time, and for any cause for which they >>> feel that they have a reasonable cause of action. And anyone can do >>> that, >>> at any time, *without* announcing their intentions on an AFRINIC mailing >>> list. It is however highly and clearly inappropriate to post about such >>> legal actions, or to even make legal threats on any AFRINIC mailing list, >>> because any such legal actions, if they are ever brought at all, are >>> clearly private matters between the parties and their attorneys... >>> private >>> matters which clearly do not involve the AFRINIC community as a whole. >>> >>> It is my opinion that the current AFRINIC Code of Conduct does *not* >>> clearly >>> and unambiguously state that threats of either bodily harm or legal >>> action >>> are violations of the Code of Conduct, and as a general principal I *do >>> not* >>> feel that there should now be any enforcement of the Code of Conduct >>> against >>> any behavior which is not already specifically and clearly prohibited by >>> the >>> current Code of Conduct. (That, I think, would be unfair and a >>> violation of >>> due process.) On that basis, I *do not* personally judge that >>> has comitted a violation of the current Code >>> of >>> conduct, as currently written, but I would urge the greatest possible >>> haste >>> in amending the CoC so as to make such threats, and indeed any and all >>> threats >>> a clear and specific violation of the CoC. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at megamore.ng Fri Jun 24 16:18:49 2022 From: admin at megamore.ng (Amin Dayekh) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 17:18:49 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Vote Buying FACTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Fellow members, I have just received a letter from Lawyers of Cloud Innovation (as per the letter), they expect us to reply in three days while there is no work tomorrow and next ??. I respect the law, I am a law-abiding citizen and they will hear my reply in due course. I would like to inform you that such acts are considered silly in my view as usually people seeking justice rush to courts, not the people whose staff are offering a bribe to vote for them. That is the first offer. Then they said they will do investment in the company on yearly basis and get a small share which I rejected, Just the right to vote and the money in return. Read the Chat attached. I hereby forward more chats with Ms. Vivien about our discussion on the terms of payment to get my vote and other members that I will recruit for them. It is worth mentioning: apparently, the plan was to buy votes and guarantee members, and then when they did not succeed with many or I hope any, they added the term annual investment "according to the chat for the annual investment", and then to make the malicious contract appear legal they formed the share thing. In my case, we agreed and finalized only vote no shares 50-50 payment and that is where we stopped. The chat is self-explanatory, have fun and enjoy your weekend. Happy Fishing P.S. I have been receiving a huge number of spam emails and links, shockingly some of them are carrying names of members here, but the emails are not their emails. Here I say Happy Phishing. [image: 6.jpeg][image: 7.jpeg][image: 8.jpeg][image: 9.jpeg][image: 10.jpeg][image: 1.jpeg][image: 2.jpeg][image: 3.jpeg][image: 4.jpeg][image: 5.jpeg] On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 10:06 PM Amin Dayekh wrote: > *Dear Community,* > > *Following the last email and according to the video published > here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32xCurWfJo4&t=11s > * > > *This year, January I have been approached for the purpose of selling my > vote.* > > *Ms Vivien presented herself in 2021 as working for Larus which funded and > founded by cloud innovation and later she appeard as NRS/NRA during the > communication and she was with me on Zoom Meeting with Lu Heng.* > > *I have been accused by some member ls of making wild accusations.* > > *Attached are chats with Ms Vivien and Mr Samuel who is lobbying to buy > votes and at the same time is their candidate for the board who, allegedly > , is stop the corruption of afrinic* > > *I have never experienced more deception to the public than this!* > > *The corrupted Entities are calling the others corrupt!* > > *Read the chat they speak for themselves * > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: IMG_8703.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 223586 bytes Desc: not available URL: From s.uzoechi at nrs.help Fri Jun 24 17:04:57 2022 From: s.uzoechi at nrs.help (Samuel Uchenna Uzoechi) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 18:04:57 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] NRS Official Response to Amin Dayekh allegation highlighting concerns around potential terrorism funding and support. In-Reply-To: <18196a90e88.100659bab1794445.2833425632820934424@nrs.help> References: <18196a5a315.108e8a7391793557.1186135908349846043@nrs.help> <18196a90e88.100659bab1794445.2833425632820934424@nrs.help> Message-ID: <18196ac82ce.10ef309a21795289.438972865823914737@nrs.help> Dear Colleagues, Amin?s recent, inflammatory posts about the NRS have obliged us to share our serious concerns about this gentleman over the past year with the community. ? Number Resource Society (NRS) is a global non-profit membership organization advocating for a global unlimited, stable and united Internet. NRS recognizes Internet as one universal resource that relies on a global free market and enterprise with excellent transparency and accountability. ? Amin Dayekh is a Lebanese national, and the CEO of MegaMore Wireless Broadband Limited an ISP company located in Kano, Northern part of Nigeria. As one of the Resource company's, we approached him as we have approached all other stakeholders of the Internet to promote NRS ideology of transparency and accountability. But like they say, "looks can be deceptive". In the process of engaging him, we began to notice some questionable behaviour including hate speech and apparent support for a terrorist organization. Due to the seriousness of what we uncovered, we advised the officer engaging to continue to cooperate with his in order to gather evidence of potential criminal activity. ? Amin Dayekh initiated the request for money from one of NRS's employees, as well as soliciting support for him to become AFRINIC Director, as shown also in the screenshots shows, in which Amin has demanded, "When will you send the money?" "and his comment, "I am also interested to become a director in AFRINIC." This immediately raised serious red flags for us.??We proceeded to investigate Amin thoroughly as part of our standard due diligent process for the sake of a safer Internet. What we have uncovered after this Is extremely shocking and alarming. ? ?During our investigation, we found that Amin's social media posts were of huge concern - his comments have indicated his potential fundraising for a prescribed terrorist organization (HIZBOALLAH). This raised concerns that his incessant demand for money and ambition for AFRINIC's directorship, controlling AFRINIC could have been motivated by his apparent support of HIZBOALLAH, the terrorist organization. ? When we investigated further, we discovered Amin had published hate speech including the following comment:, "Our people should welcome Israelis with boiling oil and kitchen's knives". This level of hatred and violent language targeted towards the Jewish people was highly distressing and we recognised immediately, potentially criminal.?? ? It was when he noticed that we would not meet his demands for money and directorship to the board election of AFRINIC to he got angry and twisted the story. ? In the spirit of openness, we republish a number of Amin's public social media postings. Please note that these posts are distressing and are released only for transparency purposes. ? We condemn in the strongest possible terms the comments and hatred. ? Screenshots and Links from Amin's twitter: ? ? Translation: "The resistance, from standing by the Palestinian revolution, to most of the martyrs of the leftist parties, to AMAL and HIZBOALLAH is greater than your barking." Amin is praising HIZBO ALLAH (a terrorist organization) and replying to someone that the resistance, the revolution and HIZBO ALLAH are bigger than you.? Link: https://twitter.com/AminD1979/status/1192555553274441729 2. ? Translation: "Our people should welcome Israelis with boiling oil and kitchen?s knives. Our people that you don?t like its cloths or looks is the one who brought back dignity to Lebanon in the war of #Khelda and February 6th until the Israeli enemy said we are leaving tomorrow don?t shoot anymore." Amin saying here that The Israelis should even be greeted with boiling oil and kitchen knives. Link: https://twitter.com/AminD1979/status/1192550956485029890 3. Translation: #Syria is supposed to be a land of fight and war with the enemy, the army is supposed to be ready, the allies? army should fortify the battlefield. Then why do we still see the Zionist (Israeli) airplanes flying every now and then. Amin retweeted this picture that was deleted by the original author later after a series of upset comments from Ukrainians and people around the world who stand with Ukrainian people in the war.?? ? Link: https://twitter.com/AminD1979/status/938463719562063872 ? His comments and actions are distressing and alarming enough that we have reported him to the relevant anti-terrorism departments in the United States. ? His public comments were of great concern to us as an organization whose goal is to do the right thing by working with organizations and people of good and growth mindset, and we felt it was important to report him to the relevant departments in the United States of America. This is not a matter we take lightly, but in the interests of everyone involved and for the safety of his future victims, we are shedding light on his actions. ? Immediately after discovery, we ceased all communications with him. ? We understand that Amin approached the current management of AFRINIC after he discovered that we could not satisfy his demand for money and directorship. ? We are also of tremendous concern that the nomination committee, controlled by the current AFRINIC board, selected a potential terrorist funder or supporter as a candidate while disqualifying all the other good people on the continent. A simple exercise in due diligence by AFRINIC officials would have identified this serious issue and should have disqualified him. ? ? It seems that Mr Amin Dayekh still has close links with AFRINIC leadership which they need to be held to account for. AFRINIC must immediately condemn this hate speech and support for terrorist organisations.??Eddy Kayihura ? Hate speech: Terrorist sympathiser Mr Amin Dayekh pictured with AFRINIC CEO Eddy Kayihura in Mauritius, June 2022 ? ? We are confident that this explanation of the nature and extent of our engagement with Mr. Amin clears the picture. We have thought long and hard about whether to make this information public, and concluded that keeping the Internet and our community safe is our priority. We will never tolerate any potential criminal or harmful activities.? For: Number Resource Society? ? ? ? ? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1.png Type: image/png Size: 324225 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2.png Type: image/png Size: 80492 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3.png Type: image/png Size: 112422 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 4.png Type: image/png Size: 90633 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 5.png Type: image/png Size: 668326 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 6.png Type: image/png Size: 2114479 bytes Desc: not available URL: From s.uzoechi at nrs.help Fri Jun 24 17:47:56 2022 From: s.uzoechi at nrs.help (Samuel Uchenna Uzoechi) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 18:47:56 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] NRS Official Response to Amin Dayekh allegation highlighting concerns around potential terrorism funding and support. In-Reply-To: <18196a5a315.108e8a7391793557.1186135908349846043@nrs.help> References: <18196a5a315.108e8a7391793557.1186135908349846043@nrs.help> Message-ID: <18196d3dfa3.11128395f1804933.6330862301213364542@nrs.help> Please find attached Amin?s twitter posts. Warning: the messages may be disturbing for the viewers. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WDwXkZ44cLI800hN0txD-QZf6OLgwux0/view?usp=sharing ---- On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 17:57:26 +0100 Samuel Uchenna Uzoechi wrote --- Dear Colleagues, ? Amin?s recent, inflammatory posts about the NRS have obliged us to share our serious concerns about this gentleman over the past year with the community. ? Number Resource Society (NRS) is a global non-profit membership organization advocating for a global unlimited, stable and united Internet. NRS recognizes Internet as one universal resource that relies on a global free market and enterprise with excellent transparency and accountability. ? Amin Dayekh is a Lebanese national, and the CEO of MegaMore Wireless Broadband Limited an ISP company located in Kano, Northern part of Nigeria. As one of the Resource company's, we approached him as we have approached all other stakeholders of the Internet to promote NRS ideology of transparency and accountability. But like they say, "looks can be deceptive". In the process of engaging him, we began to notice some questionable behaviour including hate speech and apparent support for a terrorist organization. Due to the seriousness of what we uncovered, we advised the officer engaging to continue to cooperate with his in order to gather evidence of potential criminal activity. ? Amin Dayekh initiated the request for money from one of NRS's employees, as well as soliciting support for him to become AFRINIC Director, as shown also in the screenshots shows, in which Amin has demanded, "When will you send the money?" "and his comment, "I am also interested to become a director in AFRINIC." This immediately raised serious red flags for us.??We proceeded to investigate Amin thoroughly as part of our standard due diligent process for the sake of a safer Internet. What we have uncovered after this Is extremely shocking and alarming. ? ?During our investigation, we found that Amin's social media posts were of huge concern - his comments have indicated his potential fundraising for a prescribed terrorist organization (HIZBOALLAH). This raised concerns that his incessant demand for money and ambition for AFRINIC's directorship, controlling AFRINIC could have been motivated by his apparent support of HIZBOALLAH, the terrorist organization. ? When we investigated further, we discovered Amin had published hate speech including the following comment:, "Our people should welcome Israelis with boiling oil and kitchen's knives". This level of hatred and violent language targeted towards the Jewish people was highly distressing and we recognised immediately, potentially criminal.?? ? It was when he noticed that we would not meet his demands for money and directorship to the board election of AFRINIC to he got angry and twisted the story. ? In the spirit of openness, we republish a number of Amin's public social media postings. Please note that these posts are distressing and are released only for transparency purposes. ? We condemn in the strongest possible terms the comments and hatred. ? Screenshots and Links from Amin's twitter: ? ? Translation: "The resistance, from standing by the Palestinian revolution, to most of the martyrs of the leftist parties, to AMAL and HIZBOALLAH is greater than your barking." Amin is praising HIZBO ALLAH (a terrorist organization) and replying to someone that the resistance, the revolution and HIZBO ALLAH are bigger than you.? Link: https://twitter.com/AminD1979/status/1192555553274441729 2. ? Translation: "Our people should welcome Israelis with boiling oil and kitchen?s knives. Our people that you don?t like its cloths or looks is the one who brought back dignity to Lebanon in the war of #Khelda and February 6th until the Israeli enemy said we are leaving tomorrow don?t shoot anymore." Amin saying here that The Israelis should even be greeted with boiling oil and kitchen knives. Link: https://twitter.com/AminD1979/status/1192550956485029890 3. Translation: #Syria is supposed to be a land of fight and war with the enemy, the army is supposed to be ready, the allies? army should fortify the battlefield. Then why do we still see the Zionist (Israeli) airplanes flying every now and then. Amin retweeted this picture that was deleted by the original author later after a series of upset comments from Ukrainians and people around the world who stand with Ukrainian people in the war.?? ? Link: https://twitter.com/AminD1979/status/938463719562063872 ? His comments and actions are distressing and alarming enough that we have reported him to the relevant anti-terrorism departments in the United States. ? His public comments were of great concern to us as an organization whose goal is to do the right thing by working with organizations and people of good