From owen at delong.com Fri Jul 2 09:49:18 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 02:49:18 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM In-Reply-To: <54039702-37B2-429C-9377-A95EAA9E719E@gmail.com> References: <17a3d21fad1.bd552ba1206303.7060355078460728919@africaoncloud.net> <22919.1624534197@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <7DFE61F1-1FDE-4F53-AC41-B95D4CB4A9F7@delong.com> <54039702-37B2-429C-9377-A95EAA9E719E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2C43F55B-7352-4083-8674-EF3A07BB4A1D@delong.com> > On Jun 29, 2021, at 03:19 , Mike Silber wrote: > > Hi Owen > >> On 29 Jun 2021, at 11:30, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: >> > > In your hypothetical example > >> So let?s assume that a company operates a residential ISP in Botswana and also happens to be a registered broker trading addresses within policy in the ARIN, RIPE, and APNIC regions. >> >> Are you saying that such an ISP should be banned from being an AFRINIC member merely because of their other business activities in other regions unrelated to their presence in Africa as an ISP? >> >> This seems like a really bad idea from my perspective as I think AFRINIC would likely be subject to several serious legal challenges over such a situation. IANAL, but there are lawyers on this list and I invite them to comment if they don?t think such a prohibition would violate the companies act and most anti-trust regulatory frameworks in most countries. > > So, IAAL. I cannot see the basis for the legal challenge you are suggesting. I cannot see how such a prohibition would violate the Mauritian Companies Act - in particular because resource members are not members of the company, but exist in a grey area being members of the organisation, but not the company. In addition, seeing as no resource members can become members of the company - a prohibition on an entity becoming a resource member (or being expelled as a resource member) cannot be contrary to the Companies Act. So if a membership organization that is open to all service providers in the region is rejecting/terminating memberships solely on the base of their involvement in a particular legal second line of business outside the region and doing so to the detriment of their ability to provide the existing services in the region, you don?t believe that would be a form of tortious interference? Interesting. I defer to your greater expertise in this area, of course, but I find it surprising. > The Mauritian competition framework does not provide for extraterritorial jurisdiction - so I fail to see what basis there would be for any potential anti-trust action? This makes me think, perhaps you misunderstand my example, or seized upon a less than perfect detail vs. the intended concept. Let?s try it a different way. Let?s say that there are two ISPs operating in Mauritius. One of them also operates an IP Brokerage in the Netherlands trading in allocations/assignments issued by RIPE-NCC and operating entirely within the RIPE-NCC policies. Would you still say that it?s legal OK for AFRINIC to reject/terminate the membership of the one operating the brokerage in the Netherlands on that basis? > IMO the only action would be to ensure that the company complies with the Companies Act (and I don?t see how that would be an issue) and acts in accordance with its bylaws. > > In my view, the bylaws (read with validly passed policy) could validly restrict membership from entities that do not adhere to the policy / bylaws. It may not be practical or useful, but provided it follows proper process - I cannot see any basis for legal challenge. Very interesting. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Fri Jul 2 10:35:26 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 03:35:26 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM In-Reply-To: <8494.1625001016@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <8494.1625001016@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <274D58A3-DE28-42F7-9CD1-C6E87EBF84B4@delong.com> > On Jun 29, 2021, at 14:10 , Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > In message , > Owen DeLong wrote: > >> I don't even oppose such a policy, personally, if that's >> what the community wants. I do think it would be short-sighted, likely >> unenforceable... > > I believe that LACNIC has a policy that IP resources granted must be > deployed at least 50% within the region. > > I am not aware of them having any special difficulties enforcing that. I was speaking of a policy providing an absolute prohibition against out of region use (or near absolute anyway), say equivalent to 5.4.4 et. seq in the soft landing policy. > There may be reasons, perhaps even good ones, why such a policy would > not be appropriate within the AFRINIC region, but "enforceability" or > the lack thereof would not seem gto be one of them. Of a 50% policy, probably not, but of an outright ban? I think it would become a nightmare or a twisty little maze of selective enforcement at best. Owen From silber.mike at gmail.com Fri Jul 2 11:12:47 2021 From: silber.mike at gmail.com (Mike Silber) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 13:12:47 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM In-Reply-To: <2C43F55B-7352-4083-8674-EF3A07BB4A1D@delong.com> References: <17a3d21fad1.bd552ba1206303.7060355078460728919@africaoncloud.net> <22919.1624534197@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <7DFE61F1-1FDE-4F53-AC41-B95D4CB4A9F7@delong.com> <54039702-37B2-429C-9377-A95EAA9E719E@gmail.com> <2C43F55B-7352-4083-8674-EF3A07BB4A1D@delong.com> Message-ID: Hi Owen > On 2 Jul 2021, at 11:49, Owen DeLong wrote: > > > So if a membership organization that is open to all service providers in the region is rejecting/terminating memberships solely on the base of their involvement in a particular legal second line of business outside the region and doing so to the detriment of their ability to provide the existing services in the region, you don?t believe that would be a form of tortious interference? Interesting. I defer to your greater expertise in this area, of course, but I find it surprising. > I think you are missing a key component, I am not sure if intentionally or not? Membership organisations almost universally have a constitution / by-laws / criteria for membership / expected terms of behaviour. I am not aware of any country?s laws that allow one to insist on membership of an organisation - without also undertaking to abide by the relevant constitution / by-laws / criteria for membership / expected terms of behaviour. If the rules provide for the eventuality you describe and IF proper process is followed (note the caveat), i see no issue with membership being rejected / terminated. It would be the equivalent of rejecting / terminating a membership if the (prospective) member does not pay the membership fees. My understanding is that for there to be tortuous interference, there must be a tort - which involves WRONGFULNESS. If the actions of the organisation are not wrongful, there is no tort and thus the consequences to the harmed party are irrelevant. If it wanted the benefits of membership - it should have played by the rules ?.IF those rules are validly enforced. >> The Mauritian competition framework does not provide for extraterritorial jurisdiction - so I fail to see what basis there would be for any potential anti-trust action? > > This makes me think, perhaps you misunderstand my example, or seized upon a less than perfect detail vs. the intended concept. > No I didn?t but let?s try again. > Let?s try it a different way. > > Let?s say that there are two ISPs operating in Mauritius. One of them also operates an IP Brokerage in the Netherlands trading in allocations/assignments issued by RIPE-NCC and operating entirely within the RIPE-NCC policies. > > Would you still say that it?s legal OK for AFRINIC to reject/terminate the membership of the one operating the brokerage in the Netherlands on that basis? I am not sure why there needs to be two ISPs and what the relevance is of the second ISP. Above you were arguing it is a tort, now you are arguing anti-competitive action. Anti-competitive conduct seems a huge stretch when the vertical relationship between AfriNIC and members operates on a not for profit basis and is not designed to favour any one or more party - only to ensure compliance with a set of rules. Would refusing service to a member that does not pay its fees be anti-competitive? If AfriNIC rejects/terminates membership of only one member ?. when there are others behaving in the same way, then this conduct would more likely be a breach of by-laws and inequitable application of the rules, rather than anti-competitive. I don?t see it as being anti-competitive as I fail to see the basis to argue a lessening of competition ?. unless you have a conspiracy theory that is beyond me. Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Fri Jul 2 11:36:14 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 04:36:14 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM In-Reply-To: References: <17a3d21fad1.bd552ba1206303.7060355078460728919@africaoncloud.net> <22919.1624534197@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <7DFE61F1-1FDE-4F53-AC41-B95D4CB4A9F7@delong.com> <54039702-37B2-429C-9377-A95EAA9E719E@gmail.com> <2C43F55B-7352-4083-8674-EF3A07BB4A1D@delong.com> Message-ID: <0A462DFD-3FA2-4B78-B064-95C12B6EA2E6@delong.com> > On Jul 2, 2021, at 04:12 , Mike Silber wrote: > > Hi Owen > >> On 2 Jul 2021, at 11:49, Owen DeLong > wrote: >> > >> >> So if a membership organization that is open to all service providers in the region is rejecting/terminating memberships solely on the base of their involvement in a particular legal second line of business outside the region and doing so to the detriment of their ability to provide the existing services in the region, you don?t believe that would be a form of tortious interference? Interesting. I defer to your greater expertise in this area, of course, but I find it surprising. >> > I think you are missing a key component, I am not sure if intentionally or not? Membership organisations almost universally have a constitution / by-laws / criteria for membership / expected terms of behaviour. I am not aware of any country?s laws that allow one to insist on membership of an organisation - without also undertaking to abide by the relevant constitution / by-laws / criteria for membership / expected terms of behaviour. In a case where a membership organization is the gatekeeper for industry self-regulation and/or for acquiring resources necessary to engage in a given industry, there are (at least in the US where I am more familiar with the legal framework) legal prohibitions against various forms of membership discrimination. In the US, such organizations are usually referred to as ?trade associations? and organized under IRS 501(c)(6). A classic example would be something like an association of refineries that refused to sell gasoline to a particular brand of stations. > If the rules provide for the eventuality you describe and IF proper process is followed (note the caveat), i see no issue with membership being rejected / terminated. It would be the equivalent of rejecting / terminating a membership if the (prospective) member does not pay the membership fees. Interesting. > My understanding is that for there to be tortuous interference, there must be a tort - which involves WRONGFULNESS. If the actions of the organisation are not wrongful, there is no tort and thus the consequences to the harmed party are irrelevant. If it wanted the benefits of membership - it should have played by the rules ?.IF those rules are validly enforced. Wouldn?t preventing an organization from acquiring resources to engage in legitimate business on equal terms with its competitors on the basis of it engaging in an equally legitimate action elsewhere in the world be considered wrongful? Certainly it is injurious to the business in question, certainly damages are easily provable in such a situation. I don?t know about the situation in Africa, I admit, but at least in the US, there are definitely restrictions on how far rules can go in making such an organization selective. Obviously the most classic examples are things like a country club can (no longer since some time in the 1970s) reject a member based on the color of their skin. However, in general, a trade organization that is constructed in such a way as to clearly exclude members on some arbitrary basis not necessary to preserve the good order of the trade association would be considered anti-competitive in the US most of the time. (don?t get me started on the current makeup of the US federal bench, especially in light of today?s anti-democracy ruling from the top bench in the land). >>> The Mauritian competition framework does not provide for extraterritorial jurisdiction - so I fail to see what basis there would be for any potential anti-trust action? >> >> This makes me think, perhaps you misunderstand my example, or seized upon a less than perfect detail vs. the intended concept. >> > No I didn?t but let?s try again. > >> Let?s try it a different way. >> >> Let?s say that there are two ISPs operating in Mauritius. One of them also operates an IP Brokerage in the Netherlands trading in allocations/assignments issued by RIPE-NCC and operating entirely within the RIPE-NCC policies. >> >> Would you still say that it?s legal OK for AFRINIC to reject/terminate the membership of the one operating the brokerage in the Netherlands on that basis? > > I am not sure why there needs to be two ISPs and what the relevance is of the second ISP. Above you were arguing it is a tort, now you are arguing anti-competitive action. Above, I was arguing both as a possibility (and I still am), but you seemed to sidestep my anti-competitive argument above based strictly on the extra-territorial issue, so I put it into an intra-territorial context. There need to be two ISPs because in order for it to be discrimination, you usually need to have a party that isn?t discriminated. > Anti-competitive conduct seems a huge stretch when the vertical relationship between AfriNIC and members operates on a not for profit basis and is not designed to favour any one or more party - only to ensure compliance with a set of rules. Would refusing service to a member that does not pay its fees be anti-competitive? If AfriNIC rejects/terminates membership of only one member ?. when there are others behaving in the same way, then this conduct would more likely be a breach of by-laws and inequitable application of the rules, rather than anti-competitive. But if you are favoring parties that are not brokers entirely outside of the AFRINIC service region strictly on that basis, I think there?s a valid argument that such an exclusion is arbitrary and capricious which then becomes a harmful discrimination and can (AIUI) be used as evidence that the trade association is being structured to provide a competitive advantage to a subset of otherwise eligible members. > I don?t see it as being anti-competitive as I fail to see the basis to argue a lessening of competition ?. unless you have a conspiracy theory that is beyond me. In the US, at least, it?s not just lessening of competition, but creating ?unfair? barriers to competition that could run afoul of the Sherman act. Admittedly, precedent wanders greatly in this area and recent precedents have wondered almost as far as ever towards taking the teeth out of the Sherman act, but that pendulum seems to have started somewhat of a return trajectory (though the current 6/3 supreme court is a bit of a wildcard on that). For example, Microsoft lost (at least initially) their case and was convicted of violating the act because their tight integration of Internet Explorer into Windows created an unfair barrier to entry for other browsers. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Fri Jul 2 11:42:47 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 04:42:47 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM In-Reply-To: <92FD5D58-716C-4C8D-8CA8-69D048830201@pch.net> References: <17a3d21fad1.bd552ba1206303.7060355078460728919@africaoncloud.net> <22919.1624534197@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <7DFE61F1-1FDE-4F53-AC41-B95D4CB4A9F7@delong.com> <54039702-37B2-429C-9377-A95EAA9E719E@gmail.com> <2C43F55B-7352-4083-8674-EF3A07BB4A1D@delong.com> <92FD5D58-716C-4C8D-8CA8-69D048830201@pch.net> Message-ID: <3B5DEE07-3D4A-46A6-8D2E-8E3AD310E4D6@delong.com> > On Jul 2, 2021, at 04:23 , Bill Woodcock wrote: > >> On 2 Jul 2021, at 11:49, Owen DeLong wrote: >> Let?s say that [an ISP in Mauritius] also operates an IP Brokerage in the Netherlands trading in allocations/assignments issued by RIPE-NCC and operating entirely within the RIPE-NCC policies. >> >> Would you still say that it?s legal OK for AFRINIC to reject/terminate the membership of the one operating the brokerage in the Netherlands on that basis? > > I believe the point that Mike is making (which I agree with, I don?t think he needs me to reinterpret his already-clear explanation of his thoughts, I?m just registering agreement in my own words) is that, yes, an association can reject the membership of anyone they feel like, particularly if they do so on clear, objective, and transparent grounds. > > That?s the difference between an association and a class. The class of ?ISPs in Mauritius? includes all ISPs in Mauritius. An association of ISPs in Mauritius can include, or not include, anyone? That?s what an association is: a group of parties who freely choose to associate with each other. If someone can be forced upon them, it?s no longer a free choice to associate, so it?s no longer an association. > > What, may I ask, is your point in arguing that AfriNIC should not be able to define its own membership? I think that, rather than arguing that they cannot define their membership, I am arguing that if they were to do so on such arbitrary and capricious lines as whether or not said organization is also an address broker in distant lands doesn?t meet the ?clear, objective and transparent? test very well. Assuming that even in the simple case of a single organization, it does meet the test, then one has to consider the following easy derivatives: An organization which happens to have a wholly owned subsidiary that is a broker An organization which isn?t a broker, but happens to be the wholly owned subsidiary of a broker An organization which is owned by an entity which also owns such a broker etc. For any ?clear, objective, and transparent? version of such a prohibition, I?m pretty sure it?s relatively trivial to design a structure that is just grey enough to become ?shaded, subjective, and translucent at best?. Owen From silber.mike at gmail.com Fri Jul 2 12:17:32 2021 From: silber.mike at gmail.com (Mike Silber) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 14:17:32 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM In-Reply-To: <0A462DFD-3FA2-4B78-B064-95C12B6EA2E6@delong.com> References: <17a3d21fad1.bd552ba1206303.7060355078460728919@africaoncloud.net> <22919.1624534197@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <7DFE61F1-1FDE-4F53-AC41-B95D4CB4A9F7@delong.com> <54039702-37B2-429C-9377-A95EAA9E719E@gmail.com> <2C43F55B-7352-4083-8674-EF3A07BB4A1D@delong.com> <0A462DFD-3FA2-4B78-B064-95C12B6EA2E6@delong.com> Message-ID: <7EFC10CA-9658-4F36-B210-DBBD7575A6A1@gmail.com> Hi Owen This is not intended as an excursus on Mauritian competition law (on which I am not an expert either, however I have taken the time to actually read the Act). I was simply pointing our that your usually sharp mind has tended to wonder into a multitude of logical fallacies when it comes to the realms of the law. I would be quite OK if you just indicated a concern in relation to potential legal issues. However you were very specific and IMO without any justification. That comes across to me like fear mongering - hic sunt dracones (here be dragons) (or maybe here be lawyers ?.?). I was simply trying to point out some of the absurdities. Your email below now attempts additional mental gymnastics to argue by analogy, mixing jurisdictions, ignoring principles of conflicts of laws and worst of all - trying to argue to conclusions bases on flawed premises. AfriNIC is NOT a trade association, AfriNIC is not a profit making enterprise and AfriNIC is not a country club. Those analogies do not work. You then compound this mixing issues of horizontal competitive relationships and vertical competitive relationships. I really don?t see any benefit to wondering down the meandering garden paths of your legal thought experiments and addressing or refuting each one. You (or more likely your client) have no doubt consulted with excellent Mauritian counsel regarding its rights. I think my point has been made. Your warning regarding possible legal implications of a policy intervention is noted (though likely to be exaggerated). I am going to move on now and I suggest you do the same. Mike > On 2 Jul 2021, at 13:36, Owen DeLong wrote: > > > >> On Jul 2, 2021, at 04:12 , Mike Silber > wrote: >> >> Hi Owen >> >>> On 2 Jul 2021, at 11:49, Owen DeLong > wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> So if a membership organization that is open to all service providers in the region is rejecting/terminating memberships solely on the base of their involvement in a particular legal second line of business outside the region and doing so to the detriment of their ability to provide the existing services in the region, you don?t believe that would be a form of tortious interference? Interesting. I defer to your greater expertise in this area, of course, but I find it surprising. >>> >> I think you are missing a key component, I am not sure if intentionally or not? Membership organisations almost universally have a constitution / by-laws / criteria for membership / expected terms of behaviour. I am not aware of any country?s laws that allow one to insist on membership of an organisation - without also undertaking to abide by the relevant constitution / by-laws / criteria for membership / expected terms of behaviour. > > In a case where a membership organization is the gatekeeper for industry self-regulation and/or for acquiring resources necessary to engage in a given industry, there are (at least in the US where I am more familiar with the legal framework) legal prohibitions against various forms of membership discrimination. > > In the US, such organizations are usually referred to as ?trade associations? and organized under IRS 501(c)(6). > > A classic example would be something like an association of refineries that refused to sell gasoline to a particular brand of stations. > >> If the rules provide for the eventuality you describe and IF proper process is followed (note the caveat), i see no issue with membership being rejected / terminated. It would be the equivalent of rejecting / terminating a membership if the (prospective) member does not pay the membership fees. > > Interesting. > >> My understanding is that for there to be tortuous interference, there must be a tort - which involves WRONGFULNESS. If the actions of the organisation are not wrongful, there is no tort and thus the consequences to the harmed party are irrelevant. If it wanted the benefits of membership - it should have played by the rules ?.IF those rules are validly enforced. > > Wouldn?t preventing an organization from acquiring resources to engage in legitimate business on equal terms with its competitors on the basis of it engaging in an equally legitimate action elsewhere in the world be considered wrongful? Certainly it is injurious to the business in question, certainly damages are easily provable in such a situation. > > I don?t know about the situation in Africa, I admit, but at least in the US, there are definitely restrictions on how far rules can go in making such an organization selective. > > Obviously the most classic examples are things like a country club can (no longer since some time in the 1970s) reject a member based on the color of their skin. > > However, in general, a trade organization that is constructed in such a way as to clearly exclude members on some arbitrary basis not necessary to preserve the good order of the trade association would be considered anti-competitive in the US most of the time. (don?t get me started on the current makeup of the US federal bench, especially in light of today?s anti-democracy ruling from the top bench in the land). > >>>> The Mauritian competition framework does not provide for extraterritorial jurisdiction - so I fail to see what basis there would be for any potential anti-trust action? >>> >>> This makes me think, perhaps you misunderstand my example, or seized upon a less than perfect detail vs. the intended concept. >>> >> No I didn?t but let?s try again. >> >>> Let?s try it a different way. >>> >>> Let?s say that there are two ISPs operating in Mauritius. One of them also operates an IP Brokerage in the Netherlands trading in allocations/assignments issued by RIPE-NCC and operating entirely within the RIPE-NCC policies. >>> >>> Would you still say that it?s legal OK for AFRINIC to reject/terminate the membership of the one operating the brokerage in the Netherlands on that basis? >> >> I am not sure why there needs to be two ISPs and what the relevance is of the second ISP. Above you were arguing it is a tort, now you are arguing anti-competitive action. > > Above, I was arguing both as a possibility (and I still am), but you seemed to sidestep my anti-competitive argument above based strictly on the extra-territorial issue, so I put it into an intra-territorial context. > > There need to be two ISPs because in order for it to be discrimination, you usually need to have a party that isn?t discriminated. > >> Anti-competitive conduct seems a huge stretch when the vertical relationship between AfriNIC and members operates on a not for profit basis and is not designed to favour any one or more party - only to ensure compliance with a set of rules. Would refusing service to a member that does not pay its fees be anti-competitive? If AfriNIC rejects/terminates membership of only one member ?. when there are others behaving in the same way, then this conduct would more likely be a breach of by-laws and inequitable application of the rules, rather than anti-competitive. > > But if you are favoring parties that are not brokers entirely outside of the AFRINIC service region strictly on that basis, I think there?s a valid argument that such an exclusion is arbitrary and capricious which then becomes a harmful discrimination and can (AIUI) be used as evidence that the trade association is being structured to provide a competitive advantage to a subset of otherwise eligible members. > >> I don?t see it as being anti-competitive as I fail to see the basis to argue a lessening of competition ?. unless you have a conspiracy theory that is beyond me. > > In the US, at least, it?s not just lessening of competition, but creating ?unfair? barriers to competition that could run afoul of the Sherman act. Admittedly, precedent wanders greatly in this area and recent precedents have wondered almost as far as ever towards taking the teeth out of the Sherman act, but that pendulum seems to have started somewhat of a return trajectory (though the current 6/3 supreme court is a bit of a wildcard on that). > > For example, Microsoft lost (at least initially) their case and was convicted of violating the act because their tight integration of Internet Explorer into Windows created an unfair barrier to entry for other browsers. > > Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net Fri Jul 2 12:24:05 2021 From: paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net (Paul Wollner) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2021 14:24:05 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM In-Reply-To: <4424CF11-A39B-4659-8E07-FE28BE9E3E4A@afrinic.net> References: <4424CF11-A39B-4659-8E07-FE28BE9E3E4A@afrinic.net> Message-ID: <17a672d13a0.10544ab7440171.7359974942069971130@africaoncloud.net> Mr. Kayihura, I refer to your email dated 30 June 2021. In it, you claim that Questions 1 to 3 were addressed during the open mic session held on 4 June 2021. The reality is that none of those questions were satisfactorily answered. They were addressed to the extent that the questions were acknowledged, then an attempt was made to obfuscate them and answer different questions while pretending to answer the questions asked, then a claim was made that the questions would be answered at a later date. In reality, no such answer has been forthcoming from AFRINIC. We recognize that these questions are likely inconvenient and come at what is almost certainly an inopportune time to be asking. Nonetheless, these are valid questions and as a resource member, we feel that we are being held at unfair disadvantage if AFRINIC will not provide a clear and direct answer to each of the questions about how it interprets policies in these areas. There?s too much at stake to allow AFRINIC staff to simply make it up as they go a long. We need a public commitment to the official interpretation of these areas of potential ambiguity in the current policy regime. As to the fourth item, while it is not our intent to micro-manage AFRINIC staff decisions, it is our conclusion that even if Madhvi did not actively participate in the fraudulent resource registrations and embezzlement, she surely must have either turned a blind eye (aiding and abetting) or she failed to notice it which at best displays a level of incompetence and failure to meet her duty of care in such a position. In summary, we renew our request for factual, reliable, direct answers to each of the queries and request that AFRINIC eschew further obfuscation and sophistry in the process. Thank you. Paul Wollner ---- On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 13:04:19 +0200 Eddy Kayihura wrote ---- Mr Wollner, I refer to your email dated 24 June 2021. Questions 1 to 3 were addressed during the open mic session held on 4 June 2021 and we undertook an action to organise a webinar within 2 months to discuss with the community the definition of ?need-based? in the AFRINIC policies and bylaws. We are delighted to see that the discussion amongst the community has already started. Regarding question 4, we cannot penalise a staff member unless we find concrete proof of their involvement in the misappropriation of the IP resources. As of now, we do not have such evidence on any of AFRINIC?s current staff members. The appropriate channel for such inquiry or complaint is to submit it via our https://afrinic.net/whistleblowing platform.? Regards, Eddy Kayihura Chief Executive Officer, African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) ????????????????????. M. Wollner, Je me r?f?re ? votre courriel du 24 juin 2021. Les questions 1 ? 3 ont ?t? abord?es lors de la session 'open mic' qui s'est tenue le 4 juin 2021 et nous avons entrepris une action visant ? organiser un webinaire dans un d?lai de 2 mois afin de discuter avec la communaut? de la d?finition de "need-based" dans les politiques et les statuts d'AFRINIC. Nous sommes ravis de voir que la discussion au sein de la communaut? a d?j? commenc?. En ce qui concerne la question 4, nous ne pouvons pas p?naliser un membre du personnel ? moins de trouver des preuves concr?tes de son implication dans la manipulation non autoris?e des ressources IP. A ce jour, nous n'avons pas de telles preuves sur aucun des membres actuels du personnel d'AFRINIC. Le canal appropri? pour une telle requ?te ou plainte est de la soumettre via notre plateforme de https://afrinic.net/whistleblowing. Cordialement, Eddy Kayihura Directeur g?n?ral, African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) _______________________________________________ RPD mailing list RPD at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From abscoco at gmail.com Fri Jul 2 15:50:45 2021 From: abscoco at gmail.com (Sylvain Baya) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 16:50:45 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM In-Reply-To: <3B5DEE07-3D4A-46A6-8D2E-8E3AD310E4D6@delong.com> References: <17a3d21fad1.bd552ba1206303.7060355078460728919@africaoncloud.net> <22919.1624534197@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <7DFE61F1-1FDE-4F53-AC41-B95D4CB4A9F7@delong.com> <54039702-37B2-429C-9377-A95EAA9E719E@gmail.com> <2C43F55B-7352-4083-8674-EF3A07BB4A1D@delong.com> <92FD5D58-716C-4C8D-8CA8-69D048830201@pch.net> <3B5DEE07-3D4A-46A6-8D2E-8E3AD310E4D6@delong.com> Message-ID: Dear AfriNIC's Community, Hope this email finds you in good health! Le ven. 2 juil. 2021 12:43 PM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> a ?crit : > > Hi Owen, Thanks for your email, brother! > > [...] > > Assuming that even in the simple case of a single organization, it does > meet the test, then one has to consider the following easy derivatives: > > ...interesting! > An organization which happens to have a wholly owned subsidiary > that is a broker > Questions: ~?~ ?1] Would that org be bound to the RSA? ?2] Would it be compliant to the CPM? ~?~ An organization which isn?t a broker, but happens to be the wholly > owned subsidiary of a broker > ...same questions, here, as above :-/ Given that it's about registration of service, remember RSA section 4. Conditions of service... ...particularly: b) Cooperation: c) Applicant's use of the service An organization which is owned by an entity which also owns such a > broker > etc. > > > Remember: AfriNIC has the right to review the use of the service offered to the resource members. > For any ?clear, objective, and transparent? version of such a prohibition, > I?m pretty sure it?s relatively trivial to design a structure that is just > grey enough to become ?shaded, subjective, and translucent at best?. > > ...imho, it just adds more work to AfriNIC's Staff, to protect the regional pools of INRs against "non-acceptable" uses... being it out-of-region or not. Also there is a way to report on non- compliant behaviours...so AfriNIC's Staff could benefit of a community collaboration. Shalom, --sb. > Owen > > [...] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Sun Jul 4 03:58:18 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2021 20:58:18 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM In-Reply-To: References: <17a3d21fad1.bd552ba1206303.7060355078460728919@africaoncloud.net> <22919.1624534197@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <7DFE61F1-1FDE-4F53-AC41-B95D4CB4A9F7@delong.com> <54039702-37B2-429C-9377-A95EAA9E719E@gmail.com> <2C43F55B-7352-4083-8674-EF3A07BB4A1D@delong.com> <92FD5D58-716C-4C8D-8CA8-69D048830201@pch.net> <3B5DEE07-3D4A-46A6-8D2E-8E3AD310E4D6@delong.com> Message-ID: <5DB31606-7E3B-4DCF-A551-24F2EBA6D818@delong.com> > On Jul 2, 2021, at 8:50 AM, Sylvain Baya wrote: > > Dear AfriNIC's Community, > > Hope this email finds you in good health! > > Le ven. 2 juil. 2021 12:43 PM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > a ?crit : > > > > Hi Owen, > > Thanks for your email, brother! > > > > > [...] > > Assuming that even in the simple case of a single organization, it does meet the test, then one has to consider the following easy derivatives: > > > ...interesting! > > > An organization which happens to have a wholly owned subsidiary that is a broker > > > Questions: > > ~?~ > ?1] Would that org be bound to the RSA? Unlikely. > ?2] Would it be compliant to the CPM? Unlikely. The subsidiary organization would not have a contractual relationship with AFRINIC. OTOH, in the simpler case above (single organization that is both an LRI in Africa and a broker in (e.g. EU), the single organization would be a signatory and would therefore likely be bound. > ~?~ > > > An organization which isn?t a broker, but happens to be the wholly owned subsidiary of a broker > > > ...same questions, here, as above :-/ The broker likely would not be, but the subsidiary organization would likely be bound until such time as their membership was terminated/rejected. > Given that it's about registration of service, > remember RSA section 4. Conditions of > service... > > ...particularly: > > b) Cooperation: > > c) Applicant's use of the service Yes, but those only apply to registrant?s activities with regard to resources registered to them by AFRINIC. The brokerage operation even within the same company would be independent. > An organization which is owned by an entity which also owns such a broker > etc. > > > > Remember: AfriNIC has the right to > review the use of the service offered to > the resource members. Yes, but the SERVICE in this case is the address registration of resources by AFRINIC to the member. The brokerage activity in address resources from other RIRs are not subject to AFRINIC policies and not covered by the RSA. > For any ?clear, objective, and transparent? version of such a prohibition, I?m pretty sure it?s relatively trivial to design a structure that is just grey enough to become ?shaded, subjective, and translucent at best?. > > > ...imho, it just adds more work to AfriNIC's > Staff, to protect the regional pools of > INRs against "non-acceptable" uses... > being it out-of-region or not. Why is AFRINIC at all responsible for regional pools outside of the ones under AFRINIC management? The point here is that it is an absurd concept to prohibit companies that are both LIRs in AFRICA and brokers from being members. It?s arbitrary, capricious, and illogical. > Also there is a way to report on non- > compliant behaviours...so AfriNIC's Staff > could benefit of a community collaboration. Who said anything about non-compliant behaviors? I was commenting about the absurdity of someone?s suggestion earlier that AFRINIC should terminate memberships of organizations that are address brokers. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dym5328 at gmail.com Sun Jul 4 10:06:52 2021 From: dym5328 at gmail.com (Mimi dy) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2021 11:06:52 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM In-Reply-To: <5DB31606-7E3B-4DCF-A551-24F2EBA6D818@delong.com> References: <17a3d21fad1.bd552ba1206303.7060355078460728919@africaoncloud.net> <22919.1624534197@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <7DFE61F1-1FDE-4F53-AC41-B95D4CB4A9F7@delong.com> <54039702-37B2-429C-9377-A95EAA9E719E@gmail.com> <2C43F55B-7352-4083-8674-EF3A07BB4A1D@delong.com> <92FD5D58-716C-4C8D-8CA8-69D048830201@pch.net> <3B5DEE07-3D4A-46A6-8D2E-8E3AD310E4D6@delong.com> <5DB31606-7E3B-4DCF-A551-24F2EBA6D818@delong.com> Message-ID: +1 Owen. Every AFRINIC member automatically complies with the provisions of the CPM, RSA and Bylaws. In fact, that is the prominent rule to acquire membership and receive number allocations. In my opinion, if an organization is in line with AFRINIC's reglementations, is an active member providing internet connectivity thus contributing to the region's development, I do not see a valid reason why that particular entity should not perform brokerage activities or run a legitimate business in its respective operation region or outside. The fact that a company should be penalized based on such grounds is unjust and represents a huge loss for AFRICA. Regards, Le dim. 4 juil. 2021 ? 04:59, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> a ?crit : > > > On Jul 2, 2021, at 8:50 AM, Sylvain Baya wrote: > > Dear AfriNIC's Community, > > Hope this email finds you in good health! > > Le ven. 2 juil. 2021 12:43 PM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> a ?crit : > >> >> > > > Hi Owen, > > Thanks for your email, brother! > > > >> > [...] >> >> Assuming that even in the simple case of a single organization, it does >> meet the test, then one has to consider the following easy derivatives: >> >> > > ...interesting! > > >> An organization which happens to have a wholly owned subsidiary >> that is a broker >> > > > Questions: > > ~?~ > ?1] Would that org be bound to the RSA? > > > Unlikely. > > ?2] Would it be compliant to the CPM? > > > Unlikely. > > The subsidiary organization would not have a contractual relationship with > AFRINIC. > > OTOH, in the simpler case above (single organization that is both an LRI > in Africa and a > broker in (e.g. EU), the single organization would be a signatory and > would therefore likely > be bound. > > ~?~ > > > An organization which isn?t a broker, but happens to be the wholly >> owned subsidiary of a broker >> > > > ...same questions, here, as above :-/ > > > The broker likely would not be, but the subsidiary organization would > likely be bound until such > time as their membership was terminated/rejected. > > Given that it's about registration of service, > remember RSA section 4. Conditions of > service... > > ...particularly: > > b) Cooperation: > > c) Applicant's use of the service > > > Yes, but those only apply to registrant?s activities with regard to > resources registered to them > by AFRINIC. The brokerage operation even within the same company would be > independent. > > An organization which is owned by an entity which also owns such a >> broker >> etc. >> >> >> > > Remember: AfriNIC has the right to > review the use of the service offered to > the resource members. > > > Yes, but the SERVICE in this case is the address registration of resources > by AFRINIC to the member. > The brokerage activity in address resources from other RIRs are not > subject to AFRINIC policies and > not covered by the RSA. > > For any ?clear, objective, and transparent? version of such a prohibition, >> I?m pretty sure it?s relatively trivial to design a structure that is just >> grey enough to become ?shaded, subjective, and translucent at best?. >> >> > > ...imho, it just adds more work to AfriNIC's > Staff, to protect the regional pools of > INRs against "non-acceptable" uses... > being it out-of-region or not. > > > Why is AFRINIC at all responsible for regional pools outside of the ones > under AFRINIC management? > > The point here is that it is an absurd concept to prohibit companies that > are both LIRs in AFRICA > and brokers from being members. It?s arbitrary, capricious, and illogical. > > Also there is a way to report on non- > compliant behaviours...so AfriNIC's Staff > could benefit of a community collaboration. > > > Who said anything about non-compliant behaviors? I was commenting about > the absurdity of someone?s > suggestion earlier that AFRINIC should terminate memberships of > organizations that are address > brokers. > > Owen > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Sun Jul 4 10:27:34 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2021 13:27:34 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM In-Reply-To: References: <17a3d21fad1.bd552ba1206303.7060355078460728919@africaoncloud.net> <22919.1624534197@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <7DFE61F1-1FDE-4F53-AC41-B95D4CB4A9F7@delong.com> <54039702-37B2-429C-9377-A95EAA9E719E@gmail.com> <2C43F55B-7352-4083-8674-EF3A07BB4A1D@delong.com> <92FD5D58-716C-4C8D-8CA8-69D048830201@pch.net> <3B5DEE07-3D4A-46A6-8D2E-8E3AD310E4D6@delong.com> <5DB31606-7E3B-4DCF-A551-24F2EBA6D818@delong.com> Message-ID: Hi Mimi, On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, 13:16 Mimi dy, wrote: > > The fact that a company should be penalized based on such grounds is > unjust and represents a huge loss for AFRICA. > And how exactly does a IPv4 broker present a huge loss for AFRICA? Enlighten AFRICAN's please? Noah > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dym5328 at gmail.com Sun Jul 4 10:36:31 2021 From: dym5328 at gmail.com (Mimi dy) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2021 11:36:31 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM In-Reply-To: References: <17a3d21fad1.bd552ba1206303.7060355078460728919@africaoncloud.net> <22919.1624534197@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <7DFE61F1-1FDE-4F53-AC41-B95D4CB4A9F7@delong.com> <54039702-37B2-429C-9377-A95EAA9E719E@gmail.com> <2C43F55B-7352-4083-8674-EF3A07BB4A1D@delong.com> <92FD5D58-716C-4C8D-8CA8-69D048830201@pch.net> <3B5DEE07-3D4A-46A6-8D2E-8E3AD310E4D6@delong.com> <5DB31606-7E3B-4DCF-A551-24F2EBA6D818@delong.com> Message-ID: Hello Noah, As I stressed above, an AFRINIC member who provides internet connectivity within the AFRICAN region and helps maintain a stable and accessible internet, while also legitimately running a brokerage business, should not be subject to membership termination. That being said, AFRINIC might lose an active and efficient member that highly contributes to the development of the region. I hope THAT answers your question and "enlightens" you. Best, Le dim. 4 juil. 2021 ? 11:27, Noah a ?crit : > > Hi Mimi, > > On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, 13:16 Mimi dy, wrote: > >> >> The fact that a company should be penalized based on such grounds is >> unjust and represents a huge loss for AFRICA. >> > > And how exactly does a IPv4 broker present a huge loss for AFRICA? > > Enlighten AFRICAN's please? > > Noah > >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Sun Jul 4 10:53:27 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2021 13:53:27 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM In-Reply-To: References: <17a3d21fad1.bd552ba1206303.7060355078460728919@africaoncloud.net> <22919.1624534197@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <7DFE61F1-1FDE-4F53-AC41-B95D4CB4A9F7@delong.com> <54039702-37B2-429C-9377-A95EAA9E719E@gmail.com> <2C43F55B-7352-4083-8674-EF3A07BB4A1D@delong.com> <92FD5D58-716C-4C8D-8CA8-69D048830201@pch.net> <3B5DEE07-3D4A-46A6-8D2E-8E3AD310E4D6@delong.com> <5DB31606-7E3B-4DCF-A551-24F2EBA6D818@delong.com> Message-ID: Hi Mimi, On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, 13:36 Mimi dy, wrote: > Hello Noah, > > As I stressed above, an AFRINIC member who provides internet connectivity > within the AFRICAN region and helps maintain a stable and accessible > internet, > I know resource members with ASN, IPv4 and IPv6 integers doing exactly what you are describing above. while also legitimately running a brokerage business, > They don't run brokerage business and the reason is because they requested INR based on a need to number their own infrastcture and that of their customers whom they provide a wide range of IP related services. None of those service include IPv$ brokerage. should not be subject to membership termination. > AFRINIC has publicly stated that they have never allocated IPv4 space to members for the purpose of brokerage services which involves leasing as per below link. https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-February/003907.html That being said, AFRINIC might lose an active and efficient member that > highly contributes to the development of the region. > Which member are you referring to? Cheers -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrobert at africacert.org Tue Jul 6 13:42:51 2021 From: hrobert at africacert.org (Jean-Robert Hountomey) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 09:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Community-Discuss] passive dns resource Message-ID: <1625578971.928831474@apps.rackspace.com> Greeting Community, We write to ask if we have a resource in the community that could make a presentation on passive dns. If so, I greatly appreciate it if you can contact me offline. Thank you very much. Regards. Jean-Robert Hountomey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Wed Jul 7 00:33:26 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2021 17:33:26 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <37206.1625618006@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , Mimi dy wrote: >Every AFRINIC member automatically complies with the provisions of the CPM, >RSA and Bylaws. In fact, that is the prominent rule to acquire membership >and receive number allocations... Ms. dy, I have no idea who you are, where you are from, or who or what you are representing, but I challenge you to justify the above statements in light of the current known facts relating to the AFRINIC member designated by the handle ORG-FGI1-AFRINIC, which currently holds the following IPv4 allocations, totalling some 1,114,112 IPv4 addresses: 165.231.0.0/16 196.48.0.0/16 196.56.0.0/16 196.57.0.0/16 196.58.0.0/16 196.59.0.0/16 196.196.0.0/16 196.197.0.0/16 196.198.0.0/16 196.199.0.0/16 196.240.0.0/15 196.242.0.0/15 196.244.0.0/16 196.245.0.0/16 196.247.0.0/16 The fact that nothing has been done to address this travesty, even though it has been well publicised for more than a year now, if anything shows that AFRINIC has not changed, has learned nothing, and remains corrupt to its core. Regards, rfg From anthonyubah512 at gmail.com Thu Jul 8 15:04:58 2021 From: anthonyubah512 at gmail.com (Anthony Ubah) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 23:04:58 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Global internet stability is at risk due to AFRINIC's current mismanagement Message-ID: Dear Community, We are writing this letter to let you know that AFRINIC's recent actions have brought some serious risks to the hundreds of millions of users of the Internet Ecosystem. A global internet depends on cooperation. Being one of five regional Internet Registries, AFRINIC has the power to delete the registration of more than a hundred million IP addresses. This power could be even more destructive with the addition of AS0 ROAs for space which is disputed or reclaimed. Therefore, billions users and large scale content and services that rely on those IP addresses could face instant lost of connection if AFRINIC starts revoking registrations of its members with IP addresses used in active service. Such disconnection will disrupt the connectivity of users as well as impact service at a global scale that has never been seen in human history. AFRINIC has been sending the following lines to members who have active users and service in their IP addresses: *?(AFRINIC) will in its sole discretion determine whether to immediately terminate the said Agreement as well as to proceed with the reclaiming of the aforesaid IP Number Resources.* *You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof.?* We have confirmed that many members have also received such notice on AFRINIC's pretense of violation of their RSA (Registration Service Agreement), in addition to their Bylaws, their CPM (Consolidate Policy Manual). The combined scale of those members services impacts tens of millions of Internet users and services globally. AFRINIC's claims were mainly based on the following: *1. "Any change in network or service provided, will request AFRINIC's approval and is subject to re-justification of the allocation.(NOT assignment)."* In reality, the CPM has provided a distinctive use of "Allocation" and "Assignment". Its intended allocations are for general purpose that LIRs can use or assign (or in some cases sub-allocate) and assignments are made within an allocation (or directly from AFRINIC to end users) to serve a specific purpose. To request an LIR to return its allocation when the specific purpose of the assignment has changed, has never happened in any RIR, and was never the intention of any RIR policy. *2. "AFRINIC space cannot be used outside of the AFRINIC region with the exception of soft landing space only for the purpose of supporting connectivity back to Africa. "* In fact, the community has manifested its consensus regarding the fact that there is no regional restrictions for the use of IP addresses for pre-soft landing space. The only territorial restrictions to ever gain consensus in the community specifically covers space issued after the start of the soft landing policy which is clearly stipulated under the CPM. Any act by AFRINIC to disregard this is a blatant act against the community-approved document, CPM. 3. Multiple AFRINIC resource members have been asked to provide information about third parties *that are not using addresses issued to said resource member (e.g. about BYOA(Bring Your Own Address) transit customers).* In scenarios where one resource member (A) is a customer of another resource member (B), there have been multiple instances of AFRINIC demanding that B report utilisation details of A. B is not responsible for the RIR compliance of B's customers except in regards to space issued to B under B's registration service agreement (RSA). Hence, AFRINIC's actions here attempt to force the resource member to violate customer confidentiality and potentially violate data protection laws. We know of a number of members whose resource requests have been delayed or denied pending compliance with such demands. In some cases, AFRINIC has gone so far as to threaten RSA termination based on failure to comply with these demands. *4. "AFRINIC can disconnect millions of users and services without taking any liability and at their will whenever they would like."* *(All the references to AFRINIC's claims, in their actual wording that were sent to the resource members, have been attached at the bottom of this letter, except for point 4, which was shared at the beginning of the letter)* The above claims do not correspond with AFRINIC's governing documents (CPM, RSA, and bylaw). They are a misinterpretation of those documents that have led to an incorrect conclusion. Using those claims to manage people?s network and trying to reclaim people active and legitimately utilised IP addresses without having any concerns about the end users or services that are being impacted is a direct and serious threat to the global internet. We are hoping the global community can realise and act together, to right this wrong. If you are part of AFRINIC's resource membership, please speak out and express your need for:: *1. **The freedom to run your network as you see fit* *2. **The ability to protect the internet connectivity of your users.* 3. *The ability to disclose only that data which is necessary for the legitimate administrative purposes of the registry.* The reference details of AFRINIC?s claims are shown as below: *Point 1:* *?AFRINIC acknowledges the feedback provided and further takes note that the current utilisation of the allocated no longer matches the "needs" expressed when resources were issued, in accordance with the RSA and we hereby refer you to clause 6(d)(iii) of the RSA; which your organisation signed, thereby acknowledged and agreed that the ?right of use? of IP Number Resources is bestowed within the ambit of the ?need? which is* *justified in its application and for no other purpose during the currency of the present agreement.?* *Point 2:* *?AFRINIC space cannot be used outside of the AFRINIC region with the exception of soft landing space only for the purpose of supporting connectivity back to Africa according to section 6 of the bylaw"* Section 6 of the bylaws only states what type of membership each entity qualifies for and the requirements of said membership, nothing about IP usage. The relevant portion of section 6 is below: 6.1) Subject to the other provisions of this Article, membership shall be open to: ? Any Person who is geographically based within, and providing services in the African region, and who is engaged in the use of, or business of providing, open system protocol network services; or ? Any other Person who is approved by the Board or the members. *Point 3:* AFRINIC requests the following information to its member regarding a customer that does not use his AFRINIC IP: *?Kindly provide the name and the actual service being provided to that client. Moreover, please share with us the reason that the client gave to justify their need for a third-party AS number. You may alternatively share the agreement which you have with that particular customer.?* The signatures of dozens of community members and resource members are attached in the Google drive link below : https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-4ihJZjnDpca4F0JUL8N3yY_eoGhiEjX?usp=sharing Regards, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eddy at afrinic.net Thu Jul 8 21:14:18 2021 From: eddy at afrinic.net (Eddy Kayihura) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 01:14:18 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number resources Message-ID: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> Dear Colleagues, AFRINIC hereby informs all those concerned that it has initiated actions for the reclamation of Internet number resources from Cloud Innovation Ltd. On 07 July 2021, the Supreme Court of Mauritius delivered a judgement whereby the application for injunction lodged by Cloud Innovation Ltd has been set aside. Consequently, on 08 July 2021, AFRINIC?s Board of Directors, whilst acting reasonably and in good faith, more so, in light of the judgment of the Supreme Court of Mauritius, found that Cloud Innovation Ltd failed to honour its obligations under the Registration Service Agreement and has thus decided to terminate the membership of Cloud Innovation Ltd as well as reclaim its number resources in the following manner: The resources previously allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd will be ?frozen? on the AFRINIC WHOIS database with Cloud Innovation Ltd no longer having access to the same. In order not to disrupt Internet connectivity of the relevant users especially in the current context of the COVID-19 pandemic, all affected users will exceptionally be granted a grace period of 90 days to consider other available options in their best interests. Consequently, the actual reclamation of the relevant number resources will occur following the expiry of the grace period. Eddy Kayihura Chief Executive Officer, African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) ceo at afrinic.net ?????????????????????????????????.. Chers coll?gues, AFRINIC informe toutes les personnes concern?es qu'elle a entam? des actions de r?clamation des ressources de num?ros Internet aupr?s de Cloud Innovation Ltd. Le 07 juillet 2021, la Cour Supr?me de Maurice a rendu un jugement par lequel la demande d'injonction d?pos?e par Cloud Innovation Ltd a ?t? rejet?e. En cons?quence, le 08 juillet 2021, le Conseil d'administration d'AFRINIC, tout en agissant raisonnablement et de bonne foi, et plus encore, ? la lumi?re du jugement de la Cour Supr?me de Maurice, a constat? que Cloud Innovation Ltd n'a pas honor? ses obligations en vertu du Contrat de Service d'Enregistrement et a donc d?cid? de r?silier l'adh?sion de Cloud Innovation Ltd ainsi que de r?clamer ses ressources de num?ros Internet de la mani?re suivante : Les ressources pr?c?demment attribu?es ? Cloud Innovation Ltd seront "gel?es" dans la base de donn?es WHOIS d'AFRINIC et Cloud Innovation Ltd n'y aura plus acc?s. Afin de ne pas interrompre la connectivit? Internet des utilisateurs concern?s, notamment dans le contexte actuel de la pand?mie de COVID-19, tous les utilisateurs concern?s b?n?ficieront exceptionnellement d'une p?riode de gr?ce de 90 jours pour envisager d'autres options disponibles dans leur int?r?t. Par cons?quent, la r?clamation effective des ressources num?riques concern?es aura lieu apr?s l'expiration de la p?riode de gr?ce. Eddy Kayihura Chief Executive Officer, African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) ceo at afrinic.net ??????????????. ?????? ???????? ????? AFRINIC ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ???????? ????? ????? ???????? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd. ?? 07 ????? 2021 ? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? Cloud Innovation Ltd. ???????? ? ?? 08 ????? 2021 ? ??? ???? ????? AFRINIC ? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????????? ? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd ???? ?? ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???????? ???? ????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ???????: ???? "?????" ??????? ??????? ?????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?? ????? ?????? AFRINIC WHOIS ? ??? ?? ??? ?????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?????? ?????. ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? COVID-19 ? ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ????? 90 ????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????. ???????? ? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????. Eddy Kayihura Chief Executive Officer, African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) ceo at afrinic.net ???????????. Caros Colegas, AFRINIC informa todos os interessados que iniciou ac??es para a recupera??o de recursos de n?meros de Internet da Cloud Innovation Ltd. Em 07 de Julho de 2021, o Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias proferiu uma senten?a pela qual o pedido de injun??o apresentado pela Cloud Innovation Ltd foi anulado. Consequentemente, a 08 de Julho de 2021, o Conselho de Administra??o da AFRINIC, embora agindo razoavelmente e de boa f?, mais ainda, ? luz do ac?rd?o do Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias, considerou que a Cloud Innovation Ltd n?o honrou as suas obriga??es ao abrigo do Acordo de Servi?o de Registo, tendo assim decidido p?r termo ? ades?o da Cloud Innovation Ltd, bem como reclamar os seus recursos num?ricos da seguinte forma: Os recursos anteriormente atribu?dos ? Cloud Innovation Ltd ser?o "congelados" na base de dados AFRINIC WHOIS, tendo a Cloud Innovation Ltd deixado de ter acesso ? mesma. A fim de n?o perturbar a conectividade Internet dos utilizadores relevantes, especialmente no actual contexto da pandemia COVID-19, todos os utilizadores afectados ter?o excepcionalmente um per?odo de gra?a de 90 dias para considerar outras op??es dispon?veis no seu melhor interesse. Consequentemente, a recupera??o efectiva dos recursos num?ricos relevantes ocorrer? ap?s o termo do per?odo de car?ncia. Eddy Kayihura Chief Executive Officer, African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) ceo at afrinic.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Fri Jul 9 05:29:27 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 22:29:27 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Global internet stability is at risk due to AFRINIC's current mismanagement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <46868.1625808567@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Anthony Ubah wrote: Mr. Ubah, It would add to the credibility of your message if you idenitified yourself as well as identifying what organization you represent. I have no idea who the hell you are, and I suspect that I am not alone. >The signatures of dozens of community members and resource members are >attached in the Google drive link below : >https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-4ihJZjnDpca4F0JUL8N3yY_eoGhiEjX?usshar ing That is simply an inaccurate statememt. I count a sum total of -one- dozen signatories to the document in question, and at least ten of those are people who, like you, I've never heard of before and who have not even bothered to indicate who or what they are affiliated with. In short your entire endeavor here is more than a little suspect. It all looks like a rather lame effort at what is called "astroturfing". I look forward to you proving otherwise. Regards, rfg From paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net Fri Jul 9 06:47:51 2021 From: paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net (Paul Wollner) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2021 08:47:51 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number resources In-Reply-To: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> References: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> Message-ID: <17a8a05c244.11c7dce2698390.4816319699309652547@africaoncloud.net> To whom it may concern,?I believe the community would be most interested to see the notice, attendance, and voting?record of the recent board meeting where Cloud Innovation?s membership was summarily?terminated without notice and without opportunity to respond or appear in their own defense.?I think the community would be most interested to know:?1. ? ?Which board members agreed to the meeting on short notice??2. ? ?Which board members voted in favor of the motion and which against??3. ? ?Who tabled and who seconded the motion??4. ? ?What was the nature and extent of deliberations??5. ? ?Why the urgency to act so swiftly after the judge set aside the order??6. ? ?When was the meeting noticed??7. ? ?When did the meeting take place??8. ? ?How/where did the meeting take place??Regards,?Paul Wollner---- On Thu, 08 Jul 2021 23:14:18 +0200 Eddy Kayihura wrote ----Dear Colleagues,AFRINIC hereby informs all those concerned that it has initiated actions for the reclamation of Internet number resources from Cloud Innovation Ltd.On 07 July 2021, the Supreme Court of Mauritius delivered a judgement whereby the application for injunction lodged by Cloud Innovation Ltd has been set aside. Consequently, on 08 July 2021, AFRINIC?s Board of Directors, whilst acting reasonably and in good faith, more so, in light of the judgment of the Supreme Court of Mauritius, found that Cloud Innovation Ltd failed to honour its obligations under the Registration Service Agreement and has thus decided to terminate the membership of Cloud Innovation Ltd as well as reclaim its number resources in the following manner:The resources previously allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd will be ?frozen? on the AFRINIC WHOIS database with Cloud Innovation Ltd no longer?having?access to the same.?In order not to disrupt Internet connectivity of the relevant users especially in the current context of the COVID-19 pandemic, all affected users will exceptionally be granted a grace period of 90 days to consider other available options in their best interests. Consequently, the actual reclamation of the relevant number resources will occur following the expiry of the grace period.?Eddy KayihuraChief Executive Officer,African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC)ceo at afrinic.net?????????????????????????????????..Chers coll?gues,AFRINIC informe toutes les personnes concern?es qu'elle a entam? des actions de r?clamation des ressources de num?ros Internet aupr?s de Cloud Innovation Ltd.Le 07 juillet 2021, la Cour Supr?me de Maurice a rendu un jugement par lequel la demande d'injonction d?pos?e par Cloud Innovation Ltd a ?t? rejet?e.En cons?quence, le 08 juillet 2021, le Conseil d'administration d'AFRINIC, tout en agissant raisonnablement et de bonne foi, et plus encore, ? la lumi?re du jugement de la Cour Supr?me de Maurice, a constat? que Cloud Innovation Ltd n'a pas honor? ses obligations en vertu du Contrat de Service d'Enregistrement et a donc d?cid? de r?silier l'adh?sion de Cloud Innovation Ltd ainsi que de r?clamer ses ressources de num?ros Internet de la mani?re suivante :Les ressources pr?c?demment attribu?es ? Cloud Innovation Ltd seront "gel?es" dans la base de donn?es WHOIS d'AFRINIC et Cloud Innovation Ltd n'y aura plus acc?s.Afin de ne pas interrompre la connectivit? Internet des utilisateurs concern?s, notamment dans le contexte actuel de la pand?mie de COVID-19, tous les utilisateurs concern?s b?n?ficieront exceptionnellement d'une p?riode de gr?ce de 90 jours pour envisager d'autres options disponibles dans leur int?r?t. Par cons?quent, la r?clamation effective des ressources num?riques concern?es aura lieu apr?s l'expiration de la p?riode de gr?ce.Eddy KayihuraChief Executive Officer,African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC)ceo at afrinic.net??????????????.?????? ????????????? AFRINIC ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ???????? ????? ????? ???????? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd.?? 07 ????? 2021 ? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? Cloud Innovation Ltd.???????? ? ?? 08 ????? 2021 ? ??? ???? ????? AFRINIC ? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????????? ? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd ???? ?? ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???????? ???? ????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ???????:???? "?????" ??????? ??????? ?????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?? ????? ?????? AFRINIC WHOIS ? ??? ?? ??? ?????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?????? ?????.??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? COVID-19 ? ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ????? 90 ????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????. ???????? ? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????.Eddy KayihuraChief Executive Officer,African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC)ceo at afrinic.net???????????.Caros Colegas,AFRINIC informa todos os interessados que iniciou ac??es para a recupera??o de recursos de n?meros de Internet da Cloud Innovation Ltd.Em 07 de Julho de 2021, o Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias proferiu uma senten?a pela qual o pedido de injun??o apresentado pela Cloud Innovation Ltd foi anulado.Consequentemente, a 08 de Julho de 2021, o Conselho de Administra??o da AFRINIC, embora agindo razoavelmente e de boa f?, mais ainda, ? luz do ac?rd?o do Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias, considerou que a Cloud Innovation Ltd n?o honrou as suas obriga??es ao abrigo do Acordo de Servi?o de Registo, tendo assim decidido p?r termo ? ades?o da Cloud Innovation Ltd, bem como reclamar os seus recursos num?ricos da seguinte forma:Os recursos anteriormente atribu?dos ? Cloud Innovation Ltd ser?o "congelados" na base de dados AFRINIC WHOIS, tendo a Cloud Innovation Ltd deixado de ter acesso ? mesma.A fim de n?o perturbar a conectividade Internet dos utilizadores relevantes, especialmente no actual contexto da pandemia COVID-19, todos os utilizadores afectados ter?o excepcionalmente um per?odo de gra?a de 90 dias para considerar outras op??es dispon?veis no seu melhor interesse. Consequentemente, a recupera??o efectiva dos recursos num?ricos relevantes ocorrer? ap?s o termo do per?odo de car?ncia.Eddy KayihuraChief Executive Officer,African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC)ceo at afrinic.net_______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dndannang at gmail.com Fri Jul 9 06:55:54 2021 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 09:55:54 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number resources In-Reply-To: <17a8a05c244.11c7dce2698390.4816319699309652547@africaoncloud.net> References: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> <17a8a05c244.11c7dce2698390.4816319699309652547@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Dear Paul, I don't think who voted is of importance to the community. We need to protect the privacy of the board members. The information you are requesting for infringes on privacy rights of the board. Otherwise, thanks for your concern. Daniel Nanghaka On Fri, Jul 9, 2021, 9:49 AM Paul Wollner wrote: > To whom it may concern, > > I believe the community would be most interested to see the notice, > attendance, and voting > record of the recent board meeting where Cloud Innovation?s membership was > summarily > terminated without notice and without opportunity to respond or appear in > their own defense. > > I think the community would be most interested to know: > > 1. Which board members agreed to the meeting on short notice? > 2. Which board members voted in favor of the motion and which against? > 3. Who tabled and who seconded the motion? > 4. What was the nature and extent of deliberations? > 5. Why the urgency to act so swiftly after the judge set aside the > order? > 6. When was the meeting noticed? > 7. When did the meeting take place? > 8. How/where did the meeting take place? > > Regards, > Paul Wollner > > > > > > > ---- On Thu, 08 Jul 2021 23:14:18 +0200 Eddy Kayihura > wrote ---- > > Dear Colleagues, > > AFRINIC hereby informs all those concerned that it has initiated actions > for the reclamation of Internet number resources from Cloud Innovation Ltd. > > On 07 July 2021, the Supreme Court of Mauritius delivered a judgement > whereby the application for injunction lodged by Cloud Innovation Ltd has > been set aside. > > Consequently, on 08 July 2021, AFRINIC?s Board of Directors, whilst acting > reasonably and in good faith, more so, in light of the judgment of the > Supreme Court of Mauritius, found that Cloud Innovation Ltd failed to > honour its obligations under the Registration Service Agreement and has > thus decided to terminate the membership of Cloud Innovation Ltd as well > as reclaim its number resources in the following manner: > > - The resources previously allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd will be > ?frozen? on the AFRINIC WHOIS database with Cloud Innovation Ltd no longer > having access to the same. > > - > > In order not to disrupt Internet connectivity of the relevant users > especially in the current context of the COVID-19 pandemic, all affected > users will exceptionally be granted a grace period of 90 days to consider > other available options in their best interests. Consequently, the actual > reclamation of the relevant number resources will occur following the > expiry of the grace period. > > > Eddy Kayihura > Chief Executive Officer, > African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) > ceo at afrinic.net > > ?????????????????????????????????.. > > Chers coll?gues, > > AFRINIC informe toutes les personnes concern?es qu'elle a entam? des > actions de r?clamation des ressources de num?ros Internet aupr?s de Cloud > Innovation Ltd. > > Le 07 juillet 2021, la Cour Supr?me de Maurice a rendu un jugement par > lequel la demande d'injonction d?pos?e par Cloud Innovation Ltd a ?t? > rejet?e. > > En cons?quence, le 08 juillet 2021, le Conseil d'administration d'AFRINIC, > tout en agissant raisonnablement et de bonne foi, et plus encore, ? la > lumi?re du jugement de la Cour Supr?me de Maurice, a constat? que Cloud > Innovation Ltd n'a pas honor? ses obligations en vertu du Contrat de > Service d'Enregistrement et a donc d?cid? de r?silier l'adh?sion de Cloud > Innovation Ltd ainsi que de r?clamer ses ressources de num?ros Internet de > la mani?re suivante : > > - Les ressources pr?c?demment attribu?es ? Cloud Innovation Ltd seront > "gel?es" dans la base de donn?es WHOIS d'AFRINIC et Cloud Innovation Ltd > n'y aura plus acc?s. > - > > Afin de ne pas interrompre la connectivit? Internet des utilisateurs > concern?s, notamment dans le contexte actuel de la pand?mie de COVID-19, > tous les utilisateurs concern?s b?n?ficieront exceptionnellement d'une > p?riode de gr?ce de 90 jours pour envisager d'autres options disponibles > dans leur int?r?t. Par cons?quent, la r?clamation effective des ressources > num?riques concern?es aura lieu apr?s l'expiration de la p?riode de gr?ce. > > > Eddy Kayihura > Chief Executive Officer, > African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) > ceo at afrinic.net > > ??????????????. > > ?????? ???????? > > ????? AFRINIC ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? > ???????? ????? ????? ???????? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd. > > ?? 07 ????? 2021 ? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? > ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? Cloud Innovation Ltd. > > ???????? ? ?? 08 ????? 2021 ? ??? ???? ????? AFRINIC ? ????? ????? ???? > ????? ????? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????????? ? ?? Cloud Innovation > Ltd ???? ?? ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???????? ???? > ????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ???????? > ???????: > > ???? "?????" ??????? ??????? ?????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?? ????? > ?????? AFRINIC WHOIS ? ??? ?? ??? ?????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?????? ?????. > > ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? > ????? COVID-19 ? ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ???? ???????? ???? ???? > ????? 90 ????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????. > ???????? ? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? > ???? ??????. > Eddy Kayihura > Chief Executive Officer, > African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) > ceo at afrinic.net > > ???????????. > > Caros Colegas, > > AFRINIC informa todos os interessados que iniciou ac??es para a > recupera??o de recursos de n?meros de Internet da Cloud Innovation Ltd. > > Em 07 de Julho de 2021, o Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias proferiu uma > senten?a pela qual o pedido de injun??o apresentado pela Cloud Innovation > Ltd foi anulado. > > Consequentemente, a 08 de Julho de 2021, o Conselho de Administra??o da > AFRINIC, embora agindo razoavelmente e de boa f?, mais ainda, ? luz do > ac?rd?o do Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias, considerou que a Cloud > Innovation Ltd n?o honrou as suas obriga??es ao abrigo do Acordo de Servi?o > de Registo, tendo assim decidido p?r termo ? ades?o da Cloud Innovation > Ltd, bem como reclamar os seus recursos num?ricos da seguinte forma: > > - Os recursos anteriormente atribu?dos ? Cloud Innovation Ltd ser?o > "congelados" na base de dados AFRINIC WHOIS, tendo a Cloud Innovation Ltd > deixado de ter acesso ? mesma. > - > > A fim de n?o perturbar a conectividade Internet dos utilizadores > relevantes, especialmente no actual contexto da pandemia COVID-19, todos os > utilizadores afectados ter?o excepcionalmente um per?odo de gra?a de 90 > dias para considerar outras op??es dispon?veis no seu melhor interesse. > Consequentemente, a recupera??o efectiva dos recursos num?ricos relevantes > ocorrer? ap?s o termo do per?odo de car?ncia. > > Eddy Kayihura > Chief Executive Officer, > African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) > ceo at afrinic.net > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dym5328 at gmail.com Fri Jul 9 07:49:16 2021 From: dym5328 at gmail.com (Mimi dy) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 08:49:16 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number resources In-Reply-To: References: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> <17a8a05c244.11c7dce2698390.4816319699309652547@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Hello, I think that Paul has the right to request such information. As far as I am concerned, any open and transparent community to the best of its capacity, allows its members to be informed and provides any sort of useful piece of info. It is no secret that those particular values are the bedrock of the whole RIR system. In fact, this matter concerns not only the named company but also millions of users, I think Eddy has stated it himself in his email. That is NOT a "private" matter, it certainly concerns a much broader group of people and we would like the community to be fully included in this process, in the light of understanding the process of how such a decision is made. Best, Le ven. 9 juil. 2021 ? 07:56, DANIEL NANGHAKA a ?crit : > Dear Paul, > > I don't think who voted is of importance to the community. We need to > protect the privacy of the board members. > > The information you are requesting for infringes on privacy rights of the > board. > > Otherwise, thanks for your concern. > > Daniel Nanghaka > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021, 9:49 AM Paul Wollner > wrote: > >> To whom it may concern, >> >> I believe the community would be most interested to see the notice, >> attendance, and voting >> record of the recent board meeting where Cloud Innovation?s membership >> was summarily >> terminated without notice and without opportunity to respond or appear in >> their own defense. >> >> I think the community would be most interested to know: >> >> 1. Which board members agreed to the meeting on short notice? >> 2. Which board members voted in favor of the motion and which against? >> 3. Who tabled and who seconded the motion? >> 4. What was the nature and extent of deliberations? >> 5. Why the urgency to act so swiftly after the judge set aside the >> order? >> 6. When was the meeting noticed? >> 7. When did the meeting take place? >> 8. How/where did the meeting take place? >> >> Regards, >> Paul Wollner >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---- On Thu, 08 Jul 2021 23:14:18 +0200 Eddy Kayihura >> wrote ---- >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> AFRINIC hereby informs all those concerned that it has initiated actions >> for the reclamation of Internet number resources from Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> On 07 July 2021, the Supreme Court of Mauritius delivered a judgement >> whereby the application for injunction lodged by Cloud Innovation Ltd has >> been set aside. >> >> Consequently, on 08 July 2021, AFRINIC?s Board of Directors, whilst >> acting reasonably and in good faith, more so, in light of the judgment of >> the Supreme Court of Mauritius, found that Cloud Innovation Ltd failed to >> honour its obligations under the Registration Service Agreement and has >> thus decided to terminate the membership of Cloud Innovation Ltd as well >> as reclaim its number resources in the following manner: >> >> - The resources previously allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd will be >> ?frozen? on the AFRINIC WHOIS database with Cloud Innovation Ltd no longer >> having access to the same. >> >> - >> >> In order not to disrupt Internet connectivity of the relevant users >> especially in the current context of the COVID-19 pandemic, all affected >> users will exceptionally be granted a grace period of 90 days to consider >> other available options in their best interests. Consequently, the actual >> reclamation of the relevant number resources will occur following the >> expiry of the grace period. >> >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >> ceo at afrinic.net >> >> ?????????????????????????????????.. >> >> Chers coll?gues, >> >> AFRINIC informe toutes les personnes concern?es qu'elle a entam? des >> actions de r?clamation des ressources de num?ros Internet aupr?s de Cloud >> Innovation Ltd. >> >> Le 07 juillet 2021, la Cour Supr?me de Maurice a rendu un jugement par >> lequel la demande d'injonction d?pos?e par Cloud Innovation Ltd a ?t? >> rejet?e. >> >> En cons?quence, le 08 juillet 2021, le Conseil d'administration >> d'AFRINIC, tout en agissant raisonnablement et de bonne foi, et plus >> encore, ? la lumi?re du jugement de la Cour Supr?me de Maurice, a constat? >> que Cloud Innovation Ltd n'a pas honor? ses obligations en vertu du Contrat >> de Service d'Enregistrement et a donc d?cid? de r?silier l'adh?sion de >> Cloud Innovation Ltd ainsi que de r?clamer ses ressources de num?ros >> Internet de la mani?re suivante : >> >> - Les ressources pr?c?demment attribu?es ? Cloud Innovation Ltd >> seront "gel?es" dans la base de donn?es WHOIS d'AFRINIC et Cloud Innovation >> Ltd n'y aura plus acc?s. >> - >> >> Afin de ne pas interrompre la connectivit? Internet des utilisateurs >> concern?s, notamment dans le contexte actuel de la pand?mie de COVID-19, >> tous les utilisateurs concern?s b?n?ficieront exceptionnellement d'une >> p?riode de gr?ce de 90 jours pour envisager d'autres options disponibles >> dans leur int?r?t. Par cons?quent, la r?clamation effective des ressources >> num?riques concern?es aura lieu apr?s l'expiration de la p?riode de gr?ce. >> >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >> ceo at afrinic.net >> >> ??????????????. >> >> ?????? ???????? >> >> ????? AFRINIC ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? >> ???????? ????? ????? ???????? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> ?? 07 ????? 2021 ? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? >> ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> ???????? ? ?? 08 ????? 2021 ? ??? ???? ????? AFRINIC ? ????? ????? ???? >> ????? ????? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????????? ? ?? Cloud Innovation >> Ltd ???? ?? ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???????? ???? >> ????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ???????? >> ???????: >> >> ???? "?????" ??????? ??????? ?????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?? ????? >> ?????? AFRINIC WHOIS ? ??? ?? ??? ?????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?????? ?????. >> >> ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? >> ?????? ????? COVID-19 ? ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ???? ???????? >> ???? ???? ????? 90 ????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? >> ??????. ???????? ? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??? >> ?????? ???? ??????. >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >> ceo at afrinic.net >> >> ???????????. >> >> Caros Colegas, >> >> AFRINIC informa todos os interessados que iniciou ac??es para a >> recupera??o de recursos de n?meros de Internet da Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> Em 07 de Julho de 2021, o Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias proferiu uma >> senten?a pela qual o pedido de injun??o apresentado pela Cloud Innovation >> Ltd foi anulado. >> >> Consequentemente, a 08 de Julho de 2021, o Conselho de Administra??o da >> AFRINIC, embora agindo razoavelmente e de boa f?, mais ainda, ? luz do >> ac?rd?o do Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias, considerou que a Cloud >> Innovation Ltd n?o honrou as suas obriga??es ao abrigo do Acordo de Servi?o >> de Registo, tendo assim decidido p?r termo ? ades?o da Cloud Innovation >> Ltd, bem como reclamar os seus recursos num?ricos da seguinte forma: >> >> - Os recursos anteriormente atribu?dos ? Cloud Innovation Ltd ser?o >> "congelados" na base de dados AFRINIC WHOIS, tendo a Cloud Innovation Ltd >> deixado de ter acesso ? mesma. >> - >> >> A fim de n?o perturbar a conectividade Internet dos utilizadores >> relevantes, especialmente no actual contexto da pandemia COVID-19, todos os >> utilizadores afectados ter?o excepcionalmente um per?odo de gra?a de 90 >> dias para considerar outras op??es dispon?veis no seu melhor interesse. >> Consequentemente, a recupera??o efectiva dos recursos num?ricos relevantes >> ocorrer? ap?s o termo do per?odo de car?ncia. >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >> ceo at afrinic.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erickj.lagon at gmail.com Fri Jul 9 08:21:54 2021 From: erickj.lagon at gmail.com (Erick Joshua Lagon) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 16:21:54 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number resources In-Reply-To: References: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> <17a8a05c244.11c7dce2698390.4816319699309652547@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Hello, It?s privacy infringement if it?s a private matter. How is this a private matter when concerning clearly tons of users? I have to say it?s the second time I saw Paul Wollner posted, and I hope AFRINIC will not ignore him and address his questions. We?re in a supposedly transparent community. Regards, Erick On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 3:50 PM Mimi dy wrote: > Hello, > > I think that Paul has the right to request such information. As far as I > am concerned, any open and transparent community to the best of its > capacity, allows its members to be informed and provides any sort of useful > piece of info. It is no secret that those particular values are the bedrock > of the whole RIR system. In fact, this matter concerns not only the named > company but also millions of users, I think Eddy has stated it himself in > his email. > > That is NOT a "private" matter, it certainly concerns a much broader group > of people and we would like the community to be fully included in this > process, in the light of understanding the process of how such a decision > is made. > > Best, > > Le ven. 9 juil. 2021 ? 07:56, DANIEL NANGHAKA a > ?crit : > >> Dear Paul, >> >> I don't think who voted is of importance to the community. We need to >> protect the privacy of the board members. >> >> The information you are requesting for infringes on privacy rights of the >> board. >> >> Otherwise, thanks for your concern. >> >> Daniel Nanghaka >> >> On Fri, Jul 9, 2021, 9:49 AM Paul Wollner >> wrote: >> >>> To whom it may concern, >>> >>> I believe the community would be most interested to see the notice, >>> attendance, and voting >>> record of the recent board meeting where Cloud Innovation?s membership >>> was summarily >>> terminated without notice and without opportunity to respond or appear >>> in their own defense. >>> >>> I think the community would be most interested to know: >>> >>> 1. Which board members agreed to the meeting on short notice? >>> 2. Which board members voted in favor of the motion and which >>> against? >>> 3. Who tabled and who seconded the motion? >>> 4. What was the nature and extent of deliberations? >>> 5. Why the urgency to act so swiftly after the judge set aside the >>> order? >>> 6. When was the meeting noticed? >>> 7. When did the meeting take place? >>> 8. How/where did the meeting take place? >>> >>> Regards, >>> Paul Wollner >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---- On Thu, 08 Jul 2021 23:14:18 +0200 Eddy Kayihura >>> wrote ---- >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> AFRINIC hereby informs all those concerned that it has initiated >>> actions for the reclamation of Internet number resources from Cloud >>> Innovation Ltd. >>> >>> On 07 July 2021, the Supreme Court of Mauritius delivered a judgement >>> whereby the application for injunction lodged by Cloud Innovation Ltd has >>> been set aside. >>> >>> Consequently, on 08 July 2021, AFRINIC?s Board of Directors, whilst >>> acting reasonably and in good faith, more so, in light of the judgment of >>> the Supreme Court of Mauritius, found that Cloud Innovation Ltd failed to >>> honour its obligations under the Registration Service Agreement and has >>> thus decided to terminate the membership of Cloud Innovation Ltd as >>> well as reclaim its number resources in the following manner: >>> >>> - The resources previously allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd will be >>> ?frozen? on the AFRINIC WHOIS database with Cloud Innovation Ltd no longer >>> having access to the same. >>> >>> - >>> >>> In order not to disrupt Internet connectivity of the relevant users >>> especially in the current context of the COVID-19 pandemic, all affected >>> users will exceptionally be granted a grace period of 90 days to consider >>> other available options in their best interests. Consequently, the actual >>> reclamation of the relevant number resources will occur following the >>> expiry of the grace period. >>> >>> >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> Chief Executive Officer, >>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> >>> ?????????????????????????????????.. >>> >>> Chers coll?gues, >>> >>> AFRINIC informe toutes les personnes concern?es qu'elle a entam? des >>> actions de r?clamation des ressources de num?ros Internet aupr?s de Cloud >>> Innovation Ltd. >>> >>> Le 07 juillet 2021, la Cour Supr?me de Maurice a rendu un jugement par >>> lequel la demande d'injonction d?pos?e par Cloud Innovation Ltd a ?t? >>> rejet?e. >>> >>> En cons?quence, le 08 juillet 2021, le Conseil d'administration >>> d'AFRINIC, tout en agissant raisonnablement et de bonne foi, et plus >>> encore, ? la lumi?re du jugement de la Cour Supr?me de Maurice, a constat? >>> que Cloud Innovation Ltd n'a pas honor? ses obligations en vertu du Contrat >>> de Service d'Enregistrement et a donc d?cid? de r?silier l'adh?sion de >>> Cloud Innovation Ltd ainsi que de r?clamer ses ressources de num?ros >>> Internet de la mani?re suivante : >>> >>> - Les ressources pr?c?demment attribu?es ? Cloud Innovation Ltd >>> seront "gel?es" dans la base de donn?es WHOIS d'AFRINIC et Cloud Innovation >>> Ltd n'y aura plus acc?s. >>> - >>> >>> Afin de ne pas interrompre la connectivit? Internet des utilisateurs >>> concern?s, notamment dans le contexte actuel de la pand?mie de COVID-19, >>> tous les utilisateurs concern?s b?n?ficieront exceptionnellement d'une >>> p?riode de gr?ce de 90 jours pour envisager d'autres options disponibles >>> dans leur int?r?t. Par cons?quent, la r?clamation effective des ressources >>> num?riques concern?es aura lieu apr?s l'expiration de la p?riode de gr?ce. >>> >>> >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> Chief Executive Officer, >>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> >>> ??????????????. >>> >>> ?????? ???????? >>> >>> ????? AFRINIC ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? >>> ???????? ????? ????? ???????? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>> >>> ?? 07 ????? 2021 ? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? >>> ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>> >>> ???????? ? ?? 08 ????? 2021 ? ??? ???? ????? AFRINIC ? ????? ????? ???? >>> ????? ????? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????????? ? ?? Cloud Innovation >>> Ltd ???? ?? ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???????? ???? >>> ????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ???????? >>> ???????: >>> >>> ???? "?????" ??????? ??????? ?????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?? ????? >>> ?????? AFRINIC WHOIS ? ??? ?? ??? ?????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?????? ?????. >>> >>> ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? >>> ?????? ????? COVID-19 ? ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ???? ???????? >>> ???? ???? ????? 90 ????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? >>> ??????. ???????? ? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??? >>> ?????? ???? ??????. >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> Chief Executive Officer, >>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> >>> ???????????. >>> >>> Caros Colegas, >>> >>> AFRINIC informa todos os interessados que iniciou ac??es para a >>> recupera??o de recursos de n?meros de Internet da Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>> >>> Em 07 de Julho de 2021, o Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias proferiu uma >>> senten?a pela qual o pedido de injun??o apresentado pela Cloud Innovation >>> Ltd foi anulado. >>> >>> Consequentemente, a 08 de Julho de 2021, o Conselho de Administra??o da >>> AFRINIC, embora agindo razoavelmente e de boa f?, mais ainda, ? luz do >>> ac?rd?o do Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias, considerou que a Cloud >>> Innovation Ltd n?o honrou as suas obriga??es ao abrigo do Acordo de Servi?o >>> de Registo, tendo assim decidido p?r termo ? ades?o da Cloud Innovation >>> Ltd, bem como reclamar os seus recursos num?ricos da seguinte forma: >>> >>> - Os recursos anteriormente atribu?dos ? Cloud Innovation Ltd ser?o >>> "congelados" na base de dados AFRINIC WHOIS, tendo a Cloud Innovation Ltd >>> deixado de ter acesso ? mesma. >>> - >>> >>> A fim de n?o perturbar a conectividade Internet dos utilizadores >>> relevantes, especialmente no actual contexto da pandemia COVID-19, todos os >>> utilizadores afectados ter?o excepcionalmente um per?odo de gra?a de 90 >>> dias para considerar outras op??es dispon?veis no seu melhor interesse. >>> Consequentemente, a recupera??o efectiva dos recursos num?ricos relevantes >>> ocorrer? ap?s o termo do per?odo de car?ncia. >>> >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> Chief Executive Officer, >>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Fri Jul 9 08:29:37 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 01:29:37 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number resources In-Reply-To: References: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> <17a8a05c244.11c7dce2698390.4816319699309652547@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Daniel, With all due respect, no, we don?t. The voting record of board members in all matters AFRINIC is a perfectly valid thing to consider when they come up for re-election and should be a matter of public record. The members have a right to know how the board is acting on their behalf and they have a right to know which board members are acting in what way during board meetings. Everything requested should absolutely be part of the published minutes which the community and board agreed should be public several years ago. There are no privacy rights of the board as a body and the board members have no right or expectation of privacy in board actions. The only exception should be privileged or executive sessions, such as those dealing with personnel matters (e.g. the firing of the CEO, salaries, etc.). This motion should not fall within that criteria since the member in question was not invited to present a defense and was not in attendance at the meeting. Owen > On Jul 8, 2021, at 23:55 , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > > Dear Paul, > > I don't think who voted is of importance to the community. We need to protect the privacy of the board members. > > The information you are requesting for infringes on privacy rights of the board. > > Otherwise, thanks for your concern. > > Daniel Nanghaka > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021, 9:49 AM Paul Wollner > wrote: > To whom it may concern, > > I believe the community would be most interested to see the notice, attendance, and voting > record of the recent board meeting where Cloud Innovation?s membership was summarily > terminated without notice and without opportunity to respond or appear in their own defense. > > I think the community would be most interested to know: > > 1. Which board members agreed to the meeting on short notice? > 2. Which board members voted in favor of the motion and which against? > 3. Who tabled and who seconded the motion? > 4. What was the nature and extent of deliberations? > 5. Why the urgency to act so swiftly after the judge set aside the order? > 6. When was the meeting noticed? > 7. When did the meeting take place? > 8. How/where did the meeting take place? > > Regards, > Paul Wollner > > > > > > > ---- On Thu, 08 Jul 2021 23:14:18 +0200 Eddy Kayihura> wrote ---- > > Dear Colleagues, > > AFRINIC hereby informs all those concerned that it has initiated actions for the reclamation of Internet number resources from Cloud Innovation Ltd. > > On 07 July 2021, the Supreme Court of Mauritius delivered a judgement whereby the application for injunction lodged by Cloud Innovation Ltd has been set aside. > > Consequently, on 08 July 2021, AFRINIC?s Board of Directors, whilst acting reasonably and in good faith, more so, in light of the judgment of the Supreme Court of Mauritius, found that Cloud Innovation Ltd failed to honour its obligations under the Registration Service Agreement and has thus decided to terminate the membership of Cloud Innovation Ltd as well as reclaim its number resources in the following manner: > > The resources previously allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd will be ?frozen? on the AFRINIC WHOIS database with Cloud Innovation Ltd no longer having access to the same. > > In order not to disrupt Internet connectivity of the relevant users especially in the current context of the COVID-19 pandemic, all affected users will exceptionally be granted a grace period of 90 days to consider other available options in their best interests. Consequently, the actual reclamation of the relevant number resources will occur following the expiry of the grace period. > > > Eddy Kayihura > Chief Executive Officer, > African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) > ceo at afrinic.net > ?????????????????????????????????.. > > > Chers coll?gues, > > AFRINIC informe toutes les personnes concern?es qu'elle a entam? des actions de r?clamation des ressources de num?ros Internet aupr?s de Cloud Innovation Ltd. > > Le 07 juillet 2021, la Cour Supr?me de Maurice a rendu un jugement par lequel la demande d'injonction d?pos?e par Cloud Innovation Ltd a ?t? rejet?e. > > En cons?quence, le 08 juillet 2021, le Conseil d'administration d'AFRINIC, tout en agissant raisonnablement et de bonne foi, et plus encore, ? la lumi?re du jugement de la Cour Supr?me de Maurice, a constat? que Cloud Innovation Ltd n'a pas honor? ses obligations en vertu du Contrat de Service d'Enregistrement et a donc d?cid? de r?silier l'adh?sion de Cloud Innovation Ltd ainsi que de r?clamer ses ressources de num?ros Internet de la mani?re suivante : > > Les ressources pr?c?demment attribu?es ? Cloud Innovation Ltd seront "gel?es" dans la base de donn?es WHOIS d'AFRINIC et Cloud Innovation Ltd n'y aura plus acc?s. > Afin de ne pas interrompre la connectivit? Internet des utilisateurs concern?s, notamment dans le contexte actuel de la pand?mie de COVID-19, tous les utilisateurs concern?s b?n?ficieront exceptionnellement d'une p?riode de gr?ce de 90 jours pour envisager d'autres options disponibles dans leur int?r?t. Par cons?quent, la r?clamation effective des ressources num?riques concern?es aura lieu apr?s l'expiration de la p?riode de gr?ce. > > > Eddy Kayihura > Chief Executive Officer, > African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) > ceo at afrinic.net > ??????????????. > > > ?????? ???????? > > > ????? AFRINIC ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ???????? ????? ????? ???????? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd. > > ?? 07 ????? 2021 ? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? Cloud Innovation Ltd. > > ???????? ? ?? 08 ????? 2021 ? ??? ???? ????? AFRINIC ? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????????? ? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd ???? ?? ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???????? ???? ????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ???????: > > ???? "?????" ??????? ??????? ?????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?? ????? ?????? AFRINIC WHOIS ? ??? ?? ??? ?????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?????? ?????. > > ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? COVID-19 ? ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ????? 90 ????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????. ???????? ? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????. > > Eddy Kayihura > Chief Executive Officer, > African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) > ceo at afrinic.net > ???????????. > > > Caros Colegas, > > > AFRINIC informa todos os interessados que iniciou ac??es para a recupera??o de recursos de n?meros de Internet da Cloud Innovation Ltd. > > Em 07 de Julho de 2021, o Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias proferiu uma senten?a pela qual o pedido de injun??o apresentado pela Cloud Innovation Ltd foi anulado. > > Consequentemente, a 08 de Julho de 2021, o Conselho de Administra??o da AFRINIC, embora agindo razoavelmente e de boa f?, mais ainda, ? luz do ac?rd?o do Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias, considerou que a Cloud Innovation Ltd n?o honrou as suas obriga??es ao abrigo do Acordo de Servi?o de Registo, tendo assim decidido p?r termo ? ades?o da Cloud Innovation Ltd, bem como reclamar os seus recursos num?ricos da seguinte forma: > > Os recursos anteriormente atribu?dos ? Cloud Innovation Ltd ser?o "congelados" na base de dados AFRINIC WHOIS, tendo a Cloud Innovation Ltd deixado de ter acesso ? mesma. > A fim de n?o perturbar a conectividade Internet dos utilizadores relevantes, especialmente no actual contexto da pandemia COVID-19, todos os utilizadores afectados ter?o excepcionalmente um per?odo de gra?a de 90 dias para considerar outras op??es dispon?veis no seu melhor interesse. Consequentemente, a recupera??o efectiva dos recursos num?ricos relevantes ocorrer? ap?s o termo do per?odo de car?ncia. > > Eddy Kayihura > Chief Executive Officer, > African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) > ceo at afrinic.net > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From silber.mike at gmail.com Fri Jul 9 09:06:29 2021 From: silber.mike at gmail.com (Mike Silber) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 11:06:29 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number resources In-Reply-To: References: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> <17a8a05c244.11c7dce2698390.4816319699309652547@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: I must say - the selective approach by some on this list is quite astounding and rather transparent. AfriNIC?s board minutes are poor and have been for many years. They are now thankfully published more frequently - which is appreciated. However the quality is (to my mind) still rather poor. This was raised several years ago and did not get much traction. As I recall it was deferred to the Governance Committee who (AFAIR) have not (not yet) looked into the issue (Disclaimer - I served a term on the governance committee and we did not get round to looking at the issue). So I largely agree with Owen?s comments below and would expect that agendas are published before meetings, the minutes reflect all discussion, board papers are published, votes are recorded ?. and a host of other possible improvements. However, this sudden interest in the quality of board minutes and voting records (when the community has been silent on the issue for years) strikes me as self-serving and quite possibly a thinly veiled attempt to obstruct and intimidate. I would support a general request for an improvement in the quality fo board minutes - but not this current tactic! Mike > On 9 Jul 2021, at 10:29, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: > > Daniel, > > With all due respect, no, we don?t. The voting record of board members in all matters AFRINIC > is a perfectly valid thing to consider when they come up for re-election and should be a matter > of public record. > > The members have a right to know how the board is acting on their behalf and they have a right > to know which board members are acting in what way during board meetings. > > Everything requested should absolutely be part of the published minutes which the community > and board agreed should be public several years ago. > > There are no privacy rights of the board as a body and the board members have no right or > expectation of privacy in board actions. The only exception should be privileged or executive > sessions, such as those dealing with personnel matters (e.g. the firing of the CEO, salaries, etc.). > > This motion should not fall within that criteria since the member in question was not invited to present > a defense and was not in attendance at the meeting. > > Owen > >> On Jul 8, 2021, at 23:55 , DANIEL NANGHAKA > wrote: >> >> Dear Paul, >> >> I don't think who voted is of importance to the community. We need to protect the privacy of the board members. >> >> The information you are requesting for infringes on privacy rights of the board. >> >> Otherwise, thanks for your concern. >> >> Daniel Nanghaka >> >> On Fri, Jul 9, 2021, 9:49 AM Paul Wollner > wrote: >> To whom it may concern, >> >> I believe the community would be most interested to see the notice, attendance, and voting >> record of the recent board meeting where Cloud Innovation?s membership was summarily >> terminated without notice and without opportunity to respond or appear in their own defense. >> >> I think the community would be most interested to know: >> >> 1. Which board members agreed to the meeting on short notice? >> 2. Which board members voted in favor of the motion and which against? >> 3. Who tabled and who seconded the motion? >> 4. What was the nature and extent of deliberations? >> 5. Why the urgency to act so swiftly after the judge set aside the order? >> 6. When was the meeting noticed? >> 7. When did the meeting take place? >> 8. How/where did the meeting take place? >> >> Regards, >> Paul Wollner >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---- On Thu, 08 Jul 2021 23:14:18 +0200 Eddy Kayihura> wrote ---- >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> AFRINIC hereby informs all those concerned that it has initiated actions for the reclamation of Internet number resources from Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> On 07 July 2021, the Supreme Court of Mauritius delivered a judgement whereby the application for injunction lodged by Cloud Innovation Ltd has been set aside. >> >> Consequently, on 08 July 2021, AFRINIC?s Board of Directors, whilst acting reasonably and in good faith, more so, in light of the judgment of the Supreme Court of Mauritius, found that Cloud Innovation Ltd failed to honour its obligations under the Registration Service Agreement and has thus decided to terminate the membership of Cloud Innovation Ltd as well as reclaim its number resources in the following manner: >> >> The resources previously allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd will be ?frozen? on the AFRINIC WHOIS database with Cloud Innovation Ltd no longer having access to the same. >> >> In order not to disrupt Internet connectivity of the relevant users especially in the current context of the COVID-19 pandemic, all affected users will exceptionally be granted a grace period of 90 days to consider other available options in their best interests. Consequently, the actual reclamation of the relevant number resources will occur following the expiry of the grace period. >> >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >> ceo at afrinic.net >> ?????????????????????????????????.. >> >> >> Chers coll?gues, >> >> AFRINIC informe toutes les personnes concern?es qu'elle a entam? des actions de r?clamation des ressources de num?ros Internet aupr?s de Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> Le 07 juillet 2021, la Cour Supr?me de Maurice a rendu un jugement par lequel la demande d'injonction d?pos?e par Cloud Innovation Ltd a ?t? rejet?e. >> >> En cons?quence, le 08 juillet 2021, le Conseil d'administration d'AFRINIC, tout en agissant raisonnablement et de bonne foi, et plus encore, ? la lumi?re du jugement de la Cour Supr?me de Maurice, a constat? que Cloud Innovation Ltd n'a pas honor? ses obligations en vertu du Contrat de Service d'Enregistrement et a donc d?cid? de r?silier l'adh?sion de Cloud Innovation Ltd ainsi que de r?clamer ses ressources de num?ros Internet de la mani?re suivante : >> >> Les ressources pr?c?demment attribu?es ? Cloud Innovation Ltd seront "gel?es" dans la base de donn?es WHOIS d'AFRINIC et Cloud Innovation Ltd n'y aura plus acc?s. >> Afin de ne pas interrompre la connectivit? Internet des utilisateurs concern?s, notamment dans le contexte actuel de la pand?mie de COVID-19, tous les utilisateurs concern?s b?n?ficieront exceptionnellement d'une p?riode de gr?ce de 90 jours pour envisager d'autres options disponibles dans leur int?r?t. Par cons?quent, la r?clamation effective des ressources num?riques concern?es aura lieu apr?s l'expiration de la p?riode de gr?ce. >> >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >> ceo at afrinic.net >> ??????????????. >> >> >> ?????? ???????? >> >> >> ????? AFRINIC ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ???????? ????? ????? ???????? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> ?? 07 ????? 2021 ? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> ???????? ? ?? 08 ????? 2021 ? ??? ???? ????? AFRINIC ? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????????? ? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd ???? ?? ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???????? ???? ????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ???????: >> >> ???? "?????" ??????? ??????? ?????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?? ????? ?????? AFRINIC WHOIS ? ??? ?? ??? ?????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?????? ?????. >> >> ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? COVID-19 ? ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ????? 90 ????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????. ???????? ? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????. >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >> ceo at afrinic.net >> ???????????. >> >> >> Caros Colegas, >> >> >> AFRINIC informa todos os interessados que iniciou ac??es para a recupera??o de recursos de n?meros de Internet da Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> Em 07 de Julho de 2021, o Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias proferiu uma senten?a pela qual o pedido de injun??o apresentado pela Cloud Innovation Ltd foi anulado. >> >> Consequentemente, a 08 de Julho de 2021, o Conselho de Administra??o da AFRINIC, embora agindo razoavelmente e de boa f?, mais ainda, ? luz do ac?rd?o do Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias, considerou que a Cloud Innovation Ltd n?o honrou as suas obriga??es ao abrigo do Acordo de Servi?o de Registo, tendo assim decidido p?r termo ? ades?o da Cloud Innovation Ltd, bem como reclamar os seus recursos num?ricos da seguinte forma: >> >> Os recursos anteriormente atribu?dos ? Cloud Innovation Ltd ser?o "congelados" na base de dados AFRINIC WHOIS, tendo a Cloud Innovation Ltd deixado de ter acesso ? mesma. >> A fim de n?o perturbar a conectividade Internet dos utilizadores relevantes, especialmente no actual contexto da pandemia COVID-19, todos os utilizadores afectados ter?o excepcionalmente um per?odo de gra?a de 90 dias para considerar outras op??es dispon?veis no seu melhor interesse. Consequentemente, a recupera??o efectiva dos recursos num?ricos relevantes ocorrer? ap?s o termo do per?odo de car?ncia. >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >> ceo at afrinic.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Fri Jul 9 11:08:35 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 04:08:35 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number resources In-Reply-To: References: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> <17a8a05c244.11c7dce2698390.4816319699309652547@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: It?s not unusual for people to pay more attention when something affects them. If you will review the record, you will easily find that I was one of the people calling for greater transparency and greater board accountability starting many years ago prior to the formation of the GC. You will also find that I was one of the most vocal proponents of the idea of publishing the board minutes and that I had little sympathy for the board?s claim that there was a need for a lengthy review and redaction process prior to publication of the old minutes. I admit I haven?t reviewed the board minutes until now as I?ve not encountered a prior situation where they are directly relevant to what I was doing, so I was unaware of the generally poor quality that you report here. Nonetheless, this is (at least for my part) a genuine desire to know what happened and how. Claiming that it is an attempt to intimidate (how?) strikes me as absurd. Claiming that it is an attempt to obstruct strikes me as quite a stretch and a bit of fear mongering. If the board is intimidated by a mere question about how they voted and a request for some notes about their deliberations, then I seriously question their ability to do the job of board members. My expectation is that this is not the case and that there should be no issue getting the answers to the questions asked, which you have already agreed should generally be published for all board meetings. Owen > On Jul 9, 2021, at 02:06 , Mike Silber wrote: > > I must say - the selective approach by some on this list is quite astounding and rather transparent. > > AfriNIC?s board minutes are poor and have been for many years. They are now thankfully published more frequently - which is appreciated. However the quality is (to my mind) still rather poor. > > This was raised several years ago and did not get much traction. As I recall it was deferred to the Governance Committee who (AFAIR) have not (not yet) looked into the issue (Disclaimer - I served a term on the governance committee and we did not get round to looking at the issue). > > So I largely agree with Owen?s comments below and would expect that agendas are published before meetings, the minutes reflect all discussion, board papers are published, votes are recorded ?. and a host of other possible improvements. > > However, this sudden interest in the quality of board minutes and voting records (when the community has been silent on the issue for years) strikes me as self-serving and quite possibly a thinly veiled attempt to obstruct and intimidate. > > I would support a general request for an improvement in the quality fo board minutes - but not this current tactic! > > Mike > > >> On 9 Jul 2021, at 10:29, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: >> >> Daniel, >> >> With all due respect, no, we don?t. The voting record of board members in all matters AFRINIC >> is a perfectly valid thing to consider when they come up for re-election and should be a matter >> of public record. >> >> The members have a right to know how the board is acting on their behalf and they have a right >> to know which board members are acting in what way during board meetings. >> >> Everything requested should absolutely be part of the published minutes which the community >> and board agreed should be public several years ago. >> >> There are no privacy rights of the board as a body and the board members have no right or >> expectation of privacy in board actions. The only exception should be privileged or executive >> sessions, such as those dealing with personnel matters (e.g. the firing of the CEO, salaries, etc.). >> >> This motion should not fall within that criteria since the member in question was not invited to present >> a defense and was not in attendance at the meeting. >> >> Owen >> >>> On Jul 8, 2021, at 23:55 , DANIEL NANGHAKA > wrote: >>> >>> Dear Paul, >>> >>> I don't think who voted is of importance to the community. We need to protect the privacy of the board members. >>> >>> The information you are requesting for infringes on privacy rights of the board. >>> >>> Otherwise, thanks for your concern. >>> >>> Daniel Nanghaka >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2021, 9:49 AM Paul Wollner > wrote: >>> To whom it may concern, >>> >>> I believe the community would be most interested to see the notice, attendance, and voting >>> record of the recent board meeting where Cloud Innovation?s membership was summarily >>> terminated without notice and without opportunity to respond or appear in their own defense. >>> >>> I think the community would be most interested to know: >>> >>> 1. Which board members agreed to the meeting on short notice? >>> 2. Which board members voted in favor of the motion and which against? >>> 3. Who tabled and who seconded the motion? >>> 4. What was the nature and extent of deliberations? >>> 5. Why the urgency to act so swiftly after the judge set aside the order? >>> 6. When was the meeting noticed? >>> 7. When did the meeting take place? >>> 8. How/where did the meeting take place? >>> >>> Regards, >>> Paul Wollner >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---- On Thu, 08 Jul 2021 23:14:18 +0200 Eddy Kayihura> wrote ---- >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> AFRINIC hereby informs all those concerned that it has initiated actions for the reclamation of Internet number resources from Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>> >>> On 07 July 2021, the Supreme Court of Mauritius delivered a judgement whereby the application for injunction lodged by Cloud Innovation Ltd has been set aside. >>> >>> Consequently, on 08 July 2021, AFRINIC?s Board of Directors, whilst acting reasonably and in good faith, more so, in light of the judgment of the Supreme Court of Mauritius, found that Cloud Innovation Ltd failed to honour its obligations under the Registration Service Agreement and has thus decided to terminate the membership of Cloud Innovation Ltd as well as reclaim its number resources in the following manner: >>> >>> The resources previously allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd will be ?frozen? on the AFRINIC WHOIS database with Cloud Innovation Ltd no longer having access to the same. >>> >>> In order not to disrupt Internet connectivity of the relevant users especially in the current context of the COVID-19 pandemic, all affected users will exceptionally be granted a grace period of 90 days to consider other available options in their best interests. Consequently, the actual reclamation of the relevant number resources will occur following the expiry of the grace period. >>> >>> >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> Chief Executive Officer, >>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> ?????????????????????????????????.. >>> >>> >>> Chers coll?gues, >>> >>> AFRINIC informe toutes les personnes concern?es qu'elle a entam? des actions de r?clamation des ressources de num?ros Internet aupr?s de Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>> >>> Le 07 juillet 2021, la Cour Supr?me de Maurice a rendu un jugement par lequel la demande d'injonction d?pos?e par Cloud Innovation Ltd a ?t? rejet?e. >>> >>> En cons?quence, le 08 juillet 2021, le Conseil d'administration d'AFRINIC, tout en agissant raisonnablement et de bonne foi, et plus encore, ? la lumi?re du jugement de la Cour Supr?me de Maurice, a constat? que Cloud Innovation Ltd n'a pas honor? ses obligations en vertu du Contrat de Service d'Enregistrement et a donc d?cid? de r?silier l'adh?sion de Cloud Innovation Ltd ainsi que de r?clamer ses ressources de num?ros Internet de la mani?re suivante : >>> >>> Les ressources pr?c?demment attribu?es ? Cloud Innovation Ltd seront "gel?es" dans la base de donn?es WHOIS d'AFRINIC et Cloud Innovation Ltd n'y aura plus acc?s. >>> Afin de ne pas interrompre la connectivit? Internet des utilisateurs concern?s, notamment dans le contexte actuel de la pand?mie de COVID-19, tous les utilisateurs concern?s b?n?ficieront exceptionnellement d'une p?riode de gr?ce de 90 jours pour envisager d'autres options disponibles dans leur int?r?t. Par cons?quent, la r?clamation effective des ressources num?riques concern?es aura lieu apr?s l'expiration de la p?riode de gr?ce. >>> >>> >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> Chief Executive Officer, >>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> ??????????????. >>> >>> >>> ?????? ???????? >>> >>> >>> ????? AFRINIC ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ???????? ????? ????? ???????? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>> >>> ?? 07 ????? 2021 ? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>> >>> ???????? ? ?? 08 ????? 2021 ? ??? ???? ????? AFRINIC ? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????????? ? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd ???? ?? ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???????? ???? ????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ???????: >>> >>> ???? "?????" ??????? ??????? ?????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?? ????? ?????? AFRINIC WHOIS ? ??? ?? ??? ?????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?????? ?????. >>> >>> ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? COVID-19 ? ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ????? 90 ????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????. ???????? ? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????. >>> >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> Chief Executive Officer, >>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> ???????????. >>> >>> >>> Caros Colegas, >>> >>> >>> AFRINIC informa todos os interessados que iniciou ac??es para a recupera??o de recursos de n?meros de Internet da Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>> >>> Em 07 de Julho de 2021, o Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias proferiu uma senten?a pela qual o pedido de injun??o apresentado pela Cloud Innovation Ltd foi anulado. >>> >>> Consequentemente, a 08 de Julho de 2021, o Conselho de Administra??o da AFRINIC, embora agindo razoavelmente e de boa f?, mais ainda, ? luz do ac?rd?o do Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias, considerou que a Cloud Innovation Ltd n?o honrou as suas obriga??es ao abrigo do Acordo de Servi?o de Registo, tendo assim decidido p?r termo ? ades?o da Cloud Innovation Ltd, bem como reclamar os seus recursos num?ricos da seguinte forma: >>> >>> Os recursos anteriormente atribu?dos ? Cloud Innovation Ltd ser?o "congelados" na base de dados AFRINIC WHOIS, tendo a Cloud Innovation Ltd deixado de ter acesso ? mesma. >>> A fim de n?o perturbar a conectividade Internet dos utilizadores relevantes, especialmente no actual contexto da pandemia COVID-19, todos os utilizadores afectados ter?o excepcionalmente um per?odo de gra?a de 90 dias para considerar outras op??es dispon?veis no seu melhor interesse. Consequentemente, a recupera??o efectiva dos recursos num?ricos relevantes ocorrer? ap?s o termo do per?odo de car?ncia. >>> >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> Chief Executive Officer, >>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Fri Jul 9 11:14:32 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 04:14:32 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM In-Reply-To: References: <17a3d21fad1.bd552ba1206303.7060355078460728919@africaoncloud.net> <22919.1624534197@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <7DFE61F1-1FDE-4F53-AC41-B95D4CB4A9F7@delong.com> <54039702-37B2-429C-9377-A95EAA9E719E@gmail.com> <2C43F55B-7352-4083-8674-EF3A07BB4A1D@delong.com> <92FD5D58-716C-4C8D-8CA8-69D048830201@pch.net> <3B5DEE07-3D4A-46A6-8D2E-8E3AD310E4D6@delong.com> <5DB31606-7E3B-4DCF-A551-24F2EBA6D818@delong.com> Message-ID: <9C4BD3BB-734F-48E7-8BB1-38FF115BCA83@delong.com> > On Jul 4, 2021, at 03:53 , Noah wrote: > > Hi Mimi, > > On Sun, 4 Jul 2021, 13:36 Mimi dy, > wrote: > Hello Noah, > > As I stressed above, an AFRINIC member who provides internet connectivity within the AFRICAN region and helps maintain a stable and accessible internet, > > I know resource members with ASN, IPv4 and IPv6 integers doing exactly what you are describing above. > > while also legitimately running a brokerage business, > > They don't run brokerage business and the reason is because they requested INR based on a need to number their own infrastcture and that of their customers whom they provide a wide range of IP related services. > > None of those service include IPv$ brokerage. Some do. I think based on what you say below, you misunderstand the meaning of ?brokerage?. > should not be subject to membership termination. > > AFRINIC has publicly stated that they have never allocated IPv4 space to members for the purpose of brokerage services which involves leasing as per below link. > > https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-February/003907.html Leasing is NOT brokerage. Brokerage is an organization which specializes in connecting those with addresses they no longer need and wish to monetize to those with a need for addresses who are willing to pay for them. Brokers deal almost exclusively in sales of addresses and (with very rare exception) are not directly supplying addresses to the market themselves. Examples of brokerages include IPv4Marketgroup, Hilco Streambank, Addrex, and many others. None of the major brokers is dealing in addresses issued to them by an RIR, but rather acting much like a real estate agent, having a customer on the sell side and a customer on the buy side and helping the two of them work out the transaction and work it through the RIR system as needed. > That being said, AFRINIC might lose an active and efficient member that highly contributes to the development of the region. > > Which member are you referring to? I?m pretty sure her example is hypothetical, but her point is still valid. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From silber.mike at gmail.com Fri Jul 9 11:27:56 2021 From: silber.mike at gmail.com (Mike Silber) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 13:27:56 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number resources In-Reply-To: References: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> <17a8a05c244.11c7dce2698390.4816319699309652547@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: <17D47571-0527-4D86-9056-68BEEF564ABF@gmail.com> Hi Owen I was not specifically responding to your comments and in fact I agreed with several of them. Apologies if I did not make it clear. The board minutes have improved a lot ?. but can use a lot more work. The practice of publishing resolutions prior to the minutes being published is also a very good practice - though it may not be satisfying to you and others, as it lacks some of the detail you seem to seek. Thank you for confirming that this issue is directly relevant to you (I assume as a consultant to Cloud Innovation?). Mr Wollner and others have not been as forthright in disclosing their interests ?. leading to speculation. My concern about possible hypocrisy related to this list of questions and the astroturfing that has succeeded it: >>>> Which board members agreed to the meeting on short notice? How does Mr Wollner know it was at short notice? It may have been a regular meeting for all he knows. >>>> 2. Which board members voted in favor of the motion and which against? This is never disclosed in minutes. Why is it now relevant but was not a month or a year ago? >>>> 3. Who tabled and who seconded the motion? This will appear in the minutes in due course. Why the need for it to be provided on an expedited basis? >>>> 4. What was the nature and extent of deliberations? This will appear in the minutes in due course. Why the need for it to be provided on an expedited basis? >>>> 5. Why the urgency to act so swiftly after the judge set aside the order? This may appear in the minutes in due course. The minutes are not uniform in their level of detail. Why the need for it to be provided on an expedited basis? >>>> 6. When was the meeting noticed? This has not appeared in any minutes to date. Why is it now relevant but was not a month or a year ago? >>>> 7. When did the meeting take place? This will appear in the minutes in due course. Why the need for it to be provided on an expedited basis? >>>> 8. How/where did the meeting take place? This will appear in the minutes in due course. Why the need for it to be provided on an expedited basis? Mike > On 9 Jul 2021, at 13:08, Owen DeLong wrote: > > It?s not unusual for people to pay more attention when something affects them. > > If you will review the record, you will easily find that I was one of the people calling for greater transparency > and greater board accountability starting many years ago prior to the formation of the GC. You will also find > that I was one of the most vocal proponents of the idea of publishing the board minutes and that I had > little sympathy for the board?s claim that there was a need for a lengthy review and redaction process > prior to publication of the old minutes. > > I admit I haven?t reviewed the board minutes until now as I?ve not encountered a prior situation where > they are directly relevant to what I was doing, so I was unaware of the generally poor quality that you > report here. > > Nonetheless, this is (at least for my part) a genuine desire to know what happened and how. > > Claiming that it is an attempt to intimidate (how?) strikes me as absurd. > > Claiming that it is an attempt to obstruct strikes me as quite a stretch and a bit of fear mongering. > > If the board is intimidated by a mere question about how they voted and a request for some notes > about their deliberations, then I seriously question their ability to do the job of board members. > My expectation is that this is not the case and that there should be no issue getting the answers > to the questions asked, which you have already agreed should generally be published for all > board meetings. > > Owen > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com Fri Jul 9 11:52:27 2021 From: ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com (Anthony Ubah) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 07:52:27 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number resources In-Reply-To: References: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> <17a8a05c244.11c7dce2698390.4816319699309652547@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: +1 @Owen DeLong Apt. I really find it difficult to understand why a call for some measure of transparency is an issue here. For an organization built on the foundation of "Trust" and "Transparency" an inquiry like this should be responded to with smooth and prompt responses. Query on privacy clearly goes against the very principles of that very foundation. @Mike Silber It's really not out of place for people to stand at opposite ends of the table view-wise, in oppinon or in ideology, and stay consistently so. It shouldn't baffle anyone, it is human nature. There isn't a rule of thumb that says that an issue must remain on the top burner until it strikes a chord, as is natural. Anything can trigger a spike. It is within the purview of every single member of the community to call make inquiries or to call the Board/members' inadequacies or " the quality of board minutes and voting records" into question at any time they feel the itch to do so, not necessarily at specific scheduled windows. In this case, Paul's inquiry into this is his spike, and he reserves the right to do so. *Best Regards,* *Anthony Ubah * On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 4:32 AM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > Daniel, > > With all due respect, no, we don?t. The voting record of board members in > all matters AFRINIC > is a perfectly valid thing to consider when they come up for re-election > and should be a matter > of public record. > > The members have a right to know how the board is acting on their behalf > and they have a right > to know which board members are acting in what way during board meetings. > > Everything requested should absolutely be part of the published minutes > which the community > and board agreed should be public several years ago. > > There are no privacy rights of the board as a body and the board members > have no right or > expectation of privacy in board actions. The only exception should be > privileged or executive > sessions, such as those dealing with personnel matters (e.g. the firing of > the CEO, salaries, etc.). > > This motion should not fall within that criteria since the member in > question was not invited to present > a defense and was not in attendance at the meeting. > > Owen > > On Jul 8, 2021, at 23:55 , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > > Dear Paul, > > I don't think who voted is of importance to the community. We need to > protect the privacy of the board members. > > The information you are requesting for infringes on privacy rights of the > board. > > Otherwise, thanks for your concern. > > Daniel Nanghaka > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021, 9:49 AM Paul Wollner > wrote: > >> To whom it may concern, >> >> I believe the community would be most interested to see the notice, >> attendance, and voting >> record of the recent board meeting where Cloud Innovation?s membership >> was summarily >> terminated without notice and without opportunity to respond or appear in >> their own defense. >> >> I think the community would be most interested to know: >> >> 1. Which board members agreed to the meeting on short notice? >> 2. Which board members voted in favor of the motion and which against? >> 3. Who tabled and who seconded the motion? >> 4. What was the nature and extent of deliberations? >> 5. Why the urgency to act so swiftly after the judge set aside the >> order? >> 6. When was the meeting noticed? >> 7. When did the meeting take place? >> 8. How/where did the meeting take place? >> >> Regards, >> Paul Wollner >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---- On Thu, 08 Jul 2021 23:14:18 +0200 Eddy Kayihura >> wrote ---- >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> AFRINIC hereby informs all those concerned that it has initiated actions >> for the reclamation of Internet number resources from Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> On 07 July 2021, the Supreme Court of Mauritius delivered a judgement >> whereby the application for injunction lodged by Cloud Innovation Ltd has >> been set aside. >> >> Consequently, on 08 July 2021, AFRINIC?s Board of Directors, whilst >> acting reasonably and in good faith, more so, in light of the judgment of >> the Supreme Court of Mauritius, found that Cloud Innovation Ltd failed to >> honour its obligations under the Registration Service Agreement and has >> thus decided to terminate the membership of Cloud Innovation Ltd as well >> as reclaim its number resources in the following manner: >> >> - The resources previously allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd will be >> ?frozen? on the AFRINIC WHOIS database with Cloud Innovation Ltd no longer >> having access to the same. >> >> - >> >> In order not to disrupt Internet connectivity of the relevant users >> especially in the current context of the COVID-19 pandemic, all affected >> users will exceptionally be granted a grace period of 90 days to consider >> other available options in their best interests. Consequently, the actual >> reclamation of the relevant number resources will occur following the >> expiry of the grace period. >> >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >> ceo at afrinic.net >> >> ?????????????????????????????????.. >> >> Chers coll?gues, >> >> AFRINIC informe toutes les personnes concern?es qu'elle a entam? des >> actions de r?clamation des ressources de num?ros Internet aupr?s de Cloud >> Innovation Ltd. >> >> Le 07 juillet 2021, la Cour Supr?me de Maurice a rendu un jugement par >> lequel la demande d'injonction d?pos?e par Cloud Innovation Ltd a ?t? >> rejet?e. >> >> En cons?quence, le 08 juillet 2021, le Conseil d'administration >> d'AFRINIC, tout en agissant raisonnablement et de bonne foi, et plus >> encore, ? la lumi?re du jugement de la Cour Supr?me de Maurice, a constat? >> que Cloud Innovation Ltd n'a pas honor? ses obligations en vertu du Contrat >> de Service d'Enregistrement et a donc d?cid? de r?silier l'adh?sion de >> Cloud Innovation Ltd ainsi que de r?clamer ses ressources de num?ros >> Internet de la mani?re suivante : >> >> - Les ressources pr?c?demment attribu?es ? Cloud Innovation Ltd >> seront "gel?es" dans la base de donn?es WHOIS d'AFRINIC et Cloud Innovation >> Ltd n'y aura plus acc?s. >> - >> >> Afin de ne pas interrompre la connectivit? Internet des utilisateurs >> concern?s, notamment dans le contexte actuel de la pand?mie de COVID-19, >> tous les utilisateurs concern?s b?n?ficieront exceptionnellement d'une >> p?riode de gr?ce de 90 jours pour envisager d'autres options disponibles >> dans leur int?r?t. Par cons?quent, la r?clamation effective des ressources >> num?riques concern?es aura lieu apr?s l'expiration de la p?riode de gr?ce. >> >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >> ceo at afrinic.net >> >> ??????????????. >> >> ?????? ???????? >> >> ????? AFRINIC ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? >> ???????? ????? ????? ???????? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> ?? 07 ????? 2021 ? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? >> ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> ???????? ? ?? 08 ????? 2021 ? ??? ???? ????? AFRINIC ? ????? ????? ???? >> ????? ????? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????????? ? ?? Cloud Innovation >> Ltd ???? ?? ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???????? ???? >> ????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ???????? >> ???????: >> >> ???? "?????" ??????? ??????? ?????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?? ????? >> ?????? AFRINIC WHOIS ? ??? ?? ??? ?????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?????? ?????. >> >> ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? >> ?????? ????? COVID-19 ? ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ???? ???????? >> ???? ???? ????? 90 ????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? >> ??????. ???????? ? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??? >> ?????? ???? ??????. >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >> ceo at afrinic.net >> >> ???????????. >> >> Caros Colegas, >> >> AFRINIC informa todos os interessados que iniciou ac??es para a >> recupera??o de recursos de n?meros de Internet da Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> Em 07 de Julho de 2021, o Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias proferiu uma >> senten?a pela qual o pedido de injun??o apresentado pela Cloud Innovation >> Ltd foi anulado. >> >> Consequentemente, a 08 de Julho de 2021, o Conselho de Administra??o da >> AFRINIC, embora agindo razoavelmente e de boa f?, mais ainda, ? luz do >> ac?rd?o do Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias, considerou que a Cloud >> Innovation Ltd n?o honrou as suas obriga??es ao abrigo do Acordo de Servi?o >> de Registo, tendo assim decidido p?r termo ? ades?o da Cloud Innovation >> Ltd, bem como reclamar os seus recursos num?ricos da seguinte forma: >> >> - Os recursos anteriormente atribu?dos ? Cloud Innovation Ltd ser?o >> "congelados" na base de dados AFRINIC WHOIS, tendo a Cloud Innovation Ltd >> deixado de ter acesso ? mesma. >> - >> >> A fim de n?o perturbar a conectividade Internet dos utilizadores >> relevantes, especialmente no actual contexto da pandemia COVID-19, todos os >> utilizadores afectados ter?o excepcionalmente um per?odo de gra?a de 90 >> dias para considerar outras op??es dispon?veis no seu melhor interesse. >> Consequentemente, a recupera??o efectiva dos recursos num?ricos relevantes >> ocorrer? ap?s o termo do per?odo de car?ncia. >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >> ceo at afrinic.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dym5328 at gmail.com Fri Jul 9 12:29:34 2021 From: dym5328 at gmail.com (Mimi dy) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 13:29:34 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number resources In-Reply-To: References: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> <17a8a05c244.11c7dce2698390.4816319699309652547@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Hello all, I share the same view as Owen and Anthony. I really fail to understand why a "member-based organization" like AFRINIC is rejecting "community members' " request for some information which is originally supposed to be disclosed to all stakeholders. All I see here is a clear abandonment of AFRINIC's core principles: OPENNESS, TRANSPARENCY, FAIRNESS. Nothing is fair and transparent about the way AFRINIC tackles the community's concerns/requests. I feel like we should not even be having this whole discussion. From my understanding, an RIR exists because of the community, how is it now imposing insensitive rules, compromising the foundation of the Global Internet, and concealing info that is bound to be at the disposal of the community under any circumstances? First, Paul's queries remain unaddressed, then, normal requests are being rejected due to ambiguous privacy and disclosure reasons. We urge AFRINIC's staff for clarifications on these matters. Best regards. Le ven. 9 juil. 2021 ? 12:53, Anthony Ubah a ?crit : > +1 @Owen DeLong > Apt. > > I really find it difficult to understand why a call for some measure of > transparency is an issue here. > For an organization built on the foundation of "Trust" and "Transparency" > an inquiry like this should be responded to with smooth and prompt > responses. > Query on privacy clearly goes against the very principles of that very > foundation. > > @Mike Silber > It's really not out of place for people to stand at opposite ends of the > table view-wise, in oppinon or in ideology, and stay consistently so. It > shouldn't baffle anyone, it is human nature. > There isn't a rule of thumb that says that an issue must remain on the top > burner until it strikes a chord, as is natural. Anything can trigger a > spike. It is within the purview of every single member of the community to > call make inquiries or to call the Board/members' inadequacies or " the > quality of board minutes and voting records" into question at any time they > feel the itch to do so, not necessarily at specific scheduled windows. In > this case, Paul's inquiry into this is his spike, and he reserves the right > to do so. > > > *Best Regards,* > > *Anthony Ubah * > > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 4:32 AM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > >> Daniel, >> >> With all due respect, no, we don?t. The voting record of board members in >> all matters AFRINIC >> is a perfectly valid thing to consider when they come up for re-election >> and should be a matter >> of public record. >> >> The members have a right to know how the board is acting on their behalf >> and they have a right >> to know which board members are acting in what way during board meetings. >> >> Everything requested should absolutely be part of the published minutes >> which the community >> and board agreed should be public several years ago. >> >> There are no privacy rights of the board as a body and the board members >> have no right or >> expectation of privacy in board actions. The only exception should be >> privileged or executive >> sessions, such as those dealing with personnel matters (e.g. the firing >> of the CEO, salaries, etc.). >> >> This motion should not fall within that criteria since the member in >> question was not invited to present >> a defense and was not in attendance at the meeting. >> >> Owen >> >> On Jul 8, 2021, at 23:55 , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: >> >> Dear Paul, >> >> I don't think who voted is of importance to the community. We need to >> protect the privacy of the board members. >> >> The information you are requesting for infringes on privacy rights of the >> board. >> >> Otherwise, thanks for your concern. >> >> Daniel Nanghaka >> >> On Fri, Jul 9, 2021, 9:49 AM Paul Wollner >> wrote: >> >>> To whom it may concern, >>> >>> I believe the community would be most interested to see the notice, >>> attendance, and voting >>> record of the recent board meeting where Cloud Innovation?s membership >>> was summarily >>> terminated without notice and without opportunity to respond or appear >>> in their own defense. >>> >>> I think the community would be most interested to know: >>> >>> 1. Which board members agreed to the meeting on short notice? >>> 2. Which board members voted in favor of the motion and which >>> against? >>> 3. Who tabled and who seconded the motion? >>> 4. What was the nature and extent of deliberations? >>> 5. Why the urgency to act so swiftly after the judge set aside the >>> order? >>> 6. When was the meeting noticed? >>> 7. When did the meeting take place? >>> 8. How/where did the meeting take place? >>> >>> Regards, >>> Paul Wollner >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---- On Thu, 08 Jul 2021 23:14:18 +0200 Eddy Kayihura >>> wrote ---- >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> AFRINIC hereby informs all those concerned that it has initiated >>> actions for the reclamation of Internet number resources from Cloud >>> Innovation Ltd. >>> >>> On 07 July 2021, the Supreme Court of Mauritius delivered a judgement >>> whereby the application for injunction lodged by Cloud Innovation Ltd has >>> been set aside. >>> >>> Consequently, on 08 July 2021, AFRINIC?s Board of Directors, whilst >>> acting reasonably and in good faith, more so, in light of the judgment of >>> the Supreme Court of Mauritius, found that Cloud Innovation Ltd failed to >>> honour its obligations under the Registration Service Agreement and has >>> thus decided to terminate the membership of Cloud Innovation Ltd as >>> well as reclaim its number resources in the following manner: >>> >>> - The resources previously allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd will be >>> ?frozen? on the AFRINIC WHOIS database with Cloud Innovation Ltd no longer >>> having access to the same. >>> >>> - >>> >>> In order not to disrupt Internet connectivity of the relevant users >>> especially in the current context of the COVID-19 pandemic, all affected >>> users will exceptionally be granted a grace period of 90 days to consider >>> other available options in their best interests. Consequently, the actual >>> reclamation of the relevant number resources will occur following the >>> expiry of the grace period. >>> >>> >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> Chief Executive Officer, >>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> >>> ?????????????????????????????????.. >>> >>> Chers coll?gues, >>> >>> AFRINIC informe toutes les personnes concern?es qu'elle a entam? des >>> actions de r?clamation des ressources de num?ros Internet aupr?s de Cloud >>> Innovation Ltd. >>> >>> Le 07 juillet 2021, la Cour Supr?me de Maurice a rendu un jugement par >>> lequel la demande d'injonction d?pos?e par Cloud Innovation Ltd a ?t? >>> rejet?e. >>> >>> En cons?quence, le 08 juillet 2021, le Conseil d'administration >>> d'AFRINIC, tout en agissant raisonnablement et de bonne foi, et plus >>> encore, ? la lumi?re du jugement de la Cour Supr?me de Maurice, a constat? >>> que Cloud Innovation Ltd n'a pas honor? ses obligations en vertu du Contrat >>> de Service d'Enregistrement et a donc d?cid? de r?silier l'adh?sion de >>> Cloud Innovation Ltd ainsi que de r?clamer ses ressources de num?ros >>> Internet de la mani?re suivante : >>> >>> - Les ressources pr?c?demment attribu?es ? Cloud Innovation Ltd >>> seront "gel?es" dans la base de donn?es WHOIS d'AFRINIC et Cloud Innovation >>> Ltd n'y aura plus acc?s. >>> - >>> >>> Afin de ne pas interrompre la connectivit? Internet des utilisateurs >>> concern?s, notamment dans le contexte actuel de la pand?mie de COVID-19, >>> tous les utilisateurs concern?s b?n?ficieront exceptionnellement d'une >>> p?riode de gr?ce de 90 jours pour envisager d'autres options disponibles >>> dans leur int?r?t. Par cons?quent, la r?clamation effective des ressources >>> num?riques concern?es aura lieu apr?s l'expiration de la p?riode de gr?ce. >>> >>> >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> Chief Executive Officer, >>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> >>> ??????????????. >>> >>> ?????? ???????? >>> >>> ????? AFRINIC ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? >>> ???????? ????? ????? ???????? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>> >>> ?? 07 ????? 2021 ? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? >>> ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>> >>> ???????? ? ?? 08 ????? 2021 ? ??? ???? ????? AFRINIC ? ????? ????? ???? >>> ????? ????? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????????? ? ?? Cloud Innovation >>> Ltd ???? ?? ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???????? ???? >>> ????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ???????? >>> ???????: >>> >>> ???? "?????" ??????? ??????? ?????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?? ????? >>> ?????? AFRINIC WHOIS ? ??? ?? ??? ?????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?????? ?????. >>> >>> ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? >>> ?????? ????? COVID-19 ? ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ???? ???????? >>> ???? ???? ????? 90 ????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? >>> ??????. ???????? ? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??? >>> ?????? ???? ??????. >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> Chief Executive Officer, >>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> >>> ???????????. >>> >>> Caros Colegas, >>> >>> AFRINIC informa todos os interessados que iniciou ac??es para a >>> recupera??o de recursos de n?meros de Internet da Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>> >>> Em 07 de Julho de 2021, o Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias proferiu uma >>> senten?a pela qual o pedido de injun??o apresentado pela Cloud Innovation >>> Ltd foi anulado. >>> >>> Consequentemente, a 08 de Julho de 2021, o Conselho de Administra??o da >>> AFRINIC, embora agindo razoavelmente e de boa f?, mais ainda, ? luz do >>> ac?rd?o do Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias, considerou que a Cloud >>> Innovation Ltd n?o honrou as suas obriga??es ao abrigo do Acordo de Servi?o >>> de Registo, tendo assim decidido p?r termo ? ades?o da Cloud Innovation >>> Ltd, bem como reclamar os seus recursos num?ricos da seguinte forma: >>> >>> - Os recursos anteriormente atribu?dos ? Cloud Innovation Ltd ser?o >>> "congelados" na base de dados AFRINIC WHOIS, tendo a Cloud Innovation Ltd >>> deixado de ter acesso ? mesma. >>> - >>> >>> A fim de n?o perturbar a conectividade Internet dos utilizadores >>> relevantes, especialmente no actual contexto da pandemia COVID-19, todos os >>> utilizadores afectados ter?o excepcionalmente um per?odo de gra?a de 90 >>> dias para considerar outras op??es dispon?veis no seu melhor interesse. >>> Consequentemente, a recupera??o efectiva dos recursos num?ricos relevantes >>> ocorrer? ap?s o termo do per?odo de car?ncia. >>> >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> Chief Executive Officer, >>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Fri Jul 9 12:46:02 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 05:46:02 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number resources In-Reply-To: References: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> <17a8a05c244.11c7dce2698390.4816319699309652547@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: <1A1702D2-D37F-4944-8AE6-E17A5A3B0918@delong.com> I appreciate your support, but it?s not entirely fair to say that AFRINIC has refused this data as they have not yet responded. It was a community member (Daniel Nanghaka) who made the statement that I responded to, not AFRINIC staff. I?m all for calling AFRINIC out when they get it wrong or when they break their own rules and/or make up new arbitrary rules as they go, but there are plenty of times lately when they actually get it wrong, we don?t need to accuse them for things they have not done. Owen > On Jul 9, 2021, at 05:29 , Mimi dy wrote: > > Hello all, > > I share the same view as Owen and Anthony. I really fail to understand why a "member-based organization" like AFRINIC is rejecting "community members' " request for some information which is originally supposed to be disclosed to all stakeholders. All I see here is a clear abandonment of AFRINIC's core principles: OPENNESS, TRANSPARENCY, FAIRNESS. Nothing is fair and transparent about the way AFRINIC tackles the community's concerns/requests. > I feel like we should not even be having this whole discussion. >From my understanding, an RIR exists because of the community, how is it now imposing insensitive rules, compromising the foundation of the Global Internet, and concealing info that is bound to be at the disposal of the community under any circumstances? > > First, Paul's queries remain unaddressed, then, normal requests are being rejected due to ambiguous privacy and disclosure reasons. We urge AFRINIC's staff for clarifications on these matters. > > Best regards. > > Le ven. 9 juil. 2021 ? 