and growth mindset, and we felt it was important to report him to the relevant departments in the United States of America. This is not a matter we take lightly, but in the interests of everyone involved and for the safety of his future victims, we are shedding light on his actions. ? Immediately after discovery, we ceased all communications with him. ? We understand that Amin approached the current management of AFRINIC after he discovered that we could not satisfy his demand for money and directorship. ? We are also of tremendous concern that the nomination committee, controlled by the current AFRINIC board, selected a potential terrorist funder or supporter as a candidate while disqualifying all the other good people on the continent. A simple exercise in due diligence by AFRINIC officials would have identified this serious issue and should have disqualified him. ? ? It seems that Mr Amin Dayekh still has close links with AFRINIC leadership which they need to be held to account for. AFRINIC must immediately condemn this hate speech and support for terrorist organisations.??Eddy Kayihura ? Hate speech: Terrorist sympathiser Mr Amin Dayekh pictured with AFRINIC CEO Eddy Kayihura in Mauritius, June 2022 ? ? We are confident that this explanation of the nature and extent of our engagement with Mr. Amin clears the picture. We have thought long and hard about whether to make this information public, and concluded that keeping the Internet and our community safe is our priority. We will never tolerate any potential criminal or harmful activities.? For: Number Resource Society ? ? ? ? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: 6.png Type: image/png Size: 2114479 bytes Desc: not available URL: From iyedigoma at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 18:00:59 2022 From: iyedigoma at gmail.com (Iyedi Goma) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 19:00:59 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] NRS Official Response to Amin Dayekh allegation highlighting concerns around potential terrorism funding and support. In-Reply-To: <18196d3dfa3.11128395f1804933.6330862301213364542@nrs.help> References: <18196a5a315.108e8a7391793557.1186135908349846043@nrs.help> <18196d3dfa3.11128395f1804933.6330862301213364542@nrs.help> Message-ID: slt samuel /hi samuel I have read your reply or your right to reply, could you please reply to us on the direct accusations, Would you like to have these exchanges? Do you acknowledge that you made these proposals to amin? Do you admit that you wished to acquire the votes of the other members? With all due respect, I think that is where the rest of us would like to see some answers. Sincerely Le ven. 24 juin 2022 ? 18:52, Samuel Uchenna Uzoechi a ?crit : > *Please find attached Amin?s twitter posts. Warning: the messages may be > disturbing for the viewers.* > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WDwXkZ44cLI800hN0txD-QZf6OLgwux0/view?usp=sharing > > > > ---- On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 17:57:26 +0100 *Samuel Uchenna Uzoechi > * wrote --- > > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > > > Amin?s recent, inflammatory posts about the NRS have obliged us to share > our serious concerns about this gentleman over the past year with the > community. > > > > Number Resource Society (NRS) is a global non-profit membership > organization advocating for a global unlimited, stable and united Internet. > NRS recognizes Internet as one universal resource that relies on a global > free market and enterprise with excellent transparency and accountability. > > > > Amin Dayekh is a Lebanese national, and the CEO of MegaMore Wireless > Broadband Limited an ISP company located in Kano, Northern part of Nigeria. > As one of the Resource company's, we approached him as we have approached > all other stakeholders of the Internet to promote NRS ideology of > transparency and accountability. But like they say, "looks can be > deceptive". In the process of engaging him, we began to notice some > questionable behaviour including hate speech and apparent support for a > terrorist organization. Due to the seriousness of what we uncovered, we > advised the officer engaging to continue to cooperate with his in order to > gather evidence of potential criminal activity. > > > > Amin Dayekh initiated the request for money from one of NRS's employees, > as well as soliciting support for him to become AFRINIC Director, as shown > also in the screenshots shows, in which Amin has demanded, "When will you > send the money?" "and his comment, "I am also interested to become a > director in AFRINIC." This immediately raised serious red flags for us. We > proceeded to investigate Amin thoroughly as part of our standard due > diligent process for the sake of a safer Internet. What we have uncovered > after this Is extremely shocking and alarming. > > > > > During our investigation, we found that Amin's social media posts were > of huge concern - his comments have indicated his potential fundraising for > a prescribed terrorist organization (HIZBOALLAH). This raised concerns > that his incessant demand for money and ambition for AFRINIC's > directorship, controlling AFRINIC could have been motivated by his apparent > support of HIZBOALLAH, the terrorist organization. > > > > When we investigated further, we discovered Amin had published hate speech > including the following comment:, "Our people should welcome Israelis with > boiling oil and kitchen's knives". This level of hatred and violent > language targeted towards the Jewish people was highly distressing and we > recognised immediately, potentially criminal. > > > > It was when he noticed that we would not meet his demands for money and > directorship to the board election of AFRINIC to he got angry and twisted > the story. > > > > In the spirit of openness, we republish a number of Amin's public social > media postings. Please note that these posts are distressing and are > released only for transparency purposes. > > > > We condemn in the strongest possible terms the comments and hatred. > > > > Screenshots and Links from Amin's twitter: > > > > 1. > > > > > *Translation:* > > *"The resistance, from standing by the Palestinian revolution, to most of > the martyrs of the leftist parties, to AMAL and HIZBOALLAH is greater than > your barking."* > > Amin is praising HIZBO ALLAH (a terrorist organization) and replying to > someone that the resistance, the revolution and HIZBO ALLAH are bigger than > you. > > Link: https://twitter.com/AminD1979/status/1192555553274441729 > > 2. > > > > > *Translation:* > > "Our people should welcome Israelis with boiling oil and kitchen?s knives. > Our people that you don?t like its cloths or looks is the one who brought > back dignity to Lebanon in the war of #Khelda and February 6th until the > Israeli enemy said we are leaving tomorrow don?t shoot anymore." > > Amin saying here that The Israelis should even be greeted with boiling oil > and kitchen knives. > > Link: https://twitter.com/AminD1979/status/1192550956485029890 > > 3. > > > Translation: > > #Syria is supposed to be a land of fight and war with the enemy, the army > is supposed to be ready, the allies? army should fortify the battlefield. > Then why do we still see the Zionist (Israeli) airplanes flying every now > and then. > > Amin retweeted this picture that was deleted by the original author later > after a series of upset comments from Ukrainians and people around the > world who stand with Ukrainian people in the war. > > > > > Link: https://twitter.com/AminD1979/status/938463719562063872 > > > > His comments and actions are distressing and alarming enough that we have > reported him to the relevant anti-terrorism departments in the United > States. > > > > His public comments were of great concern to us as an organization whose > goal is to do the right thing by working with organizations and people of > good and growth mindset, and we felt it was important to report him to the > relevant departments in the United States of America. This is not a matter > we take lightly, but in the interests of everyone involved and for the > safety of his future victims, we are shedding light on his actions. > > > > Immediately after discovery, we ceased all communications with him. > > > > We understand that Amin approached the current management of AFRINIC after > he discovered that we could not satisfy his demand for money and > directorship. > > > > We are also of tremendous concern that the nomination committee, > controlled by the current AFRINIC board, selected a potential terrorist > funder or supporter as a candidate while disqualifying all the other good > people on the continent. A simple exercise in due diligence by AFRINIC > officials would have identified this serious issue and should have > disqualified him. > > > > > > It seems that Mr Amin Dayekh still has close links with AFRINIC leadership > which they need to be held to account for. AFRINIC must immediately > condemn this hate speech and support for terrorist organisations. Eddy > Kayihura > > > > > Hate speech: Terrorist sympathiser Mr Amin Dayekh pictured with AFRINIC > CEO Eddy Kayihura in Mauritius, June 2022 > > > > > > We are confident that this explanation of the nature and extent of our > engagement with Mr. Amin clears the picture. We have thought long and hard > about whether to make this information public, and concluded that keeping > the Internet and our community safe is our priority. We will never tolerate > any potential criminal or harmful activities. > > *For: Number Resource Society* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: 6.png Type: image/png Size: 2114479 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eddy at afrinic.net Fri Jun 24 18:34:42 2022 From: eddy at afrinic.net (Eddy Kayihura) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 14:34:42 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Temporary emergency moderation Message-ID: <25692232-05DA-4237-9E80-F27786759DDA@afrinic.net> Dear Colleagues, We have been following the discussions on the AFRINIC mailing lists. We find some of the emails are neither in line with the purpose of the mailing list nor with the principles of the AFRINIC Code of Conduct. We therefore will temporarily moderate the community-discuss mailing lists starting from Friday, 24 June 2022, 18:10 UTC and until Monday 27 June 18:00 UTC when you will be informed about the new protocol. All emails, accepted or rejected, will be archived on the community list archive. -- Kind Regards Eddy Kayihura M. Chief Executive Officer African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) Ltd. ==== t: +230 403 51 00 | tt: @afrinic | https://www.afrinic.net | youtube.com/afrinicmedia ___________________________ Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) ******************************************************************************************************************* This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. ******************************************************************************************************************* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From comms at afrinic.net Mon Jun 27 17:37:01 2022 From: comms at afrinic.net (AFRINIC Communication) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 21:37:01 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC Code of Conduct Violations Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Recently, we have observed that the mailing lists are going out of control with members violating the AFRINIC Code of conduct guidelines including; Discussions that do not meet the intended purpose of the list Personal attacks, defamatory and other discriminatory comments Behavior and remarks that gave offense and discriminated based on social, cultural, ethic and personal differences Harassment and other conduct that created an intimidating or offensive environment As well as an overall lack of respect to one another. AFRINIC recognises one's freedom of expression as well as the right of each individual or entity to protect its rights. However, for us to be able to call ourselves a community there are certain common grounds and understanding that we ALL need to adhere to, in this case it is the AFRINIC code of conduct. Henceforth, the AFRINIC community-discuss mailing list will be moderated, until further notice. All emails sent to the community-discuss list will be archived on (https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss-unmoderated/), including the ones that will not be approved to be received by the mailing list members. Only emails approved by the moderators will be received by the mailing list members and will be archived on (https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss). The moderation itself will be carried out based on advice from the Governance Committee under 3.1.7 of the Governance committee TOR. The emails that were sent to the community-discuss mailing list from moderation till the time of sending out this email will be reviewed and archived to the provided links based on the above criteria. We urge you to read the AFRINIC Code of Conduct and make sure you are up to date on the processes that safeguard the discussion and community-driven policies at the heart of AFRINIC. (https://afrinic.net/code ) After testing this new setup, we will seek guidance from the community on how they have experienced it and if they have any recommendations, advice or reforms they see fit to deal with these issues in the long run. Your valuable collaboration on this is highly appreciated. Eddy Kayihura M. Chief Executive Officer African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) Ltd. ??????????.. Chers coll?gues, R?cemment, nous avons constat? que les listes de diffusion devenaient incontr?lables et que certains membres enfreignaient les lignes directrices du code de conduite d'AFRINIC ; Des discussions qui ne r?pondent pas ? l'objectif de la liste. Des attaques personnelles, des commentaires diffamatoires et autres commentaires discriminatoires. Comportement et remarques offensantes et discriminatoires bas?es sur des diff?rences sociales, culturelles, ?thiques et personnelles. harc?lement et autres comportements cr?ant un environnement intimidant ou offensant. ainsi qu'un manque g?n?ral de respect envers les autres. AFRINIC reconna?t la libert? d'expression de chacun ainsi que le droit de chaque individu ou entit? ? prot?ger ses droits. Cependant, pour que nous puissions nous appeler une communaut?, il existe certaines bases communes et une compr?hension que nous devons TOUS respecter, dans ce cas, il s'agit du code de conduite d'AFRINIC. Dor?navant, la liste de diffusion AFRINIC community-discuss sera mod?r?e, jusqu'? nouvel ordre. Tous les e-mails envoy?s ? la liste de discussion communautaire seront archiv?s sur (https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/admin/community-discuss-unmoderated), y compris ceux qui ne seront pas approuv?s sur la liste de diffusion. Seuls les courriels approuv?s par les mod?rateurs seront re?us par les membres de la liste de diffusion et seront archiv?s sur (https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss) messages approuv?s. La mod?ration elle-m?me sera effectu?e sur la base des conseils du comit? de gouvernance, conform?ment au point 3.1.7 des termes de r?f?rence du comit? de gouvernance. Les courriels qui ont ?t? envoy?s ? la liste de diffusion community-discuss depuis la mod?ration jusqu'au moment de l'envoi de ce courriel seront examin?s et archiv?s sur les liens fournis en fonction des crit?res ci-dessus. Nous vous invitons ? lire le code de conduite d'AFRINIC et ? vous assurer que vous ?tes au courant des processus qui prot?gent la discussion et les politiques communautaires au c?ur d'AFRINIC. (https://afrinic.net/code ) Apr?s avoir test? cette nouvelle configuration, nous demanderons l'avis de la communaut? sur cette nouvelle configuration et si elle a des recommandations, des conseils ou des r?formes qu'elle juge appropri?es pour traiter ces questions ? long terme. Votre pr?cieuse collaboration ? ce sujet est tr?s appr?ci?e. Eddy Kayihura M. Directeur g?n?ral African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) Ltd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https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss-unmoderated/) ? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ??? ???????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ???????? . ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ???????? ????? ??????? ??? (https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss). ???? ????? ???????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ????? 3.1.7 ?? ???????? ???? ???????. ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????????? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ??????? ???????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??? ??????? ???????? ????? ??? ???????? ???????? ?????. ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? AFRINIC ??????? ?? ?????? ???????? ???? ???? ???????? ????????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? AFRINIC. (https://afrinic.net/code) ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ?????? ? ????? ??????? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ???????? ??? ????? ??????. ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ????. ???? ???????? ?. ?????? ???????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ?????? (AFRINIC) Ltd. ????????? Caros Colegas, Recentemente, observ?mos que as listas de correio est?o a ficar fora de controlo com membros que violam as directrizes do C?digo de Conduta AFRINIC, incluindo; Discuss?es que n?o correspondem ao objectivo pretendido da lista Ataques pessoais, difamat?rios e outros coment?rios discriminat?rios Comportamento e observa??es que ofendem e discriminam com base nas diferen?as sociais, culturais, ?ticas e pessoais Ass?dio e outras condutas que criaram um ambiente intimidante ou ofensivo Assim como uma falta geral de respeito uns pelos outros. AFRINIC reconhece a liberdade de express?o, bem como o direito de cada indiv?duo ou entidade a proteger os seus direitos. Contudo, para que possamos chamar a n?s pr?prios uma comunidade, existem certos fundamentos e entendimento comuns a que todos n?s precisamos de aderir, neste caso ? o c?digo de conduta AFRINIC. A partir de agora, a lista de discuss?o da comunidade AFRINIC ser? moderada, at? novo aviso. Todos os e-mails enviados para a lista de discuss?o comunit?ria ser?o arquivados em https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/admin/community-discuss-unmoderated, incluindo os que n?o ser?o aprovados na lista de discuss?o. Apenas as mensagens de correio electr?nico aprovadas pelos moderadores ser?o recebidas pelos membros da lista de discuss?o e ser?o arquivadas em https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss mensagens aprovadas. A modera??o em si ser? levada a cabo com base no parecer da Comiss?o de Governa??o, nos termos do ponto 3.1.7 dos Termos de Refer?ncia da Comiss?o de Governa??o. Os e-mails que foram enviados para a lista de discuss?o comunit?ria desde a modera??o at? ao momento do envio deste e-mail ser?o analisados e arquivados para as liga??es fornecidas com base nos crit?rios acima referidos. Instamo-lo a ler o C?digo de Conduta da AFRINIC e a certificar-se de que est? actualizado sobre os processos que salvaguardam a discuss?o e as pol?ticas conduzidas pela comunidade no seio da AFRINIC. (https://afrinic.net/code ) Ap?s testarmos esta nova configura??o, procuraremos obter orienta??o da comunidade sobre a forma como experimentaram a nova configura??o e se tiverem quaisquer recomenda??es, conselhos ou reformas que considerem adequadas para lidar com estas quest?es a longo prazo. A sua valiosa colabora??o nesta mat?ria ? muito apreciada. Eddy Kayihura M. Chefe do Executivo African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) Ltd. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eddy at afrinic.net Tue Jun 28 12:52:12 2022 From: eddy at afrinic.net (Eddy Kayihura) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 16:52:12 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] A personal note Message-ID: <94FAE7DC-BE07-43E8-835F-322CF2FC7C33@afrinic.net> Dear All, I have been following the discussions on the AFRINIC members-discuss and community-discuss mailing lists. I find it unfortunately necessary that I must send out this email. I will not defend myself from the allegations made against me. Anyone who knows me, the history of my country, and my upbringing would know that I can never and would never support any call for tribalism or xenophobia. I know that even those who made such allegations against me are aware of how beneath them these tactics are. I will however use this opportunity to remind all, myself included, that hate is never the answer. Destroying bridges will always be easier than building them. Attempts to divide and concur us Africans are as old as time itself. Unfortunately, these calls sometimes come from within and not from abroad. AFRINIC was established as an entity that should unite us as a continent and build a community of like-minded people that care about the development of their land and does not focus on our differences, but rather take advantage of the robustness of our diversity and the strength in our numbers and unity. I hope you, like me, see what really is at stake here. Regards, Eddy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Fri Jun 24 19:26:26 2022 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 22:26:26 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Temporary emergency moderation In-Reply-To: <8ECF4AC4-88A3-48C3-B126-4F814FA63378@afrinic.net> References: <25692232-05DA-4237-9E80-F27786759DDA@afrinic.net> <8ECF4AC4-88A3-48C3-B126-4F814FA63378@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Hi Eddy Thanks a lot and noted. Noah On Fri, 24 Jun 2022, 22:25 Eddy Kayihura, wrote: > It will need to follow the Code of Conduct update process. > > However, item 4 of the Code of conduct covers part of what you asked in > our view. > > If not, then, let us follow the process of update of the code of conduct > which we did last year or so including consultations and approval. > -- > > Kind Regards > > Eddy Kayihura M. > Chief Executive Officer > African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) Ltd. > ==== > t: +230 403 51 00 | tt: @afrinic | https://www.afrinic.net | > youtube.com/afrinicmedia > ___________________________ > > Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth > in Africa? > Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient > services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? > Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) > > > > ******************************************************************************************************************* > This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are > confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. > They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to > whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error > please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail > from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, > copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is > strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any > attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective > and remedial action about viruses and other defects. > > > ******************************************************************************************************************* > > > > > On 24 Jun 2022, at 15:15, Noah wrote: > > Hi Eddy > > On a separate note, there were suggestions by Ronald and myself on the > need to update the code of conduct in a separate thread. > > Can this request be fast tracked? > > Noah > > On Fri, 24 Jun 2022, 21:43 Eddy Kayihura, wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> >> We have been following the discussions on the AFRINIC mailing lists. We >> find some of the emails are neither in line with the purpose of the mailing >> list nor with the principles of the AFRINIC Code of Conduct. >> >> >> We therefore will temporarily moderate the community-discuss mailing >> lists starting from Friday, 24 June 2022, 18:10 UTC and until Monday 27 >> June 18:00 UTC when you will be informed about the new protocol. >> >> All emails, accepted or rejected, will be archived on the community list >> archive. >> -- >> >> Kind Regards >> >> Eddy Kayihura M. >> Chief Executive Officer >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) Ltd. >> ==== >> t: +230 403 51 00 | tt: @afrinic | https://www.afrinic.net | >> youtube.com/afrinicmedia >> ___________________________ >> >> Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth >> in Africa? >> Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient >> services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? >> Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) >> >> >> >> ******************************************************************************************************************* >> This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are >> confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. >> They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to >> whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error >> please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail >> from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, >> copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is >> strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any >> attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective >> and remedial action about viruses and other defects. >> >> >> ******************************************************************************************************************* >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robertford2 