12:53, Anthony Ubah > a ?crit : > +1 @Owen DeLong > Apt. > > I really find it difficult to understand why a call for some measure of transparency is an issue here. > For an organization built on the foundation of "Trust" and "Transparency" an inquiry like this should be responded to with smooth and prompt responses. > Query on privacy clearly goes against the very principles of that very foundation. > > @Mike Silber > It's really not out of place for people to stand at opposite ends of the table view-wise, in oppinon or in ideology, and stay consistently so. It shouldn't baffle anyone, it is human nature. > There isn't a rule of thumb that says that an issue must remain on the top burner until it strikes a chord, as is natural. Anything can trigger a spike. It is within the purview of every single member of the community to call make inquiries or to call the Board/members' inadequacies or " the quality of board minutes and voting records" into question at any time they feel the itch to do so, not necessarily at specific scheduled windows. In this case, Paul's inquiry into this is his spike, and he reserves the right to do so. > > > Best Regards, > > Anthony Ubah > > > > On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 4:32 AM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: > Daniel, > > With all due respect, no, we don?t. The voting record of board members in all matters AFRINIC > is a perfectly valid thing to consider when they come up for re-election and should be a matter > of public record. > > The members have a right to know how the board is acting on their behalf and they have a right > to know which board members are acting in what way during board meetings. > > Everything requested should absolutely be part of the published minutes which the community > and board agreed should be public several years ago. > > There are no privacy rights of the board as a body and the board members have no right or > expectation of privacy in board actions. The only exception should be privileged or executive > sessions, such as those dealing with personnel matters (e.g. the firing of the CEO, salaries, etc.). > > This motion should not fall within that criteria since the member in question was not invited to present > a defense and was not in attendance at the meeting. > > Owen > >> On Jul 8, 2021, at 23:55 , DANIEL NANGHAKA > wrote: >> >> Dear Paul, >> >> I don't think who voted is of importance to the community. We need to protect the privacy of the board members. >> >> The information you are requesting for infringes on privacy rights of the board. >> >> Otherwise, thanks for your concern. >> >> Daniel Nanghaka >> >> On Fri, Jul 9, 2021, 9:49 AM Paul Wollner > wrote: >> To whom it may concern, >> >> I believe the community would be most interested to see the notice, attendance, and voting >> record of the recent board meeting where Cloud Innovation?s membership was summarily >> terminated without notice and without opportunity to respond or appear in their own defense. >> >> I think the community would be most interested to know: >> >> 1. Which board members agreed to the meeting on short notice? >> 2. Which board members voted in favor of the motion and which against? >> 3. Who tabled and who seconded the motion? >> 4. What was the nature and extent of deliberations? >> 5. Why the urgency to act so swiftly after the judge set aside the order? >> 6. When was the meeting noticed? >> 7. When did the meeting take place? >> 8. How/where did the meeting take place? >> >> Regards, >> Paul Wollner >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---- On Thu, 08 Jul 2021 23:14:18 +0200 Eddy Kayihura> wrote ---- >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> AFRINIC hereby informs all those concerned that it has initiated actions for the reclamation of Internet number resources from Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> On 07 July 2021, the Supreme Court of Mauritius delivered a judgement whereby the application for injunction lodged by Cloud Innovation Ltd has been set aside. >> >> Consequently, on 08 July 2021, AFRINIC?s Board of Directors, whilst acting reasonably and in good faith, more so, in light of the judgment of the Supreme Court of Mauritius, found that Cloud Innovation Ltd failed to honour its obligations under the Registration Service Agreement and has thus decided to terminate the membership of Cloud Innovation Ltd as well as reclaim its number resources in the following manner: >> >> The resources previously allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd will be ?frozen? on the AFRINIC WHOIS database with Cloud Innovation Ltd no longer having access to the same. >> >> In order not to disrupt Internet connectivity of the relevant users especially in the current context of the COVID-19 pandemic, all affected users will exceptionally be granted a grace period of 90 days to consider other available options in their best interests. Consequently, the actual reclamation of the relevant number resources will occur following the expiry of the grace period. >> >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >> ceo at afrinic.net >> ?????????????????????????????????.. >> >> >> Chers coll?gues, >> >> AFRINIC informe toutes les personnes concern?es qu'elle a entam? des actions de r?clamation des ressources de num?ros Internet aupr?s de Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> Le 07 juillet 2021, la Cour Supr?me de Maurice a rendu un jugement par lequel la demande d'injonction d?pos?e par Cloud Innovation Ltd a ?t? rejet?e. >> >> En cons?quence, le 08 juillet 2021, le Conseil d'administration d'AFRINIC, tout en agissant raisonnablement et de bonne foi, et plus encore, ? la lumi?re du jugement de la Cour Supr?me de Maurice, a constat? que Cloud Innovation Ltd n'a pas honor? ses obligations en vertu du Contrat de Service d'Enregistrement et a donc d?cid? de r?silier l'adh?sion de Cloud Innovation Ltd ainsi que de r?clamer ses ressources de num?ros Internet de la mani?re suivante : >> >> Les ressources pr?c?demment attribu?es ? Cloud Innovation Ltd seront "gel?es" dans la base de donn?es WHOIS d'AFRINIC et Cloud Innovation Ltd n'y aura plus acc?s. >> Afin de ne pas interrompre la connectivit? Internet des utilisateurs concern?s, notamment dans le contexte actuel de la pand?mie de COVID-19, tous les utilisateurs concern?s b?n?ficieront exceptionnellement d'une p?riode de gr?ce de 90 jours pour envisager d'autres options disponibles dans leur int?r?t. Par cons?quent, la r?clamation effective des ressources num?riques concern?es aura lieu apr?s l'expiration de la p?riode de gr?ce. >> >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >> ceo at afrinic.net >> ??????????????. >> >> >> ?????? ???????? >> >> >> ????? AFRINIC ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ???????? ????? ????? ???????? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> ?? 07 ????? 2021 ? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> ???????? ? ?? 08 ????? 2021 ? ??? ???? ????? AFRINIC ? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????????? ? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd ???? ?? ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???????? ???? ????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ???????: >> >> ???? "?????" ??????? ??????? ?????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?? ????? ?????? AFRINIC WHOIS ? ??? ?? ??? ?????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?????? ?????. >> >> ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? COVID-19 ? ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ????? 90 ????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????. ???????? ? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????. >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >> ceo at afrinic.net >> ???????????. >> >> >> Caros Colegas, >> >> >> AFRINIC informa todos os interessados que iniciou ac??es para a recupera??o de recursos de n?meros de Internet da Cloud Innovation Ltd. >> >> Em 07 de Julho de 2021, o Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias proferiu uma senten?a pela qual o pedido de injun??o apresentado pela Cloud Innovation Ltd foi anulado. >> >> Consequentemente, a 08 de Julho de 2021, o Conselho de Administra??o da AFRINIC, embora agindo razoavelmente e de boa f?, mais ainda, ? luz do ac?rd?o do Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias, considerou que a Cloud Innovation Ltd n?o honrou as suas obriga??es ao abrigo do Acordo de Servi?o de Registo, tendo assim decidido p?r termo ? ades?o da Cloud Innovation Ltd, bem como reclamar os seus recursos num?ricos da seguinte forma: >> >> Os recursos anteriormente atribu?dos ? Cloud Innovation Ltd ser?o "congelados" na base de dados AFRINIC WHOIS, tendo a Cloud Innovation Ltd deixado de ter acesso ? mesma. >> A fim de n?o perturbar a conectividade Internet dos utilizadores relevantes, especialmente no actual contexto da pandemia COVID-19, todos os utilizadores afectados ter?o excepcionalmente um per?odo de gra?a de 90 dias para considerar outras op??es dispon?veis no seu melhor interesse. Consequentemente, a recupera??o efectiva dos recursos num?ricos relevantes ocorrer? ap?s o termo do per?odo de car?ncia. >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, >> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >> ceo at afrinic.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dym5328 at gmail.com Fri Jul 9 12:50:22 2021 From: dym5328 at gmail.com (Mimi dy) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2021 13:50:22 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number resources In-Reply-To: <1A1702D2-D37F-4944-8AE6-E17A5A3B0918@delong.com> References: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> <17a8a05c244.11c7dce2698390.4816319699309652547@africaoncloud.net> <1A1702D2-D37F-4944-8AE6-E17A5A3B0918@delong.com> Message-ID: Hello Owen, Thanks for the clarification. Apologies, it was a misunderstanding from my side. I did not imply to accuse AFRINIC of something they have not done. Best, Le ven. 9 juil. 2021 ? 13:46, Owen DeLong a ?crit : > I appreciate your support, but it?s not entirely fair to say that AFRINIC > has refused this data as they have not yet > responded. It was a community member (Daniel Nanghaka) who made the > statement that I responded to, not > AFRINIC staff. > > I?m all for calling AFRINIC out when they get it wrong or when they break > their own rules and/or make up new > arbitrary rules as they go, but there are plenty of times lately when they > actually get it wrong, we don?t need > to accuse them for things they have not done. > > Owen > > > On Jul 9, 2021, at 05:29 , Mimi dy wrote: > > Hello all, > > I share the same view as Owen and Anthony. I really fail to understand why > a "member-based organization" like AFRINIC is rejecting "community members' > " request for some information which is originally supposed to be disclosed > to all stakeholders. All I see here is a clear abandonment of AFRINIC's > core principles: OPENNESS, TRANSPARENCY, FAIRNESS. Nothing is fair and > transparent about the way AFRINIC tackles the community's concerns/requests. > I feel like we should not even be having this whole discussion. >From my > understanding, an RIR exists because of the community, how is it now > imposing insensitive rules, compromising the foundation of the Global > Internet, and concealing info that is bound to be at the disposal of the > community under any circumstances? > > First, Paul's queries remain unaddressed, then, normal requests are being > rejected due to ambiguous privacy and disclosure reasons. We urge AFRINIC's > staff for clarifications on these matters. > > Best regards. > > Le ven. 9 juil. 2021 ? 12:53, Anthony Ubah a > ?crit : > >> +1 @Owen DeLong >> Apt. >> >> I really find it difficult to understand why a call for some measure of >> transparency is an issue here. >> For an organization built on the foundation of "Trust" and "Transparency" >> an inquiry like this should be responded to with smooth and prompt >> responses. >> Query on privacy clearly goes against the very principles of that very >> foundation. >> >> @Mike Silber >> It's really not out of place for people to stand at opposite ends of the >> table view-wise, in oppinon or in ideology, and stay consistently so. It >> shouldn't baffle anyone, it is human nature. >> There isn't a rule of thumb that says that an issue must remain on the >> top burner until it strikes a chord, as is natural. Anything can trigger a >> spike. It is within the purview of every single member of the community to >> call make inquiries or to call the Board/members' inadequacies or " the >> quality of board minutes and voting records" into question at any time they >> feel the itch to do so, not necessarily at specific scheduled windows. In >> this case, Paul's inquiry into this is his spike, and he reserves the right >> to do so. >> >> >> *Best Regards,* >> >> *Anthony Ubah * >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 4:32 AM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < >> community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: >> >>> Daniel, >>> >>> With all due respect, no, we don?t. The voting record of board members >>> in all matters AFRINIC >>> is a perfectly valid thing to consider when they come up for re-election >>> and should be a matter >>> of public record. >>> >>> The members have a right to know how the board is acting on their behalf >>> and they have a right >>> to know which board members are acting in what way during board meetings. >>> >>> Everything requested should absolutely be part of the published minutes >>> which the community >>> and board agreed should be public several years ago. >>> >>> There are no privacy rights of the board as a body and the board members >>> have no right or >>> expectation of privacy in board actions. The only exception should be >>> privileged or executive >>> sessions, such as those dealing with personnel matters (e.g. the firing >>> of the CEO, salaries, etc.). >>> >>> This motion should not fall within that criteria since the member in >>> question was not invited to present >>> a defense and was not in attendance at the meeting. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>> On Jul 8, 2021, at 23:55 , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: >>> >>> Dear Paul, >>> >>> I don't think who voted is of importance to the community. We need to >>> protect the privacy of the board members. >>> >>> The information you are requesting for infringes on privacy rights of >>> the board. >>> >>> Otherwise, thanks for your concern. >>> >>> Daniel Nanghaka >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2021, 9:49 AM Paul Wollner < >>> paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net> wrote: >>> >>>> To whom it may concern, >>>> >>>> I believe the community would be most interested to see the notice, >>>> attendance, and voting >>>> record of the recent board meeting where Cloud Innovation?s membership >>>> was summarily >>>> terminated without notice and without opportunity to respond or appear >>>> in their own defense. >>>> >>>> I think the community would be most interested to know: >>>> >>>> 1. Which board members agreed to the meeting on short notice? >>>> 2. Which board members voted in favor of the motion and which >>>> against? >>>> 3. Who tabled and who seconded the motion? >>>> 4. What was the nature and extent of deliberations? >>>> 5. Why the urgency to act so swiftly after the judge set aside the >>>> order? >>>> 6. When was the meeting noticed? >>>> 7. When did the meeting take place? >>>> 8. How/where did the meeting take place? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Paul Wollner >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---- On Thu, 08 Jul 2021 23:14:18 +0200 Eddy Kayihura >>>> wrote ---- >>>> >>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>> >>>> AFRINIC hereby informs all those concerned that it has initiated >>>> actions for the reclamation of Internet number resources from Cloud >>>> Innovation Ltd. >>>> >>>> On 07 July 2021, the Supreme Court of Mauritius delivered a judgement >>>> whereby the application for injunction lodged by Cloud Innovation Ltd has >>>> been set aside. >>>> >>>> Consequently, on 08 July 2021, AFRINIC?s Board of Directors, whilst >>>> acting reasonably and in good faith, more so, in light of the judgment of >>>> the Supreme Court of Mauritius, found that Cloud Innovation Ltd failed to >>>> honour its obligations under the Registration Service Agreement and has >>>> thus decided to terminate the membership of Cloud Innovation Ltd as >>>> well as reclaim its number resources in the following manner: >>>> >>>> - The resources previously allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd will >>>> be ?frozen? on the AFRINIC WHOIS database with Cloud Innovation Ltd no >>>> longer having access to the same. >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> In order not to disrupt Internet connectivity of the relevant >>>> users especially in the current context of the COVID-19 pandemic, all >>>> affected users will exceptionally be granted a grace period of 90 days to >>>> consider other available options in their best interests. Consequently, the >>>> actual reclamation of the relevant number resources will occur following >>>> the expiry of the grace period. >>>> >>>> >>>> Eddy Kayihura >>>> Chief Executive Officer, >>>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>>> ceo at afrinic.net >>>> >>>> ?????????????????????????????????.. >>>> >>>> Chers coll?gues, >>>> >>>> AFRINIC informe toutes les personnes concern?es qu'elle a entam? des >>>> actions de r?clamation des ressources de num?ros Internet aupr?s de Cloud >>>> Innovation Ltd. >>>> >>>> Le 07 juillet 2021, la Cour Supr?me de Maurice a rendu un jugement par >>>> lequel la demande d'injonction d?pos?e par Cloud Innovation Ltd a ?t? >>>> rejet?e. >>>> >>>> En cons?quence, le 08 juillet 2021, le Conseil d'administration >>>> d'AFRINIC, tout en agissant raisonnablement et de bonne foi, et plus >>>> encore, ? la lumi?re du jugement de la Cour Supr?me de Maurice, a constat? >>>> que Cloud Innovation Ltd n'a pas honor? ses obligations en vertu du Contrat >>>> de Service d'Enregistrement et a donc d?cid? de r?silier l'adh?sion de >>>> Cloud Innovation Ltd ainsi que de r?clamer ses ressources de num?ros >>>> Internet de la mani?re suivante : >>>> >>>> - Les ressources pr?c?demment attribu?es ? Cloud Innovation Ltd >>>> seront "gel?es" dans la base de donn?es WHOIS d'AFRINIC et Cloud Innovation >>>> Ltd n'y aura plus acc?s. >>>> - >>>> >>>> Afin de ne pas interrompre la connectivit? Internet des >>>> utilisateurs concern?s, notamment dans le contexte actuel de la pand?mie de >>>> COVID-19, tous les utilisateurs concern?s b?n?ficieront exceptionnellement >>>> d'une p?riode de gr?ce de 90 jours pour envisager d'autres options >>>> disponibles dans leur int?r?t. Par cons?quent, la r?clamation effective des >>>> ressources num?riques concern?es aura lieu apr?s l'expiration de la p?riode >>>> de gr?ce. >>>> >>>> >>>> Eddy Kayihura >>>> Chief Executive Officer, >>>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>>> ceo at afrinic.net >>>> >>>> ??????????????. >>>> >>>> ?????? ???????? >>>> >>>> ????? AFRINIC ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? >>>> ???????? ????? ????? ???????? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>>> >>>> ?? 07 ????? 2021 ? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? >>>> ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>>> >>>> ???????? ? ?? 08 ????? 2021 ? ??? ???? ????? AFRINIC ? ????? ????? ???? >>>> ????? ????? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????????? ? ?? Cloud Innovation >>>> Ltd ???? ?? ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???????? ???? >>>> ????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ???????? >>>> ???????: >>>> >>>> ???? "?????" ??????? ??????? ?????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?? ????? >>>> ?????? AFRINIC WHOIS ? ??? ?? ??? ?????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?????? ?????. >>>> >>>> ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? >>>> ?????? ????? COVID-19 ? ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ???? ???????? >>>> ???? ???? ????? 90 ????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? >>>> ??????. ???????? ? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??? >>>> ?????? ???? ??????. >>>> Eddy Kayihura >>>> Chief Executive Officer, >>>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>>> ceo at afrinic.net >>>> >>>> ???????????. >>>> >>>> Caros Colegas, >>>> >>>> AFRINIC informa todos os interessados que iniciou ac??es para a >>>> recupera??o de recursos de n?meros de Internet da Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>>> >>>> Em 07 de Julho de 2021, o Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias proferiu uma >>>> senten?a pela qual o pedido de injun??o apresentado pela Cloud Innovation >>>> Ltd foi anulado. >>>> >>>> Consequentemente, a 08 de Julho de 2021, o Conselho de Administra??o da >>>> AFRINIC, embora agindo razoavelmente e de boa f?, mais ainda, ? luz do >>>> ac?rd?o do Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias, considerou que a Cloud >>>> Innovation Ltd n?o honrou as suas obriga??es ao abrigo do Acordo de Servi?o >>>> de Registo, tendo assim decidido p?r termo ? ades?o da Cloud Innovation >>>> Ltd, bem como reclamar os seus recursos num?ricos da seguinte forma: >>>> >>>> - Os recursos anteriormente atribu?dos ? Cloud Innovation Ltd ser?o >>>> "congelados" na base de dados AFRINIC WHOIS, tendo a Cloud Innovation Ltd >>>> deixado de ter acesso ? mesma. >>>> - >>>> >>>> A fim de n?o perturbar a conectividade Internet dos utilizadores >>>> relevantes, especialmente no actual contexto da pandemia COVID-19, todos os >>>> utilizadores afectados ter?o excepcionalmente um per?odo de gra?a de 90 >>>> dias para considerar outras op??es dispon?veis no seu melhor interesse. >>>> Consequentemente, a recupera??o efectiva dos recursos num?ricos relevantes >>>> ocorrer? ap?s o termo do per?odo de car?ncia. >>>> >>>> Eddy Kayihura >>>> Chief Executive Officer, >>>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>>> ceo at afrinic.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geier at geier.ne.tz Sat Jul 10 08:06:22 2021 From: geier at geier.ne.tz (Frank Habicht) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2021 11:06:22 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] The purpose In-Reply-To: <3F5F64EF-EC01-47D7-90A4-5DB00FB15659@delong.com> References: <3F5F64EF-EC01-47D7-90A4-5DB00FB15659@delong.com> Message-ID: <6d15a75a-801b-8c06-16de-5aafdbdc139b@geier.ne.tz> Hi. Subject changed. used to be "Re: [rpd] More confusion from Noah" Also, this is not about resource policy development, so trying to move to community-discuss, as i think all participants are there. On 10/07/2021 04:48, Owen DeLong via RPD wrote: >> On Jul 4, 2021, at 04:38 , Noah > > wrote: >> 3.4) The Company shall have, both within and outside the Republic of >> Mauritius, full capacity to carry and/or undertake any business or >> activity, including but not limited to the following objects: >> >> 1. to provide the service of allocating and registering Internet >> resources for the purposes of enabling communications via open ^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> system network protocols and to assist in the development and >> growth of the Internet in the African region; >> 2. to promote the representation of AFRINIC membership and the >> Internet community of the African region by ensuring open and >> transparent communication and consensus-driven decision-making >> processes; >> 3. to promote responsible management of Internet resources throughout >> the African region, as well as the responsible development and >> operation of Internet infrastructures;? ? ? ? > > He didn?t skip it, [.......] on members. > > Not one of those sentences enables AFRINIC to exercise any form of > extraordinary control over the types of use of numbers other than > possibly the implied ability to reject utilization plans which clearly > violate applicable law. I'd like to disagree. I tried to highlight "the purposes" in above quote under 1. So AfriNIC has to check that allocated/assigned Internet resources are used (or going to be used) for *the purposes* ... of enabling communications .... [at allocation time, and optionally later] And I think it is legally implied to mean that this means used by the recipient (ie AfriNIC member) for these purposes. [1] And I believe that any AfriNIC member requesting resources does justify those by stating - I need the resources for these and these devices and services of my own (end user) or - I need the resources for some purposes of my own (infrastructure) and for this number and type of Internet connectivity customers and for this number and type of hosting services customers (LIR) And I trust that then AfriNIC assigns/allocates resources for these purposes to the member. [ And when the member (LIR) changes the specific service from dialup customer to DSL customer or from GPON customer to VM-hosting customer, then it would still fit under the above set of justifications. ] When a member however uses the resources for something else, NOT for providing their own connectivity or hosting services, not for sub-allocating to connectivity customers, but instead to other parties not getting these services from the member, then in my opinion, the member is not using the resources according to AfriNIC's mandate any more. And people have been frank in these lists before: then the member is using the resources only for the purpose of profit. And some members justify this by calling the resources (ie IPv4 addresses) *their assets*. I disagree. The resources were given to the member for *the purposes* of providing services by the member. I am sure you can read this in the justifications for the applications for the resources that we are all thinking about now. I know that I'm not entitled to see these, and that's fine. I think we all agree that for most LIR members the resources are given for commercial activities, of a for-profit company. But only as long as they are used for these activities of Internet connectivity or hosting services - in my opinion; and apparently not in the opinion of others. If an IPv4 address block was assigned/allocated to a member for a purpose - without transfer of ownership, then the member is in my opinion not entitled to give/sell/lease/allocate the same to another party. Can anybody advise how/when/where AfriNIC has handed that right to the member? I know some will say we are talking about integers, noone has the right to integers, ..... But: * we're talking about a set of 2^32 integers that have to have the property of being unique all around this Internet we try to keep working. * These integers need to be registered I want to clarify that I see and want to make a big difference between the narrow and wider interpretation of the word "purpose" which I'm so on about. Narrow purpose: I use these IPv4 addresses for a pool of 200 dialup customers in Dar es Salaam on a POP in Mikocheni. Wider purpose: I use these IPv4 addresses for any of my Internet connectivity services or hosting services (managed, VM, dedicated,...) in the network coverage area of this company. If the narrow purpose changes and the wider stays the same, I believe it is common understanding that a justification for the resources remains. If a use of resources changes from within the wider purpose to outside the wider purpose (ie gets no longer used by the member or its connectivity or hosting customers) - then I believe that the conditions for the allocation are no longer fulfilled. Basically, if the member to some extend is no longer in the business of providing Internet (connectivity or hosting) services, but in the business of selling IP resources, then they have confirmed they no longer have any justification for the IP resources they got as a member of AfriNIC. If it's just buying and selling of things (which they call assets, which I dispute), then they could as well speculate with other things like gold, real-estate, or any other commodity, rather than using some of those only 2^32 unique integers. Which are needed by others on this continent to provide internet services. I know this mail is too long. If I'm completely wrong, I welcome corrections. Or any other serious responses. Thanks, Frank PS: I trust anyone trying to commercialise IP resources received from an RIR (received for the purpose of providing services as justified) should know that there is a risk attached to this. PPS: Owen: > Not one of those sentences enables AFRINIC to exercise any form of > extraordinary control maybe it is ordinary control that AfriNIC is exercising. I don't know. [1] If I give you my car, without transferring ownership, to drive around Dar es Salaam as a taxi, and you are to give me a regular "membership fee", then you can not sell my car to someone in Armenia to drive around... Yerevan (and give you some more money so that you keep a lot and pay my "membership fee". From b.sowers154 at gmail.com Sat Jul 10 15:08:31 2021 From: b.sowers154 at gmail.com (Brian Sowers) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2021 11:08:31 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number Message-ID: Discussion Board, Under which conditions does AFRINIC determine that IP spaces are not being utilized? The determination to cancel Cloud Innovations' membership seems arbitrary and unclear at the moment. A direct explicit reason as to how Cloud Innovation Ltd "failed to honour its obligations under the Registration Service Agreement" would immensely aid future organizations from possible removal. It's Interesting because on its website, Cloud Innovation 'specializes in IP address management.' To me, the decision to remove Cloud screams politics and is not based on any real findings. For the board to publish its findings and proceedings is incredibly necessary for the sake of a free Internet. This post doesn't even begin to touch on the odd assumption of duty AFRINIC feels necessary to be both the judge and jury in this determination of IP allocation. My understanding is that each RIR is merely a bookkeeper on IP spaces--not an IP utilization board. -Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goubi.wijdane at gmail.com Sat Jul 10 16:04:05 2021 From: goubi.wijdane at gmail.com (Wijdane Goubi) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2021 18:04:05 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number resources In-Reply-To: References: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> <17a8a05c244.11c7dce2698390.4816319699309652547@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Hello, I agree with what was mentioned above and I believe that asking such inquiries does neither violate not infringes on the board's privacy, and that we deserve to be given such information, particularly if it is about canceling a membership. We also have the full right to inquire about how that decision was made, and that it is not a private matter if it was agreed upon years ago that it should be made public, and also because it impacts a large number of users. Regards, Wijdane Le ven. 9 juil. 2021 ? 14:36, Mimi dy a ?crit : > Hello all, > > I share the same view as Owen and Anthony. I really fail to understand why > a "member-based organization" like AFRINIC is rejecting "community members' > " request for some information which is originally supposed to be disclosed > to all stakeholders. All I see here is a clear abandonment of AFRINIC's > core principles: OPENNESS, TRANSPARENCY, FAIRNESS. Nothing is fair and > transparent about the way AFRINIC tackles the community's concerns/requests. > I feel like we should not even be having this whole discussion. From my > understanding, an RIR exists because of the community, how is it now > imposing insensitive rules, compromising the foundation of the Global > Internet, and concealing info that is bound to be at the disposal of the > community under any circumstances? > > First, Paul's queries remain unaddressed, then, normal requests are being > rejected due to ambiguous privacy and disclosure reasons. We urge AFRINIC's > staff for clarifications on these matters. > > Best regards. > > Le ven. 9 juil. 2021 ? 12:53, Anthony Ubah a > ?crit : > >> +1 @Owen DeLong >> Apt. >> >> I really find it difficult to understand why a call for some measure of >> transparency is an issue here. >> For an organization built on the foundation of "Trust" and "Transparency" >> an inquiry like this should be responded to with smooth and prompt >> responses. >> Query on privacy clearly goes against the very principles of that very >> foundation. >> >> @Mike Silber >> It's really not out of place for people to stand at opposite ends of the >> table view-wise, in oppinon or in ideology, and stay consistently so. It >> shouldn't baffle anyone, it is human nature. >> There isn't a rule of thumb that says that an issue must remain on the >> top burner until it strikes a chord, as is natural. Anything can trigger a >> spike. It is within the purview of every single member of the community to >> call make inquiries or to call the Board/members' inadequacies or " the >> quality of board minutes and voting records" into question at any time they >> feel the itch to do so, not necessarily at specific scheduled windows. In >> this case, Paul's inquiry into this is his spike, and he reserves the right >> to do so. >> >> >> *Best Regards,* >> >> *Anthony Ubah * >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 9, 2021 at 4:32 AM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < >> community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: >> >>> Daniel, >>> >>> With all due respect, no, we don?t. The voting record of board members >>> in all matters AFRINIC >>> is a perfectly valid thing to consider when they come up for re-election >>> and should be a matter >>> of public record. >>> >>> The members have a right to know how the board is acting on their behalf >>> and they have a right >>> to know which board members are acting in what way during board meetings. >>> >>> Everything requested should absolutely be part of the published minutes >>> which the community >>> and board agreed should be public several years ago. >>> >>> There are no privacy rights of the board as a body and the board members >>> have no right or >>> expectation of privacy in board actions. The only exception should be >>> privileged or executive >>> sessions, such as those dealing with personnel matters (e.g. the firing >>> of the CEO, salaries, etc.). >>> >>> This motion should not fall within that criteria since the member in >>> question was not invited to present >>> a defense and was not in attendance at the meeting. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>> On Jul 8, 2021, at 23:55 , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: >>> >>> Dear Paul, >>> >>> I don't think who voted is of importance to the community. We need to >>> protect the privacy of the board members. >>> >>> The information you are requesting for infringes on privacy rights of >>> the board. >>> >>> Otherwise, thanks for your concern. >>> >>> Daniel Nanghaka >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2021, 9:49 AM Paul Wollner < >>> paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net> wrote: >>> >>>> To whom it may concern, >>>> >>>> I believe the community would be most interested to see the notice, >>>> attendance, and voting >>>> record of the recent board meeting where Cloud Innovation?s membership >>>> was summarily >>>> terminated without notice and without opportunity to respond or appear >>>> in their own defense. >>>> >>>> I think the community would be most interested to know: >>>> >>>> 1. Which board members agreed to the meeting on short notice? >>>> 2. Which board members voted in favor of the motion and which >>>> against? >>>> 3. Who tabled and who seconded the motion? >>>> 4. What was the nature and extent of deliberations? >>>> 5. Why the urgency to act so swiftly after the judge set aside the >>>> order? >>>> 6. When was the meeting noticed? >>>> 7. When did the meeting take place? >>>> 8. How/where did the meeting take place? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Paul Wollner >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---- On Thu, 08 Jul 2021 23:14:18 +0200 Eddy Kayihura >>>> wrote ---- >>>> >>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>> >>>> AFRINIC hereby informs all those concerned that it has initiated >>>> actions for the reclamation of Internet number resources from Cloud >>>> Innovation Ltd. >>>> >>>> On 07 July 2021, the Supreme Court of Mauritius delivered a judgement >>>> whereby the application for injunction lodged by Cloud Innovation Ltd has >>>> been set aside. >>>> >>>> Consequently, on 08 July 2021, AFRINIC?s Board of Directors, whilst >>>> acting reasonably and in good faith, more so, in light of the judgment of >>>> the Supreme Court of Mauritius, found that Cloud Innovation Ltd failed to >>>> honour its obligations under the Registration Service Agreement and has >>>> thus decided to terminate the membership of Cloud Innovation Ltd as >>>> well as reclaim its number resources in the following manner: >>>> >>>> - The resources previously allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd will >>>> be ?frozen? on the AFRINIC WHOIS database with Cloud Innovation Ltd no >>>> longer having access to the same. >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> In order not to disrupt Internet connectivity of the relevant >>>> users especially in the current context of the COVID-19 pandemic, all >>>> affected users will exceptionally be granted a grace period of 90 days to >>>> consider other available options in their best interests. Consequently, the >>>> actual reclamation of the relevant number resources will occur following >>>> the expiry of the grace period. >>>> >>>> >>>> Eddy Kayihura >>>> Chief Executive Officer, >>>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>>> ceo at afrinic.net >>>> >>>> ?????????????????????????????????.. >>>> >>>> Chers coll?gues, >>>> >>>> AFRINIC informe toutes les personnes concern?es qu'elle a entam? des >>>> actions de r?clamation des ressources de num?ros Internet aupr?s de Cloud >>>> Innovation Ltd. >>>> >>>> Le 07 juillet 2021, la Cour Supr?me de Maurice a rendu un jugement par >>>> lequel la demande d'injonction d?pos?e par Cloud Innovation Ltd a ?t? >>>> rejet?e. >>>> >>>> En cons?quence, le 08 juillet 2021, le Conseil d'administration >>>> d'AFRINIC, tout en agissant raisonnablement et de bonne foi, et plus >>>> encore, ? la lumi?re du jugement de la Cour Supr?me de Maurice, a constat? >>>> que Cloud Innovation Ltd n'a pas honor? ses obligations en vertu du Contrat >>>> de Service d'Enregistrement et a donc d?cid? de r?silier l'adh?sion de >>>> Cloud Innovation Ltd ainsi que de r?clamer ses ressources de num?ros >>>> Internet de la mani?re suivante : >>>> >>>> - Les ressources pr?c?demment attribu?es ? Cloud Innovation Ltd >>>> seront "gel?es" dans la base de donn?es WHOIS d'AFRINIC et Cloud Innovation >>>> Ltd n'y aura plus acc?s. >>>> - >>>> >>>> Afin de ne pas interrompre la connectivit? Internet des >>>> utilisateurs concern?s, notamment dans le contexte actuel de la pand?mie de >>>> COVID-19, tous les utilisateurs concern?s b?n?ficieront exceptionnellement >>>> d'une p?riode de gr?ce de 90 jours pour envisager d'autres options >>>> disponibles dans leur int?r?t. Par cons?quent, la r?clamation effective des >>>> ressources num?riques concern?es aura lieu apr?s l'expiration de la p?riode >>>> de gr?ce. >>>> >>>> >>>> Eddy Kayihura >>>> Chief Executive Officer, >>>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>>> ceo at afrinic.net >>>> >>>> ??????????????. >>>> >>>> ?????? ???????? >>>> >>>> ????? AFRINIC ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? >>>> ???????? ????? ????? ???????? ?? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>>> >>>> ?? 07 ????? 2021 ? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? >>>> ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>>> >>>> ???????? ? ?? 08 ????? 2021 ? ??? ???? ????? AFRINIC ? ????? ????? ???? >>>> ????? ????? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ????????? ? ?? Cloud Innovation >>>> Ltd ???? ?? ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???????? ???? >>>> ????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ???????? >>>> ???????: >>>> >>>> ???? "?????" ??????? ??????? ?????? ????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?? ????? >>>> ?????? AFRINIC WHOIS ? ??? ?? ??? ?????? Cloud Innovation Ltd ?????? ?????. >>>> >>>> ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? >>>> ?????? ????? COVID-19 ? ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ???? ???????? >>>> ???? ???? ????? 90 ????? ????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? >>>> ??????. ???????? ? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??? >>>> ?????? ???? ??????. >>>> Eddy Kayihura >>>> Chief Executive Officer, >>>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>>> ceo at afrinic.net >>>> >>>> ???????????. >>>> >>>> Caros Colegas, >>>> >>>> AFRINIC informa todos os interessados que iniciou ac??es para a >>>> recupera??o de recursos de n?meros de Internet da Cloud Innovation Ltd. >>>> >>>> Em 07 de Julho de 2021, o Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias proferiu uma >>>> senten?a pela qual o pedido de injun??o apresentado pela Cloud Innovation >>>> Ltd foi anulado. >>>> >>>> Consequentemente, a 08 de Julho de 2021, o Conselho de Administra??o da >>>> AFRINIC, embora agindo razoavelmente e de boa f?, mais ainda, ? luz do >>>> ac?rd?o do Supremo Tribunal das Maur?cias, considerou que a Cloud >>>> Innovation Ltd n?o honrou as suas obriga??es ao abrigo do Acordo de Servi?o >>>> de Registo, tendo assim decidido p?r termo ? ades?o da Cloud Innovation >>>> Ltd, bem como reclamar os seus recursos num?ricos da seguinte forma: >>>> >>>> - Os recursos anteriormente atribu?dos ? Cloud Innovation Ltd ser?o >>>> "congelados" na base de dados AFRINIC WHOIS, tendo a Cloud Innovation Ltd >>>> deixado de ter acesso ? mesma. >>>> - >>>> >>>> A fim de n?o perturbar a conectividade Internet dos utilizadores >>>> relevantes, especialmente no actual contexto da pandemia COVID-19, todos os >>>> utilizadores afectados ter?o excepcionalmente um per?odo de gra?a de 90 >>>> dias para considerar outras op??es dispon?veis no seu melhor interesse. >>>> Consequentemente, a recupera??o efectiva dos recursos num?ricos relevantes >>>> ocorrer? ap?s o termo do per?odo de car?ncia. >>>> >>>> Eddy Kayihura >>>> Chief Executive Officer, >>>> African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) >>>> ceo at afrinic.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Sat Jul 10 19:48:42 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2021 12:48:42 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <53727.1625946522@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Brian Sowers wrote: >My understanding is that each >RIR is merely a bookkeeper on IP spaces--not an IP utilization board. This is a serious historical misunderstanding. You should familiarize yoursef with the full history of the RIRs, and indeed, of IP allocation policies generally, dating back to a time even before the emergence of the RIR system. Regards, rfg From dndannang at gmail.com Sat Jul 10 23:18:42 2021 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 02:18:42 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number In-Reply-To: <53727.1625946522@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <53727.1625946522@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: The details are in the RIR history. AFRINIC was created to manage African resources. If resources are meant for the development of the internet in the Africa then why would you want to rob the region of its organic growth? So for those who are not sure, I suggest they should go back and do some research and understand the creation of RIR. Regards Daniel KN On Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 10:49 PM Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > In message 8aaJUjWxJTjaDpkvcB7e3sqM9gb+w at mail.gmail.com> > Brian Sowers wrote: > > >My understanding is that each > >RIR is merely a bookkeeper on IP spaces--not an IP utilization board. > > This is a serious historical misunderstanding. > > You should familiarize yoursef with the full history of the RIRs, and > indeed, of IP allocation policies generally, dating back to a time even > before the emergence of the RIR system. > > > Regards, > rfg > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erickj.lagon at gmail.com Sun Jul 11 08:41:13 2021 From: erickj.lagon at gmail.com (Erick Joshua Lagon) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 16:41:13 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number In-Reply-To: References: <53727.1625946522@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: While RIRs are meant to manage the resources in a specific region, we must remember that the internet is a universal resource. The community must not hold any ?ownership? to them. The community must see to it that number resources are properly allocated and must be shared in case of shortages be it in Africa or outside the region because of the benefits it may bring. Regards, Erick On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 7:19 AM DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > The details are in the RIR history. > AFRINIC was created to manage African resources. If resources are meant > for the development of the internet in the Africa then why would you want > to rob the region of its organic growth? > > So for those who are not sure, I suggest they should go back and do some > research and understand the creation of RIR. > > Regards > Daniel KN > > > On Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 10:49 PM Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: > >> In message > 8aaJUjWxJTjaDpkvcB7e3sqM9gb+w at mail.gmail.com> >> Brian Sowers wrote: >> >> >My understanding is that each >> >RIR is merely a bookkeeper on IP spaces--not an IP utilization board. >> >> This is a serious historical misunderstanding. >> >> You should familiarize yoursef with the full history of the RIRs, and >> indeed, of IP allocation policies generally, dating back to a time even >> before the emergence of the RIR system. >> >> >> Regards, >> rfg >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From madomey at hotmail.com Sun Jul 11 17:35:27 2021 From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 17:35:27 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] ARIN without Owen Delong ? Message-ID: Hello Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP resigned from ARIN AC? https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 Marcus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chresgoro at gmail.com Sun Jul 11 17:51:13 2021 From: chresgoro at gmail.com (Christian Orozco) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 01:51:13 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number In-Reply-To: References: <53727.1625946522@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: Hi Daniel, I'd like to share once again what I replied to someone with the same sentiment as yours: Other RIRs understand very well that the benefit of the IP address market: to help utilize unused addresses to fulfill the necessity. They recognize the dire effects of such dormancy especially when left unmitigated. In the first place, IANA itself sees that there is a need for *global coordination*. Thus, its authority to allocation which is then extended to RIRs, should not be merely seen as a form of division, rather a bigger avenue for coordination. (end) Therefore, establishing a global community is understood to be a part of the RIR history you are talking about in the first place. The RIRs are there to avoid further centralization, which is a direction harmful to be taken. Moving on, while I do recognize that organic growth is an important concept, it is quite a hasty assumption to treat IP services like Cloud Innovation as enemies of such growth most especially in the context of the internet that is working on a vast scale and is fast-growing. Respectfully, Christian On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 7:19 AM DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > The details are in the RIR history. > AFRINIC was created to manage African resources. If resources are meant > for the development of the internet in the Africa then why would you want > to rob the region of its organic growth? > > So for those who are not sure, I suggest they should go back and do some > research and understand the creation of RIR. > > Regards > Daniel KN > > > On Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 10:49 PM Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: > >> In message > 8aaJUjWxJTjaDpkvcB7e3sqM9gb+w at mail.gmail.com> >> Brian Sowers wrote: >> >> >My understanding is that each >> >RIR is merely a bookkeeper on IP spaces--not an IP utilization board. >> >> This is a serious historical misunderstanding. >> >> You should familiarize yoursef with the full history of the RIRs, and >> indeed, of IP allocation policies generally, dating back to a time even >> before the emergence of the RIR system. >> >> >> Regards, >> rfg >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dndannang at gmail.com Sun Jul 11 18:02:43 2021 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 21:02:43 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote: > Hello > > Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP > resigned from ARIN AC? > > https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 > > > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pascosoft at gmail.com Sun Jul 11 18:24:15 2021 From: pascosoft at gmail.com (Paschal Ochang) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 19:24:15 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great question Daniel. On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? > > On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: > >> Hello >> >> Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP >> resigned from ARIN AC? >> >> https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 >> >> >> >> Marcus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > -- Kind regards, Paschal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Mon Jul 12 00:40:21 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 17:40:21 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] The purpose In-Reply-To: <6d15a75a-801b-8c06-16de-5aafdbdc139b@geier.ne.tz> References: <3F5F64EF-EC01-47D7-90A4-5DB00FB15659@delong.com> <6d15a75a-801b-8c06-16de-5aafdbdc139b@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: > On Jul 10, 2021, at 01:06 , Frank Habicht wrote: > > Hi. > > Subject changed. used to be "Re: [rpd] More confusion from Noah" > Also, this is not about resource policy development, so trying to move > to community-discuss, as i think all participants are there. > > On 10/07/2021 04:48, Owen DeLong via RPD wrote: >>> On Jul 4, 2021, at 04:38 , Noah >> > wrote: >>> 3.4) The Company shall have, both within and outside the Republic of >>> Mauritius, full capacity to carry and/or undertake any business or >>> activity, including but not limited to the following objects: >>> >>> 1. to provide the service of allocating and registering Internet >>> resources for the purposes of enabling communications via open > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>> system network protocols and to assist in the development and >>> growth of the Internet in the African region; >>> 2. to promote the representation of AFRINIC membership and the >>> Internet community of the African region by ensuring open and >>> transparent communication and consensus-driven decision-making >>> processes; >>> 3. to promote responsible management of Internet resources throughout >>> the African region, as well as the responsible development and >>> operation of Internet infrastructures; >> >> He didn?t skip it, [.......] on members. >> >> Not one of those sentences enables AFRINIC to exercise any form of >> extraordinary control over the types of use of numbers other than >> possibly the implied ability to reject utilization plans which clearly >> violate applicable law. > > I'd like to disagree. > I tried to highlight "the purposes" in above quote under 1. > > > So AfriNIC has to check that allocated/assigned Internet resources are > used (or going to be used) for *the purposes* ... of enabling > communications .... > [at allocation time, and optionally later] Sure, but the use of the word and in the sentence can be construed multiple ways. Where such an ambiguity exists, it is incumbent on the parties to either clarify it in a contract, or interpret it in the least damaging way. In this case, the numbers are being used for the purpose of enabling communications via open systems network protocols. IMHO, they are also being used to assist in the development and growth of the internet in the African region, but I realize there is controversy in the community about this. > And I think it is legally implied to mean that this means used by the > recipient (ie AfriNIC member) for these purposes. [1] Well, with the and in that sentence, it really only implies that the use by the member should fulfill one of those purposes to meet that criteria if you really want to stretch it that far. > And I believe that any AfriNIC member requesting resources does justify > those by stating > - I need the resources for these and these devices and services of my > own (end user) > or > - I need the resources for some purposes of my own (infrastructure) and > for this number and type of Internet connectivity customers and for > this number and type of hosting services customers (LIR) The specification of the number and size of customers covers the size of allocation resources by AFRINIC. Beyond that, it serves no purpose. In terms of whether resources are justified at all or not, this is strictly a matter of expressing ?I need these resources for purposes of numbering internet connected hosts in my network and my customers networks.? There?s no basis in policy or the governing documents for rejecting an application or requiring more specific details about the utilization. > And I trust that then AfriNIC assigns/allocates resources for these > purposes to the member. One would certainly hope. > [ > And when the member (LIR) changes the specific service from dialup > customer to DSL customer or from GPON customer to VM-hosting customer, > then it would still fit under the above set of justifications. > ] > > When a member however uses the resources for something else, NOT for > providing their own connectivity or hosting services, not for > sub-allocating to connectivity customers, but instead to other parties > not getting these services from the member, then in my opinion, the > member is not using the resources according to AfriNIC's mandate any more. Please show me where in AFRINIC?s governing documents it says that the addresses and connectivity services must come from the same provider. > And people have been frank in these lists before: then the member is > using the resources only for the purpose of profit. Virtually all LIRs are using the resources for the purpose of profit. Profit is not inherently evil, despite the claims of some on this list. Profit is, indeed, the basis of most business. > And some members justify this by calling the resources (ie IPv4 > addresses) *their assets*. > I disagree. IPv4 addresses are not assets. Here, I agree with you. However, the ownership of a registration of a block of IP addresses _IS_ an asset, whether you like it or not. It is the unique registration of the addresses for this purpose that is valuable, not the mere integers themselves. Claiming ownership of 5 is absurd. Claiming ownership of a registration of 2001:db8::/32 for purposes of exclusive use in numbering internet connected hosts is valuable (the particulars of the example prefix used here not withstanding). > The resources were given to the member for *the purposes* of providing > services by the member. I am sure you can read this in the > justifications for the applications for the resources that we are all > thinking about now. > I know that I'm not entitled to see these, and that's fine. And the member is providing services? Whether you approve of those services or not, they are services utilizing open systems network protocols. > I think we all agree that for most LIR members the resources are given > for commercial activities, of a for-profit company. > But only as long as they are used for these activities of Internet > connectivity or hosting services - in my opinion; and apparently not in > the opinion of others. Even in this case, they are being used for activities of internet connectivity or hosting services. The difference is that in this case, the addressing service and the connectivity service are being provided by different companies. So I don?t disagree with you, I just think that the distinction between connectivity provided by one company and addresses provided by another vs. connectivity and addresses provided by the same company is literally a distinction without a difference. > If an IPv4 address block was assigned/allocated to a member for a > purpose - without transfer of ownership, then the member is in my > opinion not entitled to give/sell/lease/allocate the same to another > party. Can anybody advise how/when/where AfriNIC has handed that right > to the member? If we follow this statement literally, LIRs cannot exist. By definition, LIRs lease and/or assign addresses to another party. That is the exclusive role of an LIR. That is also what Cloud Innovation is doing as an LIR. > I know some will say we are talking about integers, noone has the right > to integers, ..... > But: > * we're talking about a set of 2^32 integers that have to have the > property of being unique all around this Internet we try to keep working. > * These integers need to be registered Yes, it is the registration of the integers for a particular purpose that has value, not the integers themselves. Therefore, the registration is the asset and property, not the integers that the registration refers to. > I want to clarify that I see and want to make a big difference between > the narrow and wider interpretation of the word "purpose" which I'm so > on about. Good idea. > Narrow purpose: I use these IPv4 addresses for a pool of 200 dialup > customers in Dar es Salaam on a POP in Mikocheni. > Wider purpose: I use these IPv4 addresses for any of my Internet > connectivity services or hosting services (managed, VM, dedicated,...) > in the network coverage area of this company. Even wider purpose: ?IPv4 addresses will be used to number hosts within applicant?s infrastructure and also internet connected hosts controlled by applicant?s customers.? > If the narrow purpose changes and the wider stays the same, I believe it > is common understanding that a justification for the resources remains. OK, so given that, if one submits the above even wider purpose, the utilization is justified and remains valid. > If a use of resources changes from within the wider purpose to outside > the wider purpose (ie gets no longer used by the member or its > connectivity or hosting customers) - then I believe that the conditions > for the allocation are no longer fulfilled. Sure? One must choose one?s wider purpose carefully. > Basically, if the member to some extend is no longer in the business of > providing Internet (connectivity or hosting) services, but in the > business of selling IP resources, then they have confirmed they no > longer have any justification for the IP resources they got as a member > of AfriNIC. Here?s where you go off the rails (at least in characterizing this particular case). The member in question (Cloud Innovation) is still in the business of providing hosting services, but also leases some of its address space to parties who obtain their connectivity services from third parties. > If it's just buying and selling of things (which they call assets, which > I dispute), then they could as well speculate with other things like > gold, real-estate, or any other commodity, rather than using some of > those only 2^32 unique integers. Which are needed by others on this > continent to provide internet services. But that?s not the case. In this case, they are providing a service. The service of IP Address Management. They are utilizing their assets (The registration of several blocks of IP addresses from various RIRs) to provide that service, just as any LIR in the world does. The only key difference here is that they have some customers who are receiving that service independent of connectivity services. > I know this mail is too long. > If I'm completely wrong, I welcome corrections. Not completely, but significantly, IMHO. > Or any other serious responses. I leave it to your judgment whether you take my response seriously or not. > Thanks, > Frank > > PS: > I trust anyone trying to commercialise IP resources received from an RIR > (received for the purpose of providing services as justified) should > know that there is a risk attached to this. > > PPS: > Owen: >> Not one of those sentences enables AFRINIC to exercise any form of >> extraordinary control > maybe it is ordinary control that AfriNIC is exercising. I don't know. When AFRINIC attempts to dictate how a member may use their resources in a manner which is not contained in the actual governing documents, it becomes extraordinary control. > [1] > If I give you my car, without transferring ownership, to drive around > Dar es Salaam as a taxi, and you are to give me a regular "membership > fee", then you can not sell my car to someone in Armenia to drive > around... Yerevan (and give you some more money so that you keep a lot > and pay my "membership fee". I suppose that depends on a number of things. First, did you give me your car, or did you lease the car to me? Of course, that already starts one step removed from AFRINIC because AFRINIC neither gives nor leases cars, or anything else. AFRINIC, instead, registers IP number resources, much the same as a DMV[2] (or whatever the equivalent government authority in your area is called) registers cars. To the best of my knowledge, no DMV (or equivalent) anywhere prevents or prohibits you from taking a car that is registered to you and leasing it to a third party in another country for operations in that country. (Though the target country may prohibit the operation of the foreign registered vehicle within their jurisdiction, but that?s not really material to this particular tortured analogy). This is really the point. AFRINIC?s mandate with regard to number resources is limited to registration according to the policies set by the community in the CPM within various legal limitations set forth in the RSA (contract) and the bylaws (AFRINIC corporate constitution). So if there?s no mandate for AFRINIC to make judgments about the validity of a particular form of use or to require that a particular type of service be included with the use of addresses from an LIR, then really, AFRINIC has no valid basis to reject or revoke addresses used within policy no matter how much AFRINIC and/or the community wish to argue against that particular form of utilization. If the community truly wants to invalidate that form of utilization, it?s a simple matter of developing and gaining consensus on a policy proposal to do just that. Owen [2] DMV == Department of Motor Vehicles, the registration authority for vehicles among other things in California. From taiwo.oyewande88 at gmail.com Mon Jul 12 12:10:04 2021 From: taiwo.oyewande88 at gmail.com (Taiwo Oye) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 13:10:04 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] ARIN without Owen Delong ? Message-ID: ?Benjilo. How is this of concern to you or to any of the members of the afrinic community. Kindly direct your question to the appropriate quarters - owen at delong.com - > On Jul 11, 2021, at 19:27, Paschal Ochang wrote: > ?Great question Daniel. > > On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: >> Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? >> >> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote: >>> Hello >>> >>> Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP resigned from ARIN AC? >>> >>> https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 >>> >>> >>> >>> Marcus >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > -- > Kind regards, > Paschal. > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com Mon Jul 12 18:29:01 2021 From: ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com (Anthony Ubah) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:29:01 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Apt. A fitting response. *Best Regards,* *Anthony* On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 2:05 PM DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? > > On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: > >> Hello >> >> Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP >> resigned from ARIN AC? >> >> https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 >> >> >> >> Marcus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From comms at afrinic.net Tue Jul 13 11:57:03 2021 From: comms at afrinic.net (AFRINIC Communication) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 15:57:03 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Statement from the Number Resource Organization on allegations against AFRINIC Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Please find below a statement from the Number Resource Organization on allegations against AFRINIC. https://www.nro.net/statement-of-the-number-resource-organization-on-allegations-against-afrinic/ AFRINIC plans to organise a series of webinars that aim to bring together AFRINIC members and the community to discuss key aspects of the distribution of Internet Number Resources in Africa and its management structures with the first webinar set for 22 July 2021. The AFRINIC Webinar Series will also cover among other topics, the RIR ecosystem, Policy Development Process, the ?needs-based? approach, the Internet Number Resource distribution policies and the Registration Services Agreement. We invite you to participate in the AFRINIC Webinar Series to discuss and express your views on the subject. The dates and registration links for the Webinar Series will be provided in subsequent announcements on the AFRINIC mailing lists and Website. Thank You. AFRINIC Communication From amelnaud at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 12:56:06 2021 From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 12:56:06 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: @Taiwo We all would like to know why Owen, so active in our PDP, has to resign from his position at ARIN AC which serves in an advisory capacity to the Board of Trustees on Internet number resource policy and related matters. -- Arnaud Le lun. 12 juil. 2021 ? 12:37, Taiwo Oye a ?crit : > ?Benjilo. > How is this of concern to you or to any of the members of the afrinic > community. Kindly direct your question to the appropriate quarters - > owen at delong.com - > > > On Jul 11, 2021, at 19:27, Paschal Ochang wrote: > > ?Great question Daniel. > > On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > >> Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? >> >> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey >> wrote: >> >>> Hello >>> >>> Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC >>> PDP resigned from ARIN AC? >>> >>> https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 >>> >>> >>> >>> Marcus >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> > > -- > Kind regards, > > Paschal. > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vincent at ngundi.me.ke Tue Jul 13 13:25:24 2021 From: vincent at ngundi.me.ke (PDWG Chair) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 16:25:24 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Marcus, We would like to bring to your attention that according to Section 3 of the CPM, ?The Policy Development Working Group (PDWG) discusses the proposals. Anyone may participate via the Internet or in person. PDWG work is carried out through the Resource Policy Discussion mailing list (rpd at afrinic.net ) and the bi-annual AFRINIC Public Policy Meetings (PPM)?. We have taken note of the contents of your post and find that they are not related to a policy proposal. You may use another AFRINIC mailing list that aligns with the discussion you want to initiate if you so wish. We also ?request ?the PDWG to refrain from responding to this post. Regards, Vincent Ngundi & Darwin Da Costa AFRINIC PDWG Co-Chairs On 11/07/2021 20:35, Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote: > Hello > > Out of curiosity, does anyone know ?why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC > PDP resigned from ARIN AC? > > https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 > > > > Marcus > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 13 16:55:25 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 09:55:25 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number resources In-Reply-To: <17D47571-0527-4D86-9056-68BEEF564ABF@gmail.com> References: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> <17a8a05c244.11c7dce2698390.4816319699309652547@africaoncloud.net> <17D47571-0527-4D86-9056-68BEEF564ABF@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 9, 2021, at 04:27 , Mike Silber wrote: > > Hi Owen > > I was not specifically responding to your comments and in fact I agreed with several of them. > > Apologies if I did not make it clear. OK? It wasn?t clear and I missed that, I guess. In any case, no offense taken. We?ve been friends for several years and even though we may disagree from time to time, I know you to be a fellow person of honor who also consistently tries to do right and act in the interests and service of the community. > The board minutes have improved a lot ?. but can use a lot more work. The practice of publishing resolutions prior to the minutes being published is also a very good practice - though it may not be satisfying to you and others, as it lacks some of the detail you seem to seek. You get no argument from me on this point. > Thank you for confirming that this issue is directly relevant to you (I assume as a consultant to Cloud Innovation?). Correct. > Mr Wollner and others have not been as forthright in disclosing their interests ?. leading to speculation. To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Wollner is CEO of Africa On Cloud, a service provider in South Africa and a resource member of AFRINIC. > My concern about possible hypocrisy related to this list of questions and the astroturfing that has succeeded it: > >>>>> Which board members agreed to the meeting on short notice? > > How does Mr Wollner know it was at short notice? It may have been a regular meeting for all he knows. I suspect this is speculation due to the timing (Court ruled just the day before the board met and took this action). I suppose there is the possibility that the timing was coincidental, but surely it is not unreasonable absent other information to assume that the board acting on July 8 in regards to a court order issued on July 7 represents a very rapid convening of said board. >>>>> 2. Which board members voted in favor of the motion and which against? > > This is never disclosed in minutes. Why is it now relevant but was not a month or a year ago? It should be disclosed on all motions, IMHO. It was relevant a month and a year ago and I believe i have raised objection to the lack of this information at several open microphone sessions. >>>>> 3. Who tabled and who seconded the motion? > > This will appear in the minutes in due course. Why the need for it to be provided on an expedited basis? > >>>>> 4. What was the nature and extent of deliberations? > > This will appear in the minutes in due course. Why the need for it to be provided on an expedited basis? I can?t speak to Paul?s sense of urgency, but given the unprecedented nature of the situation and the severity of the consequences, i can say that I would certainly prefer to know sooner rather than later. >>>>> 5. Why the urgency to act so swiftly after the judge set aside the order? > > This may appear in the minutes in due course. The minutes are not uniform in their level of detail. Why the need for it to be provided on an expedited basis? Sure. I only hope that AFRINIC will respond with the same sense of urgency and swiftness of action to the latest order from the courts. >>>>> 6. When was the meeting noticed? > > This has not appeared in any minutes to date. Why is it now relevant but was not a month or a year ago? I suspect this isn?t so much about minutes as about understanding how the meeting was convened and whether proper process was followed in this case of an apparently urgent meeting. >>>>> 7. When did the meeting take place? > > This will appear in the minutes in due course. Why the need for it to be provided on an expedited basis? Among other things, depending on the timeline, it may be evidence that AFRINIC has acted in bad faith and in anticipation of the court order which had not yet been issued. As such, the community has a clear interest in verifying this information. >>>>> 8. How/where did the meeting take place? > > This will appear in the minutes in due course. Why the need for it to be provided on an expedited basis? I would suspect the same reasons as 7, above. Certainly any board taking such extraordinary and unprecedented actions so swiftly with such large consequences to a member of the organization should expect additional scrutiny of their process from the community/membership, no? Owen > > Mike > >> On 9 Jul 2021, at 13:08, Owen DeLong > wrote: >> >> It?s not unusual for people to pay more attention when something affects them. >> >> If you will review the record, you will easily find that I was one of the people calling for greater transparency >> and greater board accountability starting many years ago prior to the formation of the GC. You will also find >> that I was one of the most vocal proponents of the idea of publishing the board minutes and that I had >> little sympathy for the board?s claim that there was a need for a lengthy review and redaction process >> prior to publication of the old minutes. >> >> I admit I haven?t reviewed the board minutes until now as I?ve not encountered a prior situation where >> they are directly relevant to what I was doing, so I was unaware of the generally poor quality that you >> report here. >> >> Nonetheless, this is (at least for my part) a genuine desire to know what happened and how. >> >> Claiming that it is an attempt to intimidate (how?) strikes me as absurd. >> >> Claiming that it is an attempt to obstruct strikes me as quite a stretch and a bit of fear mongering. >> >> If the board is intimidated by a mere question about how they voted and a request for some notes >> about their deliberations, then I seriously question their ability to do the job of board members. >> My expectation is that this is not the case and that there should be no issue getting the answers >> to the questions asked, which you have already agreed should generally be published for all >> board meetings. >> >> Owen >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 13 17:03:19 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 10:03:19 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Apologies to the list for this off-topic posting, but given the unwarranted attention already paid to the matter and the escalating level of speculation, I beg your indulgence. This will (hopefully) be the only post I make on the matter here. For clarity: 1. I chose to resign my position on the ARIN AC. I was not forced to resign. I did not have to resign. So your speculation is neither accurate, nor appropriate and the implications are offensive. 2. I chose to resign in order to have greater freedom and flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of interest with my role as an Advisory Council member. While I have been outspoken by most standards, the reality is that my position on the AC did serve as a significant restraint to my speech in many cases. The time has come where I felt the need to remove that restraint in order to best serve the community. Reading anything other than the above into it would be a mistake and further speculation is very unlikely to produce any accurate conclusions. If anyone has questions about my resignation, they are free to ask me directly, but this really is not an appropriate topic for this list. Owen > On Jul 13, 2021, at 05:56 , Arnaud AMELINA wrote: > > @Taiwo > > We all would like to know why Owen, so active in our PDP, has to resign from his position at ARIN AC which serves in an advisory capacity to the Board of Trustees on Internet number resource policy and related matters. > > -- > Arnaud > > Le lun. 12 juil. 2021 ? 12:37, Taiwo Oye > a ?crit : > ?Benjilo. > How is this of concern to you or to any of the members of the afrinic community. Kindly direct your question to the appropriate quarters - owen at delong.com - > > >> On Jul 11, 2021, at 19:27, Paschal Ochang > wrote: >> >> ?Great question Daniel. >> >> On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA > wrote: >> Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? >> >> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: >> Hello >> >> Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP resigned from ARIN AC? >> >> https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 >> >> >> >> Marcus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> -- >> Kind regards, >> Paschal. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > RPD mailing list > RPD at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tech at cloudinnovation.org Wed Jul 14 01:38:45 2021 From: tech at cloudinnovation.org (tech) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 09:38:45 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC Message-ID: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> This letter is a follow-up to the unfortunate incident arising from the actions taken by AFRINIC (African Network Information Centre), including terminating our (Cloud Innovation Ltd) membership and reclaiming our number resources which we consider to have been totally unnecessary, unreasonable, and unjust. The action has not caused only serious damage to Cloud Innovation and hundreds of its clients' businesses, but also to hundreds of millions of end-users who were potentially endangered at the same time. ? We are pleased to announce that??urgent interim relief has been granted to Cloud Innovation by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of??the Supreme Court of Mauritius( herewith attached) to prevent AFRINIC from reclaiming our number resources in such illegal manner.??As a result of which,??Cloud Innovation will now be in a position to resume business as normal until the issues are resolved before the competent courts..? ? For the sake of clarity and transparency, we would share with you as set out below the background which led to the current state of affairs: ? -????AFRINIC??issued a letter to Cloud Innovation on June 23, 2020, accusing Cloud Innovation of policy violations. AFRINIC threatened to take actions and demanded an immediate response within 14 days. Despite the short notice, Cloud Innovation investigated AFRINIC's accusations carefully. Cloud Innovation did not find any policy violations of its own but only AFRINIC's own misinterpretation of its policy document and errors in understanding the nature of BGP. Cloud Innovation duly issued a response on 13 July 2020, within the deadline set by AFRINIC to explain the misunderstanding of AFRINIC?s own documents and erroneous assertions regarding routing. ? -?????After eight months, AFRINIC issued a letter on 10 March 2021 ( being the first day Mauritius went into a second national lockdown due to COVID-19)??to Cloud Innovation, raising similar alleged breaches as those alleged in June 2020 but with??the following warning note::? ? To address the aforementioned issues, Cloud Innovation Ltd is hereby most formally required to promptly and accurately submit its ?change request? in compliance with Clauses 4(a) and 2(d) of the RSA, as well as ensure full compliance with AFRINIC. The ?change request? must include: I. Detailed utilisation information for all the aforementioned IPv4 prefixes including the services for which the resources are being used and country of service origin. II. Planned utilisation of your remaining IPv4 space for the next 8 months III.Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close of business. AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close of business.AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance?thereof. ? ? ? ? ? ?The false accusations made by AFRINIC and our response/views are attached in a separate document (named:Chronology) for the benefit of all the community..? ? - ? ? ? As the 3rd largest member of AFRINIC, Cloud Innovation serves hundreds of millions of end-users through hundreds of telecoms and ISPs around the world. The services, such as hosting websites, counts ? ? ? ?for over 1.5 million websites hosted by Cloud Innovation's IP alone. Thus, there is no way, especially with the size of Cloud Innovation, to fully and wholly satisfy AFRINIC's request within the timeframe it provided. With the real threat of membership termination and hundreds of millions of users' connectivity on the line, Cloud Innovation was left with no option but to seek the mercy of the court in Mauritius during a period of lockdown with limited resources. An interim order of injunction was therefore issued by the Mauritius court on April 7,2021 to protect the interests of end-users and to forbid AFRINIC from acting irrationally. ? ? -???????By virtue of a judgment issued on the evening of??7 July 2021, the said injunction was lifted on the basis of a mere legal technicality basis, which was partially caused by the inability to provide a power of attorney to our lawyers in Mauritius during the total lockdown of Mauritius, a direct result of AFRINIC releasing such a letter to us on the??first day??of the Mauritius lockdown.? ? -???????In order to protect our interests and the hundreds of millions of users of number resources registered to us, we took immediate action by filing an appeal against the judgment on the very next day.. ? -???????In order to safeguard its interests, Cloud Innovation had to again seek urgent relief before the Supreme Court of Mauritius.???By virtue of an interim order of injunction issued on 13 July 2021, AFRINIC has been restrained and prohibited from terminating our membership and reclaiming our number resources.???The said proceedings are now pending before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. ? -???????We welcome the urgent intervention of the Supreme Court of Mauritius for interim relief in order to protect our rights as a member. . We would like to inform those concerned that the operations of our number resources will revert to normal at the earliest as AFRINIC is under an obligation to comply with the Judge?s Order as attached.? ? -???????We wish to emphasise that as an AFRINIC member in good standing, we consistently abide by their policy and strive to contribute to the community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take any action against AFRINIC but are obligated to take the appropriate measures to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds of millions of end-users. ? -???????We reserve full and absolute legal rights and remedies in respect to AFRINIC's actions against us. ? We would also like to clarify that as the NRO has stated in their letter, "All RIRs, on occasion, face allegations of errors in implementation of policy or agreements, and such disputes, being routine in nature are best handled by the individual RIR and/or its community ", such routine disagreement (mostly in all the other RIRs, or AFRINIC before this management) is sorted by merely communicating between the tech team and the registration services department of the respective RIR. It has never come to such drastic actions before, like the RIR threatening and endangering the very stability of the Internet. ? We trust the above has shed some light on the matter for all those concerned. We are grateful for the continued belief and support we have received from all of you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Second Letter AFRINIC.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 456359 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Court Ruling and our appeal.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 491204 bytes Desc: not available URL: From erickj.lagon at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 08:00:14 2021 From: erickj.lagon at gmail.com (Erick Joshua Lagon) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 16:00:14 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: I just want to ask the rationale behind AFRINIC?s irrational attitude and decision making - their decision to terminate the membership of Cloud Innovation Ltd. and reclaim our number resources, is putting millions of users on a serious risk of connectivity loss and data compromise. On whose interest are they acting really? Add to the fact that this decision was rushed and was shrouded in mysterious circumstances. Does the Board have any justification for this? Is their any justification beyond reasonable doubt for their sudden and erratic behavior? I hope this opens up a discussion regarding AFRINIC?s transparency and honesty in this issue. Regards, Erick On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 9:39 AM tech wrote: > This letter is a follow-up to the unfortunate incident arising from the > actions taken by AFRINIC (African Network Information Centre), including > terminating our (Cloud Innovation Ltd) membership and reclaiming our number > resources which we consider to have been totally unnecessary, unreasonable, > and unjust. The action has not caused only serious damage to Cloud > Innovation and hundreds of its clients' businesses, but also to hundreds of > millions of end-users who were potentially endangered at the same time. > > > > We are pleased to announce that urgent interim relief has been granted > to Cloud Innovation by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of the Supreme > Court of Mauritius( herewith attached) to prevent AFRINIC from reclaiming > our number resources in such illegal manner. As a result of which, Cloud > Innovation will now be in a position to resume business as normal until the > issues are resolved before the competent courts.. > > > > For the sake of clarity and transparency, we would share with you as set > out below the background which led to the current state of affairs: > > > > - AFRINIC issued a letter to Cloud Innovation on June 23, 2020, > accusing Cloud Innovation of policy violations. AFRINIC threatened to take > actions and demanded an immediate response within 14 days. Despite the > short notice, Cloud Innovation investigated AFRINIC's accusations > carefully. Cloud Innovation did not find any policy violations of its own > but only AFRINIC's own misinterpretation of its policy document and errors > in understanding the nature of BGP. Cloud Innovation duly issued a response > on 13 July 2020, within the deadline set by AFRINIC to explain the > misunderstanding of AFRINIC?s own documents and erroneous assertions > regarding routing. > > > > - After eight months, AFRINIC issued a letter on 10 March 2021 ( > being the first day Mauritius went into a second national lockdown due to > COVID-19) to Cloud Innovation, raising similar alleged breaches as those > alleged in June 2020 but with the following warning note:: > > > > *To address the aforementioned issues, Cloud Innovation Ltd is hereby most > formally required to promptly and accurately submit its ?change request? in > compliance with Clauses 4(a) and 2(d) of the RSA, as well as ensure full > compliance with AFRINIC. The ?change request? must* > > *include:* > > *I. Detailed utilisation information for all the aforementioned IPv4 > prefixes including the services for which the resources are being used and > country of service origin.* > > *II. Planned utilisation of your remaining IPv4 space for the next 8 > months* > > *III.Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by > the close of business.* > > *AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in > its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to > proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud > Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held > liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present > notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. Your > ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close > of business.AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and > will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well > as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to > Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be > held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the > present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance *thereof. > > > > The false accusations made by AFRINIC and our response/views are > attached in a separate document (named:Chronology) for the benefit of all > the community.. > > > > - As the 3rd largest member of AFRINIC, Cloud Innovation serves > hundreds of millions of end-users through hundreds of telecoms and ISPs > around the world. The services, such as hosting websites, counts for > over 1.5 million websites hosted by Cloud Innovation's IP alone. Thus, > there is no way, especially with the size of Cloud Innovation, to fully and > wholly satisfy AFRINIC's request within the timeframe it provided. With the > real threat of membership termination and hundreds of millions of users' > connectivity on the line, Cloud Innovation was left with no option but to > seek the mercy of the court in Mauritius during a period of lockdown with > limited resources. An interim order of injunction was therefore issued by > the Mauritius court on April 7,2021 to protect the interests of end-users > and to forbid AFRINIC from acting irrationally. > > > > > > - By virtue of a judgment issued on the evening of 7 July 2021, > the said injunction was lifted on the basis of a mere legal technicality > basis, which was partially caused by the inability to provide a power of > attorney to our lawyers in Mauritius during the total lockdown of > Mauritius, a direct result of AFRINIC releasing such a letter to us on the > first day of the Mauritius lockdown. > > > > - In order to protect our interests and the hundreds of millions of > users of number resources registered to us, we took immediate action by > filing an appeal against the judgment on the very next day.. > > > > - In order to safeguard its interests, Cloud Innovation had to > again seek urgent relief before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. By > virtue of an interim order of injunction issued on 13 July 2021, AFRINIC > has been restrained and prohibited from terminating our membership and > reclaiming our number resources. The said proceedings are now pending > before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. > > > > - We welcome the urgent intervention of the Supreme Court of > Mauritius for interim relief in order to protect our rights as a member. . > We would like to inform those concerned that the operations of our number > resources will revert to normal at the earliest as AFRINIC is under an > obligation to comply with the Judge?s Order as attached. > > > > - We wish to emphasise that as an AFRINIC member in good standing, > we consistently abide by their policy and strive to contribute to the > community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take any > action against AFRINIC but are obligated to take the appropriate measures > to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds of > millions of end-users. > > > > - We reserve full and absolute legal rights and remedies in respect > to AFRINIC's actions against us. > > > > We would also like to clarify that as the NRO has stated in their letter, > "All RIRs, on occasion, face allegations of errors in implementation of > policy or agreements, and such disputes, being routine in nature are best > handled by the individual RIR and/or its community ", such routine > disagreement (mostly in all the other RIRs, or AFRINIC before this > management) is sorted by merely communicating between the tech team and the > registration services department of the respective RIR. It has never come > to such drastic actions before, like the RIR threatening and endangering > the very stability of the Internet. > > > > We trust the above has shed some light on the matter for all those > concerned. We are grateful for the continued belief and support we have > received from all of you. > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Wed Jul 14 08:35:27 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 01:35:27 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? Message-ID: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> Could AFRINIC please comply with the court order to reinstate Cloud Innovation? It?s one thing when you can?t follow your own rules, but you?re now violating the law and working hard towards a contempt citation. It didn?t take long to screw up our whois entries, it shouldn?t take long to put them back. As of 12:26 PM Mauritius time, Wed. July 14, 2021: whois -h whois.afrinic.net 154.88.0.0 2021/07/14 1:25:44 % This is the AfriNIC Whois server. % The AFRINIC whois database is subject to the following terms of Use. See https://afrinic.net/whois/terms % Note: this output has been filtered. % To receive output for a database update, use the "-B" flag. % Information related to '154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255' % No abuse contact registered for 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 inetnum: 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 netname: CloudInnovation descr: CloudInnovation infrastructure country: US admin-c: APC1-AFRINIC tech-c: APC1-AFRINIC status: ASSIGNED PA remarks: ============REMARK==================== remarks: As a consequence of the termination of the Registration Service remarks: Agreement with Cloud Innovation Ltd, this IP prefix has been revoked remarks: from this Resource Member and it only exists as a placeholder record on remarks: WHOIS as from 8th July 2021 and will be deleted after 7th October 2021. remarks: Kindly note that no further changes are possible for this remarks: prefix(frozen/locked). Users of this prefix and its corresponding route remarks: objects and reverse DNS objects are advised to consider other available remarks: options before the said date. This grace period of 90 days is a remarks: demonstration of good faith of AFRINIC as a Regional Internet Registry remarks: to prevent sudden disruption to the Internet connectivity of the remarks: relevant users. remarks: ============REMARK==================== mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT mnt-routes: AFRINIC-HM-MNT source: AFRINIC # Filtered parent: 154.80.0.0 - 154.95.255.255 person: AFRINIC Placeholder Contact address: 11th Floor, Standard Chartered Tower, 19, Cybercity, Eb??ne, Mauritius phone: tel:+230-403-5100 nic-hdl: APC1-AFRINIC mnt-by: AFRINIC-DB-MNT source: AFRINIC # Filtered Please correct this with all due haste before further enforcement action is required. Thanks, Owen From chresgoro at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 08:44:10 2021 From: chresgoro at gmail.com (Christian Orozco) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 16:44:10 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: I support this. The actions made by AFRINIC were pretty questionable. Is there still a chance that we get their statement regarding this issue? This is to clarify the justifications just in case a similar case occurs. As much as we do not want to put AFRINIC in a bad light, it is undeniable that the community deserves an explanation. Accusing an entity because of a misinterpretation is a fearful act and has consequences. Regards, Christian Orozco On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 4:01 PM Erick Joshua Lagon wrote: > I just want to ask the rationale behind AFRINIC?s irrational attitude and > decision making - their decision to terminate the membership of Cloud > Innovation Ltd. and reclaim our number resources, is putting millions of > users on a serious risk of connectivity loss and data compromise. On whose > interest are they acting really? > > Add to the fact that this decision was rushed and was shrouded in > mysterious circumstances. Does the Board have any justification for this? > Is their any justification beyond reasonable doubt for their sudden and > erratic behavior? I hope this opens up a discussion regarding AFRINIC?s > transparency and honesty in this issue. > > Regards, > Erick > > On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 9:39 AM tech wrote: > >> This letter is a follow-up to the unfortunate incident arising from the >> actions taken by AFRINIC (African Network Information Centre), including >> terminating our (Cloud Innovation Ltd) membership and reclaiming our number >> resources which we consider to have been totally unnecessary, unreasonable, >> and unjust. The action has not caused only serious damage to Cloud >> Innovation and hundreds of its clients' businesses, but also to hundreds of >> millions of end-users who were potentially endangered at the same time. >> >> >> >> We are pleased to announce that urgent interim relief has been granted >> to Cloud Innovation by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of the Supreme >> Court of Mauritius( herewith attached) to prevent AFRINIC from reclaiming >> our number resources in such illegal manner. As a result of which, Cloud >> Innovation will now be in a position to resume business as normal until the >> issues are resolved before the competent courts.. >> >> >> >> For the sake of clarity and transparency, we would share with you as set >> out below the background which led to the current state of affairs: >> >> >> >> - AFRINIC issued a letter to Cloud Innovation on June 23, 2020, >> accusing Cloud Innovation of policy violations. AFRINIC threatened to take >> actions and demanded an immediate response within 14 days. Despite the >> short notice, Cloud Innovation investigated AFRINIC's accusations >> carefully. Cloud Innovation did not find any policy violations of its own >> but only AFRINIC's own misinterpretation of its policy document and errors >> in understanding the nature of BGP. Cloud Innovation duly issued a response >> on 13 July 2020, within the deadline set by AFRINIC to explain the >> misunderstanding of AFRINIC?s own documents and erroneous assertions >> regarding routing. >> >> >> >> - After eight months, AFRINIC issued a letter on 10 March 2021 ( >> being the first day Mauritius went into a second national lockdown due to >> COVID-19) to Cloud Innovation, raising similar alleged breaches as >> those alleged in June 2020 but with the following warning note:: >> >> >> >> *To address the aforementioned issues, Cloud Innovation Ltd is hereby >> most formally required to promptly and accurately submit its ?change >> request? in compliance with Clauses 4(a) and 2(d) of the RSA, as well as >> ensure full compliance with AFRINIC. The ?change request? must* >> >> *include:* >> >> *I. Detailed utilisation information for all the aforementioned IPv4 >> prefixes including the services for which the resources are being used and >> country of service origin.* >> >> *II. Planned utilisation of your remaining IPv4 space for the next 8 >> months* >> >> *III.Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, >> by the close of business.* >> >> *AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in >> its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to >> proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud >> Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held >> liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present >> notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. Your >> ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close >> of business.AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and >> will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well >> as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to >> Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be >> held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the >> present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance * >> thereof. >> >> >> >> The false accusations made by AFRINIC and our response/views are >> attached in a separate document (named:Chronology) for the benefit of all >> the community.. >> >> >> >> - As the 3rd largest member of AFRINIC, Cloud Innovation serves >> hundreds of millions of end-users through hundreds of telecoms and ISPs >> around the world. The services, such as hosting websites, counts for >> over 1.5 million websites hosted by Cloud Innovation's IP alone. Thus, >> there is no way, especially with the size of Cloud Innovation, to fully and >> wholly satisfy AFRINIC's request within the timeframe it provided. With the >> real threat of membership termination and hundreds of millions of users' >> connectivity on the line, Cloud Innovation was left with no option but to >> seek the mercy of the court in Mauritius during a period of lockdown with >> limited resources. An interim order of injunction was therefore issued by >> the Mauritius court on April 7,2021 to protect the interests of end-users >> and to forbid AFRINIC from acting irrationally. >> >> >> >> >> >> - By virtue of a judgment issued on the evening of 7 July 2021, >> the said injunction was lifted on the basis of a mere legal technicality >> basis, which was partially caused by the inability to provide a power of >> attorney to our lawyers in Mauritius during the total lockdown of >> Mauritius, a direct result of AFRINIC releasing such a letter to us on the >> first day of the Mauritius lockdown. >> >> >> >> - In order to protect our interests and the hundreds of millions >> of users of number resources registered to us, we took immediate action by >> filing an appeal against the judgment on the very next day.. >> >> >> >> - In order to safeguard its interests, Cloud Innovation had to >> again seek urgent relief before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. By >> virtue of an interim order of injunction issued on 13 July 2021, AFRINIC >> has been restrained and prohibited from terminating our membership and >> reclaiming our number resources. The said proceedings are now pending >> before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. >> >> >> >> - We welcome the urgent intervention of the Supreme Court of >> Mauritius for interim relief in order to protect our rights as a member. . >> We would like to inform those concerned that the operations of our number >> resources will revert to normal at the earliest as AFRINIC is under an >> obligation to comply with the Judge?s Order as attached. >> >> >> >> - We wish to emphasise that as an AFRINIC member in good standing, >> we consistently abide by their policy and strive to contribute to the >> community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take any >> action against AFRINIC but are obligated to take the appropriate measures >> to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds of >> millions of end-users. >> >> >> >> - We reserve full and absolute legal rights and remedies in >> respect to AFRINIC's actions against us. >> >> >> >> We would also like to clarify that as the NRO has stated in their letter, >> "All RIRs, on occasion, face allegations of errors in implementation of >> policy or agreements, and such disputes, being routine in nature are best >> handled by the individual RIR and/or its community ", such routine >> disagreement (mostly in all the other RIRs, or AFRINIC before this >> management) is sorted by merely communicating between the tech team and the >> registration services department of the respective RIR. It has never come >> to such drastic actions before, like the RIR threatening and endangering >> the very stability of the Internet. >> >> >> >> We trust the above has shed some light on the matter for all those >> concerned. We are grateful for the continued belief and support we have >> received from all of you. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dndannang at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 08:49:29 2021 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 11:49:29 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? In-Reply-To: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> References: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> Message-ID: Someone, please help - What is the meaning of this? [image: image.png] ? On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 11:36, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > Could AFRINIC please comply with the court order to reinstate Cloud > Innovation? > > It?s one thing when you can?t follow your own rules, but you?re now > violating the law and > working hard towards a contempt citation. It didn?t take long to screw up > our whois entries, > it shouldn?t take long to put them back. > > As of 12:26 PM Mauritius time, Wed. July 14, 2021: > > whois -h whois.afrinic.net 154.88.0.0 > 2021/07/14 1:25:44 > % This is the AfriNIC Whois server. > % The AFRINIC whois database is subject to the following terms of Use. > See https://afrinic.net/whois/terms > > % Note: this output has been filtered. > % To receive output for a database update, use the "-B" flag. > > % Information related to '154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255' > > % No abuse contact registered for 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 > > inetnum: 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 > netname: CloudInnovation > descr: CloudInnovation infrastructure > country: US > admin-c: APC1-AFRINIC > tech-c: APC1-AFRINIC > status: ASSIGNED PA > remarks: ============REMARK==================== > remarks: As a consequence of the termination of the Registration > Service > remarks: Agreement with Cloud Innovation Ltd, this IP prefix has > been revoked > remarks: from this Resource Member and it only exists as a > placeholder record on > remarks: WHOIS as from 8th July 2021 and will be deleted after 7th > October 2021. > remarks: Kindly note that no further changes are possible for this > remarks: prefix(frozen/locked). Users of this prefix and its > corresponding route > remarks: objects and reverse DNS objects are advised to consider > other available > remarks: options before the said date. This grace period of 90 days > is a > remarks: demonstration of good faith of AFRINIC as a Regional > Internet Registry > remarks: to prevent sudden disruption to the Internet connectivity > of the > remarks: relevant users. > remarks: ============REMARK==================== > mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT > mnt-routes: AFRINIC-HM-MNT > source: AFRINIC # Filtered > parent: 154.80.0.0 - 154.95.255.255 > > person: AFRINIC Placeholder Contact > address: 11th Floor, Standard Chartered Tower, 19, Cybercity, > Eb??ne, Mauritius > phone: tel:+230-403-5100 > nic-hdl: APC1-AFRINIC > mnt-by: AFRINIC-DB-MNT > source: AFRINIC # Filtered > > Please correct this with all due haste before further enforcement action > is required. > > > Thanks, > > Owen > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 54756 bytes Desc: not available URL: From silber.mike at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 08:50:48 2021 From: silber.mike at gmail.com (Mike Silber) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:50:48 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: <3E2EA425-5C95-4624-9364-38046B1DA02B@gmail.com> Hi Erick > On 14 Jul 2021, at 10:00, Erick Joshua Lagon wrote: > > I just want to ask the rationale behind AFRINIC?s irrational attitude and decision making - their decision to terminate the membership of Cloud Innovation Ltd. and reclaim our number resources, is putting millions of users on a serious risk of connectivity loss and data compromise. On whose interest are they acting really? (my emphasis) So you admit you represent CIL and your incessant posting is little more than an attempt at astroturfing? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From silber.mike at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 08:59:45 2021 From: silber.mike at gmail.com (Mike Silber) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:59:45 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: Thank you for sharing the information and documentation. It is really refreshing to get facts and evidence ? rather than opinion. This is a challenge to AfriNIC: why does it take the opposing party to litigation to be transparent. It is a real indictment that CIL and not AfriNIC is publishing the injunction! I suggest you publish ALL the relevant documentation - or there will be only one fact based narrative! Mike > On 14 Jul 2021, at 03:38, tech wrote: > > This letter is a follow-up to the unfortunate incident arising from the actions taken by AFRINIC (African Network Information Centre), including terminating our (Cloud Innovation Ltd) membership and reclaiming our number resources which we consider to have been totally unnecessary, unreasonable, and unjust. The action has not caused only serious damage to Cloud Innovation and hundreds of its clients' businesses, but also to hundreds of millions of end-users who were potentially endangered at the same time. > > We are pleased to announce that urgent interim relief has been granted to Cloud Innovation by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of the Supreme Court of Mauritius( herewith attached) to prevent AFRINIC from reclaiming our number resources in such illegal manner. As a result of which, Cloud Innovation will now be in a position to resume business as normal until the issues are resolved before the competent courts.. > > For the sake of clarity and transparency, we would share with you as set out below the background which led to the current state of affairs: > > - AFRINIC issued a letter to Cloud Innovation on June 23, 2020, accusing Cloud Innovation of policy violations. AFRINIC threatened to take actions and demanded an immediate response within 14 days. Despite the short notice, Cloud Innovation investigated AFRINIC's accusations carefully. Cloud Innovation did not find any policy violations of its own but only AFRINIC's own misinterpretation of its policy document and errors in understanding the nature of BGP. Cloud Innovation duly issued a response on 13 July 2020, within the deadline set by AFRINIC to explain the misunderstanding of AFRINIC?s own documents and erroneous assertions regarding routing. > > - After eight months, AFRINIC issued a letter on 10 March 2021 ( being the first day Mauritius went into a second national lockdown due to COVID-19) to Cloud Innovation, raising similar alleged breaches as those alleged in June 2020 but with the following warning note:: > > To address the aforementioned issues, Cloud Innovation Ltd is hereby most formally required to promptly and accurately submit its ?change request? in compliance with Clauses 4(a) and 2(d) of the RSA, as well as ensure full compliance with AFRINIC. The ?change request? must > include: > I. Detailed utilisation information for all the aforementioned IPv4 prefixes including the services for which the resources are being used and country of service origin. > II. Planned utilisation of your remaining IPv4 space for the next 8 months > III.Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close of business. > AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close of business.AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. > > The false accusations made by AFRINIC and our response/views are attached in a separate document (named:Chronology) for the benefit of all the community.. > > - As the 3rd largest member of AFRINIC, Cloud Innovation serves hundreds of millions of end-users through hundreds of telecoms and ISPs around the world. The services, such as hosting websites, counts for over 1.5 million websites hosted by Cloud Innovation's IP alone. Thus, there is no way, especially with the size of Cloud Innovation, to fully and wholly satisfy AFRINIC's request within the timeframe it provided. With the real threat of membership termination and hundreds of millions of users' connectivity on the line, Cloud Innovation was left with no option but to seek the mercy of the court in Mauritius during a period of lockdown with limited resources. An interim order of injunction was therefore issued by the Mauritius court on April 7,2021 to protect the interests of end-users and to forbid AFRINIC from acting irrationally. > > > - By virtue of a judgment issued on the evening of 7 July 2021, the said injunction was lifted on the basis of a mere legal technicality basis, which was partially caused by the inability to provide a power of attorney to our lawyers in Mauritius during the total lockdown of Mauritius, a direct result of AFRINIC releasing such a letter to us on the first day of the Mauritius lockdown. > > - In order to protect our interests and the hundreds of millions of users of number resources registered to us, we took immediate action by filing an appeal against the judgment on the very next day.. > > - In order to safeguard its interests, Cloud Innovation had to again seek urgent relief before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. By virtue of an interim order of injunction issued on 13 July 2021, AFRINIC has been restrained and prohibited from terminating our membership and reclaiming our number resources. The said proceedings are now pending before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. > > - We welcome the urgent intervention of the Supreme Court of Mauritius for interim relief in order to protect our rights as a member. . We would like to inform those concerned that the operations of our number resources will revert to normal at the earliest as AFRINIC is under an obligation to comply with the Judge?s Order as attached. > > - We wish to emphasise that as an AFRINIC member in good standing, we consistently abide by their policy and strive to contribute to the community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take any action against AFRINIC but are obligated to take the appropriate measures to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds of millions of end-users. > > - We reserve full and absolute legal rights and remedies in respect to AFRINIC's actions against us. > > We would also like to clarify that as the NRO has stated in their letter, "All RIRs, on occasion, face allegations of errors in implementation of policy or agreements, and such disputes, being routine in nature are best handled by the individual RIR and/or its community ", such routine disagreement (mostly in all the other RIRs, or AFRINIC before this management) is sorted by merely communicating between the tech team and the registration services department of the respective RIR. It has never come to such drastic actions before, like the RIR threatening and endangering the very stability of the Internet. > > We trust the above has shed some light on the matter for all those concerned. We are grateful for the continued belief and support we have received from all of you. > > > < Chronology.pdf>_______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erickj.lagon at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 09:07:59 2021 From: erickj.lagon at gmail.com (Erick Joshua Lagon) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 17:07:59 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <3E2EA425-5C95-4624-9364-38046B1DA02B@gmail.com> References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> <3E2EA425-5C95-4624-9364-38046B1DA02B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Mike, That was a mistake on my part. I do not represent anyone here. I am representing everyone that is bound to be affected by this decision by the AFRINIC. As we all know that the Internet is a universal resource, and with this decision by AFRINIC, it is not impossible for someone to not encounter Cloud Innovation's number resources worldwide, which makes its OUR number resource as end-users. This is only my musing as an end-user, who is also bound to be affected by this action. I am advocating for the transparency and honesty of the AFRINIC regarding this matter. Regards, Erick On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 4:50 PM Mike Silber wrote: > Hi Erick > > On 14 Jul 2021, at 10:00, Erick Joshua Lagon > wrote: > > I just want to ask the rationale behind AFRINIC?s irrational attitude and > decision making - their decision to terminate the membership of Cloud > Innovation Ltd. and reclaim *our number resources*, is putting millions > of users on a serious risk of connectivity loss and data compromise. On > whose interest are they acting really? > > > (my emphasis) > > So you admit you represent CIL and your incessant posting is little more > than an attempt at astroturfing? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pascosoft at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 09:08:44 2021 From: pascosoft at gmail.com (Paschal Ochang) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:08:44 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: Dissolution of Appeal Committees while appeals are still on board without justification, non transparent reclamation of resources from members without proper justification using drastic measures, installation of new cochairs without conforming to laid down procedures. The list goes on and on. Worrying times. On Wednesday, July 14, 2021, tech wrote: > This letter is a follow-up to the unfortunate incident arising from the > actions taken by AFRINIC (African Network Information Centre), including > terminating our (Cloud Innovation Ltd) membership and reclaiming our number > resources which we consider to have been totally unnecessary, unreasonable, > and unjust. The action has not caused only serious damage to Cloud > Innovation and hundreds of its clients' businesses, but also to hundreds of > millions of end-users who were potentially endangered at the same time. > > > > We are pleased to announce that urgent interim relief has been granted > to Cloud Innovation by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of the Supreme > Court of Mauritius( herewith attached) to prevent AFRINIC from reclaiming > our number resources in such illegal manner. As a result of which, Cloud > Innovation will now be in a position to resume business as normal until the > issues are resolved before the competent courts.. > > > > For the sake of clarity and transparency, we would share with you as set > out below the background which led to the current state of affairs: > > > > - AFRINIC issued a letter to Cloud Innovation on June 23, 2020, > accusing Cloud Innovation of policy violations. AFRINIC threatened to take > actions and demanded an immediate response within 14 days. Despite the > short notice, Cloud Innovation investigated AFRINIC's accusations > carefully. Cloud Innovation did not find any policy violations of its own > but only AFRINIC's own misinterpretation of its policy document and errors > in understanding the nature of BGP. Cloud Innovation duly issued a response > on 13 July 2020, within the deadline set by AFRINIC to explain the > misunderstanding of AFRINIC?s own documents and erroneous assertions > regarding routing. > > > > - After eight months, AFRINIC issued a letter on 10 March 2021 ( > being the first day Mauritius went into a second national lockdown due to > COVID-19) to Cloud Innovation, raising similar alleged breaches as those > alleged in June 2020 but with the following warning note:: > > > > *To address the aforementioned issues, Cloud Innovation Ltd is hereby most > formally required to promptly and accurately submit its ?change request? in > compliance with Clauses 4(a) and 2(d) of the RSA, as well as ensure full > compliance with AFRINIC. The ?change request? must* > > *include:* > > *I. Detailed utilisation information for all the aforementioned IPv4 > prefixes including the services for which the resources are being used and > country of service origin.* > > *II. Planned utilisation of your remaining IPv4 space for the next 8 > months* > > *III.Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by > the close of business.* > > *AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in > its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to > proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud > Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held > liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present > notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. Your > ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close > of business.AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and > will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well > as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to > Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be > held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the > present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance *thereof. > > > > The false accusations made by AFRINIC and our response/views are > attached in a separate document (named:Chronology) for the benefit of all > the community.. > > > > - As the 3rd largest member of AFRINIC, Cloud Innovation serves > hundreds of millions of end-users through hundreds of telecoms and ISPs > around the world. The services, such as hosting websites, counts for > over 1.5 million websites hosted by Cloud Innovation's IP alone. Thus, > there is no way, especially with the size of Cloud Innovation, to fully and > wholly satisfy AFRINIC's request within the timeframe it provided. With the > real threat of membership termination and hundreds of millions of users' > connectivity on the line, Cloud Innovation was left with no option but to > seek the mercy of the court in Mauritius during a period of lockdown with > limited resources. An interim order of injunction was therefore issued by > the Mauritius court on April 7,2021 to protect the interests of end-users > and to forbid AFRINIC from acting irrationally. > > > > > > - By virtue of a judgment issued on the evening of 7 July 2021, > the said injunction was lifted on the basis of a mere legal technicality > basis, which was partially caused by the inability to provide a power of > attorney to our lawyers in Mauritius during the total lockdown of > Mauritius, a direct result of AFRINIC releasing such a letter to us on the > first day of the Mauritius lockdown. > > > > - In order to protect our interests and the hundreds of millions of > users of number resources registered to us, we took immediate action by > filing an appeal against the judgment on the very next day.. > > > > - In order to safeguard its interests, Cloud Innovation had to > again seek urgent relief before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. By > virtue of an interim order of injunction issued on 13 July 2021, AFRINIC > has been restrained and prohibited from terminating our membership and > reclaiming our number resources. The said proceedings are now pending > before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. > > > > - We welcome the urgent intervention of the Supreme Court of > Mauritius for interim relief in order to protect our rights as a member. . > We would like to inform those concerned that the operations of our number > resources will revert to normal at the earliest as AFRINIC is under an > obligation to comply with the Judge?s Order as attached. > > > > - We wish to emphasise that as an AFRINIC member in good standing, > we consistently abide by their policy and strive to contribute to the > community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take any > action against AFRINIC but are obligated to take the appropriate measures > to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds of > millions of end-users. > > > > - We reserve full and absolute legal rights and remedies in respect > to AFRINIC's actions against us. > > > > We would also like to clarify that as the NRO has stated in their letter, > "All RIRs, on occasion, face allegations of errors in implementation of > policy or agreements, and such disputes, being routine in nature are best > handled by the individual RIR and/or its community ", such routine > disagreement (mostly in all the other RIRs, or AFRINIC before this > management) is sorted by merely communicating between the tech team and the > registration services department of the respective RIR. It has never come > to such drastic actions before, like the RIR threatening and endangering > the very stability of the Internet. > > > > We trust the above has shed some light on the matter for all those > concerned. We are grateful for the continued belief and support we have > received from all of you. > > > -- Kind regards, Paschal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin.kamonye at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 09:16:46 2021 From: kevin.kamonye at gmail.com (Kevin Kamonye) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 12:16:46 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: Worrying times indeed. Thank you for preparing and sharing the detailed documentation. AFRINIC?? Regards, Kevin ? ? On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 12:09, Paschal Ochang wrote: > Dissolution of Appeal Committees while appeals are still on board without > justification, non transparent reclamation of resources from members > without proper justification using drastic measures, installation of new > cochairs without conforming to laid down procedures. The list goes on and > on. Worrying times. > > On Wednesday, July 14, 2021, tech wrote: > >> This letter is a follow-up to the unfortunate incident arising from the >> actions taken by AFRINIC (African Network Information Centre), including >> terminating our (Cloud Innovation Ltd) membership and reclaiming our number >> resources which we consider to have been totally unnecessary, unreasonable, >> and unjust. The action has not caused only serious damage to Cloud >> Innovation and hundreds of its clients' businesses, but also to hundreds of >> millions of end-users who were potentially endangered at the same time. >> >> >> >> We are pleased to announce that urgent interim relief has been granted >> to Cloud Innovation by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of the Supreme >> Court of Mauritius( herewith attached) to prevent AFRINIC from reclaiming >> our number resources in such illegal manner. As a result of which, Cloud >> Innovation will now be in a position to resume business as normal until the >> issues are resolved before the competent courts.. >> >> >> >> For the sake of clarity and transparency, we would share with you as set >> out below the background which led to the current state of affairs: >> >> >> >> - AFRINIC issued a letter to Cloud Innovation on June 23, 2020, >> accusing Cloud Innovation of policy violations. AFRINIC threatened to take >> actions and demanded an immediate response within 14 days. Despite the >> short notice, Cloud Innovation investigated AFRINIC's accusations >> carefully. Cloud Innovation did not find any policy violations of its own >> but only AFRINIC's own misinterpretation of its policy document and errors >> in understanding the nature of BGP. Cloud Innovation duly issued a response >> on 13 July 2020, within the deadline set by AFRINIC to explain the >> misunderstanding of AFRINIC?s own documents and erroneous assertions >> regarding routing. >> >> >> >> - After eight months, AFRINIC issued a letter on 10 March 2021 ( >> being the first day Mauritius went into a second national lockdown due to >> COVID-19) to Cloud Innovation, raising similar alleged breaches as >> those alleged in June 2020 but with the following warning note:: >> >> >> >> *To address the aforementioned issues, Cloud Innovation Ltd is hereby >> most formally required to promptly and accurately submit its ?change >> request? in compliance with Clauses 4(a) and 2(d) of the RSA, as well as >> ensure full compliance with AFRINIC. The ?change request? must* >> >> *include:* >> >> *I. Detailed utilisation information for all the aforementioned IPv4 >> prefixes including the services for which the resources are being used and >> country of service origin.* >> >> *II. Planned utilisation of your remaining IPv4 space for the next 8 >> months* >> >> *III.Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, >> by the close of business.* >> >> *AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in >> its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to >> proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud >> Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held >> liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present >> notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. Your >> ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close >> of business.AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and >> will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well >> as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to >> Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be >> held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the >> present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance * >> thereof. >> >> >> >> The false accusations made by AFRINIC and our response/views are >> attached in a separate document (named:Chronology) for the benefit of all >> the community.. >> >> >> >> - As the 3rd largest member of AFRINIC, Cloud Innovation serves >> hundreds of millions of end-users through hundreds of telecoms and ISPs >> around the world. The services, such as hosting websites, counts for >> over 1.5 million websites hosted by Cloud Innovation's IP alone. Thus, >> there is no way, especially with the size of Cloud Innovation, to fully and >> wholly satisfy AFRINIC's request within the timeframe it provided. With the >> real threat of membership termination and hundreds of millions of users' >> connectivity on the line, Cloud Innovation was left with no option but to >> seek the mercy of the court in Mauritius during a period of lockdown with >> limited resources. An interim order of injunction was therefore issued by >> the Mauritius court on April 7,2021 to protect the interests of end-users >> and to forbid AFRINIC from acting irrationally. >> >> >> >> >> >> - By virtue of a judgment issued on the evening of 7 July 2021, >> the said injunction was lifted on the basis of a mere legal technicality >> basis, which was partially caused by the inability to provide a power of >> attorney to our lawyers in Mauritius during the total lockdown of >> Mauritius, a direct result of AFRINIC releasing such a letter to us on the >> first day of the Mauritius lockdown. >> >> >> >> - In order to protect our interests and the hundreds of millions >> of users of number resources registered to us, we took immediate action by >> filing an appeal against the judgment on the very next day.. >> >> >> >> - In order to safeguard its interests, Cloud Innovation had to >> again seek urgent relief before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. By >> virtue of an interim order of injunction issued on 13 July 2021, AFRINIC >> has been restrained and prohibited from terminating our membership and >> reclaiming our number resources. The said proceedings are now pending >> before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. >> >> >> >> - We welcome the urgent intervention of the Supreme Court of >> Mauritius for interim relief in order to protect our rights as a member. . >> We would like to inform those concerned that the operations of our number >> resources will revert to normal at the earliest as AFRINIC is under an >> obligation to comply with the Judge?s Order as attached. >> >> >> >> - We wish to emphasise that as an AFRINIC member in good standing, >> we consistently abide by their policy and strive to contribute to the >> community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take any >> action against AFRINIC but are obligated to take the appropriate measures >> to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds of >> millions of end-users. >> >> >> >> - We reserve full and absolute legal rights and remedies in >> respect to AFRINIC's actions against us. >> >> >> >> We would also like to clarify that as the NRO has stated in their letter, >> "All RIRs, on occasion, face allegations of errors in implementation of >> policy or agreements, and such disputes, being routine in nature are best >> handled by the individual RIR and/or its community ", such routine >> disagreement (mostly in all the other RIRs, or AFRINIC before this >> management) is sorted by merely communicating between the tech team and the >> registration services department of the respective RIR. It has never come >> to such drastic actions before, like the RIR threatening and endangering >> the very stability of the Internet. >> >> >> >> We trust the above has shed some light on the matter for all those >> concerned. We are grateful for the continued belief and support we have >> received from all of you. >> >> >> > > -- > Kind regards, > > Paschal. > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From silber.mike at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 09:17:48 2021 From: silber.mike at gmail.com (Mike Silber) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 11:17:48 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Notice of imminent reclamation of number resources In-Reply-To: References: <77D4E158-9DDB-4898-9F12-8F9891FDE184@afrinic.net> <17a8a05c244.11c7dce2698390.4816319699309652547@africaoncloud.net> <17D47571-0527-4D86-9056-68BEEF564ABF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Owen Apologies for top-posting ?. but this thread is getting over-long. I suspect your suppositions are all correct. If they are indeed all correct, then it would appear that Mr Wollner is acting as a proxy for CIL and the questions he raised would be more appropriately raised by CIL - either on this list or before a court? These are NOT general questions or comments about AfriNIC governance (which I will be happy to debate) but rather very specific to the current issue. So, to me this looks like more astroturfing. Mike > On 13 Jul 2021, at 18:55, Owen DeLong wrote: > > > >> On Jul 9, 2021, at 04:27 , Mike Silber > wrote: >> >> Hi Owen >> >> I was not specifically responding to your comments and in fact I agreed with several of them. >> >> Apologies if I did not make it clear. > > OK? It wasn?t clear and I missed that, I guess. In any case, no offense taken. We?ve been friends for several years and even though we may disagree from time to time, I know you to be a fellow person of honor who also consistently tries to do right and act in the interests and service of the community. > >> The board minutes have improved a lot ?. but can use a lot more work. The practice of publishing resolutions prior to the minutes being published is also a very good practice - though it may not be satisfying to you and others, as it lacks some of the detail you seem to seek. > > You get no argument from me on this point. > >> Thank you for confirming that this issue is directly relevant to you (I assume as a consultant to Cloud Innovation?). > > Correct. > >> Mr Wollner and others have not been as forthright in disclosing their interests ?. leading to speculation. > > To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Wollner is CEO of Africa On Cloud, a service provider in South Africa and a resource member of AFRINIC. > >> My concern about possible hypocrisy related to this list of questions and the astroturfing that has succeeded it: >> >>>>>> Which board members agreed to the meeting on short notice? >> >> How does Mr Wollner know it was at short notice? It may have been a regular meeting for all he knows. > > I suspect this is speculation due to the timing (Court ruled just the day before the board met and took this > action). I suppose there is the possibility that the timing was coincidental, but surely it is not unreasonable > absent other information to assume that the board acting on July 8 in regards to a court order issued on > July 7 represents a very rapid convening of said board. > >>>>>> 2. Which board members voted in favor of the motion and which against? >> >> This is never disclosed in minutes. Why is it now relevant but was not a month or a year ago? > > It should be disclosed on all motions, IMHO. It was relevant a month and a year ago and I believe i have > raised objection to the lack of this information at several open microphone sessions. > >>>>>> 3. Who tabled and who seconded the motion? >> >> This will appear in the minutes in due course. Why the need for it to be provided on an expedited basis? >> >>>>>> 4. What was the nature and extent of deliberations? >> >> This will appear in the minutes in due course. Why the need for it to be provided on an expedited basis? > > I can?t speak to Paul?s sense of urgency, but given the unprecedented nature of the situation and the > severity of the consequences, i can say that I would certainly prefer to know sooner rather than later. > >>>>>> 5. Why the urgency to act so swiftly after the judge set aside the order? >> >> This may appear in the minutes in due course. The minutes are not uniform in their level of detail. Why the need for it to be provided on an expedited basis? > > Sure. I only hope that AFRINIC will respond with the same sense of urgency and swiftness of action to the latest order from the courts. > >>>>>> 6. When was the meeting noticed? >> >> This has not appeared in any minutes to date. Why is it now relevant but was not a month or a year ago? > > I suspect this isn?t so much about minutes as about understanding how the meeting was convened and whether proper process was followed in this case of an apparently urgent meeting. > >>>>>> 7. When did the meeting take place? >> >> This will appear in the minutes in due course. Why the need for it to be provided on an expedited basis? > > Among other things, depending on the timeline, it may be evidence that AFRINIC has acted in bad faith and in anticipation of the court order which had not yet been issued. As such, the community has a clear interest in verifying this information. > >>>>>> 8. How/where did the meeting take place? >> >> This will appear in the minutes in due course. Why the need for it to be provided on an expedited basis? > > I would suspect the same reasons as 7, above. Certainly any board taking such extraordinary and unprecedented actions so swiftly with such large consequences to a member of the organization should expect additional scrutiny of their process from the community/membership, no? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dndannang at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 10:23:45 2021 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:23:45 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: I would like to appreciate the level of transparency that is being put forward here by Cloud Innovation. The fact that they Cloud Innovation is sharing information and also the excel sheets as has been attached. You claim that million of users have been affected during the process. Could you kindly share the tickets of the affected users as you have shared the respective information? I feel there could be some information that is not being shared here. Where are the hundreds of millions of users of number resources registered to Cloud Innovation located? Regards Daniel ? On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 12:18, Kevin Kamonye wrote: > Worrying times indeed. > > Thank you for preparing and sharing the detailed documentation. > > AFRINIC?? > > Regards, > > Kevin > > ? > ? > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 12:09, Paschal Ochang wrote: > >> Dissolution of Appeal Committees while appeals are still on board without >> justification, non transparent reclamation of resources from members >> without proper justification using drastic measures, installation of new >> cochairs without conforming to laid down procedures. The list goes on and >> on. Worrying times. >> >> On Wednesday, July 14, 2021, tech wrote: >> >>> This letter is a follow-up to the unfortunate incident arising from the >>> actions taken by AFRINIC (African Network Information Centre), including >>> terminating our (Cloud Innovation Ltd) membership and reclaiming our number >>> resources which we consider to have been totally unnecessary, unreasonable, >>> and unjust. The action has not caused only serious damage to Cloud >>> Innovation and hundreds of its clients' businesses, but also to hundreds of >>> millions of end-users who were potentially endangered at the same time. >>> >>> >>> >>> We are pleased to announce that urgent interim relief has been granted >>> to Cloud Innovation by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of the Supreme >>> Court of Mauritius( herewith attached) to prevent AFRINIC from reclaiming >>> our number resources in such illegal manner. As a result of which, Cloud >>> Innovation will now be in a position to resume business as normal until the >>> issues are resolved before the competent courts.. >>> >>> >>> >>> For the sake of clarity and transparency, we would share with you as set >>> out below the background which led to the current state of affairs: >>> >>> >>> >>> - AFRINIC issued a letter to Cloud Innovation on June 23, 2020, >>> accusing Cloud Innovation of policy violations. AFRINIC threatened to take >>> actions and demanded an immediate response within 14 days. Despite the >>> short notice, Cloud Innovation investigated AFRINIC's accusations >>> carefully. Cloud Innovation did not find any policy violations of its own >>> but only AFRINIC's own misinterpretation of its policy document and errors >>> in understanding the nature of BGP. Cloud Innovation duly issued a response >>> on 13 July 2020, within the deadline set by AFRINIC to explain the >>> misunderstanding of AFRINIC?s own documents and erroneous assertions >>> regarding routing. >>> >>> >>> >>> - After eight months, AFRINIC issued a letter on 10 March 2021 ( >>> being the first day Mauritius went into a second national lockdown due to >>> COVID-19) to Cloud Innovation, raising similar alleged breaches as >>> those alleged in June 2020 but with the following warning note:: >>> >>> >>> >>> *To address the aforementioned issues, Cloud Innovation Ltd is hereby >>> most formally required to promptly and accurately submit its ?change >>> request? in compliance with Clauses 4(a) and 2(d) of the RSA, as well as >>> ensure full compliance with AFRINIC. The ?change request? must* >>> >>> *include:* >>> >>> *I. Detailed utilisation information for all the aforementioned IPv4 >>> prefixes including the services for which the resources are being used and >>> country of service origin.* >>> >>> *II. Planned utilisation of your remaining IPv4 space for the next 8 >>> months* >>> >>> *III.Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, >>> by the close of business.* >>> >>> *AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in >>> its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to >>> proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud >>> Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held >>> liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present >>> notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. Your >>> ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close >>> of business.AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and >>> will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well >>> as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to >>> Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be >>> held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the >>> present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance * >>> thereof. >>> >>> >>> >>> The false accusations made by AFRINIC and our response/views >>> are attached in a separate document (named:Chronology) for the benefit of >>> all the community.. >>> >>> >>> >>> - As the 3rd largest member of AFRINIC, Cloud Innovation serves >>> hundreds of millions of end-users through hundreds of telecoms and ISPs >>> around the world. The services, such as hosting websites, counts for >>> over 1.5 million websites hosted by Cloud Innovation's IP alone. Thus, >>> there is no way, especially with the size of Cloud Innovation, to fully and >>> wholly satisfy AFRINIC's request within the timeframe it provided. With the >>> real threat of membership termination and hundreds of millions of users' >>> connectivity on the line, Cloud Innovation was left with no option but to >>> seek the mercy of the court in Mauritius during a period of lockdown with >>> limited resources. An interim order of injunction was therefore issued by >>> the Mauritius court on April 7,2021 to protect the interests of end-users >>> and to forbid AFRINIC from acting irrationally. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> - By virtue of a judgment issued on the evening of 7 July 2021, >>> the said injunction was lifted on the basis of a mere legal technicality >>> basis, which was partially caused by the inability to provide a power of >>> attorney to our lawyers in Mauritius during the total lockdown of >>> Mauritius, a direct result of AFRINIC releasing such a letter to us on the >>> first day of the Mauritius lockdown. >>> >>> >>> >>> - In order to protect our interests and the hundreds of millions >>> of users of number resources registered to us, we took immediate action by >>> filing an appeal against the judgment on the very next day.. >>> >>> >>> >>> - In order to safeguard its interests, Cloud Innovation had to >>> again seek urgent relief before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. By >>> virtue of an interim order of injunction issued on 13 July 2021, AFRINIC >>> has been restrained and prohibited from terminating our membership and >>> reclaiming our number resources. The said proceedings are now pending >>> before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. >>> >>> >>> >>> - We welcome the urgent intervention of the Supreme Court of >>> Mauritius for interim relief in order to protect our rights as a member. . >>> We would like to inform those concerned that the operations of our number >>> resources will revert to normal at the earliest as AFRINIC is under an >>> obligation to comply with the Judge?s Order as attached. >>> >>> >>> >>> - We wish to emphasise that as an AFRINIC member in good >>> standing, we consistently abide by their policy and strive to contribute to >>> the community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take >>> any action against AFRINIC but are obligated to take the appropriate >>> measures to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds >>> of millions of end-users. >>> >>> >>> >>> - We reserve full and absolute legal rights and remedies in >>> respect to AFRINIC's actions against us. >>> >>> >>> >>> We would also like to clarify that as the NRO has stated in their >>> letter, "All RIRs, on occasion, face allegations of errors in >>> implementation of policy or agreements, and such disputes, being routine in >>> nature are best handled by the individual RIR and/or its community ", such >>> routine disagreement (mostly in all the other RIRs, or AFRINIC before this >>> management) is sorted by merely communicating between the tech team and the >>> registration services department of the respective RIR. It has never come >>> to such drastic actions before, like the RIR threatening and endangering >>> the very stability of the Internet. >>> >>> >>> >>> We trust the above has shed some light on the matter for all those >>> concerned. We are grateful for the continued belief and support we have >>> received from all of you. >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Kind regards, >> >> Paschal. >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From madomey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 10:25:09 2021 From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:25:09 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Dear Owen and PDWG, I don?t think this is an off-topic. There are reasons why we always have session on ?policy update from other RIRs? at every PPM?it?s like we care for what happened at ARIN PDP through its AC and possible impact on our PDP and related issues In response to the statement below, one would like to know why is Owen talking about ? was not forced to resign?? Nobody said so AFAIK, how come the position at ARIN constitute restraint to speech and why only now? And question for this community is how do we deal with conflict of interest in our PDP? Thanks Marcus ________________________________ From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:03:19 PM To: Arnaud AMELINA Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC ; AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? Apologies to the list for this off-topic posting, but given the unwarranted attention already paid to the matter and the escalating level of speculation, I beg your indulgence. This will (hopefully) be the only post I make on the matter here. For clarity: 1. I chose to resign my position on the ARIN AC. I was not forced to resign. I did not have to resign. So your speculation is neither accurate, nor appropriate and the implications are offensive. 2. I chose to resign in order to have greater freedom and flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of interest with my role as an Advisory Council member. While I have been outspoken by most standards, the reality is that my position on the AC did serve as a significant restraint to my speech in many cases. The time has come where I felt the need to remove that restraint in order to best serve the community. Reading anything other than the above into it would be a mistake and further speculation is very unlikely to produce any accurate conclusions. If anyone has questions about my resignation, they are free to ask me directly, but this really is not an appropriate topic for this list. Owen On Jul 13, 2021, at 05:56 , Arnaud AMELINA > wrote: @Taiwo We all would like to know why Owen, so active in our PDP, has to resign from his position at ARIN AC which serves in an advisory capacity to the Board of Trustees on Internet number resource policy and related matters. -- Arnaud Le lun. 12 juil. 2021 ? 12:37, Taiwo Oye > a ?crit : ?Benjilo. How is this of concern to you or to any of the members of the afrinic community. Kindly direct your question to the appropriate quarters - owen at delong.com - On Jul 11, 2021, at 19:27, Paschal Ochang > wrote: ?Great question Daniel. On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA > wrote: Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: Hello Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP resigned from ARIN AC? https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 Marcus _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- Kind regards, Paschal. _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ RPD mailing list RPD at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dym5328 at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 10:31:35 2021 From: dym5328 at gmail.com (Mimi dy) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 11:31:35 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: Hello all, Based on the undoubtful evidence provided by CI, it became clear that AFRINIC's power abuse is off the charts. I have never thought that an RIR could ever jeopardize the internet infrastructure and threatens the normal functioning of networks, putting a massive number of end-users in a critical situation. I thought that the very vocation of an RIR is to ensure smooth internet connectivity and develop that particular ecosystem, however, all I see now is a total abandonment of the RIRs core values and a complete disregard to various internet stakeholders. I must say, that is quite shocking. It literally shakes the trust between the community and AFRINIC. In fact, the whole community now awaits AFRINIC's explanation, which hopefully, will be backed by adequate evidence. Best, Le mer. 14 juil. 2021 ? 