at icloud.com Sat Jun 25 08:51:48 2022 From: robertford2 at icloud.com (robert ford) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2022 10:51:48 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Temporary emergency moderation In-Reply-To: <25692232-05DA-4237-9E80-F27786759DDA@afrinic.net> References: <25692232-05DA-4237-9E80-F27786759DDA@afrinic.net> Message-ID: <09773151-3E83-4225-9D27-FDCF809B4830@icloud.com> THANK YOU Eddy for prevailing with a great sense of leadership and wisdom. The integrity of the organization deserves immense protection. Regards Robert Ford Independent ICT Consultant EAC ONA & Tech Investments +250 788504406 Twitter: @robertnford Skype: robert4dd Sent from my MacBook Air 13? > On 24 Jun 2022, at 20:34, Eddy Kayihura > wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > We have been following the discussions on the AFRINIC mailing lists. We find some of the emails are neither in line with the purpose of the mailing list nor with the principles of the AFRINIC Code of Conduct. > > We therefore will temporarily moderate the community-discuss mailing lists starting from Friday, 24 June 2022, 18:10 UTC and until Monday 27 June 18:00 UTC when you will be informed about the new protocol. > > All emails, accepted or rejected, will be archived on the community list archive. > -- > > Kind Regards > > Eddy Kayihura M. > Chief Executive Officer > African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) Ltd. > ==== > t: +230 403 51 00 | tt: @afrinic | https://www.afrinic.net | youtube.com/afrinicmedia > ___________________________ > > Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? > Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? > Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) > > > ******************************************************************************************************************* > This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. > > ******************************************************************************************************************* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eddy at afrinic.net Fri Jun 24 19:24:47 2022 From: eddy at afrinic.net (Eddy Kayihura) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 15:24:47 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Temporary emergency moderation In-Reply-To: References: <25692232-05DA-4237-9E80-F27786759DDA@afrinic.net> Message-ID: <8ECF4AC4-88A3-48C3-B126-4F814FA63378@afrinic.net> It will need to follow the Code of Conduct update process. However, item 4 of the Code of conduct covers part of what you asked in our view. If not, then, let us follow the process of update of the code of conduct which we did last year or so including consultations and approval. -- Kind Regards Eddy Kayihura M. Chief Executive Officer African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) Ltd. ==== t: +230 403 51 00 | tt: @afrinic | https://www.afrinic.net | youtube.com/afrinicmedia ___________________________ Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) ******************************************************************************************************************* This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. ******************************************************************************************************************* > On 24 Jun 2022, at 15:15, Noah wrote: > > Hi Eddy > > On a separate note, there were suggestions by Ronald and myself on the need to update the code of conduct in a separate thread. > > Can this request be fast tracked? > > Noah > > On Fri, 24 Jun 2022, 21:43 Eddy Kayihura, > wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > We have been following the discussions on the AFRINIC mailing lists. We find some of the emails are neither in line with the purpose of the mailing list nor with the principles of the AFRINIC Code of Conduct. > > We therefore will temporarily moderate the community-discuss mailing lists starting from Friday, 24 June 2022, 18:10 UTC and until Monday 27 June 18:00 UTC when you will be informed about the new protocol. > > All emails, accepted or rejected, will be archived on the community list archive. > -- > > Kind Regards > > Eddy Kayihura M. > Chief Executive Officer > African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) Ltd. > ==== > t: +230 403 51 00 | tt: @afrinic | https://www.afrinic.net | youtube.com/afrinicmedia > ___________________________ > > Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? > Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? > Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) > > > ******************************************************************************************************************* > This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. > > ******************************************************************************************************************* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From Ben.Roberts at liquid.tech Wed Jun 22 14:22:38 2022 From: Ben.Roberts at liquid.tech (Ben Roberts) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 14:22:38 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Formal mediation In-Reply-To: References: <1818b903cb1.db9f57ad1118859.3464488880894407180@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: Hi, It is possible to postulate that AFRINIC threw the first punch buy revoking membership and resource holdings of members who relied upon those resources for their business. I'm sure all cases should be judged or mediated based on the applicable law however. Who hit first or hit back hardest probably isn't the pertinent issue. Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: Amin Dayekh Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2022 4:46:09 PM To: tech Cc: community-discuss ; members-discuss Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Formal mediation Dear AFRINIC, As a resource member in good standing, I would like to advise AFRINIC should be very cautious in dealing with the resource member who filed countless litigations against all of us. The said member obtained an ex-parte to freeze AFRINIC bank accounts. Was this to force AFRINIC to the table. They repeatedly secured multiple court injunctions to paralyze AFRINIC to its knees so that they can force AFRINIC to the mediation table. They filed injunctions to stop Members from exercising our rights to vote in our own elections and led to AFRINIC not having a full board. This was to bring AFRINIC to its knees so that they can force AFRINIC to mediation. AFRINIC, its resource members, and AFRICAN governments and civil society should all ensure that AFRINIC is not tricked by the same group. On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 2:20 PM tech > wrote: Following public speculation, Cloud Innovation can confirm that it has requested formal mediation with AFRINIC via the court. We are yet to hear back formally from AFINIC but we are hopeful that they will accept our request. The issues raised by Cloud Innovation, and other members of AFRINIC, are of global importance and sitting down to discuss the issues can only benefit the world?s internet users. We commit to confirm if AFRINIC agree to participate in our mediation but the actual mediation discussions would remain confidential. _______________________________________________ Members-Discuss mailing list Members-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ben.Roberts at liquid.tech Wed Jun 22 15:05:01 2022 From: Ben.Roberts at liquid.tech (Ben Roberts) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 15:05:01 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Formal mediation In-Reply-To: References: <1818b903cb1.db9f57ad1118859.3464488880894407180@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: Amin, PTAs stance on which RIR they allow licenced operators in Pakistan to source IPs is entirely the business of Pakistan, PTA, and licenced operators in Pakistan. They have no regulatory powers over Africa, and unless they are a paid up member of Afrinic, then they have no say or influence in this matter at hand. Kind regards. Ben Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: Amin Dayekh Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2022 5:50:56 PM To: Ben Roberts Cc: tech ; community-discuss ; members-discuss Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Formal mediation the questions that remain valid Ben, 1- Is the reason justified to get the IP resources still applicable? 2- are the ip resources still in use for that justified reason? herewith what PTA directed its members (especially about afrinic) if PTA as the telecom authority is prohibiting the use of IP resources from Afrinic, Rather especially from afrinic, how a broker is going beyond that directive? [PTA-Email (1).jpeg] On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 3:22 PM Ben Roberts wrote: Hi, It is possible to postulate that AFRINIC threw the first punch buy revoking membership and resource holdings of members who relied upon those resources for their business. I'm sure all cases should be judged or mediated based on the applicable law however. Who hit first or hit back hardest probably isn't the pertinent issue. Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: Amin Dayekh > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2022 4:46:09 PM To: tech > Cc: community-discuss >; members-discuss > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Formal mediation Dear AFRINIC, As a resource member in good standing, I would like to advise AFRINIC should be very cautious in dealing with the resource member who filed countless litigations against all of us. The said member obtained an ex-parte to freeze AFRINIC bank accounts. Was this to force AFRINIC to the table. They repeatedly secured multiple court injunctions to paralyze AFRINIC to its knees so that they can force AFRINIC to the mediation table. They filed injunctions to stop Members from exercising our rights to vote in our own elections and led to AFRINIC not having a full board. This was to bring AFRINIC to its knees so that they can force AFRINIC to mediation. AFRINIC, its resource members, and AFRICAN governments and civil society should all ensure that AFRINIC is not tricked by the same group. On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 2:20 PM tech > wrote: Following public speculation, Cloud Innovation can confirm that it has requested formal mediation with AFRINIC via the court. We are yet to hear back formally from AFINIC but we are hopeful that they will accept our request. The issues raised by Cloud Innovation, and other members of AFRINIC, are of global importance and sitting down to discuss the issues can only benefit the world?s internet users. We commit to confirm if AFRINIC agree to participate in our mediation but the actual mediation discussions would remain confidential. _______________________________________________ Members-Discuss mailing list Members-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PTA-Email (1).jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 82211 bytes Desc: PTA-Email (1).jpeg URL: From tech at cloudinnovation.org Tue Jun 28 18:40:19 2022 From: tech at cloudinnovation.org (tech) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 22:40:19 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC silent on mediation Message-ID: <181ab9d42c9.fd8ad68d2572449.5257984728705955459@cloudinnovation.org> Cloud Innovation committed to confirm if AFRINIC agreed to participate in our offer for private mediation.? The deadline for AFRINIC to respond passed last night . Unfortunately, AFRINIC ignored the non-conditional offer to enter into confidential negotiations to settle the issues subject to on-going litigation and therefore we have concluded rejected our offer of mediation. The issues raised by Cloud Innovation, and other members of AFRINIC, are of global importance and sitting down to discuss the issues would have only benefited the world?s internet users. In any dispute, it is normal for willing parties to enter mediation. Cloud Innovation were disappointed that AFRNIC did not have the decency to even acknowledge our open and transparent offer. Whatever your view on the issues at hand, the failure to agree to mediation illustrates a total failure in leadership, transparency and ethics. It shows contempt of members, a reputation, and the spirit of the law. We are very disappointed to have to share this news with you, but do so in the spirit of transparency and openness. Our full press release can be found at link below:https://cloudinnovation.org/press-release4.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hjul.paul at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 19:32:19 2022 From: hjul.paul at gmail.com (Paul Hjul) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 21:32:19 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Most disastrous distraction Message-ID: I am quite perplexed (and like Andrew am nauseated) by what is perhaps the most disturbing distraction. Ultimately it is quite clear that this entire exchange is not doing anything to help with getting Afrinic back on track. So with the hope to steer back to the crux of things. Various parties and organizations who have the view that a functioning legitimate Afrinic is a good thing have been taking steps to make it possible for the Company to get on track. As a result of these steps it was reliably indicated to me that at least one litigating party had decided to again present court sanctioned mediation as something they were willing to engage in. Predictably as soon as the suggestion of the opportunity to get the organization functioning in a proper and rule driven manner was made a predictable chorus of individuals who try to control the organization and who patently would rather see Afrinic destroyed than not under their control piped up. This is an old and worn tactic that brings the Company into endless trouble. Unfortunately until enough resource members are prepared to accept that the rot at the core of Afrinic cannot easily be papered over and every time it has been papered over it has festered and become all the more pus filled. The patient can longer just have a bandage wrapped over in the hope that the sepsis will only cause sickness and not death. Sadly rather than the ugliness emboldening individuals with responsibility within each member to stand up and be counted it is likely to cause people to fully disengage as part of protecting their own mental health. Any changes to the community standards for posting on this mailing list and any selective enforcement is only going to foment further problems for the organization. It is a catch 22 but quite simply draconian measures won't solve the crisis. It is more of a little bit of a stretch to associate Eddy with the sympathies of any individual on the basis of them having communications or having a photograph taken with that person. But a little bit of a stretch is still within the realm of engagement. The response has been positively vile. Resource members don't individually have the power to remove or force the resignation of an Afrinic employee or a director but they certainly have the right to call for a resignation, they have the right to demand answers. One resource member doesn't speak for all resource members (no matter how much certain individuals who have repeatedly brought toxicity and tribalism into the mailing lists) but as a simple matter of rhetoric when you say "members have the right" or the like you aren't asserting that you are speaking for all members, you are asserting that I am pleased that Eddy has personally recognized the conflict of interest but am wholly unsatisfied that the "governance committee" that so profoundly steered the ship into the board vacancy crisis is going to be making calls. Moreover the sort of powers and actions are dependent on there being a functioning Board. Three directors (one of whom is executive, one of whom would be chair and one would chair the audit committee) simply cannot functionally govern and supervise a company with Afrinic's structure, bylaws and nature. It is quite simply necessary for The NRO and other RIRs have implored that the community cause the resolution of issues through non-adversarial coming together initiatives (which mediation is an example of). Nothing in their plea suggests doing so in violation of the bylaws of Afrinic or the relevant legal framework but it seems that this plea is being misused by the cancerous faction of Afrinic as license to jettisone a rules based system. Sadly I have not heard anything further as to the court annexed mediation and it seems that Afrinic has rejected the opportunity to do what the other RIRs are imploring it to do. My own conclusion, reached some time back, and due to the manner in which Afrinic engaged with Crystal Web has been that the efforts of the NRS provide the best counter-balance in the partisanized environment that is Afrinic. My personal political inclinations are against indirect election party approaches - even when I am a member of a party it is a party advancing individual action and I have done work for different political organizations (usually it entails provided I think this inclination is one found widely within what historically is the community. Ultimately however once a party machine is in full swing only a party type counterbalance will prevent mayhem. There are ways and means and exercises of good faith that can reduce and dismantle the partisan mess but my reading of political history has been that when there is a party exercising power illicitly that not only undermines your legitimate interests but when challenged feels no compuncture is resorting to hate speech the time to to organize politically arises and the time to reach across the aisle requires the emergence of an aisle first. Tellingly despite Owen having taken a rather left field and fiercely oppositional stance towards the NRS there has not been any ugliness towards him from anybody other than those trying to tie him to NRS. The evidence is that while you can choose whether to support the NRS and its objectives (or whether to sign its petitions and not join) and while there is a slick (and sometimes in my view daft) marketing and recruitment campaign, not joining doesn't result in you getting clubbed about or subjected to abuse. I fear people who depart from the rot party will find themselves receiving accusations of being "un-African" and a raft of ethnically and racially charged abuse gets thrust upon them. The NRS has positioned itself as a political party it does all the stupid things political parties do and they do those things because of how partisan structures operate at their best. Partisanship and frankly tribalism predate the NRS by a long way and unlike the stupid but still discourse inducing things a proper functioning party in a democratic context does the behaviour of the rot brigade is a constant problem. I fear some of the foreign observers who comment occasionally take comfort in a position of naivety and are more afraid of the toxicity at Afrinic leading to problems in their own backyards than realizing how much damage has already been done. I only hope that the next engagement from certain individuals will be (to put it unkindly) less naive. It is very clear though that the distraction is the point. In all the ugliness the energy to do the right thing has been evaporated. I don't know whether reforming the mailing lists will fix anything. What I do know is an opportunity for Afrinic's three directors to break off from the faction of rot and open dialogue with resource members more widely has now been broken. I feel a sense of guilt because the real venom of the last few days was brought forward by members of the party of rot as an orchestrated reaction to the possibility that Afrinic was considering the mediation option. This is an emotional rather than rational guilt because I objectively know that the misconduct and venom would happen when the perpetrators needed to resort to the same but knowing rationally something doesn't make me any less depressed to see just how much pus there is that needs to be cleaned out. It may be a bit of naivety on my part, after all the Akplogan "outburst" (if I am not mistaken those comms were on Afren so not a location under Afrinic's now exercised moderating trend). I think many people are past anger, and the problem is that outright apathy is the end result. I am really hoping somebody - preferably an organized body containing many rational members - will step up to the breach and call on their members to speak up and get this Company off the path which it has been steered onto. I don't see it being possible without both approaching the courts and holding an SGMM with an election of candidates not tainted by the previous nomcom and with a credible nominations process that doesn't brazenly align to put candidates supported by the rot in a position to proceed. I'd like to believe that an ability to sit down and get a plan of action exists but I am afraid this is wishful thinking. Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arnaud.amelina at togorer.tg Tue Jun 28 19:18:05 2022 From: arnaud.amelina at togorer.tg (arnaud.amelina at togorer.tg) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 19:18:05 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] AFRINIC silent on mediation In-Reply-To: <181ab9d42c9.fd8ad68d2572449.5257984728705955459@cloudinnovation.org> References: <181ab9d42c9.fd8ad68d2572449.5257984728705955459@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: <2847e5b8ca0c50c2dc427014211b597b@togorer.tg> Humm ! Afrinic ne devrait m?me pas r?agir ? ces genres d'invitation. C'est trop facile de gifler une personne et apr?s de l'inviter ? une quelconque m?diation. Cloud Innovation connaissait tr?s bien le chemin de la m?diation, avant de d?cider unilat?ralement d'ester en justice une organisation qui lui donnait ? manger, Parce qu'elle comptait sur ses muscles non ? Eh bien qu'elle aille jusqu'au bout, on verra qui gagnera. C'est trop facile apr?s avoir bloquer le compte d'AFRINIC avec pour objectif claire de d?clencher la faillite d'AFRINIC et de revenir aujourd'hui demander une quelconque m?diation. Les Dommages et Int?r?ts engendr?s par votre action seront pay?s jusqu'au dernier centime. J'invite le Board et le Staff d'AFRINIC ? tenir bon jusqu'au bout, la victoire est au bout de l'effort. Bon courage ? l'?quipe juridique d'AFRINIC, vous ?tiez dans votre coin tranquille quand on est venu vous provoquer, alors continuez ils savaient ce qu'ils faisaient, mais comme ?a va ?chouer ils reviennent demander une m?diation en qualifiant les gens de manque de "leadership, de transparence et d'?thique" tout ce qui les caract?rise eux-m?me. Je ne suis pas contre une m?diation quand il y a un conflit, mais ce temps a ?t? longtemps d?pass? dans le cas de CI. Car en Afrique nous avons un Adage qui dit : "M?me souris saoul?e, conna?t carrefour du Chat", ils ont os?, ils n'ont qu'? assumer jusqu'au bout. Cordialement. Arnaud On 2022-06-28 18:40, tech wrote: > Cloud Innovation committed to confirm if AFRINIC agreed to participate > in our offer for private mediation. The deadline for AFRINIC to > respond passed last night . Unfortunately, AFRINIC ignored the > non-conditional offer to enter into confidential negotiations to > settle the issues subject to on-going litigation and therefore we have > concluded rejected our offer of mediation. > > The issues raised by Cloud Innovation, and other members of AFRINIC, > are of global importance and sitting down to discuss the issues would > have only benefited the world?s internet users. In any dispute, it > is normal for willing parties to enter mediation. > > Cloud Innovation were disappointed that AFRNIC did not have the > decency to even acknowledge our open and transparent offer. Whatever > your view on the issues at hand, the failure to agree to mediation > illustrates a total failure in leadership, transparency and ethics. It > shows contempt of members, a reputation, and the spirit of the law. We > are very disappointed to have to share this news with you, but do so > in the spirit of transparency and openness. > > Our full press release can be found at link > below:https://cloudinnovation.org/press-release4.html > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss From jcurran at arin.net Thu Jun 30 21:55:43 2022 From: jcurran at arin.net (John Curran) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 21:55:43 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC silent on mediation In-Reply-To: <181ab9d42c9.fd8ad68d2572449.5257984728705955459@cloudinnovation.org> References: <181ab9d42c9.fd8ad68d2572449.5257984728705955459@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: <29194179-385E-4D44-96C3-CDA747F330B2@arin.net> On 28 Jun 2022, at 2:40 PM, tech > wrote: ... Unfortunately, AFRINIC ignored the non-conditional offer to enter into confidential negotiations to settle the issues subject to on-going litigation and therefore we have concluded rejected our offer of mediation. Dear Cloud Innovation ? For clarity?s sake, could you please identify whether the offer for mediation was to enter into confidential negotiations to settle _all_ of issues subject to on-going litigation, or simply a subset of the outstanding issues? (Your statement above could be read either way.) Thanks, /John John Curran President and CEO American Registry for Internet Numbers -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Wed Jun 29 16:59:46 2022 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2022 09:59:46 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Mediation Message-ID: I am informed that AFRINIC let the offer of mediation from Cloud Innovation expire without response. Owen