10:18, Kevin Kamonye a ?crit : > Worrying times indeed. > > Thank you for preparing and sharing the detailed documentation. > > AFRINIC?? > > Regards, > > Kevin > > ? > ? > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 12:09, Paschal Ochang wrote: > >> Dissolution of Appeal Committees while appeals are still on board without >> justification, non transparent reclamation of resources from members >> without proper justification using drastic measures, installation of new >> cochairs without conforming to laid down procedures. The list goes on and >> on. Worrying times. >> >> On Wednesday, July 14, 2021, tech wrote: >> >>> This letter is a follow-up to the unfortunate incident arising from the >>> actions taken by AFRINIC (African Network Information Centre), including >>> terminating our (Cloud Innovation Ltd) membership and reclaiming our number >>> resources which we consider to have been totally unnecessary, unreasonable, >>> and unjust. The action has not caused only serious damage to Cloud >>> Innovation and hundreds of its clients' businesses, but also to hundreds of >>> millions of end-users who were potentially endangered at the same time. >>> >>> >>> >>> We are pleased to announce that urgent interim relief has been granted >>> to Cloud Innovation by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of the Supreme >>> Court of Mauritius( herewith attached) to prevent AFRINIC from reclaiming >>> our number resources in such illegal manner. As a result of which, Cloud >>> Innovation will now be in a position to resume business as normal until the >>> issues are resolved before the competent courts.. >>> >>> >>> >>> For the sake of clarity and transparency, we would share with you as set >>> out below the background which led to the current state of affairs: >>> >>> >>> >>> - AFRINIC issued a letter to Cloud Innovation on June 23, 2020, >>> accusing Cloud Innovation of policy violations. AFRINIC threatened to take >>> actions and demanded an immediate response within 14 days. Despite the >>> short notice, Cloud Innovation investigated AFRINIC's accusations >>> carefully. Cloud Innovation did not find any policy violations of its own >>> but only AFRINIC's own misinterpretation of its policy document and errors >>> in understanding the nature of BGP. Cloud Innovation duly issued a response >>> on 13 July 2020, within the deadline set by AFRINIC to explain the >>> misunderstanding of AFRINIC?s own documents and erroneous assertions >>> regarding routing. >>> >>> >>> >>> - After eight months, AFRINIC issued a letter on 10 March 2021 ( >>> being the first day Mauritius went into a second national lockdown due to >>> COVID-19) to Cloud Innovation, raising similar alleged breaches as >>> those alleged in June 2020 but with the following warning note:: >>> >>> >>> >>> *To address the aforementioned issues, Cloud Innovation Ltd is hereby >>> most formally required to promptly and accurately submit its ?change >>> request? in compliance with Clauses 4(a) and 2(d) of the RSA, as well as >>> ensure full compliance with AFRINIC. The ?change request? must* >>> >>> *include:* >>> >>> *I. Detailed utilisation information for all the aforementioned IPv4 >>> prefixes including the services for which the resources are being used and >>> country of service origin.* >>> >>> *II. Planned utilisation of your remaining IPv4 space for the next 8 >>> months* >>> >>> *III.Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, >>> by the close of business.* >>> >>> *AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in >>> its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to >>> proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud >>> Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held >>> liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present >>> notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. Your >>> ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close >>> of business.AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and >>> will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well >>> as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to >>> Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be >>> held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the >>> present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance * >>> thereof. >>> >>> >>> >>> The false accusations made by AFRINIC and our response/views >>> are attached in a separate document (named:Chronology) for the benefit of >>> all the community.. >>> >>> >>> >>> - As the 3rd largest member of AFRINIC, Cloud Innovation serves >>> hundreds of millions of end-users through hundreds of telecoms and ISPs >>> around the world. The services, such as hosting websites, counts for >>> over 1.5 million websites hosted by Cloud Innovation's IP alone. Thus, >>> there is no way, especially with the size of Cloud Innovation, to fully and >>> wholly satisfy AFRINIC's request within the timeframe it provided. With the >>> real threat of membership termination and hundreds of millions of users' >>> connectivity on the line, Cloud Innovation was left with no option but to >>> seek the mercy of the court in Mauritius during a period of lockdown with >>> limited resources. An interim order of injunction was therefore issued by >>> the Mauritius court on April 7,2021 to protect the interests of end-users >>> and to forbid AFRINIC from acting irrationally. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> - By virtue of a judgment issued on the evening of 7 July 2021, >>> the said injunction was lifted on the basis of a mere legal technicality >>> basis, which was partially caused by the inability to provide a power of >>> attorney to our lawyers in Mauritius during the total lockdown of >>> Mauritius, a direct result of AFRINIC releasing such a letter to us on the >>> first day of the Mauritius lockdown. >>> >>> >>> >>> - In order to protect our interests and the hundreds of millions >>> of users of number resources registered to us, we took immediate action by >>> filing an appeal against the judgment on the very next day.. >>> >>> >>> >>> - In order to safeguard its interests, Cloud Innovation had to >>> again seek urgent relief before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. By >>> virtue of an interim order of injunction issued on 13 July 2021, AFRINIC >>> has been restrained and prohibited from terminating our membership and >>> reclaiming our number resources. The said proceedings are now pending >>> before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. >>> >>> >>> >>> - We welcome the urgent intervention of the Supreme Court of >>> Mauritius for interim relief in order to protect our rights as a member. . >>> We would like to inform those concerned that the operations of our number >>> resources will revert to normal at the earliest as AFRINIC is under an >>> obligation to comply with the Judge?s Order as attached. >>> >>> >>> >>> - We wish to emphasise that as an AFRINIC member in good >>> standing, we consistently abide by their policy and strive to contribute to >>> the community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take >>> any action against AFRINIC but are obligated to take the appropriate >>> measures to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds >>> of millions of end-users. >>> >>> >>> >>> - We reserve full and absolute legal rights and remedies in >>> respect to AFRINIC's actions against us. >>> >>> >>> >>> We would also like to clarify that as the NRO has stated in their >>> letter, "All RIRs, on occasion, face allegations of errors in >>> implementation of policy or agreements, and such disputes, being routine in >>> nature are best handled by the individual RIR and/or its community ", such >>> routine disagreement (mostly in all the other RIRs, or AFRINIC before this >>> management) is sorted by merely communicating between the tech team and the >>> registration services department of the respective RIR. It has never come >>> to such drastic actions before, like the RIR threatening and endangering >>> the very stability of the Internet. >>> >>> >>> >>> We trust the above has shed some light on the matter for all those >>> concerned. We are grateful for the continued belief and support we have >>> received from all of you. >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Kind regards, >> >> Paschal. >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dndannang at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 10:38:50 2021 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:38:50 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Marcus, I strongly agree, that there are policy updates from the other RIRs, what is catching my interest at the moment is that Owen has been one of the very active participants on PDP and I believe AFRINIC has a high level of freedom of expression. When he gives a reason that he wants to have greater freedom and flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of interest with his role as an Advisory Council member. I begin to realise that Owen could have been having a high conflict of interest which conflicted with his position on the AC. Dear Owen, Owen, kindly advise how we could deal with the Conflict of Interest in the PDP as you state it clearly in your reason. Furthermore, I still have question marks as to why the AFRINIC PDP is of high interest to you - yet the Policies discussed are for the development of the Internet in Africa. Is something wrong with the AFRINIC PDP that stimulates high interest for your participation in AFRINIC Process that the Africa participants have failed to solve which requires your expertise? Is ARIN more superior than AFRINIC? Thanks Daniel ? On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:26, Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote: > Dear Owen and PDWG, > > I don?t think this is an off-topic. There are reasons why we always have > session on ?policy update from other RIRs? at every PPM?it?s like we care > for what happened at ARIN PDP through its AC and possible impact on our > PDP and related issues > > In response to the statement below, one would like to know why is Owen > talking about ? was not forced to resign?? Nobody said so AFAIK, how > come the position at ARIN constitute restraint to speech and why only now? > > And question for this community is how do we deal with conflict of > interest in our PDP? > > Thanks > > > > Marcus > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:03:19 PM > *To:* Arnaud AMELINA > *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC ; > AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? > > Apologies to the list for this off-topic posting, but given the > unwarranted attention already paid to the > matter and the escalating level of speculation, I beg your indulgence. > This will (hopefully) be the > only post I make on the matter here. > > For clarity: > > 1. I chose to resign my position on the ARIN AC. I was not forced to > resign. I did not have to resign. > So your speculation is neither accurate, nor appropriate and the > implications are offensive. > > 2. I chose to resign in order to have greater freedom and flexibility to > advocate for changes in the > internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of > interest with my role as > an Advisory Council member. While I have been outspoken by most standards, > the reality is > that my position on the AC did serve as a significant restraint to my > speech in many cases. > The time has come where I felt the need to remove that restraint in order > to best serve the > community. > > Reading anything other than the above into it would be a mistake and > further speculation is very > unlikely to produce any accurate conclusions. > > If anyone has questions about my resignation, they are free to ask me > directly, but this really is > not an appropriate topic for this list. > > Owen > > > On Jul 13, 2021, at 05:56 , Arnaud AMELINA wrote: > > @Taiwo > > We all would like to know why Owen, so active in our PDP, has to resign > from his position at ARIN AC which serves in an advisory capacity to the > Board of Trustees on Internet number resource policy and related matters. > > -- > Arnaud > > Le lun. 12 juil. 2021 ? 12:37, Taiwo Oye a > ?crit : > > ?Benjilo. > How is this of concern to you or to any of the members of the afrinic > community. Kindly direct your question to the appropriate quarters - > owen at delong.com - > > > On Jul 11, 2021, at 19:27, Paschal Ochang wrote: > > ?Great question Daniel. > > On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > > Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? > > On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: > > Hello > > Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP > resigned from ARIN AC? > > https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 > > > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > -- > Kind regards, > > Paschal. > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > RPD mailing list > RPD at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dym5328 at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 10:40:29 2021 From: dym5328 at gmail.com (Mimi dy) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 11:40:29 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: Hello Daniel, Are you questioning the MU court's decision? Are we now going against the actual law? Do you think that the court did not request HARD PROPER EVIDENCE to sort this out? Some people's reasoning just boggles the mind. You do not really need to check the tickets to comprehend that numerous users' networks/connectivity were at stake, the provided detailed documents are more than enough in this case. Kindly refrain from picking holes in an inaccurate way, and give the shared documents a quick scan before posting unnecessarily. Best, Le mer. 14 juil. 2021 ? 11:24, DANIEL NANGHAKA a ?crit : > > I would like to appreciate the level of transparency that is being put > forward here by Cloud Innovation. > The fact that they Cloud Innovation is sharing information and also the > excel sheets as has been attached. > > You claim that million of users have been affected during the process. > > Could you kindly share the tickets of the affected users as you have > shared the respective information? > > I feel there could be some information that is not being shared here. > Where are the hundreds of millions of users of number resources registered > to Cloud Innovation located? > > Regards > Daniel > ? > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 12:18, Kevin Kamonye > wrote: > >> Worrying times indeed. >> >> Thank you for preparing and sharing the detailed documentation. >> >> AFRINIC?? >> >> Regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> ? >> ? >> >> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 12:09, Paschal Ochang wrote: >> >>> Dissolution of Appeal Committees while appeals are still on board >>> without justification, non transparent reclamation of resources from >>> members without proper justification using drastic measures, installation >>> of new cochairs without conforming to laid down procedures. The list goes >>> on and on. Worrying times. >>> >>> On Wednesday, July 14, 2021, tech wrote: >>> >>>> This letter is a follow-up to the unfortunate incident arising from the >>>> actions taken by AFRINIC (African Network Information Centre), including >>>> terminating our (Cloud Innovation Ltd) membership and reclaiming our number >>>> resources which we consider to have been totally unnecessary, unreasonable, >>>> and unjust. The action has not caused only serious damage to Cloud >>>> Innovation and hundreds of its clients' businesses, but also to hundreds of >>>> millions of end-users who were potentially endangered at the same time. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We are pleased to announce that urgent interim relief has been >>>> granted to Cloud Innovation by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of the >>>> Supreme Court of Mauritius( herewith attached) to prevent AFRINIC from >>>> reclaiming our number resources in such illegal manner. As a result >>>> of which, Cloud Innovation will now be in a position to resume >>>> business as normal until the issues are resolved before the competent >>>> courts.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For the sake of clarity and transparency, we would share with you as >>>> set out below the background which led to the current state of affairs: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - AFRINIC issued a letter to Cloud Innovation on June 23, 2020, >>>> accusing Cloud Innovation of policy violations. AFRINIC threatened to take >>>> actions and demanded an immediate response within 14 days. Despite the >>>> short notice, Cloud Innovation investigated AFRINIC's accusations >>>> carefully. Cloud Innovation did not find any policy violations of its own >>>> but only AFRINIC's own misinterpretation of its policy document and errors >>>> in understanding the nature of BGP. Cloud Innovation duly issued a response >>>> on 13 July 2020, within the deadline set by AFRINIC to explain the >>>> misunderstanding of AFRINIC?s own documents and erroneous assertions >>>> regarding routing. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - After eight months, AFRINIC issued a letter on 10 March 2021 ( >>>> being the first day Mauritius went into a second national lockdown due to >>>> COVID-19) to Cloud Innovation, raising similar alleged breaches as >>>> those alleged in June 2020 but with the following warning note:: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *To address the aforementioned issues, Cloud Innovation Ltd is hereby >>>> most formally required to promptly and accurately submit its ?change >>>> request? in compliance with Clauses 4(a) and 2(d) of the RSA, as well as >>>> ensure full compliance with AFRINIC. The ?change request? must* >>>> >>>> *include:* >>>> >>>> *I. Detailed utilisation information for all the aforementioned IPv4 >>>> prefixes including the services for which the resources are being used and >>>> country of service origin.* >>>> >>>> *II. Planned utilisation of your remaining IPv4 space for the next 8 >>>> months* >>>> >>>> *III.Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, >>>> by the close of business.* >>>> >>>> *AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in >>>> its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to >>>> proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud >>>> Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held >>>> liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present >>>> notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. Your >>>> ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close >>>> of business.AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and >>>> will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well >>>> as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to >>>> Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be >>>> held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the >>>> present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance * >>>> thereof. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The false accusations made by AFRINIC and our response/views >>>> are attached in a separate document (named:Chronology) for the benefit of >>>> all the community.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - As the 3rd largest member of AFRINIC, Cloud Innovation serves >>>> hundreds of millions of end-users through hundreds of telecoms and ISPs >>>> around the world. The services, such as hosting websites, counts for >>>> over 1.5 million websites hosted by Cloud Innovation's IP alone. Thus, >>>> there is no way, especially with the size of Cloud Innovation, to fully and >>>> wholly satisfy AFRINIC's request within the timeframe it provided. With the >>>> real threat of membership termination and hundreds of millions of users' >>>> connectivity on the line, Cloud Innovation was left with no option but to >>>> seek the mercy of the court in Mauritius during a period of lockdown with >>>> limited resources. An interim order of injunction was therefore issued by >>>> the Mauritius court on April 7,2021 to protect the interests of end-users >>>> and to forbid AFRINIC from acting irrationally. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - By virtue of a judgment issued on the evening of 7 July 2021, >>>> the said injunction was lifted on the basis of a mere legal technicality >>>> basis, which was partially caused by the inability to provide a power of >>>> attorney to our lawyers in Mauritius during the total lockdown of >>>> Mauritius, a direct result of AFRINIC releasing such a letter to us on the >>>> first day of the Mauritius lockdown. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - In order to protect our interests and the hundreds of millions >>>> of users of number resources registered to us, we took immediate action by >>>> filing an appeal against the judgment on the very next day.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - In order to safeguard its interests, Cloud Innovation had to >>>> again seek urgent relief before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. By >>>> virtue of an interim order of injunction issued on 13 July 2021, AFRINIC >>>> has been restrained and prohibited from terminating our membership and >>>> reclaiming our number resources. The said proceedings are now >>>> pending before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - We welcome the urgent intervention of the Supreme Court of >>>> Mauritius for interim relief in order to protect our rights as a member. . >>>> We would like to inform those concerned that the operations of our number >>>> resources will revert to normal at the earliest as AFRINIC is under an >>>> obligation to comply with the Judge?s Order as attached. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - We wish to emphasise that as an AFRINIC member in good >>>> standing, we consistently abide by their policy and strive to contribute to >>>> the community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take >>>> any action against AFRINIC but are obligated to take the appropriate >>>> measures to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds >>>> of millions of end-users. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - We reserve full and absolute legal rights and remedies in >>>> respect to AFRINIC's actions against us. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We would also like to clarify that as the NRO has stated in their >>>> letter, "All RIRs, on occasion, face allegations of errors in >>>> implementation of policy or agreements, and such disputes, being routine in >>>> nature are best handled by the individual RIR and/or its community ", such >>>> routine disagreement (mostly in all the other RIRs, or AFRINIC before this >>>> management) is sorted by merely communicating between the tech team and the >>>> registration services department of the respective RIR. It has never come >>>> to such drastic actions before, like the RIR threatening and endangering >>>> the very stability of the Internet. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We trust the above has shed some light on the matter for all those >>>> concerned. We are grateful for the continued belief and support we have >>>> received from all of you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Paschal. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dndannang at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 10:46:43 2021 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:46:43 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: Hi Mimi, You make a good point. I would gladly appreciate if CI can produce the tickets of the affected users or the massive end-users whom you claim. AFRINIC does not abuse but follows the process through consensus. Secondly, these end-users who are affected can lodge complaints directly to their respective RIR (Which is AFRINIC) in this case. Then the viability of the address allocation will then be delt with respectively by the AFRINIC Technical team. There is nothing shocking here as the trust for AFRINIC continues to be strong based on the reasons for its formation. These include Internet Development and resource allocation for the Africa region. So the affected customers can then be served directly by AFRINIC. Daniel ? On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:32, Mimi dy wrote: > Hello all, > > Based on the undoubtful evidence provided by CI, it became clear that > AFRINIC's power abuse is off the charts. I have never thought that an RIR > could ever jeopardize the internet infrastructure and threatens the normal > functioning of networks, putting a massive number of end-users in a > critical situation. I thought that the very vocation of an RIR is to ensure > smooth internet connectivity and develop that particular ecosystem, > however, all I see now is a total abandonment of the RIRs core values and a > complete disregard to various internet stakeholders. > > I must say, that is quite shocking. It literally shakes the trust between > the community and AFRINIC. In fact, the whole community now awaits > AFRINIC's explanation, which hopefully, will be backed by adequate evidence. > > Best, > > Le mer. 14 juil. 2021 ? 10:18, Kevin Kamonye a > ?crit : > >> Worrying times indeed. >> >> Thank you for preparing and sharing the detailed documentation. >> >> AFRINIC?? >> >> Regards, >> >> Kevin >> >> ? >> ? >> >> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 12:09, Paschal Ochang wrote: >> >>> Dissolution of Appeal Committees while appeals are still on board >>> without justification, non transparent reclamation of resources from >>> members without proper justification using drastic measures, installation >>> of new cochairs without conforming to laid down procedures. The list goes >>> on and on. Worrying times. >>> >>> On Wednesday, July 14, 2021, tech wrote: >>> >>>> This letter is a follow-up to the unfortunate incident arising from the >>>> actions taken by AFRINIC (African Network Information Centre), including >>>> terminating our (Cloud Innovation Ltd) membership and reclaiming our number >>>> resources which we consider to have been totally unnecessary, unreasonable, >>>> and unjust. The action has not caused only serious damage to Cloud >>>> Innovation and hundreds of its clients' businesses, but also to hundreds of >>>> millions of end-users who were potentially endangered at the same time. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We are pleased to announce that urgent interim relief has been >>>> granted to Cloud Innovation by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of the >>>> Supreme Court of Mauritius( herewith attached) to prevent AFRINIC from >>>> reclaiming our number resources in such illegal manner. As a result >>>> of which, Cloud Innovation will now be in a position to resume >>>> business as normal until the issues are resolved before the competent >>>> courts.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For the sake of clarity and transparency, we would share with you as >>>> set out below the background which led to the current state of affairs: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - AFRINIC issued a letter to Cloud Innovation on June 23, 2020, >>>> accusing Cloud Innovation of policy violations. AFRINIC threatened to take >>>> actions and demanded an immediate response within 14 days. Despite the >>>> short notice, Cloud Innovation investigated AFRINIC's accusations >>>> carefully. Cloud Innovation did not find any policy violations of its own >>>> but only AFRINIC's own misinterpretation of its policy document and errors >>>> in understanding the nature of BGP. Cloud Innovation duly issued a response >>>> on 13 July 2020, within the deadline set by AFRINIC to explain the >>>> misunderstanding of AFRINIC?s own documents and erroneous assertions >>>> regarding routing. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - After eight months, AFRINIC issued a letter on 10 March 2021 ( >>>> being the first day Mauritius went into a second national lockdown due to >>>> COVID-19) to Cloud Innovation, raising similar alleged breaches as >>>> those alleged in June 2020 but with the following warning note:: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *To address the aforementioned issues, Cloud Innovation Ltd is hereby >>>> most formally required to promptly and accurately submit its ?change >>>> request? in compliance with Clauses 4(a) and 2(d) of the RSA, as well as >>>> ensure full compliance with AFRINIC. The ?change request? must* >>>> >>>> *include:* >>>> >>>> *I. Detailed utilisation information for all the aforementioned IPv4 >>>> prefixes including the services for which the resources are being used and >>>> country of service origin.* >>>> >>>> *II. Planned utilisation of your remaining IPv4 space for the next 8 >>>> months* >>>> >>>> *III.Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, >>>> by the close of business.* >>>> >>>> *AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in >>>> its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to >>>> proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud >>>> Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held >>>> liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present >>>> notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. Your >>>> ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close >>>> of business.AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and >>>> will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well >>>> as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to >>>> Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be >>>> held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the >>>> present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance * >>>> thereof. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The false accusations made by AFRINIC and our response/views >>>> are attached in a separate document (named:Chronology) for the benefit of >>>> all the community.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - As the 3rd largest member of AFRINIC, Cloud Innovation serves >>>> hundreds of millions of end-users through hundreds of telecoms and ISPs >>>> around the world. The services, such as hosting websites, counts for >>>> over 1.5 million websites hosted by Cloud Innovation's IP alone. Thus, >>>> there is no way, especially with the size of Cloud Innovation, to fully and >>>> wholly satisfy AFRINIC's request within the timeframe it provided. With the >>>> real threat of membership termination and hundreds of millions of users' >>>> connectivity on the line, Cloud Innovation was left with no option but to >>>> seek the mercy of the court in Mauritius during a period of lockdown with >>>> limited resources. An interim order of injunction was therefore issued by >>>> the Mauritius court on April 7,2021 to protect the interests of end-users >>>> and to forbid AFRINIC from acting irrationally. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - By virtue of a judgment issued on the evening of 7 July 2021, >>>> the said injunction was lifted on the basis of a mere legal technicality >>>> basis, which was partially caused by the inability to provide a power of >>>> attorney to our lawyers in Mauritius during the total lockdown of >>>> Mauritius, a direct result of AFRINIC releasing such a letter to us on the >>>> first day of the Mauritius lockdown. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - In order to protect our interests and the hundreds of millions >>>> of users of number resources registered to us, we took immediate action by >>>> filing an appeal against the judgment on the very next day.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - In order to safeguard its interests, Cloud Innovation had to >>>> again seek urgent relief before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. By >>>> virtue of an interim order of injunction issued on 13 July 2021, AFRINIC >>>> has been restrained and prohibited from terminating our membership and >>>> reclaiming our number resources. The said proceedings are now >>>> pending before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - We welcome the urgent intervention of the Supreme Court of >>>> Mauritius for interim relief in order to protect our rights as a member. . >>>> We would like to inform those concerned that the operations of our number >>>> resources will revert to normal at the earliest as AFRINIC is under an >>>> obligation to comply with the Judge?s Order as attached. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - We wish to emphasise that as an AFRINIC member in good >>>> standing, we consistently abide by their policy and strive to contribute to >>>> the community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take >>>> any action against AFRINIC but are obligated to take the appropriate >>>> measures to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds >>>> of millions of end-users. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - We reserve full and absolute legal rights and remedies in >>>> respect to AFRINIC's actions against us. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We would also like to clarify that as the NRO has stated in their >>>> letter, "All RIRs, on occasion, face allegations of errors in >>>> implementation of policy or agreements, and such disputes, being routine in >>>> nature are best handled by the individual RIR and/or its community ", such >>>> routine disagreement (mostly in all the other RIRs, or AFRINIC before this >>>> management) is sorted by merely communicating between the tech team and the >>>> registration services department of the respective RIR. It has never come >>>> to such drastic actions before, like the RIR threatening and endangering >>>> the very stability of the Internet. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We trust the above has shed some light on the matter for all those >>>> concerned. We are grateful for the continued belief and support we have >>>> received from all of you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Paschal. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dndannang at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 10:51:09 2021 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:51:09 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: Hello Mimi, It's not questioning MU's court decision, AFRINIC has Policies and a process to handle complaints which include number resources. Tickets act as proof of damage of occurrence when a situation arises. There is information that is lacking, why dont you provide the required specific information, what is hindering CI from providing information that they feel is relevant in the process. I advise you to fill up the holes accurately such that the pot can be able to hold water. Thank you Daniel ? On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:40, Mimi dy wrote: > Hello Daniel, > > Are you questioning the MU court's decision? Are we now going against the > actual law? Do you think that the court did not request HARD PROPER > EVIDENCE to sort this out? Some people's reasoning just boggles the mind. > You do not really need to check the tickets to comprehend that numerous > users' networks/connectivity were at stake, the provided detailed documents > are more than enough in this case. > > Kindly refrain from picking holes in an inaccurate way, and give the > shared documents a quick scan before posting unnecessarily. > > Best, > > Le mer. 14 juil. 2021 ? 11:24, DANIEL NANGHAKA a > ?crit : > >> >> I would like to appreciate the level of transparency that is being put >> forward here by Cloud Innovation. >> The fact that they Cloud Innovation is sharing information and also the >> excel sheets as has been attached. >> >> You claim that million of users have been affected during the process. >> >> Could you kindly share the tickets of the affected users as you have >> shared the respective information? >> >> I feel there could be some information that is not being shared here. >> Where are the hundreds of millions of users of number resources registered >> to Cloud Innovation located? >> >> Regards >> Daniel >> ? >> >> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 12:18, Kevin Kamonye >> wrote: >> >>> Worrying times indeed. >>> >>> Thank you for preparing and sharing the detailed documentation. >>> >>> AFRINIC?? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> ? >>> ? >>> >>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 12:09, Paschal Ochang >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dissolution of Appeal Committees while appeals are still on board >>>> without justification, non transparent reclamation of resources from >>>> members without proper justification using drastic measures, installation >>>> of new cochairs without conforming to laid down procedures. The list goes >>>> on and on. Worrying times. >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, July 14, 2021, tech wrote: >>>> >>>>> This letter is a follow-up to the unfortunate incident arising from >>>>> the actions taken by AFRINIC (African Network Information Centre), >>>>> including terminating our (Cloud Innovation Ltd) membership and reclaiming >>>>> our number resources which we consider to have been totally unnecessary, >>>>> unreasonable, and unjust. The action has not caused only serious damage to >>>>> Cloud Innovation and hundreds of its clients' businesses, but also to >>>>> hundreds of millions of end-users who were potentially endangered at the >>>>> same time. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We are pleased to announce that urgent interim relief has been >>>>> granted to Cloud Innovation by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of the >>>>> Supreme Court of Mauritius( herewith attached) to prevent AFRINIC from >>>>> reclaiming our number resources in such illegal manner. As a result >>>>> of which, Cloud Innovation will now be in a position to resume >>>>> business as normal until the issues are resolved before the competent >>>>> courts.. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For the sake of clarity and transparency, we would share with you as >>>>> set out below the background which led to the current state of affairs: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - AFRINIC issued a letter to Cloud Innovation on June 23, 2020, >>>>> accusing Cloud Innovation of policy violations. AFRINIC threatened to take >>>>> actions and demanded an immediate response within 14 days. Despite the >>>>> short notice, Cloud Innovation investigated AFRINIC's accusations >>>>> carefully. Cloud Innovation did not find any policy violations of its own >>>>> but only AFRINIC's own misinterpretation of its policy document and errors >>>>> in understanding the nature of BGP. Cloud Innovation duly issued a response >>>>> on 13 July 2020, within the deadline set by AFRINIC to explain the >>>>> misunderstanding of AFRINIC?s own documents and erroneous assertions >>>>> regarding routing. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - After eight months, AFRINIC issued a letter on 10 March 2021 ( >>>>> being the first day Mauritius went into a second national lockdown due to >>>>> COVID-19) to Cloud Innovation, raising similar alleged breaches as >>>>> those alleged in June 2020 but with the following warning note:: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *To address the aforementioned issues, Cloud Innovation Ltd is hereby >>>>> most formally required to promptly and accurately submit its ?change >>>>> request? in compliance with Clauses 4(a) and 2(d) of the RSA, as well as >>>>> ensure full compliance with AFRINIC. The ?change request? must* >>>>> >>>>> *include:* >>>>> >>>>> *I. Detailed utilisation information for all the aforementioned IPv4 >>>>> prefixes including the services for which the resources are being used and >>>>> country of service origin.* >>>>> >>>>> *II. Planned utilisation of your remaining IPv4 space for the next 8 >>>>> months* >>>>> >>>>> *III.Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by >>>>> 12-04-2021, by the close of business.* >>>>> >>>>> *AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will >>>>> in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to >>>>> proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud >>>>> Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held >>>>> liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present >>>>> notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. Your >>>>> ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close >>>>> of business.AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and >>>>> will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well >>>>> as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to >>>>> Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be >>>>> held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the >>>>> present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance * >>>>> thereof. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The false accusations made by AFRINIC and our response/views >>>>> are attached in a separate document (named:Chronology) for the benefit of >>>>> all the community.. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - As the 3rd largest member of AFRINIC, Cloud Innovation serves >>>>> hundreds of millions of end-users through hundreds of telecoms and ISPs >>>>> around the world. The services, such as hosting websites, counts for >>>>> over 1.5 million websites hosted by Cloud Innovation's IP alone. Thus, >>>>> there is no way, especially with the size of Cloud Innovation, to fully and >>>>> wholly satisfy AFRINIC's request within the timeframe it provided. With the >>>>> real threat of membership termination and hundreds of millions of users' >>>>> connectivity on the line, Cloud Innovation was left with no option but to >>>>> seek the mercy of the court in Mauritius during a period of lockdown with >>>>> limited resources. An interim order of injunction was therefore issued by >>>>> the Mauritius court on April 7,2021 to protect the interests of end-users >>>>> and to forbid AFRINIC from acting irrationally. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - By virtue of a judgment issued on the evening of 7 July >>>>> 2021, the said injunction was lifted on the basis of a mere legal >>>>> technicality basis, which was partially caused by the inability to provide >>>>> a power of attorney to our lawyers in Mauritius during the total lockdown >>>>> of Mauritius, a direct result of AFRINIC releasing such a letter to us on >>>>> the first day of the Mauritius lockdown. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - In order to protect our interests and the hundreds of >>>>> millions of users of number resources registered to us, we took immediate >>>>> action by filing an appeal against the judgment on the very next day.. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - In order to safeguard its interests, Cloud Innovation had to >>>>> again seek urgent relief before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. By >>>>> virtue of an interim order of injunction issued on 13 July 2021, AFRINIC >>>>> has been restrained and prohibited from terminating our membership and >>>>> reclaiming our number resources. The said proceedings are now >>>>> pending before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - We welcome the urgent intervention of the Supreme Court of >>>>> Mauritius for interim relief in order to protect our rights as a member. . >>>>> We would like to inform those concerned that the operations of our number >>>>> resources will revert to normal at the earliest as AFRINIC is under an >>>>> obligation to comply with the Judge?s Order as attached. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - We wish to emphasise that as an AFRINIC member in good >>>>> standing, we consistently abide by their policy and strive to contribute to >>>>> the community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take >>>>> any action against AFRINIC but are obligated to take the appropriate >>>>> measures to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds >>>>> of millions of end-users. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - We reserve full and absolute legal rights and remedies in >>>>> respect to AFRINIC's actions against us. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We would also like to clarify that as the NRO has stated in their >>>>> letter, "All RIRs, on occasion, face allegations of errors in >>>>> implementation of policy or agreements, and such disputes, being routine in >>>>> nature are best handled by the individual RIR and/or its community ", such >>>>> routine disagreement (mostly in all the other RIRs, or AFRINIC before this >>>>> management) is sorted by merely communicating between the tech team and the >>>>> registration services department of the respective RIR. It has never come >>>>> to such drastic actions before, like the RIR threatening and endangering >>>>> the very stability of the Internet. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We trust the above has shed some light on the matter for all those >>>>> concerned. We are grateful for the continued belief and support we have >>>>> received from all of you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Paschal. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Wed Jul 14 10:58:13 2021 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:58:13 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Use of space outside of application Message-ID: I have one question - and I'm going to keep this brief. If AfriNIC wants to reclaim space based on it not being used as originally applied for - 1. Are AfriNIC going to go after every member who applied for space for use on dial up systems more than a decade ago - and repurposed that space when dialup died. 2. How are AfriNIC going to equitably enforce this - when they lost most of the documentation around applications pre 2009 - due to a data corruption issue - such that they can no longer actually show how space was applied for 3. Is this a case of selective enforcement based on - we don't like this guy? As for out of region space - I point out - that Dubai -is RIPE service region - not Afrinic's - will be curious to see if AfriNIC is going to be selective in that regard - considering allocation levels. Look - here is my take on this - someone applied for space - they were granted it - as per policy - policy this community chose not to change - and now - while I have my own views on Lu and others - I my personal opinion is that this is selective targeting and nothing more than that - it is dangerous in the extreme because it makes AfriNIC god judge and jury over virtually every player on the continent - it gives them the ability to shut down companies at will in effect through the same vague arguments where they are not equitably applying the rules - and if AfriNIC wishes to play this card - let them play it equally and fairly against every single member - and see what is left of the African internet ecosystem once they do. Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dndannang at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 11:08:49 2021 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 14:08:49 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Owen for the email, I do not appreciate private emails as the matter was published and is being publicly discussed. This is a practice of bad actors in the community. Daniel On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:56, Owen DeLong wrote: > Daniel, > > Responding in private since this is off-topic for the list. > > This really has nothing to do with the AFRNIC PDP and has to do with > things I want to be able to say and advocate for in the ARIN region. > > There is no conflict between my activities in AFRINIC PDP and my role on > the ARIN AC. > > As to my interest in the AFRINIC PDP, you should note that I?m also at > various times active in APNIC, LACNIC, RIPE, and ARIN PDPs. > > I make my living as a consultant and I have at various times had clients > all over the world and some clients with global networks. As a result, I am > often asked to pay attention to the PDP in those regions. > > I am also someone with a strong sense of community service. As such, since > I am obliged to monitor the process for my client(s) anyway, I will often > work towards what I perceive as the best interests of the community > (regardless of whether it is best for my client or not) and I will often > advocate as such. In general, I select clients who are generally > ideologically aligned with me. > > One exception is Cloud Innovation. While I am not ideologically 100% in > agreement with them and do not necessarily favor the current state of > policy which benefits them, I am even more concerned that the RIRs cannot > simply make up policy or randomly interpret policy to suit their > ideological goals and must, instead, follow the policy as written until it > is amended through the proper community process. > > AFRINIC has a long history of corruption, election irregularities, > financial misdeeds, and failure to properly follow its own rules in both > its governance process and in its management of the IP registry database. > As such, I have maintained a high level of interest in AFRINIC?s doings in > an effort to do what I can to help resolve those issues. > > Owen > > On Jul 14, 2021, at 03:38 , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > > Dear Marcus, > > I strongly agree, that there are policy updates from the other RIRs, what > is catching my interest at the moment is that Owen has been one of the very > active participants on PDP and I believe AFRINIC has a high level of > freedom of expression. > When he gives a reason that he wants to have greater freedom and > flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of > which would be considered a conflict of interest with his role as an > Advisory Council member. I begin to realise that Owen could have been > having a high conflict of interest which conflicted with his position on > the AC. > > Dear Owen, > Owen, kindly advise how we could deal with the Conflict of Interest in the > PDP as you state it clearly in your reason. Furthermore, I still have > question marks as to why the AFRINIC PDP is of high interest to you - yet > the Policies discussed are for the development of the Internet in Africa. > Is something wrong with the AFRINIC PDP that stimulates high interest for > your participation in AFRINIC Process that the Africa participants have > failed to solve which requires your expertise? > > Is ARIN more superior than AFRINIC? > > Thanks > Daniel > > > ? > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:26, Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: > >> Dear Owen and PDWG, >> >> I don?t think this is an off-topic. There are reasons why we always have >> session on ?policy update from other RIRs? at every PPM?it?s like we care >> for what happened at ARIN PDP through its AC and possible impact on our >> PDP and related issues >> >> In response to the statement below, one would like to know why is Owen >> talking about ? was not forced to resign?? Nobody said so AFAIK, how >> come the position at ARIN constitute restraint to speech and why only now? >> >> And question for this community is how do we deal with conflict of >> interest in our PDP? >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Marcus >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss >> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:03:19 PM >> *To:* Arnaud AMELINA >> *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC ; >> AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List >> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? >> >> Apologies to the list for this off-topic posting, but given the >> unwarranted attention already paid to the >> matter and the escalating level of speculation, I beg your indulgence. >> This will (hopefully) be the >> only post I make on the matter here. >> >> For clarity: >> >> 1. I chose to resign my position on the ARIN AC. I was not forced to >> resign. I did not have to resign. >> So your speculation is neither accurate, nor appropriate and the >> implications are offensive. >> >> 2. I chose to resign in order to have greater freedom and flexibility to >> advocate for changes in the >> internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of >> interest with my role as >> an Advisory Council member. While I have been outspoken by most >> standards, the reality is >> that my position on the AC did serve as a significant restraint to my >> speech in many cases. >> The time has come where I felt the need to remove that restraint in order >> to best serve the >> community. >> >> Reading anything other than the above into it would be a mistake and >> further speculation is very >> unlikely to produce any accurate conclusions. >> >> If anyone has questions about my resignation, they are free to ask me >> directly, but this really is >> not an appropriate topic for this list. >> >> Owen >> >> >> On Jul 13, 2021, at 05:56 , Arnaud AMELINA wrote: >> >> @Taiwo >> >> We all would like to know why Owen, so active in our PDP, has to resign >> from his position at ARIN AC which serves in an advisory capacity to the >> Board of Trustees on Internet number resource policy and related matters. >> >> -- >> Arnaud >> >> Le lun. 12 juil. 2021 ? 12:37, Taiwo Oye a >> ?crit : >> >> ?Benjilo. >> How is this of concern to you or to any of the members of the afrinic >> community. Kindly direct your question to the appropriate quarters - >> owen at delong.com - >> >> >> On Jul 11, 2021, at 19:27, Paschal Ochang wrote: >> >> ?Great question Daniel. >> >> On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: >> >> Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? >> >> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey >> wrote: >> >> Hello >> >> Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP >> resigned from ARIN AC? >> >> https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 >> >> >> >> Marcus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> >> -- >> Kind regards, >> >> Paschal. >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> RPD mailing list >> RPD at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > > ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goubi.wijdane at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 11:10:51 2021 From: goubi.wijdane at gmail.com (Wijdane Goubi) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:10:51 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: I completely endorse this. Recently, AFRINIC has been operating in a suspicious manner, leading us to wonder what is driving these acts. Furthermore, AFRINIC appears to be unconcerned about the potential ramifications of such decisions for millions of users, which is highly troubling. Who will address this issue if we as a community do not address it and speak out loudly about it? Furthermore, we have not been given any information about the meeting or the decision-making process, which is our absolute and complete entitlement. It's a membership termination issue for a company with a large number of employees who will lose their jobs instantly, as well as millions of end users who will lose access to the internet as a result of this "decision". I highly urge AFRINIC to respond to all of these concerns in a timely manner because they are genuine and affect not only the community but also the end users. Regards, Wijdane Le mer. 14 juil. 2021 ? 03:43, tech a ?crit : > This letter is a follow-up to the unfortunate incident arising from the > actions taken by AFRINIC (African Network Information Centre), including > terminating our (Cloud Innovation Ltd) membership and reclaiming our number > resources which we consider to have been totally unnecessary, unreasonable, > and unjust. The action has not caused only serious damage to Cloud > Innovation and hundreds of its clients' businesses, but also to hundreds of > millions of end-users who were potentially endangered at the same time. > > > > We are pleased to announce that urgent interim relief has been granted > to Cloud Innovation by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of the Supreme > Court of Mauritius( herewith attached) to prevent AFRINIC from reclaiming > our number resources in such illegal manner. As a result of which, Cloud > Innovation will now be in a position to resume business as normal until the > issues are resolved before the competent courts.. > > > > For the sake of clarity and transparency, we would share with you as set > out below the background which led to the current state of affairs: > > > > - AFRINIC issued a letter to Cloud Innovation on June 23, 2020, > accusing Cloud Innovation of policy violations. AFRINIC threatened to take > actions and demanded an immediate response within 14 days. Despite the > short notice, Cloud Innovation investigated AFRINIC's accusations > carefully. Cloud Innovation did not find any policy violations of its own > but only AFRINIC's own misinterpretation of its policy document and errors > in understanding the nature of BGP. Cloud Innovation duly issued a response > on 13 July 2020, within the deadline set by AFRINIC to explain the > misunderstanding of AFRINIC?s own documents and erroneous assertions > regarding routing. > > > > - After eight months, AFRINIC issued a letter on 10 March 2021 ( > being the first day Mauritius went into a second national lockdown due to > COVID-19) to Cloud Innovation, raising similar alleged breaches as those > alleged in June 2020 but with the following warning note:: > > > > *To address the aforementioned issues, Cloud Innovation Ltd is hereby most > formally required to promptly and accurately submit its ?change request? in > compliance with Clauses 4(a) and 2(d) of the RSA, as well as ensure full > compliance with AFRINIC. The ?change request? must* > > *include:* > > *I. Detailed utilisation information for all the aforementioned IPv4 > prefixes including the services for which the resources are being used and > country of service origin.* > > *II. Planned utilisation of your remaining IPv4 space for the next 8 > months* > > *III.Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by > the close of business.* > > *AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in > its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to > proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud > Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held > liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present > notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. Your > ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close > of business.AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and > will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well > as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to > Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be > held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the > present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance *thereof. > > > > The false accusations made by AFRINIC and our response/views are > attached in a separate document (named:Chronology) for the benefit of all > the community.. > > > > - As the 3rd largest member of AFRINIC, Cloud Innovation serves > hundreds of millions of end-users through hundreds of telecoms and ISPs > around the world. The services, such as hosting websites, counts for > over 1.5 million websites hosted by Cloud Innovation's IP alone. Thus, > there is no way, especially with the size of Cloud Innovation, to fully and > wholly satisfy AFRINIC's request within the timeframe it provided. With the > real threat of membership termination and hundreds of millions of users' > connectivity on the line, Cloud Innovation was left with no option but to > seek the mercy of the court in Mauritius during a period of lockdown with > limited resources. An interim order of injunction was therefore issued by > the Mauritius court on April 7,2021 to protect the interests of end-users > and to forbid AFRINIC from acting irrationally. > > > > > > - By virtue of a judgment issued on the evening of 7 July 2021, > the said injunction was lifted on the basis of a mere legal technicality > basis, which was partially caused by the inability to provide a power of > attorney to our lawyers in Mauritius during the total lockdown of > Mauritius, a direct result of AFRINIC releasing such a letter to us on the > first day of the Mauritius lockdown. > > > > - In order to protect our interests and the hundreds of millions of > users of number resources registered to us, we took immediate action by > filing an appeal against the judgment on the very next day.. > > > > - In order to safeguard its interests, Cloud Innovation had to > again seek urgent relief before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. By > virtue of an interim order of injunction issued on 13 July 2021, AFRINIC > has been restrained and prohibited from terminating our membership and > reclaiming our number resources. The said proceedings are now pending > before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. > > > > - We welcome the urgent intervention of the Supreme Court of > Mauritius for interim relief in order to protect our rights as a member. . > We would like to inform those concerned that the operations of our number > resources will revert to normal at the earliest as AFRINIC is under an > obligation to comply with the Judge?s Order as attached. > > > > - We wish to emphasise that as an AFRINIC member in good standing, > we consistently abide by their policy and strive to contribute to the > community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take any > action against AFRINIC but are obligated to take the appropriate measures > to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds of > millions of end-users. > > > > - We reserve full and absolute legal rights and remedies in respect > to AFRINIC's actions against us. > > > > We would also like to clarify that as the NRO has stated in their letter, > "All RIRs, on occasion, face allegations of errors in implementation of > policy or agreements, and such disputes, being routine in nature are best > handled by the individual RIR and/or its community ", such routine > disagreement (mostly in all the other RIRs, or AFRINIC before this > management) is sorted by merely communicating between the tech team and the > registration services department of the respective RIR. It has never come > to such drastic actions before, like the RIR threatening and endangering > the very stability of the Internet. > > > > We trust the above has shed some light on the matter for all those > concerned. We are grateful for the continued belief and support we have > received from all of you. > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From silber.mike at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 11:14:50 2021 From: silber.mike at gmail.com (Mike Silber) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:14:50 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: <33ECEF4F-A64B-48AC-BC28-19A2AB3D0CA9@gmail.com> > On 14 Jul 2021, at 13:10, Wijdane Goubi wrote: > > I completely endorse this. > > Recently, AFRINIC has been operating in a suspicious manner, leading us to wonder what is driving these acts. Furthermore, AFRINIC appears to be unconcerned about the potential ramifications of such decisions for millions of users, which is highly troubling. Who will address this issue if we as a community do not address it and speak out loudly about it? > > Furthermore, we have not been given any information about the meeting or the decision-making process, which is our absolute and complete entitlement. It's a membership termination issue for a company with a large number of employees who will lose their jobs instantly, as well as millions of end users who will lose access to the internet as a result of this "decision". > > I highly urge AFRINIC to respond to all of these concerns in a timely manner because they are genuine and affect not only the community but also the end users. > > Regards, > Wijdane > > Le mer. 14 juil. 2021 ? 03:43, tech > a ?crit : > This letter is a follow-up to the unfortunate incident arising from the actions taken by AFRINIC (African Network Information Centre), including terminating our (Cloud Innovation Ltd) membership and reclaiming our number resources which we consider to have been totally unnecessary, unreasonable, and unjust. The action has not caused only serious damage to Cloud Innovation and hundreds of its clients' businesses, but also to hundreds of millions of end-users who were potentially endangered at the same time. > > We are pleased to announce that urgent interim relief has been granted to Cloud Innovation by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of the Supreme Court of Mauritius( herewith attached) to prevent AFRINIC from reclaiming our number resources in such illegal manner. As a result of which, Cloud Innovation will now be in a position to resume business as normal until the issues are resolved before the competent courts.. > > For the sake of clarity and transparency, we would share with you as set out below the background which led to the current state of affairs: > > - AFRINIC issued a letter to Cloud Innovation on June 23, 2020, accusing Cloud Innovation of policy violations. AFRINIC threatened to take actions and demanded an immediate response within 14 days. Despite the short notice, Cloud Innovation investigated AFRINIC's accusations carefully. Cloud Innovation did not find any policy violations of its own but only AFRINIC's own misinterpretation of its policy document and errors in understanding the nature of BGP. Cloud Innovation duly issued a response on 13 July 2020, within the deadline set by AFRINIC to explain the misunderstanding of AFRINIC?s own documents and erroneous assertions regarding routing. > > - After eight months, AFRINIC issued a letter on 10 March 2021 ( being the first day Mauritius went into a second national lockdown due to COVID-19) to Cloud Innovation, raising similar alleged breaches as those alleged in June 2020 but with the following warning note:: > > To address the aforementioned issues, Cloud Innovation Ltd is hereby most formally required to promptly and accurately submit its ?change request? in compliance with Clauses 4(a) and 2(d) of the RSA, as well as ensure full compliance with AFRINIC. The ?change request? must > include: > I. Detailed utilisation information for all the aforementioned IPv4 prefixes including the services for which the resources are being used and country of service origin. > II. Planned utilisation of your remaining IPv4 space for the next 8 months > III.Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close of business. > AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close of business.AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. > > The false accusations made by AFRINIC and our response/views are attached in a separate document (named:Chronology) for the benefit of all the community.. > > - As the 3rd largest member of AFRINIC, Cloud Innovation serves hundreds of millions of end-users through hundreds of telecoms and ISPs around the world. The services, such as hosting websites, counts for over 1.5 million websites hosted by Cloud Innovation's IP alone. Thus, there is no way, especially with the size of Cloud Innovation, to fully and wholly satisfy AFRINIC's request within the timeframe it provided. With the real threat of membership termination and hundreds of millions of users' connectivity on the line, Cloud Innovation was left with no option but to seek the mercy of the court in Mauritius during a period of lockdown with limited resources. An interim order of injunction was therefore issued by the Mauritius court on April 7,2021 to protect the interests of end-users and to forbid AFRINIC from acting irrationally. > > > - By virtue of a judgment issued on the evening of 7 July 2021, the said injunction was lifted on the basis of a mere legal technicality basis, which was partially caused by the inability to provide a power of attorney to our lawyers in Mauritius during the total lockdown of Mauritius, a direct result of AFRINIC releasing such a letter to us on the first day of the Mauritius lockdown. > > > - In order to protect our interests and the hundreds of millions of users of number resources registered to us, we took immediate action by filing an appeal against the judgment on the very next day.. > > > - In order to safeguard its interests, Cloud Innovation had to again seek urgent relief before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. By virtue of an interim order of injunction issued on 13 July 2021, AFRINIC has been restrained and prohibited from terminating our membership and reclaiming our number resources. The said proceedings are now pending before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. > > > - We welcome the urgent intervention of the Supreme Court of Mauritius for interim relief in order to protect our rights as a member. . We would like to inform those concerned that the operations of our number resources will revert to normal at the earliest as AFRINIC is under an obligation to comply with the Judge?s Order as attached. > > > - We wish to emphasise that as an AFRINIC member in good standing, we consistently abide by their policy and strive to contribute to the community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take any action against AFRINIC but are obligated to take the appropriate measures to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds of millions of end-users. > > > - We reserve full and absolute legal rights and remedies in respect to AFRINIC's actions against us. > > > We would also like to clarify that as the NRO has stated in their letter, "All RIRs, on occasion, face allegations of errors in implementation of policy or agreements, and such disputes, being routine in nature are best handled by the individual RIR and/or its community ", such routine disagreement (mostly in all the other RIRs, or AFRINIC before this management) is sorted by merely communicating between the tech team and the registration services department of the respective RIR. It has never come to such drastic actions before, like the RIR threatening and endangering the very stability of the Internet. > > We trust the above has shed some light on the matter for all those concerned. We are grateful for the continued belief and support we have received from all of you. > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: istockphoto-485866163-1024x1024.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 475203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From owen at delong.com Wed Jul 14 11:16:22 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 04:16:22 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A48BDC7-9312-4E6E-8944-2EAFFF8D599A@delong.com> Once again, I apologize to the list for this off-topic disruption, but I feel that I cannot leave this unanswered. No, discussing off topic matters on a public list is a practice of bad actors in the community. Taking a private message and making it public is a practice of bad actors in the community. Responding privately to an off-topic public email is the act of a. responsible member of the community. Sadly, criticizing someone?s bad acts publicly is also generally not preferable to doing so in private, but in this case, I believe you have created a need to go public with my retort, so now you have it. Owen > On Jul 14, 2021, at 04:08 , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > > Thank you Owen for the email, > > I do not appreciate private emails as the matter was published and is being publicly discussed. > > This is a practice of bad actors in the community. > > Daniel > > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:56, Owen DeLong > wrote: > Daniel, > > Responding in private since this is off-topic for the list. > > This really has nothing to do with the AFRNIC PDP and has to do with things I want to be able to say and advocate for in the ARIN region. > > There is no conflict between my activities in AFRINIC PDP and my role on the ARIN AC. > > As to my interest in the AFRINIC PDP, you should note that I?m also at various times active in APNIC, LACNIC, RIPE, and ARIN PDPs. > > I make my living as a consultant and I have at various times had clients all over the world and some clients with global networks. As a result, I am often asked to pay attention to the PDP in those regions. > > I am also someone with a strong sense of community service. As such, since I am obliged to monitor the process for my client(s) anyway, I will often work towards what I perceive as the best interests of the community (regardless of whether it is best for my client or not) and I will often advocate as such. In general, I select clients who are generally ideologically aligned with me. > > One exception is Cloud Innovation. While I am not ideologically 100% in agreement with them and do not necessarily favor the current state of policy which benefits them, I am even more concerned that the RIRs cannot simply make up policy or randomly interpret policy to suit their ideological goals and must, instead, follow the policy as written until it is amended through the proper community process. > > AFRINIC has a long history of corruption, election irregularities, financial misdeeds, and failure to properly follow its own rules in both its governance process and in its management of the IP registry database. As such, I have maintained a high level of interest in AFRINIC?s doings in an effort to do what I can to help resolve those issues. > > Owen > >> On Jul 14, 2021, at 03:38 , DANIEL NANGHAKA > wrote: >> >> Dear Marcus, >> >> I strongly agree, that there are policy updates from the other RIRs, what is catching my interest at the moment is that Owen has been one of the very active participants on PDP and I believe AFRINIC has a high level of freedom of expression. >> When he gives a reason that he wants to have greater freedom and flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of interest with his role as an Advisory Council member. I begin to realise that Owen could have been having a high conflict of interest which conflicted with his position on the AC. >> >> Dear Owen, >> Owen, kindly advise how we could deal with the Conflict of Interest in the PDP as you state it clearly in your reason. Furthermore, I still have question marks as to why the AFRINIC PDP is of high interest to you - yet the Policies discussed are for the development of the Internet in Africa. Is something wrong with the AFRINIC PDP that stimulates high interest for your participation in AFRINIC Process that the Africa participants have failed to solve which requires your expertise? >> >> Is ARIN more superior than AFRINIC? >> >> Thanks >> Daniel >> >> >> ? >> >> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:26, Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: >> Dear Owen and PDWG, >> >> I don?t think this is an off-topic. There are reasons why we always have session on ?policy update from other RIRs? at every PPM?it?s like we care for what happened at ARIN PDP through its AC and possible impact on our PDP and related issues >> >> In response to the statement below, one would like to know why is Owen talking about ? was not forced to resign?? Nobody said so AFAIK, how come the position at ARIN constitute restraint to speech and why only now? >> >> And question for this community is how do we deal with conflict of interest in our PDP? >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Marcus >> >> >> From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:03:19 PM >> To: Arnaud AMELINA > >> Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC >; AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List > >> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? >> >> Apologies to the list for this off-topic posting, but given the unwarranted attention already paid to the >> matter and the escalating level of speculation, I beg your indulgence. This will (hopefully) be the >> only post I make on the matter here. >> >> For clarity: >> >> 1. I chose to resign my position on the ARIN AC. I was not forced to resign. I did not have to resign. >> So your speculation is neither accurate, nor appropriate and the implications are offensive. >> >> 2. I chose to resign in order to have greater freedom and flexibility to advocate for changes in the >> internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of interest with my role as >> an Advisory Council member. While I have been outspoken by most standards, the reality is >> that my position on the AC did serve as a significant restraint to my speech in many cases. >> The time has come where I felt the need to remove that restraint in order to best serve the >> community. >> >> Reading anything other than the above into it would be a mistake and further speculation is very >> unlikely to produce any accurate conclusions. >> >> If anyone has questions about my resignation, they are free to ask me directly, but this really is >> not an appropriate topic for this list. >> >> Owen >> >> >>> On Jul 13, 2021, at 05:56 , Arnaud AMELINA > wrote: >>> >>> @Taiwo >>> >>> We all would like to know why Owen, so active in our PDP, has to resign from his position at ARIN AC which serves in an advisory capacity to the Board of Trustees on Internet number resource policy and related matters. >>> >>> -- >>> Arnaud >>> >>> Le lun. 12 juil. 2021 ? 12:37, Taiwo Oye > a ?crit : >>> ?Benjilo. >>> How is this of concern to you or to any of the members of the afrinic community. Kindly direct your question to the appropriate quarters - owen at delong.com - >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 11, 2021, at 19:27, Paschal Ochang > wrote: >>>> >>>> ?Great question Daniel. >>>> >>>> On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA > wrote: >>>> Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: >>>> Hello >>>> >>>> Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP resigned from ARIN AC? >>>> >>>> https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Marcus >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kind regards, >>>> Paschal. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> _______________________________________________ >>> RPD mailing list >>> RPD at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pascosoft at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 11:16:40 2021 From: pascosoft at gmail.com (Paschal Ochang) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 12:16:40 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Use of space outside of application In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: +1 very apt to the core On Wednesday, July 14, 2021, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > I have one question ? and I?m going to keep this brief. > > > > If AfriNIC wants to reclaim space based on it not being used as originally > applied for ? > > > > 1. Are AfriNIC going to go after every member who applied for space > for use on dial up systems more than a decade ago ? and repurposed that > space when dialup died. > 2. How are AfriNIC going to equitably enforce this ? when they lost > most of the documentation around applications pre 2009 ? due to a data > corruption issue ? such that they can no longer actually show how space was > applied for > 3. Is this a case of selective enforcement based on ? we don?t like > this guy? > > > > As for out of region space ? I point out ? that Dubai -is RIPE service > region ? not Afrinic?s ? will be curious to see if AfriNIC is going to be > selective in that regard ? considering allocation levels. > > > > Look ? here is my take on this ? someone applied for space ? they were > granted it ? as per policy ? policy this community chose not to change ? > and now ? while I have my own views on Lu and others ? I my personal > opinion is that this is selective targeting and nothing more than that ? it > is dangerous in the extreme because it makes AfriNIC god judge and jury > over virtually every player on the continent ? it gives them the ability to > shut down companies at will in effect through the same vague arguments > where they are not equitably applying the rules ? and if AfriNIC wishes to > play this card ? let them play it equally and fairly against every single > member ? and see what is left of the African internet ecosystem once they > do. > > > > Andrew > > > -- Kind regards, Paschal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dym5328 at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 11:18:13 2021 From: dym5328 at gmail.com (Mimi dy) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 12:18:13 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: If you examine the matter from the very beginning, you will realize that, fortunately, CI acted immediately after the issuing of the imminent resource reclamation notice, minimizing the damage that could have been done. Additionally, your request falls within CI's internal private matter of their own client database. It follows that it is extremely unlikely to lie to the court and we, as a community, should adhere to and respect the court's decision. I would like to remind you that, currently, the only much-needed statement is AFRINIC's, not CI's, as it has already been done on their part. I once again urge AFRINIC to respond and enlighten the community. Best, Le mer. 14 juil. 2021 ? 11:51, DANIEL NANGHAKA a ?crit : > Hello Mimi, > > It's not questioning MU's court decision, AFRINIC has Policies and a > process to handle complaints which include number resources. > Tickets act as proof of damage of occurrence when a situation arises. > There is information that is lacking, why dont you provide the required > specific information, what is hindering CI from providing information that > they feel is relevant in the process. > > I advise you to fill up the holes accurately such that the pot can be able > to hold water. > > Thank you > Daniel > ? > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:40, Mimi dy wrote: > >> Hello Daniel, >> >> Are you questioning the MU court's decision? Are we now going against the >> actual law? Do you think that the court did not request HARD PROPER >> EVIDENCE to sort this out? Some people's reasoning just boggles the mind. >> You do not really need to check the tickets to comprehend that numerous >> users' networks/connectivity were at stake, the provided detailed documents >> are more than enough in this case. >> >> Kindly refrain from picking holes in an inaccurate way, and give the >> shared documents a quick scan before posting unnecessarily. >> >> Best, >> >> Le mer. 14 juil. 2021 ? 11:24, DANIEL NANGHAKA a >> ?crit : >> >>> >>> I would like to appreciate the level of transparency that is being put >>> forward here by Cloud Innovation. >>> The fact that they Cloud Innovation is sharing information and also the >>> excel sheets as has been attached. >>> >>> You claim that million of users have been affected during the process. >>> >>> Could you kindly share the tickets of the affected users as you have >>> shared the respective information? >>> >>> I feel there could be some information that is not being shared here. >>> Where are the hundreds of millions of users of number resources registered >>> to Cloud Innovation located? >>> >>> Regards >>> Daniel >>> ? >>> >>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 12:18, Kevin Kamonye >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Worrying times indeed. >>>> >>>> Thank you for preparing and sharing the detailed documentation. >>>> >>>> AFRINIC?? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Kevin >>>> >>>> ? >>>> ? >>>> >>>> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 12:09, Paschal Ochang >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dissolution of Appeal Committees while appeals are still on board >>>>> without justification, non transparent reclamation of resources from >>>>> members without proper justification using drastic measures, installation >>>>> of new cochairs without conforming to laid down procedures. The list goes >>>>> on and on. Worrying times. >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, July 14, 2021, tech wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> This letter is a follow-up to the unfortunate incident arising from >>>>>> the actions taken by AFRINIC (African Network Information Centre), >>>>>> including terminating our (Cloud Innovation Ltd) membership and reclaiming >>>>>> our number resources which we consider to have been totally unnecessary, >>>>>> unreasonable, and unjust. The action has not caused only serious damage to >>>>>> Cloud Innovation and hundreds of its clients' businesses, but also to >>>>>> hundreds of millions of end-users who were potentially endangered at the >>>>>> same time. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> We are pleased to announce that urgent interim relief has been >>>>>> granted to Cloud Innovation by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of the >>>>>> Supreme Court of Mauritius( herewith attached) to prevent AFRINIC from >>>>>> reclaiming our number resources in such illegal manner. As a result >>>>>> of which, Cloud Innovation will now be in a position to resume >>>>>> business as normal until the issues are resolved before the competent >>>>>> courts.. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> For the sake of clarity and transparency, we would share with you as >>>>>> set out below the background which led to the current state of affairs: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - AFRINIC issued a letter to Cloud Innovation on June 23, 2020, >>>>>> accusing Cloud Innovation of policy violations. AFRINIC threatened to take >>>>>> actions and demanded an immediate response within 14 days. Despite the >>>>>> short notice, Cloud Innovation investigated AFRINIC's accusations >>>>>> carefully. Cloud Innovation did not find any policy violations of its own >>>>>> but only AFRINIC's own misinterpretation of its policy document and errors >>>>>> in understanding the nature of BGP. Cloud Innovation duly issued a response >>>>>> on 13 July 2020, within the deadline set by AFRINIC to explain the >>>>>> misunderstanding of AFRINIC?s own documents and erroneous assertions >>>>>> regarding routing. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - After eight months, AFRINIC issued a letter on 10 March 2021 ( >>>>>> being the first day Mauritius went into a second national lockdown due to >>>>>> COVID-19) to Cloud Innovation, raising similar alleged breaches as >>>>>> those alleged in June 2020 but with the following warning note:: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *To address the aforementioned issues, Cloud Innovation Ltd is hereby >>>>>> most formally required to promptly and accurately submit its ?change >>>>>> request? in compliance with Clauses 4(a) and 2(d) of the RSA, as well as >>>>>> ensure full compliance with AFRINIC. The ?change request? must* >>>>>> >>>>>> *include:* >>>>>> >>>>>> *I. Detailed utilisation information for all the aforementioned IPv4 >>>>>> prefixes including the services for which the resources are being used and >>>>>> country of service origin.* >>>>>> >>>>>> *II. Planned utilisation of your remaining IPv4 space for the next 8 >>>>>> months* >>>>>> >>>>>> *III.Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by >>>>>> 12-04-2021, by the close of business.* >>>>>> >>>>>> *AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will >>>>>> in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to >>>>>> proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud >>>>>> Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held >>>>>> liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present >>>>>> notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. Your >>>>>> ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close >>>>>> of business.AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and >>>>>> will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well >>>>>> as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to >>>>>> Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be >>>>>> held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the >>>>>> present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance * >>>>>> thereof. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The false accusations made by AFRINIC and our response/views >>>>>> are attached in a separate document (named:Chronology) for the benefit of >>>>>> all the community.. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - As the 3rd largest member of AFRINIC, Cloud Innovation serves >>>>>> hundreds of millions of end-users through hundreds of telecoms and ISPs >>>>>> around the world. The services, such as hosting websites, counts for >>>>>> over 1.5 million websites hosted by Cloud Innovation's IP alone. Thus, >>>>>> there is no way, especially with the size of Cloud Innovation, to fully and >>>>>> wholly satisfy AFRINIC's request within the timeframe it provided. With the >>>>>> real threat of membership termination and hundreds of millions of users' >>>>>> connectivity on the line, Cloud Innovation was left with no option but to >>>>>> seek the mercy of the court in Mauritius during a period of lockdown with >>>>>> limited resources. An interim order of injunction was therefore issued by >>>>>> the Mauritius court on April 7,2021 to protect the interests of end-users >>>>>> and to forbid AFRINIC from acting irrationally. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - By virtue of a judgment issued on the evening of 7 July >>>>>> 2021, the said injunction was lifted on the basis of a mere legal >>>>>> technicality basis, which was partially caused by the inability to provide >>>>>> a power of attorney to our lawyers in Mauritius during the total lockdown >>>>>> of Mauritius, a direct result of AFRINIC releasing such a letter to us on >>>>>> the first day of the Mauritius lockdown. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - In order to protect our interests and the hundreds of >>>>>> millions of users of number resources registered to us, we took immediate >>>>>> action by filing an appeal against the judgment on the very next day.. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - In order to safeguard its interests, Cloud Innovation had to >>>>>> again seek urgent relief before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. By >>>>>> virtue of an interim order of injunction issued on 13 July 2021, AFRINIC >>>>>> has been restrained and prohibited from terminating our membership and >>>>>> reclaiming our number resources. The said proceedings are now >>>>>> pending before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - We welcome the urgent intervention of the Supreme Court of >>>>>> Mauritius for interim relief in order to protect our rights as a member. . >>>>>> We would like to inform those concerned that the operations of our number >>>>>> resources will revert to normal at the earliest as AFRINIC is under an >>>>>> obligation to comply with the Judge?s Order as attached. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - We wish to emphasise that as an AFRINIC member in good >>>>>> standing, we consistently abide by their policy and strive to contribute to >>>>>> the community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take >>>>>> any action against AFRINIC but are obligated to take the appropriate >>>>>> measures to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds >>>>>> of millions of end-users. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - We reserve full and absolute legal rights and remedies in >>>>>> respect to AFRINIC's actions against us. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> We would also like to clarify that as the NRO has stated in their >>>>>> letter, "All RIRs, on occasion, face allegations of errors in >>>>>> implementation of policy or agreements, and such disputes, being routine in >>>>>> nature are best handled by the individual RIR and/or its community ", such >>>>>> routine disagreement (mostly in all the other RIRs, or AFRINIC before this >>>>>> management) is sorted by merely communicating between the tech team and the >>>>>> registration services department of the respective RIR. It has never come >>>>>> to such drastic actions before, like the RIR threatening and endangering >>>>>> the very stability of the Internet. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> We trust the above has shed some light on the matter for all those >>>>>> concerned. We are grateful for the continued belief and support we have >>>>>> received from all of you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kind regards, >>>>> >>>>> Paschal. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nishal at controlfreak.co.za Wed Jul 14 11:25:58 2021 From: nishal at controlfreak.co.za (Nishal Goburdhan) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:25:58 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Use of space outside of application In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 14 Jul 2021, at 12:58, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote: [snip] > it makes AfriNIC god judge and jury .. [snip] since this is now in - y?know, an *actual* court, with, y?know, an *actual* judge - how about we let that actual court weigh in, and not create unnecessary, and unwanted hyperboles? i?m sure there?s enough real work to keep us all otherwise busy whilst we wait for an answer. -n. From pascosoft at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 11:33:40 2021 From: pascosoft at gmail.com (Paschal Ochang) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 12:33:40 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: <4A48BDC7-9312-4E6E-8944-2EAFFF8D599A@delong.com> References: <4A48BDC7-9312-4E6E-8944-2EAFFF8D599A@delong.com> Message-ID: To all actors in this discussion I thought the PDWG chairs told us to abandon this but some who claim to be oldies in the community continue show disregard for constituted authority. Now I push it back to the cochairs I want to see some barking and biting not empty threats of caution. Your directive has been violated. Whats the repercussion? On Wednesday, July 14, 2021, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > Once again, I apologize to the list for this off-topic disruption, but I > feel that I cannot leave this unanswered. > > No, discussing off topic matters on a public list is a practice of bad > actors in the community. > > Taking a private message and making it public is a practice of bad actors > in the community. > > Responding privately to an off-topic public email is the act of a. > responsible member of the community. > > Sadly, criticizing someone?s bad acts publicly is also generally not > preferable to doing so in private, but in this case, I believe you have > created a need to go public with my retort, so now you have it. > > Owen > > On Jul 14, 2021, at 04:08 , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > > Thank you Owen for the email, > > I do not appreciate private emails as the matter was published and is > being publicly discussed. > > This is a practice of bad actors in the community. > > Daniel > > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:56, Owen DeLong wrote: > >> Daniel, >> >> Responding in private since this is off-topic for the list. >> >> This really has nothing to do with the AFRNIC PDP and has to do with >> things I want to be able to say and advocate for in the ARIN region. >> >> There is no conflict between my activities in AFRINIC PDP and my role on >> the ARIN AC. >> >> As to my interest in the AFRINIC PDP, you should note that I?m also at >> various times active in APNIC, LACNIC, RIPE, and ARIN PDPs. >> >> I make my living as a consultant and I have at various times had clients >> all over the world and some clients with global networks. As a result, I am >> often asked to pay attention to the PDP in those regions. >> >> I am also someone with a strong sense of community service. As such, >> since I am obliged to monitor the process for my client(s) anyway, I will >> often work towards what I perceive as the best interests of the community >> (regardless of whether it is best for my client or not) and I will often >> advocate as such. In general, I select clients who are generally >> ideologically aligned with me. >> >> One exception is Cloud Innovation. While I am not ideologically 100% in >> agreement with them and do not necessarily favor the current state of >> policy which benefits them, I am even more concerned that the RIRs cannot >> simply make up policy or randomly interpret policy to suit their >> ideological goals and must, instead, follow the policy as written until it >> is amended through the proper community process. >> >> AFRINIC has a long history of corruption, election irregularities, >> financial misdeeds, and failure to properly follow its own rules in both >> its governance process and in its management of the IP registry database. >> As such, I have maintained a high level of interest in AFRINIC?s doings in >> an effort to do what I can to help resolve those issues. >> >> Owen >> >> On Jul 14, 2021, at 03:38 , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: >> >> Dear Marcus, >> >> I strongly agree, that there are policy updates from the other RIRs, what >> is catching my interest at the moment is that Owen has been one of the very >> active participants on PDP and I believe AFRINIC has a high level of >> freedom of expression. >> When he gives a reason that he wants to have greater freedom and >> flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of >> which would be considered a conflict of interest with his role as an >> Advisory Council member. I begin to realise that Owen could have been >> having a high conflict of interest which conflicted with his position on >> the AC. >> >> Dear Owen, >> Owen, kindly advise how we could deal with the Conflict of Interest in >> the PDP as you state it clearly in your reason. Furthermore, I still have >> question marks as to why the AFRINIC PDP is of high interest to you - yet >> the Policies discussed are for the development of the Internet in Africa. >> Is something wrong with the AFRINIC PDP that stimulates high interest for >> your participation in AFRINIC Process that the Africa participants have >> failed to solve which requires your expertise? >> >> Is ARIN more superior than AFRINIC? >> >> Thanks >> Daniel >> >> >> ? >> >> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:26, Marcus K. G. Adomey >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Owen and PDWG, >>> >>> I don?t think this is an off-topic. There are reasons why we always have >>> session on ?policy update from other RIRs? at every PPM?it?s like we care >>> for what happened at ARIN PDP through its AC and possible impact on our >>> PDP and related issues >>> >>> In response to the statement below, one would like to know why is Owen >>> talking about ? was not forced to resign?? Nobody said so AFAIK, how >>> come the position at ARIN constitute restraint to speech and why only now? >>> >>> And question for this community is how do we deal with conflict of >>> interest in our PDP? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> >>> >>> Marcus >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss >> > >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:03:19 PM >>> *To:* Arnaud AMELINA >>> *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC ; >>> AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List >>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? >>> >>> Apologies to the list for this off-topic posting, but given the >>> unwarranted attention already paid to the >>> matter and the escalating level of speculation, I beg your indulgence. >>> This will (hopefully) be the >>> only post I make on the matter here. >>> >>> For clarity: >>> >>> 1. I chose to resign my position on the ARIN AC. I was not forced to >>> resign. I did not have to resign. >>> So your speculation is neither accurate, nor appropriate and the >>> implications are offensive. >>> >>> 2. I chose to resign in order to have greater freedom and flexibility >>> to advocate for changes in the >>> internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of >>> interest with my role as >>> an Advisory Council member. While I have been outspoken by most >>> standards, the reality is >>> that my position on the AC did serve as a significant restraint to my >>> speech in many cases. >>> The time has come where I felt the need to remove that restraint in >>> order to best serve the >>> community. >>> >>> Reading anything other than the above into it would be a mistake and >>> further speculation is very >>> unlikely to produce any accurate conclusions. >>> >>> If anyone has questions about my resignation, they are free to ask me >>> directly, but this really is >>> not an appropriate topic for this list. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>> >>> On Jul 13, 2021, at 05:56 , Arnaud AMELINA wrote: >>> >>> @Taiwo >>> >>> We all would like to know why Owen, so active in our PDP, has to resign >>> from his position at ARIN AC which serves in an advisory capacity to the >>> Board of Trustees on Internet number resource policy and related matters. >>> >>> -- >>> Arnaud >>> >>> Le lun. 12 juil. 2021 ? 12:37, Taiwo Oye a >>> ?crit : >>> >>> ?Benjilo. >>> How is this of concern to you or to any of the members of the afrinic >>> community. Kindly direct your question to the appropriate quarters - >>> owen at delong.com - >>> >>> >>> On Jul 11, 2021, at 19:27, Paschal Ochang wrote: >>> >>> ?Great question Daniel. >>> >>> On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: >>> >>> Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello >>> >>> Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC >>> PDP resigned from ARIN AC? >>> >>> https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 >>> >>> >>> >>> Marcus >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Paschal. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> RPD mailing list >>> RPD at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> >> ? > > > -- Kind regards, Paschal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ibeanusielvis at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 12:17:00 2021 From: ibeanusielvis at gmail.com (Ibeanusi Elvis) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 21:17:00 +0900 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <33ECEF4F-A64B-48AC-BC28-19A2AB3D0CA9@gmail.com> References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> <33ECEF4F-A64B-48AC-BC28-19A2AB3D0CA9@gmail.com> Message-ID: The list of the unjust, questionable, unreasonable actions and the abusive misuse of power of the AFRINIC goes on and on. An outline of the reasons justifying their actions which tends to put lots of end users at risk and in severe danger. If the internet community should let this slide, a repetition is plausible hence, we depend answers from the AFRINIC. Regards, Elvis On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 20:19 Mike Silber wrote: > > > On 14 Jul 2021, at 13:10, Wijdane Goubi wrote: > > I completely endorse this. > > Recently, AFRINIC has been operating in a suspicious manner, leading us to > wonder what is driving these acts. Furthermore, AFRINIC appears to be > unconcerned about the potential ramifications of such decisions for > millions of users, which is highly troubling. Who will address this issue > if we as a community do not address it and speak out loudly about it? > > Furthermore, we have not been given any information about the meeting or > the decision-making process, which is our absolute and complete > entitlement. It's a membership termination issue for a company with a large > number of employees who will lose their jobs instantly, as well as millions > of end users who will lose access to the internet as a result of this > "decision". > > I highly urge AFRINIC to respond to all of these concerns in a timely > manner because they are genuine and affect not only the community but also > the end users. > > Regards, > Wijdane > > Le mer. 14 juil. 2021 ? 03:43, tech a ?crit : > >> This letter is a follow-up to the unfortunate incident arising from the >> actions taken by AFRINIC (African Network Information Centre), including >> terminating our (Cloud Innovation Ltd) membership and reclaiming our number >> resources which we consider to have been totally unnecessary, unreasonable, >> and unjust. The action has not caused only serious damage to Cloud >> Innovation and hundreds of its clients' businesses, but also to hundreds of >> millions of end-users who were potentially endangered at the same time. >> >> We are pleased to announce that urgent interim relief has been granted >> to Cloud Innovation by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of the Supreme >> Court of Mauritius( herewith attached) to prevent AFRINIC from reclaiming >> our number resources in such illegal manner. As a result of which, Cloud >> Innovation will now be in a position to resume business as normal until the >> issues are resolved before the competent courts.. >> >> For the sake of clarity and transparency, we would share with you as set >> out below the background which led to the current state of affairs: >> >> - AFRINIC issued a letter to Cloud Innovation on June 23, 2020, >> accusing Cloud Innovation of policy violations. AFRINIC threatened to take >> actions and demanded an immediate response within 14 days. Despite the >> short notice, Cloud Innovation investigated AFRINIC's accusations >> carefully. Cloud Innovation did not find any policy violations of its own >> but only AFRINIC's own misinterpretation of its policy document and errors >> in understanding the nature of BGP. Cloud Innovation duly issued a response >> on 13 July 2020, within the deadline set by AFRINIC to explain the >> misunderstanding of AFRINIC?s own documents and erroneous assertions >> regarding routing. >> >> - After eight months, AFRINIC issued a letter on 10 March 2021 ( >> being the first day Mauritius went into a second national lockdown due to >> COVID-19) to Cloud Innovation, raising similar alleged breaches as >> those alleged in June 2020 but with the following warning note:: >> >> *To address the aforementioned issues, Cloud Innovation Ltd is hereby >> most formally required to promptly and accurately submit its ?change >> request? in compliance with Clauses 4(a) and 2(d) of the RSA, as well as >> ensure full compliance with AFRINIC. The ?change request? must* >> *include:* >> *I. Detailed utilisation information for all the aforementioned IPv4 >> prefixes including the services for which the resources are being used and >> country of service origin.* >> *II. Planned utilisation of your remaining IPv4 space for the next 8 >> months* >> *III.Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, >> by the close of business.* >> *AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in >> its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to >> proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud >> Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held >> liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present >> notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. Your >> ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close >> of business.AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and >> will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well >> as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to >> Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be >> held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the >> present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance * >> thereof. >> >> The false accusations made by AFRINIC and our response/views are >> attached in a separate document (named:Chronology) for the benefit of all >> the community.. >> >> - As the 3rd largest member of AFRINIC, Cloud Innovation serves >> hundreds of millions of end-users through hundreds of telecoms and ISPs >> around the world. The services, such as hosting websites, counts for >> over 1.5 million websites hosted by Cloud Innovation's IP alone. Thus, >> there is no way, especially with the size of Cloud Innovation, to fully and >> wholly satisfy AFRINIC's request within the timeframe it provided. With the >> real threat of membership termination and hundreds of millions of users' >> connectivity on the line, Cloud Innovation was left with no option but to >> seek the mercy of the court in Mauritius during a period of lockdown with >> limited resources. An interim order of injunction was therefore issued by >> the Mauritius court on April 7,2021 to protect the interests of end-users >> and to forbid AFRINIC from acting irrationally. >> >> >> >> - By virtue of a judgment issued on the evening of 7 July 2021, >> the said injunction was lifted on the basis of a mere legal technicality >> basis, which was partially caused by the inability to provide a power of >> attorney to our lawyers in Mauritius during the total lockdown of >> Mauritius, a direct result of AFRINIC releasing such a letter to us on the >> first day of the Mauritius lockdown. >> >> >> - In order to protect our interests and the hundreds of millions >> of users of number resources registered to us, we took immediate action by >> filing an appeal against the judgment on the very next day.. >> >> >> - In order to safeguard its interests, Cloud Innovation had to >> again seek urgent relief before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. By >> virtue of an interim order of injunction issued on 13 July 2021, AFRINIC >> has been restrained and prohibited from terminating our membership and >> reclaiming our number resources. The said proceedings are now pending >> before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. >> >> >> - We welcome the urgent intervention of the Supreme Court of >> Mauritius for interim relief in order to protect our rights as a member. . >> We would like to inform those concerned that the operations of our number >> resources will revert to normal at the earliest as AFRINIC is under an >> obligation to comply with the Judge?s Order as attached. >> >> >> - We wish to emphasise that as an AFRINIC member in good standing, >> we consistently abide by their policy and strive to contribute to the >> community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take any >> action against AFRINIC but are obligated to take the appropriate measures >> to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds of >> millions of end-users. >> >> >> - We reserve full and absolute legal rights and remedies in >> respect to AFRINIC's actions against us. >> >> We would also like to clarify that as the NRO has stated in their letter, >> "All RIRs, on occasion, face allegations of errors in implementation of >> policy or agreements, and such disputes, being routine in nature are best >> handled by the individual RIR and/or its community ", such routine >> disagreement (mostly in all the other RIRs, or AFRINIC before this >> management) is sorted by merely communicating between the tech team and the >> registration services department of the respective RIR. It has never come >> to such drastic actions before, like the RIR threatening and endangering >> the very stability of the Internet. >> >> We trust the above has shed some light on the matter for all those >> concerned. We are grateful for the continued belief and support we have >> received from all of you. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: istockphoto-485866163-1024x1024.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 475203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From madomey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 12:26:05 2021 From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 12:26:05 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Owen, Why have you BCC me the email you sent to Daniel? Why can't you send your response to the entire mailing list? Is there something hidden in this private email and you would not want the others to know about? The point being discuss is of interest and we need to know. Please let us be transparent and open to the PDWG. Thanks, Marcus ________________________________ From: Owen DeLong Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 10:56 AM To: DANIEL NANGHAKA ; Marcus K. G. Adomey Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? Daniel, Responding in private since this is off-topic for the list. This really has nothing to do with the AFRNIC PDP and has to do with things I want to be able to say and advocate for in the ARIN region. There is no conflict between my activities in AFRINIC PDP and my role on the ARIN AC. As to my interest in the AFRINIC PDP, you should note that I?m also at various times active in APNIC, LACNIC, RIPE, and ARIN PDPs. I make my living as a consultant and I have at various times had clients all over the world and some clients with global networks. As a result, I am often asked to pay attention to the PDP in those regions. I am also someone with a strong sense of community service. As such, since I am obliged to monitor the process for my client(s) anyway, I will often work towards what I perceive as the best interests of the community (regardless of whether it is best for my client or not) and I will often advocate as such. In general, I select clients who are generally ideologically aligned with me. One exception is Cloud Innovation. While I am not ideologically 100% in agreement with them and do not necessarily favor the current state of policy which benefits them, I am even more concerned that the RIRs cannot simply make up policy or randomly interpret policy to suit their ideological goals and must, instead, follow the policy as written until it is amended through the proper community process. AFRINIC has a long history of corruption, election irregularities, financial misdeeds, and failure to properly follow its own rules in both its governance process and in its management of the IP registry database. As such, I have maintained a high level of interest in AFRINIC?s doings in an effort to do what I can to help resolve those issues. Owen On Jul 14, 2021, at 03:38 , DANIEL NANGHAKA > wrote: Dear Marcus, I strongly agree, that there are policy updates from the other RIRs, what is catching my interest at the moment is that Owen has been one of the very active participants on PDP and I believe AFRINIC has a high level of freedom of expression. When he gives a reason that he wants to have greater freedom and flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of interest with his role as an Advisory Council member. I begin to realise that Owen could have been having a high conflict of interest which conflicted with his position on the AC. Dear Owen, Owen, kindly advise how we could deal with the Conflict of Interest in the PDP as you state it clearly in your reason. Furthermore, I still have question marks as to why the AFRINIC PDP is of high interest to you - yet the Policies discussed are for the development of the Internet in Africa. Is something wrong with the AFRINIC PDP that stimulates high interest for your participation in AFRINIC Process that the Africa participants have failed to solve which requires your expertise? Is ARIN more superior than AFRINIC? Thanks Daniel [https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=aZG5kYW5uYW5nQGdtYWlsLmNvbQ%3D%3D&type=zerocontent&guid=a9e695cc-c10a-4179-9b43-33032923c218]? On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:26, Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: Dear Owen and PDWG, I don?t think this is an off-topic. There are reasons why we always have session on ?policy update from other RIRs? at every PPM?it?s like we care for what happened at ARIN PDP through its AC and possible impact on our PDP and related issues In response to the statement below, one would like to know why is Owen talking about ? was not forced to resign?? Nobody said so AFAIK, how come the position at ARIN constitute restraint to speech and why only now? And question for this community is how do we deal with conflict of interest in our PDP? Thanks Marcus ________________________________ From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:03:19 PM To: Arnaud AMELINA > Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC >; AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? Apologies to the list for this off-topic posting, but given the unwarranted attention already paid to the matter and the escalating level of speculation, I beg your indulgence. This will (hopefully) be the only post I make on the matter here. For clarity: 1. I chose to resign my position on the ARIN AC. I was not forced to resign. I did not have to resign. So your speculation is neither accurate, nor appropriate and the implications are offensive. 2. I chose to resign in order to have greater freedom and flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of interest with my role as an Advisory Council member. While I have been outspoken by most standards, the reality is that my position on the AC did serve as a significant restraint to my speech in many cases. The time has come where I felt the need to remove that restraint in order to best serve the community. Reading anything other than the above into it would be a mistake and further speculation is very unlikely to produce any accurate conclusions. If anyone has questions about my resignation, they are free to ask me directly, but this really is not an appropriate topic for this list. Owen On Jul 13, 2021, at 05:56 , Arnaud AMELINA > wrote: @Taiwo We all would like to know why Owen, so active in our PDP, has to resign from his position at ARIN AC which serves in an advisory capacity to the Board of Trustees on Internet number resource policy and related matters. -- Arnaud Le lun. 12 juil. 2021 ? 12:37, Taiwo Oye > a ?crit : ?Benjilo. How is this of concern to you or to any of the members of the afrinic community. Kindly direct your question to the appropriate quarters - owen at delong.com - On Jul 11, 2021, at 19:27, Paschal Ochang > wrote: ?Great question Daniel. On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA > wrote: Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: Hello Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP resigned from ARIN AC? https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 Marcus _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- Kind regards, Paschal. _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ RPD mailing list RPD at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From abscoco at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 13:08:09 2021 From: abscoco at gmail.com (Sylvain Baya) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 14:08:09 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Use of space outside of application In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear AfriNIC's Community, ...comment below, please! Le mercredi 14 juillet 2021, Nishal Goburdhan a ?crit : > On 14 Jul 2021, at 12:58, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote: > > [snip] > > it makes AfriNIC god judge and jury .. >> > > [snip] > > since this is now in - y?know, an *actual* court, with, y?know, an > *actual* judge - how about we let that actual court weigh in, and not > create unnecessary, and unwanted hyperboles? > i?m sure there?s enough real work to keep us all otherwise busy whilst we > wait for an answer. Hi Nishal, Thanks for this wise suggestion, brother! ...i'ld like to add that it's still possible for anyone to submit [1] a DPP (Draft Policy Proposal) to the PDWG [2], if one thinks something needs to be corrected in the actual version of the CPM [2]. __ [1]: [2]: [3]: ...maybe it would be more efficient than pouring FUD [4] on AfriNIC's future :'-( __ [4]: ...in the very topic [5] to help those who want to try something :-/ __ [5]: Shalom, --sb. > -n. > [...] -- -- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]| Subscribe to Mailing List: __ #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmurungi at wia.co.tz Wed Jul 14 13:44:54 2021 From: dmurungi at wia.co.tz (Murungi Daniel) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 16:44:54 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Use of space outside of application In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you sir. > > [snip] > > since this is now in - y?know, an *actual* court, with, y?know, an *actual* judge - how about we let that actual court weigh in, and not create unnecessary, and unwanted hyperboles? > i?m sure there?s enough real work to keep us all otherwise busy whilst we wait for an answer. > > -n. > Regards, Murungi Daniel From lamiaachnayti at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 14:08:10 2021 From: lamiaachnayti at gmail.com (Lamiaa Chnayti) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 15:08:10 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? In-Reply-To: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> References: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> Message-ID: Indeed, based on Afrinic's recent hasty and quick reaction to act as the court, freeze the company's resources and dedicate a whole post for it in such a small frame of time, I would've assumed they would be more efficient in fixing this mess. Not only this, but as seen from other posts and threads, many questions are left unanswered. Whether it is done intentionally or not, it is not setting the best image for Afrinic's management... Best regards, Lamiaa On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 09:36, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > Could AFRINIC please comply with the court order to reinstate Cloud > Innovation? > > It?s one thing when you can?t follow your own rules, but you?re now > violating the law and > working hard towards a contempt citation. It didn?t take long to screw up > our whois entries, > it shouldn?t take long to put them back. > > As of 12:26 PM Mauritius time, Wed. July 14, 2021: > > whois -h whois.afrinic.net 154.88.0.0 > 2021/07/14 1:25:44 > % This is the AfriNIC Whois server. > % The AFRINIC whois database is subject to the following terms of Use. > See https://afrinic.net/whois/terms > > % Note: this output has been filtered. > % To receive output for a database update, use the "-B" flag. > > % Information related to '154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255' > > % No abuse contact registered for 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 > > inetnum: 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 > netname: CloudInnovation > descr: CloudInnovation infrastructure > country: US > admin-c: APC1-AFRINIC > tech-c: APC1-AFRINIC > status: ASSIGNED PA > remarks: ============REMARK==================== > remarks: As a consequence of the termination of the Registration > Service > remarks: Agreement with Cloud Innovation Ltd, this IP prefix has > been revoked > remarks: from this Resource Member and it only exists as a > placeholder record on > remarks: WHOIS as from 8th July 2021 and will be deleted after 7th > October 2021. > remarks: Kindly note that no further changes are possible for this > remarks: prefix(frozen/locked). Users of this prefix and its > corresponding route > remarks: objects and reverse DNS objects are advised to consider > other available > remarks: options before the said date. This grace period of 90 days > is a > remarks: demonstration of good faith of AFRINIC as a Regional > Internet Registry > remarks: to prevent sudden disruption to the Internet connectivity > of the > remarks: relevant users. > remarks: ============REMARK==================== > mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT > mnt-routes: AFRINIC-HM-MNT > source: AFRINIC # Filtered > parent: 154.80.0.0 - 154.95.255.255 > > person: AFRINIC Placeholder Contact > address: 11th Floor, Standard Chartered Tower, 19, Cybercity, > Eb??ne, Mauritius > phone: tel:+230-403-5100 > nic-hdl: APC1-AFRINIC > mnt-by: AFRINIC-DB-MNT > source: AFRINIC # Filtered > > Please correct this with all due haste before further enforcement action > is required. > > > Thanks, > > Owen > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erickj.lagon at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 14:34:59 2021 From: erickj.lagon at gmail.com (Erick Joshua Lagon) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 22:34:59 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? In-Reply-To: References: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> Message-ID: I agree with Owen and Lamiaa as well. AFRINIC is endangering millions of clients with their erratic and dishonest ways. Until now, we have not seen the supposed "minutes" of the meeting of how the decision came to be. Are they hiding something? Clearly, there is a grave abuse of discretion in this matter. As a democracy, we are entitled to the freedom of information that comes with this. As a community, we must see to it that we are fostering an environment of integrity and transparency. Regards, Erick On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 10:09 PM Lamiaa Chnayti wrote: > Indeed, based on Afrinic's recent hasty and quick reaction to act as the > court, freeze the company's resources and dedicate a whole post for it in > such a small frame of time, I would've assumed they would be more efficient > in fixing this mess. Not only this, but as seen from other posts and > threads, many questions are left unanswered. Whether it is done > intentionally or not, it is not setting the best image for Afrinic's > management... > > Best regards, > Lamiaa > > > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 09:36, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > >> Could AFRINIC please comply with the court order to reinstate Cloud >> Innovation? >> >> It?s one thing when you can?t follow your own rules, but you?re now >> violating the law and >> working hard towards a contempt citation. It didn?t take long to screw up >> our whois entries, >> it shouldn?t take long to put them back. >> >> As of 12:26 PM Mauritius time, Wed. July 14, 2021: >> >> whois -h whois.afrinic.net 154.88.0.0 >> 2021/07/14 1:25:44 >> % This is the AfriNIC Whois server. >> % The AFRINIC whois database is subject to the following terms of Use. >> See https://afrinic.net/whois/terms >> >> % Note: this output has been filtered. >> % To receive output for a database update, use the "-B" flag. >> >> % Information related to '154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255' >> >> % No abuse contact registered for 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 >> >> inetnum: 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 >> netname: CloudInnovation >> descr: CloudInnovation infrastructure >> country: US >> admin-c: APC1-AFRINIC >> tech-c: APC1-AFRINIC >> status: ASSIGNED PA >> remarks: ============REMARK==================== >> remarks: As a consequence of the termination of the Registration >> Service >> remarks: Agreement with Cloud Innovation Ltd, this IP prefix has >> been revoked >> remarks: from this Resource Member and it only exists as a >> placeholder record on >> remarks: WHOIS as from 8th July 2021 and will be deleted after 7th >> October 2021. >> remarks: Kindly note that no further changes are possible for this >> remarks: prefix(frozen/locked). Users of this prefix and its >> corresponding route >> remarks: objects and reverse DNS objects are advised to consider >> other available >> remarks: options before the said date. This grace period of 90 >> days is a >> remarks: demonstration of good faith of AFRINIC as a Regional >> Internet Registry >> remarks: to prevent sudden disruption to the Internet connectivity >> of the >> remarks: relevant users. >> remarks: ============REMARK==================== >> mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT >> mnt-routes: AFRINIC-HM-MNT >> source: AFRINIC # Filtered >> parent: 154.80.0.0 - 154.95.255.255 >> >> person: AFRINIC Placeholder Contact >> address: 11th Floor, Standard Chartered Tower, 19, Cybercity, >> Eb??ne, Mauritius >> phone: tel:+230-403-5100 >> nic-hdl: APC1-AFRINIC >> mnt-by: AFRINIC-DB-MNT >> source: AFRINIC # Filtered >> >> Please correct this with all due haste before further enforcement action >> is required. >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Owen >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b.sowers154 at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 14:22:19 2021 From: b.sowers154 at gmail.com (Brian Sowers) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:22:19 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From silber.mike at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 14:47:10 2021 From: silber.mike at gmail.com (Mike Silber) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 16:47:10 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? In-Reply-To: References: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> Message-ID: <4EF6DD90-598C-4D92-9310-32D5A127D01D@gmail.com> > On 14 Jul 2021, at 16:34, Erick Joshua Lagon wrote: > > I agree with Owen and Lamiaa as well. AFRINIC is endangering millions of clients with their erratic and dishonest ways. Until now, we have not seen the supposed "minutes" of the meeting of how the decision came to be. Are they hiding something? Clearly, there is a grave abuse of discretion in this matter. As a democracy, we are entitled to the freedom of information that comes with this. As a community, we must see to it that we are fostering an environment of integrity and transparency. > > Regards, > Erick > > On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 10:09 PM Lamiaa Chnayti > wrote: > Indeed, based on Afrinic's recent hasty and quick reaction to act as the court, freeze the company's resources and dedicate a whole post for it in such a small frame of time, I would've assumed they would be more efficient in fixing this mess. Not only this, but as seen from other posts and threads, many questions are left unanswered. Whether it is done intentionally or not, it is not setting the best image for Afrinic's management... > > Best regards, > Lamiaa > > > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 09:36, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: > Could AFRINIC please comply with the court order to reinstate Cloud Innovation? > > It?s one thing when you can?t follow your own rules, but you?re now violating the law and > working hard towards a contempt citation. It didn?t take long to screw up our whois entries, > it shouldn?t take long to put them back. > > As of 12:26 PM Mauritius time, Wed. July 14, 2021: > > whois -h whois.afrinic.net 154.88.0.0 2021/07/14 1:25:44 > % This is the AfriNIC Whois server. > % The AFRINIC whois database is subject to the following terms of Use. See https://afrinic.net/whois/terms > > % Note: this output has been filtered. > % To receive output for a database update, use the "-B" flag. > > % Information related to '154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255' > > % No abuse contact registered for 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 > > inetnum: 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 > netname: CloudInnovation > descr: CloudInnovation infrastructure > country: US > admin-c: APC1-AFRINIC > tech-c: APC1-AFRINIC > status: ASSIGNED PA > remarks: ============REMARK==================== > remarks: As a consequence of the termination of the Registration Service > remarks: Agreement with Cloud Innovation Ltd, this IP prefix has been revoked > remarks: from this Resource Member and it only exists as a placeholder record on > remarks: WHOIS as from 8th July 2021 and will be deleted after 7th October 2021. > remarks: Kindly note that no further changes are possible for this > remarks: prefix(frozen/locked). Users of this prefix and its corresponding route > remarks: objects and reverse DNS objects are advised to consider other available > remarks: options before the said date. This grace period of 90 days is a > remarks: demonstration of good faith of AFRINIC as a Regional Internet Registry > remarks: to prevent sudden disruption to the Internet connectivity of the > remarks: relevant users. > remarks: ============REMARK==================== > mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT > mnt-routes: AFRINIC-HM-MNT > source: AFRINIC # Filtered > parent: 154.80.0.0 - 154.95.255.255 > > person: AFRINIC Placeholder Contact > address: 11th Floor, Standard Chartered Tower, 19, Cybercity, Eb??ne, Mauritius > phone: tel:+230-403-5100 > nic-hdl: APC1-AFRINIC > mnt-by: AFRINIC-DB-MNT > source: AFRINIC # Filtered > > Please correct this with all due haste before further enforcement action is required. > > > Thanks, > > Owen > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: istockphoto-485866163-1024x1024.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 475203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From silber.mike at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 14:47:23 2021 From: silber.mike at gmail.com (Mike Silber) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 16:47:23 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 14 Jul 2021, at 16:22, Brian Sowers wrote: > > For AFRINIC to be able to operate under ?questionable circumstances? without consequence save from the community board is quite difficult to believe. There really needs to be more interaction between the operations of AFRINIC and an independent inspecting agency. Recent decisions from the AFRINIC board have been dubious at best and yet it continues to operate as such. It has become clear whatever standard of accountability AFRINIC ostensibly adheres to on paper is overlooked in practice. Either AFRINIC is sorely misguided in understanding its own policy, or it is operating according to their own best interests immune to any concept of accountability. > > -Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: istockphoto-485866163-1024x1024.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 475203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dabu.sifiso at yandex.com Wed Jul 14 15:38:37 2021 From: dabu.sifiso at yandex.com (Dabu Sifiso) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:38:37 -0500 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? In-Reply-To: References: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> Message-ID: <355031626276504@sas1-17582c8cbad7.qloud-c.yandex.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmurungi at wia.co.tz Wed Jul 14 13:30:35 2021 From: dmurungi at wia.co.tz (Murungi Daniel) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 16:30:35 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Use of space outside of application In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you sir. > On Jul 14, 2021, at 2:25 PM, Nishal Goburdhan > wrote: > > since this is now in - y?know, an *actual* court, with, y?know, an *actual* judge - how about we let that actual court weigh in, and not create unnecessary, and unwanted hyperboles? > i?m sure there?s enough real work to keep us all otherwise busy whilst we wait for an answer. > > -n. Regards, Murungi Daniel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From abscoco at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 16:55:47 2021 From: abscoco at gmail.com (Sylvain Baya) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 17:55:47 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: Dear AfriNIC's Community, Le mercredi 14 juillet 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA a ?crit : > Hello Mimi, > > It's not questioning MU's court decision, AFRINIC has Policies and a > process to handle complaints which include number resources. > Tickets act as proof of damage of occurrence when a situation arises. > > Hi Daniel, Thanks for your email, brother! ...i'ld also be interested to see what CI Ltd has to share more, in continuity of its welcomed demonstration of transparency? So, African's end-users/sites matter? Please see the Request Tracker (RT) interface here: Shalom, --sb. > There is information that is lacking, why dont you provide the required > specific information, what is hindering CI from providing information that > they feel is relevant in the process. > > I advise you to fill up the holes accurately such that the pot can be able > to hold water. > > Thank you > Daniel > ? > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:40, Mimi dy wrote: > >> >>> [...] >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, July 14, 2021, tech wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> [...] >>>>>> >>>>> >>> -- -- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]| Subscribe to Mailing List: __ #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meriemdayday at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 16:58:42 2021 From: meriemdayday at gmail.com (Meriem Dayday) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 17:58:42 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Mike, Care to explain the meaning of that weird picture? Thank you Le mer. 14 juil. 2021 ? 15:47, Mike Silber a ?crit : > > > On 14 Jul 2021, at 16:22, Brian Sowers wrote: > > For AFRINIC to be able to operate under ?questionable circumstances? > without consequence save from the community board is quite difficult to > believe. There really needs to be more interaction between the operations > of AFRINIC and an independent inspecting agency. Recent decisions from the > AFRINIC board have been dubious at best and yet it continues to operate as > such. It has become clear whatever standard of accountability AFRINIC > ostensibly adheres to on paper is overlooked in practice. Either AFRINIC is > sorely misguided in understanding its own policy, or it is operating > according to their own best interests immune to any concept of > accountability. > > -Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: istockphoto-485866163-1024x1024.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 475203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dmurungi at wia.co.tz Wed Jul 14 17:09:41 2021 From: dmurungi at wia.co.tz (Murungi Daniel) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 20:09:41 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM In-Reply-To: References: <17a3d21fad1.bd552ba1206303.7060355078460728919@africaoncloud.net> <22919.1624534197@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <636429f7-5514-c858-25f0-f4cceff0e2a1@gmail.com> <0DE08D0A-EB4F-42FC-97D9-DEE405200AE6@delong.com> <686d2a2c-d78d-7054-092f-4548cc70e3c8@gmail.com> <852F78AE-B319-4207-BAFA-1131040B02A7@delong.com> <55bf2d30-3dbd-0910-98b9-dfd84ae31a7e@geier.ne.tz> <00A6C7DD-2B85-4625-BD76-5DD02BE75326@delong.com> <6f3f5119-b5a8-a18b-93ee-2d698403a15b@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Christian, I stand with everyone who is against IP leasing. Simply because other RIRs do it is not a valid reason for AFRINIC to adopt the same - pardon the language - bogus practice. All this copy and paste crap from other RIRs is detrimental to AFRINIC and hampers growth of Internet related services in the region. The primary purpose of the number resources is for them to be used as a fundamental tool for deploying and offering services within the AFRINIC region, period ! Directly monetizing the number resources adds no value to the region except to enrich the holder of the assigned resource. >>>> Many organizations rely on IP Leasing in order to acquire number resources quickly and affordably to meet their current and future needs. It is totally legit, especially during the IPv4 exhaustion phase, where resource scarcity represents a real issue for ISPs and network-holders in AFRINIC's service area. Legit in other RIRs that got the lion?s share of the number resources. Plus, this is ignorance and frankly laziness on the part of such organizations. The process of getting number resources from AFRINIC is fairly simple. In a nutshell - justify the need for the number resources and provide relevant org. documents. How hard is that? Regards, Murungi Daniel > On Jul 14, 2021, at 5:38 PM, Christian Orozco wrote: > > Hello Fernando, > > In these discussions, it is very important to maintain other's freedom to share their arguments. You may have laid out your own points (or bases), but it is also important to ask yourself if those are logical enough to be accepted as the "answer" to the crucial issue at hand. We can hardly find the true and exact answer to the arguments and that's why most people here want to hear from AFRINIC - to seek clarity and actually know its motivations. We are here exchanging points we find most reasonable just like you do. > > Also, you stated: "when someone is in defense of something they may depend on there is nothing can be said for them to be convinced, unfortunately." Don't you think that applies to you as well? Many relevant arguments for IP leasing have been made (i.e. how other RIRs allow it as well and how some African enterprises benefit from such IP services), but you still get to quickly dismiss IP leasing as something that's absurd. > > > > Respectfully, > Christian > > > > On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 8:36 PM Fernando Frediani > wrote: > What an enddless repetition of the same thing over and over oh dear ! > Not only me but othesr have mentioned several different basis for that throughout this conversation but it seems simply this is not accepted by some and they keep asking the same thing as maybe the only way to keep defending absurd stuff as IP Leasing as something "normal and acceptable". > If we reply again saying all the basis someone will ask "What is your basis?". When someone is in defense of something they may depend on there is nothing can be said for them to be convinced, unfortunately. > > Fernando > > Em 7/14/2021 6:05 AM, Owen DeLong escreveu: >> >> >>> On Jul 2, 2021, at 10:36 , Fernando Frediani > wrote: >>> >>> So they are relying on a wrong option which should never have relied. >>> >> What is your basis (specifically, section numbers please) in policy (CPM, RSA, or bylaws) for calling this ?wrong?? >>> If they have needs for IPv4 (as everybody else) and they cannot get these addresses directly from the RIR as per the current rules which apply equally to everybody they have the option to use Inter-RIR transfer policy available on all other RIRs. >>> >> But this option is not available to AFRINIC resource members at this time, so what should they do in this instance? >>> If these organizations are from outside Africa region then it is even worst they grab unused addressed that were assigned to a local company to use somewhere else out of the region. >>> >> It seems to me that this is a moral judgment based strictly on your own opinion with no basis in policy. If you have a basis in policy for this argument, please present it. >> Please be specific and cite the relevant sections of the governing document that you base your conclusion on. >>> Not everything that is useful or convenient to some is correct and as such should e stimulated and IP leasing mean the current holder doesn't justify for those addresses anymore, so either it gives it back to AfriNic or transfer them definitely. >>> >> Again, this is a value judgment you are making without any valid basis in policy. If you believe there is such a basis, then please provide specific citation(s) showing same. >> >> Otherwise, kindly talk about what you believe should be policy rather than stating it as if it is fact. >> >> AFRINIC has done enough making up policy as they go along. It?s time to follow the policies as written. If you don?t like the policies as written, then there?s a process for changing them and you are completely free to submit a policy proposal to do so. If you need help figuring out the process, let me know. I will happily help you even though I will likely oppose your policy. I am all for a thorough debate of this topic around an appropriate policy proposal so that the community can make an informed choice once and for all and reduce the ambiguities that have plagued us so far. >> >> Owen >> >>> Regards >>> Fernando >>> >>> On 02/07/2021 14:29, Mimi dy wrote: >>>> Hello Fernando, >>>> >>>> Many organizations rely on IP Leasing in order to acquire number resources quickly and affordably to meet their current and future needs. It is totally legit, especially during the IPv4 exhaustion phase, where resource scarcity represents a real issue for ISPs and network-holders in AFRINIC's service area. >>>> I find it absurd that you are arguing against IP leasing when it is a legal and accurate way to obtain IPs. Indeed, there are some malicious organizations out there misusing leased IPs, but that is certainly not the case for everyone, so no need to generalize. Consequently, you cannot really dismiss IP leasing using weak arguments as such. >>>> >>>> Since IP leasing is very helpful to numerous entities in the period of shortage of available IP addresses, and is certainly legal, I fail to understand why you are advocating against it. >>>> >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Le ven. 2 juil. 2021 ? 16:48, Fernando Frediani > a ?crit : >>>> Well, like it or not but having a customer that is in the leasing >>>> business may effectively change our opinion about some subject, even if >>>> personally you wish it may not to. >>>> >>>> Trying to find an exact 'ipsis literis' word in the CPM that fulfill or >>>> not your expectations may not always work. There is always room for some >>>> interpretation and staff is the one responsible to do that in this context. >>>> For the absurd leasing possibility is very simple: if leasing proposes >>>> cannot be used as a justification to receive a new block from the RIR >>>> why would it be after you receive it and missuse it for different >>>> proposes other than bring connectivity to your customers. In that sense >>>> I really hope staff stand strong in revoking resources that are being >>>> used for leasing proposes, different from what they have been justified >>>> originally and if necessary fight in courts of Mauritius to have that >>>> decision preserved. >>>> >>>> For out of the region usage there have been multiple people who showed >>>> that is not currently permitted. Maybe you don't agree with that but >>>> bottom line is that is what staff has been interpreting from the current >>>> rules backed by what some of us have put here based in previous messages. >>>> >>>> Want to use AfriNic resources in a different region ? Simply transfer >>>> them permanently using the soon-to-come Inter-RIR transfer policy and >>>> bound to the rules of the new RIR. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Fernando >>>> >>>> On 02/07/2021 04:46, Owen DeLong via RPD wrote: >>>> > Full disclosure: I don?t personally have a dog in this fight. I am personally >>>> > agnostic as to whether leasing should or should not be permitted in a >>>> > newly developed policy. >>>> > >>>> > I do have a client that I consult for which is in the leasing business. It is my >>>> > opinion that their leasing business is 100% compliant with policy as it is >>>> > written and that if the community doesn?t like that fact, the community can >>>> > and should certainly amend the policy to rectify the situation. >>>> > >>>> >> On Jun 29, 2021, at 03:08 , Frank Habicht > wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Hi, >>>> >> >>>> >> On 29/06/2021 12:01, Owen DeLong via RPD wrote: >>>> >>> nectivity customers or use out of the region as something "normal and >>>> >>> acceptable". >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Regardless of who does and does not benefit, the reality is that short >>>> >>> of an actual government with the ability to enforce its rules using >>>> >>> guns and prisons, people who can make a profit are going to do what >>>> >>> they are going to do. >>>> >> I need to break this down. >>>> >> I'm working in my $dayjob for one of those companies that are after >>>> >> $profit. What this company _did_ is subscribe to the methods and rules >>>> >> of a Mauritius company called AfriNIC, in order to get Internet >>>> >> Numbering Resources. And I think many of the AfriNIC members formally >>>> >> subscribed to these rules. (And the rules are subject to change >>>> >> according to PDP) >>>> >> >>>> >> These INR are provided to members per need and justification. Relatively >>>> >> recently additional rules came into force that limited each allocation >>>> >> to maximum /22 - this is how rules can change. >>>> >> >>>> >> INR are delegated to members that need them themselves, and AfriNIC >>>> >> calls these members "End-User" members. They are also delegated to >>>> >> members that provide internet access to respective customers, and >>>> >> AfriNIC calls these members "LIR" members. >>>> > You are close, but the term used in the bylaws is ?open system protocol >>>> > network services?. I am not sure why such awkward and broad language >>>> > was chosen, but that?s a much broader definition than ?internet access?. >>>> > >>>> > In the CPM, LIR is defined as ?An IR that receives allocations from an RIR and primarily >>>> > assigns address space to 'end-users?. LIRs are generally ISPs. Their customers are other >>>> > ISPs and possibly end-users. LIRs must be members of AFRINIC.? >>>> > >>>> > Again, there?s not a single word in that definition that ties it to connectivity >>>> > services or internet access. >>>> > >>>> >> I believe in all justifications for IPv4, LIR members request/require >>>> >> the addresses to address customers, or servers, or VMs that get >>>> >> connectivity services from the LIR member. And there is no problem with >>>> >> that. LIR is in the business of making profit, providing connectivity, >>>> >> hosting servers, services, needs IPs, gets IPs. >>>> > Certainly this is the prevalent model, whether or not it is 100% pervasive >>>> > I am not sure. >>>> > >>>> >> There is a big difference to the case where an LIR member >>>> >> - has IPv4 address space, >>>> >> - is not using it themselves, >>>> >> - not for connectivity (or hosting) customers >>>> >> and has the IPv4 space used by "customers" that are only getting the >>>> >> IPv4 space as a service - sold or leased. >>>> > Is there? So long as the customers in question are justifying the space to the >>>> > same standards that an end-user applying to the RIR would have to or to the >>>> > same standard that would be required if they were also getting connectivity >>>> > from the LIR, then what exactly is the difference? >>>> > >>>> > What if the LIR in question did announce the covering aggregates of space >>>> > they leased and provided some minimal connectivity to the customer in question? >>>> > Now they meet the definition you?ve provided above, but they?re not actually >>>> > moving packets because the more-specific being announced to the customer?s >>>> > higher bandwidth providers will win vs. the aggregate. >>>> > >>>> > Does removing this connectivity fig leaf really change the nature of the >>>> > assignment in a meaningful way? >>>> > >>>> >> Is that the purpose for which the IPv4 space was obtained and justified? >>>> > Since I don?t have access to anyone?s IPv4 justifications to AFRINIC in a >>>> > manner which would allow me to comment publicly, I?m going to skip this >>>> > question. Suffice it to say, I can imagine a number of ways in which this >>>> > is possible. >>>> > >>>> >> There are "rules" that say an LIR should notify when use of an IP block >>>> >> changes. >>>> > Yes. The rules are, however, ambiguous at best and it?s not clear at what >>>> > level of detail a ?change? is constituted nor is it clear whether an update >>>> > to whois is adequate notification in most circumstances. >>>> > >>>> >> I see a big difference between changes *within an LIR* and changes to >>>> >> *use the IP space outside the AfriNIC member LIR*. >>>> > So if I have space that was allocated to my LIR and I assigned it to >>>> > customer A who is using the space in their network (technically outside >>>> > of my LIR), but then they return the space when they get their own >>>> > block and become a BYOA customer, my assigning that space to customer >>>> > B for their use on their network (also outside my LIR) becomes a problem >>>> > or change in the usage exactly why? >>>> > >>>> >> With the first, I consider it generally accepted that justification remains. >>>> >> With the latter, I believe that the *LIR that subscribed to AfriNIC >>>> >> rules* has shown to no longer have the justification for these IPs for >>>> >> connectivity and hosting, including "PA" customers. >>>> > What if the justification in question was not ?connectivity and hosting?? >>>> > >>>> > What if the justification was ?Numbering hosts on customer networks?? >>>> > >>>> >> The reason for doing the latter is obviously $profit, and yes - some " >>>> >> are going to do what they are going to do ". >>>> > The reason for the former was obviously profit, too. Nobody is in business >>>> > to subsidize the benefits of others without making a profit. >>>> > >>>> >> And what this community allows them to get away with. >>>> > It?s not so much a question of ?get away with? as ?what the rules actually >>>> > say? from my perspective. You may wish to argue that the intent or even >>>> > the clear intent of the community is something else, but in reality, for rules to be >>>> > useful, one must consider what the rules actually say, and not the current >>>> > popular interpretation of intent around the rules. >>>> > >>>> > Making it up as we go along has become somewhat of an AFRINIC tradition >>>> > at this point, seemingly both in the staff actions and in the board, PDWG, >>>> > community, and various committees. >>>> > >>>> > There?s also a pretty strong history of doing so being the source of a great >>>> > many problems, so I continue to hope that we can learn from those mistakes >>>> > and start actually following the rules as they are written and making the >>>> > changes necessary through the proper processes when the rules do not >>>> > meet the perceived needs of the current situation. >>>> > >>>> >> To be Frank: I simply don't believe that >>>> >> AS212552 "BitCommand" in Armenia gets IP connectivity services from >>>> >> ... you know who. >>>> > Honestly, I don?t know who, but it?s easy enough to look up: >>>> > >>>> > https://bgp.he.net/AS212552#_irr >>>> > >>>> > Says that they get apparent transit from AS64515 and AS24940. >>>> > >>>> > This seems to be borne out by https://bgp.he.net/AS212552#_graph4 >>>> > >>>> >> In other continents / RIRs the IPv4 space is finished. Noone has any >>>> >> hope of justifying any with the RIR. Some have more than they need - >>>> >> give or sell it to others that have "a need" and the market can probably >>>> >> regulate that. >>>> > ARIN is still issuing /24s under NRPM section 4.10, so that?s not entirely >>>> > correct. >>>> > >>>> >> But AfriNIC still has and is distributing IPv4 - should it do so by >>>> >> "whoever pays most" or "everyone according to their need [upto a /22 >>>> >> ;-)]". Has it given IPv4 resources to members according to their >>>> >> respective (perceived) needs??? >>>> >> >>>> >> Wasn't one of the rules that the LIR was to use the IPs for the >>>> >> connectivity (or hosting) services? >>>> > I?ve reviewed the bylaws, the RSA, and the CPM pretty carefully. I couldn?t >>>> > find a connectivity requirement other than one that calls for the numbers >>>> > to be ?routed on the internet? (which, btw, is a unique requirement in >>>> > AFRINIC not present in other RIRs). >>>> > >>>> >> Are the rules still applicable? >>>> > The rules still apply as written, but that?s the real sticking point. Do we >>>> > want to focus on the common perception of what we think the rules >>>> > say (as you have done above) or do we want to review the rules as >>>> > they are written and call for the enforcement of those rules according >>>> > to a plain text interpretation of their actual content? >>>> > >>>> >> bit more below... >>>> >> >>>> >>> I?m not particularly happy about this reality, but I do recognize that >>>> >>> it is, in fact, reality and I?m not in favor of giving RIRs guns or >>>> >>> the ability to incarcerate people. Contracts only get you so far and >>>> >>> clever people can always find ways to comply with the letter of a >>>> >>> contract while circumventing the other party's intent if they want to >>>> >>> try hard enough. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> So no, these are not ?nice words?, they are the recognition of >>>> >>> unpleasant and inconvenient truths that like it or not, we are faced >>>> >>> with new realities, economic, technical, and legal. >>>> >> Is one of these realities that an LIR got resources from AfriNIC for >>>> >> providing connectivity (or hosting) services, and now these are no >>>> >> longer in place? >>>> > I have no knowledge of such a situation, but in truth I have not read >>>> > the original justification for the space issued to the LIR I think you >>>> > are referring to. >>>> > >>>> >>> In many countries legal frameworks the lack of a transfer policy >>>> >>> allowing registrants to monetize the transfer of their registrations >>>> >>> could be considered either restraint of trade or an >>>> >>> anti-trust/anti-competitive matter. >>>> >> the fact is that these numbers should be unique and centrally managed. >>>> >> These anti-trust lawyers can send a better proposal for managing them. >>>> > The ability to sell one?s registration to another does not in any way impinge >>>> > the central management of numbers for uniqueness. >>>> > >>>> >> The question is whether "according to need" or "according to whoever >>>> >> offers more $$". >>>> > This assumes that monetized transfers and/or leasing cannot be done >>>> > on the basis of need, which is a false premise. To the best of my knowledge, >>>> > Larus is quite scrupulous and detailed in collecting need justification from >>>> > customers prior to issuing addresses to them. That is certainly the written >>>> > company policy and has been the case with each and every recipient >>>> > case I have been involved with in my consulting for them. >>>> > >>>> >> Should I be allowed to "buy" a /16 from AfriNIC, put it in a safe, sell >>>> >> it 3 years later for $profit ??? >>>> > No. The rules prohibit you putting it in a safe and not routing it. Also, you >>>> > aren?t buying the /16, you are paying a fee for the service of recording and >>>> > maintaining the registration of the space. You can?t sell the integers, but >>>> > selling the registration of the integers has become common practice >>>> > worldwide whether you like it or not. >>>> > >>>> >> Is that the purpose for which AfriNIC got the /8's from IANA? >>>> > Things have changed since the IANA was issuing /8s. The world has changed. >>>> > Many of the /8s were issued by the IANA in order to support Email, FTP, and >>>> > NNTP. I suspect there are very few servers running FTP or NNTP these days, >>>> > and while EMAIL is still a pervasive technology (for better or worse), it is not >>>> > a significant fraction of internet traffic. >>>> > >>>> > Very few of the /8s issued by IANA were issued during a time when streaming >>>> > video could have been considered as a purpose for issuing them, yet today >>>> > it is probably the largest consumer of bandwidth on the internet by far. >>>> > >>>> > Should we require all of the RIRs that have issued space to Netflix after >>>> > IANA runout to reclaim and return that space to IANA and rejustify it because >>>> > streaming video was not the purpose for which it was issued? >>>> > >>>> > I think not. >>>> > >>>> >> PS: all or most questions are serious. answers will help. >>>> > All of the answers were serious as well. I?d expect nothing less from >>>> > someone of your stature in the community. >>>> > >>>> > I hope the answers are helpful. >>>> > >>>> > Owen >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > RPD mailing list >>>> > RPD at afrinic.net >>>> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> RPD mailing list >>>> RPD at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd >>> _______________________________________________ >>> RPD mailing list >>> RPD at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd >> > _______________________________________________ > RPD mailing list > RPD at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd > _______________________________________________ > RPD mailing list > RPD at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 23:11:43 2021 From: ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com (Anthony Ubah) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 19:11:43 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> References: <17aa2aa9374.106816b44304773.1469023170940103605@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: This is an interesting turn of events. It's impressive that one party has come to share details with the community, with substantial documentation to clear their name. Unfortunately, the deafening silence from AFRINIC trailling this does great disservice to the body and the community at large. Having swiftly announced the supreme court's ruling, AFRINIC is expected to in same pace, and manner update the community as well. Why haven't they? What is going on? Were protocols properly followed? Were mistakes made? Dear Afrinic, Update the community. This silence doesn't augur well for this organization, and those saddled with the responsibilities to handle affairs. There is need for transparency, because when sh**t hits the fan, the splashed on everyone. Regards, Anthony On Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 9:43 PM tech wrote: > This letter is a follow-up to the unfortunate incident arising from the > actions taken by AFRINIC (African Network Information Centre), including > terminating our (Cloud Innovation Ltd) membership and reclaiming our number > resources which we consider to have been totally unnecessary, unreasonable, > and unjust. The action has not caused only serious damage to Cloud > Innovation and hundreds of its clients' businesses, but also to hundreds of > millions of end-users who were potentially endangered at the same time. > > > > We are pleased to announce that urgent interim relief has been granted > to Cloud Innovation by the Honourable Judge in Chambers of the Supreme > Court of Mauritius( herewith attached) to prevent AFRINIC from reclaiming > our number resources in such illegal manner. As a result of which, Cloud > Innovation will now be in a position to resume business as normal until the > issues are resolved before the competent courts.. > > > > For the sake of clarity and transparency, we would share with you as set > out below the background which led to the current state of affairs: > > > > - AFRINIC issued a letter to Cloud Innovation on June 23, 2020, > accusing Cloud Innovation of policy violations. AFRINIC threatened to take > actions and demanded an immediate response within 14 days. Despite the > short notice, Cloud Innovation investigated AFRINIC's accusations > carefully. Cloud Innovation did not find any policy violations of its own > but only AFRINIC's own misinterpretation of its policy document and errors > in understanding the nature of BGP. Cloud Innovation duly issued a response > on 13 July 2020, within the deadline set by AFRINIC to explain the > misunderstanding of AFRINIC?s own documents and erroneous assertions > regarding routing. > > > > - After eight months, AFRINIC issued a letter on 10 March 2021 ( > being the first day Mauritius went into a second national lockdown due to > COVID-19) to Cloud Innovation, raising similar alleged breaches as those > alleged in June 2020 but with the following warning note:: > > > > *To address the aforementioned issues, Cloud Innovation Ltd is hereby most > formally required to promptly and accurately submit its ?change request? in > compliance with Clauses 4(a) and 2(d) of the RSA, as well as ensure full > compliance with AFRINIC. The ?change request? must* > > *include:* > > *I. Detailed utilisation information for all the aforementioned IPv4 > prefixes including the services for which the resources are being used and > country of service origin.* > > *II. Planned utilisation of your remaining IPv4 space for the next 8 > months* > > *III.Your ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by > the close of business.* > > *AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and will in > its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well as to > proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to Cloud > Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be held > liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the present > notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance thereof. Your > ?change request?, if any, should reach AFRINIC by 12-04-2021, by the close > of business.AFRINIC shall consider the merits of your request, if any, and > will in its sole discretion determine whether to terminate the RSA as well > as to proceed with the reclaiming of the IPv4 Number Resources allocated to > Cloud Innovation Ltd. You are further informed that AFRINIC shall not be > held liable for any loss or damage of whatever nature arising out of the > present notice or any action that AFRINIC may take in accordance *thereof. > > > > The false accusations made by AFRINIC and our response/views are > attached in a separate document (named:Chronology) for the benefit of all > the community.. > > > > - As the 3rd largest member of AFRINIC, Cloud Innovation serves > hundreds of millions of end-users through hundreds of telecoms and ISPs > around the world. The services, such as hosting websites, counts for > over 1.5 million websites hosted by Cloud Innovation's IP alone. Thus, > there is no way, especially with the size of Cloud Innovation, to fully and > wholly satisfy AFRINIC's request within the timeframe it provided. With the > real threat of membership termination and hundreds of millions of users' > connectivity on the line, Cloud Innovation was left with no option but to > seek the mercy of the court in Mauritius during a period of lockdown with > limited resources. An interim order of injunction was therefore issued by > the Mauritius court on April 7,2021 to protect the interests of end-users > and to forbid AFRINIC from acting irrationally. > > > > > > - By virtue of a judgment issued on the evening of 7 July 2021, > the said injunction was lifted on the basis of a mere legal technicality > basis, which was partially caused by the inability to provide a power of > attorney to our lawyers in Mauritius during the total lockdown of > Mauritius, a direct result of AFRINIC releasing such a letter to us on the > first day of the Mauritius lockdown. > > > > - In order to protect our interests and the hundreds of millions of > users of number resources registered to us, we took immediate action by > filing an appeal against the judgment on the very next day.. > > > > - In order to safeguard its interests, Cloud Innovation had to > again seek urgent relief before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. By > virtue of an interim order of injunction issued on 13 July 2021, AFRINIC > has been restrained and prohibited from terminating our membership and > reclaiming our number resources. The said proceedings are now pending > before the Supreme Court of Mauritius. > > > > - We welcome the urgent intervention of the Supreme Court of > Mauritius for interim relief in order to protect our rights as a member. . > We would like to inform those concerned that the operations of our number > resources will revert to normal at the earliest as AFRINIC is under an > obligation to comply with the Judge?s Order as attached. > > > > - We wish to emphasise that as an AFRINIC member in good standing, > we consistently abide by their policy and strive to contribute to the > community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take any > action against AFRINIC but are obligated to take the appropriate measures > to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds of > millions of end-users. > > > > - We reserve full and absolute legal rights and remedies in respect > to AFRINIC's actions against us. > > > > We would also like to clarify that as the NRO has stated in their letter, > "All RIRs, on occasion, face allegations of errors in implementation of > policy or agreements, and such disputes, being routine in nature are best > handled by the individual RIR and/or its community ", such routine > disagreement (mostly in all the other RIRs, or AFRINIC before this > management) is sorted by merely communicating between the tech team and the > registration services department of the respective RIR. It has never come > to such drastic actions before, like the RIR threatening and endangering > the very stability of the Internet. > > > > We trust the above has shed some light on the matter for all those > concerned. We are grateful for the continued belief and support we have > received from all of you. > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 23:32:21 2021 From: ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com (Anthony Ubah) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 19:32:21 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Where is decorum in all these emails? These queries have nothing to do with this mailing list and should be shoved elsewhere. A private email is a private email, and sharing such is very unethical, and can be considered a breach of privacy. Why it is being pushed into the open in this case beats my imagination, when the message contains nothing which can be considered escalation worthy. Can the chair moderate this mailing list? Off topics should be moved to other lists, so that those making private queries can have a field day to delve in and satisfy their curiosity, while the rest can focus on what counts. @Marcus K. G. Adomey you are welcomed to take this query elsewhere, feel free to share you thoughts and findings when you are done. Kind regards, Anthony On Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 8:29 AM Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote: > Hi Owen, > > Why have you BCC me the email you sent to Daniel? Why can't you send your > response to the entire mailing list? Is there something hidden in this > private email and you would not want the others to know about? The point > being discuss is of interest and we need to know. > > Please let us be transparent and open to the PDWG. > > Thanks, > > > > Marcus > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Owen DeLong > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 14, 2021 10:56 AM > *To:* DANIEL NANGHAKA ; Marcus K. G. Adomey < > madomey at hotmail.com> > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? > > Daniel, > > Responding in private since this is off-topic for the list. > > This really has nothing to do with the AFRNIC PDP and has to do with > things I want to be able to say and advocate for in the ARIN region. > > There is no conflict between my activities in AFRINIC PDP and my role on > the ARIN AC. > > As to my interest in the AFRINIC PDP, you should note that I?m also at > various times active in APNIC, LACNIC, RIPE, and ARIN PDPs. > > I make my living as a consultant and I have at various times had clients > all over the world and some clients with global networks. As a result, I am > often asked to pay attention to the PDP in those regions. > > I am also someone with a strong sense of community service. As such, since > I am obliged to monitor the process for my client(s) anyway, I will often > work towards what I perceive as the best interests of the community > (regardless of whether it is best for my client or not) and I will often > advocate as such. In general, I select clients who are generally > ideologically aligned with me. > > One exception is Cloud Innovation. While I am not ideologically 100% in > agreement with them and do not necessarily favor the current state of > policy which benefits them, I am even more concerned that the RIRs cannot > simply make up policy or randomly interpret policy to suit their > ideological goals and must, instead, follow the policy as written until it > is amended through the proper community process. > > AFRINIC has a long history of corruption, election irregularities, > financial misdeeds, and failure to properly follow its own rules in both > its governance process and in its management of the IP registry database. > As such, I have maintained a high level of interest in AFRINIC?s doings in > an effort to do what I can to help resolve those issues. > > Owen > > On Jul 14, 2021, at 03:38 , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > > Dear Marcus, > > I strongly agree, that there are policy updates from the other RIRs, what > is catching my interest at the moment is that Owen has been one of the very > active participants on PDP and I believe AFRINIC has a high level of > freedom of expression. > When he gives a reason that he wants to have greater freedom and > flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of > which would be considered a conflict of interest with his role as an > Advisory Council member. I begin to realise that Owen could have been > having a high conflict of interest which conflicted with his position on > the AC. > > Dear Owen, > Owen, kindly advise how we could deal with the Conflict of Interest in the > PDP as you state it clearly in your reason. Furthermore, I still have > question marks as to why the AFRINIC PDP is of high interest to you - yet > the Policies discussed are for the development of the Internet in Africa. > Is something wrong with the AFRINIC PDP that stimulates high interest for > your participation in AFRINIC Process that the Africa participants have > failed to solve which requires your expertise? > > Is ARIN more superior than AFRINIC? > > Thanks > Daniel > > > ? > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:26, Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: > > Dear Owen and PDWG, > > I don?t think this is an off-topic. There are reasons why we always have > session on ?policy update from other RIRs? at every PPM?it?s like we care > for what happened at ARIN PDP through its AC and possible impact on our > PDP and related issues > > In response to the statement below, one would like to know why is Owen > talking about ? was not forced to resign?? Nobody said so AFAIK, how > come the position at ARIN constitute restraint to speech and why only now? > > And question for this community is how do we deal with conflict of > interest in our PDP? > > Thanks > > > > Marcus > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:03:19 PM > *To:* Arnaud AMELINA > *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC ; > AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? > > Apologies to the list for this off-topic posting, but given the > unwarranted attention already paid to the > matter and the escalating level of speculation, I beg your indulgence. > This will (hopefully) be the > only post I make on the matter here. > > For clarity: > > 1. I chose to resign my position on the ARIN AC. I was not forced to > resign. I did not have to resign. > So your speculation is neither accurate, nor appropriate and the > implications are offensive. > > 2. I chose to resign in order to have greater freedom and flexibility to > advocate for changes in the > internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of > interest with my role as > an Advisory Council member. While I have been outspoken by most standards, > the reality is > that my position on the AC did serve as a significant restraint to my > speech in many cases. > The time has come where I felt the need to remove that restraint in order > to best serve the > community. > > Reading anything other than the above into it would be a mistake and > further speculation is very > unlikely to produce any accurate conclusions. > > If anyone has questions about my resignation, they are free to ask me > directly, but this really is > not an appropriate topic for this list. > > Owen > > > On Jul 13, 2021, at 05:56 , Arnaud AMELINA wrote: > > @Taiwo > > We all would like to know why Owen, so active in our PDP, has to resign > from his position at ARIN AC which serves in an advisory capacity to the > Board of Trustees on Internet number resource policy and related matters. > > -- > Arnaud > > Le lun. 12 juil. 2021 ? 12:37, Taiwo Oye a > ?crit : > > ?Benjilo. > How is this of concern to you or to any of the members of the afrinic > community. Kindly direct your question to the appropriate quarters - > owen at delong.com - > > > On Jul 11, 2021, at 19:27, Paschal Ochang wrote: > > ?Great question Daniel. > > On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > > Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? > > On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: > > Hello > > Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP > resigned from ARIN AC? > > https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 > > > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > -- > Kind regards, > > Paschal. > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > RPD mailing list > RPD at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Wed Jul 14 23:58:23 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 16:58:23 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <73235.1626307103@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: >I would like to appreciate the level of transparency that is being put >forward here by Cloud Innovation. I also appreciate the additional information, even as I marvel at the apparent fact that although Cloud Innovation is currently still engaged in litigation before the Supreme Court of Mauritius, the so-called "sub judice" rule apparently does not apply to either it or this case. I am jealous. I will be asking Cloud Innovation how I also may obtain an exemption from this Mauritian legal restriction, so that I also can henceorth feel free to comment on these matters without fear of being extradited to and/or incarcerated within Mauritius. Certainly, even here in the United States, those of us who are outspoken on such matters must constantly be concerned that undercover Mauritian secret agents may be lurking behind any light pole, just waiting to grab us and wisk us off in the dark of night to a dank Mauritian prison. This kind of thing is not without precedent: https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/manhattan-us-attorney-announces-kidnapping-conspiracy-charges-against-iranian Regards, rfg P.S. I am pleased to see such vigorous debate on these weighty matters, especially as we seem to have been joined in this discussion by so many new friends with @gmail.com addresses and not terribly well specified affiliations. From owen at delong.com Thu Jul 15 00:08:32 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 17:08:32 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Once again, list, I apologize? I did not Bcc it to anyone. I did send it only to Daniel and to you. The fact that you know I sent it to Daniel is proof that it was not a BCC and that you apparently do not understand how email works. Please (re)read RFCs 821, 822, and 1123. Try to understand them this time. As to why, because while you may be a huge fan of mine with a distorted view of the importance of my actions to the entire community, the reality is that this is a fairly mundane action I took in America regarding a leadership position in an RIR that has no jurisdiction anywhere near Africa and that it has no impact or effect on anyone in this community that I can think of. In short it simply isn?t relevant and isn?t a valid subject for this list. Please do tell what it is that you think is of interest to the community here and what you believe you need to know that I have not already answered? It?s not that I?m trying to hide anything, it?s just that I am at a loss to figure out what you are so interested in. If more than 5 people express interest in the answer to your question, then I will answer it publicly. Otherwise, I will take it as an indication that I am correct that it is off topic and uninteresting except to you and respond privately. Owen > On Jul 14, 2021, at 05:26 , Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote: > > Hi Owen, > > Why have you BCC me the email you sent to Daniel? Why can't you send your response to the entire mailing list? Is there something hidden in this private email and you would not want the others to know about? The point being discuss is of interest and we need to know. > > Please let us be transparent and open to the PDWG. > > Thanks, > > > > Marcus > > > > > From: Owen DeLong > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 10:56 AM > To: DANIEL NANGHAKA ; Marcus K. G. Adomey > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? > > Daniel, > > Responding in private since this is off-topic for the list. > > This really has nothing to do with the AFRNIC PDP and has to do with things I want to be able to say and advocate for in the ARIN region. > > There is no conflict between my activities in AFRINIC PDP and my role on the ARIN AC. > > As to my interest in the AFRINIC PDP, you should note that I?m also at various times active in APNIC, LACNIC, RIPE, and ARIN PDPs. > > I make my living as a consultant and I have at various times had clients all over the world and some clients with global networks. As a result, I am often asked to pay attention to the PDP in those regions. > > I am also someone with a strong sense of community service. As such, since I am obliged to monitor the process for my client(s) anyway, I will often work towards what I perceive as the best interests of the community (regardless of whether it is best for my client or not) and I will often advocate as such. In general, I select clients who are generally ideologically aligned with me. > > One exception is Cloud Innovation. While I am not ideologically 100% in agreement with them and do not necessarily favor the current state of policy which benefits them, I am even more concerned that the RIRs cannot simply make up policy or randomly interpret policy to suit their ideological goals and must, instead, follow the policy as written until it is amended through the proper community process. > > AFRINIC has a long history of corruption, election irregularities, financial misdeeds, and failure to properly follow its own rules in both its governance process and in its management of the IP registry database. As such, I have maintained a high level of interest in AFRINIC?s doings in an effort to do what I can to help resolve those issues. > > Owen > >> On Jul 14, 2021, at 03:38 , DANIEL NANGHAKA > wrote: >> >> Dear Marcus, >> >> I strongly agree, that there are policy updates from the other RIRs, what is catching my interest at the moment is that Owen has been one of the very active participants on PDP and I believe AFRINIC has a high level of freedom of expression. >> When he gives a reason that he wants to have greater freedom and flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of interest with his role as an Advisory Council member. I begin to realise that Owen could have been having a high conflict of interest which conflicted with his position on the AC. >> >> Dear Owen, >> Owen, kindly advise how we could deal with the Conflict of Interest in the PDP as you state it clearly in your reason. Furthermore, I still have question marks as to why the AFRINIC PDP is of high interest to you - yet the Policies discussed are for the development of the Internet in Africa. Is something wrong with the AFRINIC PDP that stimulates high interest for your participation in AFRINIC Process that the Africa participants have failed to solve which requires your expertise? >> >> Is ARIN more superior than AFRINIC? >> >> Thanks >> Daniel >> >> >> ? >> >> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:26, Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: >> Dear Owen and PDWG, >> >> I don?t think this is an off-topic. There are reasons why we always have session on ?policy update from other RIRs? at every PPM?it?s like we care for what happened at ARIN PDP through its AC and possible impact on our PDP and related issues >> >> In response to the statement below, one would like to know why is Owen talking about ? was not forced to resign?? Nobody said so AFAIK, how come the position at ARIN constitute restraint to speech and why only now? >> >> And question for this community is how do we deal with conflict of interest in our PDP? >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Marcus >> >> >> From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:03:19 PM >> To: Arnaud AMELINA > >> Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC >; AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List > >> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? >> >> Apologies to the list for this off-topic posting, but given the unwarranted attention already paid to the >> matter and the escalating level of speculation, I beg your indulgence. This will (hopefully) be the >> only post I make on the matter here. >> >> For clarity: >> >> 1. I chose to resign my position on the ARIN AC. I was not forced to resign. I did not have to resign. >> So your speculation is neither accurate, nor appropriate and the implications are offensive. >> >> 2. I chose to resign in order to have greater freedom and flexibility to advocate for changes in the >> internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of interest with my role as >> an Advisory Council member. While I have been outspoken by most standards, the reality is >> that my position on the AC did serve as a significant restraint to my speech in many cases. >> The time has come where I felt the need to remove that restraint in order to best serve the >> community. >> >> Reading anything other than the above into it would be a mistake and further speculation is very >> unlikely to produce any accurate conclusions. >> >> If anyone has questions about my resignation, they are free to ask me directly, but this really is >> not an appropriate topic for this list. >> >> Owen >> >> >>> On Jul 13, 2021, at 05:56 , Arnaud AMELINA > wrote: >>> >>> @Taiwo >>> >>> We all would like to know why Owen, so active in our PDP, has to resign from his position at ARIN AC which serves in an advisory capacity to the Board of Trustees on Internet number resource policy and related matters. >>> >>> -- >>> Arnaud >>> >>> Le lun. 12 juil. 2021 ? 12:37, Taiwo Oye > a ?crit : >>> ?Benjilo. >>> How is this of concern to you or to any of the members of the afrinic community. Kindly direct your question to the appropriate quarters - owen at delong.com - >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 11, 2021, at 19:27, Paschal Ochang > wrote: >>>> >>>> ?Great question Daniel. >>>> >>>> On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA > wrote: >>>> Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: >>>> Hello >>>> >>>> Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP resigned from ARIN AC? >>>> >>>> https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Marcus >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kind regards, >>>> Paschal. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> _______________________________________________ >>> RPD mailing list >>> RPD at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Thu Jul 15 09:00:15 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 02:00:15 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC continued failure to comply with court order Message-ID: <0CDA286E-EDB9-4399-9DC6-D3624A7603D1@delong.com> While it took AFRINIC very little time to process the board action on July 8, 2021, despite a court order on July 13 and a very solid confirmation of that order this morning, AFRINIC still hasn?t managed to reverse their adverse actions and remains in violation of said court order. As of 12:50 PM July 15, 2021, our whois entries remain tagged with the termination message and with AFRINIC?s information. Our My AFRINIC account still has not been restored. Our RPKI updates remain unprocessed. AFRINIC has had more than 48 hours since the initial order to restore our data and more than 2 hours since the confirming order this morning. How come they are able to break things so quickly, yet show such foot-dragging when it comes time to fix things? Regardless of what you think of Cloud Innovation, surely AFRINIC?s refusal to follow the law and comply with a court order on a timely basis must cause great concerns for this community. Owen From owen at delong.com Thu Jul 15 09:20:14 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 02:20:14 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <73235.1626307103@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <73235.1626307103@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <337009E4-C17E-4215-82BD-D9F753831613@delong.com> > On Jul 14, 2021, at 16:58 , Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > In message > DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > >> I would like to appreciate the level of transparency that is being put >> forward here by Cloud Innovation. > > I also appreciate the additional information, even as I marvel at the > apparent fact that although Cloud Innovation is currently still engaged > in litigation before the Supreme Court of Mauritius, the so-called > "sub judice" rule apparently does not apply to either it or this case. The ?sub judice? rule was temporarily not in effect while the case was dismissed until such time as the appeal was accepted. This created a window during which we could disclose certain factual information. The ?sub judice? rule only applies while there is an active case that is actually ?sub judice? (which means ?under the consideration of the court? basically). When AFRINIC succeeded in getting the case dismissed, it stopped being ?sub judice? until such time as the judge ruled to reinstate the injunction pending the appeal. Owen From eddy at afrinic.net Thu Jul 15 09:29:23 2021 From: eddy at afrinic.net (Eddy Kayihura) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 13:29:23 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Compliance with Supreme Court Order Message-ID: <1A46BED2-97B1-4D0B-B6EE-6F6161959D0E@afrinic.net> Dear Colleagues, This is to inform you that the Supreme Court of Mauritius has, on this day 15 July 2021, ordered that AFRINIC reinstates the membership status of Cloud Innovation Ltd until the Court of Civil Appeal?s determination of the appeal lodged by Cloud Innovation Ltd against the judgment in favour of AFRINIC, delivered on 7 July 2021. Our Team is currently in the process of implementing the reversal action that will be completed within the coming hours. Kind regards, Eddy Kayihura Chief Executive Officer AFRINIC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Thu Jul 15 09:36:00 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 02:36:00 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: Compliance with Supreme Court Order References: <1A46BED2-97B1-4D0B-B6EE-6F6161959D0E@afrinic.net> Message-ID: <9E15FBB1-BCE5-486D-B005-01075271D297@delong.com> In fact, the order was issued on July 13th, which required reversal and attendance at a hearing in chambers today (July 15). AFRINIC failed (refused?) to comply with the July 13th order pending the outcome of the hearing this morning. While it took AFRINIC very little time to do so much damage to Cloud Innovation?s WHOIS and other records, for some reason it is taking days (2 days since July 13th already plus the hours from when the hearing ended before 11AM today until now) plus some additional hours according to Eddy below? Why so much longer to fix than to break? Owen > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Eddy Kayihura > Subject: [Community-Discuss] Compliance with Supreme Court Order > Date: July 15, 2021 at 02:29:23 PDT > To: Community Discuss > > Dear Colleagues, > > This is to inform you that the Supreme Court of Mauritius has, on this day 15 July 2021, ordered that AFRINIC reinstates the membership status of Cloud Innovation Ltd until the Court of Civil Appeal?s determination of the appeal lodged by Cloud Innovation Ltd against the judgment in favour of AFRINIC, delivered on 7 July 2021. > > Our Team is currently in the process of implementing the reversal action that will be completed within the coming hours. > > Kind regards, > > Eddy Kayihura > Chief Executive Officer > AFRINIC > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From madomey at hotmail.com Thu Jul 15 18:54:26 2021 From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 18:54:26 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Owen. Interesting that one must get a petition signed by 5 people for you to response to a such easy inquiry. Your private mails did not say anything beyond what you publicly said and which triggered my follow on points. As we all participate in Policy development as ? individual ? ? one need to know where are the possible or perceived conflicts of Interest coming from and why it was not dealt with according to CoI policy What is seen as Conflict over there can also be a conflict here and best practices call for these to be disclosed. Marcus ________________________________ From: Owen DeLong Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2021 12:08:32 AM To: Marcus K. G. Adomey Cc: DANIEL NANGHAKA ; AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List ; community-discuss at afrinic.net Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? Once again, list, I apologize? I did not Bcc it to anyone. I did send it only to Daniel and to you. The fact that you know I sent it to Daniel is proof that it was not a BCC and that you apparently do not understand how email works. Please (re)read RFCs 821, 822, and 1123. Try to understand them this time. As to why, because while you may be a huge fan of mine with a distorted view of the importance of my actions to the entire community, the reality is that this is a fairly mundane action I took in America regarding a leadership position in an RIR that has no jurisdiction anywhere near Africa and that it has no impact or effect on anyone in this community that I can think of. In short it simply isn?t relevant and isn?t a valid subject for this list. Please do tell what it is that you think is of interest to the community here and what you believe you need to know that I have not already answered? It?s not that I?m trying to hide anything, it?s just that I am at a loss to figure out what you are so interested in. If more than 5 people express interest in the answer to your question, then I will answer it publicly. Otherwise, I will take it as an indication that I am correct that it is off topic and uninteresting except to you and respond privately. Owen On Jul 14, 2021, at 05:26 , Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: Hi Owen, Why have you BCC me the email you sent to Daniel? Why can't you send your response to the entire mailing list? Is there something hidden in this private email and you would not want the others to know about? The point being discuss is of interest and we need to know. Please let us be transparent and open to the PDWG. Thanks, Marcus ________________________________ From: Owen DeLong > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 10:56 AM To: DANIEL NANGHAKA >; Marcus K. G. Adomey > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? Daniel, Responding in private since this is off-topic for the list. This really has nothing to do with the AFRNIC PDP and has to do with things I want to be able to say and advocate for in the ARIN region. There is no conflict between my activities in AFRINIC PDP and my role on the ARIN AC. As to my interest in the AFRINIC PDP, you should note that I?m also at various times active in APNIC, LACNIC, RIPE, and ARIN PDPs. I make my living as a consultant and I have at various times had clients all over the world and some clients with global networks. As a result, I am often asked to pay attention to the PDP in those regions. I am also someone with a strong sense of community service. As such, since I am obliged to monitor the process for my client(s) anyway, I will often work towards what I perceive as the best interests of the community (regardless of whether it is best for my client or not) and I will often advocate as such. In general, I select clients who are generally ideologically aligned with me. One exception is Cloud Innovation. While I am not ideologically 100% in agreement with them and do not necessarily favor the current state of policy which benefits them, I am even more concerned that the RIRs cannot simply make up policy or randomly interpret policy to suit their ideological goals and must, instead, follow the policy as written until it is amended through the proper community process. AFRINIC has a long history of corruption, election irregularities, financial misdeeds, and failure to properly follow its own rules in both its governance process and in its management of the IP registry database. As such, I have maintained a high level of interest in AFRINIC?s doings in an effort to do what I can to help resolve those issues. Owen On Jul 14, 2021, at 03:38 , DANIEL NANGHAKA > wrote: Dear Marcus, I strongly agree, that there are policy updates from the other RIRs, what is catching my interest at the moment is that Owen has been one of the very active participants on PDP and I believe AFRINIC has a high level of freedom of expression. When he gives a reason that he wants to have greater freedom and flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of interest with his role as an Advisory Council member. I begin to realise that Owen could have been having a high conflict of interest which conflicted with his position on the AC. Dear Owen, Owen, kindly advise how we could deal with the Conflict of Interest in the PDP as you state it clearly in your reason. Furthermore, I still have question marks as to why the AFRINIC PDP is of high interest to you - yet the Policies discussed are for the development of the Internet in Africa. Is something wrong with the AFRINIC PDP that stimulates high interest for your participation in AFRINIC Process that the Africa participants have failed to solve which requires your expertise? Is ARIN more superior than AFRINIC? Thanks Daniel [https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=aZG5kYW5uYW5nQGdtYWlsLmNvbQ%3D%3D&type=zerocontent&guid=a9e695cc-c10a-4179-9b43-33032923c218]? On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:26, Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: Dear Owen and PDWG, I don?t think this is an off-topic. There are reasons why we always have session on ?policy update from other RIRs? at every PPM?it?s like we care for what happened at ARIN PDP through its AC and possible impact on our PDP and related issues In response to the statement below, one would like to know why is Owen talking about ? was not forced to resign?? Nobody said so AFAIK, how come the position at ARIN constitute restraint to speech and why only now? And question for this community is how do we deal with conflict of interest in our PDP? Thanks Marcus ________________________________ From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:03:19 PM To: Arnaud AMELINA > Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC >; AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? Apologies to the list for this off-topic posting, but given the unwarranted attention already paid to the matter and the escalating level of speculation, I beg your indulgence. This will (hopefully) be the only post I make on the matter here. For clarity: 1. I chose to resign my position on the ARIN AC. I was not forced to resign. I did not have to resign. So your speculation is neither accurate, nor appropriate and the implications are offensive. 2. I chose to resign in order to have greater freedom and flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of interest with my role as an Advisory Council member. While I have been outspoken by most standards, the reality is that my position on the AC did serve as a significant restraint to my speech in many cases. The time has come where I felt the need to remove that restraint in order to best serve the community. Reading anything other than the above into it would be a mistake and further speculation is very unlikely to produce any accurate conclusions. If anyone has questions about my resignation, they are free to ask me directly, but this really is not an appropriate topic for this list. Owen On Jul 13, 2021, at 05:56 , Arnaud AMELINA > wrote: @Taiwo We all would like to know why Owen, so active in our PDP, has to resign from his position at ARIN AC which serves in an advisory capacity to the Board of Trustees on Internet number resource policy and related matters. -- Arnaud Le lun. 12 juil. 2021 ? 12:37, Taiwo Oye > a ?crit : ?Benjilo. How is this of concern to you or to any of the members of the afrinic community. Kindly direct your question to the appropriate quarters - owen at delong.com - On Jul 11, 2021, at 19:27, Paschal Ochang > wrote: ?Great question Daniel. On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA > wrote: Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: Hello Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP resigned from ARIN AC? https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 Marcus _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- Kind regards, Paschal. _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ RPD mailing list RPD at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jul 15 20:33:05 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 13:33:05 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <337009E4-C17E-4215-82BD-D9F753831613@delong.com> Message-ID: <77507.1626381185@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message <337009E4-C17E-4215-82BD-D9F753831613 at delong.com>, Owen DeLong wrote: >The "sub judice" rule was temporarily not in effect >while the case was dismissed >until such time as the appeal was accepted. This created a window during >which we could disclose certain factual information. > >The "sub judice" rule only applies while there is an >active case that is actually "sub judice" (which means >"under the consideration of the court" basically). >When AFRINIC succeeded in getting the case dismissed, it stopped being >"sub judice" until such time as the judge ruled to >reinstate the injunction pending >the appeal. That's a very interesting legal theory Owen. May I quote you? Regards, rfg From yakmutd at googlemail.com Thu Jul 15 20:42:56 2021 From: yakmutd at googlemail.com (Daniel Yakmut) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 21:42:56 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Marcus, I thought we put in "co-chairs" to regulate the activities of the PWDG, but I am worried that when it was recommended that this discussion should be offlist, you are still adamant. Can you also declare what is your personal interest. Because, the matter your pursuing is of no relevance to the community. I think you should.let go. Simply, Daniel On Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 7:59 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote: > Hi Owen. > > Interesting that one must get a petition signed by 5 people for you to > response to a such easy inquiry. > > Your private mails did not say anything beyond what you publicly said and > which triggered my follow on points. > > As we all participate in Policy development as ? individual ? ? one need > to know where are the possible or perceived conflicts of Interest coming > from and why it was not dealt with according to CoI policy > > What is seen as Conflict over there can also be a conflict here and best > practices call for these to be disclosed. > > > > > Marcus > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Owen DeLong > *Sent:* Thursday, July 15, 2021 12:08:32 AM > *To:* Marcus K. G. Adomey > *Cc:* DANIEL NANGHAKA ; AfriNIC Resource Policy > Discussion List ; community-discuss at afrinic.net < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? > > Once again, list, I apologize? > > I did not Bcc it to anyone. I did send it only to Daniel and to you. The > fact that you know I sent it to Daniel is proof that it was not a BCC and > that you apparently do not understand how email works. Please (re)read RFCs > 821, 822, and 1123. Try to understand them this time. > > As to why, because while you may be a huge fan of mine with a distorted > view of the importance of my actions to the entire community, the reality > is that this is a fairly mundane action I took in America regarding a > leadership position in an RIR that has no jurisdiction anywhere near Africa > and that it has no impact or effect on anyone in this community that I can > think of. In short it simply isn?t relevant and isn?t a valid subject for > this list. > > Please do tell what it is that you think is of interest to the community > here and what you believe you need to know that I have not already answered? > > It?s not that I?m trying to hide anything, it?s just that I am at a loss > to figure out what you are so interested in. > > If more than 5 people express interest in the answer to your question, > then I will answer it publicly. Otherwise, I will take it as an indication > that I am correct that it is off topic and uninteresting except to you and > respond privately. > > Owen > > > > On Jul 14, 2021, at 05:26 , Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: > > Hi Owen, > > Why have you BCC me the email you sent to Daniel? Why can't you send your > response to the entire mailing list? Is there something hidden in this > private email and you would not want the others to know about? The point > being discuss is of interest and we need to know. > > Please let us be transparent and open to the PDWG. > > Thanks, > > > > Marcus > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Owen DeLong > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 14, 2021 10:56 AM > *To:* DANIEL NANGHAKA ; Marcus K. G. Adomey < > madomey at hotmail.com> > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? > > Daniel, > > Responding in private since this is off-topic for the list. > > This really has nothing to do with the AFRNIC PDP and has to do with > things I want to be able to say and advocate for in the ARIN region. > > There is no conflict between my activities in AFRINIC PDP and my role on > the ARIN AC. > > As to my interest in the AFRINIC PDP, you should note that I?m also at > various times active in APNIC, LACNIC, RIPE, and ARIN PDPs. > > I make my living as a consultant and I have at various times had clients > all over the world and some clients with global networks. As a result, I am > often asked to pay attention to the PDP in those regions. > > I am also someone with a strong sense of community service. As such, since > I am obliged to monitor the process for my client(s) anyway, I will often > work towards what I perceive as the best interests of the community > (regardless of whether it is best for my client or not) and I will often > advocate as such. In general, I select clients who are generally > ideologically aligned with me. > > One exception is Cloud Innovation. While I am not ideologically 100% in > agreement with them and do not necessarily favor the current state of > policy which benefits them, I am even more concerned that the RIRs cannot > simply make up policy or randomly interpret policy to suit their > ideological goals and must, instead, follow the policy as written until it > is amended through the proper community process. > > AFRINIC has a long history of corruption, election irregularities, > financial misdeeds, and failure to properly follow its own rules in both > its governance process and in its management of the IP registry database. > As such, I have maintained a high level of interest in AFRINIC?s doings in > an effort to do what I can to help resolve those issues. > > Owen > > On Jul 14, 2021, at 03:38 , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > > Dear Marcus, > > I strongly agree, that there are policy updates from the other RIRs, what > is catching my interest at the moment is that Owen has been one of the very > active participants on PDP and I believe AFRINIC has a high level of > freedom of expression. > When he gives a reason that he wants to have greater freedom and > flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of > which would be considered a conflict of interest with his role as an > Advisory Council member. I begin to realise that Owen could have been > having a high conflict of interest which conflicted with his position on > the AC. > > Dear Owen, > Owen, kindly advise how we could deal with the Conflict of Interest in the > PDP as you state it clearly in your reason. Furthermore, I still have > question marks as to why the AFRINIC PDP is of high interest to you - yet > the Policies discussed are for the development of the Internet in Africa. > Is something wrong with the AFRINIC PDP that stimulates high interest for > your participation in AFRINIC Process that the Africa participants have > failed to solve which requires your expertise? > > Is ARIN more superior than AFRINIC? > > Thanks > Daniel > > > ? > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:26, Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: > > Dear Owen and PDWG, > > I don?t think this is an off-topic. There are reasons why we always have > session on ?policy update from other RIRs? at every PPM?it?s like we care > for what happened at ARIN PDP through its AC and possible impact on our > PDP and related issues > > In response to the statement below, one would like to know why is Owen > talking about ? was not forced to resign?? Nobody said so AFAIK, how > come the position at ARIN constitute restraint to speech and why only now? > > And question for this community is how do we deal with conflict of > interest in our PDP? > > Thanks > > > > Marcus > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:03:19 PM > *To:* Arnaud AMELINA > *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC ; > AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? > > Apologies to the list for this off-topic posting, but given the > unwarranted attention already paid to the > matter and the escalating level of speculation, I beg your indulgence. > This will (hopefully) be the > only post I make on the matter here. > > For clarity: > > 1. I chose to resign my position on the ARIN AC. I was not forced to > resign. I did not have to resign. > So your speculation is neither accurate, nor appropriate and the > implications are offensive. > > 2. I chose to resign in order to have greater freedom and flexibility to > advocate for changes in the > internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of > interest with my role as > an Advisory Council member. While I have been outspoken by most standards, > the reality is > that my position on the AC did serve as a significant restraint to my > speech in many cases. > The time has come where I felt the need to remove that restraint in order > to best serve the > community. > > Reading anything other than the above into it would be a mistake and > further speculation is very > unlikely to produce any accurate conclusions. > > If anyone has questions about my resignation, they are free to ask me > directly, but this really is > not an appropriate topic for this list. > > Owen > > > On Jul 13, 2021, at 05:56 , Arnaud AMELINA wrote: > > @Taiwo > > We all would like to know why Owen, so active in our PDP, has to resign > from his position at ARIN AC which serves in an advisory capacity to the > Board of Trustees on Internet number resource policy and related matters. > > -- > Arnaud > > Le lun. 12 juil. 2021 ? 12:37, Taiwo Oye a > ?crit : > > ?Benjilo. > How is this of concern to you or to any of the members of the afrinic > community. Kindly direct your question to the appropriate quarters - > owen at delong.com - > > > On Jul 11, 2021, at 19:27, Paschal Ochang wrote: > > ?Great question Daniel. > > On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > > Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? > > On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: > > Hello > > Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP > resigned from ARIN AC? > > https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 > > > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > -- > Kind regards, > Paschal. > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > RPD mailing list > RPD at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > RPD mailing list > RPD at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Thu Jul 15 22:19:09 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 01:19:09 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Owen, On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:56, Owen DeLong wrote: > >> >> In general, I select clients who are generally ideologically aligned >> with me. >> > And what is your so-called Ideology? besides making a living out of consultancy? > >> One exception is Cloud Innovation. >> > While I am not ideologically 100% in agreement with them and do not >> necessarily favor the current state of policy which benefits them >> > So you consult for Cloud Innovation yet you are not 100% ideologically in agreement with the very company you consult for???? And when you say "current state of policy benefits them" meaning (Cloud Innovation), what do you exactly mean? Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From comms at afrinic.net Fri Jul 16 13:49:07 2021 From: comms at afrinic.net (AFRINIC Communication) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 17:49:07 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Final Call for Comments on Code of Conduct Message-ID: <3B0B53F8-5D22-4F9B-B20A-4111A1FD571E@afrinic.net> Dear Colleagues, Consistent with the Governance Committee?s Terms of Reference (https://afrinic.net/govcom#tor), the Committee had been requested by AFRINIC?s Chief Executive Officer to review the current Code of Conduct. On 31 March 2021, a Call for Comments was launched for one month. The Governance Committee has considered the input received from the Community and thus proposes the following draft new Code of Conduct for the Community?s final review which shall be open for 3 weeks. Please comment on: https://afrinic.net/20210714-call-for-comment The deadline for this final review shall end on 5 August 2021. The Governance Committee looks forward to continuous beneficial engagement with its stakeholders. Chairperson Governance Committee From b.sowers154 at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 14:22:19 2021 From: b.sowers154 at gmail.com (Brian Sowers) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:22:19 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From madomey at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 15:06:44 2021 From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 15:06:44 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Hi again Owen, Let me then help you with some easy and praticable questions here so that we close this case. Following your attachment to some recent developments between cloud Innovation and AFRINIC, are you paid by cloud innovations or related companies? Is your departure from arin ac anyhow related to this relationship ? Hope this helps Marcus ________________________________ From: Marcus K. G. Adomey Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2021 6:54:26 PM To: Owen DeLong Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net ; AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? Hi Owen. Interesting that one must get a petition signed by 5 people for you to response to a such easy inquiry. Your private mails did not say anything beyond what you publicly said and which triggered my follow on points. As we all participate in Policy development as ? individual ? ? one need to know where are the possible or perceived conflicts of Interest coming from and why it was not dealt with according to CoI policy What is seen as Conflict over there can also be a conflict here and best practices call for these to be disclosed. Marcus ________________________________ From: Owen DeLong Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2021 12:08:32 AM To: Marcus K. G. Adomey Cc: DANIEL NANGHAKA ; AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List ; community-discuss at afrinic.net Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? Once again, list, I apologize? I did not Bcc it to anyone. I did send it only to Daniel and to you. The fact that you know I sent it to Daniel is proof that it was not a BCC and that you apparently do not understand how email works. Please (re)read RFCs 821, 822, and 1123. Try to understand them this time. As to why, because while you may be a huge fan of mine with a distorted view of the importance of my actions to the entire community, the reality is that this is a fairly mundane action I took in America regarding a leadership position in an RIR that has no jurisdiction anywhere near Africa and that it has no impact or effect on anyone in this community that I can think of. In short it simply isn?t relevant and isn?t a valid subject for this list. Please do tell what it is that you think is of interest to the community here and what you believe you need to know that I have not already answered? It?s not that I?m trying to hide anything, it?s just that I am at a loss to figure out what you are so interested in. If more than 5 people express interest in the answer to your question, then I will answer it publicly. Otherwise, I will take it as an indication that I am correct that it is off topic and uninteresting except to you and respond privately. Owen On Jul 14, 2021, at 05:26 , Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: Hi Owen, Why have you BCC me the email you sent to Daniel? Why can't you send your response to the entire mailing list? Is there something hidden in this private email and you would not want the others to know about? The point being discuss is of interest and we need to know. Please let us be transparent and open to the PDWG. Thanks, Marcus ________________________________ From: Owen DeLong > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 10:56 AM To: DANIEL NANGHAKA >; Marcus K. G. Adomey > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? Daniel, Responding in private since this is off-topic for the list. This really has nothing to do with the AFRNIC PDP and has to do with things I want to be able to say and advocate for in the ARIN region. There is no conflict between my activities in AFRINIC PDP and my role on the ARIN AC. As to my interest in the AFRINIC PDP, you should note that I?m also at various times active in APNIC, LACNIC, RIPE, and ARIN PDPs. I make my living as a consultant and I have at various times had clients all over the world and some clients with global networks. As a result, I am often asked to pay attention to the PDP in those regions. I am also someone with a strong sense of community service. As such, since I am obliged to monitor the process for my client(s) anyway, I will often work towards what I perceive as the best interests of the community (regardless of whether it is best for my client or not) and I will often advocate as such. In general, I select clients who are generally ideologically aligned with me. One exception is Cloud Innovation. While I am not ideologically 100% in agreement with them and do not necessarily favor the current state of policy which benefits them, I am even more concerned that the RIRs cannot simply make up policy or randomly interpret policy to suit their ideological goals and must, instead, follow the policy as written until it is amended through the proper community process. AFRINIC has a long history of corruption, election irregularities, financial misdeeds, and failure to properly follow its own rules in both its governance process and in its management of the IP registry database. As such, I have maintained a high level of interest in AFRINIC?s doings in an effort to do what I can to help resolve those issues. Owen On Jul 14, 2021, at 03:38 , DANIEL NANGHAKA > wrote: Dear Marcus, I strongly agree, that there are policy updates from the other RIRs, what is catching my interest at the moment is that Owen has been one of the very active participants on PDP and I believe AFRINIC has a high level of freedom of expression. When he gives a reason that he wants to have greater freedom and flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of interest with his role as an Advisory Council member. I begin to realise that Owen could have been having a high conflict of interest which conflicted with his position on the AC. Dear Owen, Owen, kindly advise how we could deal with the Conflict of Interest in the PDP as you state it clearly in your reason. Furthermore, I still have question marks as to why the AFRINIC PDP is of high interest to you - yet the Policies discussed are for the development of the Internet in Africa. Is something wrong with the AFRINIC PDP that stimulates high interest for your participation in AFRINIC Process that the Africa participants have failed to solve which requires your expertise? Is ARIN more superior than AFRINIC? Thanks Daniel [https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=aZG5kYW5uYW5nQGdtYWlsLmNvbQ%3D%3D&type=zerocontent&guid=a9e695cc-c10a-4179-9b43-33032923c218]? On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:26, Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: Dear Owen and PDWG, I don?t think this is an off-topic. There are reasons why we always have session on ?policy update from other RIRs? at every PPM?it?s like we care for what happened at ARIN PDP through its AC and possible impact on our PDP and related issues In response to the statement below, one would like to know why is Owen talking about ? was not forced to resign?? Nobody said so AFAIK, how come the position at ARIN constitute restraint to speech and why only now? And question for this community is how do we deal with conflict of interest in our PDP? Thanks Marcus ________________________________ From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:03:19 PM To: Arnaud AMELINA > Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC >; AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? Apologies to the list for this off-topic posting, but given the unwarranted attention already paid to the matter and the escalating level of speculation, I beg your indulgence. This will (hopefully) be the only post I make on the matter here. For clarity: 1. I chose to resign my position on the ARIN AC. I was not forced to resign. I did not have to resign. So your speculation is neither accurate, nor appropriate and the implications are offensive. 2. I chose to resign in order to have greater freedom and flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of interest with my role as an Advisory Council member. While I have been outspoken by most standards, the reality is that my position on the AC did serve as a significant restraint to my speech in many cases. The time has come where I felt the need to remove that restraint in order to best serve the community. Reading anything other than the above into it would be a mistake and further speculation is very unlikely to produce any accurate conclusions. If anyone has questions about my resignation, they are free to ask me directly, but this really is not an appropriate topic for this list. Owen On Jul 13, 2021, at 05:56 , Arnaud AMELINA > wrote: @Taiwo We all would like to know why Owen, so active in our PDP, has to resign from his position at ARIN AC which serves in an advisory capacity to the Board of Trustees on Internet number resource policy and related matters. -- Arnaud Le lun. 12 juil. 2021 ? 12:37, Taiwo Oye > a ?crit : ?Benjilo. How is this of concern to you or to any of the members of the afrinic community. Kindly direct your question to the appropriate quarters - owen at delong.com - On Jul 11, 2021, at 19:27, Paschal Ochang > wrote: ?Great question Daniel. On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA > wrote: Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: Hello Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP resigned from ARIN AC? https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 Marcus _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- Kind regards, Paschal. _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ RPD mailing list RPD at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Fri Jul 16 15:19:22 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 17:19:22 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Final Call for Comments on Code of Conduct In-Reply-To: <3B0B53F8-5D22-4F9B-B20A-4111A1FD571E@afrinic.net> References: <3B0B53F8-5D22-4F9B-B20A-4111A1FD571E@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Hi, I've sent already a couple of emails to comms about my concerns on the CoC. I can only find right now the last one, but I've the feeling that my previous inputs haven't been considered. I think it will be nice, when some inputs are not considered, to explain why, so to avoid misunderstandings, etc. Also, not getting inputs, doesn't help those that contribute to keep contributing (if you don't get feedback, if your inputs aren't considered, why you want to keep contributing?). So, some of my repeated inputs: 1) The use of emails captured from mailing lists, whois, etc., to send spam, such as voting suggestions, should be explicitly cited as forbidden by the CoC. 2) Distribution of malware in any of the mailing lists. 3) Posting private emails without the express consent of the sender. 4) Posting commercial/advertising content (unless done in the scope of a sponsorship, for example in-person events). 5) Plagiarism. Many of those things are typically illegal in most of the countries, but I think it should be made explicit in the CoC in order to avoid depending on any specific country. Finally, I don't think this: "Following a third breach, the subscriber will be removed from the mailing list for a period of three months." makes any sense, as the archives could be used to read the postings, resend by someone else, or use an alternative email address, etc. I think instead it should be: "Following a *third* breach, the subscriber may be removed from the list with no possibility of return." And I've in any case my doubts that the CoC can be enforced in the policy mailing list, because that will be part of the PDP and the PDP has not any explicit authorization to enact such thing. We shall remember at all time the difference between community and membership. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet ?El 16/7/21 15:53, "AFRINIC Communication" escribi?: Dear Colleagues, Consistent with the Governance Committee?s Terms of Reference (https://afrinic.net/govcom#tor), the Committee had been requested by AFRINIC?s Chief Executive Officer to review the current Code of Conduct. On 31 March 2021, a Call for Comments was launched for one month. The Governance Committee has considered the input received from the Community and thus proposes the following draft new Code of Conduct for the Community?s final review which shall be open for 3 weeks. Please comment on: https://afrinic.net/20210714-call-for-comment The deadline for this final review shall end on 5 August 2021. The Governance Committee looks forward to continuous beneficial engagement with its stakeholders. Chairperson Governance Committee _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From dontommy24 at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 15:54:29 2021 From: dontommy24 at gmail.com (Tom Ochang) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 16:54:29 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The cochairs have been bullied to a hiding corner I may presume. On Fri, 16 Jul 2021, 16:10 Marcus K. G. Adomey, wrote: > Hi again Owen, > > Let me then help you with some easy and praticable questions here so > that we close this case. > > Following your attachment to some recent developments between cloud > Innovation and AFRINIC, are you paid by cloud innovations or related > companies? Is your departure from arin ac anyhow related to this > relationship ? > > Hope this helps > > > > > Marcus > ------------------------------ > *From:* Marcus K. G. Adomey > *Sent:* Thursday, July 15, 2021 6:54:26 PM > *To:* Owen DeLong > *Cc:* community-discuss at afrinic.net ; > AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? > > Hi Owen. > > Interesting that one must get a petition signed by 5 people for you to > response to a such easy inquiry. > > Your private mails did not say anything beyond what you publicly said and > which triggered my follow on points. > > As we all participate in Policy development as ? individual ? ? one need > to know where are the possible or perceived conflicts of Interest coming > from and why it was not dealt with according to CoI policy > > What is seen as Conflict over there can also be a conflict here and best > practices call for these to be disclosed. > > > > > Marcus > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Owen DeLong > *Sent:* Thursday, July 15, 2021 12:08:32 AM > *To:* Marcus K. G. Adomey > *Cc:* DANIEL NANGHAKA ; AfriNIC Resource Policy > Discussion List ; community-discuss at afrinic.net < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? > > Once again, list, I apologize? > > I did not Bcc it to anyone. I did send it only to Daniel and to you. The > fact that you know I sent it to Daniel is proof that it was not a BCC and > that you apparently do not understand how email works. Please (re)read RFCs > 821, 822, and 1123. Try to understand them this time. > > As to why, because while you may be a huge fan of mine with a distorted > view of the importance of my actions to the entire community, the reality > is that this is a fairly mundane action I took in America regarding a > leadership position in an RIR that has no jurisdiction anywhere near Africa > and that it has no impact or effect on anyone in this community that I can > think of. In short it simply isn?t relevant and isn?t a valid subject for > this list. > > Please do tell what it is that you think is of interest to the community > here and what you believe you need to know that I have not already answered? > > It?s not that I?m trying to hide anything, it?s just that I am at a loss > to figure out what you are so interested in. > > If more than 5 people express interest in the answer to your question, > then I will answer it publicly. Otherwise, I will take it as an indication > that I am correct that it is off topic and uninteresting except to you and > respond privately. > > Owen > > > > On Jul 14, 2021, at 05:26 , Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: > > Hi Owen, > > Why have you BCC me the email you sent to Daniel? Why can't you send your > response to the entire mailing list? Is there something hidden in this > private email and you would not want the others to know about? The point > being discuss is of interest and we need to know. > > Please let us be transparent and open to the PDWG. > > Thanks, > > > > Marcus > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Owen DeLong > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 14, 2021 10:56 AM > *To:* DANIEL NANGHAKA ; Marcus K. G. Adomey < > madomey at hotmail.com> > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? > > Daniel, > > Responding in private since this is off-topic for the list. > > This really has nothing to do with the AFRNIC PDP and has to do with > things I want to be able to say and advocate for in the ARIN region. > > There is no conflict between my activities in AFRINIC PDP and my role on > the ARIN AC. > > As to my interest in the AFRINIC PDP, you should note that I?m also at > various times active in APNIC, LACNIC, RIPE, and ARIN PDPs. > > I make my living as a consultant and I have at various times had clients > all over the world and some clients with global networks. As a result, I am > often asked to pay attention to the PDP in those regions. > > I am also someone with a strong sense of community service. As such, since > I am obliged to monitor the process for my client(s) anyway, I will often > work towards what I perceive as the best interests of the community > (regardless of whether it is best for my client or not) and I will often > advocate as such. In general, I select clients who are generally > ideologically aligned with me. > > One exception is Cloud Innovation. While I am not ideologically 100% in > agreement with them and do not necessarily favor the current state of > policy which benefits them, I am even more concerned that the RIRs cannot > simply make up policy or randomly interpret policy to suit their > ideological goals and must, instead, follow the policy as written until it > is amended through the proper community process. > > AFRINIC has a long history of corruption, election irregularities, > financial misdeeds, and failure to properly follow its own rules in both > its governance process and in its management of the IP registry database. > As such, I have maintained a high level of interest in AFRINIC?s doings in > an effort to do what I can to help resolve those issues. > > Owen > > On Jul 14, 2021, at 03:38 , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > > Dear Marcus, > > I strongly agree, that there are policy updates from the other RIRs, what > is catching my interest at the moment is that Owen has been one of the very > active participants on PDP and I believe AFRINIC has a high level of > freedom of expression. > When he gives a reason that he wants to have greater freedom and > flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of > which would be considered a conflict of interest with his role as an > Advisory Council member. I begin to realise that Owen could have been > having a high conflict of interest which conflicted with his position on > the AC. > > Dear Owen, > Owen, kindly advise how we could deal with the Conflict of Interest in the > PDP as you state it clearly in your reason. Furthermore, I still have > question marks as to why the AFRINIC PDP is of high interest to you - yet > the Policies discussed are for the development of the Internet in Africa. > Is something wrong with the AFRINIC PDP that stimulates high interest for > your participation in AFRINIC Process that the Africa participants have > failed to solve which requires your expertise? > > Is ARIN more superior than AFRINIC? > > Thanks > Daniel > > > ? > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:26, Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: > > Dear Owen and PDWG, > > I don?t think this is an off-topic. There are reasons why we always have > session on ?policy update from other RIRs? at every PPM?it?s like we care > for what happened at ARIN PDP through its AC and possible impact on our > PDP and related issues > > In response to the statement below, one would like to know why is Owen > talking about ? was not forced to resign?? Nobody said so AFAIK, how > come the position at ARIN constitute restraint to speech and why only now? > > And question for this community is how do we deal with conflict of > interest in our PDP? > > Thanks > > > > Marcus > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:03:19 PM > *To:* Arnaud AMELINA > *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC ; > AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? > > Apologies to the list for this off-topic posting, but given the > unwarranted attention already paid to the > matter and the escalating level of speculation, I beg your indulgence. > This will (hopefully) be the > only post I make on the matter here. > > For clarity: > > 1. I chose to resign my position on the ARIN AC. I was not forced to > resign. I did not have to resign. > So your speculation is neither accurate, nor appropriate and the > implications are offensive. > > 2. I chose to resign in order to have greater freedom and flexibility to > advocate for changes in the > internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of > interest with my role as > an Advisory Council member. While I have been outspoken by most standards, > the reality is > that my position on the AC did serve as a significant restraint to my > speech in many cases. > The time has come where I felt the need to remove that restraint in order > to best serve the > community. > > Reading anything other than the above into it would be a mistake and > further speculation is very > unlikely to produce any accurate conclusions. > > If anyone has questions about my resignation, they are free to ask me > directly, but this really is > not an appropriate topic for this list. > > Owen > > > On Jul 13, 2021, at 05:56 , Arnaud AMELINA wrote: > > @Taiwo > > We all would like to know why Owen, so active in our PDP, has to resign > from his position at ARIN AC which serves in an advisory capacity to the > Board of Trustees on Internet number resource policy and related matters. > > -- > Arnaud > > Le lun. 12 juil. 2021 ? 12:37, Taiwo Oye a > ?crit : > > ?Benjilo. > How is this of concern to you or to any of the members of the afrinic > community. Kindly direct your question to the appropriate quarters - > owen at delong.com - > > > On Jul 11, 2021, at 19:27, Paschal Ochang wrote: > > ?Great question Daniel. > > On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > > Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? > > On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: > > Hello > > Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP > resigned from ARIN AC? > > https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 > > > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > -- > Kind regards, > Paschal. > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > RPD mailing list > RPD at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geier at geier.ne.tz Fri Jul 16 16:31:23 2021 From: geier at geier.ne.tz (Frank Habicht) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 19:31:23 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Final Call for Comments on Code of Conduct In-Reply-To: <3B0B53F8-5D22-4F9B-B20A-4111A1FD571E@afrinic.net> References: <3B0B53F8-5D22-4F9B-B20A-4111A1FD571E@afrinic.net> Message-ID: <069def2d-c5bc-98c2-e3fb-c67ffd19be8a@geier.ne.tz> Hi, On 16/07/2021 16:49, AFRINIC Communication wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > Consistent with the Governance Committee?s Terms of Reference (https://afrinic.net/govcom#tor), the Committee had been requested by AFRINIC?s Chief Executive Officer to review the current Code of Conduct. > > On 31 March 2021, a Call for Comments was launched for one month. > > The Governance Committee has considered the input received from the Community and thus proposes the following draft new Code of Conduct for the Community?s final review which shall be open for 3 weeks. > > Please comment on: https://afrinic.net/20210714-call-for-comment ... which says: "Please use the comment feature at the bottom of this page to submit your comments." and there, in order to send something, I have to: - "LOG IN WITH" "D" (disqus) or "F" (facebook) or "T" (twitter), or "G" (google) - OR: "SIGN UP WITH DISQUS" can it please be made possible for an ordinary person to send a message to AfriNIC directly without passing through third parties and forcing us (interested parties) to subscribe to 3rd parties? Thank you. Frank PS: is AfriNIC getting commission from these 3rd parties for our user data? From yakmutd at googlemail.com Fri Jul 16 17:28:19 2021 From: yakmutd at googlemail.com (Daniel Yakmut) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 18:28:19 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is so funny when we ask such questions. It is compounding to ask why a person should consult. I thought consultancy, means rendering your expertise to someone at a fee. Simply Daniel On Fri, Jul 16, 2021, 4:10 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote: > Hi again Owen, > > Let me then help you with some easy and praticable questions here so > that we close this case. > > Following your attachment to some recent developments between cloud > Innovation and AFRINIC, are you paid by cloud innovations or related > companies? Is your departure from arin ac anyhow related to this > relationship ? > > Hope this helps > > > > > Marcus > ------------------------------ > *From:* Marcus K. G. Adomey > *Sent:* Thursday, July 15, 2021 6:54:26 PM > *To:* Owen DeLong > *Cc:* community-discuss at afrinic.net ; > AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? > > Hi Owen. > > Interesting that one must get a petition signed by 5 people for you to > response to a such easy inquiry. > > Your private mails did not say anything beyond what you publicly said and > which triggered my follow on points. > > As we all participate in Policy development as ? individual ? ? one need > to know where are the possible or perceived conflicts of Interest coming > from and why it was not dealt with according to CoI policy > > What is seen as Conflict over there can also be a conflict here and best > practices call for these to be disclosed. > > > > > Marcus > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Owen DeLong > *Sent:* Thursday, July 15, 2021 12:08:32 AM > *To:* Marcus K. G. Adomey > *Cc:* DANIEL NANGHAKA ; AfriNIC Resource Policy > Discussion List ; community-discuss at afrinic.net < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? > > Once again, list, I apologize? > > I did not Bcc it to anyone. I did send it only to Daniel and to you. The > fact that you know I sent it to Daniel is proof that it was not a BCC and > that you apparently do not understand how email works. Please (re)read RFCs > 821, 822, and 1123. Try to understand them this time. > > As to why, because while you may be a huge fan of mine with a distorted > view of the importance of my actions to the entire community, the reality > is that this is a fairly mundane action I took in America regarding a > leadership position in an RIR that has no jurisdiction anywhere near Africa > and that it has no impact or effect on anyone in this community that I can > think of. In short it simply isn?t relevant and isn?t a valid subject for > this list. > > Please do tell what it is that you think is of interest to the community > here and what you believe you need to know that I have not already answered? > > It?s not that I?m trying to hide anything, it?s just that I am at a loss > to figure out what you are so interested in. > > If more than 5 people express interest in the answer to your question, > then I will answer it publicly. Otherwise, I will take it as an indication > that I am correct that it is off topic and uninteresting except to you and > respond privately. > > Owen > > > > On Jul 14, 2021, at 05:26 , Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: > > Hi Owen, > > Why have you BCC me the email you sent to Daniel? Why can't you send your > response to the entire mailing list? Is there something hidden in this > private email and you would not want the others to know about? The point > being discuss is of interest and we need to know. > > Please let us be transparent and open to the PDWG. > > Thanks, > > > > Marcus > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Owen DeLong > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 14, 2021 10:56 AM > *To:* DANIEL NANGHAKA ; Marcus K. G. Adomey < > madomey at hotmail.com> > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? > > Daniel, > > Responding in private since this is off-topic for the list. > > This really has nothing to do with the AFRNIC PDP and has to do with > things I want to be able to say and advocate for in the ARIN region. > > There is no conflict between my activities in AFRINIC PDP and my role on > the ARIN AC. > > As to my interest in the AFRINIC PDP, you should note that I?m also at > various times active in APNIC, LACNIC, RIPE, and ARIN PDPs. > > I make my living as a consultant and I have at various times had clients > all over the world and some clients with global networks. As a result, I am > often asked to pay attention to the PDP in those regions. > > I am also someone with a strong sense of community service. As such, since > I am obliged to monitor the process for my client(s) anyway, I will often > work towards what I perceive as the best interests of the community > (regardless of whether it is best for my client or not) and I will often > advocate as such. In general, I select clients who are generally > ideologically aligned with me. > > One exception is Cloud Innovation. While I am not ideologically 100% in > agreement with them and do not necessarily favor the current state of > policy which benefits them, I am even more concerned that the RIRs cannot > simply make up policy or randomly interpret policy to suit their > ideological goals and must, instead, follow the policy as written until it > is amended through the proper community process. > > AFRINIC has a long history of corruption, election irregularities, > financial misdeeds, and failure to properly follow its own rules in both > its governance process and in its management of the IP registry database. > As such, I have maintained a high level of interest in AFRINIC?s doings in > an effort to do what I can to help resolve those issues. > > Owen > > On Jul 14, 2021, at 03:38 , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > > Dear Marcus, > > I strongly agree, that there are policy updates from the other RIRs, what > is catching my interest at the moment is that Owen has been one of the very > active participants on PDP and I believe AFRINIC has a high level of > freedom of expression. > When he gives a reason that he wants to have greater freedom and > flexibility to advocate for changes in the internet community, some of > which would be considered a conflict of interest with his role as an > Advisory Council member. I begin to realise that Owen could have been > having a high conflict of interest which conflicted with his position on > the AC. > > Dear Owen, > Owen, kindly advise how we could deal with the Conflict of Interest in the > PDP as you state it clearly in your reason. Furthermore, I still have > question marks as to why the AFRINIC PDP is of high interest to you - yet > the Policies discussed are for the development of the Internet in Africa. > Is something wrong with the AFRINIC PDP that stimulates high interest for > your participation in AFRINIC Process that the Africa participants have > failed to solve which requires your expertise? > > Is ARIN more superior than AFRINIC? > > Thanks > Daniel > > > ? > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:26, Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: > > Dear Owen and PDWG, > > I don?t think this is an off-topic. There are reasons why we always have > session on ?policy update from other RIRs? at every PPM?it?s like we care > for what happened at ARIN PDP through its AC and possible impact on our > PDP and related issues > > In response to the statement below, one would like to know why is Owen > talking about ? was not forced to resign?? Nobody said so AFAIK, how > come the position at ARIN constitute restraint to speech and why only now? > > And question for this community is how do we deal with conflict of > interest in our PDP? > > Thanks > > > > Marcus > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 13, 2021 5:03:19 PM > *To:* Arnaud AMELINA > *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC ; > AfriNIC Resource Policy Discussion List > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? > > Apologies to the list for this off-topic posting, but given the > unwarranted attention already paid to the > matter and the escalating level of speculation, I beg your indulgence. > This will (hopefully) be the > only post I make on the matter here. > > For clarity: > > 1. I chose to resign my position on the ARIN AC. I was not forced to > resign. I did not have to resign. > So your speculation is neither accurate, nor appropriate and the > implications are offensive. > > 2. I chose to resign in order to have greater freedom and flexibility to > advocate for changes in the > internet community, some of which would be considered a conflict of > interest with my role as > an Advisory Council member. While I have been outspoken by most standards, > the reality is > that my position on the AC did serve as a significant restraint to my > speech in many cases. > The time has come where I felt the need to remove that restraint in order > to best serve the > community. > > Reading anything other than the above into it would be a mistake and > further speculation is very > unlikely to produce any accurate conclusions. > > If anyone has questions about my resignation, they are free to ask me > directly, but this really is > not an appropriate topic for this list. > > Owen > > > On Jul 13, 2021, at 05:56 , Arnaud AMELINA wrote: > > @Taiwo > > We all would like to know why Owen, so active in our PDP, has to resign > from his position at ARIN AC which serves in an advisory capacity to the > Board of Trustees on Internet number resource policy and related matters. > > -- > Arnaud > > Le lun. 12 juil. 2021 ? 12:37, Taiwo Oye a > ?crit : > > ?Benjilo. > How is this of concern to you or to any of the members of the afrinic > community. Kindly direct your question to the appropriate quarters - > owen at delong.com - > > > On Jul 11, 2021, at 19:27, Paschal Ochang wrote: > > ?Great question Daniel. > > On Sunday, July 11, 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > > Is this worth discussing on the rpd or mailing lists? > > On Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 8:36 PM Marcus K. G. Adomey > wrote: > > Hello > > Out of curiosity, does anyone know why Owen Delong active in AFRINIC PDP > resigned from ARIN AC? > > https://www.arin.net/about/welcome/ac/meetings/2021_0617/ point 10 > > > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > -- > Kind regards, > Paschal. > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > RPD mailing list > RPD at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > RPD mailing list > RPD at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From comms at afrinic.net Fri Jul 16 18:24:54 2021 From: comms at afrinic.net (AFRINIC Communication) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 22:24:54 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Reminder on the AFRINIC Code of Conduct Message-ID: <01D0DAF2-E09C-456F-B036-21C4B6D2C093@afrinic.net> Dear Colleagues, We urge you all to read the AFRINIC Code of Conduct to make sure you are up to date on the processes that safeguard the discussion and community-driven policies at the heart of AFRINIC. The code of conduct ensures that discussions are kept professional and that individuals are protected against defamatory, derogatory and personal attacks. Please read the following blog post for more information on the AFRINIC Code of Conduct: https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct Kind regards, AFRINIC Communications ?????????????... Chers coll?gues, Nous vous invitons ? lire ce document pour vous assurer que vous ?tes au courant de notre code de conduite et des processus qui prot?gent la discussion et les politiques communautaires au c?ur d'AFRINIC. Le code de conduite garantit que les discussions restent professionnelles et que les individus sont prot?g?s contre les attaques diffamatoires, d?sobligeantes et personnelles. Veuillez lire le blog suivant sur le code de conduite d'AFRINIC : https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct. Cordialement AFRINIC Communications -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From abscoco at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 18:58:47 2021 From: abscoco at gmail.com (Sylvain Baya) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 19:58:47 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? In-Reply-To: References: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> Message-ID: Dear AfriNIC's Community, Le mercredi 14 juillet 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA a ?crit : > Someone, please help - What is the meaning of this? > > Hi Daniel, Thanks for your question, brother! > [...] > ? > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 11:36, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > >> Could AFRINIC please comply with the court order to reinstate Cloud >> Innovation? >> >> Could AfriNIC, please, explain to this community how an Org which is not a LIR (*Local* Internet Registry) within the AfriNIC service region, became a resource member? > >> It?s one thing when you can?t follow your own rules, but you?re now >> violating the law and >> >> ...maybe starting to complain with the signed RSA and with the very regional RIR's CPM, would have helped enough :'-( > >> working hard towards a contempt citation. It didn?t take long to screw up >> our whois entries, >> it shouldn?t take long to put them back. >> >> As of 12:26 PM Mauritius time, Wed. July 14, 2021: >> >> whois -h whois.afrinic.net 154.88.0.0 >> 2021/07/14 1:25:44 >> % This is the AfriNIC Whois server. >> % The AFRINIC whois database is subject to the following terms of Use. >> See https://afrinic.net/whois/terms >> >> [...] >> >> % Information related to '154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255' >> >> % No abuse contact registered for 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 >> >> inetnum: 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 >> netname: CloudInnovation >> descr: CloudInnovation infrastructure >> country: US > > ...is this not an evidence of a AIR (*American* Internet Registry) Org rather than a LIR? {or a GIR (Global Internet Registry)} :-/ Maybe this question is better suited to the AfriNIC's BoD, as the BoD *must* always protect AfriNIC. Thanks to take it please. Shalom, --sb. > >> admin-c: APC1-AFRINIC >> tech-c: APC1-AFRINIC >> status: ASSIGNED PA >> remarks: ============REMARK============= >> [...] >> Thanks, >> >> Owen >> [...] > > -- -- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]| Subscribe to Mailing List: __ #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From omo.oaiya at wacren.net Fri Jul 16 19:30:07 2021 From: omo.oaiya at wacren.net (Omo Oaiya) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 20:30:07 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A45628E-1C95-4311-9C6C-994B22681749@wacren.net> > On 16 Jul 2021, at 18:28, Daniel Yakmut via Community-Discuss wrote: > > It is so funny when we ask such questions. It is compounding to ask why a person should consult. > > I thought consultancy, means rendering your expertise to someone at a fee. > > Simply > Daniel Not so funny when there is a supposed ideological mismatch. That would be more mercenary than consultant. Looking on with interest. Omo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From abscoco at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 19:36:51 2021 From: abscoco at gmail.com (Sylvain Baya) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 20:36:51 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? In-Reply-To: <355031626276504@sas1-17582c8cbad7.qloud-c.yandex.net> References: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> <355031626276504@sas1-17582c8cbad7.qloud-c.yandex.net> Message-ID: Dear AfriNIC's Community, Le mercredi 14 juillet 2021, Dabu Sifiso a ?crit : > > > Hi Daniel, > > Hi Dabu, Thanks you for your informative email, brother. > I guess you are reacting because of the assignment's country code. > > ...based to this, i therefore suggest that: ~?~ ?1] For the review of the utilisation of resources allocated (to Resource Members) from AfriNIC's INR pools, ?2] AfriNIC's Staff prioritize "inetnum:" objects with "country:" attributes with a country code (cc) different to those from the AfriNIC's service region. ?3] First step might be to publish all the related stats. ?4] any other good idea is welcome... ~?~ ...you should include objects from "inet6num:" class. > Please download the file from AFRINIC: > > https://ftp.afrinic.net/pub/pub/dbase/afrinic.db.gz > > Could the DB manager, please, help us to do this? > Do a search for "country: " and see for yourself, assignments out > of Africa are not uncommon at all and are done in small to large scale by > many LIRs. > > Here is an example of a larger one, not affiliated to CI as far as I could > see: > > inetnum: X.X.128.0 - X.X.143.255 > netname: XXXXXX-ASSIGNMENTS-CUSTOMERS > descr: Assignment made to XXXXXX Customers. > descr: In case of abuse, please contact abuse at XXXXXX.mu > country: FR > > > I understood from the discussions here and from the policy texts, only the > more recent allocations are truly restricted to be used in region only, > this means that older LIRs with old allocations can indeed offer services > out of region with their address space. > > Now, if you find assignments or sub-allocations made from allocations > issued under the current soft landing phase that are registered for out of > regions. > Those may need AFRINIC to double check what is going on. > > Please, be kind and do it DB manager :-) Thanks. Shalom, --sb. > > Regards, > Dabu > > > > 10:52, 14 July 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA : > > Someone, please help - What is the meaning of this? > > ii_kr38qdra0 > ? > > [...] > > -- -- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]| Subscribe to Mailing List: __ #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Fri Jul 16 20:28:20 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 13:28:20 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? In-Reply-To: References: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 16, 2021, at 11:58 , Sylvain Baya wrote: > > Dear AfriNIC's Community, > > Le mercredi 14 juillet 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA > a ?crit : > Someone, please help - What is the meaning of this? > > > Hi Daniel, > Thanks for your question, brother! > > [...] > ? > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 11:36, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: > Could AFRINIC please comply with the court order to reinstate Cloud Innovation? > > > Could AfriNIC, please, explain to this community > how an Org which is not a LIR (*Local* Internet > Registry) within the AfriNIC service region, became a resource member? Cloud Innovation _IS_ an LIR i the AFRINIC service region and issues addresses to its customers both within Africa and outside of Africa entirely within the rules set forth in the CPM. As such, your question is moot because the premise on which it is based is factually incorrect. > It?s one thing when you can?t follow your own rules, but you?re now violating the law and > > > ...maybe starting to complain with the signed RSA > and with the very regional RIR's CPM, would have helped enough :'-( While I wish I could properly answer this, I cannot comment on open litigation at this time. I refer you to the previously posted public documents which do include a full explanation of how AFRINIC made this course of action necessary. > working hard towards a contempt citation. It didn?t take long to screw up our whois entries, > it shouldn?t take long to put them back. > > As of 12:26 PM Mauritius time, Wed. July 14, 2021: > > whois -h whois.afrinic.net 154.88.0.0 2021/07/14 1:25:44 > % This is the AfriNIC Whois server. > % The AFRINIC whois database is subject to the following terms of Use. See https://afrinic.net/whois/terms > > [...] > > % Information related to '154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255' > > % No abuse contact registered for 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 > > inetnum: 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 > netname: CloudInnovation > descr: CloudInnovation infrastructure > country: US > > > ...is this not an evidence of a AIR (*American* > Internet Registry) Org rather than a LIR? {or a GIR > (Global Internet Registry)} :-/ The US Country code was inserted by AFRINIC when they defaced our whois records. It is not the original entry, so you will have to ask AFRINIC about its meaning and reasoning. > Maybe this question is better suited to the > AfriNIC's BoD, as the BoD *must* always protect > AfriNIC. It has been asked of the board as well. We felt that it was important for the community to be aware of AFRINIC?s conduct and encourage members to consider this in their decisions in the next election. > Thanks to take it please. It is unclear to me what you are asking whom to take in this request. For completeness and transparency, I will note that AFRINIC did eventually restore our whois entries later that day as well as other functions as required by the court. To the best of my knowledge, AFRINIC is, now, in compliance with the order, though they certainly took their time to do so vs. the expedient manner in which they committed their prior acts of destruction. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Fri Jul 16 20:58:43 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 13:58:43 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Final Call for Comments on Code of Conduct In-Reply-To: <069def2d-c5bc-98c2-e3fb-c67ffd19be8a@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: <82981.1626469123@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message <069def2d-c5bc-98c2-e3fb-c67ffd19be8a at geier.ne.tz>, Frank Habicht wrote: >... which says: "Please use the comment feature at the bottom of this >page to submit your comments." > >and there, in order to send something, I have to: >- "LOG IN WITH" "D" (disqus) or "F" (facebook) or "T" (twitter), > or "G" (google) >- OR: "SIGN UP WITH DISQUS" > >can it please be made possible for an ordinary person to send a message >to AfriNIC directly without passing through third parties and forcing us >(interested parties) to subscribe to 3rd parties? +1 I am with Frank 100% on this point. I am already being forced to sign up with this or that commercial company on a daily basis, just to accomplish simple tasks. And those companies then see fit to monetize *my* personal information. There is no excuse for AFRINIC to force people to create accounts with third-party commercial companies just in order to be able to comment on AFRINIC policy matters. Regards, rfg From owen at delong.com Sat Jul 17 02:02:58 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 19:02:58 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69B2B67A-84BE-419E-A7E2-3377C96A67A5@delong.com> > On Jul 15, 2021, at 15:19 , Noah wrote: > > Owen, > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 13:56, Owen DeLong > wrote: > > In general, I select clients who are generally ideologically aligned with me. > > And what is your so-called Ideology? besides making a living out of consultancy? That?s a complicated question, but I assure you that making a living out of consultancy actually isn?t part of that ideology. Making a living is a purely pragmatic matter. Had I been financially wiser in my youth, I would no longer be depending on fees for my services in order to survive. Alas, finance has never been my strong suit nor my primary motivator and as a result, I am still working for money rather than the other way around. The best way to understand my ideology as regards number resource policy and how it has evolved over the years is to review my public record and my voting record on the ARIN AC. > One exception is Cloud Innovation. > While I am not ideologically 100% in agreement with them and do not necessarily favor the current state of policy which benefits them > > So you consult for Cloud Innovation yet you are not 100% ideologically in agreement with the very company you consult for???? Yes. Nobody is 100% ideologically in agreement with me, most likely. Many areas where I agree with Cloud Innovation. Some areas where I do not. Lu and I are open and honest with each other about where we agree and where we disagree and there is no expectation inherent in my contract that I will alter my views or express views that I don?t agree with, so we are able to make it work. While I don?t necessarily like some of the ways in which Lu has gone about utilizing the address space he obtained from AFRINIC, a plain text reading of the governing documents (CPM, RSA, bylaws) leaves me no choice but to agree that his use is compliant with the applicable policies and that his company has acted in good faith and compliance with the rules as they are written. I am not personally entirely convinced that leasing is either good or bad for the community. However, I am convinced that the policies as currently written do not preclude it. > And when you say "current state of policy benefits them" meaning (Cloud Innovation), what do you exactly mean? I mean the fact that the policy as written does not preclude leasing and does not prohibit (or even limit) out of region use except for registrations issued after the beginning of exhaustion phase 1 in the soft landing policy. I would have thought that self evident by now. I am of mixed emotions on both of these issues. I am ambivalent at best on leasing. On out of region use, I would love to see a way to address it that didn?t come with collateral damage that would make the cure worse than the disease, but so far no such option has presented itself. The aborted attempt at such a policy some years ago in this community provided a pretty substantial review of just how thorny the issue is and how rapidly it devolves into corner cases that are difficult to address. In the end, the community did not come to consensus to adopt such a policy and it was withdrawn by the author. The community has never (to the best of my knowledge) made any effort to even consider a policy prohibiting leasing, even in light of recent events. One would think that the easiest way for the community to stop leasing, if they truly found it so objectionable, would be to prohibit it in policy, yet there is still not so much as a policy proposal submitted towards this end. As such, it sounds to me like a few vociferous people wish to whine about ideology while refusing to take action to make the rules actually consistent with their supposed views. At least when I take issue with a policy or other rule or even a proposal, I offer concrete alternatives (which admittedly in some cases is to simply claim the status quo is superior to the proposed alternative). Such is the case in my reaction to the boards Appeal Committee land grab. I offered very concrete suggestions for an alternative which could yield a properly independent appellate body. The issues in this case are not whether I agree with Lu and what he is doing or not. The issues are whether or not AFRINIC as a body and the AFRINIC board and staff will comply with their own rules as written and as developed by the members and the community or whether they are free to run amok and create rules from whole cloth. It is the importance of following the rules as written where my client Cloud Innovation and I are ideologically aligned and what I consider the most important aspect of this case. I really had high hopes that AFRINIC would take this more seriously when we tried to resolve it amicably before involving the courts, but I failed in my attempt to communicate this and alas, egos were bruised, respect was lost, and the situation degraded farther than I had ever thought possible. I will also point out that Cloud Innovation is not my only client in the region and my clients are not the only ones potentially harmed by AFRINIC?s failure to follow its own rules here. Whether you agree with me or not, whether you like what I say or not, I have always tried to act in what I believe to be the best interests of the community and I will always continue to do so. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Sat Jul 17 02:06:14 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 19:06:14 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] ARIN without Owen Delong ? In-Reply-To: <5A45628E-1C95-4311-9C6C-994B22681749@wacren.net> References: <5A45628E-1C95-4311-9C6C-994B22681749@wacren.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 16, 2021, at 12:30 , Omo Oaiya wrote: > > >> On 16 Jul 2021, at 18:28, Daniel Yakmut via Community-Discuss > wrote: >> >> It is so funny when we ask such questions. It is compounding to ask why a person should consult. >> >> I thought consultancy, means rendering your expertise to someone at a fee. >> >> Simply >> Daniel > > > Not so funny when there is a supposed ideological mismatch. That would be more mercenary than consultant. Looking on with interest. It must be nice if you?ve had a 100% ideological match with every employer or customer you?ve ever worked with. Most people don?t have that luxury even with their domestic partner/spouse/significant other. There are areas where Lu and I agree and areas where we disagree. We are able to do so with mutual respect and tolerance. It is mercenary if you compromise your ideology or your ethics or morals in order to perform duties for your client. It is consulting if you set aside your differences and work for the client in the areas where you don?t have to do so. I hope you can understand the difference as I have explained it here. I assure you that I have been consulting and am not a mercenary. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Sat Jul 17 02:19:05 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 19:19:05 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Final Call for Comments on Code of Conduct In-Reply-To: References: <3B0B53F8-5D22-4F9B-B20A-4111A1FD571E@afrinic.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 16, 2021, at 08:19 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote: > > Hi, > > I've sent already a couple of emails to comms about my concerns on the CoC. I can only find right now the last one, but I've the feeling that my previous inputs haven't been considered. > > I think it will be nice, when some inputs are not considered, to explain why, so to avoid misunderstandings, etc. Also, not getting inputs, doesn't help those that contribute to keep contributing (if you don't get feedback, if your inputs aren't considered, why you want to keep contributing?). > > So, some of my repeated inputs: > > 1) The use of emails captured from mailing lists, whois, etc., to send spam, such as voting suggestions, should be explicitly cited as forbidden by the CoC. I agree with this. > 2) Distribution of malware in any of the mailing lists. While I am not a fan of item 13 (which I will outline later), so long as it persists, I think it is safe to say that everyone will generally agree that sending malware to the mailing lists is not acting in the best interests of the community. > 3) Posting private emails without the express consent of the sender. I agree with this. > 4) Posting commercial/advertising content (unless done in the scope of a sponsorship, for example in-person events). And this. > 5) Plagiarism. This would need to be addressed more specifically. Quotation of content vs. plagiarism is a very fine line and very subjective. Indeed, in copyright law in the US, courts still struggle with it since 1934. Absent clear guidance on where this line is drawn in this context, I think such a rule could be quite open to abuse. I don?t see any problem with the PDWG co-chairs enforcing the CoC WRT the RPD list as they are charged with managing the PDP and given broad latitude in that mandate. My problem with item 13 is not the spirit or intent as it is written, but in the ambiguity that exists about what is ?in the best interests of the AFRINIC community? and how this statement could be abused in an effort to subjugate unpopular ideas or silence the voice of a minority opinion in the community. Indeed, it seems quite clear to me in AFRINIC?s recent filings with the Supreme court that they intended to claim that my participation in the case on behalf of Cloud Innovation was contrary to the best interests of the community. While I will agree that my participation was not necessarily in the best interests of AFRINIC staff, I will absolutely insist that the best interests of the community were foremost in my mind as I took on this issue. The need to hold AFRINIC board and staff accountable to the rules as written is absolutely in the best interests of the community, no matter how inconvenient that fact may be for those seeking to act otherwise, even if they are executives or board members of the organization. As such, while I support the idea behind clause 13 and have at all times complied with the spirit thereof (it is also present in the existing CoC). I think it is important that this rule come with safeguards to prevent it from becoming a tool of oppression. Owen From owen at delong.com Sat Jul 17 02:20:06 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 19:20:06 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Final Call for Comments on Code of Conduct In-Reply-To: <82981.1626469123@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <82981.1626469123@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 16, 2021, at 13:58 , Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > In message <069def2d-c5bc-98c2-e3fb-c67ffd19be8a at geier.ne.tz>, > Frank Habicht wrote: > >> ... which says: "Please use the comment feature at the bottom of this >> page to submit your comments." >> >> and there, in order to send something, I have to: >> - "LOG IN WITH" "D" (disqus) or "F" (facebook) or "T" (twitter), >> or "G" (google) >> - OR: "SIGN UP WITH DISQUS" >> >> can it please be made possible for an ordinary person to send a message >> to AfriNIC directly without passing through third parties and forcing us >> (interested parties) to subscribe to 3rd parties? > > +1 > > I am with Frank 100% on this point. > > I am already being forced to sign up with this or that commercial company > on a daily basis, just to accomplish simple tasks. And those companies > then see fit to monetize *my* personal information. > > There is no excuse for AFRINIC to force people to create accounts with > third-party commercial companies just in order to be able to comment > on AFRINIC policy matters. > > > Regards, > rfg > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss +1 ? This is ridiculous. Owen From comms at afrinic.net Sat Jul 17 07:00:20 2021 From: comms at afrinic.net (AFRINIC Communication) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 11:00:20 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Final Call for Comments on Code of Conduct In-Reply-To: References: <82981.1626469123@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <04D634FA-0BF3-4C80-B80E-3850200665B0@afrinic.net> Dear community, We have taken note of your concerns and feedback on using third party mechanisms for comment purposes due to privacy and usage of personal data concerns. Please note that under the "Disqus" functionality, you may opt to post without signing onto the platform by clicking the checkbox "I'd rather post as a guest?, which appears at the bottom after clicking on the ?Name" field. You may also share your comments on the mailing list by replying to the original thread. We would also like to share with the community that we are currently working on implementing a Single Sign On (SSO) Solution as part of our MyAFRINICv2 roadmap. Thank you for the feedback. Regards AFRINIC Communications > On 17 Jul 2021, at 06:20, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: > > > >> On Jul 16, 2021, at 13:58 , Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: >> >> In message <069def2d-c5bc-98c2-e3fb-c67ffd19be8a at geier.ne.tz>, >> Frank Habicht wrote: >> >>> ... which says: "Please use the comment feature at the bottom of this >>> page to submit your comments." >>> >>> and there, in order to send something, I have to: >>> - "LOG IN WITH" "D" (disqus) or "F" (facebook) or "T" (twitter), >>> or "G" (google) >>> - OR: "SIGN UP WITH DISQUS" >>> >>> can it please be made possible for an ordinary person to send a message >>> to AfriNIC directly without passing through third parties and forcing us >>> (interested parties) to subscribe to 3rd parties? >> >> +1 >> >> I am with Frank 100% on this point. >> >> I am already being forced to sign up with this or that commercial company >> on a daily basis, just to accomplish simple tasks. And those companies >> then see fit to monetize *my* personal information. >> >> There is no excuse for AFRINIC to force people to create accounts with >> third-party commercial companies just in order to be able to comment >> on AFRINIC policy matters. >> >> >> Regards, >> rfg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > +1 ? This is ridiculous. > > Owen > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Sat Jul 17 09:28:25 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 11:28:25 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Final Call for Comments on Code of Conduct In-Reply-To: References: <3B0B53F8-5D22-4F9B-B20A-4111A1FD571E@afrinic.net> Message-ID: <8C074D37-2BC1-475C-849E-679F65E536BA@consulintel.es> Yes, clearly quoting is not plagiarism. As said, using text from others, without citing it, it is an IP violation in many countries, but this is the same with many aspects of the CoC, in many countries, those are criminal/illegal actions. The CoC is just remembering that and reinforcing it just in case it happens in this scope, so there is no doubt or anyone that say "in my country this is not illegal". Agree with your final comments. I don't know all the details of the Cloud Innovation case and I *personally* disagree that using the resources outside the region and/or leasing is acceptable, at least not with the current rules (we can change that via the PDP if the community agree). However, on top of that, it is clear to me that *following* existing rules (PDP, CPM, bylaws, RSA, etc.) is not only in the best interest of the community (and this includes Board and staff) and that includes proposing changes when something seems to be wrong, that's why we have the PDP and community consultancy on topics such as the CoC, AC composition, etc. Nobody can be "prosecuted" for trying to improve things, or defend his/her bussiness or customers, even if they look "negative" to some. It is part of the rights of the community and, in general, freedom of speech and freedom of bussiness. And this can't be pre-judged as if it is on the "best interest" or not, because the community is diverse. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet ?El 17/7/21 4:19, "Owen DeLong" escribi?: > On Jul 16, 2021, at 08:19 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote: > > Hi, > > I've sent already a couple of emails to comms about my concerns on the CoC. I can only find right now the last one, but I've the feeling that my previous inputs haven't been considered. > > I think it will be nice, when some inputs are not considered, to explain why, so to avoid misunderstandings, etc. Also, not getting inputs, doesn't help those that contribute to keep contributing (if you don't get feedback, if your inputs aren't considered, why you want to keep contributing?). > > So, some of my repeated inputs: > > 1) The use of emails captured from mailing lists, whois, etc., to send spam, such as voting suggestions, should be explicitly cited as forbidden by the CoC. I agree with this. > 2) Distribution of malware in any of the mailing lists. While I am not a fan of item 13 (which I will outline later), so long as it persists, I think it is safe to say that everyone will generally agree that sending malware to the mailing lists is not acting in the best interests of the community. > 3) Posting private emails without the express consent of the sender. I agree with this. > 4) Posting commercial/advertising content (unless done in the scope of a sponsorship, for example in-person events). And this. > 5) Plagiarism. This would need to be addressed more specifically. Quotation of content vs. plagiarism is a very fine line and very subjective. Indeed, in copyright law in the US, courts still struggle with it since 1934. Absent clear guidance on where this line is drawn in this context, I think such a rule could be quite open to abuse. I don?t see any problem with the PDWG co-chairs enforcing the CoC WRT the RPD list as they are charged with managing the PDP and given broad latitude in that mandate. My problem with item 13 is not the spirit or intent as it is written, but in the ambiguity that exists about what is ?in the best interests of the AFRINIC community? and how this statement could be abused in an effort to subjugate unpopular ideas or silence the voice of a minority opinion in the community. Indeed, it seems quite clear to me in AFRINIC?s recent filings with the Supreme court that they intended to claim that my participation in the case on behalf of Cloud Innovation was contrary to the best interests of the community. While I will agree that my participation was not necessarily in the best interests of AFRINIC staff, I will absolutely insist that the best interests of the community were foremost in my mind as I took on this issue. The need to hold AFRINIC board and staff accountable to the rules as written is absolutely in the best interests of the community, no matter how inconvenient that fact may be for those seeking to act otherwise, even if they are executives or board members of the organization. As such, while I support the idea behind clause 13 and have at all times complied with the spirit thereof (it is also present in the existing CoC). I think it is important that this rule come with safeguards to prevent it from becoming a tool of oppression. Owen ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com Sat Jul 17 12:09:32 2021 From: ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com (Anthony Ubah) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 08:09:32 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? In-Reply-To: References: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> Message-ID: Dear AfriNIC Community, While it is inappropriate to comment on the ongoing legal process between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation, may I say that this litigation has more so highlighted a lot of rot on how AfriNIC's processes are run? Making some of these "errors" on a resource owner's database while their case is under the lens is quite absurd. These "errors" and delays can easily be termed dubious. What else can be changed on the database of other resource owners, and to what extent of damages? Are there provisions for protecting and compensating resource owners if their services are illegitimately disrupted by some sloppy "errors" by AfriNIC on their database? We should call for a review and audit of the general process, the RSA and entries in the Whois DBs. Responsible administration so to say. I feel AfriNIC needs to implement a proper vetting process, and must show more responsibility by making staff and management liable for avoidable mistakes thereafter. >From a non-expert point of view, I suggest an adjustment should be made to the existing AfriNIC WHOIS Terms of Use, by adding a new article to address this, or on adjusting the existing sub Article D,1 https://afrinic.net/whois/terms > D - LIMITATIONS 1. AFRINIC does not guarantee the accuracy, completeness > or availability of the AFRINIC Whois Database or of the data contained > therein. I recommend this could be adjusted thus; > " D - LIMITATIONS 1. *Outside AfriNIC's ambit(/purview), as the case may > be, *AFRINIC does not guarantee the accuracy, completeness or > availability of the AFRINIC Whois Database or of the data contained > therein." I believe this also makes data accuracy part of AfriNIC's prerogative *Best Regards,* *Anthony* On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 4:31 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > > > On Jul 16, 2021, at 11:58 , Sylvain Baya wrote: > > Dear AfriNIC's Community, > > Le mercredi 14 juillet 2021, DANIEL NANGHAKA a > ?crit : > >> Someone, please help - What is the meaning of this? >> >> > Hi Daniel, > Thanks for your question, brother! > > >> [...] >> ? >> >> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 at 11:36, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < >> community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: >> >>> Could AFRINIC please comply with the court order to reinstate Cloud >>> Innovation? >>> >>> > Could AfriNIC, please, explain to this community > how an Org which is not a LIR (*Local* Internet > Registry) within the AfriNIC service region, became a resource member? > > > Cloud Innovation _IS_ an LIR i the AFRINIC service region and issues > addresses to its customers both within Africa and outside of Africa > entirely within the rules set forth in the CPM. As such, your question is > moot because the premise on which it is based is factually incorrect. > > It?s one thing when you can?t follow your own rules, but you?re now >>> violating the law and >>> >>> > ...maybe starting to complain with the signed RSA > and with the very regional RIR's CPM, would have helped enough :'-( > > > While I wish I could properly answer this, I cannot comment on open > litigation at this time. I refer you to the previously posted public > documents which do include a full explanation of how AFRINIC made this > course of action necessary. > > working hard towards a contempt citation. It didn?t take long to screw up >>> our whois entries, >>> it shouldn?t take long to put them back. >>> >>> As of 12:26 PM Mauritius time, Wed. July 14, 2021: >>> >>> whois -h whois.afrinic.net 154.88.0.0 >>> 2021/07/14 1:25:44 >>> % This is the AfriNIC Whois server. >>> % The AFRINIC whois database is subject to the following terms of Use. >>> See https://afrinic.net/whois/terms >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> % Information related to '154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255' >>> >>> % No abuse contact registered for 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 >>> >>> inetnum: 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 >>> netname: CloudInnovation >>> descr: CloudInnovation infrastructure >>> country: US >> >> > > ...is this not an evidence of a AIR (*American* > Internet Registry) Org rather than a LIR? {or a GIR > (Global Internet Registry)} :-/ > > > The US Country code was inserted by AFRINIC when they defaced our whois > records. It is not the original entry, so you will have to ask AFRINIC > about its meaning and reasoning. > > Maybe this question is better suited to the > AfriNIC's BoD, as the BoD *must* always protect > AfriNIC. > > > It has been asked of the board as well. We felt that it was important for > the community to be aware of AFRINIC?s conduct and encourage members to > consider this in their decisions in the next election. > > Thanks to take it please. > > > It is unclear to me what you are asking whom to take in this request. > > For completeness and transparency, I will note that AFRINIC did eventually > restore our whois entries later that day as well as other functions as > required by the court. To the best of my knowledge, AFRINIC is, now, in > compliance with the order, though they certainly took their time to do so > vs. the expedient manner in which they committed their prior acts of > destruction. > > Owen > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geier at geier.ne.tz Sat Jul 17 14:32:42 2021 From: geier at geier.ne.tz (Frank Habicht) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 17:32:42 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? In-Reply-To: References: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> Message-ID: Hi Owen, On 16/07/2021 23:28, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: >> >> As of 12:26 PM Mauritius time, Wed. July 14, 2021: >> >> whois -h whois.afrinic.net >> 154.88.0.0? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?2021/07/14 1:25:44 >> [...] >> >> inetnum:? ? ? ? 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 >> netname:? ? ? ? CloudInnovation >> descr:? ? ? ? ? CloudInnovation infrastructure >> country:? ? ? ? US >> >> ? >> ? >> ?...is this not an evidence of a AIR (*American*? >> Internet Registry) Org rather than a LIR? {or a GIR? >> (Global Internet Registry)} :-/ > > The US Country code was inserted by AFRINIC when they defaced our whois > records. It is not the original entry, so you will have to ask AFRINIC > about its meaning and reasoning. > I have downloaded the (anonymised) DB as of June 27th (downloaded on that day), and I see the same "US" country code in there. [frank at fisi afrinic_2021-06-27]$ l total 123476 drwxrwxr-x. 2 frank frank 4096 Jun 27 17:49 . drwxr-xr-x. 15 frank root 4096 Jun 27 17:48 .. -rw-rw-r--. 1 frank frank 126427360 Jun 27 05:08 afrinic.db [frank at fisi afrinic_2021-06-27]$ grep -A 5 '154.88.0.0' afrinic.db inetnum: 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 netname: CloudInnovation descr: CloudInnovation infrastructure country: US admin-c: CIS1-AFRINIC tech-c: CIS1-AFRINIC [frank at fisi afrinic_2021-06-27]$ I am assuming "when they defaced" referred to changes in this July ? [frank at fisi afrinic_2021-06-27]$ whois -h whois.afrinic.net -- --list-versions 154.88.0.0/24 [Querying whois.afrinic.net] [whois.afrinic.net] % This is the AfriNIC Whois server. % The AFRINIC whois database is subject to the following terms of Use. See https://afrinic.net/whois/terms % Version history for INETNUM object "154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255" % You can use "--show-version rev#" to get an exact version of the object. rev# Date Op. 1 2013-08-01 09:54 ADD/UPD 2 2014-05-14 15:10 ADD/UPD 3 2016-04-16 09:48 ADD/UPD 4 2016-05-05 19:25 ADD/UPD 5 2021-07-08 20:23 ADD/UPD 6 2021-07-15 10:08 ADD/UPD [frank at fisi afrinic_2021-06-27]$ whois -h whois.afrinic.net -- --show-version 4 154.88.0.0/24 [Querying whois.afrinic.net] [whois.afrinic.net] % This is the AfriNIC Whois server. % The AFRINIC whois database is subject to the following terms of Use. See https://afrinic.net/whois/terms % Version 4 of object "154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255" % This version was a UPDATE operation on 2016-05-05 19:25 % You can use "--list-versions" to get a list of versions for an object. inetnum: 154.88.0.0 - 154.88.0.255 netname: CloudInnovation descr: CloudInnovation infrastructure country: US admin-c: CIS1-AFRINIC tech-c: CIS1-AFRINIC status: ASSIGNED PA mnt-by: CIL1-MNT mnt-routes: CIL1-MNT source: AFRINIC # Filtered Owen, is my data shown incorrect somewhere? Thanks, Frank From geier at geier.ne.tz Sat Jul 17 14:34:02 2021 From: geier at geier.ne.tz (Frank Habicht) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 17:34:02 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? In-Reply-To: References: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> Message-ID: <73585366-642a-1c95-20b7-af4d3e5fe059@geier.ne.tz> Hi Anthony, On 17/07/2021 15:09, Anthony Ubah wrote: > Dear AfriNIC Community, > > While it is inappropriate?to comment on the ongoing legal process > between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation, may I say that this litigation?has > more so highlighted a lot of rot on how AfriNIC's processes are run?? > > Making some of these "errors"?on a resource owner's database?while their > case is under the lens is quite absurd.?These "errors" and delays can > easily be termed dubious.? > What else can be changed on the database of other resource owners, and > to what extent of damages? Please check the email I just sent responding to Owen's email. Frank From geier at geier.ne.tz Sat Jul 17 14:43:08 2021 From: geier at geier.ne.tz (Frank Habicht) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 17:43:08 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? In-Reply-To: References: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> <355031626276504@sas1-17582c8cbad7.qloud-c.yandex.net> Message-ID: <78dd4428-1367-4f29-a877-725ee19a4034@geier.ne.tz> Hi Sylvain, On 16/07/2021 22:36, Sylvain Baya wrote: > Please download the file from AFRINIC: > > https://ftp.afrinic.net/pub/pub/dbase/afrinic.db.gz > > > > Could the DB manager, please, help us to do this? > I don't understand what your request is. Frank From ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com Sat Jul 17 14:50:43 2021 From: ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com (Anthony Ubah) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 10:50:43 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? In-Reply-To: <73585366-642a-1c95-20b7-af4d3e5fe059@geier.ne.tz> References: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> <73585366-642a-1c95-20b7-af4d3e5fe059@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: Hello Frank, Thanks for your response, that about clears this up. However, I still suggest AfriNIC needs to take up more responsibilities for the consequences of errors from within. Best regards, Anthony On Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 10:37 AM Frank Habicht wrote: > Hi Anthony, > > > On 17/07/2021 15:09, Anthony Ubah wrote: > > Dear AfriNIC Community, > > > > While it is inappropriate to comment on the ongoing legal process > > between AFRINIC and Cloud Innovation, may I say that this litigation has > > more so highlighted a lot of rot on how AfriNIC's processes are run? > > > > Making some of these "errors" on a resource owner's database while their > > case is under the lens is quite absurd. These "errors" and delays can > > easily be termed dubious. > > What else can be changed on the database of other resource owners, and > > to what extent of damages? > > > Please check the email I just sent responding to Owen's email. > > Frank > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mirriamlauren at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 21:11:11 2021 From: mirriamlauren at yahoo.com (Mirriam) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 21:11:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? In-Reply-To: References: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> <73585366-642a-1c95-20b7-af4d3e5fe059@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: <1313694383.90949.1626556271340@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Anthony,? Did you take your time to carefully analyze the Whois data Frank just shared, before jumping to conclusion? Owen is wrong and Frank is right. The "Country: US" entry has existed since 2016.? Look at the change log carefully again. Mirriam. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 5:51 PM, Anthony Ubah wrote: _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com Sat Jul 17 22:03:16 2021 From: ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com (Anthony Ubah) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 18:03:16 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? In-Reply-To: <1313694383.90949.1626556271340@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7641B882-5789-4320-812D-79C99D020BCC@delong.com> <73585366-642a-1c95-20b7-af4d3e5fe059@geier.ne.tz> <1313694383.90949.1626556271340@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello Mirriam, If you took your time to read in sequence, carefully, you won't ask this question. Regards, Anthony On Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 5:11 PM Mirriam wrote: > Hi Anthony, > > Did you take your time to carefully analyze the Whois data Frank just > shared, before jumping to conclusion? > > Owen is wrong and Frank is right. The "Country: US" entry has existed > since 2016. > > Look at the change log carefully again. > > Mirriam. > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Sat, Jul 17, 2021 at 5:51 PM, Anthony Ubah > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Sun Jul 18 05:07:13 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 22:07:13 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Why does AFRINIC continue to violate the court order? In-Reply-To: <78dd4428-1367-4f29-a877-725ee19a4034@geier.ne.tz> References: <78dd4428-1367-4f29-a877-725ee19a4034@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: Yes? turns out I erred. This /24 is, indeed properly registered for its use in the US for Cloud Innovation infrastructure in the US. I did not catch that the message I replied to was using the /24 and I reviewed the post restoration record for the parent /12 and found that it was not registered in the US. This led me to believe that the country was erroneously changed by afrinic on the /12, rather than realizing that the report was about a /24 component prefix. I stand corrected and apologize for any confusion or difficulty caused by my error. Owen > On Jul 17, 2021, at 07:43, Frank Habicht wrote: > > ?Hi Sylvain, > >> On 16/07/2021 22:36, Sylvain Baya wrote: >> Please download the file from AFRINIC: >> >> https://ftp.afrinic.net/pub/pub/dbase/afrinic.db.gz >> >> >> >> Could the DB manager, please, help us to do this? >> > > I don't understand what your request is. > > Frank > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 20 04:50:01 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 21:50:01 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Supreme Court Order in Relation to Cloud Innovation v AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <77507.1626381185@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <77507.1626381185@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 15, 2021, at 13:33 , Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > In message <337009E4-C17E-4215-82BD-D9F753831613 at delong.com>, > Owen DeLong wrote: > >> The "sub judice" rule was temporarily not in effect >> while the case was dismissed >> until such time as the appeal was accepted. This created a window during >> which we could disclose certain factual information. >> >> The "sub judice" rule only applies while there is an >> active case that is actually "sub judice" (which means >> "under the consideration of the court" basically). >> When AFRINIC succeeded in getting the case dismissed, it stopped being >> "sub judice" until such time as the judge ruled to >> reinstate the injunction pending >> the appeal. > > That's a very interesting legal theory Owen. > > May I quote you? That was my understanding from what the lawyers said to us. If I?m wrong, I guess I?ll have to apologize to the Mauritian courts. Owen From paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net Sun Jul 25 05:33:17 2021 From: paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net (Paul Wollner) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 07:33:17 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> Message-ID: <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> Dear Chair, Would you care to share with the community where this alternative source of funding is coming from? Are these funds coming from other AFRINIC reserves? How will this impact the day to day operations in AFRINIC? Regards Paul Wollner ---- On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:25:40 +0200 wrote ---- Dear AFRINIC Members, AFRINIC has been notified by one of its bank that its accounts have been temporary frozen due to legal action by Cloud Innovation Ltd. AFRINIC has not yet received the relevant information on this matter showing the basis of Cloud Innovation Ltd's claims, and AFRINIC has not yet been given the opportunity to respond to this action. It will, at the first opportunity, exercise all legal rights available to it before the Court. The Board of Directors held an urgent meeting last night. It identified alternate means of funding so that the company can cover the financial expenses incurred to run its services. Regards, Subramanian Moonesamy Chairman, AFRINIC Board of Directors _______________________________________________ Members-Discuss mailing list mailto:Members-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erickj.lagon at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 06:02:46 2021 From: erickj.lagon at gmail.com (Erick Joshua Lagon) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 14:02:46 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: I would have to build up on Paul?s questions here. As far as I know, NGOs should be transparent with their finances. It is for the convenience and assurance of their members that the services they are receiving is acquired through legal means. Does the AFRINIC have ?other financial means? that the community is not aware of? AFRINIC has been very secretive when it comes to their behavior that it raises suspicion and nothing has been addressed. I thought that we should be building a community of transparency and honesty here. I hope that the Board addresses these concerns for the sake of the community. Regards, Erick On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 1:34 PM Paul Wollner wrote: > Dear Chair, > > Would you care to share with the community where this alternative source > of funding is coming from? Are these funds coming from other AFRINIC > reserves? > > How will this impact the day to day operations in AFRINIC? > > Regards > Paul Wollner > > > > > > ---- On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:25:40 +0200 * >* wrote ---- > > Dear AFRINIC Members, > > AFRINIC has been notified by one of its bank that its accounts have > been temporary frozen due to legal action by Cloud Innovation > Ltd. AFRINIC has not yet received the relevant information on this > matter showing the basis of Cloud Innovation Ltd's claims, and > AFRINIC has not yet been given the opportunity to respond to this > action. It will, at the first opportunity, exercise all legal rights > available to it before the Court. > > The Board of Directors held an urgent meeting last night. It > identified alternate means of funding so that the company can cover > the financial expenses incurred to run its services. > > Regards, > > Subramanian Moonesamy > Chairman, > AFRINIC Board of Directors > > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chresgoro at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 07:51:33 2021 From: chresgoro at gmail.com (Christian Orozco) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 15:51:33 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Greetings to all While we respect that AFRINIC just held a meeting on the issue, can we expect sooner or later a report from the registry about how the meeting went? And most especially, I think the community deserves clarity about the identified "alternative means" as we would all like to know more about these projected financial actions. I hope that we can observe more efforts from AFRINIC to ensure transparency on its decisions and on whatever action it may choose to commit. Respectfully, Christian On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 1:34 PM Paul Wollner wrote: > Dear Chair, > > Would you care to share with the community where this alternative source > of funding is coming from? Are these funds coming from other AFRINIC > reserves? > > How will this impact the day to day operations in AFRINIC? > > Regards > Paul Wollner > > > > > > ---- On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:25:40 +0200 * >* wrote ---- > > Dear AFRINIC Members, > > AFRINIC has been notified by one of its bank that its accounts have > been temporary frozen due to legal action by Cloud Innovation > Ltd. AFRINIC has not yet received the relevant information on this > matter showing the basis of Cloud Innovation Ltd's claims, and > AFRINIC has not yet been given the opportunity to respond to this > action. It will, at the first opportunity, exercise all legal rights > available to it before the Court. > > The Board of Directors held an urgent meeting last night. It > identified alternate means of funding so that the company can cover > the financial expenses incurred to run its services. > > Regards, > > Subramanian Moonesamy > Chairman, > AFRINIC Board of Directors > > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amelnaud at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 08:53:16 2021 From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 08:53:16 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Hummmm! Je suis vraiment surpris par la r?action de certains membres on diraient qu'ils font tout pour voir Afrinic ?chouer dans sa gestion, mais ce sont eux qui ?choueront. Au lieu de f?liciter le Board d'avoir trouver le moyen quelqu'il soit d'assurer la continuit? des services, vous vous plaignez de la transparence sans m?me attendre que le rapport de leur r?union ne soit disponible. On vous demande un peu d'indulgence vis ? vis du Board qui fait de son mieux. N'en d?plaise ? ce qui cherche ? se r?jouir de leur hypoth?tique ?chec. FELLICITATION ET BON COURAGE AU BOARD. ON VOUS SOUTIENT. -- Arnaud Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 05:36, Paul Wollner a ?crit : > Dear Chair, > > Would you care to share with the community where this alternative source > of funding is coming from? Are these funds coming from other AFRINIC > reserves? > > How will this impact the day to day operations in AFRINIC? > > Regards > Paul Wollner > > > > > > ---- On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:25:40 +0200 * >* wrote ---- > > Dear AFRINIC Members, > > AFRINIC has been notified by one of its bank that its accounts have > been temporary frozen due to legal action by Cloud Innovation > Ltd. AFRINIC has not yet received the relevant information on this > matter showing the basis of Cloud Innovation Ltd's claims, and > AFRINIC has not yet been given the opportunity to respond to this > action. It will, at the first opportunity, exercise all legal rights > available to it before the Court. > > The Board of Directors held an urgent meeting last night. It > identified alternate means of funding so that the company can cover > the financial expenses incurred to run its services. > > Regards, > > Subramanian Moonesamy > Chairman, > AFRINIC Board of Directors > > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Sun Jul 25 09:33:37 2021 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 09:33:37 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net>, Message-ID: Sorry - the board doesn?t get credit for finding a potential workaround out of a hole they dug by themselves - that?s the equivalent of saying you congratulate the guy who jumped off a cliff with no parachute and some how survived. Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Arnaud AMELINA Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2021 11:53:16 AM To: Paul Wollner Cc: Community Discuss ; members-discuss ; chair Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case Hummmm! Je suis vraiment surpris par la r?action de certains membres on diraient qu'ils font tout pour voir Afrinic ?chouer dans sa gestion, mais ce sont eux qui ?choueront. Au lieu de f?liciter le Board d'avoir trouver le moyen quelqu'il soit d'assurer la continuit? des services, vous vous plaignez de la transparence sans m?me attendre que le rapport de leur r?union ne soit disponible. On vous demande un peu d'indulgence vis ? vis du Board qui fait de son mieux. N'en d?plaise ? ce qui cherche ? se r?jouir de leur hypoth?tique ?chec. FELLICITATION ET BON COURAGE AU BOARD. ON VOUS SOUTIENT. -- Arnaud Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 05:36, Paul Wollner > a ?crit : Dear Chair, Would you care to share with the community where this alternative source of funding is coming from? Are these funds coming from other AFRINIC reserves? How will this impact the day to day operations in AFRINIC? Regards Paul Wollner ---- On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:25:40 +0200 > wrote ---- Dear AFRINIC Members, AFRINIC has been notified by one of its bank that its accounts have been temporary frozen due to legal action by Cloud Innovation Ltd. AFRINIC has not yet received the relevant information on this matter showing the basis of Cloud Innovation Ltd's claims, and AFRINIC has not yet been given the opportunity to respond to this action. It will, at the first opportunity, exercise all legal rights available to it before the Court. The Board of Directors held an urgent meeting last night. It identified alternate means of funding so that the company can cover the financial expenses incurred to run its services. Regards, Subramanian Moonesamy Chairman, AFRINIC Board of Directors _______________________________________________ Members-Discuss mailing list Members-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Sun Jul 25 10:12:37 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 12:12:37 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: <70433DD3-215B-4491-9ECA-C8B3011A831D@consulintel.es> The NRO, manages a fund, if I recall correctly, contributed by the 5 RIRs, in order to secure sustainability/stability of any RIR in case of contingencies. I guess this is a contingency that can apply to that fund, so a ?loan? can be provided to pay any operational expenses while the AFRINIC accounts are frozen. So, no magic to obtain fund to continue operations, and in such way that no new court orders could froze them again, because is not ?AFRINIC? money, and don?t need to pass by the AFRINIC accounts. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet Greetings to all While we respect that AFRINIC just held a meeting on the issue, can we expect sooner or later a report from the registry about how the meeting went? And most especially, I think the community deserves clarity about the identified "alternative means" as we would all like to know more about these projected financial actions. I hope that we can observe more efforts from AFRINIC to ensure transparency on its decisions and on whatever action it may choose to commit. Respectfully, Christian On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 1:34 PM Paul Wollner wrote: Dear Chair, Would you care to share with the community where this alternative source of funding is coming from? Are these funds coming from other AFRINIC reserves? How will this impact the day to day operations in AFRINIC? Regards Paul Wollner ---- On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:25:40 +0200 wrote ---- Dear AFRINIC Members, AFRINIC has been notified by one of its bank that its accounts have been temporary frozen due to legal action by Cloud Innovation Ltd. AFRINIC has not yet received the relevant information on this matter showing the basis of Cloud Innovation Ltd's claims, and AFRINIC has not yet been given the opportunity to respond to this action. It will, at the first opportunity, exercise all legal rights available to it before the Court. The Board of Directors held an urgent meeting last night. It identified alternate means of funding so that the company can cover the financial expenses incurred to run its services. Regards, Subramanian Moonesamy Chairman, AFRINIC Board of Directors _______________________________________________ Members-Discuss mailing list Members-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Sun Jul 25 10:40:04 2021 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 10:40:04 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <70433DD3-215B-4491-9ECA-C8B3011A831D@consulintel.es> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> , <70433DD3-215B-4491-9ECA-C8B3011A831D@consulintel.es> Message-ID: If the board is incurring debt and loaning money against frozen bank accounts with no guarantee of the ability to repay those loans - that?s textbook recklesss trading and almost certainly illegal Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2021 1:12:37 PM To: Community Discuss ; members-discuss ; chair Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case The NRO, manages a fund, if I recall correctly, contributed by the 5 RIRs, in order to secure sustainability/stability of any RIR in case of contingencies. I guess this is a contingency that can apply to that fund, so a ?loan? can be provided to pay any operational expenses while the AFRINIC accounts are frozen. So, no magic to obtain fund to continue operations, and in such way that no new court orders could froze them again, because is not ?AFRINIC? money, and don?t need to pass by the AFRINIC accounts. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet Greetings to all While we respect that AFRINIC just held a meeting on the issue, can we expect sooner or later a report from the registry about how the meeting went? And most especially, I think the community deserves clarity about the identified "alternative means" as we would all like to know more about these projected financial actions. I hope that we can observe more efforts from AFRINIC to ensure transparency on its decisions and on whatever action it may choose to commit. Respectfully, Christian On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 1:34 PM Paul Wollner > wrote: Dear Chair, Would you care to share with the community where this alternative source of funding is coming from? Are these funds coming from other AFRINIC reserves? How will this impact the day to day operations in AFRINIC? Regards Paul Wollner ---- On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:25:40 +0200 > wrote ---- Dear AFRINIC Members, AFRINIC has been notified by one of its bank that its accounts have been temporary frozen due to legal action by Cloud Innovation Ltd. AFRINIC has not yet received the relevant information on this matter showing the basis of Cloud Innovation Ltd's claims, and AFRINIC has not yet been given the opportunity to respond to this action. It will, at the first opportunity, exercise all legal rights available to it before the Court. The Board of Directors held an urgent meeting last night. It identified alternate means of funding so that the company can cover the financial expenses incurred to run its services. Regards, Subramanian Moonesamy Chairman, AFRINIC Board of Directors _______________________________________________ Members-Discuss mailing list Members-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lamiaachnayti at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 11:25:55 2021 From: lamiaachnayti at gmail.com (Lamiaa Chnayti) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 12:25:55 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Ah du coup on est cens?s f?liciter et encourager l?utilisation de fonds et de moyens dont on ignore la source rien que pour assurer la continuit? des services ? Le mail du board pouvait facilement ?tre accompagn? de d?tails sur la nature des fonds utilis?s. Pourquoi l'anonymat ? Il est normal que les membres de la list commencent ? lire entre les lignes et ? trouver un raisonnement logique vu qu?il manque de transparence et de clart?. Bref, au risque de r?p?ter ce que d?autres membres on d?j? dit, je r?sume ma position en la fameuse citation : *"La fin ne justifie pas les moyens" **-Michel Houellebecq* Lamiaa On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 at 09:54, Arnaud AMELINA wrote: > Hummmm! Je suis vraiment surpris par la r?action de certains membres on > diraient qu'ils font tout pour voir Afrinic ?chouer dans sa gestion, mais > ce sont eux qui ?choueront. Au lieu de f?liciter le Board d'avoir trouver > le moyen quelqu'il soit d'assurer la continuit? des services, vous vous > plaignez de la transparence sans m?me attendre que le rapport de leur > r?union ne soit disponible. On vous demande un peu d'indulgence vis ? vis > du Board qui fait de son mieux. > > N'en d?plaise ? ce qui cherche ? se r?jouir de leur hypoth?tique ?chec. > > FELLICITATION ET BON COURAGE AU BOARD. ON VOUS SOUTIENT. > > -- > Arnaud > > Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 05:36, Paul Wollner < > paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net> a ?crit : > >> Dear Chair, >> >> Would you care to share with the community where this alternative source >> of funding is coming from? Are these funds coming from other AFRINIC >> reserves? >> >> How will this impact the day to day operations in AFRINIC? >> >> Regards >> Paul Wollner >> >> >> >> >> >> ---- On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:25:40 +0200 * > >* wrote ---- >> >> Dear AFRINIC Members, >> >> AFRINIC has been notified by one of its bank that its accounts have >> been temporary frozen due to legal action by Cloud Innovation >> Ltd. AFRINIC has not yet received the relevant information on this >> matter showing the basis of Cloud Innovation Ltd's claims, and >> AFRINIC has not yet been given the opportunity to respond to this >> action. It will, at the first opportunity, exercise all legal rights >> available to it before the Court. >> >> The Board of Directors held an urgent meeting last night. It >> identified alternate means of funding so that the company can cover >> the financial expenses incurred to run its services. >> >> Regards, >> >> Subramanian Moonesamy >> Chairman, >> AFRINIC Board of Directors >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Members-Discuss mailing list >> Members-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b.sowers154 at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 22:51:43 2021 From: b.sowers154 at gmail.com (Brian Sowers) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:51:43 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Final Call for Comments on Code of Conduct Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b.sowers154 at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 12:51:19 2021 From: b.sowers154 at gmail.com (Brian Sowers) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 08:51:19 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Final Call for Comments on Code of Conduct Message-ID: <51248E8B-66A6-4D0E-BD30-3E38D3DFF3F4@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b.sowers154 at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 13:23:12 2021 From: b.sowers154 at gmail.com (Brian Sowers) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 09:23:12 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case Message-ID: If anything, the frozen bank account should be the final nail in the coffin for AFRINIC?s realization that it made a serious mistake with Cloud?s IP space. Now for this alternate means of funding, I think it?s crucial for the community to understand how stable they are. And with this understanding, the source of these funds comes naturally. Who knows how long this legal battle will last? From amelnaud at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 13:58:06 2021 From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 13:58:06 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pour votre gouverne les ressources IP ne sont pas la propri?t? de ceux a qui on les a mis ? disposition, au risque de me r?p?ter. Vous semez la confusion au sein de la communaut? par vos faux propos. Les ressources sont mises ? la disposition des entit?s sur la base des besoins qu'il a exprim?, selon le RSA s'il a menti sur ces d?clarations, ou n'a pas respect? les clauses du RSA, Afrinic peut r?clamer ces ressouces sans aucun pr?judice, c'est ?crit dans le RSA et les membres signent. Tout ce que je vois ici, ce sont les soubresauts d'un perdant et il va perdre et tous ceux qui l'ont soutenu comprendront qu'ils avaient fait fausse route. J'invite Afrinic ? bien pr?parer sa contre offensive. ? bon entendeur salut -- Arnaud Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 13:25, Brian Sowers a ?crit : > If anything, the frozen bank account should be the final nail in the > coffin for AFRINIC?s realization that it made a serious mistake with > Cloud?s IP space. Now for this alternate means of funding, I think it?s > crucial for the community to understand how stable they are. And with this > understanding, the source of these funds comes naturally. Who knows how > long this legal battle will last? > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amelnaud at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 13:59:37 2021 From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 13:59:37 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Hummmm! Toi je ne t'en veut pas du tout, j'ai juste piti?. Tu ne fais que ton travail, d?fendre ton employeur, donc tout ce que tu peux dire ou faire m'importe tr?s peu. Bon courage ? toi. AAAA./ Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 11:26, Lamiaa Chnayti a ?crit : > Ah du coup on est cens?s f?liciter et encourager l?utilisation de fonds et > de moyens dont on ignore la source rien que pour assurer la continuit? des > services ? > > Le mail du board pouvait facilement ?tre accompagn? de d?tails sur la > nature des fonds utilis?s. Pourquoi l'anonymat ? Il est normal que les > membres de la list commencent ? lire entre les lignes et ? trouver un > raisonnement logique vu qu?il manque de transparence et de clart?. > > Bref, au risque de r?p?ter ce que d?autres membres on d?j? dit, je r?sume > ma position en la fameuse citation : > > *"La fin ne justifie pas les moyens" **-Michel Houellebecq* > > Lamiaa > > > > On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 at 09:54, Arnaud AMELINA wrote: > >> Hummmm! Je suis vraiment surpris par la r?action de certains membres on >> diraient qu'ils font tout pour voir Afrinic ?chouer dans sa gestion, mais >> ce sont eux qui ?choueront. Au lieu de f?liciter le Board d'avoir trouver >> le moyen quelqu'il soit d'assurer la continuit? des services, vous vous >> plaignez de la transparence sans m?me attendre que le rapport de leur >> r?union ne soit disponible. On vous demande un peu d'indulgence vis ? vis >> du Board qui fait de son mieux. >> >> N'en d?plaise ? ce qui cherche ? se r?jouir de leur hypoth?tique ?chec. >> >> FELLICITATION ET BON COURAGE AU BOARD. ON VOUS SOUTIENT. >> >> -- >> Arnaud >> >> Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 05:36, Paul Wollner < >> paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net> a ?crit : >> >>> Dear Chair, >>> >>> Would you care to share with the community where this alternative source >>> of funding is coming from? Are these funds coming from other AFRINIC >>> reserves? >>> >>> How will this impact the day to day operations in AFRINIC? >>> >>> Regards >>> Paul Wollner >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---- On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:25:40 +0200 * >> >* wrote ---- >>> >>> Dear AFRINIC Members, >>> >>> AFRINIC has been notified by one of its bank that its accounts have >>> been temporary frozen due to legal action by Cloud Innovation >>> Ltd. AFRINIC has not yet received the relevant information on this >>> matter showing the basis of Cloud Innovation Ltd's claims, and >>> AFRINIC has not yet been given the opportunity to respond to this >>> action. It will, at the first opportunity, exercise all legal rights >>> available to it before the Court. >>> >>> The Board of Directors held an urgent meeting last night. It >>> identified alternate means of funding so that the company can cover >>> the financial expenses incurred to run its services. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Subramanian Moonesamy >>> Chairman, >>> AFRINIC Board of Directors >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Members-Discuss mailing list >>> Members-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leoso at afcast.com Sun Jul 25 14:32:04 2021 From: leoso at afcast.com (Leo S) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 22:32:04 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business Message-ID: About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price So the cost is $10,000 USD Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million so it?s 150000% profit Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action of discussion that would be detrimental to them. Of course, this is Lu Heng. He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart and knows who should pay the money to. To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the provider. The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for their address not to be revoked. very sad AFRINIC is too poor By the way, I was also their customer before -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erickj.lagon at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 15:32:28 2021 From: erickj.lagon at gmail.com (Erick Joshua Lagon) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 23:32:28 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To all, This is clearly a personal attack and defamation which holds no relevance to the real issue at hand. I encourage the Board to take down this post because we cannot achieve anything by posting ad hominem arguments. We should be addressing issues for the sake of the community and not attack anyone else here. Regards, Erick On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 10:39 PM Leo S wrote: > About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. > > They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD > per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 > USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive > maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price > > So the cost is $10,000 USD > > Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million > > so it?s 150000% profit > > Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support > from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. > > Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept > their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action > of discussion that would be detrimental to them. > > Of course, this is Lu Heng. > > He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few > years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart > and knows who should pay the money to. > > > To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use > their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network > service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia > > > I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a > circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the > provider. > > The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation > Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as > Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these > services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their > revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business > > It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support > the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for > their address not to be revoked. > > very sad AFRINIC is too poor > > By the way, I was also their customer before > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gregoire.ehoumi at yahoo.fr Sun Jul 25 15:32:39 2021 From: gregoire.ehoumi at yahoo.fr (Gregoire EHOUMI) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 11:32:39 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 25, 2021, at 1:33 AM, Paul Wollner wrote: > > Dear Chair, > > Would you care to share with the community where this alternative source of funding is coming from? Are these funds coming from other AFRINIC reserves? If I'm not mistaken, you have been associated with Cloud Innovation which is behind this nth court case to be heard and from which we are confident that the laws shall be applied and everyone will have to bear the consequences of the actions Are you now Interested in how the organization manages its risks to continue serving members including cloud innovation as your resources are still be managed ? Gregoire > How will this impact the day to day operations in AFRINIC? > > Regards > Paul Wollner > > > > > > ---- On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:25:40 +0200 wrote ---- > > Dear AFRINIC Members, > > AFRINIC has been notified by one of its bank that its accounts have > been temporary frozen due to legal action by Cloud Innovation > Ltd. AFRINIC has not yet received the relevant information on this > matter showing the basis of Cloud Innovation Ltd's claims, and > AFRINIC has not yet been given the opportunity to respond to this > action. It will, at the first opportunity, exercise all legal rights > available to it before the Court. > > The Board of Directors held an urgent meeting last night. It > identified alternate means of funding so that the company can cover > the financial expenses incurred to run its services. > > Regards, > > Subramanian Moonesamy > Chairman, > AFRINIC Board of Directors > > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dndannang at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 15:39:32 2021 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 18:39:32 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some community members want to kill AFRINIC. These members do not have passion for AFRICA as a region and are against AFRICA internet and technology development. On Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 6:33 PM Erick Joshua Lagon wrote: > To all, > > This is clearly a personal attack and defamation which holds no relevance > to the real issue at hand. I encourage the Board to take down this post > because we cannot achieve anything by posting ad hominem arguments. We > should be addressing issues for the sake of the community and not attack > anyone else here. > > Regards, > Erick > > On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 10:39 PM Leo S wrote: > >> About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. >> >> They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD >> per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 >> USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive >> maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price >> >> So the cost is $10,000 USD >> >> Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million >> >> so it?s 150000% profit >> >> Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support >> from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. >> >> Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept >> their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action >> of discussion that would be detrimental to them. >> >> Of course, this is Lu Heng. >> >> He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few >> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart >> and knows who should pay the money to. >> >> >> To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use >> their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network >> service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia >> >> >> I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a >> circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the >> provider. >> >> The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation >> Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as >> Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these >> services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their >> revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business >> >> It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support >> the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for >> their address not to be revoked. >> >> very sad AFRINIC is too poor >> >> By the way, I was also their customer before >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meriemdayday at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 15:53:45 2021 From: meriemdayday at gmail.com (Meriem Dayday) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 16:53:45 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, This is a direct violation of the CoC. Disclosing such information and data without the company?s consent is a clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the concerned person. Having a business or other relationship with the said company does not give you the right to divulge such details on a public mailing list. That is quite appalling. Please refrain from violating the CoC and attacking entities in such manner. It can only be troublesome. I am urging the PDWG chairs to act immediately by sanctioning the sender and deleting this delicate email from the list. Best, Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 15:39, Leo S a ?crit : > About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. > > They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD > per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 > USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive > maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price > > So the cost is $10,000 USD > > Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million > > so it?s 150000% profit > > Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support > from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. > > Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept > their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action > of discussion that would be detrimental to them. > > Of course, this is Lu Heng. > > He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few > years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart > and knows who should pay the money to. > > > To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use > their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network > service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia > > > I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a > circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the > provider. > > The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation > Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as > Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these > services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their > revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business > > It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support > the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for > their address not to be revoked. > > very sad AFRINIC is too poor > > By the way, I was also their customer before > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leoso at afcast.com Sun Jul 25 16:03:51 2021 From: leoso at afcast.com (Leo S) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 00:03:51 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry I know I said something bad for Cloud Innovation Ltd, but this is the truth. If they want to sue me, there is no problem, please come to Myanmar. On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 11:53 PM Meriem Dayday wrote: > Hello, > > This is a direct violation of the CoC. > > Disclosing such information and data without the company?s consent is a > clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the > concerned person. > > Having a business or other relationship with the said company does not > give you the right to divulge such details on a public mailing list. That > is quite appalling. > > Please refrain from violating the CoC and attacking entities in such > manner. It can only be troublesome. > > I am urging the PDWG chairs to act immediately by sanctioning the sender > and deleting this delicate email from the list. > > > Best, > > Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 15:39, Leo S a ?crit : > >> About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. >> >> They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD >> per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 >> USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive >> maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price >> >> So the cost is $10,000 USD >> >> Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million >> >> so it?s 150000% profit >> >> Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support >> from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. >> >> Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept >> their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action >> of discussion that would be detrimental to them. >> >> Of course, this is Lu Heng. >> >> He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few >> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart >> and knows who should pay the money to. >> >> >> To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use >> their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network >> service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia >> >> >> I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a >> circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the >> provider. >> >> The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation >> Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as >> Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these >> services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their >> revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business >> >> It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support >> the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for >> their address not to be revoked. >> >> very sad AFRINIC is too poor >> >> By the way, I was also their customer before >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Sun Jul 25 16:09:34 2021 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 16:09:34 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: What absolute nonsense - unless there is an NDA protecting the relationship people are free to disclose. That?s like saying I can?t state that I buy jeans from party X - internet services from party Y - or eat a particular brand of chocolate. Sorry unless there are confidentiality clauses in place - absolute rubbish - and if there are - that is between the buyer and the seller and has nothing to do with anyone on here Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Meriem Dayday Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2021 6:53:45 PM To: Leo S Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business Hello, This is a direct violation of the CoC. Disclosing such information and data without the company?s consent is a clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the concerned person. Having a business or other relationship with the said company does not give you the right to divulge such details on a public mailing list. That is quite appalling. Please refrain from violating the CoC and attacking entities in such manner. It can only be troublesome. I am urging the PDWG chairs to act immediately by sanctioning the sender and deleting this delicate email from the list. Best, Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 15:39, Leo S > a ?crit : About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price So the cost is $10,000 USD Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million so it?s 150000% profit Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action of discussion that would be detrimental to them. Of course, this is Lu Heng. He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart and knows who should pay the money to. To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the provider. The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for their address not to be revoked. very sad AFRINIC is too poor By the way, I was also their customer before _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goubi.wijdane at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 16:16:12 2021 From: goubi.wijdane at gmail.com (Wijdane Goubi) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 18:16:12 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a blatant personal attack, and I'm still baffled as to why such attacks are still tolerated. As a result, I'm asking the board to remove this, and I'm asking the community to address similar behaviors when people are attacked in their person. Continuing to engage in such actions is both urgent and dangerous; it only serves to hold us back as a community. Therefore, I urge the community to call out those who engage in such behaviors and work together to make this community a better place for all of us. Regards, Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 18:06, Leo S a ?crit : > Sorry I know I said something bad for Cloud Innovation Ltd, but this is > the truth. If they want to sue me, there is no problem, please come to > Myanmar. > > > On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 11:53 PM Meriem Dayday > wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> This is a direct violation of the CoC. >> >> Disclosing such information and data without the company?s consent is a >> clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the >> concerned person. >> >> Having a business or other relationship with the said company does not >> give you the right to divulge such details on a public mailing list. That >> is quite appalling. >> >> Please refrain from violating the CoC and attacking entities in such >> manner. It can only be troublesome. >> >> I am urging the PDWG chairs to act immediately by sanctioning the sender >> and deleting this delicate email from the list. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 15:39, Leo S a ?crit : >> >>> About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. >>> >>> They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD >>> per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 >>> USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive >>> maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price >>> >>> So the cost is $10,000 USD >>> >>> Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million >>> >>> so it?s 150000% profit >>> >>> Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking >>> support from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. >>> >>> Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept >>> their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action >>> of discussion that would be detrimental to them. >>> >>> Of course, this is Lu Heng. >>> >>> He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few >>> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart >>> and knows who should pay the money to. >>> >>> >>> To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use >>> their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network >>> service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia >>> >>> >>> I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a >>> circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the >>> provider. >>> >>> The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation >>> Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as >>> Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these >>> services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their >>> revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business >>> >>> It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support >>> the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for >>> their address not to be revoked. >>> >>> very sad AFRINIC is too poor >>> >>> By the way, I was also their customer before >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Sun Jul 25 16:20:23 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 18:20:23 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How such information could be confidential? Everybody knows the details about the cost of resources, whois data is public, companies need to have records of their accounts, etc. By the way, emails can?t be deleted from the archive, we already discussed that a couple of times, unless there is a court order asking for that. Finally, this is not the PDWG. Hello, This is a direct violation of the CoC. Disclosing such information and data without the company?s consent is a clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the concerned person. Having a business or other relationship with the said company does not give you the right to divulge such details on a public mailing list. That is quite appalling. Please refrain from violating the CoC and attacking entities in such manner. It can only be troublesome. I am urging the PDWG chairs to act immediately by sanctioning the sender and deleting this delicate email from the list. Best, Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 15:39, Leo S a ?crit : About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price So the cost is $10,000 USD Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million so it?s 150000% profit Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action of discussion that would be detrimental to them. Of course, this is Lu Heng. He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart and knows who should pay the money to. To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the provider. The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for their address not to be revoked. very sad AFRINIC is too poor By the way, I was also their customer before _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Sun Jul 25 16:20:28 2021 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 16:20:28 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I?m a little confused - can you clarify which part of what post is a personal attack - there are multiple posts in this thread. The statement about people don?t wanting africa to succeed would be my guess but I wanna be sure Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Wijdane Goubi Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2021 7:16:12 PM To: Leo S Cc: Community Discuss Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business This is a blatant personal attack, and I'm still baffled as to why such attacks are still tolerated. As a result, I'm asking the board to remove this, and I'm asking the community to address similar behaviors when people are attacked in their person. Continuing to engage in such actions is both urgent and dangerous; it only serves to hold us back as a community. Therefore, I urge the community to call out those who engage in such behaviors and work together to make this community a better place for all of us. Regards, Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 18:06, Leo S > a ?crit : Sorry I know I said something bad for Cloud Innovation Ltd, but this is the truth. If they want to sue me, there is no problem, please come to Myanmar. On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 11:53 PM Meriem Dayday > wrote: Hello, This is a direct violation of the CoC. Disclosing such information and data without the company?s consent is a clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the concerned person. Having a business or other relationship with the said company does not give you the right to divulge such details on a public mailing list. That is quite appalling. Please refrain from violating the CoC and attacking entities in such manner. It can only be troublesome. I am urging the PDWG chairs to act immediately by sanctioning the sender and deleting this delicate email from the list. Best, Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 15:39, Leo S > a ?crit : About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price So the cost is $10,000 USD Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million so it?s 150000% profit Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action of discussion that would be detrimental to them. Of course, this is Lu Heng. He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart and knows who should pay the money to. To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the provider. The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for their address not to be revoked. very sad AFRINIC is too poor By the way, I was also their customer before _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leoso at afcast.com Sun Jul 25 16:26:59 2021 From: leoso at afcast.com (Leo S) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 00:26:59 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Exactly, I am not particularly opposed to their IP leasing business. With the current exhaustion of IP addresses, many small ISPs have no choice but to obtain IP addresses from them. Large ISPs will choose to purchase IP addresses directly. such as alibabacloud. The current situation poses risks to users who rent their IP addresses. I think the problem itself is AFRINIC's own problem. Who allocated 7 million addresses to them? As far as I know, even providers like OVH do not have 7 million IP addresses. And a paper company can get 7 million IP addresses. On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 12:09 AM Andrew Alston < Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote: > What absolute nonsense - unless there is an NDA protecting the > relationship people are free to disclose. > > That?s like saying I can?t state that I buy jeans from party X - internet > services from party Y - or eat a particular brand of chocolate. > > Sorry unless there are confidentiality clauses in place - absolute rubbish > - and if there are - that is between the buyer and the seller and has > nothing to do with anyone on here > > Andrew > > Get Outlook for iOS > ------------------------------ > *From:* Meriem Dayday > *Sent:* Sunday, July 25, 2021 6:53:45 PM > *To:* Leo S > *Cc:* community-discuss at afrinic.net > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and > their business > > Hello, > > This is a direct violation of the CoC. > > Disclosing such information and data without the company?s consent is a > clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the > concerned person. > > Having a business or other relationship with the said company does not > give you the right to divulge such details on a public mailing list. That > is quite appalling. > > Please refrain from violating the CoC and attacking entities in such > manner. It can only be troublesome. > > I am urging the PDWG chairs to act immediately by sanctioning the sender > and deleting this delicate email from the list. > > > Best, > > Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 15:39, Leo S a ?crit : > > About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. > > They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD > per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 > USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive > maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price > > So the cost is $10,000 USD > > Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million > > so it?s 150000% profit > > Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support > from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. > > Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept > their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action > of discussion that would be detrimental to them. > > Of course, this is Lu Heng. > > He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few > years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart > and knows who should pay the money to. > > > To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use > their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network > service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia > > > I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a > circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the > provider. > > The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation > Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as > Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these > services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their > revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business > > It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support > the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for > their address not to be revoked. > > very sad AFRINIC is too poor > > By the way, I was also their customer before > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bejansilence04 at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 16:39:56 2021 From: bejansilence04 at gmail.com (Bejani Silence) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 18:39:56 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, This is so irrelevant. As a community let's not ingage in any form of personal attack that seeks to divert us from looking at the real issues at hand. This post deserves to be removed as soon as possible. Thank you, Bejani Silence Mahlaule On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, 18:27 Leo S, wrote: > Exactly, I am not particularly opposed to their IP leasing business. With > the current exhaustion of IP addresses, many small ISPs have no choice but > to obtain IP addresses from them. Large ISPs will choose to purchase IP > addresses directly. such as alibabacloud. > The current situation poses risks to users who rent their IP addresses. I > think the problem itself is AFRINIC's own problem. Who allocated 7 million > addresses to them? As far as I know, even providers like OVH do not have 7 > million IP addresses. And a paper company can get 7 million IP addresses. > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 12:09 AM Andrew Alston < > Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote: > >> What absolute nonsense - unless there is an NDA protecting the >> relationship people are free to disclose. >> >> That?s like saying I can?t state that I buy jeans from party X - internet >> services from party Y - or eat a particular brand of chocolate. >> >> Sorry unless there are confidentiality clauses in place - absolute >> rubbish - and if there are - that is between the buyer and the seller and >> has nothing to do with anyone on here >> >> Andrew >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Meriem Dayday >> *Sent:* Sunday, July 25, 2021 6:53:45 PM >> *To:* Leo S >> *Cc:* community-discuss at afrinic.net >> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and >> their business >> >> Hello, >> >> This is a direct violation of the CoC. >> >> Disclosing such information and data without the company?s consent is a >> clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the >> concerned person. >> >> Having a business or other relationship with the said company does not >> give you the right to divulge such details on a public mailing list. That >> is quite appalling. >> >> Please refrain from violating the CoC and attacking entities in such >> manner. It can only be troublesome. >> >> I am urging the PDWG chairs to act immediately by sanctioning the sender >> and deleting this delicate email from the list. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 15:39, Leo S a ?crit : >> >> About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. >> >> They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD >> per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 >> USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive >> maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price >> >> So the cost is $10,000 USD >> >> Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million >> >> so it?s 150000% profit >> >> Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support >> from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. >> >> Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept >> their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action >> of discussion that would be detrimental to them. >> >> Of course, this is Lu Heng. >> >> He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few >> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart >> and knows who should pay the money to. >> >> >> To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use >> their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network >> service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia >> >> >> I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a >> circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the >> provider. >> >> The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation >> Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as >> Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these >> services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their >> revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business >> >> It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support >> the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for >> their address not to be revoked. >> >> very sad AFRINIC is too poor >> >> By the way, I was also their customer before >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mirriamlauren at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 17:03:22 2021 From: mirriamlauren at yahoo.com (Mirriam) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 17:03:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2006813474.664239.1627232602101@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Leo, You are a very resourceful human and you could be a remote witness on behalf of Afrinic in this matter with the ongoing court cases. Mirriam Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 7:04 PM, Leo S wrote: _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lamiaachnayti at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 17:34:54 2021 From: lamiaachnayti at gmail.com (Lamiaa Chnayti) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 18:34:54 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <2006813474.664239.1627232602101@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2006813474.664239.1627232602101@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Putting away whether Leo is resourceful or not, Leo?s opinion does not represent the AFRINIC community. The term ?on behalf of? is bewildering? Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 18:04, Mirriam via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> a ?crit : > Hi Leo, > > You are a very resourceful human and you could be a remote witness on > behalf of Afrinic in this matter with the ongoing court cases. > > Mirriam > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 7:04 PM, Leo S > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -- Lamiaa CHNAYTI -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goubi.wijdane at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 17:46:20 2021 From: goubi.wijdane at gmail.com (Wijdane Goubi) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 19:46:20 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *? Of course, this is Lu Heng.* *He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart and knows who should pay the money to. ?* > Leo?s statement here hints that this guy called Lu Heng has engaged in some sort of bribing. How is this not personal attack defamation? Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 18:20, Andrew Alston < Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> a ?crit : > I?m a little confused - can you clarify which part of what post is a > personal attack - there are multiple posts in this thread. The statement > about people don?t wanting africa to succeed would be my guess but I wanna > be sure > > Andrew > > Get Outlook for iOS > ------------------------------ > *From:* Wijdane Goubi > *Sent:* Sunday, July 25, 2021 7:16:12 PM > *To:* Leo S > *Cc:* Community Discuss > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and > their business > > > This is a blatant personal attack, and I'm still baffled as to why such > attacks are still tolerated. As a result, I'm asking the board to remove > this, and I'm asking the community to address similar behaviors when people > are attacked in their person. > > Continuing to engage in such actions is both urgent and dangerous; it only > serves to hold us back as a community. Therefore, I urge the community to > call out those who engage in such behaviors and work together to make this > community a better place for all of us. > > > Regards, > > Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 18:06, Leo S a ?crit : > > Sorry I know I said something bad for Cloud Innovation Ltd, but this is > the truth. If they want to sue me, there is no problem, please come to > Myanmar. > > > On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 11:53 PM Meriem Dayday > wrote: > > Hello, > > This is a direct violation of the CoC. > > Disclosing such information and data without the company?s consent is a > clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the > concerned person. > > Having a business or other relationship with the said company does not > give you the right to divulge such details on a public mailing list. That > is quite appalling. > > Please refrain from violating the CoC and attacking entities in such > manner. It can only be troublesome. > > I am urging the PDWG chairs to act immediately by sanctioning the sender > and deleting this delicate email from the list. > > > Best, > > Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 15:39, Leo S a ?crit : > > About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. > > They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD > per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 > USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive > maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price > > So the cost is $10,000 USD > > Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million > > so it?s 150000% profit > > Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support > from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. > > Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept > their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action > of discussion that would be detrimental to them. > > Of course, this is Lu Heng. > > He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few > years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart > and knows who should pay the money to. > > > To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use > their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network > service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia > > > I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a > circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the > provider. > > The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation > Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as > Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these > services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their > revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business > > It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support > the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for > their address not to be revoked. > > very sad AFRINIC is too poor > > By the way, I was also their customer before > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leoso at afcast.com Sun Jul 25 17:56:19 2021 From: leoso at afcast.com (Leo S) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 01:56:19 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: RIPE transfer records are public. anyone can view and access it if you want. On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 1:46 AM Wijdane Goubi wrote: > *? Of course, this is Lu Heng.* > > *He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few > years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart > and knows who should pay the money to. ?* > > > > > Leo?s statement here hints that this guy called Lu Heng has engaged in > some sort of bribing. How is this not personal attack defamation? > > Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 18:20, Andrew Alston < > Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> a ?crit : > >> I?m a little confused - can you clarify which part of what post is a >> personal attack - there are multiple posts in this thread. The statement >> about people don?t wanting africa to succeed would be my guess but I wanna >> be sure >> >> Andrew >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Wijdane Goubi >> *Sent:* Sunday, July 25, 2021 7:16:12 PM >> *To:* Leo S >> *Cc:* Community Discuss >> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and >> their business >> >> >> This is a blatant personal attack, and I'm still baffled as to why such >> attacks are still tolerated. As a result, I'm asking the board to remove >> this, and I'm asking the community to address similar behaviors when people >> are attacked in their person. >> >> Continuing to engage in such actions is both urgent and dangerous; it >> only serves to hold us back as a community. Therefore, I urge the community >> to call out those who engage in such behaviors and work together to make >> this community a better place for all of us. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 18:06, Leo S a ?crit : >> >> Sorry I know I said something bad for Cloud Innovation Ltd, but this is >> the truth. If they want to sue me, there is no problem, please come to >> Myanmar. >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 11:53 PM Meriem Dayday >> wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> This is a direct violation of the CoC. >> >> Disclosing such information and data without the company?s consent is a >> clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the >> concerned person. >> >> Having a business or other relationship with the said company does not >> give you the right to divulge such details on a public mailing list. That >> is quite appalling. >> >> Please refrain from violating the CoC and attacking entities in such >> manner. It can only be troublesome. >> >> I am urging the PDWG chairs to act immediately by sanctioning the sender >> and deleting this delicate email from the list. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 15:39, Leo S a ?crit : >> >> About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. >> >> They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD >> per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 >> USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive >> maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price >> >> So the cost is $10,000 USD >> >> Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million >> >> so it?s 150000% profit >> >> Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support >> from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. >> >> Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept >> their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action >> of discussion that would be detrimental to them. >> >> Of course, this is Lu Heng. >> >> He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few >> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart >> and knows who should pay the money to. >> >> >> To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use >> their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network >> service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia >> >> >> I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a >> circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the >> provider. >> >> The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation >> Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as >> Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these >> services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their >> revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business >> >> It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support >> the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for >> their address not to be revoked. >> >> very sad AFRINIC is too poor >> >> By the way, I was also their customer before >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mirriamlauren at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 18:09:24 2021 From: mirriamlauren at yahoo.com (Mirriam) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 18:09:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <2006813474.664239.1627232602101@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <815483483.673282.1627236564080@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Lamiia, If Leo does not represent Afrinic community, what makes you think that you do? We welcome internet community opinion from people from Myanmar like Leo who are shading light to the corruption. Mirriam. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 8:35 PM, Lamiaa Chnayti wrote: Putting away whether Leo is resourceful or not, Leo?s opinion does not represent the AFRINIC community. The term ?on behalf of? is bewildering? Le?dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 18:04, Mirriam via Community-Discuss a ?crit?: Hi Leo, You are a very resourceful human and you could be a remote witness on behalf of Afrinic in this matter with the ongoing court cases. Mirriam Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 7:04 PM, Leo S wrote: _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- Lamiaa CHNAYTI -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lamiaachnayti at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 19:02:15 2021 From: lamiaachnayti at gmail.com (Lamiaa Chnayti) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 20:02:15 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <815483483.673282.1627236564080@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2006813474.664239.1627232602101@mail.yahoo.com> <815483483.673282.1627236564080@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey Miriam, You?re absolutely right ! I don?t speak on behalf of an entire community and neither does Leo or anyone else in this discussion. I recommend you re-read my comment before speculating thoughts that I have never expressed.. And since we?re at it, let me add that there is a huge difference between welcoming opinions from individuals and telling them they can *represent Afrinic* in an ongoing court case. But anyways, now that we got that cleared out, what corruption are you referring to exactly? Are you making an ad hominem attack to someone specifically? Lamiaa On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 at 19:09, Mirriam wrote: > Hi Lamiia, > > If Leo does not represent Afrinic community, what makes you think that you > do? > > We welcome internet community opinion from people from Myanmar like Leo > who are shading light to the corruption. > > > Mirriam. > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 8:35 PM, Lamiaa Chnayti > wrote: > Putting away whether Leo is resourceful or not, Leo?s opinion does not > represent the AFRINIC community. The term ?on behalf of? is bewildering? > > Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 18:04, Mirriam via Community-Discuss < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> a ?crit : > > Hi Leo, > > You are a very resourceful human and you could be a remote witness on > behalf of Afrinic in this matter with the ongoing court cases. > > Mirriam > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 7:04 PM, Leo S > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > -- > Lamiaa CHNAYTI > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net Sun Jul 25 19:06:33 2021 From: paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net (Paul Wollner) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 21:06:33 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: <17adf0fd068.117cfae9c190789.5765929321328669765@africaoncloud.net> Gregoire, Mine is an independent company. As a paid up resource member, it is my right to ask the questions I'm asking and I'll always be concerned about the management of AFRINIC resource.? Chair, please enforce CoC on Gregoire for accusations without proof. Regards Paul Wollner ---- On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 17:32:39 +0200 Gregoire EHOUMI wrote ---- On Jul 25, 2021, at 1:33 AM, Paul Wollner wrote: Dear Chair, Would you care to share with the community where this alternative source of funding is coming from? Are these funds coming from other AFRINIC reserves? If I'm not mistaken, you have been associated with Cloud Innovation which is behind this nth court case to be heard and from which we are confident that the laws shall be applied and everyone will have to bear the consequences of the actions Are you now Interested in how the organization manages its risks to continue serving members including cloud innovation as your resources are still be managed ? Gregoire How will this impact the day to day operations in AFRINIC? Regards Paul Wollner ---- On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:25:40 +0200 wrote ---- Dear AFRINIC Members, AFRINIC has been notified by one of its bank that its accounts have been temporary frozen due to legal action by Cloud Innovation Ltd. AFRINIC has not yet received the relevant information on this matter showing the basis of Cloud Innovation Ltd's claims, and AFRINIC has not yet been given the opportunity to respond to this action. It will, at the first opportunity, exercise all legal rights available to it before the Court. The Board of Directors held an urgent meeting last night. It identified alternate means of funding so that the company can cover the financial expenses incurred to run its services. Regards, Subramanian Moonesamy Chairman, AFRINIC Board of Directors _______________________________________________ Members-Discuss mailing list mailto:Members-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Sun Jul 25 20:23:29 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 13:23:29 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <31299.1627244609@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Meriem Dayday wrote: >This is a direct violation of the CoC. No, actually, it isn't. The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use of it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is effectively public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any number of public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net, etc.) If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it an affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the telescope and then just describe what they saw? And if so, then what is next? Book burning? >Disclosing such information and data without the company's consent is a >clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the >concerned person. OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different obvious logical problems. First, the Internet is *not* a private network. Fact's about what various companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to learn, without needing the consent of the companies inolved. That is the nature of the Internet. If you want to run your own closed private intranet, then go head. Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last detail of your corporate operations utterly secret. But the minute any company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange for being a part of, and a participant on this great communications experiment we call the Internet. I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud Innovation. And yet even well before today I already determined for myself that well more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered IPv4 address space was being deployed to other continents. This is not a state secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100% public sources. Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same information. Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate question, and one which I myself do not have an answer to. In any case, the courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. But the mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its AFRINIC-assigned resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the available public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets. Any attempt to portray them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship. The second logical problem with the statement above is contained in the part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the concerned person." Exactly so! If the guy who posted the material you are reacting to was willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE OF the possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for defamation, then why are YOU worried about it? Why should AFRINIC be worried about it? Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation lawsuit is only a problem for the guy who posted the (allegedly) defamatory text, and he obviiously was willing to take the risk in order to express his opinion, SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? Here again, shouting down in the original poster in this manner appears to me to be just another a heavy-handed attempt at pointless censorship. I hope that we here can all have open and frank discusions of all of the issues now of concern to AFRINIC without these kinds of attempts to muzzle dissenting viewpoints based on perfectly silly arguments. Regards, rfg From mje at posix.co.za Sun Jul 25 20:24:53 2021 From: mje at posix.co.za (Mark Elkins) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 22:24:53 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Resignation Message-ID: <452ee68e-b909-6043-2547-765660424a49@posix.co.za> Dear community, I've handed the Chair of the AFRINIC Board my resignation - effective immediate. I'm still under NDA so can't say much. I do disagree with what is happening and feel that I have been grossly mislead. The current situation has been brewing for months - long before I joined. I do have a personal view that the "Assisted Review" program is misguided and needs to be terminated and its effects reversed. It would seem to be the cause of much friction. Thank you for your support and votes. -- Mark James ELKINS? -? Posix Systems - (South) Africa mje at posix.co.za?????? Tel: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za Posix SystemsVCARD for MJ Elkins -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: abessive_logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6410 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: QR-MJElkins.png Type: image/png Size: 2163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Sun Jul 25 21:02:18 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 14:02:18 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <31450.1627246938@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Leo S wrote: >Sorry I know I said something bad for Cloud Innovation Ltd, but this is the >truth. If they want to sue me, there is no problem, please come to Myanmar. +1 It is not "defamation" against the Catholic Chruch to say that the earth revolves around the sun, rather than the other way around. That fact, and the facts that were posted about Cloud Innovation's use and deployment of its assigned number resources are *not* secret or private business information. These things may be independently observed and verified by anyone who simply raises his eyes from the Bible long enough to look through the telescope. The Internet is *not* a private endeavor, and there exists an abundance of public information that allows pretty much anyone to determine who is routing what and to where. Regards, rfg P.S. I don't think that even Lu Heng himself has ever made any attempt to deny the publicly available facts of how his assigned IPv4 space has been deployed. Even he himself has not argued and will not argue that all of his assigned IP space, or even a majority thereof, is being routed to Africa. Rather, his argument is just that he is allowed, under all relevant rules and contracts, to do whatever he likes with his already-assigned IP space. And it is now up to the courts to determine if he is right or wrong about that, in a formal and legal sense. From rfg at tristatelogic.com Sun Jul 25 21:47:03 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 14:47:03 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <31647.1627249623@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Leo S wrote: >Who allocated 7 million addresses to them? I dislike imprecision. The actual and exact number is 6,291,456 IPv4 addresses, i.e. two /11s and two /12s, as follows: 45.192.0.0/12 154.80.0.0/12 154.192.0.0/11 156.224.0.0/11 Regards, rfg From mirriamlauren at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 23:36:48 2021 From: mirriamlauren at yahoo.com (Mirriam) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 23:36:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <17adf0fd068.117cfae9c190789.5765929321328669765@africaoncloud.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> <17adf0fd068.117cfae9c190789.5765929321328669765@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: <1419292575.706242.1627256208764@mail.yahoo.com> Paul, Like Ronald has been stating....These Publicly available records show otherwise for those who care to look? and Gregoire is correct 1. https://bgp.he.net/AS328608#_whois 2. https://bgp.he.net/AS328608#_prefixes Mirriam. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 10:07 PM, Paul Wollner wrote: _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 23:56:56 2021 From: ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com (Anthony Ubah) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 19:56:56 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Leo S, Is this a case of 'Naming and Shaming', a 'Public outcry' or an 'Intervention'? I am very much confused right now. Although this mailinglist is a general community fora, this still doesn't sound like the proper channel for this discuss. Also, I still can't place my hand on the motive behind this thread. The timing is odd as well... You have highlighted details and Data of Cloud innovation, and also confess to being a beneficiary of this 'loot'(if I may). Is this post about AFRINIC, Internet, Cloud Innovation, or personal issues with the person, Lu Heng. At what point did you put on the moral hat, or have you been edged off the table you once dined in, and now seeking retribution? ? IMO, your email was clearly thought-out and drafted. If your concerns are as stated above, for results, rather than initiating fruitless discuss in the community with this, seek proper channels to funnel your concerns and issues. If litigation is what you seek, put together your evidence and witnesses, and file a court case. This community will back you. Kind regards, Anthony On Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 10:40 AM Leo S wrote: > About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. > > They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD > per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 > USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive > maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price > > So the cost is $10,000 USD > > Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million > > so it?s 150000% profit > > Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support > from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. > > Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept > their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action > of discussion that would be detrimental to them. > > Of course, this is Lu Heng. > > He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few > years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart > and knows who should pay the money to. > > > To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use > their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network > service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia > > > I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a > circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the > provider. > > The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation > Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as > Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these > services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their > revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business > > It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support > the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for > their address not to be revoked. > > very sad AFRINIC is too poor > > By the way, I was also their customer before > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 00:07:31 2021 From: ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com (Anthony Ubah) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 20:07:31 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Resignation In-Reply-To: <452ee68e-b909-6043-2547-765660424a49@posix.co.za> References: <452ee68e-b909-6043-2547-765660424a49@posix.co.za> Message-ID: Oh AFRINIC! Can someone please tell me Why is there a Non-disclosure Agreement for a public service role as this? What's hidden behind the curtains of our transparent community? Looks like this form we've known is all smokes and screens. Can we crack open the cans of worms already? Kind regards, Anthony On Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 4:27 PM Mark Elkins wrote: > Dear community, > > I've handed the Chair of the AFRINIC Board my resignation - effective > immediate. I'm still under NDA so can't say much. I do disagree with what > is happening and feel that I have been grossly mislead. The current > situation has been brewing for months - long before I joined. > > I do have a personal view that the "Assisted Review" program is misguided > and needs to be terminated and its effects reversed. It would seem to be > the cause of much friction. > > Thank you for your support and votes. > -- > > Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa > mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 <+27826010496> > For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za > > [image: Posix Systems][image: VCARD for MJ Elkins] > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: abessive_logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6410 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: QR-MJElkins.png Type: image/png Size: 2163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: QR-MJElkins.png Type: image/png Size: 2163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Mon Jul 26 02:04:11 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 19:04:11 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <32377.1627265051@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Wijdane Goubi wrote: >*He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few >years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart >and knows who should pay the money to. > >>Leo's statement here hints that this guy called Lu Heng has engaged in >some sort of bribing. How is this not personal attack defamation? I am forced to agree that Leo's second sentence, as quoted above, contitutes "casting aspersions" and in the absence of hard supporting evidence it was inappropriate, uncalled for, and contributed only heat and no light to the present discussion. I made the exact same sort of mistake myself, right here on this mailing list, back in 2016, and later publicly apologized for that. Perhaps that explains why I am less inclined that others to make a huge issue out of such utterances when they are made in the heat of the moment and without adequate thought. I think that it should be sufficient to politely ask Leo to retract that one sentence, to apologize, and then let it go at that. We already have more than enough wars to fight, tribal and otherwise, and we shouldn't be looking for reasons to start up new ones just based on this or that ill-considered statement that may be made by any of us during those times when our passions override our reason. Regards, rfg From ibeanusielvis at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 03:26:31 2021 From: ibeanusielvis at gmail.com (Ibeanusi Elvis) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 12:26:31 +0900 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <32377.1627265051@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <32377.1627265051@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <65EA2D35-E7DB-4BAE-A37D-B72256205416@gmail.com> Hello, This is information of whatever anyone might choose to call it from Leo, shades no light to present discussion at hand. To me, this is a clear defamation and personal attack to this "Lu Heng? guy. This is a clear violation of the Code of Conduct and there should be no question whether this is a personal attack or not. Best, Elvis. > On Jul 26, 2021, at 11:04, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > In message > Wijdane Goubi wrote: > >> *He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few >> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart >> and knows who should pay the money to. >> >>> Leo's statement here hints that this guy called Lu Heng has engaged in >> some sort of bribing. How is this not personal attack defamation? > > I am forced to agree that Leo's second sentence, as quoted above, contitutes > "casting aspersions" and in the absence of hard supporting evidence it was > inappropriate, uncalled for, and contributed only heat and no light to > the present discussion. > > I made the exact same sort of mistake myself, right here on this mailing > list, back in 2016, and later publicly apologized for that. Perhaps that > explains why I am less inclined that others to make a huge issue out of > such utterances when they are made in the heat of the moment and without > adequate thought. > > I think that it should be sufficient to politely ask Leo to retract that > one sentence, to apologize, and then let it go at that. We already have > more than enough wars to fight, tribal and otherwise, and we shouldn't be > looking for reasons to start up new ones just based on this or that > ill-considered statement that may be made by any of us during those times > when our passions override our reason. > > > Regards, > rfg > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss From subs at retornam.com Mon Jul 26 04:43:38 2021 From: subs at retornam.com (retornam) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 21:43:38 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Resignation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <545A3B74-D5A2-483F-BB23-A0628EAF49D1@retornam.com> AFRINIC has more drama than a telenovela or a soap opera. It?s sad to see an organization tasked with improving and sustaining the growth of a secure, stable and robust internet across the African continent go through so much turmoil. The drama and disagreements make it less attractive for members who genuinely want to see the organization succeed from contributing. > On Jul 25, 2021, at 17:10, Anthony Ubah wrote: > > ? > Oh AFRINIC! > > Can someone please tell me Why is there a Non-disclosure Agreement for a public service role as this? What's hidden behind the curtains of our transparent community? > > > Looks like this form we've known is all smokes and screens. > > > Can we crack open the cans of worms already? > > > Kind regards, > > Anthony > >> On Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 4:27 PM Mark Elkins wrote: >> Dear community, >> >> I've handed the Chair of the AFRINIC Board my resignation - effective immediate. I'm still under NDA so can't say much. I do disagree with what is happening and feel that I have been grossly mislead. The current situation has been brewing for months - long before I joined. >> >> I do have a personal view that the "Assisted Review" program is misguided and needs to be terminated and its effects reversed. It would seem to be the cause of much friction. >> >> Thank you for your support and votes. >> >> -- >> Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa >> mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 >> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From comms at afrinic.net Mon Jul 26 07:53:19 2021 From: comms at afrinic.net (AFRINIC Communication) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 11:53:19 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Reminder on the AFRINIC Code of Conduct Message-ID: <63BE6A8D-BEE0-4B1F-8C0B-BD00D8A2EA1C@afrinic.net> Dear Colleagues, We would like to remind you all to adhere to the AFRINIC code of conduct which ensures that discussions are kept professional especially in times of uncertainty and misinformation. It is only natural that people with different opinions, values and perspectives would find themselves in situations where they do not see eye to eye. We ask you to share your thoughts while being mindful of others? opinions, values, and perspectives. We would like to thank the active community members who have reached out, publicly or privately voicing their trust and support to the organisation. We also appreciate that others are still waiting on more information to be shared and we renew our promise to share everything we can when it is legally possible to do so. AFRINIC has and always will serve the best interests of the African continent and its members who are working on building our African digital future. AFRINIC also recognises its role as a player in the global Internet administration system and all decisions made take that fact into consideration. Please read the following blog post for more information on the AFRINIC Code of Conduct: https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct Kind regards, AFRINIC Communications ????????????????????????????... Chers coll?gues, Nous souhaitons vous rappeler ? tous d'adh?rer au code de conduite de l'AFRINIC qui garantit que les discussions restent professionnelles, surtout en p?riode d'incertitude et de d?sinformation. Il est tout ? fait naturel que des personnes ayant des opinions, des valeurs et des perspectives diff?rentes se retrouvent dans des situations o? elles ne sont pas d'accord. Nous vous demandons de partager vos pens?es tout en ?tant attentif aux opinions, valeurs et perspectives des autres. Nous tenons ? remercier les membres actifs de la communaut? qui nous ont fait part, publiquement ou en priv?, de leur confiance et de leur soutien ? l'organisation. Nous appr?cions ?galement le fait que d'autres attendent toujours plus d'informations ? partager et nous renouvelons notre promesse de partager tout ce que nous pouvons quand il est l?galement possible de le faire. AFRINIC a toujours servi et servira toujours les meilleurs int?r?ts du continent africain et de ses membres qui travaillent ? la construction de notre avenir num?rique africain. AFRINIC reconna?t ?galement son r?le d'acteur dans le syst?me mondial d'administration de l'Internet et toutes les d?cisions prises tiennent compte de ce fait. Veuillez lire l'article de blog suivant pour plus d'informations sur le Code de conduite d'AFRINIC : https://afrinic.net/20200903-code-of-conduct. Cordialement, AFRINIC Communications From tech at cloudinnovation.org Mon Jul 26 07:53:56 2021 From: tech at cloudinnovation.org (tech) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 15:53:56 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Litigations and Supreme Court Orders concerning AFRINIC Message-ID: <17ae1ce60d1.127fdf68e236704.8279698606168072887@cloudinnovation.org> July 26, 2021:We have noticed that there have been recent news, rumours, and debates over the litigations between Cloud Innovation Ltd (?CI?) and AFRINIC, and AFRINIC?s actions against Cl about CI?s AFRINIC membership and the corresponding number resources. This may have led to significant concerns from our customers over our service and business. We would like to take this chance to explain what has happened and reiterate our current situation so as to dispel rumours and maintain the trust the market has in CI as the leading IP address solution provider. Recently, the Supreme Court of Mauritius has granted two court orders, with AFRINIC making one undertaking relevant to the said matters ? proving that CI has been operating and using its number resources as an AFRINIC member in a completely legitimate manner. The said three legal proceedings are listed below: Injunction Order made by Supreme Court on July 13, 2021 (Attachment A) A judge?s order dated 13 July 2021 was granted in favour of CI restraining and prohibiting AFRINIC from terminating our membership and reclaiming our number resources. AFRINIC, in its communications with CI, clearly stated that whilst they were duly notified with the court Order and formally requested to comply, they deliberately refused to obey and comply with the said court Order and refused to reinstate the membership of CI. Undertaking given by AFRINIC on July 15, 2021 (Attachment B) On 15 July 2021, the CEO of AFRINIC appeared before the Judge in Chambers of the Supreme Court of Mauritius and gave an undertaking to comply with the said Order above in its entirety. Notwithstanding the formal undertaking given by the CEO on behalf of AFRINIC, the latter refused to reinstate the membership of CI and only reconsidered its position after being warned of contempt of court proceedings. The membership of Cl was finally reinstated many hours later during the night of 15 July 2021. Provisional Order of Attachment of funds in favour of Cloud Innovation issued on 23 July 2021(Attachment C) By way of a Judge?s Order dated 23 July 2021, the funds of AFRINIC held in bank accounts at SBM Bank ( Mauritius ) Ltd and Mauritius Commercial Bank Ltd, up to the sum of USD 50 Million, have been attached in favour of CI, pursuant to its claim for damages against AFRINIC as a result of the aforesaid unlawful termination and illegal acts and doings against CI. Considering everything above, it clearly indicates that the actions taken by AFRINIC against CI are being done in bad faith and upon frivolous grounds to tarnish the reputation of CI. As an AFRINIC member in good standing, CI has consistently abided by relevant laws and policies and strives to contribute to the community to the best of our ability. We have never intended to take any action against AFRINIC, but we are also obligated to take the appropriate measures to protect ourselves, the hundreds of our customers, and hundreds of millions of end-users. Up to this day, we still welcome the chance of AFRINIC coming to an understanding of its own fault and taking the relevant culpability and responsibility that would remedy the situation. In doing so, we at CI would be open any time to any reasonable resolution proposed by AFRINIC. We hope that we have, by setting out the recent events, addressed all the concerns and clarified all the rumours circulating in the market lately. We deeply and sincerely appreciate the continuous trust from our customers in us and our service. We hope to clear any concerns that may have arisen and any false rumours about our operations. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Press Release 20210726-Cloud Innovation.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 974678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From leoso at afcast.com Mon Jul 26 07:56:48 2021 From: leoso at afcast.com (Leo S) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 15:56:48 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <65EA2D35-E7DB-4BAE-A37D-B72256205416@gmail.com> References: <32377.1627265051@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <65EA2D35-E7DB-4BAE-A37D-B72256205416@gmail.com> Message-ID: These addresses are worth more than 100 million US dollars. If the address is revoked. For them, they will face a loss of 90% of their income Forced to close business. They will go all out, For Cloud Innovation Ltd, this is more than 100 million US dollars in cash. For AFRINIC it's a mere $10,000 USD. Actions that can be taken in the face of such a large amount of money so I think AFRINIC may fail finally or compromise. This is good news for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the IP address for the end user. On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 11:30 AM Ibeanusi Elvis wrote: > Hello, > > This is information of whatever anyone might choose to call it from Leo, > shades no light to present discussion at hand. > To me, this is a clear defamation and personal attack to this "Lu Heng? > guy. > This is a clear violation of the Code of Conduct and there should be no > question whether this is a personal attack or not. > > Best, > Elvis. > > > On Jul 26, 2021, at 11:04, Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: > > > > In message < > CAKKt+fDLeYDt7jQVMVSrUuH5OUhL4XvvPb1bbiKSCx5wocguYg at mail.gmail.com> > > Wijdane Goubi wrote: > > > >> *He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few > >> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart > >> and knows who should pay the money to. > >> > >>> Leo's statement here hints that this guy called Lu Heng has engaged in > >> some sort of bribing. How is this not personal attack defamation? > > > > I am forced to agree that Leo's second sentence, as quoted above, > contitutes > > "casting aspersions" and in the absence of hard supporting evidence it > was > > inappropriate, uncalled for, and contributed only heat and no light to > > the present discussion. > > > > I made the exact same sort of mistake myself, right here on this mailing > > list, back in 2016, and later publicly apologized for that. Perhaps that > > explains why I am less inclined that others to make a huge issue out of > > such utterances when they are made in the heat of the moment and without > > adequate thought. > > > > I think that it should be sufficient to politely ask Leo to retract that > > one sentence, to apologize, and then let it go at that. We already have > > more than enough wars to fight, tribal and otherwise, and we shouldn't be > > looking for reasons to start up new ones just based on this or that > > ill-considered statement that may be made by any of us during those times > > when our passions override our reason. > > > > > > Regards, > > rfg > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Community-Discuss mailing list > > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leoso at afcast.com Mon Jul 26 08:11:38 2021 From: leoso at afcast.com (Leo S) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 16:11:38 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <31299.1627244609@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <31299.1627244609@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: Hi Ronald Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block allocated. This is not in 199x year. On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > In message < > CALm9Cbn+R9oen9+9YBjfbK5gGTcmEmZ1yhxgDfw04OTC3MxeZg at mail.gmail.com> > Meriem Dayday wrote: > > >This is a direct violation of the CoC. > > No, actually, it isn't. > > The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use of > it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is effectively > public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any number of > public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net, etc.) > > If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it an > affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the > telescope and then just describe what they saw? And if so, then what > is next? Book burning? > > >Disclosing such information and data without the company's consent is a > >clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the > >concerned person. > > OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different obvious > logical problems. > > First, the Internet is *not* a private network. Fact's about what various > companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to learn, > without needing the consent of the companies inolved. That is the nature > of the Internet. If you want to run your own closed private intranet, > then go head. Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last > detail of your corporate operations utterly secret. But the minute any > company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it > *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange for being > a part of, and a participant on this great communications experiment we > call the Internet. > > I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud > Innovation. > And yet even well before today I already determined for myself that well > more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered IPv4 > address space was being deployed to other continents. This is not a state > secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100% public > sources. Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same > information. > > Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its > assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific > RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate question, > and one which I myself do not have an answer to. In any case, the > courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. But the > mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its AFRINIC-assigned > resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the available > public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets. Any attempt to portray > them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship. > > The second logical problem with the statement above is contained in the > part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences > on the concerned person." > > Exactly so! If the guy who posted the material you are reacting to was > willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE OF the > possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for defamation, > then why are YOU worried about it? Why should AFRINIC be worried about > it? Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation lawsuit > is only a problem for the guy who posted the (allegedly) defamatory > text, and he obviiously was willing to take the risk in order to express > his opinion, SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? > > Here again, shouting down in the original poster in this manner appears > to me to be just another a heavy-handed attempt at pointless censorship. > > I hope that we here can all have open and frank discusions of all of the > issues now of concern to AFRINIC without these kinds of attempts to > muzzle dissenting viewpoints based on perfectly silly arguments. > > > Regards, > rfg > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Mon Jul 26 10:42:28 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 13:42:28 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Litigations and Supreme Court Orders concerning AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <17ae1ce60d1.127fdf68e236704.8279698606168072887@cloudinnovation.org> References: <17ae1ce60d1.127fdf68e236704.8279698606168072887@cloudinnovation.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jul 2021, 11:01 tech, wrote: > to dispel rumours and maintain the trust the market has in CI as the > leading IP address solution provider. > So the rumors are not new and they have been going on since 2014. In fact in 2014 Heng Lu wrote the below as per the rpd archive link below and see BOLD text for context. https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Lu Heng h.lu at anytimechinese.com *Sat Sep 20 00:37:13 UTC 2014 *Previous message: [rpd] Re: [afnog] A typical case of abuse of our resources!!!Next message: [rpd] A typical case of abuse of our resources!!!* Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Hi *I am very much surprised one of the board member here direct ask to break policy in order to "save the continent", in which there is nothing to save from as seems there is no resource being taking outside of the continent.because our range has been mentioned since beginning of the discussion, let me make things clear once for all:1. the resource we take are using in africa.2. we are investing in africa.* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I would welcome Heng Lu to publicly state if those statements remain true in light of* your IP address solution provision* and dont beat around the bush.! As I need to make sense of how IP leasing is helping AFRICA. Liars........ Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Mon Jul 26 11:01:03 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 14:01:03 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, 19:32 Leo S, wrote: > > The current situation poses risks to users who rent their IP addresses. I > think the problem itself is AFRINIC's own problem. Who allocated 7 million > addresses to them? As far as I know, even providers like OVH do not have 7 > million IP addresses. And a paper company can get 7 million IP addresses. > This part of the world, we call them brief case companies. So while checking some statistics with a good friend over the weekend, we just noted that actually Cloud Innovation has more IPv4 addresses than East African countries of Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda and I won't even bother posting for Rwanda, Burundi and South Sudan because its sad. If anyone cares, download the delegated file and run below command. *Kenya as a country with all its AFRINIC resource members has a total of 6099456 IPv4 addresses. **That is about 6 Million only.* $ awk -F '|' '$2=="*KE*" && $3=="ipv4" {sum+=$5} END {print sum}' delegated-afrinic-extended-20210723 *6099456* *Tanzania as a country with all its AFRINIC resource members has a total of 1037568 IPv4 addresses. **That is about 1 Million only.* $ awk -F '|' '$2=="TZ" && $3=="ipv4" {sum+=$5} END {print sum}' delegated-afrinic-extended-20210723 *1037568* *Uganda as a country with all its AFRINIC resource members has a total of 1410048 IPv4 addresses. That is 1.4 Million only.* $ awk -F '|' '$2=="UG" && $3=="ipv4" {sum+=$5} END {print sum}' delegated-afrinic-extended-20210723 *1410048* We also looked at the total number of IPv4 addresses allocated to Nigeria, one of the biggest AFRICAN economies and sadly they sit at a total of about 3Million IPv4 addresses. $ awk -F '|' '$2=="NG" && $3=="ipv4" {sum+=$5} END {print sum}' delegated-afrinic-extended-20210723 *3126784* I mean, Leo my brother, I totally resonate with your point of view on how the heck did bloody Cloud Innovation Ltd end up with 6 Million IPv4 addresses without any reasonable network on this continent. Owen always claims that it is what it is, but accountability can not be avoided and anyone who dodges attempts to be held accountable is a bad actor. *Waiting to be sued.* Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 11:39:01 2021 From: ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com (Anthony Ubah) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 07:39:01 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <32377.1627265051@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <65EA2D35-E7DB-4BAE-A37D-B72256205416@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Leo S, You are churning out awesome figures here, unarguably so. However, I wish you can spare some time to responded to my question on motive. While this is all now glaring, it is important to know if you are here shedding light, providing heat, or fanning smokes into our eyes? You seem to be baiting the community with your posts. *"This is good news for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the IP address for the end user."* *Regards,* *Anthony* On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:01 AM Leo S wrote: > These addresses are worth more than 100 million US dollars. If the address > is revoked. For them, they will face a loss of 90% of their income Forced > to close business. They will go all out, For Cloud Innovation Ltd, this is > more than 100 million US dollars in cash. For AFRINIC it's a mere $10,000 > USD. Actions that can be taken in the face of such a large amount of money > so I think AFRINIC may fail finally or compromise. > > This is good news for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the IP > address for the end user. > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 11:30 AM Ibeanusi Elvis > wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> This is information of whatever anyone might choose to call it from Leo, >> shades no light to present discussion at hand. >> To me, this is a clear defamation and personal attack to this "Lu Heng? >> guy. >> This is a clear violation of the Code of Conduct and there should be no >> question whether this is a personal attack or not. >> >> Best, >> Elvis. >> >> > On Jul 26, 2021, at 11:04, Ronald F. Guilmette >> wrote: >> > >> > In message < >> CAKKt+fDLeYDt7jQVMVSrUuH5OUhL4XvvPb1bbiKSCx5wocguYg at mail.gmail.com> >> > Wijdane Goubi wrote: >> > >> >> *He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A >> few >> >> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is >> smart >> >> and knows who should pay the money to. >> >> >> >>> Leo's statement here hints that this guy called Lu Heng has engaged in >> >> some sort of bribing. How is this not personal attack defamation? >> > >> > I am forced to agree that Leo's second sentence, as quoted above, >> contitutes >> > "casting aspersions" and in the absence of hard supporting evidence it >> was >> > inappropriate, uncalled for, and contributed only heat and no light to >> > the present discussion. >> > >> > I made the exact same sort of mistake myself, right here on this mailing >> > list, back in 2016, and later publicly apologized for that. Perhaps >> that >> > explains why I am less inclined that others to make a huge issue out of >> > such utterances when they are made in the heat of the moment and without >> > adequate thought. >> > >> > I think that it should be sufficient to politely ask Leo to retract that >> > one sentence, to apologize, and then let it go at that. We already have >> > more than enough wars to fight, tribal and otherwise, and we shouldn't >> be >> > looking for reasons to start up new ones just based on this or that >> > ill-considered statement that may be made by any of us during those >> times >> > when our passions override our reason. >> > >> > >> > Regards, >> > rfg >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Community-Discuss mailing list >> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Mon Jul 26 12:09:12 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 15:09:12 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Resignation In-Reply-To: <452ee68e-b909-6043-2547-765660424a49@posix.co.za> References: <452ee68e-b909-6043-2547-765660424a49@posix.co.za> Message-ID: Hi Mark Good luck and thank you for participating and stopping Paul Wolner. History shall remember. Cheers Noah On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, 23:30 Mark Elkins, wrote: > Dear community, > > I've handed the Chair of the AFRINIC Board my resignation - effective > immediate. I'm still under NDA so can't say much. I do disagree with what > is happening and feel that I have been grossly mislead. The current > situation has been brewing for months - long before I joined. > > I do have a personal view that the "Assisted Review" program is misguided > and needs to be terminated and its effects reversed. It would seem to be > the cause of much friction. > > Thank you for your support and votes. > -- > > Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa > mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 <+27826010496> > For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za > > [image: Posix Systems][image: VCARD for MJ Elkins] > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: abessive_logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6410 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sami.salih at outlook.com Mon Jul 26 12:38:27 2021 From: sami.salih at outlook.com (Sami Salih) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 12:38:27 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Resignation In-Reply-To: References: <452ee68e-b909-6043-2547-765660424a49@posix.co.za>, Message-ID: Salam Mark, Thank you for volunteering for the community, I personally know how much you care about developing the AFRINIC. However, if I'm in your please I will fight more, but this is your way and I/we should respect it. I hope you continue to support the organization. best of luck Sami Salih ________________________________ From: Noah Sent: Monday, July 26, 2021 3:09 PM To: Mark Elkins Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Resignation Hi Mark Good luck and thank you for participating and stopping Paul Wolner. History shall remember. Cheers Noah On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, 23:30 Mark Elkins, > wrote: Dear community, I've handed the Chair of the AFRINIC Board my resignation - effective immediate. I'm still under NDA so can't say much. I do disagree with what is happening and feel that I have been grossly mislead. The current situation has been brewing for months - long before I joined. I do have a personal view that the "Assisted Review" program is misguided and needs to be terminated and its effects reversed. It would seem to be the cause of much friction. Thank you for your support and votes. -- Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za [Posix Systems][VCARD for MJ Elkins] _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From comms at afrinic.net Mon Jul 26 12:47:16 2021 From: comms at afrinic.net (AFRINIC Communication) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 16:47:16 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <32377.1627265051@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <65EA2D35-E7DB-4BAE-A37D-B72256205416@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5CE093C6-FB95-4E27-8D34-A3488D8C990F@afrinic.net> Dear Colleagues, We kindly ask you all to refrain from continuing with this thread as it seems to be mostly geared towards personal attacks. Regardless of the motive, AFRINIC may be forced to issue warnings to those who do not comply and choose to ignore this message. Also please refer to the email sent this morning on the AFRINIC Code of Conduct: https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004278.html Regards AFRINIC Communications ?????????????????????? Chers coll?gues, Nous vous invitons ? vous abstenir de poursuivre ce fil de discussion, car il semble ?tre principalement orient? vers des attaques personnelles. Quel qu'en soit le motif, l'AFRINIC pourrait ?tre contrainte d'?mettre des avertissements ? ceux qui ne se conforment pas et choisissent d'ignorer ce message. Veuillez ?galement vous r?f?rer ? l'email que nous avons envoy? ce matin sur le code de conduite de l'AFRINIC : https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004278.html Cordialement, AFRINIC Communications > On 26 Jul 2021, at 15:39, Anthony Ubah wrote: > > Dear Leo S, > > You are churning out awesome figures here, unarguably so. However, I wish you can spare some time to responded to my question on motive. > While this is all now glaring, it is important to know if you are here shedding light, providing heat, or fanning smokes into our eyes? > You seem to be baiting the community with your posts. "This is good news for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the IP address for the end user." > > > Regards, > Anthony > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:01 AM Leo S > wrote: > These addresses are worth more than 100 million US dollars. If the address is revoked. For them, they will face a loss of 90% of their income Forced to close business. They will go all out, For Cloud Innovation Ltd, this is more than 100 million US dollars in cash. For AFRINIC it's a mere $10,000 USD. Actions that can be taken in the face of such a large amount of money so I think AFRINIC may fail finally or compromise. > > This is good news for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the IP address for the end user. > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 11:30 AM Ibeanusi Elvis > wrote: > Hello, > > This is information of whatever anyone might choose to call it from Leo, shades no light to present discussion at hand. > To me, this is a clear defamation and personal attack to this "Lu Heng? guy. > This is a clear violation of the Code of Conduct and there should be no question whether this is a personal attack or not. > > Best, > Elvis. > > > On Jul 26, 2021, at 11:04, Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: > > > > In message > > > Wijdane Goubi > wrote: > > > >> *He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few > >> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart > >> and knows who should pay the money to. > >> > >>> Leo's statement here hints that this guy called Lu Heng has engaged in > >> some sort of bribing. How is this not personal attack defamation? > > > > I am forced to agree that Leo's second sentence, as quoted above, contitutes > > "casting aspersions" and in the absence of hard supporting evidence it was > > inappropriate, uncalled for, and contributed only heat and no light to > > the present discussion. > > > > I made the exact same sort of mistake myself, right here on this mailing > > list, back in 2016, and later publicly apologized for that. Perhaps that > > explains why I am less inclined that others to make a huge issue out of > > such utterances when they are made in the heat of the moment and without > > adequate thought. > > > > I think that it should be sufficient to politely ask Leo to retract that > > one sentence, to apologize, and then let it go at that. We already have > > more than enough wars to fight, tribal and otherwise, and we shouldn't be > > looking for reasons to start up new ones just based on this or that > > ill-considered statement that may be made by any of us during those times > > when our passions override our reason. > > > > > > Regards, > > rfg > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Community-Discuss mailing list > > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erickj.lagon at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 13:01:24 2021 From: erickj.lagon at gmail.com (Erick Joshua Lagon) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 21:01:24 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Resignation In-Reply-To: References: <452ee68e-b909-6043-2547-765660424a49@posix.co.za> Message-ID: Hello Mark, We are thankful for your services for the Community. We are wishing you well on your endeavors. And for the Board, what is this ?assisted review? that the Community is not aware of? Are there behind the scenes projects that everyone is not aware of? I hope that the Board addresses these issues for the sake of everyone. Regards, Erick On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 8:39 PM Sami Salih wrote: > Salam Mark, > > Thank you for volunteering for the community, I personally know how much > you care about developing the AFRINIC. However, if I'm in your please I > will fight more, but this is your way and I/we should respect it. > I hope you continue to support the organization. > > best of luck > > *Sami Salih* > ------------------------------ > *From:* Noah > *Sent:* Monday, July 26, 2021 3:09 PM > *To:* Mark Elkins > *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Resignation > > Hi Mark > > Good luck and thank you for participating and stopping Paul Wolner. > > History shall remember. > > Cheers > Noah > > On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, 23:30 Mark Elkins, wrote: > > Dear community, > > I've handed the Chair of the AFRINIC Board my resignation - effective > immediate. I'm still under NDA so can't say much. I do disagree with what > is happening and feel that I have been grossly mislead. The current > situation has been brewing for months - long before I joined. > > I do have a personal view that the "Assisted Review" program is misguided > and needs to be terminated and its effects reversed. It would seem to be > the cause of much friction. > > Thank you for your support and votes. > -- > > Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa > mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 <+27826010496> > For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za > > [image: Posix Systems][image: VCARD for MJ Elkins] > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chresgoro at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 14:11:52 2021 From: chresgoro at gmail.com (Christian Orozco) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 22:11:52 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Resignation In-Reply-To: <452ee68e-b909-6043-2547-765660424a49@posix.co.za> References: <452ee68e-b909-6043-2547-765660424a49@posix.co.za> Message-ID: Hello! First of all, I'd like to wish you the best in your future endeavors. I am not aware that an NDA applies to your situation and I am sure the community is curious why such exists on your side (why is there even a need?). Your resignation is proof that AFRINIC is really in one of its darkest times. This really heightens the need for everyone to speak up and demand AFRINIC to answer the questions thrown at it, more so, since you viewed this "Assisted Review" as inappropriate. However, it seems like the details of that program are not quite accessible to everyone yet. Hoping to know more about it. Respectfully, Christian On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Mark Elkins wrote: > Dear community, > > I've handed the Chair of the AFRINIC Board my resignation - effective > immediate. I'm still under NDA so can't say much. I do disagree with what > is happening and feel that I have been grossly mislead. The current > situation has been brewing for months - long before I joined. > > I do have a personal view that the "Assisted Review" program is misguided > and needs to be terminated and its effects reversed. It would seem to be > the cause of much friction. > > Thank you for your support and votes. > -- > > Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa > mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 <+27826010496> > For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za > > [image: Posix Systems][image: VCARD for MJ Elkins] > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: abessive_logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6410 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: QR-MJElkins.png Type: image/png Size: 2163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ibeanusielvis at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 15:45:55 2021 From: ibeanusielvis at gmail.com (Ibeanusi Elvis) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 00:45:55 +0900 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Resignation In-Reply-To: References: <452ee68e-b909-6043-2547-765660424a49@posix.co.za> Message-ID: Another resignation? This goes a long way to infer that there?s something?s that might be going on within the inner circles and behind the closed doors of the AFRINIC. Transparency is one the supposed to be amongst the pillars of the AFRINIC organization. With the numerous discussions on the irregularities and shenanigans surrounding the Board and the CEO, I think they should be the one resigning. Best, Elvis. On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 23:13 Christian Orozco wrote: > Hello! > > First of all, I'd like to wish you the best in your future endeavors. I am > not aware that an NDA applies to your situation and I am sure the community > is curious why such exists on your side (why is there even a need?). Your > resignation is proof that AFRINIC is really in one of its darkest times. > This really heightens the need for everyone to speak up and demand AFRINIC > to answer the questions thrown at it, more so, since you viewed this > "Assisted Review" as inappropriate. However, it seems like the details of > that program are not quite accessible to everyone yet. Hoping to know more > about it. > > > Respectfully, > Christian > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Mark Elkins wrote: > >> Dear community, >> >> I've handed the Chair of the AFRINIC Board my resignation - effective >> immediate. I'm still under NDA so can't say much. I do disagree with what >> is happening and feel that I have been grossly mislead. The current >> situation has been brewing for months - long before I joined. >> >> I do have a personal view that the "Assisted Review" program is misguided >> and needs to be terminated and its effects reversed. It would seem to be >> the cause of much friction. >> >> Thank you for your support and votes. >> -- >> >> Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa >> mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 <+27826010496> >> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za >> >> [image: Posix Systems][image: VCARD for MJ Elkins] >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: abessive_logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6410 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: QR-MJElkins.png Type: image/png Size: 2163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From taiwo.oyewande88 at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 16:01:24 2021 From: taiwo.oyewande88 at gmail.com (Taiwo Oye) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 17:01:24 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <5CE093C6-FB95-4E27-8D34-A3488D8C990F@afrinic.net> References: <5CE093C6-FB95-4E27-8D34-A3488D8C990F@afrinic.net> Message-ID: It is good to see AFRINIC doing it job appropriately for once. It has been a long while!!! The personal attacks and name calling are totally unnecessary. Sorry I just had to add d last icing on the cake. > On Jul 26, 2021, at 13:49, AFRINIC Communication wrote: > > ?Dear Colleagues, > > We kindly ask you all to refrain from continuing with this thread as it seems to be mostly geared towards personal attacks. > > Regardless of the motive, AFRINIC may be forced to issue warnings to those who do not comply and choose to ignore this message. > > Also please refer to the email sent this morning on the AFRINIC Code of Conduct: > https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004278.html > > Regards > AFRINIC Communications > > ?????????????????????? > > > Chers coll?gues, > > Nous vous invitons ? vous abstenir de poursuivre ce fil de discussion, car il semble ?tre principalement orient? vers des attaques personnelles. > > Quel qu'en soit le motif, l'AFRINIC pourrait ?tre contrainte d'?mettre des avertissements ? ceux qui ne se conforment pas et choisissent d'ignorer ce message. > > Veuillez ?galement vous r?f?rer ? l'email que nous avons envoy? ce matin sur le code de conduite de l'AFRINIC : https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004278.html > > Cordialement, > AFRINIC Communications > > >> On 26 Jul 2021, at 15:39, Anthony Ubah wrote: >> >> Dear Leo S, >> >> You are churning out awesome figures here, unarguably so. However, I wish you can spare some time to responded to my question on motive. >> While this is all now glaring, it is important to know if you are here shedding light, providing heat, or fanning smokes into our eyes? >> You seem to be baiting the community with your posts. "This is good news for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the IP address for the end user." >> >> >> Regards, >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:01 AM Leo S wrote: >>> These addresses are worth more than 100 million US dollars. If the address is revoked. For them, they will face a loss of 90% of their income Forced to close business. They will go all out, For Cloud Innovation Ltd, this is more than 100 million US dollars in cash. For AFRINIC it's a mere $10,000 USD. Actions that can be taken in the face of such a large amount of money so I think AFRINIC may fail finally or compromise. >>> >>> This is good news for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the IP address for the end user. >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 11:30 AM Ibeanusi Elvis wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> This is information of whatever anyone might choose to call it from Leo, shades no light to present discussion at hand. >>>> To me, this is a clear defamation and personal attack to this "Lu Heng? guy. >>>> This is a clear violation of the Code of Conduct and there should be no question whether this is a personal attack or not. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Elvis. >>>> >>>> > On Jul 26, 2021, at 11:04, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: >>>> > >>>> > In message >>>> > Wijdane Goubi wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> *He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few >>>> >> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart >>>> >> and knows who should pay the money to. >>>> >> >>>> >>> Leo's statement here hints that this guy called Lu Heng has engaged in >>>> >> some sort of bribing. How is this not personal attack defamation? >>>> > >>>> > I am forced to agree that Leo's second sentence, as quoted above, contitutes >>>> > "casting aspersions" and in the absence of hard supporting evidence it was >>>> > inappropriate, uncalled for, and contributed only heat and no light to >>>> > the present discussion. >>>> > >>>> > I made the exact same sort of mistake myself, right here on this mailing >>>> > list, back in 2016, and later publicly apologized for that. Perhaps that >>>> > explains why I am less inclined that others to make a huge issue out of >>>> > such utterances when they are made in the heat of the moment and without >>>> > adequate thought. >>>> > >>>> > I think that it should be sufficient to politely ask Leo to retract that >>>> > one sentence, to apologize, and then let it go at that. We already have >>>> > more than enough wars to fight, tribal and otherwise, and we shouldn't be >>>> > looking for reasons to start up new ones just based on this or that >>>> > ill-considered statement that may be made by any of us during those times >>>> > when our passions override our reason. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Regards, >>>> > rfg >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From goubi.wijdane at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 16:20:58 2021 From: goubi.wijdane at gmail.com (Wijdane Goubi) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 17:20:58 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Resignation In-Reply-To: <452ee68e-b909-6043-2547-765660424a49@posix.co.za> References: <452ee68e-b909-6043-2547-765660424a49@posix.co.za> Message-ID: Greetings, Mark Thank you for your time and work, and I fully support your decision, which I feel you reached after careful consideration and deliberation. I wish you the best of success, but I'm wondering as to what transpired at AFRINIC that prompted you to resign, and it just goes to show that there are a lot of invisible things going on that we're not aware of. Furthermore, I am concerned about this "aided review," about which we are utterly unaware as a community. Behind the scenes, I believe there is a lot going on, and AFRINIC needs to explain itself. Finally, I sincerely hope that the secrecy surrounding key issues like these comes to an end because it affects our community and prevents us from growing and progressing; consequently, I request that AFRINIC provide us with reasonable answers as to what is going on. Regards, Wijdane On Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 21:27 Mark Elkins wrote: > Dear community, > > I've handed the Chair of the AFRINIC Board my resignation - effective > immediate. I'm still under NDA so can't say much. I do disagree with what > is happening and feel that I have been grossly mislead. The current > situation has been brewing for months - long before I joined. > > I do have a personal view that the "Assisted Review" program is misguided > and needs to be terminated and its effects reversed. It would seem to be > the cause of much friction. > > Thank you for your support and votes. > -- > > Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa > mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 <+27826010496> > For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za > > [image: Posix Systems][image: VCARD for MJ Elkins] > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: abessive_logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6410 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: QR-MJElkins.png Type: image/png Size: 2163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: abessive_logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6410 bytes Desc: not available URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Mon Jul 26 18:17:18 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 21:17:18 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Resignation In-Reply-To: References: <452ee68e-b909-6043-2547-765660424a49@posix.co.za> Message-ID: Folks, The fact remains that only an irresponsible resource member or those who have violated the RSA are the ones that would worry about an *Assisted Review*. *Accountability* is what the wider community has been seeking since 2014 and until accountability is achieved, friction shall not end in light of the *unfair distribution of resources*. The board should not leave any stones unturned come rain come shine. You will be threatened, bank accounts shall be frozen, attempts to be sued shall be endless, some of your colleagues shall jump ship prematurely, but stand for the truth in the midst of deceit [1]. Stand for accountability. Stand for responsibility usage of number resources as bestowed in the AFRINIC bylaws section 3.4. ICP-2 section 4 Noah [1] https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html On Mon, 26 Jul 2021, 19:26 Wijdane Goubi, wrote: > Greetings, Mark > > Thank you for your time and work, and I fully support your decision, which > I feel you reached after careful consideration and deliberation. I wish you > the best of success, but I'm wondering as to what transpired at AFRINIC > that prompted you to resign, and it just goes to show that there are a lot > of invisible things going on that we're not aware of. > Furthermore, I am concerned about this "aided review," about which we are > utterly unaware as a community. Behind the scenes, I believe there is a lot > going on, and AFRINIC needs to explain itself. > Finally, I sincerely hope that the secrecy surrounding key issues like > these comes to an end because it affects our community and prevents us from > growing and progressing; consequently, I request that AFRINIC provide us > with reasonable answers as to what is going on. > > Regards, > > Wijdane > > On Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 21:27 Mark Elkins wrote: > >> Dear community, >> >> I've handed the Chair of the AFRINIC Board my resignation - effective >> immediate. I'm still under NDA so can't say much. I do disagree with what >> is happening and feel that I have been grossly mislead. The current >> situation has been brewing for months - long before I joined. >> >> I do have a personal view that the "Assisted Review" program is misguided >> and needs to be terminated and its effects reversed. It would seem to be >> the cause of much friction. >> >> Thank you for your support and votes. >> -- >> >> Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa >> mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 <+27826010496> >> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za >> >> [image: Posix Systems][image: VCARD for MJ Elkins] >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Mon Jul 26 22:44:52 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 15:44:52 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Resignation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <36735.1627339492@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Erick Joshua Lagon wrote: >And for the Board, what is this "assisted review" that the Community is not >aware of? I was going to ask that question also, since I had never heard of it before seeing Mark E's message. I tried to google it, but other than a few brief (and uninformative) mentions of the term in some past AFRINIC Board meeting minutes from earlier this year (2021), I never found anything online that even remotely described whatever this thing is. Regards, rfg From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 01:24:41 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 18:24:41 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84D1206F-2200-449D-91A4-89C1CFF4C67A@delong.com> > On Jul 25, 2021, at 06:58 , Arnaud AMELINA wrote: > > Pour votre gouverne les ressources IP ne sont pas la propri?t? de ceux a qui on les a mis ? disposition, au risque de me r?p?ter. Vous semez la confusion au sein de la communaut? par vos faux propos. Nothing in his statement claims IP addresses are property. Nothing in Cloud Innovation?s law suit claims that, either. IP addresses are integers. Owning ?5? makes no more sense than owning a letter or even a single common word. On the other hand, owning the right(s) to a registry entry detailing a block of IP Addresses is a different matter. Registry entries (registrations) are a kind of tangible property, are routinely traded (even in the AFRINIC region which has the most restrictive policy of all RIRs in this regard), and have a value set by an active market. > Les ressources sont mises ? la disposition des entit?s sur la base des besoins qu'il a exprim?, selon le RSA s'il a menti sur ces d?clarations, ou n'a pas respect? les clauses du RSA, Afrinic peut r?clamer ces ressouces sans aucun pr?judice, c'est ?crit dans le RSA et les membres signent. Tout ce que je vois ici, ce sont les soubresauts d'un perdant et il va perdre et tous ceux qui l'ont soutenu comprendront qu'ils avaient fait fausse route. Needs change and I challenge any service provider that has been in business for 8 years or more to show that they are 100% using their resources in the exact same manner across all resources issued for that entire period of time. The internet is a dynamic place and markets dictate what services do and do not sell. This makes need a dynamic and shifting thing. Cloud Innovation filed appropriate documentation of these changes and kept their utilization within the bounds of policy as written. Nothing in policy prohibits leasing addresses independent of connectivity services. If the community wishes to prohibit this, then they should develop policy which does so. > J'invite Afrinic ? bien pr?parer sa contre offensive. I invite AFRINIC to read its own policy documents carefully, develop a sane conclusion, and bring a reasonable offer to the table in pursuit of a settlement so that this insane process can end with minimal further damage. I find the amount of damage done to the community and the membership in this unnecessary process to be completely disgusting and I thoroughly hope that the community will choose to hold the board accountable for their misdeeds in this regard. > > ? bon entendeur salut Google translates this as ?Good to know hi?, which I suspect is far from accurate. As such, I have no idea what was intended here, but I will wish you a good day as well. (That is my best guess). Owen From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 04:02:05 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 21:02:05 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: <37E771A0-66F7-48A1-8E61-164AF96B3606@delong.com> LoL? I do not know why you are surprised. This board that you favor so much has put the organization in a terrible position. They have repeatedly violated their own governing documents and the trust of both the community and their membership. They have knowingly and deliberately violated a court order, including sending a message to the Petitioner that stated their full and blatant intent to do so. In light of all this, you remain surprised that a significant fraction of the membership has lost faith and does not trust this board? I must ask you, how can you preserve faith in such individuals? This is like a religious belief that is completely unwilling to look at the plain facts. Why are you so opposed to requests that the board explain themselves? Why must you persistently attempt to silence any opposition? A good functioning transparent organization doing the right thing welcomes such scrutiny and has good answers for such questions without any difficulty and no need for delay. Indeed, even when we disagree, I get (mostly) straight answers from John Curran about any such topic and while I don?t always agree with the decisions of the ARIN board, I am at least able to understand how they regarded such decisions as being in the best interests of the membership and/or the community as well as the organization. In the case of this boards actions, they refuse to explain themselves and they offer no basis for such a belief. Such silence will only breed more suspicion and more mistrust as time goes by. Good luck preserving your faith. I personally can?t figure out how you do such a thing. Owen > On Jul 25, 2021, at 01:53 , Arnaud AMELINA wrote: > > Hummmm! Je suis vraiment surpris par la r?action de certains membres on diraient qu'ils font tout pour voir Afrinic ?chouer dans sa gestion, mais ce sont eux qui ?choueront. Au lieu de f?liciter le Board d'avoir trouver le moyen quelqu'il soit d'assurer la continuit? des services, vous vous plaignez de la transparence sans m?me attendre que le rapport de leur r?union ne soit disponible. On vous demande un peu d'indulgence vis ? vis du Board qui fait de son mieux. > > N'en d?plaise ? ce qui cherche ? se r?jouir de leur hypoth?tique ?chec. > > FELLICITATION ET BON COURAGE AU BOARD. ON VOUS SOUTIENT. > > -- > Arnaud > > Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 05:36, Paul Wollner > a ?crit : > Dear Chair, > > Would you care to share with the community where this alternative source of funding is coming from? Are these funds coming from other AFRINIC reserves? > > How will this impact the day to day operations in AFRINIC? > > Regards > Paul Wollner > > > > > > ---- On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:25:40 +0200 > wrote ---- > > Dear AFRINIC Members, > > AFRINIC has been notified by one of its bank that its accounts have > been temporary frozen due to legal action by Cloud Innovation > Ltd. AFRINIC has not yet received the relevant information on this > matter showing the basis of Cloud Innovation Ltd's claims, and > AFRINIC has not yet been given the opportunity to respond to this > action. It will, at the first opportunity, exercise all legal rights > available to it before the Court. > > The Board of Directors held an urgent meeting last night. It > identified alternate means of funding so that the company can cover > the financial expenses incurred to run its services. > > Regards, > > Subramanian Moonesamy > Chairman, > AFRINIC Board of Directors > > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 04:03:33 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 21:03:33 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <70433DD3-215B-4491-9ECA-C8B3011A831D@consulintel.es> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> <70433DD3-215B-4491-9ECA-C8B3011A831D@consulintel.es> Message-ID: <7CB5918E-D2E4-4066-84C9-F11C36D90CD1@delong.com> If that?s the case, why doesn?t the AFRINIC board simply state that as the source of their funding? Why the secrecy? It is my strong suspicion that this is not the source of their current funding. Regardless of the source, there is no valid reason for the lack of transparency. Owen > On Jul 25, 2021, at 03:12 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote: > > The NRO, manages a fund, if I recall correctly, contributed by the 5 RIRs, in order to secure sustainability/stability of any RIR in case of contingencies. > > I guess this is a contingency that can apply to that fund, so a ?loan? can be provided to pay any operational expenses while the AFRINIC accounts are frozen. > > So, no magic to obtain fund to continue operations, and in such way that no new court orders could froze them again, because is not ?AFRINIC? money, and don?t need to pass by the AFRINIC accounts. > > Regards, > Jordi > > @jordipalet > > > > > > Greetings to all > > While we respect that AFRINIC just held a meeting on the issue, can we expect sooner or later a report from the registry about how the meeting went? And most especially, I think the community deserves clarity about the identified "alternative means" as we would all like to know more about these projected financial actions. I hope that we can observe more efforts from AFRINIC to ensure transparency on its decisions and on whatever action it may choose to commit. > > > > > Respectfully, > Christian > > On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 1:34 PM Paul Wollner > wrote: >> Dear Chair, >> >> Would you care to share with the community where this alternative source of funding is coming from? Are these funds coming from other AFRINIC reserves? >> >> How will this impact the day to day operations in AFRINIC? >> >> Regards >> Paul Wollner >> >> >> >> >> >> ---- On Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:25:40 +0200 > wrote ---- >> >>> Dear AFRINIC Members, >>> >>> AFRINIC has been notified by one of its bank that its accounts have >>> been temporary frozen due to legal action by Cloud Innovation >>> Ltd. AFRINIC has not yet received the relevant information on this >>> matter showing the basis of Cloud Innovation Ltd's claims, and >>> AFRINIC has not yet been given the opportunity to respond to this >>> action. It will, at the first opportunity, exercise all legal rights >>> available to it before the Court. >>> >>> The Board of Directors held an urgent meeting last night. It >>> identified alternate means of funding so that the company can cover >>> the financial expenses incurred to run its services. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Subramanian Moonesamy >>> Chairman, >>> AFRINIC Board of Directors >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Members-Discuss mailing list >>> Members-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 04:09:43 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 21:09:43 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 25, 2021, at 08:32 , Gregoire EHOUMI via Community-Discuss wrote: > > > >> On Jul 25, 2021, at 1:33 AM, Paul Wollner > wrote: >> >> Dear Chair, >> >> Would you care to share with the community where this alternative source of funding is coming from? Are these funds coming from other AFRINIC reserves? > > > If I'm not mistaken, you have been associated with Cloud Innovation which is behind this nth court case to be heard and from which we are confident that the laws shall be applied and everyone will have to bear the consequences of the actions Wait, let me get this quote straight? Your concern is that ?everyone will bear the consequences of the laws being applied?? Does this mean that you recognize that AFRINIC has been violating the law and you are upset that Cloud Innovation availed themselves of the right to legal remediation of its abuses? If so, then I think you have misplaced your anger, sir. To the best of my knowledge, Paul Wollner is not employed by Cloud Innovation. I believe that Cloud Innovation and/or Larus might be customers of Paul?s organization, but they are also customers of AFRINIC. Does that mean that you would say that Lu Heng is associated with AFRINIC? Exactly what kind of guilt-by-association game are you trying to play here? Your accusation does not pass the basic smell test. To quote Shakespeare, ?Me thinks something is rotten?" > Are you now Interested in how the organization manages its risks to continue serving members including cloud innovation as your resources are still be managed ? I would think that anyone with resources in AFRINIC would be concerned about how the board is managing the situation. I would think that anyone with half a brain would want greater transparency from the board on this subject. Are you saying that you want this information kept secret from the members and the community? If so, for what reasons? Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 04:13:13 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 21:13:13 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <1419292575.706242.1627256208764@mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20210724092044.097c2ab0@elandnews.com> <17adc273ddf.100891432164571.3322176775190549661@africaoncloud.net> <17adf0fd068.117cfae9c190789.5765929321328669765@africaoncloud.net> <1419292575.706242.1627256208764@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 25, 2021, at 16:36 , Mirriam via Community-Discuss wrote: > > Paul, > > Like Ronald has been stating....These Publicly available records show otherwise for those who care to look and Gregoire is correct > > 1. https://bgp.he.net/AS328608#_whois This shows an independently registered ASN and does not show any relationship to Cloud Innovation. > 2. https://bgp.he.net/AS328608#_prefixes This shows that Africa on Cloud carries a number of prefixes for Cloud Innovation as well as prefixes for a number of other organizations. As such, it appears that Cloud Innovation is one of several customers doing business with Africa On Cloud. How, exactly, does this show Africa On Cloud to be ?associated? in the way Gregoire intended to imply? Owen From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 04:41:46 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 21:41:46 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Resignation In-Reply-To: References: <452ee68e-b909-6043-2547-765660424a49@posix.co.za> Message-ID: There are legitimate reasons for Mark to be fearful of remaining on such a board. I am unable to go into details on the advice of counsel, but I respect Mark?s decision even though I am disappointed by it. I, too, had hoped he would remain a lone voice for sanity in a mostly failing board. Owen > On Jul 26, 2021, at 05:38 , Sami Salih wrote: > > Salam Mark, > > Thank you for volunteering for the community, I personally know how much you care about developing the AFRINIC. However, if I'm in your please I will fight more, but this is your way and I/we should respect it. > I hope you continue to support the organization. > > best of luck > > Sami Salih > From: Noah > Sent: Monday, July 26, 2021 3:09 PM > To: Mark Elkins > Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Resignation > > Hi Mark > > Good luck and thank you for participating and stopping Paul Wolner. > > History shall remember. > > Cheers > Noah > > On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, 23:30 Mark Elkins, > wrote: > Dear community, > I've handed the Chair of the AFRINIC Board my resignation - effective immediate. I'm still under NDA so can't say much. I do disagree with what is happening and feel that I have been grossly mislead. The current situation has been brewing for months - long before I joined. > I do have a personal view that the "Assisted Review" program is misguided and needs to be terminated and its effects reversed. It would seem to be the cause of much friction. > Thank you for your support and votes. > -- > Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa > mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 > For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b.sowers154 at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 04:15:34 2021 From: b.sowers154 at gmail.com (Brian Sowers) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 00:15:34 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Resignation Message-ID: <9B7EDFD8-5540-4A1D-A863-C78AE83A5A89@gmail.com> Hi Mark, Thank you for your time at AFRINIC. No one blames you for no longer wanting to deal with AFRINIC?s asinine politics. That said, how significant a cause was the ?Assisted Review? program for your resignation? https://afrinic.net/ast/pdf/Board/afrinic-strategic-plan-2016-2020-assessment.pdf According to the pdf above, the ?Assisted Review? program is intended to improve WHOIS accuracy. On the surface, it?s not immediately clear to me how the effects of this program can be misguided. I wasn?t able to find much more information on it, and I?m just wondering what other mechanics are involved and how wide the scope of their effects is. Does your NDA prevent you from speaking more on this program? Given the abruptness of your resignation and the specificity of this program in your post, this ?Assisted Review? should now appear to become a major focal point of discussion. -Brian From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 04:44:20 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 21:44:20 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Resignation In-Reply-To: References: <452ee68e-b909-6043-2547-765660424a49@posix.co.za> Message-ID: In essence, it is AFRINIC staff choosing on their own initiative to effectively implement most of the provisions of the proposed ?Resource Review Policy? which failed to gain consensus and was eventually withdrawn by the authors. It?s unclear to what extent the board has sanctioned this staff-driven witch hunt, but sofas, it appears to persist despite it?s current consequences to date. Certainly, the board must have consented to its continuance for it to still exist. Owen > On Jul 26, 2021, at 06:01 , Erick Joshua Lagon wrote: > > Hello Mark, > > We are thankful for your services for the Community. We are wishing you well on your endeavors. > > And for the Board, what is this ?assisted review? that the Community is not aware of? Are there behind the scenes projects that everyone is not aware of? I hope that the Board addresses these issues for the sake of everyone. > > Regards, > Erick > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 8:39 PM Sami Salih > wrote: > Salam Mark, > > Thank you for volunteering for the community, I personally know how much you care about developing the AFRINIC. However, if I'm in your please I will fight more, but this is your way and I/we should respect it. > I hope you continue to support the organization. > > best of luck > > Sami Salih > From: Noah > > Sent: Monday, July 26, 2021 3:09 PM > To: Mark Elkins > > Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC > > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Resignation > > Hi Mark > > Good luck and thank you for participating and stopping Paul Wolner. > > History shall remember. > > Cheers > Noah > > On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, 23:30 Mark Elkins, > wrote: > Dear community, > > I've handed the Chair of the AFRINIC Board my resignation - effective immediate. I'm still under NDA so can't say much. I do disagree with what is happening and feel that I have been grossly mislead. The current situation has been brewing for months - long before I joined. > > I do have a personal view that the "Assisted Review" program is misguided and needs to be terminated and its effects reversed. It would seem to be the cause of much friction. > > Thank you for your support and votes. > > -- > Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa > mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.826010496 > For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 04:54:40 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 21:54:40 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Resignation In-Reply-To: References: <452ee68e-b909-6043-2547-765660424a49@posix.co.za> Message-ID: <51FCF364-C415-4B23-BDF9-1433804CBC30@delong.com> > On Jul 26, 2021, at 11:17 , Noah wrote: > > Folks, > > The fact remains that only an irresponsible resource member or those who have violated the RSA are the ones that would worry about an Assisted Review. Nope? Simply provably not true. > Accountability is what the wider community has been seeking since 2014 and until accountability is achieved, friction shall not end in light of the unfair distribution of resources. What you call ?unfair", I call ?according to policy?. AFRINIC is in violation of its own policies and governing documents and indeed, accountability is needed, but it is not particular resource members that need to be held accountable nearly so much as the AFRINIC staff and board. > The board should not leave any stones unturned come rain come shine. You will be threatened, bank accounts shall be frozen, attempts to be sued shall be endless, some of your colleagues shall jump ship prematurely, but stand for the truth in the midst of deceit [1]. Sure? Truth works for me? Truths to date in this process: + AFRINIC has violated its own policies + AFRINIC has attempted to apply policies and constraints which simply don?t exist + AFRINIC has refused to follow lawful court orders > Stand for accountability. Stand for responsibility usage of number resources as bestowed in the AFRINIC bylaws section 3.4. Accountability and responsibility work for me, too: + Hold the board accountable for their actions which have brought this problem about + Hold the staff accountable for their failure to adhere to policy + Have AFRINIC take responsibility for its failures + Hold the board responsible for their lack of transparency and eliminate or severely curtail the infamous board NDA Limit the NDA to specific privileged information such as legal strategy, attorney work product, and personnel matters only, or eliminate it entirely and depend on the good faith of board members to keep relevant matters confidential. + Require greater transparency and detail in board minutes. Include summaries of deliberations and comments attributed to board members who made them. Include a roll call vote for each resolution. I?m all for improving accountability and responsibility. Great suggestion, Noah. > > > ICP-2 section 4 ?? 4) Neutrality and impartiality in relation to all interested parties, and particularly the LIRs All organisations that receive service from the new RIR must be treated equally. The policies and guidelines proposed and implemented by the RIR need to ensure fair distribution of resources, and impartial treatment of the members/requestors. The new RIR should be established as an independent, not-for-profit and open membership association. How is this relevant in the context? > Noah > [1] https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html Do you have any reason or basis for belief that this was not true at the time of writing? To the best of my knowledge, it was, in fact, true at the time of writing. Subsequently, things changed. That?s not deceit, that?s evolution. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 05:00:59 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 22:00:59 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29C7274C-5407-4D67-8D1D-8634F1AACF85@delong.com> > On Jul 25, 2021, at 07:32 , Leo S wrote: > > About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. > They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price > > So the cost is $10,000 USD > Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million > so it?s 150000% profit > > Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. > Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action of discussion that would be detrimental to them. > > Of course, this is Lu Heng. > He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart and knows who should pay the money to. > > > To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia > > > I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the provider. You are wrong about ARIN policy here. In ARIN, you cannot use addresses leased outside of connectivity services to count as utilized in consideration of application for additional space by transfer or from ARIN, but there is no policy or violation of the RSA in using your existing space in this manner. > > The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business This is not prohibited within the AFRINIC governing documents, so I?m not sure how this is relevant. > It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for their address not to be revoked. > very sad AFRINIC is too poor Apparently, according to the board, AFRINIC has untapped financial resources that they are able to utilize, so perhaps they are not so poor as you imagine and have some collection of hidden assets. If I were a member, I?d be asking detailed questions about why these assets are not reported on their financials and how they expect to get away with being opaque when they are a not-for-profit that is supposed to be transparent about such things. > By the way, I was also their customer before By inference, i would assume this means you didn?t disapprove of their business model at the time, at least. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 05:02:03 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 22:02:03 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Really? Who, exactly, would you accuse of such a thing? Owen > On Jul 25, 2021, at 08:39 , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: > > Some community members want to kill AFRINIC. > These members do not have passion for AFRICA as a region and are against AFRICA internet and technology development. > > On Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 6:33 PM Erick Joshua Lagon > wrote: > To all, > > This is clearly a personal attack and defamation which holds no relevance to the real issue at hand. I encourage the Board to take down this post because we cannot achieve anything by posting ad hominem arguments. We should be addressing issues for the sake of the community and not attack anyone else here. > > Regards, > Erick > > On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 10:39 PM Leo S > wrote: > About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. > They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price > > So the cost is $10,000 USD > Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million > so it?s 150000% profit > > Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. > Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action of discussion that would be detrimental to them. > > Of course, this is Lu Heng. > He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart and knows who should pay the money to. > > > To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia > > > I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the provider. > > The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business > > It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for their address not to be revoked. > very sad AFRINIC is too poor > > By the way, I was also their customer before > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 05:04:45 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 22:04:45 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am not convinced that what you said is bad for Cloud Innovation. I can neither confirm nor deny the truth of what you said (I don?t have access to the necessary financial or other data). You haven?t said anything about them violating AFRINIC policy. You haven?t said anything about them violating their RSA. You haven?t said anything about them violating the AFRINIC bylaws. You?ve made some irrelevant (to this discussion) financial statements and questioned AFRINIC?s financial stability. As such, how, exactly, is this bad for Cloud Innovation? Owen > On Jul 25, 2021, at 09:03 , Leo S wrote: > > Sorry I know I said something bad for Cloud Innovation Ltd, but this is the truth. If they want to sue me, there is no problem, please come to Myanmar. > > > On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 11:53 PM Meriem Dayday > wrote: > Hello, > > This is a direct violation of the CoC. > > Disclosing such information and data without the company?s consent is a clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the concerned person. > > Having a business or other relationship with the said company does not give you the right to divulge such details on a public mailing list. That is quite appalling. > > Please refrain from violating the CoC and attacking entities in such manner. It can only be troublesome. > > I am urging the PDWG chairs to act immediately by sanctioning the sender and deleting this delicate email from the list. > > > Best, > > Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 15:39, Leo S > a ?crit : > About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. > They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price > > So the cost is $10,000 USD > Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million > so it?s 150000% profit > > Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. > Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action of discussion that would be detrimental to them. > > Of course, this is Lu Heng. > He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart and knows who should pay the money to. > > > To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia > > > I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the provider. > > The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business > > It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for their address not to be revoked. > very sad AFRINIC is too poor > > By the way, I was also their customer before > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 05:12:54 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 22:12:54 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <750C5B12-0163-40BB-937E-3A49482D00AA@delong.com> > On Jul 25, 2021, at 09:26 , Leo S wrote: > > Exactly, I am not particularly opposed to their IP leasing business. With the current exhaustion of IP addresses, many small ISPs have no choice but to obtain IP addresses from them. Large ISPs will choose to purchase IP addresses directly. such as alibabacloud. > The current situation poses risks to users who rent their IP addresses. I think the problem itself is AFRINIC's own problem. Who allocated 7 million addresses to them? As far as I know, even providers like OVH do not have 7 million IP addresses. And a paper company can get 7 million IP addresses. Now you have wandered into an inappropriate and false accusation. Cloud Innovation is NOT a ?paper company? or a ?shell corporation?. It is a legitimate business with customers, revenue, accounting, and provides (by your own admission) a valuable service to the IP number using community. Indeed, a service you found useful and valuable at one time. I don?t know who OVH is, but I can say that in general, Cloud Innovations address space is well utilized and their record-keeping is some of the most meticulous I?ve observed in the industry. Every customer provides a needs justification that would be accepted by virtually any RIR they could apply to and CI is careful not to lease to spammers and other miscreants. They are very responsive to abuse complaints and terminate problem accounts very quickly. In short, they are a real company providing a real and valuable service to the internet and a model citizen of the IP number resource using community with the exception that there is some controversy surrounding the idea of leasing numbers without a connectivity contract. What is truly silly about this is that in reality, it would be trivial for them to create connectivity to eliminate this controversy while still preserving exactly the same business model in a number of ways. Should the community pass a policy that prohibits leasing without connectivity, it will be a simple (though inconvenient) matter for Cloud Innovation to implement trivial connections to their customers while said customers continue to advertise their less specifics to the internet via their other providers. > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 12:09 AM Andrew Alston > wrote: > What absolute nonsense - unless there is an NDA protecting the relationship people are free to disclose. > > That?s like saying I can?t state that I buy jeans from party X - internet services from party Y - or eat a particular brand of chocolate. You are officially banned from Godiva? There, I said it. What are you going to do about it? :p Yes, you are correct, this is utterly silly. Owen > > Sorry unless there are confidentiality clauses in place - absolute rubbish - and if there are - that is between the buyer and the seller and has nothing to do with anyone on here > > Andrew > > Get Outlook for iOS > From: Meriem Dayday > > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2021 6:53:45 PM > To: Leo S > > Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net > > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business > > Hello, > > This is a direct violation of the CoC. > > Disclosing such information and data without the company?s consent is a clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the concerned person. > > Having a business or other relationship with the said company does not give you the right to divulge such details on a public mailing list. That is quite appalling. > > Please refrain from violating the CoC and attacking entities in such manner. It can only be troublesome. > > I am urging the PDWG chairs to act immediately by sanctioning the sender and deleting this delicate email from the list. > > > Best, > > Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 15:39, Leo S > a ?crit : > About > Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. > They > got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% > fee from the price > > So > the cost is $10,000 USD > Revenue > is 7M x 2 = 14 Million > so > it?s 150000% profit > > Part > of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. > Are > there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action of discussion that would be detrimental to them. > > Of > course, this is Lu Heng. > He > also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart and knows who should pay the money to. > > > To > rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia > > > I > don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the provider. > > The > AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these services may account for less than 10% of > their revenue. so 90% of their revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business > > It > can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for their address not to be revoked. > very > sad AFRINIC is too poor > > By > the way, I was also their customer before > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 05:17:53 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 22:17:53 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <31299.1627244609@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <31299.1627244609@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 25, 2021, at 13:23 , Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > In message > Meriem Dayday wrote: > >> This is a direct violation of the CoC. > > No, actually, it isn't. > > The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use of > it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is effectively > public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any number of > public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net, etc.) > > If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it an > affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the > telescope and then just describe what they saw? And if so, then what > is next? Book burning? Given past experiences, in Africa, more likely government-controlled internet shutdowns. As to the bit about censorship and such, I completely agree with you. There?s no basis for shouting down Leo S. Owen From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 05:24:32 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 22:24:32 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <31299.1627244609@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <745F630B-A186-481C-9704-BCA2A0869089@delong.com> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please consider the amount of space held by: Non-LIRs (end users): Hewlett Packard Apple Computer Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not: Amateur Radio (AMPR) LIRs: XFINITY/Comcast Verizon Akamai XO Communications Amazon Microsoft Google etc. The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the above organizations. Owen > On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S wrote: > > Hi Ronald > Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block allocated. This is not in 199x year. > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: > In message > > Meriem Dayday > wrote: > > >This is a direct violation of the CoC. > > No, actually, it isn't. > > The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use of > it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is effectively > public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any number of > public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net , etc.) > > If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it an > affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the > telescope and then just describe what they saw? And if so, then what > is next? Book burning? > > >Disclosing such information and data without the company's consent is a > >clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the > >concerned person. > > OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different obvious > logical problems. > > First, the Internet is *not* a private network. Fact's about what various > companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to learn, > without needing the consent of the companies inolved. That is the nature > of the Internet. If you want to run your own closed private intranet, > then go head. Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last > detail of your corporate operations utterly secret. But the minute any > company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it > *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange for being > a part of, and a participant on this great communications experiment we > call the Internet. > > I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud Innovation. > And yet even well before today I already determined for myself that well > more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered IPv4 > address space was being deployed to other continents. This is not a state > secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100% public > sources. Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same information. > > Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its > assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific > RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate question, > and one which I myself do not have an answer to. In any case, the > courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. But the > mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its AFRINIC-assigned > resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the available > public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets. Any attempt to portray > them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship. > > The second logical problem with the statement above is contained in the > part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences > on the concerned person." > > Exactly so! If the guy who posted the material you are reacting to was > willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE OF the > possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for defamation, > then why are YOU worried about it? Why should AFRINIC be worried about > it? Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation lawsuit > is only a problem for the guy who posted the (allegedly) defamatory > text, and he obviiously was willing to take the risk in order to express > his opinion, SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? > > Here again, shouting down in the original poster in this manner appears > to me to be just another a heavy-handed attempt at pointless censorship. > > I hope that we here can all have open and frank discusions of all of the > issues now of concern to AFRINIC without these kinds of attempts to > muzzle dissenting viewpoints based on perfectly silly arguments. > > > Regards, > rfg > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 05:28:04 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 22:28:04 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jul 26, 2021, at 04:01 , Noah wrote: > > > > On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, 19:32 Leo S, > wrote: > > The current situation poses risks to users who rent their IP addresses. I think the problem itself is AFRINIC's own problem. Who allocated 7 million addresses to them? As far as I know, even providers like OVH do not have 7 million IP addresses. And a paper company can get 7 million IP addresses. > > > This part of the world, we call them brief case companies. > > So while checking some statistics with a good friend over the weekend, we just noted that actually Cloud Innovation has more IPv4 addresses than East African countries of Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda and I won't even bother posting for Rwanda, Burundi and South Sudan because its sad. It also serves more end users than the population of all of those countries combined. What is your point? > If anyone cares, download the delegated file and run below command. > > Kenya as a country with all its AFRINIC resource members has a total of 6099456 IPv4 addresses. That is about 6 Million only. > > $ awk -F '|' '$2=="KE" && $3=="ipv4" {sum+=$5} END {print sum}' delegated-afrinic-extended-20210723 > 6099456 > > Tanzania as a country with all its AFRINIC resource members has a total of 1037568 IPv4 addresses. That is about 1 Million only. > > $ awk -F '|' '$2=="TZ" && $3=="ipv4" {sum+=$5} END {print sum}' delegated-afrinic-extended-20210723 > 1037568 > > Uganda as a country with all its AFRINIC resource members has a total of 1410048 IPv4 addresses. That is 1.4 Million only. > > $ awk -F '|' '$2=="UG" && $3=="ipv4" {sum+=$5} END {print sum}' delegated-afrinic-extended-20210723 > 1410048 > > We also looked at the total number of IPv4 addresses allocated to Nigeria, one of the biggest AFRICAN economies and sadly they sit at a total of about 3Million IPv4 addresses. > > $ awk -F '|' '$2=="NG" && $3=="ipv4" {sum+=$5} END {print sum}' delegated-afrinic-extended-20210723 > 3126784 > > I mean, Leo my brother, I totally resonate with your point of view on how the heck did bloody Cloud Innovation Ltd end up with 6 Million IPv4 addresses without any reasonable network on this continent. By submitting appropriate applications and justified need for the addresses to provide services to their customers within the rules and policies set by the AFRINIC board, membership, and community. > Owen always claims that it is what it is, but accountability can not be avoided and anyone who dodges attempts to be held accountable is a bad actor. I don?t see anyone trying to avoid accountability here except for perhaps the AFRINIC staff and the AFRINIC board. Cloud Innovation has been accountable for their use of addresses and continues to be. > Waiting to be sued. I can?t see any reason to sue you, you?re just not that relevant. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Tue Jul 27 06:32:10 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 23:32:10 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <37E771A0-66F7-48A1-8E61-164AF96B3606@delong.com> Message-ID: <38178.1627367530@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message <37E771A0-66F7-48A1-8E61-164AF96B3606 at delong.com>, Owen DeLong wrote: >They have knowingly and deliberately violated a court order, including sending >a message to the Petitioner that stated their full and blatant intent to do so. That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen. Can you post a link to that Owen? Perhaps what is says is not quite what you are suggesting it says. Regards, rfg From rfg at tristatelogic.com Tue Jul 27 06:54:28 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 23:54:28 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <38254.1627368868@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , Owen DeLong wrote: >> 2. https://bgp.he.net/AS328608#_prefixes > >This shows that Africa on Cloud carries a number of prefixes for >Cloud Innovation as well as prefixes for a number of other >organizations. As such, it appears that Cloud Innovation is one >of several customers doing business with Africa On Cloud. Come on Owen. Who are you kidding? The page linked to above shows that Africa on Cloud is almost entirely dependent on Cloud Innovation for its IP address space. As I think you must well know, being as you are, and like me, a resident of the U.S.A., the Republicans here in the U.S. are now trying to pretend that the so-called "Capitol Riot" of January 6th never happened... that is was all just a bunch of over-exuberant "tourists". But the videos and that visuals show clearly otherwise. Are you going to be like the Republicans? Are you going to ask people to ignore the clear evidence that's in front of their eyes? >How, exactly, does this show Africa On Cloud to be "associated" in the >way Gregoire intended to imply? Please stop making inferences about what you -believe- people had "intended" to say. If there is some doubt, then ask first before you assume. That way maybe this list can still contain some light and not just all heat. It is best to try to be generous and to *not* to assume that everyone you may have a disagreement with has a 100% black heart. In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite persuasively that there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa on Cloud on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand. I personally have no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance. But to try to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of the clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous. It is silly. Regards, rfg From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 07:07:35 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 00:07:35 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <38178.1627367530@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <38178.1627367530@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C@delong.com> > On Jul 26, 2021, at 23:32 , Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > In message <37E771A0-66F7-48A1-8E61-164AF96B3606 at delong.com>, > Owen DeLong wrote: > >> They have knowingly and deliberately violated a court order, including sending >> a message to the Petitioner that stated their full and blatant intent to do so. > > That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen. Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by Respondent to Petitioner. I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it. > Can you post a link to that Owen? Perhaps what is says is not quite > what you are suggesting it says. Since it was an email not sent to a list, I don?t believe there is a web archive of it. It does, in fact, say pretty much exactly what I am suggesting it says. A blatant statement that they will not comply with the July 13th order until after they receive the outcome of the July 15th hearing. Feel free to ask Eddy for a copy. He is the originator of said email and I have no problem with him disclosing it. If I can get permission from our legal team, despite it going against my usual etiquette of not disclosing private emails, I think this is a legitimate exception in the interests of transparency. Owen From geier at geier.ne.tz Tue Jul 27 07:26:50 2021 From: geier at geier.ne.tz (Frank Habicht) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 10:26:50 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ad88a26-f9d2-7ec6-b5f7-1ef518092fa6@geier.ne.tz> Hi Owen, On 27/07/2021 08:28, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: > > >> On Jul 26, 2021, at 04:01 , Noah > > wrote: >> So while checking some statistics with a good friend over the weekend, >> we just noted that actually Cloud Innovation has more IPv4 addresses >> than East African countries of Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda and I won't >> even bother posting for Rwanda, Burundi and South Sudan because its sad. > > It also serves more end users than the population of all of those > countries combined. What is your point? "serves" ...? with connectivity? Or by "buying" IPv4 addresses one place and "selling"/leasing them another place. this is to me closer to speculation than the stated intention of 1. the resource we take are using in africa. 2. we are investing in africa. which is a quote from https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html and which I understand was good reason to receive IPv4 addresses. *was* when it was true. Frank From rfg at tristatelogic.com Tue Jul 27 07:30:14 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 00:30:14 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <750C5B12-0163-40BB-937E-3A49482D00AA@delong.com> Message-ID: <38415.1627371014@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message <750C5B12-0163-40BB-937E-3A49482D00AA at delong.com>, Owen DeLong wrote: >Cloud Innovation is NOT a "paper company" or a "shell corporation". Reasonable people may resonably disagree about the exact definition of those specific terms. It is certainly the case that, unlike, say, Silicon Valley, or San Francisco, or New York, or Los Angeles, or Amsterdam, or London, or even Hong Kong, the Seychelles Islands do not enjoy a worldwide reputation as a hotbed of innovative young Internet companies. But of course, there are always exceptions. It might be helpful to our understanding if either you or Lu Heng would be so kind as to post some video or photographs of Cloud Innovation's sprawling, expansive, well-appointed, and well-equipped NOC in the Seychelles Islands, preferably with one of the many talented and well-trained staff networking engineers employed there holding up a copy of that day's local Seychelles newspaper, just so that we can verify. >Every customer provides a needs justification that would be accepted by >virtually any RIR they could apply to and CI is careful not to lease to >spammers and other miscreants. As I am sure you are aware Owen, the exact definition of "miscreant" when it comes to online actors varies rather dramatically from place to place across the globe. In some places, anything goes, as long as it isn't spam. Other places are rather less liberal. Just to take one example, as I understand it, in Mainland China (PRC) it is illegal to operate either online gambling web sites or online porn web sites. Can you state for the record, and definitively, that there are no such web sites, written in the Chinese language and targeting PRC nationals, that are currently hosted on any part of Cloud Innovantion's IPv4 address space? If not, then the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) might perhaps take issue with your blanket assertion that there are no "miscreants" currently making use of Cloud Innovantion's IPv4 address space. (I myself would not, but as a U.S. citizen I have a rather significantly different view on these things.) Regards, rfg From geier at geier.ne.tz Tue Jul 27 07:31:52 2021 From: geier at geier.ne.tz (Frank Habicht) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 10:31:52 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <745F630B-A186-481C-9704-BCA2A0869089@delong.com> References: <31299.1627244609@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <745F630B-A186-481C-9704-BCA2A0869089@delong.com> Message-ID: <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> Hi, did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect our customers in Africa" ? Did CI? Thanks, Frank PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity. On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: > If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please consider > the amount of space > held by: > > Non-LIRs (end users): > Hewlett Packard > Apple Computer > > Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not: > Amateur?Radio (AMPR) > > LIRs: > XFINITY/Comcast > Verizon > Akamai > XO Communications > Amazon > Microsoft > Google > etc. > > The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the > above organizations. > > Owen > > >> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S > > wrote: >> >> Hi?Ronald >> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a >> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block >> allocated. This is not in 199x year. >> >> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette >> > wrote: >> >> In message >> > >> Meriem Dayday > > wrote: >> >> >This is a direct violation of the CoC. >> >> No, actually, it isn't. >> >> The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use of >> it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is >> effectively >> public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any >> number of >> public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net , etc.) >> >> If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it an >> affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the >> telescope and then just describe what they saw?? And if so, then what >> is next?? Book burning? >> >> >Disclosing such information and data without the company's >> consent is a >> >clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the >> >concerned person. >> >> OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different >> obvious >> logical problems. >> >> First, the Internet is *not* a private network.? Fact's about what >> various >> companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to learn, >> without needing the consent of the companies inolved.? That is the >> nature >> of the Internet.? If you want to run your own closed private intranet, >> then go head.? Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last >> detail of your corporate operations utterly secret.? But the >> minute any >> company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it >> *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange >> for being >> a part of, and a participant on this great communications >> experiment we >> call the Internet. >> >> I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud >> Innovation. >> And yet even well before today I already determined for myself >> that well >> more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered IPv4 >> address space was being deployed to other continents.? This is not >> a state >> secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100% >> public >> sources.? Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same >> information. >> >> Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its >> assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific >> RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate question, >> and one which I myself do not have an answer to.? In any case, the >> courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine.? >> But the >> mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its AFRINIC-assigned >> resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the >> available >> public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets.? Any attempt to portray >> them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship. >> >> The second logical problem with the statement above is contained >> in the >> part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal >> consequences >> on the concerned person." >> >> Exactly so!? If the guy who posted the material you are reacting >> to was >> willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE OF the >> possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for defamation, >> then why are YOU worried about it?? Why should AFRINIC be worried >> about >> it?? Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation lawsuit >> is only a problem for the guy who posted the (allegedly) defamatory >> text, and he obviiously was willing to take the risk in order to >> express >> his opinion, SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? >> >> Here again, shouting down in the original poster in this manner >> appears >> to me to be just another a heavy-handed attempt at pointless >> censorship. >> >> I hope that we here can all have open and frank discusions of all >> of the >> issues now of concern to AFRINIC without these kinds of attempts to >> muzzle dissenting viewpoints based on perfectly silly arguments. >> >> >> Regards, >> rfg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > From Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net Tue Jul 27 07:34:53 2021 From: Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net (Omo Oaiya) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 08:34:53 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <38254.1627368868@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <38254.1627368868@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> > On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: > > > In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite persuasively that > there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa on Cloud > on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand. I personally have > no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I > personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that > relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance. But to try > to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of the > clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous. It is silly. It won?t be the first time we have seen this sort of behaviour from Owen. Even before he became a hired gun for Cloud Innovation. The archive abounds with examples for anyone who cares to look. AFRINIC is the registry for the African region. Like Noah says, this is a matter of accountability and a moment in AFRINIC history. The much-maligned board needs to bear this in mind and hold strong in their pursuit for equity and justice. Omo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net Tue Jul 27 07:35:15 2021 From: Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net (Omo Oaiya) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 08:35:15 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <38254.1627368868@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <38254.1627368868@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <57107A91-BCEB-4A68-88F1-B263E8619D2B@wacren.net> > On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: > > > In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite persuasively that > there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa on Cloud > on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand. I personally have > no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I > personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that > relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance. But to try > to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of the > clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous. It is silly. It won?t be the first time we have seen this sort of behaviour from Owen. Even before he became a hired gun for Cloud Innovation. The archive abounds with examples for anyone who cares to look. AFRINIC is the registry for the African region. Like Noah says, this is a matter of accountability and a moment in AFRINIC history. The much-maligned board needs to bear this in mind and hold strong in their pursuit for equity and justice. Omo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amelnaud at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 07:46:54 2021 From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 07:46:54 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C@delong.com> References: <38178.1627367530@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C@delong.com> Message-ID: Le mar. 27 juil. 2021 ? 07:10, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> a ?crit : > > > > On Jul 26, 2021, at 23:32 , Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: > > > > In message <37E771A0-66F7-48A1-8E61-164AF96B3606 at delong.com>, > > Owen DeLong wrote: > > > >> They have knowingly and deliberately violated a court order, including > sending > >> a message to the Petitioner that stated their full and blatant intent > to do so. > > > > That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen. > > Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by > Respondent to Petitioner. > > I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it. > > > Can you post a link to that Owen? Perhaps what is says is not quite > > what you are suggesting it says. > > Since it was an email not sent to a list, I don?t believe there is a web > archive of it. > > It does, in fact, say pretty much exactly what I am suggesting it says. > Exactement ce que je disais, d?sinformations, diffamation... > > A blatant statement that they will not comply with the July 13th order > until after they > receive the outcome of the July 15th hearing. > Ce qui est tout ? fait logique, ? mon humble avis, sans une notification formelle, ils ne pruvent agir, c'est ta compr?hension de la situation qui me semble erron?e. > > > Feel free to ask Eddy for a copy. He is the originator of said email and I > have no > problem with him disclosing it. If I can get permission from our legal > team, despite > it going against my usual etiquette of not disclosing private emails, I > think this is > a legitimate exception in the interests of transparency. > > > Owen > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Tue Jul 27 08:29:16 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 01:29:16 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C@delong.com> Message-ID: <38677.1627374556@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C at delong.com>, Owen DeLong wrote: >> That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen. > >Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by >Respondent to Petitioner. > >I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it. Well, no offense Owen, but I also have in my posession a document that definitively proves that you are Satan. I would like to share that with everyone, but my lawyer won't let me. Until he does however I think that everyone should just take it on faith, because I'm always right and I never lie. :-) Regards, rfg From au8692936 at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 09:42:45 2021 From: au8692936 at gmail.com (Lili Au) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 17:42:45 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> References: <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: <852257D7-1C77-48A8-B573-DBBD79EAE6B0@gmail.com> A funny discussion. Anyway, I saw many LOA that is CI authorise LARUS ( a Hong Kong company too) then LARUS authorise to their clients. Leo is correct. ? > Frank Habicht ?2021?7?27? 15:32??? > > ?Hi, > > did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect > our customers in Africa" ? > > Did CI? > > Thanks, > Frank > > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity. > >> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: >> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please consider >> the amount of space >> held by: >> >> Non-LIRs (end users): >> Hewlett Packard >> Apple Computer >> >> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not: >> Amateur Radio (AMPR) >> >> LIRs: >> XFINITY/Comcast >> Verizon >> Akamai >> XO Communications >> Amazon >> Microsoft >> Google >> etc. >> >> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the >> above organizations. >> >> Owen >> >> >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S >> > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Ronald >>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a >>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block >>> allocated. This is not in 199x year. >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette >>> > wrote: >>> >>> In message >>> > >>> Meriem Dayday >> > wrote: >>> >>>> This is a direct violation of the CoC. >>> >>> No, actually, it isn't. >>> >>> The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use of >>> it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is >>> effectively >>> public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any >>> number of >>> public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net , etc.) >>> >>> If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it an >>> affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the >>> telescope and then just describe what they saw? And if so, then what >>> is next? Book burning? >>> >>>> Disclosing such information and data without the company's >>> consent is a >>>> clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the >>>> concerned person. >>> >>> OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different >>> obvious >>> logical problems. >>> >>> First, the Internet is *not* a private network. Fact's about what >>> various >>> companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to learn, >>> without needing the consent of the companies inolved. That is the >>> nature >>> of the Internet. If you want to run your own closed private intranet, >>> then go head. Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last >>> detail of your corporate operations utterly secret. But the >>> minute any >>> company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it >>> *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange >>> for being >>> a part of, and a participant on this great communications >>> experiment we >>> call the Internet. >>> >>> I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud >>> Innovation. >>> And yet even well before today I already determined for myself >>> that well >>> more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered IPv4 >>> address space was being deployed to other continents. This is not >>> a state >>> secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100% >>> public >>> sources. Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same >>> information. >>> >>> Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its >>> assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific >>> RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate question, >>> and one which I myself do not have an answer to. In any case, the >>> courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. >>> But the >>> mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its AFRINIC-assigned >>> resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the >>> available >>> public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets. Any attempt to portray >>> them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship. >>> >>> The second logical problem with the statement above is contained >>> in the >>> part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal >>> consequences >>> on the concerned person." >>> >>> Exactly so! If the guy who posted the material you are reacting >>> to was >>> willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE OF the >>> possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for defamation, >>> then why are YOU worried about it? Why should AFRINIC be worried >>> about >>> it? Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation lawsuit >>> is only a problem for the guy who posted the (allegedly) defamatory >>> text, and he obviiously was willing to take the risk in order to >>> express >>> his opinion, SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? >>> >>> Here again, shouting down in the original poster in this manner >>> appears >>> to me to be just another a heavy-handed attempt at pointless >>> censorship. >>> >>> I hope that we here can all have open and frank discusions of all >>> of the >>> issues now of concern to AFRINIC without these kinds of attempts to >>> muzzle dissenting viewpoints based on perfectly silly arguments. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> rfg >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss From ali at hussein.me.ke Tue Jul 27 09:47:25 2021 From: ali at hussein.me.ke (Ali Hussein) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 12:47:25 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <38677.1627374556@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C@delong.com> <38677.1627374556@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: I have been following this saga for a few days now and I can't help but wonder (And this is aside from discussing the case of Cloud Innovation and AfriNIC) I want to address the process of Mauritian law. How does a court in Mauritius freeze the bank accounts of another company through ex parte proceedings? For those who might not understand what I mean - *ex parte is **done with respect to or in the interests of one side only or of an interested outside party. *This is a basic tenet in law. Was Afrinic given an opportunity to defend itself before these orders to freeze its accounts were given? Or were summons given and Afrinic ignored them? If the former is true then maybe it's time to address the issue of the domicility of Afrinic. Maybe Mauritius is too hostile for a Pan-African-based organization. How else do you interpreter this? A court giving an unprecedented ex parte ruling against an African Organization in favor of a Hongkong-based organization who we are all clear is a purveyor of African IP Addresses to organizations outside of Africa as its core business model. Let's put aside all this hullabaloo of ohh...The board didn't do this...Oooh the board should have done this! and let's address the elephant in the room. Everything else is a sideshow. *Ali Hussein* Digital Transformation Tel: +254 713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with. On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 11:31 AM Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > In message <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C at delong.com>, > Owen DeLong wrote: > > >> That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen. > > > >Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by > >Respondent to Petitioner. > > > >I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it. > > Well, no offense Owen, but I also have in my posession a document that > definitively proves that you are Satan. I would like to share that > with everyone, but my lawyer won't let me. Until he does however > I think that everyone should just take it on faith, because I'm > always right and I never lie. > :-) > > > Regards, > rfg > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iyedigoma at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 10:18:55 2021 From: iyedigoma at gmail.com (Iyedi Goma) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 11:18:55 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C@delong.com> <38677.1627374556@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: Slt ? tous, cette situation est in?dite je ne pense pas qu un autre registre a d?j? v?cu cela, c est juste dommage et triste de voir jusqu o? on est capable d aller pour servir les int?r?ts. Comment des gens qui pensent ?tre aux services du d?veloppement d une communaut? peuvent s exalter ? la mise en g?le d un compte de l institutions qu ils pr?tendent d?fendre ? comment la justice peut conclure m?me si temporaire au g?le sans pr?avis sans avoir donner un droit de defense ? la partie accus?es. nous devons dire non, cette agenda cach? que les gens ont o? il est claire que leur unique ambition est Le d?mant?lement De l.afrinic juste parcequ ils pensent que l Afrique est une vache ?.lait pour eux. serge parfait Goma Le mar. 27 juil. 2021 ? 10:50, Ali Hussein a ?crit : > I have been following this saga for a few days now and I can't help but > wonder (And this is aside from discussing the case of Cloud Innovation and > AfriNIC) I want to address the process of Mauritian law. > > How does a court in Mauritius freeze the bank accounts of another company > through ex parte proceedings? For those who might not understand what I > mean - *ex parte is **done with respect to or in the interests of one > side only or of an interested outside party. *This is a basic tenet in > law. Was Afrinic given an opportunity to defend itself before these orders > to freeze its accounts were given? Or were summons given and Afrinic > ignored them? > > If the former is true then maybe it's time to address the issue of the > domicility of Afrinic. Maybe Mauritius is too hostile for a > Pan-African-based organization. How else do you interpreter this? A court > giving an unprecedented ex parte ruling against an African Organization in > favor of a Hongkong-based organization who we are all clear is a purveyor > of African IP Addresses to organizations outside of Africa as its core > business model. > > Let's put aside all this hullabaloo of ohh...The board didn't do > this...Oooh the board should have done this! and let's address the elephant > in the room. Everything else is a sideshow. > > > *Ali Hussein* > > Digital Transformation > > > Tel: +254 713 601113 > > Twitter: @AliHKassim > > Skype: abu-jomo > > LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim > > > > > > Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely > mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the > organizations that I work with. > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 11:31 AM Ronald F. Guilmette < > rfg at tristatelogic.com> wrote: > >> In message <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C at delong.com>, >> Owen DeLong wrote: >> >> >> That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen. >> > >> >Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by >> >Respondent to Petitioner. >> > >> >I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it. >> >> Well, no offense Owen, but I also have in my posession a document that >> definitively proves that you are Satan. I would like to share that >> with everyone, but my lawyer won't let me. Until he does however >> I think that everyone should just take it on faith, because I'm >> always right and I never lie. >> :-) >> >> >> Regards, >> rfg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmurungi at wia.co.tz Tue Jul 27 10:19:22 2021 From: dmurungi at wia.co.tz (Murungi Daniel) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 13:19:22 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C@delong.com> <38677.1627374556@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <817E29CD-8F10-4247-9B8F-A9B22681F971@wia.co.tz> Dear Ali, Well stated. Regards, Murungi Daniel > On Jul 27, 2021, at 12:47 PM, Ali Hussein wrote: > > I have been following this saga for a few days now and I can't help but wonder (And this is aside from discussing the case of Cloud Innovation and AfriNIC) I want to address the process of Mauritian law. > > How does a court in Mauritius freeze the bank accounts of another company through ex parte proceedings? For those who might not understand what I mean - ex parte is done with respect to or in the interests of one side only or of an interested outside party. This is a basic tenet in law. Was Afrinic given an opportunity to defend itself before these orders to freeze its accounts were given? Or were summons given and Afrinic ignored them? > > If the former is true then maybe it's time to address the issue of the domicility of Afrinic. Maybe Mauritius is too hostile for a Pan-African-based organization. How else do you interpreter this? A court giving an unprecedented ex parte ruling against an African Organization in favor of a Hongkong-based organization who we are all clear is a purveyor of African IP Addresses to organizations outside of Africa as its core business model. > > Let's put aside all this hullabaloo of ohh...The board didn't do this...Oooh the board should have done this! and let's address the elephant in the room. Everything else is a sideshow. > > > Ali Hussein > Digital Transformation > > Tel: +254 713 601113 > Twitter: @AliHKassim > Skype: abu-jomo > LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim > > > > Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with. > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 11:31 AM Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: > In message <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C at delong.com >, > Owen DeLong > wrote: > > >> That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen. > > > >Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by > >Respondent to Petitioner. > > > >I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it. > > Well, no offense Owen, but I also have in my posession a document that > definitively proves that you are Satan. I would like to share that > with everyone, but my lawyer won't let me. Until he does however > I think that everyone should just take it on faith, because I'm > always right and I never lie. > :-) > > > Regards, > rfg > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Tue Jul 27 10:50:54 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 03:50:54 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <39436.1627383054@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Ali Hussein wrote: >I have been following this saga for a few days now and I can't help but >wonder (And this is aside from discussing the case of Cloud Innovation and >AfriNIC) I want to address the process of Mauritian law. > >How does a court in Mauritius freeze the bank accounts of another company >through ex parte proceedings? That is rather a serious mystery to me too. I guess that the court was worried... as some courts might reasonably worry in the case of some defendants... that *if* the defendant company was given some pre-notice of the impending freeze of its bank accounts, then the organization might try to evade the effects of such a freeze by quickly withdrawing all of its funds and placing those funds somewhere else. According to the following page which describes the typical procedures as they occur under the U.S. judicial system... https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/frozen-bank-accounts.html "Most creditors need to file a lawsuit and get a judgment against you before freezing your bank account. If the creditor wins the suit, the court issues a money judgment to the creditor. This money judgment serves as proof of the amount owed and protects debtors from having money taken that they don't owe. Once a creditor has the judgment against you, if you haven't taken steps to pay the judgment or agreed to a payment schedule for satisfying the debt, the judgment creditor can request that the court issue an order that directs the bank to freeze your account." I believe that the procedures are the same in most civilized countries, i.e. a party must *first* win a case and only *then* they may arrange to have the other party's bank accounts frozen or seized. I do not want to pre-judge the situation based on limited information, but offhand, and based on what few facts we have, it would seem to be reasonable to speculate that Mauritian law is different from U.S. law (and the law in many other jurisdictions) in that Mauritian law apparently does not actually require a party to win damages in court before a bank account of an opposing party may be frozen. (Whatever different rule the Mauritians are using with respect to asset freezes, it must surely be an absolute delight for any and all Mauritian plaintiffs!) Whether that is the best way to run a national legal system or not is, I suppose, in the eye of the beholder. All I can say for sure is that at this moment I am really quite glad that I personally do not own any bank accounts in Mauritius. >How else do you interpreter this? A court >giving an unprecedented ex parte ruling against an African Organization in >favor of a Hongkong-based organization who we are all clear is a purveyor >of African IP Addresses to organizations outside of Africa as its core >business model. I am sorry to have to correct you sir, but I believe that there is at least one serious inaccuracy in your comment above. To the best of my knowledge, Cloud Innovation, Ltd. is *not* "Hong Kong based" in the sense that its home jurisdiction... the jurisdiction in which it is actually incorporated... is, I believe, the Seychelles Islands, not Hong Kong. A Hong Kong based legal entity would never have qualified to become a member of AFRINIC. As far as I know, AFRINIC memberships have only been granted to legal entities that are actually "domiciled" within the AFRINIC geographical region. (Hong Kong is quite clearly outside of that region, while the Seychelles Islands are most definitely within the region.) It appears that at one point in time, Cloud Innovation, Ltd. may also have existed as a Mauritian legal entity, however the Mauritian legal entity with that name appears to have been wound up some time ago, which is probably just as well since, as I understand it, "international companies" may be formed in Mauritius, even if they have only very limited physical presence there (and pay minimal or no taxes there) however the downside is that such "international" Mauritian companies are not allowed, under law, to actually conduct business with -actual- Mauritian resident companies, for example, AFRINIC. Thus, an "offshore" company called "Cloud Innovation, Ltd." and incorporated in the Seychelles Islands is rather vastly superior to an offshore company called Cloud Innovation, Ltd." and incorporated in Mauritius, at least if the company wishes/wished to transact business with some actual Mauritian-resident company such as AFRINIC. https://opencorporates.com/companies/mu/C115736 >Let's put aside all this hullabaloo of ohh...The board didn't do >this...Oooh the board should have done this! and let's address the elephant >in the room. Everything else is a sideshow. The freezing of the bank accounts is most certainly a truly startling development and one that would most certainly NOT have happened in the United States, or, I expect, in most other civilized countries, at least not prior to a full trial on the merits and the actual conclusion of the over-arching legal case. I have previously mentioned other reasons that I and others might have for harboring displeasure with respect to the Mauritian legal system. There is no need for me to repeat those now, and in fact I have been cautioned against doing so again out of concern that either I or some AFRRINIC staff members might, as a result, be convicted of the heinous offense of "disrespecting the court" and that we might thus find ourselves dragged away in chains to what is no doubt some special Mauritian dark and dank dungeon specially reserved for offenders of such a unique caliber. Regards, rfg From alanlevin at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 11:23:12 2021 From: alanlevin at gmail.com (Alan Levin) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 13:23:12 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C@delong.com> <38677.1627374556@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: Hi, On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 11:48 AM Ali Hussein wrote: > If the former is true then maybe it's time to address the issue of the > domicility of Afrinic. Maybe Mauritius is too hostile for a > Pan-African-based organization. > Thanks Ali, yes agreed. I do believe that I have mentioned previously that when we initially founded AfriNIC, the experience with actually setting up in Mauritius, was NOT what we expected. It was "too late" to change that so we decided to carry on. I do believe that we're going to need to reassess not only the domicile, but the entire AfriNIC 1.0 business entity. hth Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 11:45:35 2021 From: ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com (Anthony Ubah) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 07:45:35 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <852257D7-1C77-48A8-B573-DBBD79EAE6B0@gmail.com> References: <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> <852257D7-1C77-48A8-B573-DBBD79EAE6B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Didin't comms at afrinic.net already close this thread? Here's another bait email trolling the community. *Best Regards,* *Anthony* On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 5:45 AM Lili Au wrote: > A funny discussion. Anyway, I saw many LOA that is CI authorise LARUS ( a > Hong Kong company too) then LARUS authorise to their clients. Leo is > correct. > > ? > > > Frank Habicht ?2021?7?27? 15:32??? > > > > ?Hi, > > > > did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect > > our customers in Africa" ? > > > > Did CI? > > > > Thanks, > > Frank > > > > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing > > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity. > > > >> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: > >> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please consider > >> the amount of space > >> held by: > >> > >> Non-LIRs (end users): > >> Hewlett Packard > >> Apple Computer > >> > >> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not: > >> Amateur Radio (AMPR) > >> > >> LIRs: > >> XFINITY/Comcast > >> Verizon > >> Akamai > >> XO Communications > >> Amazon > >> Microsoft > >> Google > >> etc. > >> > >> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the > >> above organizations. > >> > >> Owen > >> > >> > >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Ronald > >>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a > >>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block > >>> allocated. This is not in 199x year. > >>> > >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette > >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> In message > >>> CALm9Cbn%2BR9oen9%2B9YBjfbK5gGTcmEmZ1yhxgDfw04OTC3MxeZg at mail.gmail.com>> > >>> Meriem Dayday >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>>> This is a direct violation of the CoC. > >>> > >>> No, actually, it isn't. > >>> > >>> The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use > of > >>> it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is > >>> effectively > >>> public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any > >>> number of > >>> public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net , > etc.) > >>> > >>> If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it > an > >>> affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the > >>> telescope and then just describe what they saw? And if so, then > what > >>> is next? Book burning? > >>> > >>>> Disclosing such information and data without the company's > >>> consent is a > >>>> clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the > >>>> concerned person. > >>> > >>> OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different > >>> obvious > >>> logical problems. > >>> > >>> First, the Internet is *not* a private network. Fact's about what > >>> various > >>> companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to > learn, > >>> without needing the consent of the companies inolved. That is the > >>> nature > >>> of the Internet. If you want to run your own closed private > intranet, > >>> then go head. Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last > >>> detail of your corporate operations utterly secret. But the > >>> minute any > >>> company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it > >>> *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange > >>> for being > >>> a part of, and a participant on this great communications > >>> experiment we > >>> call the Internet. > >>> > >>> I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud > >>> Innovation. > >>> And yet even well before today I already determined for myself > >>> that well > >>> more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered > IPv4 > >>> address space was being deployed to other continents. This is not > >>> a state > >>> secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100% > >>> public > >>> sources. Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same > >>> information. > >>> > >>> Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its > >>> assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific > >>> RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate > question, > >>> and one which I myself do not have an answer to. In any case, the > >>> courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. > >>> But the > >>> mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its AFRINIC-assigned > >>> resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the > >>> available > >>> public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets. Any attempt to > portray > >>> them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship. > >>> > >>> The second logical problem with the statement above is contained > >>> in the > >>> part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal > >>> consequences > >>> on the concerned person." > >>> > >>> Exactly so! If the guy who posted the material you are reacting > >>> to was > >>> willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE OF > the > >>> possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for > defamation, > >>> then why are YOU worried about it? Why should AFRINIC be worried > >>> about > >>> it? Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation > lawsuit > >>> is only a problem for the guy who posted the (allegedly) defamatory > >>> text, and he obviiously was willing to take the risk in order to > >>> express > >>> his opinion, SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? > >>> > >>> Here again, shouting down in the original poster in this manner > >>> appears > >>> to me to be just another a heavy-handed attempt at pointless > >>> censorship. > >>> > >>> I hope that we here can all have open and frank discusions of all > >>> of the > >>> issues now of concern to AFRINIC without these kinds of attempts to > >>> muzzle dissenting viewpoints based on perfectly silly arguments. > >>> > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> rfg > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Community-Discuss mailing list > >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Community-Discuss mailing list > >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Community-Discuss mailing list > >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Community-Discuss mailing list > > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 11:50:12 2021 From: ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com (Anthony Ubah) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 07:50:12 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C@delong.com> <38677.1627374556@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: Hi Ali, Apt. I quite agree with your view on Mauritius legal system. *Best Regards,* *Anthony* On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 5:50 AM Ali Hussein wrote: > I have been following this saga for a few days now and I can't help but > wonder (And this is aside from discussing the case of Cloud Innovation and > AfriNIC) I want to address the process of Mauritian law. > > How does a court in Mauritius freeze the bank accounts of another company > through ex parte proceedings? For those who might not understand what I > mean - *ex parte is **done with respect to or in the interests of one > side only or of an interested outside party. *This is a basic tenet in > law. Was Afrinic given an opportunity to defend itself before these orders > to freeze its accounts were given? Or were summons given and Afrinic > ignored them? > > If the former is true then maybe it's time to address the issue of the > domicility of Afrinic. Maybe Mauritius is too hostile for a > Pan-African-based organization. How else do you interpreter this? A court > giving an unprecedented ex parte ruling against an African Organization in > favor of a Hongkong-based organization who we are all clear is a purveyor > of African IP Addresses to organizations outside of Africa as its core > business model. > > Let's put aside all this hullabaloo of ohh...The board didn't do > this...Oooh the board should have done this! and let's address the elephant > in the room. Everything else is a sideshow. > > > *Ali Hussein* > > Digital Transformation > > > Tel: +254 713 601113 > > Twitter: @AliHKassim > > Skype: abu-jomo > > LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim > > > > > > Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely > mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the > organizations that I work with. > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 11:31 AM Ronald F. Guilmette < > rfg at tristatelogic.com> wrote: > >> In message <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C at delong.com>, >> Owen DeLong wrote: >> >> >> That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen. >> > >> >Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by >> >Respondent to Petitioner. >> > >> >I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it. >> >> Well, no offense Owen, but I also have in my posession a document that >> definitively proves that you are Satan. I would like to share that >> with everyone, but my lawyer won't let me. Until he does however >> I think that everyone should just take it on faith, because I'm >> always right and I never lie. >> :-) >> >> >> Regards, >> rfg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Tue Jul 27 11:59:14 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 14:59:14 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> <852257D7-1C77-48A8-B573-DBBD79EAE6B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 14:51 Anthony Ubah, wrote: > Didin't comms at afrinic.net already close this thread? > > Here's another bait email trolling the community. > Let Lili Au speak. What are you afraid of? Comms dont have the authority to close any thread. They only cautioned on violation of CoC. Noah > > *Best Regards,* > > *Anthony* > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 5:45 AM Lili Au wrote: > >> A funny discussion. Anyway, I saw many LOA that is CI authorise LARUS ( a >> Hong Kong company too) then LARUS authorise to their clients. Leo is >> correct. >> >> ? >> >> > Frank Habicht ?2021?7?27? 15:32??? >> > >> > ?Hi, >> > >> > did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect >> > our customers in Africa" ? >> > >> > Did CI? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Frank >> > >> > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing >> > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity. >> > >> >> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: >> >> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please >> consider >> >> the amount of space >> >> held by: >> >> >> >> Non-LIRs (end users): >> >> Hewlett Packard >> >> Apple Computer >> >> >> >> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not: >> >> Amateur Radio (AMPR) >> >> >> >> LIRs: >> >> XFINITY/Comcast >> >> Verizon >> >> Akamai >> >> XO Communications >> >> Amazon >> >> Microsoft >> >> Google >> >> etc. >> >> >> >> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the >> >> above organizations. >> >> >> >> Owen >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S > >>> > wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hi Ronald >> >>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a >> >>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block >> >>> allocated. This is not in 199x year. >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette >> >>> > wrote: >> >>> >> >>> In message >> >>> < >> CALm9Cbn+R9oen9+9YBjfbK5gGTcmEmZ1yhxgDfw04OTC3MxeZg at mail.gmail.com >> > CALm9Cbn%2BR9oen9%2B9YBjfbK5gGTcmEmZ1yhxgDfw04OTC3MxeZg at mail.gmail.com>> >> >>> Meriem Dayday > >>> > wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> This is a direct violation of the CoC. >> >>> >> >>> No, actually, it isn't. >> >>> >> >>> The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use >> of >> >>> it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is >> >>> effectively >> >>> public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any >> >>> number of >> >>> public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net , >> etc.) >> >>> >> >>> If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it >> an >> >>> affront to public decency if some people elected to look through >> the >> >>> telescope and then just describe what they saw? And if so, then >> what >> >>> is next? Book burning? >> >>> >> >>>> Disclosing such information and data without the company's >> >>> consent is a >> >>>> clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the >> >>>> concerned person. >> >>> >> >>> OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different >> >>> obvious >> >>> logical problems. >> >>> >> >>> First, the Internet is *not* a private network. Fact's about what >> >>> various >> >>> companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to >> learn, >> >>> without needing the consent of the companies inolved. That is the >> >>> nature >> >>> of the Internet. If you want to run your own closed private >> intranet, >> >>> then go head. Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every >> last >> >>> detail of your corporate operations utterly secret. But the >> >>> minute any >> >>> company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, >> it >> >>> *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange >> >>> for being >> >>> a part of, and a participant on this great communications >> >>> experiment we >> >>> call the Internet. >> >>> >> >>> I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud >> >>> Innovation. >> >>> And yet even well before today I already determined for myself >> >>> that well >> >>> more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered >> IPv4 >> >>> address space was being deployed to other continents. This is not >> >>> a state >> >>> secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100% >> >>> public >> >>> sources. Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same >> >>> information. >> >>> >> >>> Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its >> >>> assigned number resources does or does not comport with its >> specific >> >>> RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate >> question, >> >>> and one which I myself do not have an answer to. In any case, the >> >>> courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. >> >>> But the >> >>> mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its >> AFRINIC-assigned >> >>> resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the >> >>> available >> >>> public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets. Any attempt to >> portray >> >>> them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship. >> >>> >> >>> The second logical problem with the statement above is contained >> >>> in the >> >>> part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal >> >>> consequences >> >>> on the concerned person." >> >>> >> >>> Exactly so! If the guy who posted the material you are reacting >> >>> to was >> >>> willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE OF >> the >> >>> possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for >> defamation, >> >>> then why are YOU worried about it? Why should AFRINIC be worried >> >>> about >> >>> it? Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation >> lawsuit >> >>> is only a problem for the guy who posted the (allegedly) defamatory >> >>> text, and he obviiously was willing to take the risk in order to >> >>> express >> >>> his opinion, SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? >> >>> >> >>> Here again, shouting down in the original poster in this manner >> >>> appears >> >>> to me to be just another a heavy-handed attempt at pointless >> >>> censorship. >> >>> >> >>> I hope that we here can all have open and frank discusions of all >> >>> of the >> >>> issues now of concern to AFRINIC without these kinds of attempts to >> >>> muzzle dissenting viewpoints based on perfectly silly arguments. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Regards, >> >>> rfg >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >> >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net> >> >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >> >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Community-Discuss mailing list >> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Tue Jul 27 12:00:12 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 15:00:12 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <852257D7-1C77-48A8-B573-DBBD79EAE6B0@gmail.com> References: <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> <852257D7-1C77-48A8-B573-DBBD79EAE6B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 12:48 Lili Au, wrote: > A funny discussion. Anyway, I saw many LOA that is CI authorise LARUS ( a > Hong Kong company too) then LARUS authorise to their clients. Leo is > correct. > Lili Au Please can you share some of those LoA from Cloud Innovation Ltd to Larus. We will appreciate it. Noah > ? > > > Frank Habicht ?2021?7?27? 15:32??? > > > > ?Hi, > > > > did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect > > our customers in Africa" ? > > > > Did CI? > > > > Thanks, > > Frank > > > > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing > > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity. > > > >> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: > >> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please consider > >> the amount of space > >> held by: > >> > >> Non-LIRs (end users): > >> Hewlett Packard > >> Apple Computer > >> > >> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not: > >> Amateur Radio (AMPR) > >> > >> LIRs: > >> XFINITY/Comcast > >> Verizon > >> Akamai > >> XO Communications > >> Amazon > >> Microsoft > >> Google > >> etc. > >> > >> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the > >> above organizations. > >> > >> Owen > >> > >> > >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Ronald > >>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a > >>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block > >>> allocated. This is not in 199x year. > >>> > >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette > >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> In message > >>> CALm9Cbn%2BR9oen9%2B9YBjfbK5gGTcmEmZ1yhxgDfw04OTC3MxeZg at mail.gmail.com>> > >>> Meriem Dayday >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>>> This is a direct violation of the CoC. > >>> > >>> No, actually, it isn't. > >>> > >>> The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use > of > >>> it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is > >>> effectively > >>> public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any > >>> number of > >>> public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net , > etc.) > >>> > >>> If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it > an > >>> affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the > >>> telescope and then just describe what they saw? And if so, then > what > >>> is next? Book burning? > >>> > >>>> Disclosing such information and data without the company's > >>> consent is a > >>>> clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the > >>>> concerned person. > >>> > >>> OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different > >>> obvious > >>> logical problems. > >>> > >>> First, the Internet is *not* a private network. Fact's about what > >>> various > >>> companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to > learn, > >>> without needing the consent of the companies inolved. That is the > >>> nature > >>> of the Internet. If you want to run your own closed private > intranet, > >>> then go head. Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last > >>> detail of your corporate operations utterly secret. But the > >>> minute any > >>> company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it > >>> *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange > >>> for being > >>> a part of, and a participant on this great communications > >>> experiment we > >>> call the Internet. > >>> > >>> I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud > >>> Innovation. > >>> And yet even well before today I already determined for myself > >>> that well > >>> more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered > IPv4 > >>> address space was being deployed to other continents. This is not > >>> a state > >>> secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100% > >>> public > >>> sources. Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same > >>> information. > >>> > >>> Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its > >>> assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific > >>> RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate > question, > >>> and one which I myself do not have an answer to. In any case, the > >>> courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. > >>> But the > >>> mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its AFRINIC-assigned > >>> resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the > >>> available > >>> public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets. Any attempt to > portray > >>> them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship. > >>> > >>> The second logical problem with the statement above is contained > >>> in the > >>> part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal > >>> consequences > >>> on the concerned person." > >>> > >>> Exactly so! If the guy who posted the material you are reacting > >>> to was > >>> willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE OF > the > >>> possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for > defamation, > >>> then why are YOU worried about it? Why should AFRINIC be worried > >>> about > >>> it? Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation > lawsuit > >>> is only a problem for the guy who posted the (allegedly) defamatory > >>> text, and he obviiously was willing to take the risk in order to > >>> express > >>> his opinion, SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? > >>> > >>> Here again, shouting down in the original poster in this manner > >>> appears > >>> to me to be just another a heavy-handed attempt at pointless > >>> censorship. > >>> > >>> I hope that we here can all have open and frank discusions of all > >>> of the > >>> issues now of concern to AFRINIC without these kinds of attempts to > >>> muzzle dissenting viewpoints based on perfectly silly arguments. > >>> > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> rfg > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Community-Discuss mailing list > >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Community-Discuss mailing list > >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Community-Discuss mailing list > >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Community-Discuss mailing list > > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blackboythinking at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 12:20:39 2021 From: blackboythinking at gmail.com (Antone Ubah) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 08:20:39 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> <852257D7-1C77-48A8-B573-DBBD79EAE6B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Oh Noah, 'Afraid' you say? Of what? Of whom? What are my stakes? What are your stakes? There is an ongoing legal process between parties involved, am I wrong? If anyone or group has input to that, is it not right to funnel such down the appropriate channels? Or are you the arm behind the puppets? The grand puppeteer popping up characters to incite friction.? Then again, what are your stakes? Lili is free to air his/her/their views, however it makes sense to do it right, not for commotion sake. Regards, Anthony On Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 8:00 AM Noah wrote: > > > On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 14:51 Anthony Ubah, wrote: > >> Didin't comms at afrinic.net already close this thread? >> >> Here's another bait email trolling the community. >> > > Let Lili Au speak. What are you afraid of? > > Comms dont have the authority to close any thread. > > They only cautioned on violation of CoC. > > Noah > >> >> *Best Regards,* >> >> *Anthony* >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 5:45 AM Lili Au wrote: >> >>> A funny discussion. Anyway, I saw many LOA that is CI authorise LARUS ( >>> a Hong Kong company too) then LARUS authorise to their clients. Leo is >>> correct. >>> >>> ? >>> >>> > Frank Habicht ?2021?7?27? 15:32??? >>> > >>> > ?Hi, >>> > >>> > did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to >>> connect >>> > our customers in Africa" ? >>> > >>> > Did CI? >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > Frank >>> > >>> > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing >>> > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity. >>> > >>> >> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: >>> >> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please >>> consider >>> >> the amount of space >>> >> held by: >>> >> >>> >> Non-LIRs (end users): >>> >> Hewlett Packard >>> >> Apple Computer >>> >> >>> >> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not: >>> >> Amateur Radio (AMPR) >>> >> >>> >> LIRs: >>> >> XFINITY/Comcast >>> >> Verizon >>> >> Akamai >>> >> XO Communications >>> >> Amazon >>> >> Microsoft >>> >> Google >>> >> etc. >>> >> >>> >> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the >>> >> above organizations. >>> >> >>> >> Owen >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S >> >>> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Ronald >>> >>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a >>> >>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block >>> >>> allocated. This is not in 199x year. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette >>> >>> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> In message >>> >>> < >>> CALm9Cbn+R9oen9+9YBjfbK5gGTcmEmZ1yhxgDfw04OTC3MxeZg at mail.gmail.com >>> >> CALm9Cbn%2BR9oen9%2B9YBjfbK5gGTcmEmZ1yhxgDfw04OTC3MxeZg at mail.gmail.com>> >>> >>> Meriem Dayday >> >>> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> This is a direct violation of the CoC. >>> >>> >>> >>> No, actually, it isn't. >>> >>> >>> >>> The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making >>> use of >>> >>> it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is >>> >>> effectively >>> >>> public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any >>> >>> number of >>> >>> public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net , >>> etc.) >>> >>> >>> >>> If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider >>> it an >>> >>> affront to public decency if some people elected to look through >>> the >>> >>> telescope and then just describe what they saw? And if so, then >>> what >>> >>> is next? Book burning? >>> >>> >>> >>>> Disclosing such information and data without the company's >>> >>> consent is a >>> >>>> clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the >>> >>>> concerned person. >>> >>> >>> >>> OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different >>> >>> obvious >>> >>> logical problems. >>> >>> >>> >>> First, the Internet is *not* a private network. Fact's about what >>> >>> various >>> >>> companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to >>> learn, >>> >>> without needing the consent of the companies inolved. That is the >>> >>> nature >>> >>> of the Internet. If you want to run your own closed private >>> intranet, >>> >>> then go head. Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every >>> last >>> >>> detail of your corporate operations utterly secret. But the >>> >>> minute any >>> >>> company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, >>> it >>> >>> *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange >>> >>> for being >>> >>> a part of, and a participant on this great communications >>> >>> experiment we >>> >>> call the Internet. >>> >>> >>> >>> I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud >>> >>> Innovation. >>> >>> And yet even well before today I already determined for myself >>> >>> that well >>> >>> more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered >>> IPv4 >>> >>> address space was being deployed to other continents. This is not >>> >>> a state >>> >>> secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100% >>> >>> public >>> >>> sources. Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same >>> >>> information. >>> >>> >>> >>> Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying >>> its >>> >>> assigned number resources does or does not comport with its >>> specific >>> >>> RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate >>> question, >>> >>> and one which I myself do not have an answer to. In any case, the >>> >>> courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. >>> >>> But the >>> >>> mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its >>> AFRINIC-assigned >>> >>> resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the >>> >>> available >>> >>> public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets. Any attempt to >>> portray >>> >>> them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship. >>> >>> >>> >>> The second logical problem with the statement above is contained >>> >>> in the >>> >>> part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal >>> >>> consequences >>> >>> on the concerned person." >>> >>> >>> >>> Exactly so! If the guy who posted the material you are reacting >>> >>> to was >>> >>> willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE OF >>> the >>> >>> possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for >>> defamation, >>> >>> then why are YOU worried about it? Why should AFRINIC be worried >>> >>> about >>> >>> it? Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation >>> lawsuit >>> >>> is only a problem for the guy who posted the (allegedly) >>> defamatory >>> >>> text, and he obviiously was willing to take the risk in order to >>> >>> express >>> >>> his opinion, SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? >>> >>> >>> >>> Here again, shouting down in the original poster in this manner >>> >>> appears >>> >>> to me to be just another a heavy-handed attempt at pointless >>> >>> censorship. >>> >>> >>> >>> I hope that we here can all have open and frank discusions of all >>> >>> of the >>> >>> issues now of concern to AFRINIC without these kinds of attempts >>> to >>> >>> muzzle dissenting viewpoints based on perfectly silly arguments. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> rfg >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net> >>> >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Community-Discuss mailing list >>> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From comms at afrinic.net Tue Jul 27 12:31:09 2021 From: comms at afrinic.net (AFRINIC Communication) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 16:31:09 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C@delong.com> <38677.1627374556@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <5755669E-B1AF-43F1-AD6F-1D4F13C59E26@afrinic.net> Dear colleagues, AFRINIC will be shedding some light on the developments in the legal case and the freezing of AFRINIC Financial Accounts soon. We appreciate your patience. Regards, AFRINIC Communications > On 27 Jul 2021, at 15:50, Anthony Ubah wrote: > > Hi Ali, > > Apt. I quite agree with your view on Mauritius legal system. > > Best Regards, > > Anthony > > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 5:50 AM Ali Hussein > wrote: > I have been following this saga for a few days now and I can't help but wonder (And this is aside from discussing the case of Cloud Innovation and AfriNIC) I want to address the process of Mauritian law. > > How does a court in Mauritius freeze the bank accounts of another company through ex parte proceedings? For those who might not understand what I mean - ex parte is done with respect to or in the interests of one side only or of an interested outside party. This is a basic tenet in law. Was Afrinic given an opportunity to defend itself before these orders to freeze its accounts were given? Or were summons given and Afrinic ignored them? > > If the former is true then maybe it's time to address the issue of the domicility of Afrinic. Maybe Mauritius is too hostile for a Pan-African-based organization. How else do you interpreter this? A court giving an unprecedented ex parte ruling against an African Organization in favor of a Hongkong-based organization who we are all clear is a purveyor of African IP Addresses to organizations outside of Africa as its core business model. > > Let's put aside all this hullabaloo of ohh...The board didn't do this...Oooh the board should have done this! and let's address the elephant in the room. Everything else is a sideshow. > > > Ali Hussein > Digital Transformation > > Tel: +254 713 601113 > Twitter: @AliHKassim > Skype: abu-jomo > LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim > > > > Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with. > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 11:31 AM Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: > In message <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C at delong.com >, > Owen DeLong > wrote: > > >> That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen. > > > >Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by > >Respondent to Petitioner. > > > >I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it. > > Well, no offense Owen, but I also have in my posession a document that > definitively proves that you are Satan. I would like to share that > with everyone, but my lawyer won't let me. Until he does however > I think that everyone should just take it on faith, because I'm > always right and I never lie. > :-) > > > Regards, > rfg > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmurungi at wia.co.tz Tue Jul 27 12:35:13 2021 From: dmurungi at wia.co.tz (Murungi Daniel) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 15:35:13 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> <852257D7-1C77-48A8-B573-DBBD79EAE6B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Ubah, I see you are at it again with gas lighting and insinuations. The thread is still open and clearly community members still have input. @Lili Au, please do not get intimidated by bogus open ended questions. Kindly share with the community whatever information you feel is pertinent to the discussion at hand. Regards, Murungi Daniel > On Jul 27, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Antone Ubah wrote: > > Oh Noah, > > 'Afraid' you say? Of what? Of whom? What are my stakes? What are your stakes? > There is an ongoing legal process between parties involved, am I wrong? If anyone or group has input to that, is it not right to funnel such down the appropriate channels? > > > Or are you the arm behind the puppets? The grand puppeteer popping up characters to incite friction.? > > Then again, what are your stakes? > > > Lili is free to air his/her/their views, however it makes sense to do it right, not for commotion sake. > > > Regards, > > Anthony > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 8:00 AM Noah > wrote: > > > On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 14:51 Anthony Ubah, > wrote: > Didin't comms at afrinic.net already close this thread? > > Here's another bait email trolling the community. > > Let Lili Au speak. What are you afraid of? > > Comms dont have the authority to close any thread. > > They only cautioned on violation of CoC. > > Noah > > Best Regards, > > Anthony > > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 5:45 AM Lili Au > wrote: > A funny discussion. Anyway, I saw many LOA that is CI authorise LARUS ( a Hong Kong company too) then LARUS authorise to their clients. Leo is correct. > > ? > > > Frank Habicht >?2021?7?27? 15:32??? > > > > ?Hi, > > > > did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect > > our customers in Africa" ? > > > > Did CI? > > > > Thanks, > > Frank > > > > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing > > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity. > > > >> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: > >> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please consider > >> the amount of space > >> held by: > >> > >> Non-LIRs (end users): > >> Hewlett Packard > >> Apple Computer > >> > >> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not: > >> Amateur Radio (AMPR) > >> > >> LIRs: > >> XFINITY/Comcast > >> Verizon > >> Akamai > >> XO Communications > >> Amazon > >> Microsoft > >> Google > >> etc. > >> > >> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the > >> above organizations. > >> > >> Owen > >> > >> > >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S > >>> >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Ronald > >>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a > >>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block > >>> allocated. This is not in 199x year. > >>> > >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette > >>> >> wrote: > >>> > >>> In message > >>> >> > >>> Meriem Dayday > >>> >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> This is a direct violation of the CoC. > >>> > >>> No, actually, it isn't. > >>> > >>> The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use of > >>> it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is > >>> effectively > >>> public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any > >>> number of > >>> public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net >, etc.) > >>> > >>> If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it an > >>> affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the > >>> telescope and then just describe what they saw? And if so, then what > >>> is next? Book burning? > >>> > >>>> Disclosing such information and data without the company's > >>> consent is a > >>>> clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the > >>>> concerned person. > >>> > >>> OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different > >>> obvious > >>> logical problems. > >>> > >>> First, the Internet is *not* a private network. Fact's about what > >>> various > >>> companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to learn, > >>> without needing the consent of the companies inolved. That is the > >>> nature > >>> of the Internet. If you want to run your own closed private intranet, > >>> then go head. Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last > >>> detail of your corporate operations utterly secret. But the > >>> minute any > >>> company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it > >>> *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange > >>> for being > >>> a part of, and a participant on this great communications > >>> experiment we > >>> call the Internet. > >>> > >>> I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud > >>> Innovation. > >>> And yet even well before today I already determined for myself > >>> that well > >>> more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered IPv4 > >>> address space was being deployed to other continents. This is not > >>> a state > >>> secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100% > >>> public > >>> sources. Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same > >>> information. > >>> > >>> Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its > >>> assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific > >>> RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate question, > >>> and one which I myself do not have an answer to. In any case, the > >>> courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. > >>> But the > >>> mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its AFRINIC-assigned > >>> resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the > >>> available > >>> public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets. Any attempt to portray > >>> them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship. > >>> > >>> The second logical problem with the statement above is contained > >>> in the > >>> part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal > >>> consequences > >>> on the concerned person." > >>> > >>> Exactly so! If the guy who posted the material you are reacting > >>> to was > >>> willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE OF the > >>> possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for defamation, > >>> then why are YOU worried about it? Why should AFRINIC be worried > >>> about > >>> it? Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation lawsuit > >>> is only a problem for the guy who posted the (allegedly) defamatory > >>> text, and he obviiously was willing to take the risk in order to > >>> express > >>> his opinion, SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? > >>> > >>> Here again, shouting down in the original poster in this manner > >>> appears > >>> to me to be just another a heavy-handed attempt at pointless > >>> censorship. > >>> > >>> I hope that we here can all have open and frank discusions of all > >>> of the > >>> issues now of concern to AFRINIC without these kinds of attempts to > >>> muzzle dissenting viewpoints based on perfectly silly arguments. > >>> > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> rfg > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Community-Discuss mailing list > >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > >>> > > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Community-Discuss mailing list > >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Community-Discuss mailing list > >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Community-Discuss mailing list > > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pascosoft at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 13:18:07 2021 From: pascosoft at gmail.com (Paschal Ochang) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 14:18:07 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <5CE093C6-FB95-4E27-8D34-A3488D8C990F@afrinic.net> References: <32377.1627265051@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <65EA2D35-E7DB-4BAE-A37D-B72256205416@gmail.com> <5CE093C6-FB95-4E27-8D34-A3488D8C990F@afrinic.net> Message-ID: This thread is not open according to the mail below. Unless as usual you want the whole community to ignore calls for regard of authority and go down the lane of non moderation of discussions. On Monday, July 26, 2021, AFRINIC Communication wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > We kindly ask you all to refrain from continuing with this thread as it > seems to be mostly geared towards personal attacks. > > Regardless of the motive, AFRINIC may be forced to issue warnings to those > who do not comply and choose to ignore this message. > > Also please refer to the email sent this morning on the AFRINIC Code of > Conduct: > https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/ > 2021-July/004278.html > > Regards > AFRINIC Communications > > ?????????????????????? > > > Chers coll?gues, > > Nous vous invitons ? vous abstenir de poursuivre ce fil de discussion, car > il semble ?tre principalement orient? vers des attaques personnelles. > > Quel qu'en soit le motif, l'AFRINIC pourrait ?tre contrainte d'?mettre des > avertissements ? ceux qui ne se conforment pas et choisissent d'ignorer ce > message. > > Veuillez ?galement vous r?f?rer ? l'email que nous avons envoy? ce matin > sur le code de conduite de l'AFRINIC : https://lists.afrinic.net/ > pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004278.html > > Cordialement, > AFRINIC Communications > > > On 26 Jul 2021, at 15:39, Anthony Ubah wrote: > > Dear Leo S, > > You are churning out awesome figures here, unarguably so. However, I wish > you can spare some time to responded to my question on motive. > While this is all now glaring, it is important to know if you are here > shedding light, providing heat, or fanning smokes into our eyes? > You seem to be baiting the community with your posts. *"This is good news > for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the IP address for the > end user."* > > > *Regards,* > > *Anthony* > > > > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:01 AM Leo S wrote: > >> These addresses are worth more than 100 million US dollars. If the >> address is revoked. For them, they will face a loss of 90% of their income >> Forced to close business. They will go all out, For Cloud Innovation Ltd, >> this is more than 100 million US dollars in cash. For AFRINIC it's a mere >> $10,000 USD. Actions that can be taken in the face of such a large amount >> of money so I think AFRINIC may fail finally or compromise. >> >> This is good news for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the >> IP address for the end user. >> >> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 11:30 AM Ibeanusi Elvis >> wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> This is information of whatever anyone might choose to call it from Leo, >>> shades no light to present discussion at hand. >>> To me, this is a clear defamation and personal attack to this "Lu Heng? >>> guy. >>> This is a clear violation of the Code of Conduct and there should be no >>> question whether this is a personal attack or not. >>> >>> Best, >>> Elvis. >>> >>> > On Jul 26, 2021, at 11:04, Ronald F. Guilmette >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > In message >> bbiKSCx5wocguYg at mail.gmail.com> >>> > Wijdane Goubi wrote: >>> > >>> >> *He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A >>> few >>> >> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is >>> smart >>> >> and knows who should pay the money to. >>> >> >>> >>> Leo's statement here hints that this guy called Lu Heng has engaged >>> in >>> >> some sort of bribing. How is this not personal attack defamation? >>> > >>> > I am forced to agree that Leo's second sentence, as quoted above, >>> contitutes >>> > "casting aspersions" and in the absence of hard supporting evidence it >>> was >>> > inappropriate, uncalled for, and contributed only heat and no light to >>> > the present discussion. >>> > >>> > I made the exact same sort of mistake myself, right here on this >>> mailing >>> > list, back in 2016, and later publicly apologized for that. Perhaps >>> that >>> > explains why I am less inclined that others to make a huge issue out of >>> > such utterances when they are made in the heat of the moment and >>> without >>> > adequate thought. >>> > >>> > I think that it should be sufficient to politely ask Leo to retract >>> that >>> > one sentence, to apologize, and then let it go at that. We already >>> have >>> > more than enough wars to fight, tribal and otherwise, and we shouldn't >>> be >>> > looking for reasons to start up new ones just based on this or that >>> > ill-considered statement that may be made by any of us during those >>> times >>> > when our passions override our reason. >>> > >>> > >>> > Regards, >>> > rfg >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Community-Discuss mailing list >>> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > -- Kind regards, Paschal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Tue Jul 27 13:19:24 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 16:19:24 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> <852257D7-1C77-48A8-B573-DBBD79EAE6B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 15:20 Antone Ubah, wrote: > Oh Noah, > > 'Afraid' you say? Of what? Of whom? What are my stakes? What are your > stakes? > There is an ongoing legal process between parties involved, am I wrong? If > anyone or group has input to that, is it not right to funnel such down the > appropriate channels? > > > Or are you the arm behind the puppets? The grand puppeteer popping up > characters to incite friction.? > As far as I know and for a fact, you Antony are a puppet associated with Heng Lu. I know this for a fact and enough data to prove it. Whoever Lili Au is, they have the right to speak and dont call them trolls. Noah > Then again, what are your stakes? > > > Lili is free to air his/her/their views, however it makes sense to do it > right, not for commotion sake. > > > Regards, > > Anthony > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 8:00 AM Noah wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 14:51 Anthony Ubah, wrote: >> >>> Didin't comms at afrinic.net already close this thread? >>> >>> Here's another bait email trolling the community. >>> >> >> Let Lili Au speak. What are you afraid of? >> >> Comms dont have the authority to close any thread. >> >> They only cautioned on violation of CoC. >> >> Noah >> >>> >>> *Best Regards,* >>> >>> *Anthony* >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 5:45 AM Lili Au wrote: >>> >>>> A funny discussion. Anyway, I saw many LOA that is CI authorise LARUS ( >>>> a Hong Kong company too) then LARUS authorise to their clients. Leo is >>>> correct. >>>> >>>> ? >>>> >>>> > Frank Habicht ?2021?7?27? 15:32??? >>>> > >>>> > ?Hi, >>>> > >>>> > did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to >>>> connect >>>> > our customers in Africa" ? >>>> > >>>> > Did CI? >>>> > >>>> > Thanks, >>>> > Frank >>>> > >>>> > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing >>>> > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity. >>>> > >>>> >> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: >>>> >> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please >>>> consider >>>> >> the amount of space >>>> >> held by: >>>> >> >>>> >> Non-LIRs (end users): >>>> >> Hewlett Packard >>>> >> Apple Computer >>>> >> >>>> >> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not: >>>> >> Amateur Radio (AMPR) >>>> >> >>>> >> LIRs: >>>> >> XFINITY/Comcast >>>> >> Verizon >>>> >> Akamai >>>> >> XO Communications >>>> >> Amazon >>>> >> Microsoft >>>> >> Google >>>> >> etc. >>>> >> >>>> >> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the >>>> >> above organizations. >>>> >> >>>> >> Owen >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S >>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Hi Ronald >>>> >>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a >>>> >>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block >>>> >>> allocated. This is not in 199x year. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> In message >>>> >>> < >>>> CALm9Cbn+R9oen9+9YBjfbK5gGTcmEmZ1yhxgDfw04OTC3MxeZg at mail.gmail.com >>>> >>> CALm9Cbn%2BR9oen9%2B9YBjfbK5gGTcmEmZ1yhxgDfw04OTC3MxeZg at mail.gmail.com >>>> >> >>>> >>> Meriem Dayday >>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> This is a direct violation of the CoC. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> No, actually, it isn't. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making >>>> use of >>>> >>> it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is >>>> >>> effectively >>>> >>> public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any >>>> >>> number of >>>> >>> public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net , >>>> etc.) >>>> >>> >>>> >>> If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider >>>> it an >>>> >>> affront to public decency if some people elected to look through >>>> the >>>> >>> telescope and then just describe what they saw? And if so, then >>>> what >>>> >>> is next? Book burning? >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> Disclosing such information and data without the company's >>>> >>> consent is a >>>> >>>> clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the >>>> >>>> concerned person. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different >>>> >>> obvious >>>> >>> logical problems. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> First, the Internet is *not* a private network. Fact's about >>>> what >>>> >>> various >>>> >>> companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to >>>> learn, >>>> >>> without needing the consent of the companies inolved. That is >>>> the >>>> >>> nature >>>> >>> of the Internet. If you want to run your own closed private >>>> intranet, >>>> >>> then go head. Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every >>>> last >>>> >>> detail of your corporate operations utterly secret. But the >>>> >>> minute any >>>> >>> company obtains Internet number resources and starts using >>>> those, it >>>> >>> *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange >>>> >>> for being >>>> >>> a part of, and a participant on this great communications >>>> >>> experiment we >>>> >>> call the Internet. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud >>>> >>> Innovation. >>>> >>> And yet even well before today I already determined for myself >>>> >>> that well >>>> >>> more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned >>>> AFRINIC-administered IPv4 >>>> >>> address space was being deployed to other continents. This is >>>> not >>>> >>> a state >>>> >>> secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100% >>>> >>> public >>>> >>> sources. Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same >>>> >>> information. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying >>>> its >>>> >>> assigned number resources does or does not comport with its >>>> specific >>>> >>> RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate >>>> question, >>>> >>> and one which I myself do not have an answer to. In any case, >>>> the >>>> >>> courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. >>>> >>> But the >>>> >>> mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its >>>> AFRINIC-assigned >>>> >>> resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the >>>> >>> available >>>> >>> public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets. Any attempt to >>>> portray >>>> >>> them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The second logical problem with the statement above is contained >>>> >>> in the >>>> >>> part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal >>>> >>> consequences >>>> >>> on the concerned person." >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Exactly so! If the guy who posted the material you are reacting >>>> >>> to was >>>> >>> willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE >>>> OF the >>>> >>> possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for >>>> defamation, >>>> >>> then why are YOU worried about it? Why should AFRINIC be worried >>>> >>> about >>>> >>> it? Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation >>>> lawsuit >>>> >>> is only a problem for the guy who posted the (allegedly) >>>> defamatory >>>> >>> text, and he obviiously was willing to take the risk in order to >>>> >>> express >>>> >>> his opinion, SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Here again, shouting down in the original poster in this manner >>>> >>> appears >>>> >>> to me to be just another a heavy-handed attempt at pointless >>>> >>> censorship. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I hope that we here can all have open and frank discusions of all >>>> >>> of the >>>> >>> issues now of concern to AFRINIC without these kinds of attempts >>>> to >>>> >>> muzzle dissenting viewpoints based on perfectly silly arguments. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Regards, >>>> >>> rfg >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net> >>>> >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> > >>>> >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmurungi at wia.co.tz Tue Jul 27 13:39:27 2021 From: dmurungi at wia.co.tz (Murungi Daniel) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 16:39:27 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <32377.1627265051@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <65EA2D35-E7DB-4BAE-A37D-B72256205416@gmail.com> <5CE093C6-FB95-4E27-8D34-A3488D8C990F@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Dear Paschal, As I have explicitly stated before, I do not agree with personal attacks against anyone with differing opinions. It is clear that there are still community members who have information pertinent to this thread that the community should know about (IMHO). Given what is at stake, and with all due respect to the AFRINIC COMMS team, If that earns me a slap on the wrist (not the face :) ), then so be it. Regards, Daniel > On Jul 27, 2021, at 4:18 PM, Paschal Ochang wrote: > > This thread is not open according to the mail below. Unless as usual you want the whole community to ignore calls for regard of authority and go down the lane of non moderation of discussions. > > On Monday, July 26, 2021, AFRINIC Communication > wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > We kindly ask you all to refrain from continuing with this thread as it seems to be mostly geared towards personal attacks. > > Regardless of the motive, AFRINIC may be forced to issue warnings to those who do not comply and choose to ignore this message. > > Also please refer to the email sent this morning on the AFRINIC Code of Conduct: > https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004278.html > > Regards > AFRINIC Communications > > ?????????????????????? > > > Chers coll?gues, > > Nous vous invitons ? vous abstenir de poursuivre ce fil de discussion, car il semble ?tre principalement orient? vers des attaques personnelles. > > Quel qu'en soit le motif, l'AFRINIC pourrait ?tre contrainte d'?mettre des avertissements ? ceux qui ne se conforment pas et choisissent d'ignorer ce message. > > Veuillez ?galement vous r?f?rer ? l'email que nous avons envoy? ce matin sur le code de conduite de l'AFRINIC : https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004278.html > > Cordialement, > AFRINIC Communications > > >> On 26 Jul 2021, at 15:39, Anthony Ubah > wrote: >> >> Dear Leo S, >> >> You are churning out awesome figures here, unarguably so. However, I wish you can spare some time to responded to my question on motive. >> While this is all now glaring, it is important to know if you are here shedding light, providing heat, or fanning smokes into our eyes? >> You seem to be baiting the community with your posts. "This is good news for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the IP address for the end user." >> >> >> Regards, >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:01 AM Leo S > wrote: >> These addresses are worth more than 100 million US dollars. If the address is revoked. For them, they will face a loss of 90% of their income Forced to close business. They will go all out, For Cloud Innovation Ltd, this is more than 100 million US dollars in cash. For AFRINIC it's a mere $10,000 USD. Actions that can be taken in the face of such a large amount of money so I think AFRINIC may fail finally or compromise. >> >> This is good news for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the IP address for the end user. >> >> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 11:30 AM Ibeanusi Elvis > wrote: >> Hello, >> >> This is information of whatever anyone might choose to call it from Leo, shades no light to present discussion at hand. >> To me, this is a clear defamation and personal attack to this "Lu Heng? guy. >> This is a clear violation of the Code of Conduct and there should be no question whether this is a personal attack or not. >> >> Best, >> Elvis. >> >> > On Jul 26, 2021, at 11:04, Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: >> > >> > In message > >> > Wijdane Goubi > wrote: >> > >> >> *He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few >> >> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart >> >> and knows who should pay the money to. >> >> >> >>> Leo's statement here hints that this guy called Lu Heng has engaged in >> >> some sort of bribing. How is this not personal attack defamation? >> > >> > I am forced to agree that Leo's second sentence, as quoted above, contitutes >> > "casting aspersions" and in the absence of hard supporting evidence it was >> > inappropriate, uncalled for, and contributed only heat and no light to >> > the present discussion. >> > >> > I made the exact same sort of mistake myself, right here on this mailing >> > list, back in 2016, and later publicly apologized for that. Perhaps that >> > explains why I am less inclined that others to make a huge issue out of >> > such utterances when they are made in the heat of the moment and without >> > adequate thought. >> > >> > I think that it should be sufficient to politely ask Leo to retract that >> > one sentence, to apologize, and then let it go at that. We already have >> > more than enough wars to fight, tribal and otherwise, and we shouldn't be >> > looking for reasons to start up new ones just based on this or that >> > ill-considered statement that may be made by any of us during those times >> > when our passions override our reason. >> > >> > >> > Regards, >> > rfg >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Community-Discuss mailing list >> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > -- > Kind regards, > Paschal. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From au8692936 at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 14:31:59 2021 From: au8692936 at gmail.com (Lili Au) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 22:31:59 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> <852257D7-1C77-48A8-B573-DBBD79EAE6B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you Noah, Hi everyone, I'm afraid that I can not share the LOA since it will give them some clues. But I can say -- - Leo is saying the truth. or even more revenue that CI earns from leasing service. I know their pricing, I know their business model. - As I said, CI will issue LOA to LARUS, and LARUS issue the LOA to their client, as you guys may know CI belongs to who, and - LARUS Limited (a company registered in Hong Kong) belongs to the guy who we know, for those interested, please check from ICRIS( https://www.icris.cr.gov.hk/csci/), which was created by the Hong Kong government - Company Registry. it's public record, you just need to pay 11HKD(1.41USD) to check:) - I don't know much about Africa on Cloud, but please check their ASN, it's interesting when you look at those ranges:) Oh, a few months ago I received a call before from LARUS about the election and they want me to vote for Mr. Paul Wallner, anyone else got this call too? - Some guys keep talking here is hired by CI or LARUS, apparently, - Anyone can lease IP address from LARUS: https://ipv4.larus.net/, you just need to fill in some information and pay. then you will get an LOA within few days, most of their blocks from CI, only around 1% from other companies(their management service) - LARUS keep leasing out CI's IP blocks, but for those idle blocks, CI will keep broadcast under some ASNs like AS328608 (South Africa), AS35916 (USA), or AS134548 (HK) At last, I got a question is When AFRINIC will open Inter-RIR transfer policy? I'm pretty sure that CI will transfer all the IP blocks to other RIR:) Best Noah ? 2021?7?27? ?? ??9:20??? > > > On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 15:20 Antone Ubah, > wrote: > >> Oh Noah, >> >> 'Afraid' you say? Of what? Of whom? What are my stakes? What are your >> stakes? >> There is an ongoing legal process between parties involved, am I wrong? >> If anyone or group has input to that, is it not right to funnel such down >> the appropriate channels? >> >> >> Or are you the arm behind the puppets? The grand puppeteer popping up >> characters to incite friction.? >> > > > As far as I know and for a fact, you Antony are a puppet associated with > Heng Lu. > > I know this for a fact and enough data to prove it. > > Whoever Lili Au is, they have the right to speak and dont call them trolls. > > Noah > > > >> Then again, what are your stakes? >> >> >> Lili is free to air his/her/their views, however it makes sense to do it >> right, not for commotion sake. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Anthony >> >> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 8:00 AM Noah wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 14:51 Anthony Ubah, >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Didin't comms at afrinic.net already close this thread? >>>> >>>> Here's another bait email trolling the community. >>>> >>> >>> Let Lili Au speak. What are you afraid of? >>> >>> Comms dont have the authority to close any thread. >>> >>> They only cautioned on violation of CoC. >>> >>> Noah >>> >>>> >>>> *Best Regards,* >>>> >>>> *Anthony* >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 5:45 AM Lili Au wrote: >>>> >>>>> A funny discussion. Anyway, I saw many LOA that is CI authorise LARUS >>>>> ( a Hong Kong company too) then LARUS authorise to their clients. Leo is >>>>> correct. >>>>> >>>>> ? >>>>> >>>>> > Frank Habicht ?2021?7?27? 15:32??? >>>>> > >>>>> > ?Hi, >>>>> > >>>>> > did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to >>>>> connect >>>>> > our customers in Africa" ? >>>>> > >>>>> > Did CI? >>>>> > >>>>> > Thanks, >>>>> > Frank >>>>> > >>>>> > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing >>>>> > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity. >>>>> > >>>>> >> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: >>>>> >> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please >>>>> consider >>>>> >> the amount of space >>>>> >> held by: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Non-LIRs (end users): >>>>> >> Hewlett Packard >>>>> >> Apple Computer >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not: >>>>> >> Amateur Radio (AMPR) >>>>> >> >>>>> >> LIRs: >>>>> >> XFINITY/Comcast >>>>> >> Verizon >>>>> >> Akamai >>>>> >> XO Communications >>>>> >> Amazon >>>>> >> Microsoft >>>>> >> Google >>>>> >> etc. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the >>>>> >> above organizations. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Owen >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Hi Ronald >>>>> >>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a >>>>> >>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block >>>>> >>> allocated. This is not in 199x year. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette >>>>> >>> > wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> In message >>>>> >>> < >>>>> CALm9Cbn+R9oen9+9YBjfbK5gGTcmEmZ1yhxgDfw04OTC3MxeZg at mail.gmail.com >>>>> >>>> CALm9Cbn%2BR9oen9%2B9YBjfbK5gGTcmEmZ1yhxgDfw04OTC3MxeZg at mail.gmail.com >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> Meriem Dayday >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>> This is a direct violation of the CoC. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> No, actually, it isn't. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making >>>>> use of >>>>> >>> it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is >>>>> >>> effectively >>>>> >>> public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any >>>>> >>> number of >>>>> >>> public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net , >>>>> etc.) >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider >>>>> it an >>>>> >>> affront to public decency if some people elected to look >>>>> through the >>>>> >>> telescope and then just describe what they saw? And if so, >>>>> then what >>>>> >>> is next? Book burning? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>> Disclosing such information and data without the company's >>>>> >>> consent is a >>>>> >>>> clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the >>>>> >>>> concerned person. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two >>>>> different >>>>> >>> obvious >>>>> >>> logical problems. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> First, the Internet is *not* a private network. Fact's about >>>>> what >>>>> >>> various >>>>> >>> companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to >>>>> learn, >>>>> >>> without needing the consent of the companies inolved. That is >>>>> the >>>>> >>> nature >>>>> >>> of the Internet. If you want to run your own closed private >>>>> intranet, >>>>> >>> then go head. Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every >>>>> last >>>>> >>> detail of your corporate operations utterly secret. But the >>>>> >>> minute any >>>>> >>> company obtains Internet number resources and starts using >>>>> those, it >>>>> >>> *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange >>>>> >>> for being >>>>> >>> a part of, and a participant on this great communications >>>>> >>> experiment we >>>>> >>> call the Internet. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud >>>>> >>> Innovation. >>>>> >>> And yet even well before today I already determined for myself >>>>> >>> that well >>>>> >>> more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned >>>>> AFRINIC-administered IPv4 >>>>> >>> address space was being deployed to other continents. This is >>>>> not >>>>> >>> a state >>>>> >>> secret by any means, and the information may be derived from >>>>> 100% >>>>> >>> public >>>>> >>> sources. Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same >>>>> >>> information. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying >>>>> its >>>>> >>> assigned number resources does or does not comport with its >>>>> specific >>>>> >>> RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate >>>>> question, >>>>> >>> and one which I myself do not have an answer to. In any case, >>>>> the >>>>> >>> courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. >>>>> >>> But the >>>>> >>> mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its >>>>> AFRINIC-assigned >>>>> >>> resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the >>>>> >>> available >>>>> >>> public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets. Any attempt to >>>>> portray >>>>> >>> them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> The second logical problem with the statement above is contained >>>>> >>> in the >>>>> >>> part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal >>>>> >>> consequences >>>>> >>> on the concerned person." >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Exactly so! If the guy who posted the material you are reacting >>>>> >>> to was >>>>> >>> willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE >>>>> OF the >>>>> >>> possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for >>>>> defamation, >>>>> >>> then why are YOU worried about it? Why should AFRINIC be >>>>> worried >>>>> >>> about >>>>> >>> it? Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation >>>>> lawsuit >>>>> >>> is only a problem for the guy who posted the (allegedly) >>>>> defamatory >>>>> >>> text, and he obviiously was willing to take the risk in order to >>>>> >>> express >>>>> >>> his opinion, SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Here again, shouting down in the original poster in this manner >>>>> >>> appears >>>>> >>> to me to be just another a heavy-handed attempt at pointless >>>>> >>> censorship. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I hope that we here can all have open and frank discusions of >>>>> all >>>>> >>> of the >>>>> >>> issues now of concern to AFRINIC without these kinds of >>>>> attempts to >>>>> >>> muzzle dissenting viewpoints based on perfectly silly arguments. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Regards, >>>>> >>> rfg >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>>> >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net> >>>>> >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>>> >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net> >>>>> >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>>> >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>>> >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>>> >> >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Community-Discuss mailing list >>>>> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>>> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eddy at afrinic.net Tue Jul 27 14:36:14 2021 From: eddy at afrinic.net (Eddy Kayihura) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:36:14 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update References: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Please take note of the message below that has been shared with members providing an update on our current situation. -- Kind Regards Eddy Kayihura M. Chief Executive Officer AFRINIC Ltd. ==== t: +230 403 51 00 | tt: @afrinic | https://www.afrinic.net | youtube.com/afrinicmedia ___________________________ Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) ******************************************************************************************************************* This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. ******************************************************************************************************************* > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Eddy Kayihura > Subject: [members-discuss] AFRINIC's Update > Date: 27 July 2021 at 18:31:59 GMT+4 > To: AfriNIC Discuss > > Signed PGP part > Dear Members, > > I wish to share with you an update on the freezing of AFRINIC Financial Accounts and the options we are considering. > > Please watch the video here (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts ) > > Besides, after the recording of the video, there has been a latest development in the matter regarding AFRINIC?s application lodged yesterday seeking a variation of the freezing order. > > The latest update is that the Learned Judge has fixed the matter for August 4th 2021 for the other parties, including the concerned banks, to communicate their stand in the matter. > > We shall update you accordingly. > > Eddy Kayihura > > Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC > > ceo at afrinic.net > > > ??????????????. > > Chers membres, > > Je souhaite partager avec vous une mise ? jour sur le gel des comptes financiers d'AFRINIC et les options que nous envisageons. > > Veuillez regarder la vid?o ici (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts ) - cliquez sur la page en fran?ais pour texte en fran?ais. La vid?o malheureusement n?est disponible qu?en anglais. > > En outre, apr?s l'enregistrement de la vid?o, il y a eu un dernier d?veloppement dans l'affaire concernant la demande d'AFRINIC d?pos?e hier pour une modification de l`ordre de gel de nos comptes. > > La derni?re mise ? jour est que le Learned Judge a fix? l'affaire au 4 ao?t 2021 pour que les autres parties, incluant les banques, communiquent leur position dans l'affaire. > > Nous vous tiendrons inform?s en cons?quence. > > Eddy Kayihura > > Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC > > ceo at afrinic.net > > > > ????????????????. > ????? ??????? > > ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ????????? ???? ????? ?????? AFRINIC ??????? ????????? ???? ??????. > > ???? ?????? ??????? ??? (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts ) > > ????? ??? ??? ? ??? ????? ??????? ? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ???? Afrinic ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???????. > > ??? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ???????? ?? ???? ????? ?? 4 ????? 2021 ??????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ?????. > > ????? ??????? ???? ????. > > Eddy Kayihura > > Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC > > ceo at afrinic.net > > ??. > > > Caros Membros, > > Desejo partilhar convosco uma actualiza??o sobre o congelamento das Contas Financeiras AFRINIC e as op??es que estamos a considerar. > > Por favor, veja o v?deo aqui (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts ) > > Al?m disso, ap?s a grava??o do v?deo, houve um ?ltimo desenvolvimento na quest?o relativa ao pedido da Afrinic apresentado ontem solicitando uma varia??o da ordem de congelamento. > > A ?ltima actualiza??o ? que o Learned Judge fixou o assunto para 4 de Agosto de 2021 para que as outras partes comunicassem a sua posi??o sobre o assunto. > > Iremos actualiz?-lo em conformidade. > > > ___________________________ > > Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? > Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? > Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) > > > ******************************************************************************************************************* > This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. > > ******************************************************************************************************************* > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From eddy at afrinic.net Tue Jul 27 14:44:17 2021 From: eddy at afrinic.net (Eddy Kayihura) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:44:17 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation) References: Message-ID: <37A2A8D5-FBF2-4CCC-9EFD-04D984F9A128@afrinic.net> Dear Colleagues, I realised that the previous message did not have the other languages translations in full. Apologies for the double posting. -- Kind Regards Eddy Kayihura M. Chief Executive Officer AFRINIC Ltd. ==== t: +230 403 51 00 | tt: @afrinic | https://www.afrinic.net | youtube.com/afrinicmedia ___________________________ Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) ******************************************************************************************************************* This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. ******************************************************************************************************************* > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Eddy Kayihura > Subject: AFRINIC's Update > Date: 27 July 2021 at 18:31:59 GMT+4 > To: AfriNIC Discuss > > Dear Members, > > I wish to share with you an update on the freezing of AFRINIC Financial Accounts and the options we are considering. > > Please watch the video here (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts ) > > Besides, after the recording of the video, there has been a latest development in the matter regarding AFRINIC?s application lodged yesterday seeking a variation of the freezing order. > > The latest update is that the Learned Judge has fixed the matter for August 4th 2021 for the other parties, including the concerned banks, to communicate their stand in the matter. > > We shall update you accordingly. > > Eddy Kayihura > > Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC > > ceo at afrinic.net > > > ??????????????. > > Chers membres, > > Je souhaite partager avec vous une mise ? jour sur le gel des comptes financiers d'AFRINIC et les options que nous envisageons. > > Veuillez regarder la vid?o ici (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts ) - cliquez sur la page en fran?ais pour texte en fran?ais. La vid?o malheureusement n?est disponible qu?en anglais. > > En outre, apr?s l'enregistrement de la vid?o, il y a eu un dernier d?veloppement dans l'affaire concernant la demande d'AFRINIC d?pos?e hier pour une modification de l`ordre de gel de nos comptes. > > La derni?re mise ? jour est que le Learned Judge a fix? l'affaire au 4 ao?t 2021 pour que les autres parties, incluant les banques, communiquent leur position dans l'affaire. > > Nous vous tiendrons inform?s en cons?quence. > > Eddy Kayihura > > Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC > > ceo at afrinic.net > > > > ????????????????. > ????? ??????? > > ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ????????? ???? ????? ?????? AFRINIC ??????? ????????? ???? ??????. > > ???? ?????? ??????? ??? (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts ) > > ????? ??? ??? ? ??? ????? ??????? ? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ???? Afrinic ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???????. > > ??? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ???????? ?? ???? ????? ?? 4 ????? 2021 ??????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ?????. > > ????? ??????? ???? ????. > > Eddy Kayihura > > Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC > > ceo at afrinic.net > > ??. > > > Caros Membros, > > Desejo partilhar convosco uma actualiza??o sobre o congelamento das Contas Financeiras AFRINIC e as op??es que estamos a considerar. > > Por favor, veja o v?deo aqui (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts ) > > Al?m disso, ap?s a grava??o do v?deo, houve um ?ltimo desenvolvimento na quest?o relativa ao pedido da Afrinic apresentado ontem solicitando uma varia??o da ordem de congelamento. > > A ?ltima actualiza??o ? que o Learned Judge fixou o assunto para 4 de Agosto de 2021 para que as outras partes comunicassem a sua posi??o sobre o assunto. > > Iremos actualiz?-lo em conformidade. > > > ___________________________ > > Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? > Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? > Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) > > > ******************************************************************************************************************* > This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. > > ******************************************************************************************************************* > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 15:38:02 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 08:38:02 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> References: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:35, Omo Oaiya wrote: > > ? > >> On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: >> >> >> In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite persuasively that >> there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa on Cloud >> on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand. I personally have >> no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I >> personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that >> relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance. But to try >> to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of the >> clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous. It is silly. > I did not deny that a relationship exists. I pointed out that there is no evidence presented to indicate that it is anything more than customer/supplier. > It won?t be the first time we have seen this sort of behaviour from Owen. Even before he became a hired gun for Cloud Innovation. The archive abounds with examples for anyone who cares to look. What kind of behavior are you referring to, exactly, Omo? Stating facts? Sure, I?ve done that for a long time. Questioning accusations made without supporting evidence? Yep, you got me there. Expressing skepticism about attempts to imply wrongdoing through innuendo and implication without actual evidence? Yep, done that too. > AFRINIC is the registry for the African region. Like Noah says, this is a matter of accountability and a moment in AFRINIC history. The much-maligned board needs to bear this in mind and hold strong in their pursuit for equity and justice. If that was what they were pursuing, I?d be all for it. But to call it equity or justice, it must be within the bounds of and guided by the governing documents as written, not some arbitrary sense of vigilantism driven by some unwritten set of ideals. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leoso at afcast.com Tue Jul 27 15:48:07 2021 From: leoso at afcast.com (Leo S) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 23:48:07 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <750C5B12-0163-40BB-937E-3A49482D00AA@delong.com> References: <750C5B12-0163-40BB-937E-3A49482D00AA@delong.com> Message-ID: Hi Owen, I don't know how much you know about your employer. Cloud Innovation Ltd no employees and equipment. Cloud Innovation Ltd Authorize these IP address authorization to LARUS Hong Kong doing lease business. All the LOA I received came from LARUS Hong Kong LARUS does have employees but AFRINIC assigned the address to Cloud Innovation Ltd, a paper entity (brief case companies.) with no employees, equipment and services. On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 1:12 PM Owen DeLong wrote: > > > On Jul 25, 2021, at 09:26 , Leo S wrote: > > Exactly, I am not particularly opposed to their IP leasing business. With > the current exhaustion of IP addresses, many small ISPs have no choice but > to obtain IP addresses from them. Large ISPs will choose to purchase IP > addresses directly. such as alibabacloud. > The current situation poses risks to users who rent their IP addresses. I > think the problem itself is AFRINIC's own problem. Who allocated 7 million > addresses to them? As far as I know, even providers like OVH do not have 7 > million IP addresses. And a paper company can get 7 million IP addresses. > > > Now you have wandered into an inappropriate and false accusation. > > Cloud Innovation is NOT a ?paper company? or a ?shell corporation?. It is > a legitimate business with customers, revenue, accounting, and provides (by > your own admission) a valuable service to the IP number using community. > > Indeed, a service you found useful and valuable at one time. > > I don?t know who OVH is, but I can say that in general, Cloud Innovations > address space is well utilized and their record-keeping is some of the most > meticulous I?ve observed in the industry. > > Every customer provides a needs justification that would be accepted by > virtually any RIR they could apply to and CI is careful not to lease to > spammers and other miscreants. > > They are very responsive to abuse complaints and terminate problem > accounts very quickly. > > In short, they are a real company providing a real and valuable service to > the internet and a model citizen of the IP number resource using community > with the exception that there is some controversy surrounding the idea of > leasing numbers without a connectivity contract. > > What is truly silly about this is that in reality, it would be trivial for > them to create connectivity to eliminate this controversy while still > preserving exactly the same business model in a number of ways. Should the > community pass a policy that prohibits leasing without connectivity, it > will be a simple (though inconvenient) matter for Cloud Innovation to > implement trivial connections to their customers while said customers > continue to advertise their less specifics to the internet via their other > providers. > > > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 12:09 AM Andrew Alston < > Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote: > >> What absolute nonsense - unless there is an NDA protecting the >> relationship people are free to disclose. >> >> That?s like saying I can?t state that I buy jeans from party X - internet >> services from party Y - or eat a particular brand of chocolate. >> > > You are officially banned from Godiva? There, I said it. What are you > going to do about it? > :p > > Yes, you are correct, this is utterly silly. > > Owen > > >> Sorry unless there are confidentiality clauses in place - absolute >> rubbish - and if there are - that is between the buyer and the seller and >> has nothing to do with anyone on here >> >> Andrew >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Meriem Dayday >> *Sent:* Sunday, July 25, 2021 6:53:45 PM >> *To:* Leo S >> *Cc:* community-discuss at afrinic.net >> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and >> their business >> >> Hello, >> >> This is a direct violation of the CoC. >> >> Disclosing such information and data without the company?s consent is a >> clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the >> concerned person. >> >> Having a business or other relationship with the said company does not >> give you the right to divulge such details on a public mailing list. That >> is quite appalling. >> >> Please refrain from violating the CoC and attacking entities in such >> manner. It can only be troublesome. >> >> I am urging the PDWG chairs to act immediately by sanctioning the sender >> and deleting this delicate email from the list. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 ? 15:39, Leo S a ?crit : >> >> About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model. >> They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD >> per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2 >> USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive >> maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price >> >> So the cost is $10,000 USD >> Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million >> so it?s 150000% profit >> >> Part of the cost is spent on RIR community activities and seeking support >> from members, and money will be used to defeat those who oppose it. >> Are there any people in the world who don't love money? Those who accept >> their money will support them in the community. and questioned any action >> of discussion that would be detrimental to them. >> >> Of course, this is Lu Heng. >> He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few >> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart >> and knows who should pay the money to. >> >> >> To rent an IP address from Cloud Innovation Ltd, you do not need to use >> their network services and circuits. Exactly they don't provide network >> service. and I think 90% of IP addresses are used in North America and Asia >> >> >> I don't know much about AFRINIC's policy. But in ARIN you must have a >> circuit or network service then you can rent an IP address from the >> provider. >> >> The AFRINIC internal audit action may be detrimental to Cloud Innovation >> Ltd, so they started some network services in South Africa last year as >> Africa on cloud. but it's a small network. I think the revenue from these >> services may account for less than 10% of their revenue. so 90% of their >> revenue still from IPv4 address leasing business >> >> It can be seen from their income that they have enough money to support >> the lawsuit against AFRINIC. And spend money in the community to fight for >> their address not to be revoked. >> very sad AFRINIC is too poor >> >> By the way, I was also their customer before >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leoso at afcast.com Tue Jul 27 15:55:41 2021 From: leoso at afcast.com (Leo S) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 23:55:41 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <745F630B-A186-481C-9704-BCA2A0869089@delong.com> References: <31299.1627244609@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <745F630B-A186-481C-9704-BCA2A0869089@delong.com> Message-ID: You are right. You are a professional, I think you will not ignore the allocation date such as you listed held by: Non-LIRs (end users): Hewlett Packard Apple Computer Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not: Amateur Radio (AMPR) LIRs: XFINITY/Comcast Verizon Akamai XO Communications Amazon Microsoft Google etc. On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 1:24 PM Owen DeLong wrote: > If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please consider > the amount of space > held by: > > Non-LIRs (end users): > Hewlett Packard > Apple Computer > > Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not: > Amateur Radio (AMPR) > > LIRs: > XFINITY/Comcast > Verizon > Akamai > XO Communications > Amazon > Microsoft > Google > etc. > > The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the above > organizations. > > Owen > > > On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S wrote: > > Hi Ronald > Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a shocking > number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block allocated. This > is not in 199x year. > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: > >> In message < >> CALm9Cbn+R9oen9+9YBjfbK5gGTcmEmZ1yhxgDfw04OTC3MxeZg at mail.gmail.com> >> Meriem Dayday wrote: >> >> >This is a direct violation of the CoC. >> >> No, actually, it isn't. >> >> The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use of >> it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is effectively >> public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any number of >> public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net, etc.) >> >> If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it an >> affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the >> telescope and then just describe what they saw? And if so, then what >> is next? Book burning? >> >> >Disclosing such information and data without the company's consent is a >> >clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the >> >concerned person. >> >> OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different obvious >> logical problems. >> >> First, the Internet is *not* a private network. Fact's about what various >> companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to learn, >> without needing the consent of the companies inolved. That is the nature >> of the Internet. If you want to run your own closed private intranet, >> then go head. Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last >> detail of your corporate operations utterly secret. But the minute any >> company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it >> *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange for being >> a part of, and a participant on this great communications experiment we >> call the Internet. >> >> I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud >> Innovation. >> And yet even well before today I already determined for myself that well >> more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered IPv4 >> address space was being deployed to other continents. This is not a state >> secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100% public >> sources. Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same >> information. >> >> Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its >> assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific >> RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate question, >> and one which I myself do not have an answer to. In any case, the >> courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. But the >> mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its AFRINIC-assigned >> resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the available >> public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets. Any attempt to portray >> them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship. >> >> The second logical problem with the statement above is contained in the >> part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences >> on the concerned person." >> >> Exactly so! If the guy who posted the material you are reacting to was >> willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE OF the >> possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for defamation, >> then why are YOU worried about it? Why should AFRINIC be worried about >> it? Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation lawsuit >> is only a problem for the guy who posted the (allegedly) defamatory >> text, and he obviiously was willing to take the risk in order to express >> his opinion, SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? >> >> Here again, shouting down in the original poster in this manner appears >> to me to be just another a heavy-handed attempt at pointless censorship. >> >> I hope that we here can all have open and frank discusions of all of the >> issues now of concern to AFRINIC without these kinds of attempts to >> muzzle dissenting viewpoints based on perfectly silly arguments. >> >> >> Regards, >> rfg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 16:01:35 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 09:01:35 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation) In-Reply-To: <37A2A8D5-FBF2-4CCC-9EFD-04D984F9A128@afrinic.net> References: <37A2A8D5-FBF2-4CCC-9EFD-04D984F9A128@afrinic.net> Message-ID: You also left out the part where the judge denied your ex parte request when setting the hearing for August 4. For the avoidance of doubt, I have attached a copy of the Judge?s order here: Owen > On Jul 27, 2021, at 07:44 , Eddy Kayihura wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > I realised that the previous message did not have the other languages translations in full. > > Apologies for the double posting. > -- > > Kind Regards > > Eddy Kayihura M. > Chief Executive Officer > AFRINIC Ltd. > ==== > t: +230 403 51 00 | tt: @afrinic | https://www.afrinic.net | youtube.com/afrinicmedia > ___________________________ > > Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? > Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? > Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) > > > ******************************************************************************************************************* > This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. > > ******************************************************************************************************************* > > > >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: Eddy Kayihura > >> Subject: AFRINIC's Update >> Date: 27 July 2021 at 18:31:59 GMT+4 >> To: AfriNIC Discuss > >> >> Dear Members, >> >> I wish to share with you an update on the freezing of AFRINIC Financial Accounts and the options we are considering. >> >> Please watch the video here (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts ) >> >> Besides, after the recording of the video, there has been a latest development in the matter regarding AFRINIC?s application lodged yesterday seeking a variation of the freezing order. >> >> The latest update is that the Learned Judge has fixed the matter for August 4th 2021 for the other parties, including the concerned banks, to communicate their stand in the matter. >> >> We shall update you accordingly. >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> >> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC >> >> ceo at afrinic.net >> >> >> ??????????????. >> >> Chers membres, >> >> Je souhaite partager avec vous une mise ? jour sur le gel des comptes financiers d'AFRINIC et les options que nous envisageons. >> >> Veuillez regarder la vid?o ici (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts ) - cliquez sur la page en fran?ais pour texte en fran?ais. La vid?o malheureusement n?est disponible qu?en anglais. >> >> En outre, apr?s l'enregistrement de la vid?o, il y a eu un dernier d?veloppement dans l'affaire concernant la demande d'AFRINIC d?pos?e hier pour une modification de l`ordre de gel de nos comptes. >> >> La derni?re mise ? jour est que le Learned Judge a fix? l'affaire au 4 ao?t 2021 pour que les autres parties, incluant les banques, communiquent leur position dans l'affaire. >> >> Nous vous tiendrons inform?s en cons?quence. >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> >> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC >> >> ceo at afrinic.net >> >> >> >> ????????????????. >> ????? ??????? >> >> ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ????????? ???? ????? ?????? AFRINIC ??????? ????????? ???? ??????. >> >> ???? ?????? ??????? ??? (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts ) >> >> ????? ??? ??? ? ??? ????? ??????? ? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ???? Afrinic ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???????. >> >> ??? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ???????? ?? ???? ????? ?? 4 ????? 2021 ??????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ?????. >> >> ????? ??????? ???? ????. >> >> Eddy Kayihura >> >> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC >> >> ceo at afrinic.net >> >> ??. >> >> >> Caros Membros, >> >> Desejo partilhar convosco uma actualiza??o sobre o congelamento das Contas Financeiras AFRINIC e as op??es que estamos a considerar. >> >> Por favor, veja o v?deo aqui (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts ) >> >> Al?m disso, ap?s a grava??o do v?deo, houve um ?ltimo desenvolvimento na quest?o relativa ao pedido da Afrinic apresentado ontem solicitando uma varia??o da ordem de congelamento. >> >> A ?ltima actualiza??o ? que o Learned Judge fixou o assunto para 4 de Agosto de 2021 para que as outras partes comunicassem a sua posi??o sobre o assunto. >> >> Iremos actualiz?-lo em conformidade. >> >> >> ___________________________ >> >> Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? >> Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? >> Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) >> >> >> ******************************************************************************************************************* >> This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. >> >> ******************************************************************************************************************* >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Judge's Order 27 July 2021 -18760920210727172338.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 19697 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 16:09:44 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 09:09:44 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <4ad88a26-f9d2-7ec6-b5f7-1ef518092fa6@geier.ne.tz> References: <4ad88a26-f9d2-7ec6-b5f7-1ef518092fa6@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: <21421F9F-001E-43D3-A3EA-37184F4CE7F8@delong.com> > On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:26 , Frank Habicht wrote: > > Hi Owen, > > On 27/07/2021 08:28, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: >> >> >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 04:01 , Noah >> > wrote: >>> So while checking some statistics with a good friend over the weekend, >>> we just noted that actually Cloud Innovation has more IPv4 addresses >>> than East African countries of Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda and I won't >>> even bother posting for Rwanda, Burundi and South Sudan because its sad. >> >> It also serves more end users than the population of all of those >> countries combined. What is your point? > > "serves" ...? Yes. > with connectivity? In some cases. > Or by "buying" IPv4 addresses one place and "selling"/leasing them > another place. By providing a variety of services, some of which include IP address management independent of connectivity. > this is to me closer to speculation than the stated intention of > > 1. the resource we take are using in africa. > 2. we are investing in africa. We are definitely investing in Africa. That statement remains true. Regarding the former statement, things do change over time. At the time the statement was made, it was true. Today, the statement ?many of the resources we received from AFRINIC are being used in Africa? would be more accurate. > which is a quote from > https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html Yes? It?s a 7 year old statement which was true at the time. > and which I understand was good reason to receive IPv4 addresses. > *was* > when it was true. And today, a good reason to keep the addresses is: We use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own and our customers networks. This is a perfectly valid justification for addresses and there is no basis in current policy to deny it and it remains a true statement to this day. Owen From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 16:27:34 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 09:27:34 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> References: <31299.1627244609@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <745F630B-A186-481C-9704-BCA2A0869089@delong.com> <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: > On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:31 , Frank Habicht wrote: > > Hi, > > did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect > our customers in Africa" ? I have no idea what they did or did not commit to with regards to Africa. How is that relevant to the question at hand regarding the amount of address space in question? > Did CI? 7 years ago, CI made such a statement. CI subsequently adapted to the changing business environment and expanded its operations to include both Africa and other continents. CI submitted appropriate updates to WHOIS as these changes occurred. > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity. Where is your basis in policy for this? Owen > > On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: >> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please consider >> the amount of space >> held by: >> >> Non-LIRs (end users): >> Hewlett Packard >> Apple Computer >> >> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not: >> Amateur Radio (AMPR) >> >> LIRs: >> XFINITY/Comcast >> Verizon >> Akamai >> XO Communications >> Amazon >> Microsoft >> Google >> etc. >> >> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the >> above organizations. >> >> Owen >> >> >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S >> >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Ronald >>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a >>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block >>> allocated. This is not in 199x year. >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette >>> >> wrote: >>> >>> In message >>> >> >>> Meriem Dayday >>> >> wrote: >>> >>>> This is a direct violation of the CoC. >>> >>> No, actually, it isn't. >>> >>> The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use of >>> it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is >>> effectively >>> public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any >>> number of >>> public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net >, etc.) >>> >>> If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it an >>> affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the >>> telescope and then just describe what they saw? And if so, then what >>> is next? Book burning? >>> >>>> Disclosing such information and data without the company's >>> consent is a >>>> clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the >>>> concerned person. >>> >>> OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different >>> obvious >>> logical problems. >>> >>> First, the Internet is *not* a private network. Fact's about what >>> various >>> companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to learn, >>> without needing the consent of the companies inolved. That is the >>> nature >>> of the Internet. If you want to run your own closed private intranet, >>> then go head. Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last >>> detail of your corporate operations utterly secret. But the >>> minute any >>> company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it >>> *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange >>> for being >>> a part of, and a participant on this great communications >>> experiment we >>> call the Internet. >>> >>> I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud >>> Innovation. >>> And yet even well before today I already determined for myself >>> that well >>> more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered IPv4 >>> address space was being deployed to other continents. This is not >>> a state >>> secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100% >>> public >>> sources. Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same >>> information. >>> >>> Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its >>> assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific >>> RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate question, >>> and one which I myself do not have an answer to. In any case, the >>> courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. >>> But the >>> mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its AFRINIC-assigned >>> resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the >>> available >>> public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets. Any attempt to portray >>> them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship. >>> >>> The second logical problem with the statement above is contained >>> in the >>> part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal >>> consequences >>> on the concerned person." >>> >>> Exactly so! If the guy who posted the material you are reacting >>> to was >>> willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE OF the >>> possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for defamation, >>> then why are YOU worried about it? Why should AFRINIC be worried >>> about >>> it? Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation lawsuit >>> is only a problem for the guy who posted the (allegedly) defamatory >>> text, and he obviiously was willing to take the risk in order to >>> express >>> his opinion, SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? >>> >>> Here again, shouting down in the original poster in this manner >>> appears >>> to me to be just another a heavy-handed attempt at pointless >>> censorship. >>> >>> I hope that we here can all have open and frank discusions of all >>> of the >>> issues now of concern to AFRINIC without these kinds of attempts to >>> muzzle dissenting viewpoints based on perfectly silly arguments. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> rfg >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Jul 27 16:35:16 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 09:35:16 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> <852257D7-1C77-48A8-B573-DBBD79EAE6B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <63CEBB08-C0FF-43A3-8BBE-669ECF5D9B97@delong.com> > On Jul 27, 2021, at 06:19 , Noah wrote: > > > > On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 15:20 Antone Ubah, > wrote: > Oh Noah, > > 'Afraid' you say? Of what? Of whom? What are my stakes? What are your stakes? > There is an ongoing legal process between parties involved, am I wrong? If anyone or group has input to that, is it not right to funnel such down the appropriate channels? > > > Or are you the arm behind the puppets? The grand puppeteer popping up characters to incite friction.? > > > As far as I know and for a fact, you Antony are a puppet associated with Heng Lu. Do you have evidence to support this ad hominem? > I know this for a fact and enough data to prove it. Then please do share? > Whoever Lili Au is, they have the right to speak and dont call them trolls. It is interesting how you simultaneously engage in ad hominem against one person while calling for an end to ad hominem against another. In reality, the ad hominem should stop in both directions. You should stop making ad hominem attacks and so should Anthony (and anyone else). Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leoso at afcast.com Tue Jul 27 17:16:03 2021 From: leoso at afcast.com (Leo S) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 01:16:03 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <32377.1627265051@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <65EA2D35-E7DB-4BAE-A37D-B72256205416@gmail.com> Message-ID: I just share the information that I know. And seeing a bunch of mercenaries and Water Army in the community is very disgusting. On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 7:39 PM Anthony Ubah wrote: > Dear Leo S, > > You are churning out awesome figures here, unarguably so. However, I wish > you can spare some time to responded to my question on motive. > While this is all now glaring, it is important to know if you are here > shedding light, providing heat, or fanning smokes into our eyes? > You seem to be baiting the community with your posts. *"This is good news > for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the IP address for the > end user."* > > > *Regards,* > > *Anthony* > > > > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:01 AM Leo S wrote: > >> These addresses are worth more than 100 million US dollars. If the >> address is revoked. For them, they will face a loss of 90% of their income >> Forced to close business. They will go all out, For Cloud Innovation Ltd, >> this is more than 100 million US dollars in cash. For AFRINIC it's a mere >> $10,000 USD. Actions that can be taken in the face of such a large amount >> of money so I think AFRINIC may fail finally or compromise. >> >> This is good news for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the >> IP address for the end user. >> >> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 11:30 AM Ibeanusi Elvis >> wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> This is information of whatever anyone might choose to call it from Leo, >>> shades no light to present discussion at hand. >>> To me, this is a clear defamation and personal attack to this "Lu Heng? >>> guy. >>> This is a clear violation of the Code of Conduct and there should be no >>> question whether this is a personal attack or not. >>> >>> Best, >>> Elvis. >>> >>> > On Jul 26, 2021, at 11:04, Ronald F. Guilmette >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > In message < >>> CAKKt+fDLeYDt7jQVMVSrUuH5OUhL4XvvPb1bbiKSCx5wocguYg at mail.gmail.com> >>> > Wijdane Goubi wrote: >>> > >>> >> *He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A >>> few >>> >> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is >>> smart >>> >> and knows who should pay the money to. >>> >> >>> >>> Leo's statement here hints that this guy called Lu Heng has engaged >>> in >>> >> some sort of bribing. How is this not personal attack defamation? >>> > >>> > I am forced to agree that Leo's second sentence, as quoted above, >>> contitutes >>> > "casting aspersions" and in the absence of hard supporting evidence it >>> was >>> > inappropriate, uncalled for, and contributed only heat and no light to >>> > the present discussion. >>> > >>> > I made the exact same sort of mistake myself, right here on this >>> mailing >>> > list, back in 2016, and later publicly apologized for that. Perhaps >>> that >>> > explains why I am less inclined that others to make a huge issue out of >>> > such utterances when they are made in the heat of the moment and >>> without >>> > adequate thought. >>> > >>> > I think that it should be sufficient to politely ask Leo to retract >>> that >>> > one sentence, to apologize, and then let it go at that. We already >>> have >>> > more than enough wars to fight, tribal and otherwise, and we shouldn't >>> be >>> > looking for reasons to start up new ones just based on this or that >>> > ill-considered statement that may be made by any of us during those >>> times >>> > when our passions override our reason. >>> > >>> > >>> > Regards, >>> > rfg >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Community-Discuss mailing list >>> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robertford2 at icloud.com Tue Jul 27 18:23:39 2021 From: robertford2 at icloud.com (robert ford) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 20:23:39 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9BBC9D51-A4B8-4219-AEB4-AEC7A9CC9808@icloud.com> This is well noted. Thank you CEO. Ford Sent from my iPhone > On 27 Jul 2021, at 18:04, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: > > ?You also left out the part where the judge denied your ex parte request when setting the hearing for August 4. > > For the avoidance of doubt, I have attached a copy of the Judge?s order here: > > > > > Owen > > >> On Jul 27, 2021, at 07:44 , Eddy Kayihura wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> I realised that the previous message did not have the other languages translations in full. >> >> Apologies for the double posting. >> -- >> >> Kind Regards >> >> Eddy Kayihura M. >> Chief Executive Officer >> AFRINIC Ltd. >> ==== >> t: +230 403 51 00 | tt: @afrinic | https://www.afrinic.net | youtube.com/afrinicmedia >> ___________________________ >> >> Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? >> Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? >> Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) >> >> >> ******************************************************************************************************************* >> This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. >> >> ******************************************************************************************************************* >> >> >> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> From: Eddy Kayihura >>> Subject: AFRINIC's Update >>> Date: 27 July 2021 at 18:31:59 GMT+4 >>> To: AfriNIC Discuss >>> >>> Dear Members, >>> >>> I wish to share with you an update on the freezing of AFRINIC Financial Accounts and the options we are considering. >>> >>> Please watch the video here (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts) >>> >>> Besides, after the recording of the video, there has been a latest development in the matter regarding AFRINIC?s application lodged yesterday seeking a variation of the freezing order. >>> >>> The latest update is that the Learned Judge has fixed the matter for August 4th 2021 for the other parties, including the concerned banks, to communicate their stand in the matter. >>> >>> We shall update you accordingly. >>> >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> >>> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC >>> >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> >>> >>> ??????????????. >>> >>> Chers membres, >>> >>> Je souhaite partager avec vous une mise ? jour sur le gel des comptes financiers d'AFRINIC et les options que nous envisageons. >>> >>> Veuillez regarder la vid?o ici (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts) - cliquez sur la page en fran?ais pour texte en fran?ais. La vid?o malheureusement n?est disponible qu?en anglais. >>> >>> En outre, apr?s l'enregistrement de la vid?o, il y a eu un dernier d?veloppement dans l'affaire concernant la demande d'AFRINIC d?pos?e hier pour une modification de l`ordre de gel de nos comptes. >>> >>> La derni?re mise ? jour est que le Learned Judge a fix? l'affaire au 4 ao?t 2021 pour que les autres parties, incluant les banques, communiquent leur position dans l'affaire. >>> >>> Nous vous tiendrons inform?s en cons?quence. >>> >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> >>> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC >>> >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> >>> >>> >>> ????????????????. >>> ????? ??????? >>> >>> ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ????????? ???? ????? ?????? AFRINIC ??????? ????????? ???? ??????. >>> >>> ???? ?????? ??????? ??? (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts) >>> >>> ????? ??? ??? ? ??? ????? ??????? ? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ???? Afrinic ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???????. >>> >>> ??? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ???????? ?? ???? ????? ?? 4 ????? 2021 ??????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ?????. >>> >>> ????? ??????? ???? ????. >>> >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> >>> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC >>> >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> >>> ??. >>> >>> >>> Caros Membros, >>> >>> Desejo partilhar convosco uma actualiza??o sobre o congelamento das Contas Financeiras AFRINIC e as op??es que estamos a considerar. >>> >>> Por favor, veja o v?deo aqui (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts) >>> >>> Al?m disso, ap?s a grava??o do v?deo, houve um ?ltimo desenvolvimento na quest?o relativa ao pedido da Afrinic apresentado ontem solicitando uma varia??o da ordem de congelamento. >>> >>> A ?ltima actualiza??o ? que o Learned Judge fixou o assunto para 4 de Agosto de 2021 para que as outras partes comunicassem a sua posi??o sobre o assunto. >>> >>> Iremos actualiz?-lo em conformidade. >>> >>> >>> ___________________________ >>> >>> Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? >>> Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? >>> Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) >>> >>> >>> ******************************************************************************************************************* >>> This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. >>> >>> ******************************************************************************************************************* >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Tue Jul 27 18:38:44 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 21:38:44 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <31299.1627244609@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <745F630B-A186-481C-9704-BCA2A0869089@delong.com> <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 7:32 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity. > > > Where is your basis in policy for this? > Let me attempt to answer your fake question with links that show AFRINIC members from some of the 54 AFRICAN countries with real networks in AFRICA. https://bgp.he.net/country/KE https://bgp.he.net/country/TZ https://bgp.he.net/country/ZA https://bgp.he.net/country/NG https://bgp.he.net/country/MU Or wait... I can not find this so-called LIR *Cloud Innovation Limited* with offices in Seychelles using this BGP tool. *https://bgp.he.net/country/SC * You try so hard to pretend with your alternative reality in your quest to defend Heng Lu and his IP ADDRESS SOLUTIONS business run under his subsidiary HongKong company Larus https://www.larus.net/ FYI... "AFRINIC has never approved any application for IP space for the purpose of leasing despite having received such requests." https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-February/003907.html Cheers, Noah PS: The ALLOCATION POLICY is linked to the AFRINIC BYLAWS which are both linked to the AFRINIC RSA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amelnaud at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 19:00:58 2021 From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 19:00:58 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <31299.1627244609@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <745F630B-A186-481C-9704-BCA2A0869089@delong.com> <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: @Noah +10000.... Le mar. 27 juil. 2021 ? 18:41, Noah a ?crit : > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 7:32 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > >> >> PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing >> just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity. >> >> >> Where is your basis in policy for this? >> > > Let me attempt to answer your fake question with links that show AFRINIC > members from some of the 54 AFRICAN countries with real networks in AFRICA. > > https://bgp.he.net/country/KE > https://bgp.he.net/country/TZ > https://bgp.he.net/country/ZA > https://bgp.he.net/country/NG > https://bgp.he.net/country/MU > > Or wait... I can not find this so-called LIR *Cloud Innovation Limited* with > offices in Seychelles using this BGP tool. > > > *https://bgp.he.net/country/SC * > > You try so hard to pretend with your alternative reality in your quest to > defend Heng Lu and his IP ADDRESS SOLUTIONS business run under his > subsidiary HongKong company Larus https://www.larus.net/ > > FYI... "AFRINIC has never approved any application for IP space for the > purpose of leasing despite having received such requests." > > > https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-February/003907.html > > Cheers, > Noah > PS: The ALLOCATION POLICY is linked to the AFRINIC BYLAWS which are both > linked to the AFRINIC RSA. > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geier at geier.ne.tz Tue Jul 27 19:07:37 2021 From: geier at geier.ne.tz (Frank Habicht) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 22:07:37 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <21421F9F-001E-43D3-A3EA-37184F4CE7F8@delong.com> References: <4ad88a26-f9d2-7ec6-b5f7-1ef518092fa6@geier.ne.tz> <21421F9F-001E-43D3-A3EA-37184F4CE7F8@delong.com> Message-ID: <8430721b-7fcd-e6ec-8b20-b0af673ae9eb@geier.ne.tz> Hi Owen, On 27/07/2021 19:09, Owen DeLong wrote: >> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:26 , Frank Habicht wrote: >>> It also serves more end users than the population of all of those >>> countries combined. What is your point? >> >> "serves" ...? > Yes.>> with connectivity? > > In some cases. I'll just mentally insert the word "few" in there, because i haven't seen any yet. >> Or by "buying" IPv4 addresses one place and "selling"/leasing them >> another place. > > By providing a variety of services, some of which include IP address management > independent of connectivity. "variety of services" So my first thought was to press and the key between v and n and then and the key between a and d gosh, at the risk of getting my hand slapped, just to make sure i'm understood : BS - bullshit! "IP address management" putting something into AfriNIC's Whois / IRR ? reverse DNS delegations? [ probably only at extra cost (wild guess) ] Using AfriNIC's auth DNS servers, by just updating domain: objects? >> this is to me closer to speculation than the stated intention of >> >> 1. the resource we take are using in africa. >> 2. we are investing in africa. > > We are definitely investing in Africa. That statement remains true. No doubt. Lawyers in Mauritius. > Regarding the former statement, things do change over time. Agree. Also validity of justifications of IPv4 space. I maintain this: - I have no idea how it was justified. - I have no right to see this justification. - I consider it likely that commitments have been made. - I consider it likely that not all were - and still are - fulfilled. > At the time the statement was made, it was true. I do currently believe that. > Today, the statement ?many of the resources we received from AFRINIC are being used in Africa? would be more accurate. I'm still not too sure about my English knowledge. Especially about "many". I generally encourage people to be as specific as possible. Can I interpret this as "more than three IPv4 addresses we received from AFRINIC are being used in Africa? ? >> which is a quote from >> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html > > Yes? It?s a 7 year old statement which was true at the time. And I believe so was the justification for IPv4 addresses - at the time. Currently, I believe that. That back then the justification was ok. >> and which I understand was good reason to receive IPv4 addresses. >> *was* >> when it was true. > > And today, a good reason to keep the addresses is: > We use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own and our customers networks. "own network" ? I believe that in your home area it would be a very valid question to ask: "which AS is that?" (ie on nanog) "customers networks." "customer" certainly not in terms of connectivity. [ to be specific: for 99% of traffic towards these IPs [1], I hazard the guess that it doesn't pass through CI connectivity.] but "customer" instead only in terms of leasing IP addresses. which you (CI) got the right to do when getting them from AfriNIC in the first place??? I beg to doubt!!! And I think this is what it's all about. CI interpretation vs AfriNIC interpretation. And I think that latter is shared with a majority of the community. > This is a perfectly valid justification for addresses and there is no basis in current policy to deny it and > it remains a true statement to this day. If it was a perfectly valid justification to provide addresses to CI's "customers" - without the "customers" receiving (for all the duration of the lease) any services but the lease of IPv4 addresses (not counting BS-"IP address management"), and with that fact (of leasing) being stated in said justification - and this accepted as justification at the time by AfriNIC, then I rest my case. Frank PS: sorry for the long sentence, it seems my mind turned "legal". [1] "these IPs": 2x /11 and 2x /12 From geier at geier.ne.tz Tue Jul 27 19:26:15 2021 From: geier at geier.ne.tz (Frank Habicht) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 22:26:15 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <31299.1627244609@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <745F630B-A186-481C-9704-BCA2A0869089@delong.com> <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: On 27/07/2021 19:27, Owen DeLong wrote: >> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:31 , Frank Habicht > > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect >> our customers in Africa" ? > > I have no idea what they did or did not commit to with regards to Africa. > How is that relevant to the question at hand regarding the amount of address > space in question? I really hope we can agree that AfriNIC did never outright "sell" the IP address space. But gave the right to use subject to justification(s). If not, we seem to live in different universes. >> Did CI? > > 7 years ago, CI made such a statement. CI subsequently adapted to the > changing business > environment and expanded its operations to include both Africa and other > continents. CI > submitted appropriate updates to WHOIS as these changes occurred. I am not sure whether AfriNIC expanded it's acceptance for the use of IP resources by CI to the same extent. >> PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing >> just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity. > > Where is your basis in policy for this? In the justification from CI for the IP address space. which I haven't seen. Want to share? Frank From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Tue Jul 27 19:30:31 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 21:30:31 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <8430721b-7fcd-e6ec-8b20-b0af673ae9eb@geier.ne.tz> References: <4ad88a26-f9d2-7ec6-b5f7-1ef518092fa6@geier.ne.tz> <21421F9F-001E-43D3-A3EA-37184F4CE7F8@delong.com> <8430721b-7fcd-e6ec-8b20-b0af673ae9eb@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: <82C1F7EE-9A34-4630-9C9C-B8AF73B6E147@consulintel.es> This will be very simple to resolve (not taking a position in one side or the other because I don't have all the real facts and documents). The original justificacion of the request of the resources I don't think it had so many "secret" and "confidential" details. After several years if any "secrets" were there, probably aren't longer something that can't published now. So why not CI, voluntarely publish that information? I don't have any stance on this game, but if I was CI, this will be the best way to probe my points. Otherwise, I will suggest that AFRINIC asks the court to incorporate that in the proceedings if is not there already, this way, whatever is the result of the case, everybody will know it. At least in the countries I know, the results of the cases are public, as well as the documents that were incorporated during all the process: transparency. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet ?El 27/7/21 21:12, "Frank Habicht" escribi?: Hi Owen, On 27/07/2021 19:09, Owen DeLong wrote: >> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:26 , Frank Habicht wrote: >>> It also serves more end users than the population of all of those >>> countries combined. What is your point? >> >> "serves" ...? > Yes.>> with connectivity? > > In some cases. I'll just mentally insert the word "few" in there, because i haven't seen any yet. >> Or by "buying" IPv4 addresses one place and "selling"/leasing them >> another place. > > By providing a variety of services, some of which include IP address management > independent of connectivity. "variety of services" So my first thought was to press and the key between v and n and then and the key between a and d gosh, at the risk of getting my hand slapped, just to make sure i'm understood : BS - bullshit! "IP address management" putting something into AfriNIC's Whois / IRR ? reverse DNS delegations? [ probably only at extra cost (wild guess) ] Using AfriNIC's auth DNS servers, by just updating domain: objects? >> this is to me closer to speculation than the stated intention of >> >> 1. the resource we take are using in africa. >> 2. we are investing in africa. > > We are definitely investing in Africa. That statement remains true. No doubt. Lawyers in Mauritius. > Regarding the former statement, things do change over time. Agree. Also validity of justifications of IPv4 space. I maintain this: - I have no idea how it was justified. - I have no right to see this justification. - I consider it likely that commitments have been made. - I consider it likely that not all were - and still are - fulfilled. > At the time the statement was made, it was true. I do currently believe that. > Today, the statement ?many of the resources we received from AFRINIC are being used in Africa? would be more accurate. I'm still not too sure about my English knowledge. Especially about "many". I generally encourage people to be as specific as possible. Can I interpret this as "more than three IPv4 addresses we received from AFRINIC are being used in Africa? ? >> which is a quote from >> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html > > Yes? It?s a 7 year old statement which was true at the time. And I believe so was the justification for IPv4 addresses - at the time. Currently, I believe that. That back then the justification was ok. >> and which I understand was good reason to receive IPv4 addresses. >> *was* >> when it was true. > > And today, a good reason to keep the addresses is: > We use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own and our customers networks. "own network" ? I believe that in your home area it would be a very valid question to ask: "which AS is that?" (ie on nanog) "customers networks." "customer" certainly not in terms of connectivity. [ to be specific: for 99% of traffic towards these IPs [1], I hazard the guess that it doesn't pass through CI connectivity.] but "customer" instead only in terms of leasing IP addresses. which you (CI) got the right to do when getting them from AfriNIC in the first place??? I beg to doubt!!! And I think this is what it's all about. CI interpretation vs AfriNIC interpretation. And I think that latter is shared with a majority of the community. > This is a perfectly valid justification for addresses and there is no basis in current policy to deny it and > it remains a true statement to this day. If it was a perfectly valid justification to provide addresses to CI's "customers" - without the "customers" receiving (for all the duration of the lease) any services but the lease of IPv4 addresses (not counting BS-"IP address management"), and with that fact (of leasing) being stated in said justification - and this accepted as justification at the time by AfriNIC, then I rest my case. Frank PS: sorry for the long sentence, it seems my mind turned "legal". [1] "these IPs": 2x /11 and 2x /12 _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From geier at geier.ne.tz Tue Jul 27 19:39:04 2021 From: geier at geier.ne.tz (Frank Habicht) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 22:39:04 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <82C1F7EE-9A34-4630-9C9C-B8AF73B6E147@consulintel.es> References: <4ad88a26-f9d2-7ec6-b5f7-1ef518092fa6@geier.ne.tz> <21421F9F-001E-43D3-A3EA-37184F4CE7F8@delong.com> <8430721b-7fcd-e6ec-8b20-b0af673ae9eb@geier.ne.tz> <82C1F7EE-9A34-4630-9C9C-B8AF73B6E147@consulintel.es> Message-ID: <789d7a80-9fae-4ca4-c69a-d31bae7cc3d4@geier.ne.tz> Hi Jordi, On 27/07/2021 22:30, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote: > This will be very simple to resolve (not taking a position in one side or the other because I don't have all the real facts and documents). > > The original justificacion of the request of the resources I don't think it had so many "secret" and "confidential" details. After several years if any "secrets" were there, probably aren't longer something that can't published now. > > So why not CI, voluntarely publish that information? I don't have any stance on this game, but if I was CI, this will be the best way to probe my points. it seems 4 minutes earlier I suggested same to Owen. > Otherwise, I will suggest that AFRINIC asks the court to incorporate that in the proceedings if is not there already, this way, whatever is the result of the case, everybody will know it. At least in the countries I know, the results of the cases are public, as well as the documents that were incorporated during all the process: transparency. I don't know whether or not (under the Mauritius legal system) the information/documents will become public. I certainly would like to have AfriNIC ask the courts to consider them. I was hoping that was clear from my previous emails. Frank > > Regards, > Jordi > @jordipalet > > > > ?El 27/7/21 21:12, "Frank Habicht" escribi?: > > Hi Owen, > > On 27/07/2021 19:09, Owen DeLong wrote: > >> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:26 , Frank Habicht wrote: > >>> It also serves more end users than the population of all of those > >>> countries combined. What is your point? > >> > >> "serves" ...? > > Yes.>> with connectivity? > > > > In some cases. > > I'll just mentally insert the word "few" in there, because i haven't > seen any yet. > > > >> Or by "buying" IPv4 addresses one place and "selling"/leasing them > >> another place. > > > > By providing a variety of services, some of which include IP address management > > independent of connectivity. > > "variety of services" > So my first thought was to press and the key between v and n > and then and the key between a and d > > gosh, at the risk of getting my hand slapped, just to make sure i'm > understood : BS - bullshit! > > > "IP address management" > putting something into AfriNIC's Whois / IRR ? > reverse DNS delegations? > [ probably only at extra cost (wild guess) ] > Using AfriNIC's auth DNS servers, by just updating domain: objects? > > > >> this is to me closer to speculation than the stated intention of > >> > >> 1. the resource we take are using in africa. > >> 2. we are investing in africa. > > > > We are definitely investing in Africa. That statement remains true. > > No doubt. > Lawyers in Mauritius. > > > > Regarding the former statement, things do change over time. > > Agree. > Also validity of justifications of IPv4 space. > I maintain this: > - I have no idea how it was justified. > - I have no right to see this justification. > - I consider it likely that commitments have been made. > - I consider it likely that not all were - and still are - fulfilled. > > > At the time the statement was made, it was true. > > I do currently believe that. > > > Today, the statement ?many of the resources we received from AFRINIC are being used in Africa? would be more accurate. > > I'm still not too sure about my English knowledge. Especially about > "many". I generally encourage people to be as specific as possible. > Can I interpret this as "more than three IPv4 addresses we received from > AFRINIC are being used in Africa? ? > > > >> which is a quote from > >> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html > > > > Yes? It?s a 7 year old statement which was true at the time. > > And I believe so was the justification for IPv4 addresses - at the time. > Currently, I believe that. That back then the justification was ok. > > > >> and which I understand was good reason to receive IPv4 addresses. > >> *was* > >> when it was true. > > > > And today, a good reason to keep the addresses is: > > We use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own and our customers networks. > > "own network" ? > I believe that in your home area it would be a very valid question to > ask: "which AS is that?" (ie on nanog) > > "customers networks." > "customer" certainly not in terms of connectivity. > [ to be specific: for 99% of traffic towards these IPs [1], I hazard the > guess that it doesn't pass through CI connectivity.] > > but "customer" instead only in terms of leasing IP addresses. > which you (CI) got the right to do when getting them from AfriNIC in the > first place??? I beg to doubt!!! > > And I think this is what it's all about. CI interpretation vs AfriNIC > interpretation. And I think that latter is shared with a majority of the > community. > > > This is a perfectly valid justification for addresses and there is no basis in current policy to deny it and > > it remains a true statement to this day. > > If > it was a perfectly valid justification to provide addresses to CI's > "customers" - without the "customers" receiving (for all the duration of > the lease) any services but the lease of IPv4 addresses (not counting > BS-"IP address management"), and with that fact (of leasing) being > stated in said justification - and this accepted as justification at the > time by AfriNIC, > then > I rest my case. > > > Frank > > PS: sorry for the long sentence, it seems my mind turned "legal". > > [1] > "these IPs": > 2x /11 and 2x /12 > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Tue Jul 27 19:39:13 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 21:39:13 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <82C1F7EE-9A34-4630-9C9C-B8AF73B6E147@consulintel.es> References: <4ad88a26-f9d2-7ec6-b5f7-1ef518092fa6@geier.ne.tz> <21421F9F-001E-43D3-A3EA-37184F4CE7F8@delong.com> <8430721b-7fcd-e6ec-8b20-b0af673ae9eb@geier.ne.tz> <82C1F7EE-9A34-4630-9C9C-B8AF73B6E147@consulintel.es> Message-ID: <6BF1A7E4-84DD-4789-AC9C-C1C1953BCDDF@consulintel.es> By the way, if some parts of the justification are still "secret", then we could probably live knowing only part of them, redacting the confidential parts. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet ?El 27/7/21 21:36, "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss" escribi?: This will be very simple to resolve (not taking a position in one side or the other because I don't have all the real facts and documents). The original justificacion of the request of the resources I don't think it had so many "secret" and "confidential" details. After several years if any "secrets" were there, probably aren't longer something that can't published now. So why not CI, voluntarely publish that information? I don't have any stance on this game, but if I was CI, this will be the best way to probe my points. Otherwise, I will suggest that AFRINIC asks the court to incorporate that in the proceedings if is not there already, this way, whatever is the result of the case, everybody will know it. At least in the countries I know, the results of the cases are public, as well as the documents that were incorporated during all the process: transparency. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet ?El 27/7/21 21:12, "Frank Habicht" escribi?: Hi Owen, On 27/07/2021 19:09, Owen DeLong wrote: >> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:26 , Frank Habicht wrote: >>> It also serves more end users than the population of all of those >>> countries combined. What is your point? >> >> "serves" ...? > Yes.>> with connectivity? > > In some cases. I'll just mentally insert the word "few" in there, because i haven't seen any yet. >> Or by "buying" IPv4 addresses one place and "selling"/leasing them >> another place. > > By providing a variety of services, some of which include IP address management > independent of connectivity. "variety of services" So my first thought was to press and the key between v and n and then and the key between a and d gosh, at the risk of getting my hand slapped, just to make sure i'm understood : BS - bullshit! "IP address management" putting something into AfriNIC's Whois / IRR ? reverse DNS delegations? [ probably only at extra cost (wild guess) ] Using AfriNIC's auth DNS servers, by just updating domain: objects? >> this is to me closer to speculation than the stated intention of >> >> 1. the resource we take are using in africa. >> 2. we are investing in africa. > > We are definitely investing in Africa. That statement remains true. No doubt. Lawyers in Mauritius. > Regarding the former statement, things do change over time. Agree. Also validity of justifications of IPv4 space. I maintain this: - I have no idea how it was justified. - I have no right to see this justification. - I consider it likely that commitments have been made. - I consider it likely that not all were - and still are - fulfilled. > At the time the statement was made, it was true. I do currently believe that. > Today, the statement ?many of the resources we received from AFRINIC are being used in Africa? would be more accurate. I'm still not too sure about my English knowledge. Especially about "many". I generally encourage people to be as specific as possible. Can I interpret this as "more than three IPv4 addresses we received from AFRINIC are being used in Africa? ? >> which is a quote from >> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html > > Yes? It?s a 7 year old statement which was true at the time. And I believe so was the justification for IPv4 addresses - at the time. Currently, I believe that. That back then the justification was ok. >> and which I understand was good reason to receive IPv4 addresses. >> *was* >> when it was true. > > And today, a good reason to keep the addresses is: > We use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own and our customers networks. "own network" ? I believe that in your home area it would be a very valid question to ask: "which AS is that?" (ie on nanog) "customers networks." "customer" certainly not in terms of connectivity. [ to be specific: for 99% of traffic towards these IPs [1], I hazard the guess that it doesn't pass through CI connectivity.] but "customer" instead only in terms of leasing IP addresses. which you (CI) got the right to do when getting them from AfriNIC in the first place??? I beg to doubt!!! And I think this is what it's all about. CI interpretation vs AfriNIC interpretation. And I think that latter is shared with a majority of the community. > This is a perfectly valid justification for addresses and there is no basis in current policy to deny it and > it remains a true statement to this day. If it was a perfectly valid justification to provide addresses to CI's "customers" - without the "customers" receiving (for all the duration of the lease) any services but the lease of IPv4 addresses (not counting BS-"IP address management"), and with that fact (of leasing) being stated in said justification - and this accepted as justification at the time by AfriNIC, then I rest my case. Frank PS: sorry for the long sentence, it seems my mind turned "legal". [1] "these IPs": 2x /11 and 2x /12 _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Tue Jul 27 19:46:33 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 21:46:33 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <789d7a80-9fae-4ca4-c69a-d31bae7cc3d4@geier.ne.tz> References: <4ad88a26-f9d2-7ec6-b5f7-1ef518092fa6@geier.ne.tz> <21421F9F-001E-43D3-A3EA-37184F4CE7F8@delong.com> <8430721b-7fcd-e6ec-8b20-b0af673ae9eb@geier.ne.tz> <82C1F7EE-9A34-4630-9C9C-B8AF73B6E147@consulintel.es> <789d7a80-9fae-4ca4-c69a-d31bae7cc3d4@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: <42BD9247-1AEE-477C-A90A-ADABBE76F2DD@consulintel.es> Yep ... I just saw your email. I don't know why (asked staff several times), I always get the emails from AFRINIC lists 10-15 minutes late (even my own emails). I'm sure is not my server, as it doesn't happen to me with several hundreds of other lists from IETF, ISOC, and all the other RIRs, to mention just a few! ?El 27/7/21 21:43, "Frank Habicht" escribi?: Hi Jordi, On 27/07/2021 22:30, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote: > This will be very simple to resolve (not taking a position in one side or the other because I don't have all the real facts and documents). > > The original justificacion of the request of the resources I don't think it had so many "secret" and "confidential" details. After several years if any "secrets" were there, probably aren't longer something that can't published now. > > So why not CI, voluntarely publish that information? I don't have any stance on this game, but if I was CI, this will be the best way to probe my points. it seems 4 minutes earlier I suggested same to Owen. > Otherwise, I will suggest that AFRINIC asks the court to incorporate that in the proceedings if is not there already, this way, whatever is the result of the case, everybody will know it. At least in the countries I know, the results of the cases are public, as well as the documents that were incorporated during all the process: transparency. I don't know whether or not (under the Mauritius legal system) the information/documents will become public. I certainly would like to have AfriNIC ask the courts to consider them. I was hoping that was clear from my previous emails. Frank > > Regards, > Jordi > @jordipalet > > > > ?El 27/7/21 21:12, "Frank Habicht" escribi?: > > Hi Owen, > > On 27/07/2021 19:09, Owen DeLong wrote: > >> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:26 , Frank Habicht wrote: > >>> It also serves more end users than the population of all of those > >>> countries combined. What is your point? > >> > >> "serves" ...? > > Yes.>> with connectivity? > > > > In some cases. > > I'll just mentally insert the word "few" in there, because i haven't > seen any yet. > > > >> Or by "buying" IPv4 addresses one place and "selling"/leasing them > >> another place. > > > > By providing a variety of services, some of which include IP address management > > independent of connectivity. > > "variety of services" > So my first thought was to press and the key between v and n > and then and the key between a and d > > gosh, at the risk of getting my hand slapped, just to make sure i'm > understood : BS - bullshit! > > > "IP address management" > putting something into AfriNIC's Whois / IRR ? > reverse DNS delegations? > [ probably only at extra cost (wild guess) ] > Using AfriNIC's auth DNS servers, by just updating domain: objects? > > > >> this is to me closer to speculation than the stated intention of > >> > >> 1. the resource we take are using in africa. > >> 2. we are investing in africa. > > > > We are definitely investing in Africa. That statement remains true. > > No doubt. > Lawyers in Mauritius. > > > > Regarding the former statement, things do change over time. > > Agree. > Also validity of justifications of IPv4 space. > I maintain this: > - I have no idea how it was justified. > - I have no right to see this justification. > - I consider it likely that commitments have been made. > - I consider it likely that not all were - and still are - fulfilled. > > > At the time the statement was made, it was true. > > I do currently believe that. > > > Today, the statement ?many of the resources we received from AFRINIC are being used in Africa? would be more accurate. > > I'm still not too sure about my English knowledge. Especially about > "many". I generally encourage people to be as specific as possible. > Can I interpret this as "more than three IPv4 addresses we received from > AFRINIC are being used in Africa? ? > > > >> which is a quote from > >> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html > > > > Yes? It?s a 7 year old statement which was true at the time. > > And I believe so was the justification for IPv4 addresses - at the time. > Currently, I believe that. That back then the justification was ok. > > > >> and which I understand was good reason to receive IPv4 addresses. > >> *was* > >> when it was true. > > > > And today, a good reason to keep the addresses is: > > We use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own and our customers networks. > > "own network" ? > I believe that in your home area it would be a very valid question to > ask: "which AS is that?" (ie on nanog) > > "customers networks." > "customer" certainly not in terms of connectivity. > [ to be specific: for 99% of traffic towards these IPs [1], I hazard the > guess that it doesn't pass through CI connectivity.] > > but "customer" instead only in terms of leasing IP addresses. > which you (CI) got the right to do when getting them from AfriNIC in the > first place??? I beg to doubt!!! > > And I think this is what it's all about. CI interpretation vs AfriNIC > interpretation. And I think that latter is shared with a majority of the > community. > > > This is a perfectly valid justification for addresses and there is no basis in current policy to deny it and > > it remains a true statement to this day. > > If > it was a perfectly valid justification to provide addresses to CI's > "customers" - without the "customers" receiving (for all the duration of > the lease) any services but the lease of IPv4 addresses (not counting > BS-"IP address management"), and with that fact (of leasing) being > stated in said justification - and this accepted as justification at the > time by AfriNIC, > then > I rest my case. > > > Frank > > PS: sorry for the long sentence, it seems my mind turned "legal". > > [1] > "these IPs": > 2x /11 and 2x /12 > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From barry.macharia at me.com Tue Jul 27 20:27:41 2021 From: barry.macharia at me.com (Barry Macharia) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 23:27:41 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is loud and clear Afrinic resource are meant for African region, is that also loud and clear too. The below Cloud Innovation non-legacy resources were allocated so that they are used as per bylaws to enable African Internet development. 156.224.0.0/11 - 2+ Million IP Addresses 154.192.0.0/11 - 2+ Million IP Addresses 45.192.0.0/12 - 1+ Million IP Addresses 154.80.0.0/12 - 1+ Million IP Addresses The defenders of CIL , do you use the above resources in africa??? If so show us the evidence you do. Trying to bottleneck the organisation will not happen under this communities and majority of resource members watch. regards Barry macharia - Resource Holder in AFRINIC > On 27 Jul 2021, at 21:41, Noah wrote: > > ? > > >> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 7:32 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: >> >>> PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing >>> just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity. >> >> Where is your basis in policy for this? > > Let me attempt to answer your fake question with links that show AFRINIC members from some of the 54 AFRICAN countries with real networks in AFRICA. > > https://bgp.he.net/country/KE > https://bgp.he.net/country/TZ > https://bgp.he.net/country/ZA > https://bgp.he.net/country/NG > https://bgp.he.net/country/MU > > Or wait... I can not find this so-called LIR Cloud Innovation Limited with offices in Seychelles using this BGP tool. > > https://bgp.he.net/country/SC > > You try so hard to pretend with your alternative reality in your quest to defend Heng Lu and his IP ADDRESS SOLUTIONS business run under his subsidiary HongKong company Larus https://www.larus.net/ > > FYI... "AFRINIC has never approved any application for IP space for the purpose of leasing despite having received such requests." > > https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-February/003907.html > > Cheers, > Noah > PS: The ALLOCATION POLICY is linked to the AFRINIC BYLAWS which are both linked to the AFRINIC RSA. > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From madomey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 27 20:28:14 2021 From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 20:28:14 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation) In-Reply-To: References: <37A2A8D5-FBF2-4CCC-9EFD-04D984F9A128@afrinic.net>, Message-ID: Owen, Why are you so desperate? You went with an ex parte request and AFRINIC also went ex parte request to which the Judge declined to grant and instead asked CI, your principals, to prove why to not grant AFRINIC request. Is this not normal process? Can we let the court case play out ? Your obsession to deal with the "vaporware" is known and like you were proven wrong that AFRINIC wasn't one, we are yet to see the result of this new attempt. Please leave AFRICA on its own... Marcus ________________________________ From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 4:01:35 PM To: Eddy Kayihura Cc: Community Discuss Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation) You also left out the part where the judge denied your ex parte request when setting the hearing for August 4. For the avoidance of doubt, I have attached a copy of the Judge?s order here: Owen On Jul 27, 2021, at 07:44 , Eddy Kayihura > wrote: Dear Colleagues, I realised that the previous message did not have the other languages translations in full. Apologies for the double posting. -- Kind Regards Eddy Kayihura M. Chief Executive Officer AFRINIC Ltd. ==== t: +230 403 51 00 | tt: @afrinic | https://www.afrinic.net | youtube.com/afrinicmedia ___________________________ Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) ******************************************************************************************************************* This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. ******************************************************************************************************************* Begin forwarded message: From: Eddy Kayihura > Subject: AFRINIC's Update Date: 27 July 2021 at 18:31:59 GMT+4 To: AfriNIC Discuss > Dear Members, I wish to share with you an update on the freezing of AFRINIC Financial Accounts and the options we are considering. Please watch the video here (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts) Besides, after the recording of the video, there has been a latest development in the matter regarding AFRINIC?s application lodged yesterday seeking a variation of the freezing order. The latest update is that the Learned Judge has fixed the matter for August 4th 2021 for the other parties, including the concerned banks, to communicate their stand in the matter. We shall update you accordingly. Eddy Kayihura Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC ceo at afrinic.net ??????????????. Chers membres, Je souhaite partager avec vous une mise ? jour sur le gel des comptes financiers d'AFRINIC et les options que nous envisageons. Veuillez regarder la vid?o ici (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts) - cliquez sur la page en fran?ais pour texte en fran?ais. La vid?o malheureusement n?est disponible qu?en anglais. En outre, apr?s l'enregistrement de la vid?o, il y a eu un dernier d?veloppement dans l'affaire concernant la demande d'AFRINIC d?pos?e hier pour une modification de l`ordre de gel de nos comptes. La derni?re mise ? jour est que le Learned Judge a fix? l'affaire au 4 ao?t 2021 pour que les autres parties, incluant les banques, communiquent leur position dans l'affaire. Nous vous tiendrons inform?s en cons?quence. Eddy Kayihura Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC ceo at afrinic.net ????????????????. ????? ??????? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ????????? ???? ????? ?????? AFRINIC ??????? ????????? ???? ??????. ???? ?????? ??????? ??? (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts) ????? ??? ??? ? ??? ????? ??????? ? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ???? Afrinic ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???????. ??? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ???????? ?? ???? ????? ?? 4 ????? 2021 ??????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ?????. ????? ??????? ???? ????. Eddy Kayihura Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC ceo at afrinic.net ??. Caros Membros, Desejo partilhar convosco uma actualiza??o sobre o congelamento das Contas Financeiras AFRINIC e as op??es que estamos a considerar. Por favor, veja o v?deo aqui (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts) Al?m disso, ap?s a grava??o do v?deo, houve um ?ltimo desenvolvimento na quest?o relativa ao pedido da Afrinic apresentado ontem solicitando uma varia??o da ordem de congelamento. A ?ltima actualiza??o ? que o Learned Judge fixou o assunto para 4 de Agosto de 2021 para que as outras partes comunicassem a sua posi??o sobre o assunto. Iremos actualiz?-lo em conformidade. ___________________________ Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) ******************************************************************************************************************* This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. ******************************************************************************************************************* _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Tue Jul 27 21:02:28 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 14:02:28 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <5755669E-B1AF-43F1-AD6F-1D4F13C59E26@afrinic.net> Message-ID: <41373.1627419748@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message <5755669E-B1AF-43F1-AD6F-1D4F13C59E26 at afrinic.net>, AFRINIC Communication wrote: >We appreciate your patience. What patience? Regards, rfg From rfg at tristatelogic.com Tue Jul 27 22:05:39 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 15:05:39 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <8430721b-7fcd-e6ec-8b20-b0af673ae9eb@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: <41708.1627423539@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message <8430721b-7fcd-e6ec-8b20-b0af673ae9eb at geier.ne.tz>, Frank Habicht wrote: >Currently, I believe that. That back then the justification was ok. Friends, I like to think that many, perhaps most, perhaps all of you either know me or at least know of me. I am a skeptic. Not just about some things, but about everything. And I also like to think that my skepticism has been of some value, not just to myself but also to this community. As was already noted by Frank, none of us have any legal right to see any of Cloud Innovation's internal documents, regardless of whether they are from seven days ago or seven years ago, and Cloud Innovation is most certainly under no legal obligation, nor even any moral or ethical obligation to provide any such internal documents to any of us. That having been said, my own curiosity knows no bounds, and I personally would be interested to see how a request for some 6,291,456 IPv4 addresses would have been justified, back in 2013 & 2014. At the very least, I am sure that would be educational. And just so that nobody thinks that I am taking sides here, let me also say that there are, as of now, on the order of several dozen answers to questions and pieces of information that I would also like to obtain from AFRINIC, some of which I have been requesting from AFRINIC for literally years already, but that I am also not privy to at the present time. (To put in bluntly, AFRINIC is and has been stonewalling me about a LOT of things over a long period of time.) In short, from where I am sitting, *everybody* is hiding something, and I don't believe that any of this information hiding is being done for my benefit -or- for the benefit of the AFRINIC community. The folks doing the hiding are looking after their own interests. Regards, rfg From mirriamlauren at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 22:15:56 2021 From: mirriamlauren at yahoo.com (Mirriam) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 22:15:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation) In-Reply-To: References: <37A2A8D5-FBF2-4CCC-9EFD-04D984F9A128@afrinic.net> Message-ID: <492788832.265667.1627424156770@mail.yahoo.com> Owen,? Stop dragging the CEO in your nonsense and await the court hearing. ?Mirriam. ? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 7:12 PM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Tue Jul 27 22:36:06 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 15:36:06 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <41826.1627425366@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , Barry Macharia wrote: >This is loud and clear > >Afrinic resource are meant for African region, is that also loud and clear too. No, actually, it isn't. And that's the problem. I am not here to defend Lu Heng or Cloud Innovantion, but as I understand it, Lu Heng's claim is a simple one: He successfully met all of the requirements, as necessary, in order to request and to receive, from AFRINIC, all of the 6,291,456 IPv4 addresses that AFRINIC did in fact assign to him, as of the dates when he received these allocations, which were four different dates in 2013 and 2014. He further contends that there is no legal basis, either within the RSA that he signed, or within the AFRINIC Bylaws, or within any community-apporved policies which would allow AFRINIC to now withdraw those allocations in 2021. As part of these over-arching contentions, Lu Heng has also actually or effectively asserted that there are little or no binding requirements upon AFRINIC resource members that they must operate or deploy their assigned number resources in a manner which preferences any particular geographical region. I personally do not have sufficent information to judge whether he is right or wrong about any of these contentions and so I reserve judgement. He may perhaps be right, in which case it is NOT true to say that "Afrinic resource are meant for {the} African region". And if that is true, it may defy and fly in the face of many people's beliefs and expectations, including mine, but beliefs and expectations are not the law. The law is the law, contracts are in writing, and the courts are now tasked with figuring out who is in the right and who is in the wrong. The speculations and fervent beliefs of the rest of us, as expressed on this mailing list, will, in the end, be rather entirely irrelevant. Regards, rfg From noah at neo.co.tz Tue Jul 27 22:56:36 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 01:56:36 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <41826.1627425366@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <41826.1627425366@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:40 AM Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > In message , > Barry Macharia wrote: > > >This is loud and clear > > > >Afrinic resource are meant for African region, is that also loud and > clear too. > > No, actually, it isn't. And that's the problem. > > I am not here to defend Lu Heng or Cloud Innovantion, but as I understand > it, Lu Heng's claim is a simple one: He successfully met all of the > requirements, as necessary, in order to request and to receive, from > AFRINIC, all of the 6,291,456 IPv4 addresses that AFRINIC did in fact > assign to him, as of the dates when he received these allocations, which > were four different dates in 2013 and 2014. And here is what Lu Heng stated in 2014 about the said allocations. https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html > He further contends that > there is no legal basis, either within the RSA that he signed, or > within the AFRINIC Bylaws, or within any community-apporved policies > which would allow AFRINIC to now withdraw those allocations in 2021. > The objectives of AFRINIC below https://www.afrinic.net/bylaws#b20-3 and the reason AFRINIC become the RIR for AFRICA. 3.4) The Company shall have, both within and outside the Republic of Mauritius, full capacity to carry and/or undertake any business or activity, including but not limited to the following objects: 1. *to provide the service of allocating and registering Internet resources for the purposes of enabling communications via open system network protocols and to assist in the development and growth of the Internet in the African region;* 2. *to promote the representation of AFRINIC membership and the Internet community of the African region by ensuring open and transparent communication and consensus-driven decision-making processes;* 3. *to promote responsible management of Internet resources throughout the African region, as well as the responsible development and operation of Internet infrastructures; * > > As part of these over-arching contentions, Lu Heng has also actually or > effectively asserted that there are little or no binding requirements upon > AFRINIC resource members that they must operate or deploy their assigned > number resources in a manner which preferences any particular geographical > region. > AFRINIC below https://www.afrinic.net/bylaws#b20-3 3.4) The Company shall have, both within and outside the Republic of Mauritius, full capacity to carry and/or undertake any business or activity, including but not limited to the following objects: 1. *to provide the service of allocating and registering Internet resources for the purposes of enabling communications via open system network protocols and to assist in the development and growth of the Internet in the African region;* 2. *to promote the representation of AFRINIC membership and the Internet community of the African region by ensuring open and transparent communication and consensus-driven decision-making processes;* 3. *to promote responsible management of Internet resources throughout the African region, as well as the responsible development and operation of Internet infrastructures; * > > I personally do not have sufficent information to judge whether he is > right or wrong about any of these contentions and so I reserve judgement. > The courts shall decide. > He may perhaps be right, in which case it is NOT true to say that > "Afrinic resource are meant for {the} African region". And if that is > true, it may defy and fly in the face of many people's beliefs and > expectations, including mine, but beliefs and expectations are not > the law. The expectations https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/new-rirs-criteria-2012-02-25-en IANA did not allocate to AFRINIC so that AFRINIC allocates to Heng Lu who would then go about leasing the resources in other regions. Why didn't Lu Heng go to APNIC, RIPE or ARIN. ? If his intention was to sell IPv4 addresses in those regions for profit. The law is the law, contracts are in writing, and the courts > are now tasked with figuring out who is in the right and who is in the > wrong. The RSA https://afrinic.net/ast/pdf/services/afrinic-rsa-en-201801.pdf 4. Conditions of service (a) Where a member, receiving service under an existing agreement applies for a change or a variation of the type of such service which AFRINIC has been supplying to it, evaluation of such a ?change request? will be effected in terms of the provisions of clause (2) of the present agreement. (b) Cooperation: *(i) An applicant receiving service under an agreement is at all times bound to provide to AFRINIC suchinformation, assistance and cooperation as may be reasonably required by the latter in the provisionof the service.* *(ii) Such request for information may also be made where AFRINIC is investigating (reviewing) theapplicant?s utilisation of the number resources already assigned to it.* *(iii) Failure by the applicant, to comply with a request made at above may:(1) entail revocation or withholding of the service supplied by AFRINIC;(2) be taken into account by AFRINIC in its evaluation for further and future assignment orallocation of number resources;(3) lead to the closure of an LIR and termination of the agreement by AFRINIC.* Cheers, Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robertford2 at icloud.com Tue Jul 27 23:04:17 2021 From: robertford2 at icloud.com (robert ford) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 01:04:17 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation) In-Reply-To: <492788832.265667.1627424156770@mail.yahoo.com> References: <492788832.265667.1627424156770@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I couldn?t agree more. Does he get it though? I bet he does. Ford Sent from my iPhone > On 28 Jul 2021, at 00:19, Mirriam via Community-Discuss wrote: > > ?Owen, > > Stop dragging the CEO in your nonsense and await the court hearing. > > Mirriam. > > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 7:12 PM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amelnaud at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 23:04:50 2021 From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 23:04:50 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <41826.1627425366@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <41826.1627425366@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: Le mar. 27 juil. 2021 ? 22:38, Ronald F. Guilmette a ?crit : > In message , > Barry Macharia wrote: > > >This is loud and clear > > > >Afrinic resource are meant for African region, is that also loud and > clear too. > > No, actually, it isn't. And that's the problem. > > I am not here to defend Lu Heng or Cloud Innovantion, but as I understand > it, Lu Heng's claim is a simple one: He successfully met all of the > requirements, as necessary, in order to request and to receive, from > AFRINIC, all of the 6,291,456 IPv4 addresses that AFRINIC did in fact > assign to him, as of the dates when he received these allocations, which > were four different dates in 2013 and 2014. He further contends that > there is no legal basis, either within the RSA that he signed, or > Cette assertion n'est pas correct, les textes d'Afrinic sont assez clair et ?taient bas?s sur la bonne foi des membres ? respecter les principes de base, de la bonne pratique et non sur certains capitalistes v?reux qui ont des agendas cach?s. C'est pourquoi certaines conditions qui normalement ?taient d'office compris par les parties, n'ont pas ? ?tre transcrit dans le RSA au risque en le faisant d'avoir un document aussi gros qu'une bible. Ce membre a profiter de certaines familles (chemin pas tr?s correct) pour obtenir les ressources qu'il a avec l'aide de certains membres corrompu du staff et du Board qui se connaissent tr?s bien. Cela ne change pas que la proc?dure d'obtention n'a pas ?t? propre, clean. within the AFRINIC Bylaws, or within any community-apporved policies > which would allow AFRINIC to now withdraw those allocations in 2021. > > As part of these over-arching contentions, Lu Heng has also actually or > effectively asserted that there are little or no binding requirements upon > AFRINIC resource members that they must operate or deploy their assigned > number resources in a manner which preferences any particular geographical > region. > Ceci aussi n'est pas correct, c'est faire preuve de mauvaise foi que d'interpr?ter les textes d'Afrinic dans ce sens. Il faut tenir compte de l'historique de l'attribution des ressources. Elles sont belles et bien r?gionales et non globales. Ceci est incontestable m?me par toi Ronald. Donc ce n'est parce qu'il a mal interpr?t? les textes d'Afrinic qu'il a raison. > > I personally do not have sufficent information to judge whether he is > right or wrong about any of these contentions and so I reserve judgement. > Non personne ne fait de jugement mais chacun pr?sente son opinion personnelle. On peut se tromper mais les arguments historiques sont ind?l?biles, on en peut pas ne pas en tenir compte. He may perhaps be right, in which case it is NOT true to say that > "Afrinic resource are meant for {the} African region". And if that is > true, it may defy and fly in the face of many people's beliefs and > expectations, including mine, but beliefs and expectations are not > the law. C'est surprenant que l'aspect historique t'?chappe ? se point sauf si ta m?moire est brusquement devenue s?lective. Les registres sont tous appel?s Registre R?gionaux, par cons?quence s?mantique, toutes leurs activit?s sont r?gionales et les ressources dont elles ont la charge sont r?serv?es ? leur r?gion, pour que ces ressources se retrouvent dans une autre r?gion, il faut une politique de transfert inter-region duement ratifi?e. Ce qui n'est pas le cas d'Afrinic. Par cons?quent ces ressources doivent ?tre utilis?es uniquement dans sa r?gion sauf conditions exceptionnelles accord?es par d'Afrinic. Nous avons vu comment des gens ont voulu faire passer une telle politique par des voies controvers?es, mais qui a ?chou? heureusement. The law is the law, contracts are in writing, and the courts > are now tasked with figuring out who is in the right and who is in the > wrong. The speculations and fervent beliefs of the rest of us, as > expressed on this mailing list, will, in the end, be rather entirely > irrelevant. > Merci Ronald de ne pas glisser dans tes informations souvent plausibles, des informations erron?es ou non fond?es. > > > > > Regards, > rfg > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Tue Jul 27 23:13:48 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 02:13:48 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> <852257D7-1C77-48A8-B573-DBBD79EAE6B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 17:32 Lili Au, wrote: > Thank you Noah, > > Hi everyone, > > I'm afraid that I can not share the LOA since it will give them some > clues. But I can say -- > You can share through the available Whistle blowing mechanism provided by AFRINIC via the link below. https://www.afrinic.net/whistleblowing?lang=en It's worth noting that some LOAs signed by Mr.Paul Lam of LARUS have been shared by Heng Lu himself in the past. So this LOA's from Larus we have seen a couple. Cheers, Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skiden at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 23:40:21 2021 From: skiden at gmail.com (Sarah T. Kiden) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 00:40:21 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation) In-Reply-To: References: <492788832.265667.1627424156770@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I agree. Whatever conclusions we come to on the list will not be relevant in the court room on 4 Aug. So, I suggest that we exercise some patience as we wait for an update. Thanks, Sarah On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 at 00:04, robert ford via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > I couldn?t agree more. > > Does he get it though? I bet he does. > > Ford > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 28 Jul 2021, at 00:19, Mirriam via Community-Discuss < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > > ?Owen, > > > Stop dragging the CEO in your nonsense and await the court hearing. > > Mirriam. > > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 7:12 PM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Wed Jul 28 01:03:11 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:03:11 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <42278.1627434191@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Arnaud AMELINA wrote: >C'est surprenant que l'aspect historique t'?chappe ? se point sauf si ta >m?moire est brusquement devenue s?lective. Les registres sont tous appel?s >Registre R?gionaux, par cons?quence s?mantique, toutes leurs activit?s sont >r?gionales et les ressources dont elles ont la charge sont r?serv?es ? leur >r?gion, pour que ces ressources se retrouvent dans une autre r?gion, il faut >une politique de transfert inter-region duement ratifi?e. Ce qui n'est pas le >cas d'Afrinic. Par cons?quent ces ressources doivent ?tre utilis?es uniquement >dans sa r?gion sauf conditions exceptionnelles accord?es par d'Afrinic.? I am forced to agree that intuitively, the Regional Internet Registries were indeed created with the idea in mind that each one would serve to help develop and administer Internet number resources within their respective regions. But our shared intutive notions are not the same as what is written down, and when things end up in court, as a general rule only those things that are written down actually matter. I have some experience with courts and with litigation, so I kind of know how this works. Believe me, there are many clever lawyers on this planet who would argue, perhaps even successfully, that the Ten Commandments of Moses do not apply to their specific client because there was never a written rule requiring all the people to be able to read Hebrew. Regards, rfg From owen at delong.com Wed Jul 28 02:17:06 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 19:17:06 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <31299.1627244609@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <745F630B-A186-481C-9704-BCA2A0869089@delong.com> <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: > On Jul 27, 2021, at 12:00 , Arnaud AMELINA wrote: > > @Noah +10000.... > > Le mar. 27 juil. 2021 ? 18:41, Noah > a ?crit : > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 7:32 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: > >> PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing >> just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity. > > Where is your basis in policy for this? > > Let me attempt to answer your fake question with links that show AFRINIC members from some of the 54 AFRICAN countries with real networks in AFRICA. > > https://bgp.he.net/country/KE > https://bgp.he.net/country/TZ > https://bgp.he.net/country/ZA > https://bgp.he.net/country/NG > https://bgp.he.net/country/MU You?re not answering the question I asked? What is your basis in policy for claiming that a VM is OK, but leasing addresses without providing connectivity services is not? It?s simply not prohibited anywhere in policy. > Or wait... I can not find this so-called LIR Cloud Innovation Limited with offices in Seychelles using this BGP tool. > > https://bgp.he.net/country/SC And? > > You try so hard to pretend with your alternative reality in your quest to defend Heng Lu and his IP ADDRESS SOLUTIONS business run under his subsidiary HongKong company Larus https://www.larus.net/ > > FYI... "AFRINIC has never approved any application for IP space for the purpose of leasing despite having received such requests." OK, so AFRINIC has repeatedly violated their own policies. Doesn?t change the question and doesn?t change the reality. > https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-February/003907.html Also, nobody in their right mind would submit an application with that kind of specificity. The following justification is perfectly adequate and conforms to policy: We will use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own and on our customers? networks. > > Cheers, > Noah > PS: The ALLOCATION POLICY is linked to the AFRINIC BYLAWS which are both linked to the AFRINIC RSA. That?s correct. Now show me where, in any of those documents, connectivity is required to be provided in conjunction with address resource services. If you can?t do that, then you?ve made my case. FWIW, I?m not saying that I like this situation, but I am saying that?s what the policies actually say. If the AFRINIC community truly sought to prohibit out of region use or leasing, then they could easily propose and get consensus for policies that would do so. There was an attempt at prohibiting out of region utilization several years ago. It met with substantial resistance for a variety of reasons from virtually every segment of the community. It was eventually withdrawn by the authors without gaining consensus. Nobody has ever even proposed a possible policy to prohibit providing address services without providing connectivity services. Possibly because most people recognize that such a policy wouldn?t have much of a useful effect. There?s a very simple fig leaf that someone could use in case such a policy were passed: Announce the aggregates (least specific prefixes) from a central site in the region. Reannounce the more specifics upon customer request, but heavily prepended. Have some minimal connection to each customer so that packets delivered to the aggregate can be delivered to the customer if necessary. Customers maintain their other connections and have LOAs to multi home and announce their less specific prefixes.. Voila, now it?s not technically leasing without connectivity, but it might as well be. The less specifics are very unlikely to pull in any significant traffic as they?ll be overridden by the more specifics advertised elsewhere (and/or the longer AS Path for the more specifics). Obviously, the customers will hot potato their outbound traffic to their closest highest bandwidth egress points rather than through the narrow pipe back to the ?address service provider?. Currently policy doesn?t require this pretense. If it does, I suspect it would get implemented as needed to comply. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Wed Jul 28 02:35:42 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 19:35:42 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6D448310-8E28-4411-AAF7-51CEB17931A7@delong.com> > On Jul 27, 2021, at 13:27 , Barry Macharia wrote: > > This is loud and clear > > Afrinic resource are meant for African region, is that also loud and clear too. Please provide a reference for this statement in any of the governing documents that covers more than just the addresses issued after soft landing exhaustion phase 1 began. > > The below Cloud Innovation non-legacy resources were allocated so that they are used as per bylaws to enable African Internet development. > > 156.224.0.0/11 - 2+ Million IP Addresses > 154.192.0.0/11 - 2+ Million IP Addresses > 45.192.0.0/12 - 1+ Million IP Addresses > 154.80.0.0/12 - 1+ Million IP Addresses If you are claiming that the bylaws state that all addresses must be used to enable African Internet Development, you will need to back that up with a reference to the specific section(s) of the bylaws where this is stated. Otherwise, I will presume that your statement applies to the general requirement in the bylaws that the member must provide services within the region. > The defenders of CIL , do you use the above resources in africa??? Yes, some of those addresses are deployed and providing services in Africa. > If so show us the evidence you do. Among others: 156.227.33.0/24 thru 156.227.65.0/24 (Cloud Innovation Infrastructure ZA) 156.227.66.0/24 thru 156.227.127.0/24 (China Telecom Sout Africa ZA) This just a quick sample from scrolling through the one whois query against one prefix. I?m not going to spend hours tracking down a bunch fo data that you can easily get from WHOIS yourself. I?ve proven that we have operations in Africa and that we have customers using our address space in Africa with the above two groups of prefixes. Now, can you provide proof of any of your claims above? > Trying to bottleneck the organisation will not happen under this communities and majority of resource members watch. Bottleneck? Not sure of your meaning here. We are merely seeking to hold AFRINIC to its own rules as written and to continue our operations within those rules as they have been for several years. Owen From owen at delong.com Wed Jul 28 02:41:24 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 19:41:24 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation) In-Reply-To: References: <37A2A8D5-FBF2-4CCC-9EFD-04D984F9A128@afrinic.net> Message-ID: <26CC1F87-2DF6-421C-8C41-8C633A7D8DB2@delong.com> > On Jul 27, 2021, at 13:28 , Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote: > > Owen, > > Why are you so desperate? > Desparate? > You went with an ex parte request and AFRINIC also went ex parte request to which the Judge declined to grant and instead asked CI, your principals, to prove why to not grant AFRINIC request. > I think you have it wrong here. First, I didn?t go with any request. Cloud Innovation and its lawyers went before the court with an ex parte request. The judge did NOT decline to grant our request? They declined to grant AFRINIC?s request and asked AFRINIC to come and show why their request should be granted. Indeed, it is this detail where Eddy left out the fact that the judge declined AFRINIC?s request that I was calling attention to in the post you are responding to. Despite this fact, you still managed to get it wrong, so obviously, there is confusion in the community based on Eddy?s failure to disclose the entire truth of the matter to the community. The proof is plain in your statements above. > Is this not normal process? > It is fairly normal, yes. > Can we let the court case play out ? > Sure? It will. I?m not doing anything to interfere with it. I merely provided some details which the AFRINIC CEO chose not to share with the community and a copy of the actual court order to back up those details. > Your obsession to deal with the "vaporware" is known and like you were proven wrong that AFRINIC wasn't one, we are yet to see the result of this new attempt. You continue to focus on this. At the time I made the statement, AFRINIC was still vaporware. Despite your claims, I am glad to see that AFRINIC came to fruition and my true desire here is to see it become a reputable RIR operating within the mandate of its governing documents in an open and transparent manner with an accountable board and staff where the community and members can once again trust in those governing bodies. > Please leave AFRICA on its own... And once again, you try to encourage me to leave the discussions. I would think by now that you would have learned this is not going to happen. Owen > > > > Marcus > From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 4:01:35 PM > To: Eddy Kayihura > Cc: Community Discuss > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation) > > You also left out the part where the judge denied your ex parte request when setting the hearing for August 4. > > For the avoidance of doubt, I have attached a copy of the Judge?s order here: > > > > Owen > > >> On Jul 27, 2021, at 07:44 , Eddy Kayihura > wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> I realised that the previous message did not have the other languages translations in full. >> >> Apologies for the double posting. >> -- >> >> Kind Regards >> >> Eddy Kayihura M. >> Chief Executive Officer >> AFRINIC Ltd. >> ==== >> t: +230 403 51 00 | tt: @afrinic | https://www.afrinic.net | youtube.com/afrinicmedia >> ___________________________ >> >> Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? >> Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? >> Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) >> >> >> ******************************************************************************************************************* >> This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. >> >> ******************************************************************************************************************* >> >> >> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> From: Eddy Kayihura > >>> Subject: AFRINIC's Update >>> Date: 27 July 2021 at 18:31:59 GMT+4 >>> To: AfriNIC Discuss > >>> >>> Dear Members, >>> >>> I wish to share with you an update on the freezing of AFRINIC Financial Accounts and the options we are considering. >>> >>> Please watch the video here (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts ) >>> >>> Besides, after the recording of the video, there has been a latest development in the matter regarding AFRINIC?s application lodged yesterday seeking a variation of the freezing order. >>> >>> The latest update is that the Learned Judge has fixed the matter for August 4th 2021 for the other parties, including the concerned banks, to communicate their stand in the matter. >>> >>> We shall update you accordingly. >>> >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> >>> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC >>> >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> >>> >>> ??????????????. >>> >>> Chers membres, >>> >>> Je souhaite partager avec vous une mise ? jour sur le gel des comptes financiers d'AFRINIC et les options que nous envisageons. >>> >>> Veuillez regarder la vid?o ici (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts ) - cliquez sur la page en fran?ais pour texte en fran?ais. La vid?o malheureusement n?est disponible qu?en anglais. >>> >>> En outre, apr?s l'enregistrement de la vid?o, il y a eu un dernier d?veloppement dans l'affaire concernant la demande d'AFRINIC d?pos?e hier pour une modification de l`ordre de gel de nos comptes. >>> >>> La derni?re mise ? jour est que le Learned Judge a fix? l'affaire au 4 ao?t 2021 pour que les autres parties, incluant les banques, communiquent leur position dans l'affaire. >>> >>> Nous vous tiendrons inform?s en cons?quence. >>> >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> >>> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC >>> >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> >>> >>> >>> ????????????????. >>> ????? ??????? >>> >>> ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ????????? ???? ????? ?????? AFRINIC ??????? ????????? ???? ??????. >>> >>> ???? ?????? ??????? ??? (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts ) >>> >>> ????? ??? ??? ? ??? ????? ??????? ? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ???? Afrinic ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???????. >>> >>> ??? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ???????? ?? ???? ????? ?? 4 ????? 2021 ??????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ?????. >>> >>> ????? ??????? ???? ????. >>> >>> Eddy Kayihura >>> >>> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC >>> >>> ceo at afrinic.net >>> >>> ??. >>> >>> >>> Caros Membros, >>> >>> Desejo partilhar convosco uma actualiza??o sobre o congelamento das Contas Financeiras AFRINIC e as op??es que estamos a considerar. >>> >>> Por favor, veja o v?deo aqui (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts ) >>> >>> Al?m disso, ap?s a grava??o do v?deo, houve um ?ltimo desenvolvimento na quest?o relativa ao pedido da Afrinic apresentado ontem solicitando uma varia??o da ordem de congelamento. >>> >>> A ?ltima actualiza??o ? que o Learned Judge fixou o assunto para 4 de Agosto de 2021 para que as outras partes comunicassem a sua posi??o sobre o assunto. >>> >>> Iremos actualiz?-lo em conformidade. >>> >>> >>> ___________________________ >>> >>> Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? >>> Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? >>> Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) >>> >>> >>> ******************************************************************************************************************* >>> This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. >>> >>> ******************************************************************************************************************* >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Wed Jul 28 02:42:09 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 19:42:09 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation) In-Reply-To: <492788832.265667.1627424156770@mail.yahoo.com> References: <37A2A8D5-FBF2-4CCC-9EFD-04D984F9A128@afrinic.net> <492788832.265667.1627424156770@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1FB2EEED-F6D5-494B-A49D-7288BC8208F2@delong.com> I provided a factual statement about an omission in a message from the CEO. How, exactly, is that dragging the CEO in my nonsense? Owen > On Jul 27, 2021, at 15:15 , Mirriam wrote: > > Owen, > > Stop dragging the CEO in your nonsense and await the court hearing. > > Mirriam. > > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 7:12 PM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Wed Jul 28 02:57:05 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 19:57:05 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <31299.1627244609@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <745F630B-A186-481C-9704-BCA2A0869089@delong.com> <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: <4E7DEF4F-9C6B-4319-A38C-0A01FB979D41@delong.com> > On Jul 27, 2021, at 12:26 , Frank Habicht wrote: > > > > On 27/07/2021 19:27, Owen DeLong wrote: >>> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:31 , Frank Habicht >> > wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect >>> our customers in Africa" ? >> >> I have no idea what they did or did not commit to with regards to Africa. >> How is that relevant to the question at hand regarding the amount of address >> space in question? > > I really hope we can agree that AfriNIC did never outright "sell" the IP > address space. But gave the right to use subject to justification(s). Actually, neither. > If not, we seem to live in different universes. Perhaps, but perhaps not. AFRINIC registered blocks of numbers to Cloud Innovation for the sake of guaranteeing uniqueness amongst cooperating entities. AFRINIC has no authority or ability to issue any sort of ?right to use? as there is no legal basis for forcing a provider to make their router configuration choices based on the contents of any particular RIR database. Now it would be extremely disruptive to have multiple alternate registries and generally because of this high cost and low return, the vast majority of providers follow along with the RIR system and the overall effect amounts to a right to use, but it?s not an actula legal right to use. In fact, having an address block issued by an RIR doesn?t guarantee you that any service provider will accept your prefixes, so really, at best, it?s an ability to use more than a ?right? to use. If we can agree on that, then perhaps we are not in different universes. Yes, the registration is subject to certain justifications and conditions as specified in the governing documents (RSA, bylaws, CPM). Where we disagree (as near as I can tell) is mostly on what the governing documents actually say. > >>> Did CI? >> >> 7 years ago, CI made such a statement. CI subsequently adapted to the >> changing business >> environment and expanded its operations to include both Africa and other >> continents. CI >> submitted appropriate updates to WHOIS as these changes occurred. > > I am not sure whether AfriNIC expanded it's acceptance for the use of IP > resources by CI to the same extent. AFRINIC is required by its governing documents to accept any expansion or change of use that does not violate the policies spelled out in the CPM and/or any other restrictions in the bylaws or RSA. For AFRINIC to arbitrarily withhold such acceptance without a basis in community and/or. member supported policy/bylaws would set an extremely dangerous precedent allowing the staff to essentially reward their friends and punish those they don?t like on an entirely arbitrary basis.It is my understanding that a fundamental tenet of the RIR system is that RIRs are supposed to act in a fair and impartial manner towards all resource holders. I do not see how that can be possible if staff is allowed the latitude to make arbitrary decisions rejecting things which are not prohibited by policy. >>> PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing >>> just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity. >> >> Where is your basis in policy for this? > > In the justification from CI for the IP address space. which I haven't > seen. Want to share? I don?t have permission to share and TBH, I haven?t seen it, either. However, if I had written it, it would read something like: We will use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own infrastructure and on our customers networks. So, let?s assume that?s what it says and see how you can provide a basis (chapter and verse, please) for either rejecting that justification or for claiming that said justification does not encompass leasing. Owen From owen at delong.com Wed Jul 28 03:00:00 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 20:00:00 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <82C1F7EE-9A34-4630-9C9C-B8AF73B6E147@consulintel.es> References: <4ad88a26-f9d2-7ec6-b5f7-1ef518092fa6@geier.ne.tz> <21421F9F-001E-43D3-A3EA-37184F4CE7F8@delong.com> <8430721b-7fcd-e6ec-8b20-b0af673ae9eb@geier.ne.tz> <82C1F7EE-9A34-4630-9C9C-B8AF73B6E147@consulintel.es> Message-ID: > On Jul 27, 2021, at 12:30 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote: > > This will be very simple to resolve (not taking a position in one side or the other because I don't have all the real facts and documents). > > The original justificacion of the request of the resources I don't think it had so many "secret" and "confidential" details. After several years if any "secrets" were there, probably aren't longer something that can't published now. We have already agreed that the original justification is no longer relevant and that, like any ISP in business for more than 8 years, things have changed and we have adapted. > So why not CI, voluntarely publish that information? I don't have any stance on this game, but if I was CI, this will be the best way to probe my points. Because it is no longer relevant. > Otherwise, I will suggest that AFRINIC asks the court to incorporate that in the proceedings if is not there already, this way, whatever is the result of the case, everybody will know it. At least in the countries I know, the results of the cases are public, as well as the documents that were incorporated during all the process: transparency. In reality, even if a curative submission is required (if the last filed justification to which I do not have access, TBH), I would suggest they simply modify their justification to the following: We will use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own infrastructure and on our customers? networks. This is a justification which meets the letter of the law of the policy and which does not preclude leasing. Owen From owen at delong.com Wed Jul 28 03:24:31 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 20:24:31 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <41826.1627425366@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: > The objectives of AFRINIC below https://www.afrinic.net/bylaws#b20-3 and the reason AFRINIC become the RIR for AFRICA. > > 3.4) The Company shall have, both within and outside the Republic of Mauritius, full capacity to carry and/or undertake any business or activity, including but not limited to the following objects: > to provide the service of allocating and registering Internet resources for the purposes of enabling communications via open system network protocols and to assist in the development and growth of the Internet in the African region; > to promote the representation of AFRINIC membership and the Internet community of the African region by ensuring open and transparent communication and consensus-driven decision-making processes; > to promote responsible management of Internet resources throughout the African region, as well as the responsible development and operation of Internet infrastructures; Corporate objectives are not policy binding upon the company?s customers. They are a broad-strokes list of corporate goals. Nonetheless, even if they were, Cloud innovation meets a sufficient fraction of 3.4(i) to qualify. The Larus Foundation Fellowship Program is a significant effort towards 3.4(ii). You may not agree, but IMHO, Cloud Innovation does engage in 3.4(iii) through both its engagement with the community, it?s strict adherence to AFRINIC policies as written, and its internal policies requiring its address services customers to do the same. > As part of these over-arching contentions, Lu Heng has also actually or > effectively asserted that there are little or no binding requirements upon > AFRINIC resource members that they must operate or deploy their assigned > number resources in a manner which preferences any particular geographical > region. > > AFRINIC below https://www.afrinic.net/bylaws#b20-3 > > 3.4) The Company shall have, both within and outside the Republic of Mauritius, full capacity to carry and/or undertake any business or activity, including but not limited to the following objects: > to provide the service of allocating and registering Internet resources for the purposes of enabling communications via open system network protocols and to assist in the development and growth of the Internet in the African region; > to promote the representation of AFRINIC membership and the Internet community of the African region by ensuring open and transparent communication and consensus-driven decision-making processes; > to promote responsible management of Internet resources throughout the African region, as well as the responsible development and operation of Internet infrastructures; Once again, these criteria are a statement of corporate goals, not binding policy on resource members. Nonetheless, one does not need to use 100% or even most of ones resources within the region to fulfill all of those criteria and, IMHO, Cloud Innovation actually does meet each and every one of those criteria either directly and/or indirectly through actions of related parties. > I personally do not have sufficent information to judge whether he is > right or wrong about any of these contentions and so I reserve judgement. > > The courts shall decide. Indeed. So far, they seem to have decided that Larus has a good chance of succeeding. > He may perhaps be right, in which case it is NOT true to say that > "Afrinic resource are meant for {the} African region". And if that is > true, it may defy and fly in the face of many people's beliefs and > expectations, including mine, but beliefs and expectations are not > the law. > > The expectations https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/new-rirs-criteria-2012-02-25-en These are not expectations. They are the governing policies by which ICANN/PTI (acting as the IANA under the IANA functions contract) are able to accredit new RIRs. They are a set of requirements that ICANN must certify the RIR as meeting at the time of accreditation. Nothing more. > IANA did not allocate to AFRINIC so that AFRINIC allocates to Heng Lu who would then go about leasing the resources in other regions. It really isn?t relevant what IANA thinks of any RIRs use or distribution of their address space. IANA?s role is limited to accreditation of new RIRs and the issuance of additional blocks from its free pool to RIRs as their free pools approach empty. For IPv4 this process is basically over, though there are still occasional quarterly trickles of returned space and other minimal chunks. > Why didn't Lu Heng go to APNIC, RIPE or ARIN. ? If his intention was to sell IPv4 addresses in those regions for profit. To the best of my knowledge, other than a divestiture of addresses in the RIPE region 8+ years ago, neither Lu, nor Cloud Innovation has engaged in any sale of IPv4 addresses for profit. Like nearly all LIRs, Cloud Innovation has engaged in the leasing of addresses for profit. The main difference being that Cloud Innovation issues leases with or without connectivity services attached to the lease. > The law is the law, contracts are in writing, and the courts > are now tasked with figuring out who is in the right and who is in the > wrong. > > The RSA https://afrinic.net/ast/pdf/services/afrinic-rsa-en-201801.pdf > > 4. Conditions of service > (a) Where a member, receiving service under an existing agreement applies for a change or a variation of the > type of such service which AFRINIC has been supplying to it, evaluation of such a ?change request? will be effected in > terms of the provisions of clause (2) of the present agreement. > (b) Cooperation: > (i) An applicant receiving service under an agreement is at all times bound to provide to AFRINIC such > information, assistance and cooperation as may be reasonably required by the latter in the provision > of the service. Which Cloud Innovation has done. > (ii) Such request for information may also be made where AFRINIC is investigating (reviewing) the > applicant?s utilisation of the number resources already assigned to it. Which we answered. When they repeated essentially the same request without regard to our answers and then chose to threaten us rather than give due consideration to our answers, we sought to protect ourselves through the court system as any business facing such a threat likely would. > (iii) Failure by the applicant, to comply with a request made at above may: > (1) entail revocation or withholding of the service supplied by AFRINIC; > (2) be taken into account by AFRINIC in its evaluation for further and future assignment or > allocation of number resources; > (3) lead to the closure of an LIR and termination of the agreement by AFRINIC. We did not fail to comply with the request. We replied to the first request with a complete answer. When the request was subsequently repeated, we referred to our earlier answer. When a threat was issued instead of considering our answer, it was clear that AFRINIC was not willing to consider its own policy documents binding and instead wanted to make up their own rules. At that point, it was necessary to seek injunctive relief, which we did obtain. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Wed Jul 28 03:35:17 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 20:35:17 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <41826.1627425366@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <47DE7EBC-22E3-4039-B8E5-957E042CCF78@delong.com> > On Jul 27, 2021, at 16:04 , Arnaud AMELINA wrote: > > > > Le mar. 27 juil. 2021 ? 22:38, Ronald F. Guilmette > a ?crit : > In message >, > Barry Macharia > wrote: > > >This is loud and clear > > > >Afrinic resource are meant for African region, is that also loud and clear too. > > No, actually, it isn't. And that's the problem. > > I am not here to defend Lu Heng or Cloud Innovantion, but as I understand > it, Lu Heng's claim is a simple one: He successfully met all of the > requirements, as necessary, in order to request and to receive, from > AFRINIC, all of the 6,291,456 IPv4 addresses that AFRINIC did in fact > assign to him, as of the dates when he received these allocations, which > were four different dates in 2013 and 2014. He further contends that > there is no legal basis, either within the RSA that he signed, or > > Cette assertion n'est pas correct, les textes d'Afrinic sont assez clair et ?taient bas?s sur la bonne foi des membres ? respecter les principes de base, de la bonne pratique et non sur certains capitalistes v?reux qui ont des agendas cach?s. C'est pourquoi certaines conditions qui normalement ?taient d'office compris par les parties, n'ont pas ? ?tre transcrit dans le RSA au risque en le faisant d'avoir un document aussi gros qu'une bible. Ce membre a profiter de certaines familles (chemin pas tr?s correct) pour obtenir les ressources qu'il a avec l'aide de certains membres corrompu du staff et du Board qui se connaissent tr?s bien. > > Cela ne change pas que la proc?dure d'obtention n'a pas ?t? propre, clean. It is your assertion that is not correct. You cannot make policy up out of thin air when a contract and written governing documents exist and contain contrary statements. To do so is a path to anarchy, not a responsible way to run a major internet registry. > > > within the AFRINIC Bylaws, or within any community-apporved policies > which would allow AFRINIC to now withdraw those allocations in 2021. > > As part of these over-arching contentions, Lu Heng has also actually or > effectively asserted that there are little or no binding requirements upon > AFRINIC resource members that they must operate or deploy their assigned > number resources in a manner which preferences any particular geographical > region. > > Ceci aussi n'est pas correct, c'est faire preuve de mauvaise foi que d'interpr?ter les textes d'Afrinic dans ce sens. Il faut tenir compte de l'historique de l'attribution des ressources. Elles sont belles et bien r?gionales et non globales. Ceci est incontestable m?me par toi Ronald. Donc ce n'est parce qu'il a mal interpr?t? les textes d'Afrinic qu'il a raison. Here, again, it is you, Arnaud who are not correct. Even the history of address distribution started out being globally managed from a single point. Eventually, regional registries were created, first in Europe and then in Asia for the purposes of linguistic and time-zone convenience and little else. Other than LACNIC, I am not aware of a single RIR which has any in-region use requirement codified in its governing documents. Even in the case of LACNIC, it is permitted to use up to 49.9999999% of your address space out of region. > > I personally do not have sufficent information to judge whether he is > right or wrong about any of these contentions and so I reserve judgement. > > Non personne ne fait de jugement mais chacun pr?sente son opinion personnelle. On peut se tromper mais les arguments historiques sont ind?l?biles, on en peut pas ne pas en tenir compte. Indeed. There is a long history in every RIR of out-of-region use of addresses by multi-regional companies. I agree that this history should not be ignored. Why do you insist on trying to do so? > He may perhaps be right, in which case it is NOT true to say that > "Afrinic resource are meant for {the} African region". And if that is > true, it may defy and fly in the face of many people's beliefs and > expectations, including mine, but beliefs and expectations are not > the law. > > C'est surprenant que l'aspect historique t'?chappe ? se point sauf si ta m?moire est brusquement devenue s?lective. Les registres sont tous appel?s Registre R?gionaux, par cons?quence s?mantique, toutes leurs activit?s sont r?gionales et les ressources dont elles ont la charge sont r?serv?es ? leur r?gion, pour que ces ressources se retrouvent dans une autre r?gion, il faut une politique de transfert inter-region duement ratifi?e. Ce qui n'est pas le cas d'Afrinic. Par cons?quent ces ressources doivent ?tre utilis?es uniquement dans sa r?gion sauf conditions exceptionnelles accord?es par d'Afrinic. > > Nous avons vu comment des gens ont voulu faire passer une telle politique par des voies controvers?es, mais qui a ?chou? heureusement. > Yes, because they support registrants headquartered (or domiciled) in their respective regions. Their activities are regional, but this does not require that their members or customers activities be entirely regional. The idea that their resources are reserved strictly for the region in which they operate is a fallacy that is not true in any RIR, not even LACNIC which comes closest to such a restriction. As to your claimed failure of the resource transfer policy, please point to where this was declared. To the best of my knowledge, its current state is pending board ratification. > The law is the law, contracts are in writing, and the courts > are now tasked with figuring out who is in the right and who is in the > wrong. The speculations and fervent beliefs of the rest of us, as > expressed on this mailing list, will, in the end, be rather entirely > irrelevant. > > Merci Ronald de ne pas glisser dans tes informations souvent plausibles, des informations erron?es ou non fond?es. Of all people, RFG is not one I would accuse of having frequently erroneous or unfounded information. There are many areas where I don?t agree with RFG and even some areas where I find his ?UI? difficult. Nonetheless, I find him to be quite diligent about facts and that he operates at a very high degree of accuracy. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Wed Jul 28 06:25:01 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 08:25:01 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <4ad88a26-f9d2-7ec6-b5f7-1ef518092fa6@geier.ne.tz> <21421F9F-001E-43D3-A3EA-37184F4CE7F8@delong.com> <8430721b-7fcd-e6ec-8b20-b0af673ae9eb@geier.ne.tz> <82C1F7EE-9A34-4630-9C9C-B8AF73B6E147@consulintel.es> Message-ID: <7DD7B5FE-2E28-4758-AC0F-A89603E1F292@consulintel.es> Hi Owen, Not speaking about this case but in general, even not in the RIRs/Internet business (I make an equivalence in the parenthesis). When there are obligations (here bylaws, RSA, policies), for providing a service (here resources), and the information provided by the "receiving party" is not according to those obligations/rules, but false or partial information is used to obtain those resources, and the time demonstrates that the provided information was untrue or incomplete, even if there was a staff mistake to provide those resources because the conditions were not sufficiently met, it is perfectly legal to cancel the service. There are examples of that in our environment: If I recall correctly, RIPE NCC has successfully got back resources from several LIRs that, for different reasons, have been in that situation. ?El 28/7/21 5:00, "Owen DeLong" escribi?: > On Jul 27, 2021, at 12:30 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote: > > This will be very simple to resolve (not taking a position in one side or the other because I don't have all the real facts and documents). > > The original justificacion of the request of the resources I don't think it had so many "secret" and "confidential" details. After several years if any "secrets" were there, probably aren't longer something that can't published now. We have already agreed that the original justification is no longer relevant and that, like any ISP in business for more than 8 years, things have changed and we have adapted. > So why not CI, voluntarely publish that information? I don't have any stance on this game, but if I was CI, this will be the best way to probe my points. Because it is no longer relevant. > Otherwise, I will suggest that AFRINIC asks the court to incorporate that in the proceedings if is not there already, this way, whatever is the result of the case, everybody will know it. At least in the countries I know, the results of the cases are public, as well as the documents that were incorporated during all the process: transparency. In reality, even if a curative submission is required (if the last filed justification to which I do not have access, TBH), I would suggest they simply modify their justification to the following: We will use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own infrastructure and on our customers? networks. This is a justification which meets the letter of the law of the policy and which does not preclude leasing. Owen ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From noah at neo.co.tz Wed Jul 28 06:31:51 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:31:51 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 6:43 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > > > On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:35, Omo Oaiya wrote: > > ? > > On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: > > > In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite persuasively > that > there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa on > Cloud > on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand. I personally have > no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I > personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that > relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance. But to try > to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of the > clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous. It is silly. > > > I did not deny that a relationship exists. I pointed out that there is no > evidence presented to indicate that it is anything more than > customer/supplier. > In the last board elections where Elkins defeated Paul Wolner, there were multiple resource members who received phone calls from HongKong asking them to vote for Wolner. Check the archives. Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leoso at afcast.com Wed Jul 28 06:43:30 2021 From: leoso at afcast.com (Leo S) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:43:30 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> Message-ID: Very funny, it looks like a political game On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 2:33 PM Noah wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 6:43 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > >> >> >> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:35, Omo Oaiya wrote: >> >> ? >> >> On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette >> wrote: >> >> >> In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite persuasively >> that >> there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa on >> Cloud >> on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand. I personally have >> no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I >> personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that >> relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance. But to try >> to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of the >> clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous. It is silly. >> >> >> I did not deny that a relationship exists. I pointed out that there is no >> evidence presented to indicate that it is anything more than >> customer/supplier. >> > > In the last board elections where Elkins defeated Paul Wolner, there were > multiple resource members who received phone calls from HongKong asking > them to vote for Wolner. > > Check the archives. > > Noah > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hjul.paul at gmail.com Wed Jul 28 07:16:40 2021 From: hjul.paul at gmail.com (Paul Hjul) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:16:40 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am not sure I understand why the reaction being given by so many people is to question or criticize the courts of Mauritius, I also wonder whether they include the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council (JCPC) in this questioning of capability. No doubt the fact that Mauritius can be painted as an internationalist jurisdiction and that it remains a commonwealth jurisdiction with appeals at the JCPC and I am surprised that nobody has attacked Mauritius as a colonial and post-colonial project or some other such epithet. While I agree that generally we should wait to get more from the courts I can't help but identify a worrying trend of groundwork being laid to rally behind the court if it finds against Cloud Innovation and to launch a specious attack on the court if it finds for Cloud Innovation. This is quite deleterious. I am therefore going to reply to somebody whose good faith I do not doubt and who I am generally in agreement with on the big picture issues but who I fear is making adverse presumptions about the mechanics of legal systems at play. > The freezing of the bank accounts is most certainly a truly startling > development and one that would most certainly NOT have happened in the > United States, or, I expect, in most other civilized countries, at least > not prior to a full trial on the merits and the actual conclusion of the > over-arching legal case. There is nothing uniquely peculiar about a court granting an attachment or injunction against a litigants domestic bank accounts. Mareva injunctions ( http://templegroup.mu/mareva-injunction-and-solid-evidence-of-a-real-risk-of-dissipation-of-assets-sun-pat-g-k-f-ors-v-thomson-c-f-ors-2019-scj-5/ is a pretty nice write up from a non-Mauritius perspective) are certainly not unique to Mauritius - hell the term is from an English case. And I've managed to secure an interdict in South Africa on a bank account pending determination of a main action and just in the nick of time - funds on their way out the country, getting an interdict after hours on a Friday. The main reason it happens is if a court is satisfied that the litigant will dissipate their property or assets to frustrate the plaintiff by the time trial occurs. There are a couple of other reasons and a court granting an attachment or freeze on bank accounts and it usually speaks volumes about the party whose experiencing the attachment. Ships get attached all the time at the commencement of an action ("arrested" the ship is arrested but for obvious reasons not even the United States puts the physical ship in a county jail after arresting it) and counterfeit (or allegedly counterfeit) and patent infringing goods are possibly too easy to get an attachment on in many jurisdictions - and IP lawyers can argue about this for weeks on end. Ultimately I am not sure why you are presuming this is a "development" related to Mauritius because it simply isn't. Unless you exclude the United Kingdom, Switzerland, Canada, Australia, Germany, Netherlands and France from your definition of "civilized countries" the assertion reeks of a Yankee mischaracterization. There is a broad scope to debate whether particular jurisdictions strike exactly the right balances and the like but I am not aware of any litigant other than Afrinic finding Mauritius to be a jurisdiction that they regret being subject to. Even if there is something a person doesn't like about Mauritius law or legal system little has changed since the decision to incorporate in that jurisdiction arises. I can off hand think of plenty of other jurisdictions where I'd be concerned about foreign firms being able to put me on a barrel through finding some basis upon which draconian measures are practiced for some cause of action or another. At present Apple is engaged in a little squabble where it has tried to tell the English courts that they can't restrain imports into the country or set license rates which Apple finds commercially unacceptable. Trust me if Apple persists in playing chicken with the English (and Welsh) courts they will find themselves on the back end of things, and Afrinic shouldn't be perceived to be or actually be playing chicken with courts. My hunch is that somebody representing Afrinic thought they could tell the Mauritius courts what they could and couldn't do. If this hunch is correct it would represent the sort of insufferable arrogance which could see the organization destroyed. This would clearly not be in the interests of the members nor of the region. Firms do this when they think they are indispensable and legal representatives may push their luck if they think that a court will be hesitant to act against their client. Ask Mr Zuma (who is in prison right now) and his legal team about the assumption a party can make that they can bolster against a court. Even if my hunch is wrong and the reason the court has concluded that there is a risk of dissipation is different or there is some special course of proceedings that can get a Mauritius domiciled entity over a barrel the organization needs to address the source of the risk of adverse legal proceedings. It is therefore strongly a case that Afrinic needs to have the disputes that are arising resolved expeditiously and so the organization needs to commit to commercial resolution process such as arbitration rather than pretending to be a government. The lack of a dispute resolution by mediation and arbitration clause in the service agreement is an inexcusable omission from Afrinic and it would certainly make things considerably better if a justifiable process preceded the organization terminating the agreement While I am not certain as to whether this is how it will play out if Afrinic purported to terminate the contract with Cloud Innovation on spurious grounds and this termination is viewed as repudiation by Afrinic it is quite easy that the damages are considerable, this would have been avoided if the service agreement was differently designed. The attempt in the service agreements to irrationally prejudice a member and favour the organization cannot end well. But lets hold to a United States standard (which you assert is a jurisdiction where this would NOT happen). It most certainly is the case that on a daily basis in the United States injunctions taking the form of TROs (granted if there is irreparable harm threatened) and prejudgement attachment writs (which IIRC is available when there is liquidated damages arising from a grave breach of contract) are issued with the same effect as preventing a party from undermining ongoing legal proceedings before the conclusion happens. While SCOTUS has quite clearly differentiated US jurisprudence from the UK injunction practice and I assume the French saisie conservatoire practice, the 5 v 4 decision of SCOTUS is not without criticism ( https://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4076&context=flr) and as is always the case lawyers will find a way to promote their clients interests. Thus between arrests, writs and TROs it is difficult argue a substantive departure from the fact that a litigant with standing before a court who would find themself with a brutum fulmen if the court does not grant some relief in equity to restrain the defending party from dissipating assets will readily find in any civilized jurisdiction a remedy of some kind. Countries which do not provide this ability for a litigant are frankly the ones which are uncivilized - ubi ius ibi remedium and all that. I'd go so far as to say that bank accounts are definitely frozen daily in every federal circuit and in many federal district courts (I am quite sure both the Southern District of New York and the Northern District of Illinois have standardized bank restraint prayer forms of practice that both the feds and litigants faced with a recalcitrant and dissipating defendant can and do use). In the US of course a plaintiff who has a lien, such as the IRS, of course gets an attachment via the lien (rather than the proven liability) and then you really are faced with a headache. The fact that it is usually criminal enterprises who find their bank accounts attached speaks to what a person has to satisfy a court of before getting this relief. It is also why it is quite bizarre that the organization is publicly boasting of the ability to circumvent the order. If anything I think the general sense of foreign observers is that government in the United States is too capable of obtaining restraint relief and private actors not enough. If Afrinic was based in the United States when your revelations about Ernest broke (or if it involved US nationals committing the bribery) it would be the US asking to freeze bank accounts - as they did with FIFA: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35119240 The point is that whether an English-esque jurisdiction like Mauritius (the jurisdiction not the language, appeals from the Mauritius Supreme Court ultimately lies to the JCPC in London and this does actually occur - there are at least two matters of the calendar at present) or a jurisdiction like South Africa or the United States (common law jurisdictions which have deviated from the English courts nomenclature practice or principles on this issue) or a civil law jurisdiction you will find that courts can restrain a malevolent (in the opinion of the court) counterparty when a proper case to do so is made. Many individuals and organization maintain banking facilities in Mauritius. The question is what did Afrinic do to cause a Mauritian court to conclude that they present a risk of defying the courts orders and ruling or otherwise dissipating property or frustrating the rights of another litigant. Because neither party is giving us actual documentation from the courts we have to assume that both parties are "in the wrong" and that the Mauritius courts will give no party preferential treatment. For this reason if we hear of a matter being struck from the roll or an order lapsing or the like we have to assume that its a procedural issue and await the full determination of the matter on the merits, similarly if we hear of ordinary relief being granted by a court of a procedural nature its to keep the status quo pending determination of merits. If we witness relief being granted that requires the court to be satisfied that the party against whom the relief is given has done something extraordinarily bad then we can assume the later. If the parties give us the information candidly we can get a better idea of what is for what but honestly the sooner the parties get the disputes handled in commercial dispute resolution mechanisms the better. Disparaging the Mauritius courts is wholly out of place and counter-productive - lets hope Afrinic doesn't take any further to doing so as it will not end well. The country has a credible judiciary and regard for the rule of law is on track relative to the continent (at present I think Rwanda and Namibia are fairing better on some indices but longer term trends mean unless Afrinic wants to relocate to Namibia - which has a considerably less developed banking and related sectors and would mean abandoning the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. It might mean that commercial lawyers in Hong Kong and Singapore are less in waters but to what benefit for the system. Personally I quite like the fact that Afrinic is in a jurisdiction which has not abandoned the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council and certainly prefer it to a jurisdiction which has kept the wigs and trappings while having a general erosion in other ways). In so far as a section of the membership is pushing the organization to adopt a xenophobic anti-rule of law based approach those members other members must distance themselves from such sentiment - this likely includes joining in on an action for the dissolution of the organization even if such outcome is sub-optimal. The Mauritian courts have restrained Afrinic's banking accounts this should be a "come to Jesus moment" for the organization, sadly if the chatter on this mailing list is anything to go by members are going to have to find themselves taking action or the Board is going to have to come clean about this "assisted review" and what steps it has taken or authorized to cause a court to restrain bank accounts. We received communications pronouncing victory in litigation only for it to turn out that less than a week later to be quite different. Since then we've had additional board resignations and uninformative updates but no commitment of the organization to defend itself while respecting and complying with the courts. All of this is regardless of the fundamental merits of whether the considerable allocations made to certain members. Such determination of merits should be done on a fact and law basis by an appropriate forum. The Board and staff are clearly not such an appropriate forum. Moreover > I have previously mentioned other reasons that I and others might have > for harboring displeasure with respect to the Mauritian legal system. > There is no need for me to repeat those now, and in fact I have been > cautioned against doing so again out of concern that either I or some > AFRRINIC staff members might, as a result, be convicted of the heinous > offense of "disrespecting the court" and that we might thus find ourselves > dragged away in chains to what is no doubt some special Mauritian dark > and dank dungeon specially reserved for offenders of such a unique caliber. You mean like Steven Dozinger who a single US judge has caused to be detained without trial for more than 2 years? Personal liberty is a much greater infringement than bank accounts. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/28/chevron-lawyer-steven-donziger-ecuador-house-arrest . There is no reason to disrespect the courts, there is every reason question the commitment of role players investigate and prosecute criminal actors. One cannot but wonder whether the reason for honing in on a large resource member is as a distraction - its a nice narrative, the organization is "under threat" from "foreigners" and "capitalists" rather than has been gutted by corruption. This narrative is bullshit, if there is misconduct on the part of Cloud Innovation then there is plenty of room within the Mauritian and Seychelles legal systems to hold them accountable. If there is a genuine felt policy gap then there is a process to develop policies. Although if you want to take a course of disrespecting courts in the hope of ending up in a dank dungeon I am quite sure arrangements to use the Tower as more than a tourist destination can be made - that will certainly be darker and more dank as a dungeon than anything on a tropical island. > Whether that is the best way to run a national legal system or not is, > I suppose, in the eye of the beholder. All I can say for sure is that at > this moment I am really quite glad that I personally do not own any bank > accounts in Mauritius. Many multinationals who've got capabilities to perform a proper assessment of risk are very happy to have bank accounts in Mauritius and I am quite certain that a lot of the motivation for Afrinic being domiciled in Mauritius was because several regional organizations didn't want the bank accounts in South Africa. Undoubtedly if Afrinic was domiciled in Namibia we'd be sitting with complaints about the Namibian legal system today. I don't think you could end up in a dark and dank dungeon if for no other reason than the country is mostly sand. If anything the main fear any US citizen has is their bank accounts in foreign jurisdictions being frozen because of a squeeze from the US on other jurisdictions. I doubt any African dungeon can be worse than the PATH train service between New York and New Jersey. > In short, from where I am sitting, *everybody* is hiding something, and > I don't believe that any of this information hiding is being done for my > benefit -or- for the benefit of the AFRINIC community. The folks doing > the hiding are looking after their own interests. I don't think anybody with any understanding of these things doubts that people are hiding information. Personally I'd love to know exactly how the allocations were made and there is plenty of reason to suspect various things. The question is which organization owes a duty to the community and to its members? A commercial venture or a member based organization? The main thing the community needs to know right now is whether the hostmaster made the allocations of such large blocks in circumstances which Afrinic's records reveal is extra-ordinary. Consider the situation where the staff of Afrinic for corrupt purposes made such a large allocation to a firm where they were engaged as paid consultants in the hope of using same as a front. Or a situation in which an organization emphatically paid Afrinic a tidy sum for such a large allocation. In either circumstance it is against the members interests for the truth to be brushed aside and for the organization to through membership termination being adversely impaired, Afrinic has a corrupt interest in covering up and exactly what a person believes is just will depend from person to person but be intimately linked to the facts. Its also worth pointing out that a party seeking ex parte relief has responsibility to be highly candid with the court (to take the court into its confidence as it were), on the 4th August the Mauritius courts could express extreme opprobrium against Cloud Innovation if same neglected to disclose material information - and their lawyers know this, so its fair to assume that they have avoided this risk by being candid at least with the court. But here is the major point - either Cloud Innovation or whichever predecessors they obtained transfer from - were legitimately allocated the address space or there was something untoward and covered up for many years by Afrinic. Asking them to provide the evidence to aide in destroying them is so profoundly contrary to a functioning justice system that any jurisdiction that doesn't want to be a banana republic will understand why its the case. Apart from self-preservation or the like there may be other reasons why they don't want to make certain disclosures - some of which may relate to actors who are hostile to a free and open Internet and for whom such information would be beneficial. Many concerns would evaporate if a credible process with trustworthy actors were involved. But this entire activity from Afrinic reeks of seeking to brush aside the hard questions and hope that some boogey man threat of foreigners will cause a glossing over. I understand why the CEO might want to be cautious and not disclose as much as he should. What needs to end and end soon is a culture within the organization of believing it is too big to fail - because that attitude has caused it to fail and the sooner it admits this failure the sooner it can fix itself. This requires more than anything a decision from the Board, sadly we've already seen good members of the board resign and when one considers that a seat on the board was until recently held by the now disgraced Vika Mpisane it is difficult not to conclude that absent sufficient external pressure that actually has efficacy nothing is going to change. In a world were nobody can be trusted it is best that the law rather than capricious men rule the roost. This is why as Andrew has already called for and I have put forward in the members discussion a meeting to fill the vacancy is needed, we should here more next week from the court but if Afrinic fails to get the injunction on their account lifted then it truly is time for the discussion to shift away from whether the Mauritius courts should be restraining the bank accounts and towards how does Afrinic resolve its dispute crisis. Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Wed Jul 28 07:49:40 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 09:49:40 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very good observations Paul. My doubt here is if there was sufficient evidence for a ?real disk of dissipation?. I doubt AFRINIC is such kind of organization where the Board can take the risk of doing so without consulting the membership. Otherwise, the Board could be committing presumable illegal actions, which may have criminal personal consequences for each them. I?m not convinced the Court has a good understanding of what is AFRINIC and that if AFRINIC doesn?t have funds to continue operations, the consequences for all the Internet community, not just AFRINIC members, could be generating more damages than what the order is trying to protect. Court orders must be always well balanced. Regarding the arbitration, I may be wrong, but I don?t recall having seen that in any of the RIRs documents. Definitively it is a good point. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet I am not sure I understand why the reaction being given by so many people is to question or criticize the courts of Mauritius, I also wonder whether they include the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council (JCPC) in this questioning of capability. No doubt the fact that Mauritius can be painted as an internationalist jurisdiction and that it remains a commonwealth jurisdiction with appeals at the JCPC and I am surprised that nobody has attacked Mauritius as a colonial and post-colonial project or some other such epithet. While I agree that generally we should wait to get more from the courts I can't help but identify a worrying trend of groundwork being laid to rally behind the court if it finds against Cloud Innovation and to launch a specious attack on the court if it finds for Cloud Innovation. This is quite deleterious. I am therefore going to reply to somebody whose good faith I do not doubt and who I am generally in agreement with on the big picture issues but who I fear is making adverse presumptions about the mechanics of legal systems at play. The freezing of the bank accounts is most certainly a truly startling development and one that would most certainly NOT have happened in the United States, or, I expect, in most other civilized countries, at least not prior to a full trial on the merits and the actual conclusion of the over-arching legal case. There is nothing uniquely peculiar about a court granting an attachment or injunction against a litigants domestic bank accounts. Mareva injunctions (http://templegroup.mu/mareva-injunction-and-solid-evidence-of-a-real-risk-of-dissipation-of-assets-sun-pat-g-k-f-ors-v-thomson-c-f-ors-2019-scj-5/ is a pretty nice write up from a non-Mauritius perspective) are certainly not unique to Mauritius - hell the term is from an English case. And I've managed to secure an interdict in South Africa on a bank account pending determination of a main action and just in the nick of time - funds on their way out the country, getting an interdict after hours on a Friday. The main reason it happens is if a court is satisfied that the litigant will dissipate their property or assets to frustrate the plaintiff by the time trial occurs. There are a couple of other reasons and a court granting an attachment or freeze on bank accounts and it usually speaks volumes about the party whose experiencing the attachment. Ships get attached all the time at the commencement of an action ("arrested" the ship is arrested but for obvious reasons not even the United States puts the physical ship in a county jail after arresting it) and counterfeit (or allegedly counterfeit) and patent infringing goods are possibly too easy to get an attachment on in many jurisdictions - and IP lawyers can argue about this for weeks on end. Ultimately I am not sure why you are presuming this is a "development" related to Mauritius because it simply isn't. Unless you exclude the United Kingdom, Switzerland, Canada, Australia, Germany, Netherlands and France from your definition of "civilized countries" the assertion reeks of a Yankee mischaracterization. There is a broad scope to debate whether particular jurisdictions strike exactly the right balances and the like but I am not aware of any litigant other than Afrinic finding Mauritius to be a jurisdiction that they regret being subject to. Even if there is something a person doesn't like about Mauritius law or legal system little has changed since the decision to incorporate in that jurisdiction arises. I can off hand think of plenty of other jurisdictions where I'd be concerned about foreign firms being able to put me on a barrel through finding some basis upon which draconian measures are practiced for some cause of action or another. At present Apple is engaged in a little squabble where it has tried to tell the English courts that they can't restrain imports into the country or set license rates which Apple finds commercially unacceptable. Trust me if Apple persists in playing chicken with the English (and Welsh) courts they will find themselves on the back end of things, and Afrinic shouldn't be perceived to be or actually be playing chicken with courts. My hunch is that somebody representing Afrinic thought they could tell the Mauritius courts what they could and couldn't do. If this hunch is correct it would represent the sort of insufferable arrogance which could see the organization destroyed. This would clearly not be in the interests of the members nor of the region. Firms do this when they think they are indispensable and legal representatives may push their luck if they think that a court will be hesitant to act against their client. Ask Mr Zuma (who is in prison right now) and his legal team about the assumption a party can make that they can bolster against a court. Even if my hunch is wrong and the reason the court has concluded that there is a risk of dissipation is different or there is some special course of proceedings that can get a Mauritius domiciled entity over a barrel the organization needs to address the source of the risk of adverse legal proceedings. It is therefore strongly a case that Afrinic needs to have the disputes that are arising resolved expeditiously and so the organization needs to commit to commercial resolution process such as arbitration rather than pretending to be a government. The lack of a dispute resolution by mediation and arbitration clause in the service agreement is an inexcusable omission from Afrinic and it would certainly make things considerably better if a justifiable process preceded the organization terminating the agreement While I am not certain as to whether this is how it will play out if Afrinic purported to terminate the contract with Cloud Innovation on spurious grounds and this termination is viewed as repudiation by Afrinic it is quite easy that the damages are considerable, this would have been avoided if the service agreement was differently designed. The attempt in the service agreements to irrationally prejudice a member and favour the organization cannot end well. But lets hold to a United States standard (which you assert is a jurisdiction where this would NOT happen). It most certainly is the case that on a daily basis in the United States injunctions taking the form of TROs (granted if there is irreparable harm threatened) and prejudgement attachment writs (which IIRC is available when there is liquidated damages arising from a grave breach of contract) are issued with the same effect as preventing a party from undermining ongoing legal proceedings before the conclusion happens. While SCOTUS has quite clearly differentiated US jurisprudence from the UK injunction practice and I assume the French saisie conservatoire practice, the 5 v 4 decision of SCOTUS is not without criticism (https://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4076&context=flr) and as is always the case lawyers will find a way to promote their clients interests. Thus between arrests, writs and TROs it is difficult argue a substantive departure from the fact that a litigant with standing before a court who would find themself with a brutum fulmen if the court does not grant some relief in equity to restrain the defending party from dissipating assets will readily find in any civilized jurisdiction a remedy of some kind. Countries which do not provide this ability for a litigant are frankly the ones which are uncivilized - ubi ius ibi remedium and all that. I'd go so far as to say that bank accounts are definitely frozen daily in every federal circuit and in many federal district courts (I am quite sure both the Southern District of New York and the Northern District of Illinois have standardized bank restraint prayer forms of practice that both the feds and litigants faced with a recalcitrant and dissipating defendant can and do use). In the US of course a plaintiff who has a lien, such as the IRS, of course gets an attachment via the lien (rather than the proven liability) and then you really are faced with a headache. The fact that it is usually criminal enterprises who find their bank accounts attached speaks to what a person has to satisfy a court of before getting this relief. It is also why it is quite bizarre that the organization is publicly boasting of the ability to circumvent the order. If anything I think the general sense of foreign observers is that government in the United States is too capable of obtaining restraint relief and private actors not enough. If Afrinic was based in the United States when your revelations about Ernest broke (or if it involved US nationals committing the bribery) it would be the US asking to freeze bank accounts - as they did with FIFA: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35119240 The point is that whether an English-esque jurisdiction like Mauritius (the jurisdiction not the language, appeals from the Mauritius Supreme Court ultimately lies to the JCPC in London and this does actually occur - there are at least two matters of the calendar at present) or a jurisdiction like South Africa or the United States (common law jurisdictions which have deviated from the English courts nomenclature practice or principles on this issue) or a civil law jurisdiction you will find that courts can restrain a malevolent (in the opinion of the court) counterparty when a proper case to do so is made. Many individuals and organization maintain banking facilities in Mauritius. The question is what did Afrinic do to cause a Mauritian court to conclude that they present a risk of defying the courts orders and ruling or otherwise dissipating property or frustrating the rights of another litigant. Because neither party is giving us actual documentation from the courts we have to assume that both parties are "in the wrong" and that the Mauritius courts will give no party preferential treatment. For this reason if we hear of a matter being struck from the roll or an order lapsing or the like we have to assume that its a procedural issue and await the full determination of the matter on the merits, similarly if we hear of ordinary relief being granted by a court of a procedural nature its to keep the status quo pending determination of merits. If we witness relief being granted that requires the court to be satisfied that the party against whom the relief is given has done something extraordinarily bad then we can assume the later. If the parties give us the information candidly we can get a better idea of what is for what but honestly the sooner the parties get the disputes handled in commercial dispute resolution mechanisms the better. Disparaging the Mauritius courts is wholly out of place and counter-productive - lets hope Afrinic doesn't take any further to doing so as it will not end well. The country has a credible judiciary and regard for the rule of law is on track relative to the continent (at present I think Rwanda and Namibia are fairing better on some indices but longer term trends mean unless Afrinic wants to relocate to Namibia - which has a considerably less developed banking and related sectors and would mean abandoning the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. It might mean that commercial lawyers in Hong Kong and Singapore are less in waters but to what benefit for the system. Personally I quite like the fact that Afrinic is in a jurisdiction which has not abandoned the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council and certainly prefer it to a jurisdiction which has kept the wigs and trappings while having a general erosion in other ways). In so far as a section of the membership is pushing the organization to adopt a xenophobic anti-rule of law based approach those members other members must distance themselves from such sentiment - this likely includes joining in on an action for the dissolution of the organization even if such outcome is sub-optimal. The Mauritian courts have restrained Afrinic's banking accounts this should be a "come to Jesus moment" for the organization, sadly if the chatter on this mailing list is anything to go by members are going to have to find themselves taking action or the Board is going to have to come clean about this "assisted review" and what steps it has taken or authorized to cause a court to restrain bank accounts. We received communications pronouncing victory in litigation only for it to turn out that less than a week later to be quite different. Since then we've had additional board resignations and uninformative updates but no commitment of the organization to defend itself while respecting and complying with the courts. All of this is regardless of the fundamental merits of whether the considerable allocations made to certain members. Such determination of merits should be done on a fact and law basis by an appropriate forum. The Board and staff are clearly not such an appropriate forum. Moreover I have previously mentioned other reasons that I and others might have for harboring displeasure with respect to the Mauritian legal system. There is no need for me to repeat those now, and in fact I have been cautioned against doing so again out of concern that either I or some AFRRINIC staff members might, as a result, be convicted of the heinous offense of "disrespecting the court" and that we might thus find ourselves dragged away in chains to what is no doubt some special Mauritian dark and dank dungeon specially reserved for offenders of such a unique caliber. You mean like Steven Dozinger who a single US judge has caused to be detained without trial for more than 2 years? Personal liberty is a much greater infringement than bank accounts. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/28/chevron-lawyer-steven-donziger-ecuador-house-arrest . There is no reason to disrespect the courts, there is every reason question the commitment of role players investigate and prosecute criminal actors. One cannot but wonder whether the reason for honing in on a large resource member is as a distraction - its a nice narrative, the organization is "under threat" from "foreigners" and "capitalists" rather than has been gutted by corruption. This narrative is bullshit, if there is misconduct on the part of Cloud Innovation then there is plenty of room within the Mauritian and Seychelles legal systems to hold them accountable. If there is a genuine felt policy gap then there is a process to develop policies. Although if you want to take a course of disrespecting courts in the hope of ending up in a dank dungeon I am quite sure arrangements to use the Tower as more than a tourist destination can be made - that will certainly be darker and more dank as a dungeon than anything on a tropical island. Whether that is the best way to run a national legal system or not is, I suppose, in the eye of the beholder. All I can say for sure is that at this moment I am really quite glad that I personally do not own any bank accounts in Mauritius. Many multinationals who've got capabilities to perform a proper assessment of risk are very happy to have bank accounts in Mauritius and I am quite certain that a lot of the motivation for Afrinic being domiciled in Mauritius was because several regional organizations didn't want the bank accounts in South Africa. Undoubtedly if Afrinic was domiciled in Namibia we'd be sitting with complaints about the Namibian legal system today. I don't think you could end up in a dark and dank dungeon if for no other reason than the country is mostly sand. If anything the main fear any US citizen has is their bank accounts in foreign jurisdictions being frozen because of a squeeze from the US on other jurisdictions. I doubt any African dungeon can be worse than the PATH train service between New York and New Jersey. In short, from where I am sitting, *everybody* is hiding something, and I don't believe that any of this information hiding is being done for my benefit -or- for the benefit of the AFRINIC community. The folks doing the hiding are looking after their own interests. I don't think anybody with any understanding of these things doubts that people are hiding information. Personally I'd love to know exactly how the allocations were made and there is plenty of reason to suspect various things. The question is which organization owes a duty to the community and to its members? A commercial venture or a member based organization? The main thing the community needs to know right now is whether the hostmaster made the allocations of such large blocks in circumstances which Afrinic's records reveal is extra-ordinary. Consider the situation where the staff of Afrinic for corrupt purposes made such a large allocation to a firm where they were engaged as paid consultants in the hope of using same as a front. Or a situation in which an organization emphatically paid Afrinic a tidy sum for such a large allocation. In either circumstance it is against the members interests for the truth to be brushed aside and for the organization to through membership termination being adversely impaired, Afrinic has a corrupt interest in covering up and exactly what a person believes is just will depend from person to person but be intimately linked to the facts. Its also worth pointing out that a party seeking ex parte relief has responsibility to be highly candid with the court (to take the court into its confidence as it were), on the 4th August the Mauritius courts could express extreme opprobrium against Cloud Innovation if same neglected to disclose material information - and their lawyers know this, so its fair to assume that they have avoided this risk by being candid at least with the court. But here is the major point - either Cloud Innovation or whichever predecessors they obtained transfer from - were legitimately allocated the address space or there was something untoward and covered up for many years by Afrinic. Asking them to provide the evidence to aide in destroying them is so profoundly contrary to a functioning justice system that any jurisdiction that doesn't want to be a banana republic will understand why its the case. Apart from self-preservation or the like there may be other reasons why they don't want to make certain disclosures - some of which may relate to actors who are hostile to a free and open Internet and for whom such information would be beneficial. Many concerns would evaporate if a credible process with trustworthy actors were involved. But this entire activity from Afrinic reeks of seeking to brush aside the hard questions and hope that some boogey man threat of foreigners will cause a glossing over. I understand why the CEO might want to be cautious and not disclose as much as he should. What needs to end and end soon is a culture within the organization of believing it is too big to fail - because that attitude has caused it to fail and the sooner it admits this failure the sooner it can fix itself. This requires more than anything a decision from the Board, sadly we've already seen good members of the board resign and when one considers that a seat on the board was until recently held by the now disgraced Vika Mpisane it is difficult not to conclude that absent sufficient external pressure that actually has efficacy nothing is going to change. In a world were nobody can be trusted it is best that the law rather than capricious men rule the roost. This is why as Andrew has already called for and I have put forward in the members discussion a meeting to fill the vacancy is needed, we should here more next week from the court but if Afrinic fails to get the injunction on their account lifted then it truly is time for the discussion to shift away from whether the Mauritius courts should be restraining the bank accounts and towards how does Afrinic resolve its dispute crisis. Paul _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ali at hussein.me.ke Wed Jul 28 09:31:27 2021 From: ali at hussein.me.ke (Ali Hussein) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 12:31:27 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> Message-ID: It is a political game. Hence my post of yesterday. This is a wider conversation about African Internet Resources and who controls them. Let's be very careful not to be looped into non-issues. The MOST IMPORTANT conversation we MUST have is this:- 1. Who controls AFRINIC today. 2. Who will control it tomorrow. 3. Who is out to ensure that Board Members are aligned to which grouping. 4. Who are these groups? 5. Corporate Governance is a major issue here. Whilst I believe this is being handled and that it's a process we must be clear going forward that shedding light on all matters is super-critical. Light has a way of removing all crawling things out of the shadows and into the light. The Board's Fiduciary Responsibility has never been more important than ever. *Ali Hussein* Digital Transformation Tel: +254 713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with. On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 9:46 AM Leo S wrote: > Very funny, it looks like a political game > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 2:33 PM Noah wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 6:43 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < >> community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:35, Omo Oaiya wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> >>> On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite persuasively >>> that >>> there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa on >>> Cloud >>> on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand. I personally >>> have >>> no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I >>> personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that >>> relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance. But to try >>> to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of the >>> clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous. It is silly. >>> >>> >>> I did not deny that a relationship exists. I pointed out that there is >>> no evidence presented to indicate that it is anything more than >>> customer/supplier. >>> >> >> In the last board elections where Elkins defeated Paul Wolner, there were >> multiple resource members who received phone calls from HongKong asking >> them to vote for Wolner. >> >> Check the archives. >> >> Noah >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leoso at afcast.com Wed Jul 28 11:43:29 2021 From: leoso at afcast.com (Leo S) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 19:43:29 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> Message-ID: Yes I agree It's just that the management of AFRINIC may have changed with previous years. Although some people in the community questioned Cloud Innovation Ltd in the past few years, AFRINIC did not take any action, but now it has taken action. Maybe Cloud Innovation Ltd did not use their money well. Lead to the current ending, Cloud Innovation Ltd losing ground in management team of AFRINIC On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 5:31 PM Ali Hussein wrote: > It is a political game. Hence my post of yesterday. This is a wider > conversation about African Internet Resources and who controls them. Let's > be very careful not to be looped into non-issues. The MOST IMPORTANT > conversation we MUST have is this:- > > 1. Who controls AFRINIC today. > 2. Who will control it tomorrow. > 3. Who is out to ensure that Board Members are aligned to which grouping. > 4. Who are these groups? > 5. Corporate Governance is a major issue here. Whilst I believe this is > being handled and that it's a process we must be clear going forward that > shedding light on all matters is super-critical. Light has a way of > removing all crawling things out of the shadows and into the light. The > Board's Fiduciary Responsibility has never been more important than ever. > > *Ali Hussein* > > Digital Transformation > > > Tel: +254 713 601113 > > Twitter: @AliHKassim > > Skype: abu-jomo > > LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim > > > > > > Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely > mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the > organizations that I work with. > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 9:46 AM Leo S wrote: > >> Very funny, it looks like a political game >> >> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 2:33 PM Noah wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 6:43 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < >>> community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:35, Omo Oaiya wrote: >>>> >>>> ? >>>> >>>> On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite persuasively >>>> that >>>> there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa on >>>> Cloud >>>> on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand. I personally >>>> have >>>> no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I >>>> personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that >>>> relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance. But to >>>> try >>>> to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of the >>>> clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous. It is silly. >>>> >>>> >>>> I did not deny that a relationship exists. I pointed out that there is >>>> no evidence presented to indicate that it is anything more than >>>> customer/supplier. >>>> >>> >>> In the last board elections where Elkins defeated Paul Wolner, there >>> were multiple resource members who received phone calls from HongKong >>> asking them to vote for Wolner. >>> >>> Check the archives. >>> >>> Noah >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hjul.paul at gmail.com Wed Jul 28 11:59:00 2021 From: hjul.paul at gmail.com (Paul Hjul) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 13:59:00 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Update on legal case Message-ID: > > Very good observations Paul. > > > My doubt here is if there was sufficient evidence for a ?real disk of > dissipation?. I doubt AFRINIC is such kind of organization where the Board > can take the risk of doing so without consulting the membership. Otherwise, > the Board could be committing presumable illegal actions, which may have > criminal personal consequences for each them. > > > I?m not convinced the Court has a good understanding of what is AFRINIC > and that if AFRINIC doesn?t have funds to continue operations, the > consequences for all the Internet community, not just AFRINIC members, > could be generating more damages than what the order is trying to protect. > > > Court orders must be always well balanced. > > > Regarding the arbitration, I may be wrong, but I don?t recall having seen > that in any of the RIRs documents. Definitively it is a good point. > > > Regards, > Jordi > @jordipalet Thanks. Ja it may well be that the Court erred in finding a real risk of dissipation, there may well be less invasive means by which the court could ensure that a party acting against Afrinic is not left without relief because of dissipation. Urgent chamber processes do lend themselves to a risk of judicial error but there are safeguards and follow up proceedings. I am quite certain the court would grant Afrinic access to such funds as it requires to continue to function if a proper application that was candid was put forward. Unfortunately the document which has been posted suggests that rather than endeavouring to get a suitable amendment Afrinic sought to leave the litigant without relief at all - hence the court dismissing the urgent application and letting it stand as a summons for a hearing on the 4th August. It is certainly entirely open to critique the order or to feel that it doesn't strike entirely the correct balance but understanding that Courts can end up being quite a blunt instrument usually causes rational actors to move for dispute resolution which is less "winner takes all" especially in the commercial space. My inclination is to suspect that the Court has a better understanding of what Afrnic's role is than many other people and that any misunderstanding by the Court should be placed at the feet of Afrnic's legal team. Afrnic might be a somewhat peculiar organization but it isn't uniquely esoteric. I do fear that because a Court is acting at the petition of a litigant that the overall interests of the community may be infringed and I would be a lot more comfortable if an amicus was brought into the mix. Again though subject matter expertise can be ensured through using ADR and viewing the courts really as a guardian of the process by which the parties resolve things. To the best of my knowledge built in arbitration and dispute resolution clauses is not yet the norm at the RIRs although ARIN have included same in their service agreement: https://www.arin.net/about/corporate/agreements/rsa.pdf both in the termination clause (13) and as a general clause (14(k)). There are some North America specific facets to this and I wouldn't suggest liting the practice.from same. For one thing we really shouldn't be visiting Miami to sort things out. I'd prefer to avoid alligators and meth heads. In the context of Africa and Afrinic there is the MAIC (https://miac.mu/) which is in Mauritius and the AAFA could be approached for assistance in getting something suitable. Ideally the RSA needs to be reviewed and corrected to address this but a good first start would be evidence of Afrinic profferring to the various litigants it is fending off to enter into dispute resolution. If a meeting - as I believe must be called - is called to elect someone to fill the vacancy, then I am strongly of the view that a resolution binding the board to dispute resolution through MAIC and rendering board members personally liable for any costs incurred by the board as a result of failing to resolve the disputes in good faith is called for. Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dndannang at gmail.com Wed Jul 28 14:04:05 2021 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 17:04:05 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> Message-ID: I will be so kind to say that following the various threads, I do not want to make an unnecessary judgement but instead of building on the Internet Development in Africa, Cloud Innovation Ltd came to Kill, Steal and Destroy AFRINIC. On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 at 14:44, Leo S wrote: > Yes I agree It's just that the management of AFRINIC may have changed with > previous years. > Although some people in the community questioned Cloud Innovation Ltd in > the past few years, AFRINIC did not take any action, but now it has taken > action. Maybe Cloud Innovation Ltd did not use their money well. Lead to > the current ending, Cloud Innovation Ltd losing ground in management team > of AFRINIC > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 5:31 PM Ali Hussein wrote: > >> It is a political game. Hence my post of yesterday. This is a wider >> conversation about African Internet Resources and who controls them. Let's >> be very careful not to be looped into non-issues. The MOST IMPORTANT >> conversation we MUST have is this:- >> >> 1. Who controls AFRINIC today. >> 2. Who will control it tomorrow. >> 3. Who is out to ensure that Board Members are aligned to which grouping. >> 4. Who are these groups? >> 5. Corporate Governance is a major issue here. Whilst I believe this is >> being handled and that it's a process we must be clear going forward that >> shedding light on all matters is super-critical. Light has a way of >> removing all crawling things out of the shadows and into the light. The >> Board's Fiduciary Responsibility has never been more important than ever. >> >> *Ali Hussein* >> >> Digital Transformation >> >> >> Tel: +254 713 601113 >> >> Twitter: @AliHKassim >> >> Skype: abu-jomo >> >> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim >> >> >> >> >> >> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely >> mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the >> organizations that I work with. >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 9:46 AM Leo S wrote: >> >>> Very funny, it looks like a political game >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 2:33 PM Noah wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 6:43 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < >>>> community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:35, Omo Oaiya wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ? >>>>> >>>>> On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite >>>>> persuasively that >>>>> there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa >>>>> on Cloud >>>>> on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand. I personally >>>>> have >>>>> no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I >>>>> personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that >>>>> relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance. But to >>>>> try >>>>> to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of >>>>> the >>>>> clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous. It is silly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I did not deny that a relationship exists. I pointed out that there is >>>>> no evidence presented to indicate that it is anything more than >>>>> customer/supplier. >>>>> >>>> >>>> In the last board elections where Elkins defeated Paul Wolner, there >>>> were multiple resource members who received phone calls from HongKong >>>> asking them to vote for Wolner. >>>> >>>> Check the archives. >>>> >>>> Noah >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Wed Jul 28 15:17:42 2021 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 15:17:42 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> , Message-ID: Code of conduct - this message implies corruption that is unproved on the part of both CI and previous management. Can we stop with the unjustified attacks and mud slinging please Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Leo S Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 14:45 To: Ali Hussein Cc: Community Discuss Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case Yes I agree It's just that the management of AFRINIC may have changed with previous years. Although some people in the community questioned Cloud Innovation Ltd in the past few years, AFRINIC did not take any action, but now it has taken action. Maybe Cloud Innovation Ltd did not use their money well. Lead to the current ending, Cloud Innovation Ltd losing ground in management team of AFRINIC On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 5:31 PM Ali Hussein > wrote: It is a political game. Hence my post of yesterday. This is a wider conversation about African Internet Resources and who controls them. Let's be very careful not to be looped into non-issues. The MOST IMPORTANT conversation we MUST have is this:- 1. Who controls AFRINIC today. 2. Who will control it tomorrow. 3. Who is out to ensure that Board Members are aligned to which grouping. 4. Who are these groups? 5. Corporate Governance is a major issue here. Whilst I believe this is being handled and that it's a process we must be clear going forward that shedding light on all matters is super-critical. Light has a way of removing all crawling things out of the shadows and into the light. The Board's Fiduciary Responsibility has never been more important than ever. Ali Hussein Digital Transformation Tel: +254 713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with. On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 9:46 AM Leo S > wrote: Very funny, it looks like a political game On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 2:33 PM Noah > wrote: On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 6:43 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:35, Omo Oaiya > wrote: ? On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite persuasively that there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa on Cloud on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand. I personally have no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance. But to try to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of the clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous. It is silly. I did not deny that a relationship exists. I pointed out that there is no evidence presented to indicate that it is anything more than customer/supplier. In the last board elections where Elkins defeated Paul Wolner, there were multiple resource members who received phone calls from HongKong asking them to vote for Wolner. Check the archives. Noah _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Wed Jul 28 15:18:26 2021 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 15:18:26 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> , Message-ID: Code of conduct call again - this mail is blatantly libelous Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: DANIEL NANGHAKA Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 17:06 To: Leo S Cc: Community Discuss Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case I will be so kind to say that following the various threads, I do not want to make an unnecessary judgement but instead of building on the Internet Development in Africa, Cloud Innovation Ltd came to Kill, Steal and Destroy AFRINIC. On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 at 14:44, Leo S > wrote: Yes I agree It's just that the management of AFRINIC may have changed with previous years. Although some people in the community questioned Cloud Innovation Ltd in the past few years, AFRINIC did not take any action, but now it has taken action. Maybe Cloud Innovation Ltd did not use their money well. Lead to the current ending, Cloud Innovation Ltd losing ground in management team of AFRINIC On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 5:31 PM Ali Hussein > wrote: It is a political game. Hence my post of yesterday. This is a wider conversation about African Internet Resources and who controls them. Let's be very careful not to be looped into non-issues. The MOST IMPORTANT conversation we MUST have is this:- 1. Who controls AFRINIC today. 2. Who will control it tomorrow. 3. Who is out to ensure that Board Members are aligned to which grouping. 4. Who are these groups? 5. Corporate Governance is a major issue here. Whilst I believe this is being handled and that it's a process we must be clear going forward that shedding light on all matters is super-critical. Light has a way of removing all crawling things out of the shadows and into the light. The Board's Fiduciary Responsibility has never been more important than ever. Ali Hussein Digital Transformation Tel: +254 713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with. On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 9:46 AM Leo S > wrote: Very funny, it looks like a political game On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 2:33 PM Noah > wrote: On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 6:43 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:35, Omo Oaiya > wrote: ? On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite persuasively that there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa on Cloud on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand. I personally have no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance. But to try to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of the clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous. It is silly. I did not deny that a relationship exists. I pointed out that there is no evidence presented to indicate that it is anything more than customer/supplier. In the last board elections where Elkins defeated Paul Wolner, there were multiple resource members who received phone calls from HongKong asking them to vote for Wolner. Check the archives. Noah _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Wed Jul 28 15:31:03 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 18:31:03 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 6:23 PM Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > Code of conduct call again - this mail is blatantly libelous > How exactly? Is AFRINIC a warm-body? Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From comms at afrinic.net Wed Jul 28 16:21:42 2021 From: comms at afrinic.net (AFRINIC Communication) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 20:21:42 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> Message-ID: <0ACF8769-34AD-40A3-B7EF-50176119E59F@afrinic.net> Mr Leo, Please refrain from making a personal attack on this mailing list. Please consider this email as a first warning. We shall be obliged to moderate your emails should you continue with such comments. Regards, AFRINIC Communications > On 28 Jul 2021, at 15:43, Leo S wrote: > > Yes I agree It's just that the management of AFRINIC may have changed with previous years. > Although some people in the community questioned Cloud Innovation Ltd in the past few years, AFRINIC did not take any action, but now it has taken action. Maybe Cloud Innovation Ltd did not use their money well. Lead to the current ending, Cloud Innovation Ltd losing ground in management team of AFRINIC > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 5:31 PM Ali Hussein > wrote: > It is a political game. Hence my post of yesterday. This is a wider conversation about African Internet Resources and who controls them. Let's be very careful not to be looped into non-issues. The MOST IMPORTANT conversation we MUST have is this:- > > 1. Who controls AFRINIC today. > 2. Who will control it tomorrow. > 3. Who is out to ensure that Board Members are aligned to which grouping. > 4. Who are these groups? > 5. Corporate Governance is a major issue here. Whilst I believe this is being handled and that it's a process we must be clear going forward that shedding light on all matters is super-critical. Light has a way of removing all crawling things out of the shadows and into the light. The Board's Fiduciary Responsibility has never been more important than ever. > > Ali Hussein > Digital Transformation > > Tel: +254 713 601113 > Twitter: @AliHKassim > Skype: abu-jomo > LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim > > > > Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with. > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 9:46 AM Leo S > wrote: > Very funny, it looks like a political game > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 2:33 PM Noah > wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 6:43 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: > > >> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:35, Omo Oaiya > wrote: >> >> ? >> >>> On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: >>> >>> >>> In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite persuasively that >>> there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa on Cloud >>> on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand. I personally have >>> no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I >>> personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that >>> relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance. But to try >>> to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of the >>> clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous. It is silly. >> > I did not deny that a relationship exists. I pointed out that there is no evidence presented to indicate that it is anything more than customer/supplier. > > In the last board elections where Elkins defeated Paul Wolner, there were multiple resource members who received phone calls from HongKong asking them to vote for Wolner. > > Check the archives. > > Noah > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leoso at afcast.com Wed Jul 28 17:17:52 2021 From: leoso at afcast.com (Leo S) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 01:17:52 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <0ACF8769-34AD-40A3-B7EF-50176119E59F@afrinic.net> References: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> <0ACF8769-34AD-40A3-B7EF-50176119E59F@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Thanks I will be back in my life and will not waste time here. On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:21 AM AFRINIC Communication wrote: > Mr Leo, > > Please refrain from making a personal attack on this mailing list. > > Please consider this email as a first warning. > > We shall be obliged to moderate your emails should you continue with such > comments. > > Regards, > > AFRINIC Communications > > On 28 Jul 2021, at 15:43, Leo S wrote: > > Yes I agree It's just that the management of AFRINIC may have changed with > previous years. > Although some people in the community questioned Cloud Innovation Ltd in > the past few years, AFRINIC did not take any action, but now it has taken > action. Maybe Cloud Innovation Ltd did not use their money well. Lead to > the current ending, Cloud Innovation Ltd losing ground in management team > of AFRINIC > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 5:31 PM Ali Hussein wrote: > >> It is a political game. Hence my post of yesterday. This is a wider >> conversation about African Internet Resources and who controls them. Let's >> be very careful not to be looped into non-issues. The MOST IMPORTANT >> conversation we MUST have is this:- >> >> 1. Who controls AFRINIC today. >> 2. Who will control it tomorrow. >> 3. Who is out to ensure that Board Members are aligned to which grouping. >> 4. Who are these groups? >> 5. Corporate Governance is a major issue here. Whilst I believe this is >> being handled and that it's a process we must be clear going forward that >> shedding light on all matters is super-critical. Light has a way of >> removing all crawling things out of the shadows and into the light. The >> Board's Fiduciary Responsibility has never been more important than ever. >> >> *Ali Hussein* >> Digital Transformation >> >> Tel: +254 713 601113 >> Twitter: @AliHKassim >> Skype: abu-jomo >> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim >> >> >> >> >> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely >> mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the >> organizations that I work with. >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 9:46 AM Leo S wrote: >> >>> Very funny, it looks like a political game >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 2:33 PM Noah wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 6:43 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < >>>> community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:35, Omo Oaiya wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ? >>>>> >>>>> On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite >>>>> persuasively that >>>>> there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa >>>>> on Cloud >>>>> on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand. I personally >>>>> have >>>>> no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I >>>>> personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that >>>>> relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance. But to >>>>> try >>>>> to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of >>>>> the >>>>> clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous. It is silly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I did not deny that a relationship exists. I pointed out that there is >>>>> no evidence presented to indicate that it is anything more than >>>>> customer/supplier. >>>>> >>>> >>>> In the last board elections where Elkins defeated Paul Wolner, there >>>> were multiple resource members who received phone calls from HongKong >>>> asking them to vote for Wolner. >>>> >>>> Check the archives. >>>> >>>> Noah >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eddy at afrinic.net Wed Jul 28 17:23:38 2021 From: eddy at afrinic.net (Eddy Kayihura) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 21:23:38 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Correction to my previous email References: <335F3CB6-5AE6-4966-ABA0-7D5679AE488F@afrinic.net> Message-ID: <98AD8E29-D983-490D-98A4-50AD25517C58@afrinic.net> Dear Colleagues, Please see below the correction message that I have sent to members. -- Kind Regards Eddy Kayihura M. Chief Executive Officer AFRINIC Ltd. ==== t: +230 403 51 00 | tt: @afrinic | https://www.afrinic.net | youtube.com/afrinicmedia ___________________________ Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Eddy Kayihura > Subject: [members-discuss] Correction to my previous email > Date: 28 July 2021 at 21:20:53 GMT+4 > To: AfriNIC Discuss > > > Dear Members, > > In times of uncertainty and misinformation even the smallest detail can be used to confuse and disrupt even further. > > I do not want to contribute to the confusion so allow me to try again to convey a more accurate message. > > Yesterday, while shooting the video with the update on freezing our bank accounts, AFRINIC had not yet received the Judge's Order regarding our application for discharge or variation of the freezing order. > > https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts > > I was only made aware of the Judge's Order minutes before sending out the email. > > https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004338.html > > However, I have failed to mention in my email, for the sake of completeness, that the Judge had declined our prayers and I simply mentioned that the matter has been fixed for the 4th of August for the other parties to communicate their stand. This omission on my part was not in any way intentional. > > > My team and I are working on resolving this whole situation as soon as possible. We are humbled and honored by the huge amount of support we are seeing from our membership that are our partners in building Africa?s digital future. > > I appreciate your kind understanding on the matter. > > Kind Regards, > > Eddy Kayihura > > Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC > > ceo at afrinic.net > ???????? > > Chers Coll?gues, > > En ces temps d'incertitude et de d?sinformation, m?me le plus petit d?tail peut ?tre utilis? pour semer la confusion et perturber encore plus. > > Je ne veux pas contribuer ? la confusion, alors permettez-moi d'essayer ? nouveau de transmettre un message plus pr?cis. > > Hier, lors du tournage de la vid?o avec la mise ? jour sur le gel de nos comptes bancaires, AFRINIC n'avait pas encore re?u l?Ordre du Juge concernant notre demande de d?charge ou de variation de la saisie arr?t sur les comptes bancaires d?AFRINIC. > > https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts > > J?ai pris connaissance de l?Ordre du Juge quelques minutes avant d?envoyer l?email. > > https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004338.html > > Toutefois, j'ai omis de mentionner dans mon courriel, par souci de pr?cision, que le juge avait rejet? nos demandes et j'ai simplement mentionn? que l'affaire avait ?t? fix?e au 4 ao?t pour que les autres parties puissent communiquer leur position. Cette omission de ma part n'?tait en aucun cas intentionnelle. > > Mon ?quipe et moi-m?me nous employons ? r?soudre cette probl?matique dans les plus brefs d?lais. Nous sommes humbles et honor?s par l'?norme soutien que nous constatons de la part de nos membres qui sont nos partenaires dans la construction de l'avenir num?rique de l'Afrique. > > Je vous remercie de votre compr?hension ? ce sujet. > > Cordialement, > > Eddy Kayihura > > Directeur g?n?ral de l'AFRINIC > > ceo at afrinic.net > > ??????????? > > ????? ??????? > > ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?????????? ??????? ? ???? ??????? ???? ???????? ??????? ???????? ????. > > ?? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???????? ? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???. > > ?????? ? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ??????? ????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ? ?? ???? AFRINIC ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???????. > > https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts > > ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????????. > > https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004338.html > > ??? ??? ? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ??????????? ? ????? ??? ???????? ? ?? ?????? ??? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ?? (?????) ??????? ?????? ??????? ?? ??????. ??? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ?? ???????. > > > ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????. ???? ???? ???????? ???????? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ???????? ?????? ????????. > > ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??????? > ????? > ???? ???????? > > ?????? ???????? ? AFRINIC > > ceo at afrinic.net > > ???????????.. > > Caros Membros, > > Em tempos de incerteza e desinforma??o, at? o mais pequeno detalhe pode ser utilizado para confundir e perturbar ainda mais. > > N?o quero contribuir para a confus?o, por isso permitam-me que tente novamente transmitir uma mensagem mais precisa. > > Ontem, enquanto filmava o v?deo com a actualiza??o sobre o congelamento das nossas contas banc?rias, a AFRINIC ainda n?o tinha recebido a Ordem do Juiz relativamente ao nosso pedido de quita??o ou varia??o da ordem de congelamento. > > https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts > > S? fui informado da Ordem do Juiz minutos antes de enviar o e-mail. > > https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004338.html > > No entanto, n?o mencionei no meu e-mail, por uma quest?o de exaustividade, que o Juiz tinha recusado as nossas ora??es e mencionei simplesmente que o assunto tinha sido fixado para 4 de Agosto para que as outras partes comunicassem a sua posi??o. Esta omiss?o da minha parte n?o foi, de forma alguma, intencional. > > > A minha equipa e eu estamos a trabalhar na resolu??o de toda esta situa??o o mais rapidamente poss?vel. Sentimo-nos humilhados e honrados pelo enorme apoio que estamos a receber dos nossos membros que s?o nossos parceiros na constru??o do futuro digital de ?frica. > > Agrade?o a vossa am?vel compreens?o sobre o assunto > Cumprimentos > Eddy Kayihura > > Chefe do Executivo, AFRINIC > > ceo at afrinic.net > > -- > > Kind Regards > > Eddy Kayihura M. > Chief Executive Officer > AFRINIC Ltd. > ==== > t: +230 403 51 00 | tt: @afrinic | https://www.afrinic.net | youtube.com/afrinicmedia > ___________________________ > > Vision: ?A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa? > Mission: ?To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment? > Values: EPIC (? Excellence ? Passion ? Integrity ? Community Driven) > > > ******************************************************************************************************************* > This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. > > ******************************************************************************************************************* > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dndannang at gmail.com Wed Jul 28 17:24:52 2021 From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 20:24:52 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> <0ACF8769-34AD-40A3-B7EF-50176119E59F@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Leo, There is no wasting time here. This is a genuine cause. I appreciate your support. Daniel On Wed, Jul 28, 2021, 8:19 PM Leo S wrote: > Thanks > I will be back in my life and will not waste time here. > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:21 AM AFRINIC Communication > wrote: > >> Mr Leo, >> >> Please refrain from making a personal attack on this mailing list. >> >> Please consider this email as a first warning. >> >> We shall be obliged to moderate your emails should you continue with such >> comments. >> >> Regards, >> >> AFRINIC Communications >> >> On 28 Jul 2021, at 15:43, Leo S wrote: >> >> Yes I agree It's just that the management of AFRINIC may have changed >> with previous years. >> Although some people in the community questioned Cloud Innovation Ltd in >> the past few years, AFRINIC did not take any action, but now it has taken >> action. Maybe Cloud Innovation Ltd did not use their money well. Lead to >> the current ending, Cloud Innovation Ltd losing ground in management team >> of AFRINIC >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 5:31 PM Ali Hussein wrote: >> >>> It is a political game. Hence my post of yesterday. This is a wider >>> conversation about African Internet Resources and who controls them. Let's >>> be very careful not to be looped into non-issues. The MOST IMPORTANT >>> conversation we MUST have is this:- >>> >>> 1. Who controls AFRINIC today. >>> 2. Who will control it tomorrow. >>> 3. Who is out to ensure that Board Members are aligned to which >>> grouping. >>> 4. Who are these groups? >>> 5. Corporate Governance is a major issue here. Whilst I believe this is >>> being handled and that it's a process we must be clear going forward that >>> shedding light on all matters is super-critical. Light has a way of >>> removing all crawling things out of the shadows and into the light. The >>> Board's Fiduciary Responsibility has never been more important than ever. >>> >>> *Ali Hussein* >>> Digital Transformation >>> >>> Tel: +254 713 601113 >>> Twitter: @AliHKassim >>> Skype: abu-jomo >>> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely >>> mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the >>> organizations that I work with. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 9:46 AM Leo S wrote: >>> >>>> Very funny, it looks like a political game >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 2:33 PM Noah wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 6:43 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < >>>>> community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:35, Omo Oaiya wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> ? >>>>>> >>>>>> On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite >>>>>> persuasively that >>>>>> there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa >>>>>> on Cloud >>>>>> on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand. I personally >>>>>> have >>>>>> no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I >>>>>> personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that >>>>>> relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance. But to >>>>>> try >>>>>> to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of >>>>>> the >>>>>> clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous. It is silly. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I did not deny that a relationship exists. I pointed out that there >>>>>> is no evidence presented to indicate that it is anything more than >>>>>> customer/supplier. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In the last board elections where Elkins defeated Paul Wolner, there >>>>> were multiple resource members who received phone calls from HongKong >>>>> asking them to vote for Wolner. >>>>> >>>>> Check the archives. >>>>> >>>>> Noah >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Wed Jul 28 21:09:51 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 00:09:51 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> <0ACF8769-34AD-40A3-B7EF-50176119E59F@afrinic.net> Message-ID: Hi Leo Please stay on and continue to participate. Noah On Wed, 28 Jul 2021, 20:23 Leo S, wrote: > Thanks > I will be back in my life and will not waste time here. > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:21 AM AFRINIC Communication > wrote: > >> Mr Leo, >> >> Please refrain from making a personal attack on this mailing list. >> >> Please consider this email as a first warning. >> >> We shall be obliged to moderate your emails should you continue with such >> comments. >> >> Regards, >> >> AFRINIC Communications >> >> On 28 Jul 2021, at 15:43, Leo S wrote: >> >> Yes I agree It's just that the management of AFRINIC may have changed >> with previous years. >> Although some people in the community questioned Cloud Innovation Ltd in >> the past few years, AFRINIC did not take any action, but now it has taken >> action. Maybe Cloud Innovation Ltd did not use their money well. Lead to >> the current ending, Cloud Innovation Ltd losing ground in management team >> of AFRINIC >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 5:31 PM Ali Hussein wrote: >> >>> It is a political game. Hence my post of yesterday. This is a wider >>> conversation about African Internet Resources and who controls them. Let's >>> be very careful not to be looped into non-issues. The MOST IMPORTANT >>> conversation we MUST have is this:- >>> >>> 1. Who controls AFRINIC today. >>> 2. Who will control it tomorrow. >>> 3. Who is out to ensure that Board Members are aligned to which >>> grouping. >>> 4. Who are these groups? >>> 5. Corporate Governance is a major issue here. Whilst I believe this is >>> being handled and that it's a process we must be clear going forward that >>> shedding light on all matters is super-critical. Light has a way of >>> removing all crawling things out of the shadows and into the light. The >>> Board's Fiduciary Responsibility has never been more important than ever. >>> >>> *Ali Hussein* >>> Digital Transformation >>> >>> Tel: +254 713 601113 >>> Twitter: @AliHKassim >>> Skype: abu-jomo >>> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely >>> mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the >>> organizations that I work with. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 9:46 AM Leo S wrote: >>> >>>> Very funny, it looks like a political game >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 2:33 PM Noah wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 6:43 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < >>>>> community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:35, Omo Oaiya wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> ? >>>>>> >>>>>> On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite >>>>>> persuasively that >>>>>> there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa >>>>>> on Cloud >>>>>> on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand. I personally >>>>>> have >>>>>> no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I >>>>>> personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that >>>>>> relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance. But to >>>>>> try >>>>>> to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of >>>>>> the >>>>>> clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous. It is silly. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I did not deny that a relationship exists. I pointed out that there >>>>>> is no evidence presented to indicate that it is anything more than >>>>>> customer/supplier. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In the last board elections where Elkins defeated Paul Wolner, there >>>>> were multiple resource members who received phone calls from HongKong >>>>> asking them to vote for Wolner. >>>>> >>>>> Check the archives. >>>>> >>>>> Noah >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Wed Jul 28 21:25:30 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:25:30 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <46361.1627507530@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , Owen DeLong wrote: >We have already agreed that the original justification is no longer relevant What is this "we" Owen? Is that the royal "we"? Because *I* certainly have no recollection that *I* ever agreed that the original justification that was used as the basis for Cloud Innovation being granted two /11 blocks and two /12 blocks is "no longer relevant". And given what we now know... largely due to my work... about all of the funny business that occurred at AFRINIC between, say, 2010 and February, 2015... the same time period when much or all of "The Great AFRINIC Heist" happened... AND given the absolute and complete lack of public information about how Cloud Innovation's allocations came to be in the first place, I, for one, remain deeply curious about everything related to how those allocations came to be made, back in 2013 and 2014. The only scrap of information that has, so far, been made pubic about that decision process is that the decision(s) to grant Cloud Innovation two /11 blocks and two /12 blocks were NOT made by the Board at the time, but rather by "staff". (Well, anyway, there were some public mailing list messages to that effect at the time.) Regards, rfg From noah at neo.co.tz Wed Jul 28 21:40:02 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 00:40:02 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 8:28 AM Owen DeLong wrote: > On Jul 26, 2021, at 04:01 , Noah wrote: > > On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, 19:32 Leo S, wrote: > >> >> The current situation poses risks to users who rent their IP addresses. I >> think the problem itself is AFRINIC's own problem. Who allocated 7 million >> addresses to them? As far as I know, even providers like OVH do not have 7 >> million IP addresses. And a paper company can get 7 million IP addresses. >> > > > This part of the world, we call them brief case companies. > > So while checking some statistics with a good friend over the weekend, we > just noted that actually Cloud Innovation has more IPv4 addresses than East > African countries of Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda and I won't even bother > posting for Rwanda, Burundi and South Sudan because its sad. > > > It also serves more end users > You mean e.g........ 1. AS133199 = SonderCloud Limited, *Country of Origin:Hong Kong*https://bgp.he.net/AS133199#_prefixes 2. AS141374 Brother Internet Technologies Co.,Ltd *Country of Origin:United States*https://bgp.he.net/AS141374#_prefixes 3. AS134121 Rainbow network limited *Country of Origin:Hong Kong*https://bgp.he.net/AS134121#_prefixes 4. AS62587 QFISP LLC *Country of Origin:United States*https://bgp.he.net/AS62587#_prefixes 5. AS132839 POWER LINE DATACENTER *Country of Origin:Hong Kong*https://bgp.he.net/AS132839#_prefixes 6, AS63888 TISP LIMITED *Country of Origin:Hong Kong*https://bgp.he.net/AS63888#_prefixes 7.AS136038 HDTIDC LIMITED *Country of Origin:Hong Kong*https://bgp.he.net/AS136038#_prefixes 8. AS64021 Network-Transit *Country of Origin:China*https://bgp.he.net/AS64021#_prefixes 9. AS134548 DXTL Tseung Kwan O Service *Country of Origin:Hong Kong*https://bgp.he.net/AS134548#_prefixes 10. AS137951 Clayer Limited *Country of Origin:Hong Kong * https://bgp.he.net/net/154.86.0.0/16 https://bgp.he.net/AS137951#_prefixes 11. AS137443 Anchnet Asia Limited *Country of Origin:Hong Kong*https://bgp.he.net/AS137443#_prefixes 12. AS40676 Psychz Networks *Country of Origin:United States*https://bgp.he.net/AS40676#_prefixes 13. AS40065 CNSERVERS LLC *Country of Origin:United States*https://bgp.he.net/AS40065#_prefixes 14. AS55330 AFGHANTELECOM GOVERNMENT COMMUNICATION NETWORK *Country of Origin:Afghanistan*https://bgp.he.net/AS55330#_prefixes 15. AS140107 CITIS CLOUD GROUP LIMITED *Country of Origin:Hong Kong*https://bgp.he.net/AS140107#_prefixes 16. AS13768 Aptum Technologies *Country of Origin:Canadahttps://bgp.he.net/AS13768#_prefixes * 17. AS132203 Tencent Building, Kejizhongyi Avenue *Country of Origin:China*https://bgp.he.net/AS132203#_prefixes 18. AS35916 MULTACOM CORPORATION and this USA company is the one using bigger blocks leased to them by Cloud Innovation Ltd. *Country of Origin:United States*https://bgp.he.net/AS35916#_prefixes 19. AS262167 Redcol S.A. *Country of Origin: Chile in South America* https://bgp.he.net/AS262167#_prefixes https://bgp.he.net/net/45.199.159.0/24 What is your point? > IPv4 Addresses Allocation to Cloud Innovation Ltd are being originated by various ISPs around the world beyond AFRICA some of whom are below from China, USA, HongKong, Chile etc and other locations based on each ASN. AS132203 AS13768 AS262167 AS35916 AS140107 AS55330 AS40065 AS40676 AS137443 AS137951 AS134548 AS64021 AS136038 AS63888 AS132839 AS62587 AS134121 AS141374 AS133199 And the only known AFRICAN AS originating CIL prefixes in Africa is *Africa On Cloud's* *AS328608* https://bgp.he.net/AS328608#_prefixes And that is my point!..... so much so for a unique routing ? Noah #*Insistence* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Wed Jul 28 21:43:14 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 23:43:14 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <46361.1627507530@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <46361.1627507530@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: Ronald is very right. How that can be possible? Of course, the original justification is *extremely relevant*. Was it done properly and in good faith? Was it properly checked by the staff? Was the relevant staff doing correctly his/her job? Is that justification still valid, or if the original intended usage has been changed, has that been reviewed with the staff to ensure compliance with policies and rules? I could understand that you could change the usage of a small % and it is just fine, but if it is the majority of the allocation, the original documented purpose may not be longer valid. If I said "I'm going to setup a network connecting 8 million users in a, b and c African countries, please allocate 9 million addresses to me". If then I change my business plan or actually *never* setup this network, the original documentation provided to justify the allocation, is not valid. Otherwise, every AFRINIC member could do the same, just to circumvent the rules! Note that my comments are *in general* not just for CI or whatever is the AFRINIC member name or the number of allocated/assigned addresses. We need to be crystal clear and transparent: If we want that the documented purposes for any member can change without a re-check, then it is open to all kind of cheating and I don't think the community adopted such rules. To allow that, we will need to agree, via the PDP on that. ?El 28/7/21 23:31, "Ronald F. Guilmette" escribi?: In message , Owen DeLong wrote: >We have already agreed that the original justification is no longer relevant What is this "we" Owen? Is that the royal "we"? Because *I* certainly have no recollection that *I* ever agreed that the original justification that was used as the basis for Cloud Innovation being granted two /11 blocks and two /12 blocks is "no longer relevant". And given what we now know... largely due to my work... about all of the funny business that occurred at AFRINIC between, say, 2010 and February, 2015... the same time period when much or all of "The Great AFRINIC Heist" happened... AND given the absolute and complete lack of public information about how Cloud Innovation's allocations came to be in the first place, I, for one, remain deeply curious about everything related to how those allocations came to be made, back in 2013 and 2014. The only scrap of information that has, so far, been made pubic about that decision process is that the decision(s) to grant Cloud Innovation two /11 blocks and two /12 blocks were NOT made by the Board at the time, but rather by "staff". (Well, anyway, there were some public mailing list messages to that effect at the time.) Regards, rfg _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From rfg at tristatelogic.com Wed Jul 28 22:37:50 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 15:37:50 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <46680.1627511870@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , Noah wrote: >In the last board elections where Elkins defeated Paul Wolner, there were >multiple resource members who received phone calls from HongKong asking >them to vote for Wolner. In my view, these allegations were never proven, and even if they were, so what? Unless such "electioneering" is performed in a mostly automated fashion... in which case they might well be considered to be spammish... there's nothing illegal, immoral, or even unethical about making calls and asking people to vote for one's preferred candidates for some elected office. (And indeed, we here in the U.S. are routinely inundated with such calls on a daily basis, starting generally about two months before each local or national election.) Regards, rfg From hjul.paul at gmail.com Wed Jul 28 22:51:17 2021 From: hjul.paul at gmail.com (Paul Hjul) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 00:51:17 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Correction to my previous email Message-ID: > > Dear Members, > In times of uncertainty and misinformation even the smallest detail can be > used to confuse and disrupt even further. > I do not want to contribute to the confusion so allow me to try again to > convey a more accurate message. > Yesterday, while shooting the video with the update on freezing our bank > accounts, AFRINIC had not yet received the Judge's Order regarding our > application for discharge or variation of the freezing order. > > https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts > < > https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts > > > I was only made aware of the Judge's Order minutes before sending out the > email. > https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004338.html > < > https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004338.html > > > However, I have failed to mention in my email, for the sake of > completeness, that the Judge had declined our prayers and I simply > mentioned that the matter has been fixed for the 4th of August for the > other parties to communicate their stand. This omission on my part was not > in any way intentional. > > My team and I are working on resolving this whole situation as soon as > possible. We are humbled and honored by the huge amount of support we are > seeing from our membership that are our partners in building Africa?s > digital future. > I appreciate your kind understanding on the matter. > Kind Regards, > Eddy Kayihura > Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC > ceo at afrinic.net > at afrinic.net > > This is greatly appreciated and in all honesty I fear that it is profoundly unjust that a CEO of an organization the size of Afrinic and with the need to have a "legal department" is put into the position in which the CEO is being put into. The misstep is clearly unintentional and completely understandable. This is especially because of matters around sub iudice rules and undoubtedly many of the issues which give rise to legal proceedings predate the term of office of the inumbent CEO. I have little fear in suggesting that at least some of the mess has been created as a result of the organization acting terribly daftly - either as to the merits of a position or in not grasping commercial realities and litigation strategy that would follow. My worry is that the community is not aligning itself with the reality of the ramifications of relying on the stability fund: https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/ I find it difficult to understand why the RIRs which have pledged considerably more to the stability fund will be satisfied with the need to release funds to preserve Afrinic persisting in litigation with members that is seeped in a regionalist ideological overlay. The fact that the stability fund is not to allow an RIR to do as it pleases but rather to ensure global stability means that a fundamental string of promoting a global open Internet is inevitable. If anything the best utilization of funds coming from RIPE (primarily - as RIPE is the most committed to the stability) would be on policy development and I anticipate that if emergency measures to stabilize Afrinic take the form of policy development suggestions from RIPE that this will immediately become a political taboo. Hopefully the Board and management will quickly make it very clear that partnership in "building Africa's digital future" means collaboration of a global nature. It means devising consensus and action that is aimed at promoting a true digital future and distancing from the deleterious xenophobic and regionalist attitudes and discourse that flares up. The purpose of RIRs is to promote the development of the global Internet within regions, it is not to carve up the Internet into regions. The fund is clear that the RIR needs to resolve the problems causing the crisis in order to use the fund: > It is expected that governing body of the affected RIR will take necessary > and relevant decisions to resolve problems that lead the crisis. This brings me back to the fact that the best way to manage the risk which is plaguing the organization is to get as much dispute resolution handled outside of potentially organization shattering litigation. The membership simply do not know how many litigants there are knocking at Afrinic but it is quite clear that there are several cases that need to be handled appropriately and to date the organization has crafted an environment favouring a litigious approach. If the composition of the Board is what is making it feasible for a litigant to convince a Court that the organization acted with an ulterior motive then the CFOs of the other RIRs ought to want the Board to be reconstituted. It appears that the "assisted review" process is giving rise to much of the crisis and so I suspect RIPE members familiar with the situation in Afrinic will charge that organization to require that RIPE take charge of that process before opening up the wallet. While support from the membership is vital to receive assistance if the fund is to be relied on the buy-in in "project Afrinic" is going to be needed. I have difficulty seeing this support if the organization does not by the 4th August have a convincing strategy for ensuring that those disputes which are acting as a millstone around the organization are handled in an orderly manner which doesn't undermine the stability of the organization. This means that accountability of Afrinic's governing bodies - particularly it's Board - is paramount. After all for accountability the NRO is emphatic that Afrinic is bound to the laws of Mauritius (and thus her courts, so the organization cannot be perceived or be playing chicken with the courts): > Each RIR is accountable to its membership and bound by the laws of the > jurisdiction in which it operates. (https://www.nro.net/accountability/) Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amelnaud at gmail.com Wed Jul 28 23:57:17 2021 From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 23:57:17 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <46361.1627507530@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <46361.1627507530@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: Le mer. 28 juil. 2021 ? 21:27, Ronald F. Guilmette a ?crit : > In message , > Owen DeLong wrote: > > >We have already agreed that the original justification is no longer > relevant > > What is this "we" Owen? Is that the royal "we"? Because *I* certainly > have no recollection that *I* ever agreed that the original justification > that was used as the basis for Cloud Innovation being granted two /11 > blocks and two /12 blocks is "no longer relevant". > Hummmm c'est grave, tr?s grave m?me. On appelle ?a de la tricherie, ou fausses d?clarations (passible du retrait automatique des ressources allou?es, c'est ?crit dans le RSA). Si le besoin initial ? chang?, il est aussi ?crit que les ressources doivent ?tre retourner ? Afrinic. > > And given what we now know... largely due to my work... about all of the > funny business that occurred at AFRINIC between, say, 2010 and February, > 2015... the same time period when much or all of "The Great AFRINIC Heist" > happened... AND given the absolute and complete lack of public information > about how Cloud Innovation's allocations came to be in the first place, > I, for one, remain deeply curious about everything related to how those > allocations came to be made, back in 2013 and 2014. > Oui en effet on se rappelle bien de cette p?riode o? le Board entrait dans le Mico-management d'Afrinic, et jouait quasiment le R?le du CEO, sans que ce dernier ne r?clame son droit, car ce sont eux qui l'ont recrut? face ? un Candidat hors du commun, respect de la communaut? Internet mondiale. Il avait donc peut-?tre peur pour son poste. > The only scrap of information that has, so far, been made pubic about that > decision process is that the decision(s) to grant Cloud Innovation two > /11 blocks and two /12 blocks were NOT made by the Board at the time, > but rather by "staff". (Well, anyway, there were some public mailing > list messages to that effect at the time.) > Je n'en suis pas s?r, m?me si le CEO de cette p?riode, se laissait suppl?anter par le Board. Je pari que le Board a fait valoir son veto pour que cette requ?te passe, avec la complicit? de certains membres du staff, qu'on voyait en ce temps l? participer ? des d?ners organis?s par CI. Ils se connaissent et ont int?r?t ? ce que les int?r?ts d'Afrinic soient bien pr?serv?s actuellement, sinon on va les d?noncer ici pour que tout le monde sache qui ils sont et ce qu'ils ont fait ? notre Afrique (notre chez nous). > > Regards, > rfg > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jul 29 00:39:08 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 17:39:08 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <47128.1627519148@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , DANIEL NANGHAKA wrote: >I will be so kind to say that following the various threads, I do not want >to make an unnecessary judgement but instead of building on the Internet >Development in Africa, Cloud Innovation Ltd came to Kill, Steal and Destroy >AFRINIC. It is not one directional. Both sides in the present conflict appear to have already "gone nuclear". This raises the clear possibility that one or other or perhaps both will ultimately be destroyed. (And perhaps that is all to the good. I honestly don't know.) https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-we-may-be-likened-to-two-scorpions-in-a-bottle-each-capable-of-killing-the-other-but-j-robert-oppenheimer-108-20-14.jpg Regards, rfg From owen at delong.com Thu Jul 29 01:06:02 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 18:06:02 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5525A5C9-0558-46C3-BD72-41F1F569F0DB@delong.com> > On Jul 28, 2021, at 00:49 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote: > > Very good observations Paul. > > My doubt here is if there was sufficient evidence for a ?real disk of dissipation?. I doubt AFRINIC is such kind of organization where the Board can take the risk of doing so without consulting the membership. Otherwise, the Board could be committing presumable illegal actions, which may have criminal personal consequences for each them. AFRINIC?s present assets fall so far short of the judgment and AFRINIC routinely spends so much money per month on a variety of expenses that the ordinary course of AFRINIC business as expected by the members constitutes a risk of dissipation. > I?m not convinced the Court has a good understanding of what is AFRINIC and that if AFRINIC doesn?t have funds to continue operations, the consequences for all the Internet community, not just AFRINIC members, could be generating more damages than what the order is trying to protect. I think the court has a good understanding of the facts and the circumstances of both parties in the litigation. My observation so far is that the court system (except in one extraordinary case) has been quite fair and quite learned regarding the matters at hand. > Court orders must be always well balanced. Indeed. > Regarding the arbitration, I may be wrong, but I don?t recall having seen that in any of the RIRs documents. Definitively it is a good point. To the best of my knowledge, the only RIR with a binding arbitration clause in its RSA is ARIN. I admit I have not recently performed detailed research on the matter, so my information may be out of date. Certainly it is not currently part of the AFRINIC RSA and was not part of the RSA signed in 2013. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Thu Jul 29 01:33:39 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 18:33:39 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Correction to my previous email In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jul 28, 2021, at 15:51 , Paul Hjul wrote: > > Dear Members, > In times of uncertainty and misinformation even the smallest detail can be used to confuse and disrupt even further. > I do not want to contribute to the confusion so allow me to try again to convey a more accurate message. > Yesterday, while shooting the video with the update on freezing our bank accounts, AFRINIC had not yet received the Judge's Order regarding our application for discharge or variation of the freezing order. > https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts > > I was only made aware of the Judge's Order minutes before sending out the email. > https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004338.html > > However, I have failed to mention in my email, for the sake of completeness, that the Judge had declined our prayers and I simply mentioned that the matter has been fixed for the 4th of August for the other parties to communicate their stand. This omission on my part was not in any way intentional. > > My team and I are working on resolving this whole situation as soon as possible. We are humbled and honored by the huge amount of support we are seeing from our membership that are our partners in building Africa?s digital future. > I appreciate your kind understanding on the matter. > Kind Regards, > Eddy Kayihura > Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC > ceo at afrinic.net > > > This is greatly appreciated and in all honesty I fear that it is profoundly unjust that a CEO of an organization the size of Afrinic and with the need to have a "legal department" is put into the position in which the CEO is being put into. The misstep is clearly unintentional and completely understandable. This is especially because of matters around sub iudice rules and undoubtedly many of the issues which give rise to legal proceedings predate the term of office of the inumbent CEO. I have little fear in suggesting that at least some of the mess has been created as a result of the organization acting terribly daftly - either as to the merits of a position or in not grasping commercial realities and litigation strategy that would follow. I too would like to add that I respect and appreciate Eddy?s comments regarding his omission. I do not doubt the legitimacy of his claim that the omission was accidental in nature and the result of a rush to get communications out. > My worry is that the community is not aligning itself with the reality of the ramifications of relying on the stability fund: https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/ So far, we have no indication that the stability fund has actually agreed to support AFRINIC (requires unanimous consent of all 5 RIR CEOs), nor do we have any confirmation that this is the alleged alternative source of funding. Indeed, AFRINIC has been quite opaque about where these alternate funds are coming from, possibly because they are concerned about their secret stash of cash also getting attached. I?ll leave it to AFRINIC to choose their desired level of financial transparency here and to the members to decide what they consider acceptable in this regard. > I find it difficult to understand why the RIRs which have pledged considerably more to the stability fund will be satisfied with the need to release funds to preserve Afrinic persisting in litigation with members that is seeped in a regionalist ideological overlay. The fact that the stability fund is not to allow an RIR to do as it pleases but rather to ensure global stability means that a fundamental string of promoting a global open Internet is inevitable. > > If anything the best utilization of funds coming from RIPE (primarily - as RIPE is the most committed to the stability) would be on policy development and I anticipate that if emergency measures to stabilize Afrinic take the form of policy development suggestions from RIPE that this will immediately become a political taboo. Hopefully the Board and management will quickly make it very clear that partnership in "building Africa's digital future" means collaboration of a global nature. It means devising consensus and action that is aimed at promoting a true digital future and distancing from the deleterious xenophobic and regionalist attitudes and discourse that flares up. The purpose of RIRs is to promote the development of the global Internet within regions, it is not to carve up the Internet into regions. Very well said, Paul. > The fund is clear that the RIR needs to resolve the problems causing the crisis in order to use the fund: > It is expected that governing body of the affected RIR will take necessary and relevant decisions to resolve problems that lead the crisis. > > This brings me back to the fact that the best way to manage the risk which is plaguing the organization is to get as much dispute resolution handled outside of potentially organization shattering litigation. The membership simply do not know how many litigants there are knocking at Afrinic but it is quite clear that there are several cases that need to be handled appropriately and to date the organization has crafted an environment favouring a litigious approach. If the composition of the Board is what is making it feasible for a litigant to convince a Court that the organization acted with an ulterior motive then the CFOs of the other RIRs ought to want the Board to be reconstituted. It appears that the "assisted review" process is giving rise to much of the crisis and so I suspect RIPE members familiar with the situation in Afrinic will charge that organization to require that RIPE take charge of that process before opening up the wallet. > > While support from the membership is vital to receive assistance if the fund is to be relied on the buy-in in "project Afrinic" is going to be needed. I have difficulty seeing this support if the organization does not by the 4th August have a convincing strategy for ensuring that those disputes which are acting as a millstone around the organization are handled in an orderly manner which doesn't undermine the stability of the organization. This means that accountability of Afrinic's governing bodies - particularly it's Board - is paramount. After all for accountability the NRO is emphatic that Afrinic is bound to the laws of Mauritius (and thus her courts, so the organization cannot be perceived or be playing chicken with the courts): > Each RIR is accountable to its membership and bound by the laws of the jurisdiction in which it operates. > (https://www.nro.net/accountability/ ) Here here! Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Thu Jul 29 01:36:56 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 18:36:56 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <46361.1627507530@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <46361.1627507530@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 28, 2021, at 14:25 , Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > In message , > Owen DeLong wrote: > >> We have already agreed that the original justification is no longer relevant > > What is this "we" Owen? Is that the royal "we"? Because *I* certainly > have no recollection that *I* ever agreed that the original justification > that was used as the basis for Cloud Innovation being granted two /11 > blocks and two /12 blocks is "no longer relevant". We, as in Cloud Innovation. > And given what we now know... largely due to my work... about all of the > funny business that occurred at AFRINIC between, say, 2010 and February, > 2015... the same time period when much or all of "The Great AFRINIC Heist" > happened... AND given the absolute and complete lack of public information > about how Cloud Innovation's allocations came to be in the first place, > I, for one, remain deeply curious about everything related to how those > allocations came to be made, back in 2013 and 2014. Cloud Innovation submitted correct and valid justifications under policy which were reviewed not only by staff, but also by the AFRINIC board. The board elected ti have the addresses issued after deliberating the matter. Yes, as is the case with any other resource member, that justification remains confidential. > The only scrap of information that has, so far, been made pubic about that > decision process is that the decision(s) to grant Cloud Innovation two > /11 blocks and two /12 blocks were NOT made by the Board at the time, > but rather by "staff". (Well, anyway, there were some public mailing > list messages to that effect at the time.) Whether the ultimate decision was made by staff or by the board, certainly the board reviewed and weighed in on at least the last two to the best of my knowledge. Owen From owen at delong.com Thu Jul 29 01:42:38 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 18:42:38 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79950C78-32BC-4164-83CB-496B638D7FA5@delong.com> > On Jul 28, 2021, at 14:40 , Noah wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 8:28 AM Owen DeLong > wrote: >> On Jul 26, 2021, at 04:01 , Noah > wrote: >> >> On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, 19:32 Leo S, > wrote: >> >> The current situation poses risks to users who rent their IP addresses. I think the problem itself is AFRINIC's own problem. Who allocated 7 million addresses to them? As far as I know, even providers like OVH do not have 7 million IP addresses. And a paper company can get 7 million IP addresses. >> >> >> This part of the world, we call them brief case companies. >> >> So while checking some statistics with a good friend over the weekend, we just noted that actually Cloud Innovation has more IPv4 addresses than East African countries of Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda and I won't even bother posting for Rwanda, Burundi and South Sudan because its sad. > > It also serves more end users > > You mean e.g........ > > 1. AS133199 = SonderCloud Limited, > Country of Origin:Hong Kong > https://bgp.he.net/AS133199#_prefixes > > ?[snip]... > > 19. AS262167 Redcol S.A. > Country of Origin: Chile in South America > https://bgp.he.net/AS262167#_prefixes > https://bgp.he.net/net/45.199.159.0/24 > Sure, among others that are both within and outside of Africa. This is allowed by current policy, whether you like that fact or not. > What is your point? > > IPv4 Addresses Allocation to Cloud Innovation Ltd are being originated by various ISPs around the world beyond AFRICA some of whom are below from China, USA, HongKong, Chile etc and other locations based on each ASN. > > > AS132203 > AS13768 > AS262167 > AS35916 > AS140107 > AS55330 > AS40065 > AS40676 > AS137443 > AS137951 > AS134548 > AS64021 > AS136038 > AS63888 > AS132839 > AS62587 > AS134121 > AS141374 > AS133199 > > And the only known AFRICAN AS originating CIL prefixes in Africa is Africa On Cloud's > AS328608 > https://bgp.he.net/AS328608#_prefixes Are you sure about that? China Telecom South Africa is (to the best of my knowledge) in Africa. Who cares where they got their ASN? That is just one example. There are others. > And that is my point!..... so much so for a unique routing ? I still don?t understand how your point is relevant. So Long as Cloud Innovation is providing services in Africa, it meets the requirements in the bylaws for membership. There is nothing there about what percentage of the company?s business must be in Africa. There is nothing there about any sort of requirement for connectivity services to be provided with the addresses. There?s nothing there requiring ASNs issued by AFRINIC to announce the prefixes. You keep implying requirements that simply don?t exist. If you have a legitimate complaint about an actual violation of policy, let?s hear it. Otherwise, what is the point of persisting in these exercises? Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amelnaud at gmail.com Thu Jul 29 02:04:35 2021 From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 02:04:35 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Correction to my previous email In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Le mer. 28 juil. 2021 ? 22:54, Paul Hjul a ?crit : > Dear Members, >> In times of uncertainty and misinformation even the smallest detail can >> be used to confuse and disrupt even further. >> I do not want to contribute to the confusion so allow me to try again to >> convey a more accurate message. >> Yesterday, while shooting the video with the update on freezing our bank >> accounts, AFRINIC had not yet received the Judge's Order regarding our >> application for discharge or variation of the freezing order. >> >> https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts >> < >> https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts >> > >> I was only made aware of the Judge's Order minutes before sending out the >> email. >> >> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004338.html >> < >> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004338.html >> > >> However, I have failed to mention in my email, for the sake of >> completeness, that the Judge had declined our prayers and I simply >> mentioned that the matter has been fixed for the 4th of August for the >> other parties to communicate their stand. This omission on my part was not >> in any way intentional. >> >> My team and I are working on resolving this whole situation as soon as >> possible. We are humbled and honored by the huge amount of support we are >> seeing from our membership that are our partners in building Africa?s >> digital future. >> I appreciate your kind understanding on the matter. >> Kind Regards, >> Eddy Kayihura >> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC >> ceo at afrinic.net >> > at afrinic.net >> > > > > This is greatly appreciated and in all honesty I fear that it is > profoundly unjust that a CEO of an organization the size of Afrinic and > with the need to have a "legal department" is put into the position in > which the CEO is being put into. The misstep is clearly unintentional and > completely understandable. This is especially because of matters around sub > iudice rules and undoubtedly many of the issues which give rise to legal > proceedings predate the term of office of the inumbent CEO. I have little > fear in suggesting that at least some of the mess has been created as a > result of the organization acting terribly daftly - either as to the merits > of a position or in not grasping commercial realities and litigation > strategy that would follow. > ?a c'est ton opinion, pas forc?ment ce que toi tu penses, avec pr?t de 5 affaires pendantent en justices toutes Intent?es par ton client, il y a de quoi ? ?tre d?bord?. Mais ce qui n'est pas forc?ment le cas, on ne sait pas ce qui s'est pass?, pas besoin d'interpr?tation ou d'insinuation. > > My worry is that the community is not aligning itself with the reality of > the ramifications of relying on the stability fund: > https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/ > > I find it difficult to understand why the RIRs which have pledged > considerably more to the stability fund will be satisfied with the need to > release funds to preserve Afrinic persisting in litigation with members > that is seeped in a regionalist ideological overlay. The fact that the > stability fund is not to allow an RIR to do as it pleases but rather to > ensure global stability means that a fundamental string of promoting a > global open Internet is inevitable. > L? aussi c'est ton interpr?tation et ton opinion, qui ne sont pas forc?ment la r?alit? du texte. > > If anything the best utilization of funds coming from RIPE (primarily - as > RIPE is the most committed to the stability) would be on policy development > and I anticipate that if emergency measures to stabilize Afrinic take the > form of policy development suggestions from RIPE that this will immediately > become a political taboo. Hopefully the Board and management will quickly > make it very clear that partnership in "building Africa's digital future" > means collaboration of a global nature. It means devising consensus and > action that is aimed at promoting a true digital future and distancing from > the deleterious xenophobic and regionalist attitudes and discourse that > flares up. The purpose of RIRs is to promote the development of the global > Internet within regions, it is not to carve up the Internet into regions. > Inter-net (INTERconnected NETwork) et non pas LAN, c'est l'interconnexion de plusieurs regeaux diff?rents, r?gion (localisation) technologie, etc. qui font de l'int?r?t ce qui est. Je pr?cise bien que les ressources allou?es par IANA sont bien r?gionales et non global, cette pilule que tu tentes de nous faire avaler ne passera pas. Rappelles toi les principes des points d'?change que tout le monde souhaite avoir m?me ? un niveau national ? plus forte raison r?gional. Donc les trafics r?gionaux doivent rester r?gionaux, tout en ?tant bel et bien connecter ? Internet. L? encore tu fait une interpr?tation erron?e de ce principe. > > The fund is clear that the RIR needs to resolve the problems causing the > crisis in order to use the fund: > >> It is expected that governing body of the affected RIR will take >> necessary and relevant decisions to resolve problems that lead the crisis. > > Afrinic sait a quel moment et dans quelle condition elle peut solliciter et obtenir ce fond de soutien, ce que tu en pense n'engage que toi. > > This brings me back to the fact that the best way to manage the risk which > is plaguing the organization is to get as much dispute resolution handled > outside of potentially organization shattering litigation. The membership > simply do not know how many litigants there are knocking at Afrinic but it > is quite clear that there are several cases that need to be handled > appropriately and to date the organization has crafted an environment > favouring a litigious approach. If the composition of the Board is what is > making it feasible for a litigant to convince a Court that the organization > acted with an ulterior motive then the CFOs of the other RIRs ought to want > the Board to be reconstituted. It appears that the "assisted review" > process is giving rise to much of the crisis and so I suspect RIPE members > familiar with the situation in Afrinic will charge that organization to > require that RIPE take charge of that process before opening up the wallet. > Ahahahahahah laisse moi rigoler sur ?a, j'ignorais que tu ma?trise aussi bien le fonctionnement de RIPE, et en quoi RIPE ma?triserait bien selon toi ce qui se passe ? Afrinic ? L? encore c'est ton opinion et ton interpr?tation personnelle, pas forc?ment le meilleur sc?nario. Tu oublie qu'Afrinic, ? d?pass? le niveau de "vaporware", qu'elle a grandie, 17ans et c'est la 1?re situation juridique majeur qu'elle g?re, laisse l? faire son exp?rience, pour encore mieux grandir. Elle ne tombera pas, Elle s'en sortira grandi. Donc je ne pense pas qu'elle aura besoin d'une babysister pour le moment. > While support from the membership is vital to receive assistance if the > fund is to be relied on the buy-in in "project Afrinic" is going to be > needed. I have difficulty seeing this support if the organization does not > by the 4th August have a convincing strategy for ensuring that those > disputes which are acting as a millstone around the organization are > handled in an orderly manner which doesn't undermine the stability of the > organization. This means that accountability of Afrinic's governing bodies > - particularly it's Board - is paramount. After all for accountability the > NRO is emphatic that Afrinic is bound to the laws of Mauritius (and thus > her courts, so the organization cannot be perceived or be playing chicken > with the courts): > Ahahahahahah, tu peux penser ce que tu veux, nous on soutient notre Board et le Staff dans leur effort pour sortir notre organisation de cette situation dans laquelle ton employeur tente de la mettre ? mal. Each RIR is accountable to its membership and bound by the laws of the >> jurisdiction in which it operates. > > (https://www.nro.net/accountability/) > > Paul > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Thu Jul 29 02:06:17 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 19:06:17 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <46361.1627507530@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <63B2E98F-A135-4020-8F0F-CBF245F0389E@delong.com> > On Jul 28, 2021, at 14:43 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote: > > Ronald is very right. > > How that can be possible? By no longer relevant, I mean it does not apply to the current business environment and business model under which Cloud Innovation currently operates. Updated information was, per policy, submitted to AFRINIC as things changed. This is perfectly normal for any ISP or other form of LIR. > Of course, the original justification is *extremely relevant*. Was it done properly and in good faith? First: yes. It was proper and in good faith for a business model that was very effective and useful at the time. > Was it properly checked by the staff? Was the relevant staff doing correctly his/her job? To the best of my knowledge, yes. To the best of my knowledge at least the last two allocations were also reviewed by the board prior to being issued. > Is that justification still valid, or if the original intended usage has been changed, has that been reviewed with the staff to ensure compliance with policies and rules? Cloud Innovation provided updates to AFRINIC about our changing utilization patters in accordance with policy to the best of our knowledge. While we have received indications from staff that they do not consider our updates to be sufficient, we have not, as yet, been able to get any clear indication from staff what the nature of these insufficiencies are and we have been unable to obtain an actionable request from staff that would allow us to provide a more useful answer. > I could understand that you could change the usage of a small % and it is just fine, but if it is the majority of the allocation, the original documented purpose may not be longer valid. We agree that the original documented purpose is no longer valid and have, as per policy requirements submitted updated information about the new purpose as each subordinate prefix was repurposed. I am not personally sure if there are any subordinate prefixes which are still utilized for the original purpose. But I am confident that each of the prefixes which was repurposed was properly updated with AFRINIC as required in policy. > If I said "I'm going to setup a network connecting 8 million users in a, b and c African countries, please allocate 9 million addresses to me". If then I change my business plan or actually *never* setup this network, the original documentation provided to justify the allocation, is not valid. Otherwise, every AFRINIC member could do the same, just to circumvent the rules! Sure, but if you said I?m going to provide addresses to number more than 6,000,000 hosts on our own and our customers networks, please give me 6,000,000 addresses in 2013 and 2014 (and we did this in the form of 4 sequential requests as utilization increased), and you can show that the networks were actually built out at each phase and you can show that the addresses are still utilized in a manner consistent with that description, then there?s no valid basis for reclamation. > Note that my comments are *in general* not just for CI or whatever is the AFRINIC member name or the number of allocated/assigned addresses. Fair enough. My comments are specific to CI because that is the specific case that I know and which seems to be the subject of this conversation. > We need to be crystal clear and transparent: If we want that the documented purposes for any member can change without a re-check, then it is open to all kind of cheating and I don't think the community adopted such rules. To allow that, we will need to agree, via the PDP on that. It did not change without a re-check. It changed over time on multiple prefixes and was visible to AFRINIC staff for changes beginning in 2016. The first indication we ever received that anything was not considered valid in this process came in the latter half of 2020. This is all documented in the timeline we posted to community-discuss several days back. Owen > > > ?El 28/7/21 23:31, "Ronald F. Guilmette" escribi?: > > In message , > Owen DeLong wrote: > >> We have already agreed that the original justification is no longer relevant > > What is this "we" Owen? Is that the royal "we"? Because *I* certainly > have no recollection that *I* ever agreed that the original justification > that was used as the basis for Cloud Innovation being granted two /11 > blocks and two /12 blocks is "no longer relevant". > > And given what we now know... largely due to my work... about all of the > funny business that occurred at AFRINIC between, say, 2010 and February, > 2015... the same time period when much or all of "The Great AFRINIC Heist" > happened... AND given the absolute and complete lack of public information > about how Cloud Innovation's allocations came to be in the first place, > I, for one, remain deeply curious about everything related to how those > allocations came to be made, back in 2013 and 2014. > > The only scrap of information that has, so far, been made pubic about that > decision process is that the decision(s) to grant Cloud Innovation two > /11 blocks and two /12 blocks were NOT made by the Board at the time, > but rather by "staff". (Well, anyway, there were some public mailing > list messages to that effect at the time.) > > > Regards, > rfg > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss From owen at delong.com Thu Jul 29 02:44:21 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 19:44:21 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <46361.1627507530@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <4FC446E1-5FBD-413D-8E23-5EF248F5E8D7@delong.com> > On Jul 28, 2021, at 16:57 , Arnaud AMELINA wrote: > > > > And given what we now know... largely due to my work... about all of the > funny business that occurred at AFRINIC between, say, 2010 and February, > 2015... the same time period when much or all of "The Great AFRINIC Heist" > happened... AND given the absolute and complete lack of public information > about how Cloud Innovation's allocations came to be in the first place, > I, for one, remain deeply curious about everything related to how those > allocations came to be made, back in 2013 and 2014. > > Oui en effet on se rappelle bien de cette p?riode o? le Board entrait dans le Mico-management d'Afrinic, et jouait quasiment le R?le du CEO, sans que ce dernier ne r?clame son droit, car ce sont eux qui l'ont recrut? face ? un Candidat hors du commun, respect de la communaut? Internet mondiale. Il avait donc peut-?tre peur pour son poste. The CEO at the time that our addresses were issued was none other than Adiel Akplogan, so it?s not really clear to me who you think you are targeting here, as I thought he was in place since the beginning of AFRINIC. What early better candidate do you believe was passed up in hiring Adiel? > The only scrap of information that has, so far, been made pubic about that > decision process is that the decision(s) to grant Cloud Innovation two > /11 blocks and two /12 blocks were NOT made by the Board at the time, > but rather by "staff". (Well, anyway, there were some public mailing > list messages to that effect at the time.) > > Je n'en suis pas s?r, m?me si le CEO de cette p?riode, se laissait suppl?anter par le Board. Je pari que le Board a fait valoir son veto pour que cette requ?te passe, avec la complicit? de certains membres du staff, qu'on voyait en ce temps l? participer ? des d?ners organis?s par CI. Ils se connaissent et ont int?r?t ? ce que les int?r?ts d'Afrinic soient bien pr?serv?s actuellement, sinon on va les d?noncer ici pour que tout le monde sache qui ils sont et ce qu'ils ont fait ? notre Afrique (notre chez nous). As near as I can parse this, you are ranting about certain board members attending dinners hosted by Cloud Innovation as if a mere dinner would sway someone?s vote against their fiduciary responsibility. You appear to be making unfounded charges of corruption without providing any evidence which amounts to an ad hominem attack in violation of the CoC. Beyond that, I?m not able to parse anything relevant in your screed, so I will not bother to respond beyond that point. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Thu Jul 29 02:47:45 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 19:47:45 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> Message-ID: <0DC60556-3D2B-46D8-9D91-74BD94D4FC27@delong.com> > On Jul 27, 2021, at 23:31 , Noah wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 6:43 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > wrote: > > >> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:35, Omo Oaiya > wrote: >> >> ? >> >>> On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: >>> >>> >>> In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite persuasively that >>> there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa on Cloud >>> on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand. I personally have >>> no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I >>> personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that >>> relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance. But to try >>> to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of the >>> clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous. It is silly. >> > I did not deny that a relationship exists. I pointed out that there is no evidence presented to indicate that it is anything more than customer/supplier. > > In the last board elections where Elkins defeated Paul Wolner, there were multiple resource members who received phone calls from HongKong asking them to vote for Wolner. > > Check the archives. Which proves that we supported his candidacy because we felt he was well qualified and would do a good job. It doesn?t prove that the relationship between CI and AOC is deeper than customer/supplier. I honestly don?t know whether it is or is not, but until actual evidence is presented, I?ll refrain from judgment based on innuendo and speculation. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Thu Jul 29 03:25:22 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 20:25:22 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Correction to my previous email In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A5F9A43-B14E-4D91-AD78-58C00FDF60CD@delong.com> > > Ahahahahahah, tu peux penser ce que tu veux, nous on soutient notre Board et le Staff dans leur effort pour sortir notre organisation de cette situation dans laquelle ton employeur tente de la mettre ? mal. I will ignore your other mostly content free comments, but I wish to point out a factual error here. To the best of my knowledge, and according to the CEO, Paul Hjul is not now, nor has he ever been in the employ of Cloud Innovation or Larus. As such, your statement above is absurd. Perhaps, Arnaud, you should consider the possibility that not everyone who disagrees with you is necessarily employed by the same company. Perhaps there is a legitimate fraction of the community that shares the same opinions on some issues, which happens to disagree with yours. I realize that it may be inconvenient to have to produce a cogent, fact-based argument with, you know, actual evidence and documentation, but that is what is necessary to create an informed dialogue and a useful debate. Otherwise, it?s just a spitball contest between competing rants (or in this case, one side attempting a legitimate debate, while the other continues to engage in ad hominem, innuendo, speculation, and meritless accusation). Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jul 29 04:16:51 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 21:16:51 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <48018.1627532211@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >Ronald is very right. Jordi, you say that almost as if there could ever have been any doubt! :-) Anyway, there has been a lot of heat and backbiting and diversions and (in my opinion) uncalled for veiled innuendo in and on the mailing lists of late, but for me, the central issues that both members and outside observers, such as myself, should be concerned about are just these (in no particular order): (*) Did Cloud Innovation behave properly, lawfully, and in accordance with their RSA contract and AFRINIC policy back when the company first received its IPv4 allocations? (*) Since then, has Cloud Innovation behaved properly, lawfully, and in accordance with their RSA contract and AFRINIC policy? (*) When AFRINIC first granted Cloud Innovation its IPv4 allocations, did it (AFRINIC) behave properly, lawfully, and in accordance with all applicable AFRINIC policies and procedures at that time? (*) When AFRINIC recently made the decision to (attempt to) reclaim those IPv4 address blocks that AFRINIC had previously granted to Cloud Innovation, did it behave properly, lawfully, and in accordance with its own policies and Bylaws, AND in accordance with the terms of Cloud Innovation's previously executed RSA contract (which also bound AFRINIC to certain Terms & Conditions)? (*) Did the Mauritian judicial system behave properly, lawfully, and in accordance with Mauritian law when it granted an (ex parte?) request for an order freezing AFRINIC's bank accounts? Having set forth these key questions, I would urge restraint on all those who would now attempt to provide us with their views on these questions ESPECIALLY if their responses would provide no new hard information and no viewpoints that have not already been flogged to death on this mailing list. There is neither any need for nor any purpose to be served by Owen writing another 10,000 lines explaining his viewpoint. I think we all have already taken note of that, in spades. Equally, there is neither any need for, nor any point in Leo posting any more vague innuendos about "money". (Having made this suggestion, I will break with my own recommendation and give my view, briefly, on just the final bullet point above, but in a separate message to follow this one.) In short, we have no shortage of opinions here. What we do have is a relative dearth of hard facts and evidence, and 99% of all the posts here over the past week or so have failed to do a single thing to improve that situation. As I have said previously, the Mauritian courts will, I hope, in due course be the ultimate arbiters of the several open questions listed above, leaving the opinions posted here as merely the proverbial "sound and fury, signifying nothing." Until then, and given that neither party has shown us all of their cards, most of us here are and will remain just passive observers to a high stakes poker game whose outcome is as yet quite uncertain. I'm sure that both sides of this epic struggle are hoping that their respective astroturfing efforts, here on this list, will in some way affect the final outcome. My hope is that it shall not be so. The facts should determine the outcome, not the PR campaigns or either side or either faction. One final comment on Jordi's post... >We need to be crystal clear and transparent: If we want that the documented >purposes for any member can change without a re-check, then it is open to >all kind of cheating... Jordi's point is valid, but doesn't go nearly far enough in the way of diagnosing the actual problem. The entire global system by which the five RIRs decide who will and who will not be granted (now valuable) number resources is, and has been from the beginning, and BY DESIGN a process cloaked in utter secrecy, with zero outside accountability. The entire system is an open invitation to cheating and self-dealing, no less so than the equally international and unaccountable organization known as FIFA. (And I hope that you all know by now how well THAT worked out.) To paraphrase from the classic Tennessee Williams play "A Streetcar Named Desire", all of us have been, are, and remain "Reliant on the honesty of strangers." This is the actual and central lesson of "The Great AFRINIC Heist" that no one but me seems to have fully appreciated, i.e. that under a cloak of utter secrecy and in the absence of any independent oversight, anything is possible... not just corruption, but corruption on a grand scale, and corruption that can even go on for years on end without anyone being any the wiser. Back in the salad days, when IP addresses were worth nothing, the global system of RIRs worked well enough. But we haven't been living in that carefree, idyllic and innocent age for at least twelve or thirteen years now, ever since Microsoft bough a massive chunk of legacy IPv4 space from the bankruptcy estate of Nortel. That anyone might still believe, here in the year 2021, that the old system is still appropriate to the modern challenges is frankly unfathomable to me. If anything should have persuaded everyone that the old system, based as it is on secrecy and NDAs and zero independent review, is hopelessly broken, then "The Great AFRINIC Heist" should have been that something. That heist should have been the 800 pound canary in the coal mine. But apparently it is going to take an even bigger crisis of faith for people to finally see the writing on the wall. There's no way to know just yet, but we may currently be witnessing the beginning of exactly such a bigger crisis. Regards, rfg From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Thu Jul 29 05:37:19 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:37:19 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <46680.1627511870@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <46680.1627511870@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: Hi Ronald, I disagree. At a minimum they were against the equivalent to the GDPR in Mauritius, as they used information collected from whois, mail exploders, etc., for a different purpose that the one agreed. I can publish my email and phone in any public mailing list (or whois), but you need my explicit and previous consent for using it for different purposes. Many similar cases have been fined by the DPAs. Also, it is against the usage terms of the whois and CoC. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet ?El 29/7/21 0:43, "Ronald F. Guilmette" escribi?: In message , Noah wrote: >In the last board elections where Elkins defeated Paul Wolner, there were >multiple resource members who received phone calls from HongKong asking >them to vote for Wolner. In my view, these allegations were never proven, and even if they were, so what? Unless such "electioneering" is performed in a mostly automated fashion... in which case they might well be considered to be spammish... there's nothing illegal, immoral, or even unethical about making calls and asking people to vote for one's preferred candidates for some elected office. (And indeed, we here in the U.S. are routinely inundated with such calls on a daily basis, starting generally about two months before each local or national election.) Regards, rfg _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jul 29 05:46:43 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 22:46:43 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Correction to my previous email In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <48274.1627537603@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Paul Hjul has posted to this mailing list a number of well-reasoned and eloquently articulated arguments that are more than sensible, and with which I agree wholeheartedly. The quotes below are not among them. In message Paul Hjul wrote: >Hopefully the Board and management will quickly >make it very clear that partnership in "building Africa's digital future" >means collaboration of a global nature. It means devising consensus and >action that is aimed at promoting a true digital future and distancing from >the deleterious xenophobic and regionalist attitudes and discourse that >flares up. Paul, this is the second time that you have injected these dual epithets, "xenophobic" and "regionalist" into the conversation here. I personally feel that these terms are both distracting and beneath the otherwise admirable level of your discourse. Further, I am not even persuaded that the term "regionalist" even is an epithet, even though it is clear that you intend us to interpret it that way. What is the opposite of "regionalist"? "Globalist"? Assuming so, I would be more than happy to debate you, ad infinitum, on the question of whether "globalism", writ large, has or has not improved the lot of the lower classes globally, and specifically in the third world, or whether its primary economic effects have been to make mega-billionaries even richer to the point where they can now commute to space via their own private rocket ships. Paul, if you're going to trumpet the beneficial effects of globalist capitalism, then you had best be prepared also to defend its less desirable effects as well. Is it right or proper or fair that a poor sharecropper in Kenya should go hungry or that his daughter should lose an eye for want of a surgeon, all because speculators in New York have decided amongst themselves that the global price of bulk coffee should be cut in half this week? >This brings me back to the fact that the best way to manage the risk which >is plaguing the organization is to get as much dispute resolution handled >outside of potentially organization shattering litigation. So you are in favor of unilateral disarmament on the part of AFRINIC? You want them to go cap in hand to all three of the parties that are current suing them and beg for a negotiated settlement in each case? Maybe we should make you the next U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan. >The membership >simply do not know how many litigants there are knocking at Afrinic Objection your honor! Speculative. Calls for a conclusion not based on the facts in evidence. I might as well speculate that there are just oodles and oodles of people and companies lining up, as we speak, to sue -you-. (How do we know there aren't? Can you prove that there aren't any such?) >but it >is quite clear that there are several cases that need to be handled >appropriately and to date the organization has crafted an environment >favouring a litigious approach. I'll be blunt. That is utter rubbish. AFRINIC did the Right Thing by reclaiming blocks of IP addresses which had been -provably- stolen from its free pool. Two of those thieving companies sued, apparently based on nothing other than bogus disinformation that they themselves had manufactured out of their... well... out of thin air. Nothing AFRINIC did in either of those two cases consitutes "crafting an environment favouring a litigious approach". That is an utterly false, disingenuous, and slanderous claim with no basis in fact and I encourage yoy to retract it. More recently, AFRINIC, acting on information that none of us has yet even seen, made a decision to reclaim a great deal of IPv4 space from a different party. In the wake of that decision, THE OTHER PARTY initiated legal action. Once again, your narrative of AFRINIC "crafting an environment favouring a litigious approach" falls flat in the cold light of day and the actual facts. I'm damn glad that you are not the CEO of my bank. It seems that if you were, and if the place got robbed, you would just throw up your hands and say "Oh well! Boys will be boys!" If the bank got robbed three times in a row, you would blame it on the bank and urge the bank president to sit down in arbitration with the various robbers. We've seen this kind of thing where I live. Not recently but in the past. Some people occasionally claim that women who have been molested have only themselves to blame because they were wearing skirts that were too short. Blame the victim. We don't do this too much here in the U.S. anymore, as the practice has been well and widely discredited. The blame now properly goes to the perpetrators, NOT to the victims. Let's be clear about who, exactly, has "crafted an environment favouring a litigious approach". AFRINIC is currently facing three legal actions against it. Who initiated each and all of those? I'll give you a hint. It wasn't AFRINIC. What AFRINIC has done may be right or may be wrong, but AFRINIC is not the party that has initiated these legal actions, two of which, at least, are based on some of the most provably outrageous frauds ever conceived by the mind of man. It seems however that you want AFRINIC to sit down amicably with those thieves and negotiate with them so that they each get to keep half of what they have provably stolen. Doing so would only add disgrace to dishonor, and I, for one, sincerly hope that AFRINIC does not do so. Regards, rfg From ish at lsldigital.com Thu Jul 29 07:02:38 2021 From: ish at lsldigital.com (Ish Sookun) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 11:02:38 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <46680.1627511870@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <46680.1627511870@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <2364449.J7VWoQ3GvX@coffee-bar> Hi Ronald, On Thursday, 29 July 2021 02:37:50 +04 Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > (And indeed, we here in the U.S. > are routinely inundated with such calls on a daily basis, starting > generally about two months before each local or national election.) Americans accept to be inundated with election lobbyists on phone on daily basis? And they do nothing to stop it? Regards, -- Ish Sookun From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Thu Jul 29 07:10:17 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:10:17 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <2364449.J7VWoQ3GvX@coffee-bar> References: <46680.1627511870@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <2364449.J7VWoQ3GvX@coffee-bar> Message-ID: <5F310160-A2A5-4FF0-994A-E51031927EFB@consulintel.es> Even more .... They accept their president to ask for the Capitol invasion and nothing happens ... interesting at least! But the question here is, in the EU, spam by SMS, phone, or *any means* (not just email) is against GDPR and many other regulations. I'm unsure if the "transposition" of the GDPR in Mauritius is also following the same rationale. Can someone confirm? Regards, Jordi @jordipalet ?El 29/7/21 9:05, "Ish Sookun via Community-Discuss" escribi?: Hi Ronald, On Thursday, 29 July 2021 02:37:50 +04 Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > (And indeed, we here in the U.S. > are routinely inundated with such calls on a daily basis, starting > generally about two months before each local or national election.) Americans accept to be inundated with election lobbyists on phone on daily basis? And they do nothing to stop it? Regards, -- Ish Sookun _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jul 29 07:32:38 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 00:32:38 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Bridge Financing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <48598.1627543958@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , Owen DeLong wrote: >So far, we have no indication that the stability fund has actually >agreed to support AFRINIC (requires unanimous consent of all 5 RIR >CEOs), nor do we have any confirmation that this is the alleged >alternative source of funding. Indeed, AFRINIC has been quite opaque >about where these alternate funds are coming from, possibly because they >are concerned about their secret stash of cash also getting attached. Since I am in a position to do so, I'd like to help clear up this mystery now so as to prevent there from being any idle speculation on this mailing list. (It would be a real pity if the worldwide reputation of this mailing list for being a source of nothing but factual information were to be tarnished at this late date on the basis of any unsupported speculations that might, in future, be posted here.) In light of AFRINIC's current financial predicament, and through my personal international banking connections, I have graciously agreed to facilitate a short term and very limited set of bridge financing arrangements for AFRINIC. In order to forestall any possible suspicions that these financing arrangements might be provided by persons or entities outside of the AFRINIC region who might have less than noble motives, as an integral part of these arrangements I have enlisted the assistance of my old friend and mentor, Prince Oogalaboogala of Nigeria. He has provided me with the utmost and most solemn assurances that as soon as I am able to to effectuate a bank transfer to him of $695 USD (in order to cover ceratin unavoidable and associated out-of-pocket fees and costs) that he will then be in a postion to provide AFRINIC with a guaranteed credit line, up to the amount of 50 million Mauritian rupees (some $1,168,862.50 USD) in order to provide for daily operational expenses @ AFRINIC. The entire amount of this bridge financing will itself of course be subject to Mauritian legal action, if and when it should come to that. I hope that this public disclosure on my part puts the matter to rest. I can certainly understand the concern of both Owen and Cloud Innovation that in the event that the latter ultimately prevails in court, thus bankrupting AFRINIC, it would be self-evidently unfair for it to then be denied full rights to also check between the couch cushions in the AFRINIC break room for any possible remaining loose change, or for any as-yet undonated blood plasma. Regards, rfg From noah at neo.co.tz Thu Jul 29 07:33:19 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 10:33:19 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <46680.1627511870@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <46680.1627511870@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jul 2021, 01:44 Ronald F. Guilmette, wrote: > In message iS0Fw at mail.gmail.com>, > Noah wrote: > > >In the last board elections where Elkins defeated Paul Wolner, there were > >multiple resource members who received phone calls from HongKong asking > >them to vote for Wolner. > > In my view, these allegations were never proven, and even if they > were, so what? Association. Do ARIN members receive phone calls from Hongkong asking the resource members to vote for a specific ARIC AC member as an example? Or for that matter to LACNIC candidates for board get the "vote for x candidate" calls from AFRICA? Larus is based in Hongkong and its safe to assume that Paul Wolner campaign manager who was WhatsApp calling people is associated. Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jul 29 07:55:22 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 00:55:22 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <48695.1627545322@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , Owen DeLong wrote: >Cloud Innovation submitted correct and valid justifications under policy which >were reviewed not only by staff, but also by the AFRINIC board. The board >elected {to} have the addresses issued after deliberating the matter. Yes, as >is the case with any other resource member, that justification remains >confidential. OK. I'll bite. Why? Why should a set of justifications for large IP space blocks that were submitted 7 or 8 years ago still be in any way "confidential" *today* and here in 2021? Haven't you told us, repeatedly, that yes, Cloud Innovation's IP space is nowadays being used in entirely different manner and for entirely different purposes than it was when it was all first granted? If not then why did you yourself assert that the -original- IP space justifications are "no longer relevant"? If the space is all being used in a totally different way now than how it was originally being used back in 2013 and 2014... which seems to be just about the only fact that both Cloud Innovation and AFRINIC agree on... then what's the big secret? Why not just show us the original justifications? That original justification documentation is utterly irrelevant to Cloud Innovation's *current* business and to Cloud Innovation's *current* business model, so where is the harm in just showing us that stale, old, and "irrelevant" stuff? >> The only scrap of information that has, so far, been made pubic about that >> decision process is that the decision(s) to grant Cloud Innovation two >> /11 blocks and two /12 blocks were NOT made by the Board at the time, >> but rather by "staff". (Well, anyway, there were some public mailing >> list messages to that effect at the time.) > >Whether the ultimate decision was made by staff or by the board, certainly the >board reviewed and weighed in on at least the last two to the best of my >knowledge. So the Board at the time DID NOT weight in on the first two allocations that Cloud Innovation got, correct? That decision was made strictly and only by "staff", yes? (Again, there were claims made to that effect... PUBLIC claims... back at the time, i.e. that the allocation decisions had been made by "staff" and -not- reviewed by the board. I will try to find the links for you if you doubt it. I think that I saved those in one of my investigation files.) Remind me please... Who was the ultimate head of "staff" at the time? I'm talking about 2013 and 2014. My memory seems to be failing me. Regards, rfg From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jul 29 08:05:35 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 01:05:35 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <63B2E98F-A135-4020-8F0F-CBF245F0389E@delong.com> Message-ID: <48768.1627545935@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message <63B2E98F-A135-4020-8F0F-CBF245F0389E at delong.com>, Owen DeLong wrote: >> Of course, the original justification is *extremely relevant*. Was >>it done properly and in good faith? > >First: yes. It was proper and in good faith for a business model that >was very effective and useful at the time. Great! When do we get to see the relevant documents? Regards, rfg From geier at geier.ne.tz Thu Jul 29 08:44:43 2021 From: geier at geier.ne.tz (Frank Habicht) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 11:44:43 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <63B2E98F-A135-4020-8F0F-CBF245F0389E@delong.com> References: <46361.1627507530@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <63B2E98F-A135-4020-8F0F-CBF245F0389E@delong.com> Message-ID: <32c23e14-ffd1-c1f4-a8b6-586005b26624@geier.ne.tz> On 29/07/2021 05:06, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote: >> On Jul 28, 2021, at 14:43 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote: >> If I said "I'm going to setup a network connecting 8 million users in a, b and c African countries, please allocate 9 million addresses to me". If then I change my business plan or actually *never* setup this network, the original documentation provided to justify the allocation, is not valid. Otherwise, every AFRINIC member could do the same, just to circumvent the rules! > > Sure, but if you said I?m going to provide addresses to number more than 6,000,000 hosts on our own and our customers networks, please give me 6,000,000 addresses in 2013 and 2014 (and we did this in the form of 4 sequential requests as utilization increased), and you can show that the networks were actually built out at each phase and you can show that the addresses are still utilized in a manner consistent with that description, then there?s no valid basis for reclamation. I'd like to point out that both Jordi's question and Owens answer are hypothetical. Including the conclusion. Frank From ish at lsldigital.com Thu Jul 29 08:55:29 2021 From: ish at lsldigital.com (Ish Sookun) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 12:55:29 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Use of personal data from mailing list for election lobbying (Was: Update on legal case) In-Reply-To: <5F310160-A2A5-4FF0-994A-E51031927EFB@consulintel.es> References: <46680.1627511870@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <2364449.J7VWoQ3GvX@coffee-bar> <5F310160-A2A5-4FF0-994A-E51031927EFB@consulintel.es> Message-ID: <11304692.pP4aiupTnA@coffee-bar> Hi Jordi, On Thursday, 29 July 2021 11:10:17 +04 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community- Discuss wrote: > But the question here is, in the EU, spam by SMS, phone, or *any means* (not > just email) is against GDPR and many other regulations. > > I'm unsure if the "transposition" of the GDPR in Mauritius is also following > the same rationale. Can someone confirm? My understanding of the Data Protection Act (2018) of Mauritius is similar to what you mentioned above. However, with regards to email related spam, I've put questions to CERT-MU on multiple occasions in the past, with no answer. I am looping in Dr. Usmani in this email. He has been a board election candidate in the past and he is the Assistant Manager of CERT-MU. He can probably enlighten more on this. Regards, -- Ish Sookun From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jul 29 09:01:11 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 02:01:11 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <49027.1627549271@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >I disagree. At a minimum they were against the equivalent to the GDPR >in Mauritius, as they used information collected from whois, mail >exploders, etc., for a different purpose that the one agreed. It may have escaped your attention Jordi, but I think that AFRINIC has some rather bigger fish to fry at the moment. More to the point, if I email you offline and tell you that I happen to know of a great vacation spot in Barcelona that you may want to try out some day, are you going to report me to the Spanish GDPR police? At what point does the over-agressive interpretation and/or enforcement of GDPR, either in Europe or in Mauritius, become nothing by a bad joke, deserving of nothing but scorn and ridicule? GDPR was written to respond to over-the-top absurdities like the revelations about Facebook and their unholy relationship with Cambridge Analytica. It was *not* written so that you could rat me out to the GDRP police when I tell you and three other friends about my favorite restaurant. >Also, it is against the usage terms of the whois and CoC. Apparently, lots of things are against the CoC. I have been pointlessly harassed merely because it is -alleged- that speaking ill of the Mauritian judiciary is a violation of the CoC. If we're all going to become bickering lawyers when it comes to such small things, then I'd like to now assert *my* rights under both the the United States First Amendment and also the entirely clear provisions of the United Nation's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 19, to say whatever I damn well please about the Mauritian judiciary, and without any further interference or improper chastisments on the part of AFRINIC staff members who aren't lawyers but who nontheless like to pretend that they are. https://www.un.org/sites/un2.un.org/files/udhr.pdf As regards to the WHOIS Terms & Conditions, show me the part that you think was violated, and I'll show you how it doesn't mean what you apparently think it means. Regards, rfg From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jul 29 09:11:54 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 02:11:54 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <2364449.J7VWoQ3GvX@coffee-bar> Message-ID: <49071.1627549914@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message <2364449.J7VWoQ3GvX at coffee-bar>, Ish Sookun wrote: >On Thursday, 29 July 2021 02:37:50 +04 Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: >> (And indeed, we here in the U.S. >> are routinely inundated with such calls on a daily basis, starting >> generally about two months before each local or national election.) > >Americans accept to be inundated with election lobbyists on phone on daily >basis? Only around election time, thankfully. >And they do nothing to stop it? Well, you know, it's a funny thing. Lots of people and lots of organized groups have lobbied repeatedly over the years for the enactment of new laws that would put a stop to this, but rather surprizingly (to almost no one) the elected politicians who would have to adopt such new laws restricting such practices have consistantly failed to do so, and for many many years in a row. Some have suggested that maybe... since they are the ones doing it... they are not all that keen on passing new laws to restrict their own practices, infuriating to the public thought they may be. Funny how that works. Regards, rfg From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Thu Jul 29 09:14:29 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 11:14:29 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <49027.1627549271@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <49027.1627549271@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <1E7823B3-005A-4813-9E46-76F61D45762B@consulintel.es> Hi Ronald, Yes, no doubt the other fish is more important now ... but all this is also relevant for the case, and legal counsel may need to consider all that in front of the Courts ... The typical interpretation of the DPA is (from previous judgements): If your email about the vacation spot is a "friend" recommendation, they it may be that you only get a warning if I didn't offered to you my email as "friend", but you captured it from a mailing list. However, if you're sending the email because you have some "business", "commissions" or anything with that "promotion" of the spot, then it is a spam, unless I've provided a previous and explicit consent. "selling" a Board candidate it is spam, no doubts. It is unethical, unmoral and against the usage rules of the whois and mail exploders. The whois is a database to know registered resources and be able to contact the responsible people for matters related to that. Even if the whois "rules" don't explicitly mention that, the GDPR is on top of the whois rules which already said previous and explicit consent for a specific matter. According GDPR, if you have my email because you sell me fruits, and you decide to start selling fish, you need my previous and explicit consent for spamming me about the fish. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet ?El 29/7/21 11:03, "Ronald F. Guilmette" escribi?: In message , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >I disagree. At a minimum they were against the equivalent to the GDPR >in Mauritius, as they used information collected from whois, mail >exploders, etc., for a different purpose that the one agreed. It may have escaped your attention Jordi, but I think that AFRINIC has some rather bigger fish to fry at the moment. More to the point, if I email you offline and tell you that I happen to know of a great vacation spot in Barcelona that you may want to try out some day, are you going to report me to the Spanish GDPR police? At what point does the over-agressive interpretation and/or enforcement of GDPR, either in Europe or in Mauritius, become nothing by a bad joke, deserving of nothing but scorn and ridicule? GDPR was written to respond to over-the-top absurdities like the revelations about Facebook and their unholy relationship with Cambridge Analytica. It was *not* written so that you could rat me out to the GDRP police when I tell you and three other friends about my favorite restaurant. >Also, it is against the usage terms of the whois and CoC. Apparently, lots of things are against the CoC. I have been pointlessly harassed merely because it is -alleged- that speaking ill of the Mauritian judiciary is a violation of the CoC. If we're all going to become bickering lawyers when it comes to such small things, then I'd like to now assert *my* rights under both the the United States First Amendment and also the entirely clear provisions of the United Nation's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 19, to say whatever I damn well please about the Mauritian judiciary, and without any further interference or improper chastisments on the part of AFRINIC staff members who aren't lawyers but who nontheless like to pretend that they are. https://www.un.org/sites/un2.un.org/files/udhr.pdf As regards to the WHOIS Terms & Conditions, show me the part that you think was violated, and I'll show you how it doesn't mean what you apparently think it means. Regards, rfg _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From erickj.lagon at gmail.com Thu Jul 29 09:14:59 2021 From: erickj.lagon at gmail.com (Erick Joshua Lagon) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:14:59 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Correction to my previous email In-Reply-To: <48274.1627537603@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <48274.1627537603@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: I will give Eddy the credit for retracting his mistakes. However, what bothers me in his statement (in the video), is one: the other means to acquire funds, what other means is the AFRINIC going to do? I hope that AFRINIC will be transparent in this accord, for the sake of the Community. Second, will be the Joint RIR Stability Fund. I have seen that AFRINIC is the smallest contributor in this stability fund ( https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/). The question is, can the AFRINIC contribute as much as their counterparts to the stability fund? Also, this hiccup in the operations of AFRINIC should trigger a sense of urgency in them to reform their system in order to deliver excellent services to their members. Regards, Erick On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 1:47 PM Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > Paul Hjul has posted to this mailing list a number of well-reasoned > and eloquently articulated arguments that are more than sensible, > and with which I agree wholeheartedly. The quotes below are not > among them. > > In message < > CAF4kYpvN-OqTh1-jbC5Kctg4vC6Wum62DtP8aYj+VJ9+V6Kbrw at mail.gmail.com> > Paul Hjul wrote: > > >Hopefully the Board and management will quickly > >make it very clear that partnership in "building Africa's digital future" > >means collaboration of a global nature. It means devising consensus and > >action that is aimed at promoting a true digital future and distancing > from > >the deleterious xenophobic and regionalist attitudes and discourse that > >flares up. > > Paul, this is the second time that you have injected these dual epithets, > "xenophobic" and "regionalist" into the conversation here. I personally > feel that these terms are both distracting and beneath the otherwise > admirable level of your discourse. Further, I am not even persuaded > that the term "regionalist" even is an epithet, even though it is clear > that you intend us to interpret it that way. > > What is the opposite of "regionalist"? "Globalist"? Assuming so, I would > be more than happy to debate you, ad infinitum, on the question of whether > "globalism", writ large, has or has not improved the lot of the lower > classes globally, and specifically in the third world, or whether its > primary economic effects have been to make mega-billionaries even richer > to the point where they can now commute to space via their own private > rocket ships. > > Paul, if you're going to trumpet the beneficial effects of globalist > capitalism, then you had best be prepared also to defend its less > desirable effects as well. Is it right or proper or fair that a > poor sharecropper in Kenya should go hungry or that his daughter > should lose an eye for want of a surgeon, all because speculators in > New York have decided amongst themselves that the global price of > bulk coffee should be cut in half this week? > > >This brings me back to the fact that the best way to manage the risk which > >is plaguing the organization is to get as much dispute resolution handled > >outside of potentially organization shattering litigation. > > So you are in favor of unilateral disarmament on the part of AFRINIC? > You want them to go cap in hand to all three of the parties that are > current suing them and beg for a negotiated settlement in each case? > > Maybe we should make you the next U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan. > > >The membership > >simply do not know how many litigants there are knocking at Afrinic > > Objection your honor! Speculative. Calls for a conclusion not based on > the facts in evidence. > > I might as well speculate that there are just oodles and oodles of people > and companies lining up, as we speak, to sue -you-. (How do we know > there aren't? Can you prove that there aren't any such?) > > >but it > >is quite clear that there are several cases that need to be handled > >appropriately and to date the organization has crafted an environment > >favouring a litigious approach. > > I'll be blunt. That is utter rubbish. AFRINIC did the Right Thing by > reclaiming blocks of IP addresses which had been -provably- stolen from > its free pool. Two of those thieving companies sued, apparently based > on nothing other than bogus disinformation that they themselves had > manufactured out of their... well... out of thin air. Nothing AFRINIC > did in either of those two cases consitutes "crafting an environment > favouring a litigious approach". That is an utterly false, disingenuous, > and slanderous claim with no basis in fact and I encourage yoy to retract > it. > > More recently, AFRINIC, acting on information that none of us has yet even > seen, made a decision to reclaim a great deal of IPv4 space from a > different > party. In the wake of that decision, THE OTHER PARTY initiated legal > action. > > Once again, your narrative of AFRINIC "crafting an environment favouring > a litigious approach" falls flat in the cold light of day and the actual > facts. > > I'm damn glad that you are not the CEO of my bank. It seems that if you > were, and if the place got robbed, you would just throw up your hands and > say "Oh well! Boys will be boys!" > > If the bank got robbed three times in a row, you would blame it on the > bank and urge the bank president to sit down in arbitration with the > various robbers. > > We've seen this kind of thing where I live. Not recently but in the past. > Some people occasionally claim that women who have been molested have only > themselves to blame because they were wearing skirts that were too short. > Blame the victim. We don't do this too much here in the U.S. anymore, as > the practice has been well and widely discredited. The blame now properly > goes to the perpetrators, NOT to the victims. > > Let's be clear about who, exactly, has "crafted an environment favouring > a litigious approach". AFRINIC is currently facing three legal actions > against it. Who initiated each and all of those? > > I'll give you a hint. It wasn't AFRINIC. > > What AFRINIC has done may be right or may be wrong, but AFRINIC is not > the party that has initiated these legal actions, two of which, at > least, are based on some of the most provably outrageous frauds ever > conceived by the mind of man. > > It seems however that you want AFRINIC to sit down amicably with those > thieves and negotiate with them so that they each get to keep half of > what they have provably stolen. Doing so would only add disgrace to > dishonor, and I, for one, sincerly hope that AFRINIC does not do so. > > > Regards, > rfg > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jul 29 09:17:47 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 02:17:47 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <49114.1627550267@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Noah wrote: >On Thu, 29 Jul 2021, 01:44 Ronald F. Guilmette, wrote: >> In my view, these allegations were never proven, and even if they >> were, so what? > >Association. > >Do ARIN members receive phone calls from Hongkong asking the resource >members to vote for a specific ARIC AC member as an example? If they did, then I guarantee you that nobody would much care. Free advice: Let it go Noah. You're trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill, and there are rather bigger things going on right now. Regards, rfg From jaberamatogoro at gmail.com Thu Jul 29 09:40:47 2021 From: jaberamatogoro at gmail.com (Matogoro Jabera) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 12:40:47 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C@delong.com> <38677.1627374556@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: Ali Hussein, You said it correctly. It is time for solidarity. Africa needs to re-unite again. Africa unite 'Cause we're moving right out of Babylon And we're going to our Father's land Unite for the benefit (Africa unite) of your people! Unite for it's later (Africa unite) than you think! Unite for the benefit (Africa unite) of my children! Unite for it's later (Africa uniting) than you think! Regards, --- MATOGORO Jabhera Assistant Lecturer and Coordinator for Research & Publication Department of Computer Science and Engineering College of Informatics and Virtual Education The University of Dodoma Website: www.udom.ac.tz On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 12:48 PM Ali Hussein wrote: > I have been following this saga for a few days now and I can't help but > wonder (And this is aside from discussing the case of Cloud Innovation and > AfriNIC) I want to address the process of Mauritian law. > > How does a court in Mauritius freeze the bank accounts of another company > through ex parte proceedings? For those who might not understand what I > mean - *ex parte is **done with respect to or in the interests of one > side only or of an interested outside party. *This is a basic tenet in > law. Was Afrinic given an opportunity to defend itself before these orders > to freeze its accounts were given? Or were summons given and Afrinic > ignored them? > > If the former is true then maybe it's time to address the issue of the > domicility of Afrinic. Maybe Mauritius is too hostile for a > Pan-African-based organization. How else do you interpreter this? A court > giving an unprecedented ex parte ruling against an African Organization in > favor of a Hongkong-based organization who we are all clear is a purveyor > of African IP Addresses to organizations outside of Africa as its core > business model. > > Let's put aside all this hullabaloo of ohh...The board didn't do > this...Oooh the board should have done this! and let's address the elephant > in the room. Everything else is a sideshow. > > > *Ali Hussein* > > Digital Transformation > > > Tel: +254 713 601113 > > Twitter: @AliHKassim > > Skype: abu-jomo > > LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim > > > > > > Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely > mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the > organizations that I work with. > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 11:31 AM Ronald F. Guilmette < > rfg at tristatelogic.com> wrote: > >> In message <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C at delong.com>, >> Owen DeLong wrote: >> >> >> That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen. >> > >> >Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by >> >Respondent to Petitioner. >> > >> >I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it. >> >> Well, no offense Owen, but I also have in my posession a document that >> definitively proves that you are Satan. I would like to share that >> with everyone, but my lawyer won't let me. Until he does however >> I think that everyone should just take it on faith, because I'm >> always right and I never lie. >> :-) >> >> >> Regards, >> rfg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jul 29 09:55:53 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 02:55:53 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <1E7823B3-005A-4813-9E46-76F61D45762B@consulintel.es> Message-ID: <49294.1627552553@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message <1E7823B3-005A-4813-9E46-76F61D45762B at consulintel.es>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >The whois is a database to know registered resources and be able >to contact the responsible people for matters related to that. Show me where it says that. >Even if the whois "rules" don't explicitly mention that, the >GDPR is on top of the whois rules No, it isn't. Regards, rfg From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jul 29 10:02:54 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 03:02:54 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <49453.1627552974@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Matogoro Jabera wrote: >You said it correctly. It is time for solidarity. Africa needs to re-unite >again. YES!!! Just like back in... ah... back in... ahhhh... Sorry. What year was that again? Regards, rfg From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Thu Jul 29 10:08:08 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 12:08:08 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <49294.1627552553@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <1E7823B3-005A-4813-9E46-76F61D45762B@consulintel.es> <49294.1627552553@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <63009ED1-95AB-4863-8DD8-213BFFEAD9D2@consulintel.es> You don't think that any national law, in this case in Mauritius (which have an equivalent to the GDPR), is on top of organization rules? Regards, Jordi @jordipalet ?El 29/7/21 11:58, "Ronald F. Guilmette" escribi?: In message <1E7823B3-005A-4813-9E46-76F61D45762B at consulintel.es>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >The whois is a database to know registered resources and be able >to contact the responsible people for matters related to that. Show me where it says that. >Even if the whois "rules" don't explicitly mention that, the >GDPR is on top of the whois rules No, it isn't. Regards, rfg _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From chresgoro at gmail.com Thu Jul 29 13:26:26 2021 From: chresgoro at gmail.com (Christian Orozco) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 21:26:26 +0800 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Correction to my previous email In-Reply-To: References: <48274.1627537603@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: Indeed. There seem to be lapses that could have been avoided if only the system is working well. I am not trying to police everyone here but in the previous replies, there are a few who uses sheer sarcasm to deliver their points. While sarcasm is not totally banned, I think it is not always a good base for argumentation as it sometimes lead to mockery. Let us be mindful of the Code of Conduct. I should also mention that it is unjust to hastily generalize every individual who expresses disagreement to a certain point. Thank you! Regards, Christian On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 5:15 PM Erick Joshua Lagon wrote: > I will give Eddy the credit for retracting his mistakes. However, what > bothers me in his statement (in the video), is one: the other means to > acquire funds, what other means is the AFRINIC going to do? I hope that > AFRINIC will be transparent in this accord, for the sake of the Community. > Second, will be the Joint RIR Stability Fund. I have seen that AFRINIC is > the smallest contributor in this stability fund ( > https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/). > The question is, can the AFRINIC contribute as much as their counterparts > to the stability fund? Also, this hiccup in the operations of AFRINIC > should trigger a sense of urgency in them to reform their system in order > to deliver excellent services to their members. > > Regards, > Erick > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 1:47 PM Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: > >> Paul Hjul has posted to this mailing list a number of well-reasoned >> and eloquently articulated arguments that are more than sensible, >> and with which I agree wholeheartedly. The quotes below are not >> among them. >> >> In message < >> CAF4kYpvN-OqTh1-jbC5Kctg4vC6Wum62DtP8aYj+VJ9+V6Kbrw at mail.gmail.com> >> Paul Hjul wrote: >> >> >Hopefully the Board and management will quickly >> >make it very clear that partnership in "building Africa's digital future" >> >means collaboration of a global nature. It means devising consensus and >> >action that is aimed at promoting a true digital future and distancing >> from >> >the deleterious xenophobic and regionalist attitudes and discourse that >> >flares up. >> >> Paul, this is the second time that you have injected these dual epithets, >> "xenophobic" and "regionalist" into the conversation here. I personally >> feel that these terms are both distracting and beneath the otherwise >> admirable level of your discourse. Further, I am not even persuaded >> that the term "regionalist" even is an epithet, even though it is clear >> that you intend us to interpret it that way. >> >> What is the opposite of "regionalist"? "Globalist"? Assuming so, I would >> be more than happy to debate you, ad infinitum, on the question of whether >> "globalism", writ large, has or has not improved the lot of the lower >> classes globally, and specifically in the third world, or whether its >> primary economic effects have been to make mega-billionaries even richer >> to the point where they can now commute to space via their own private >> rocket ships. >> >> Paul, if you're going to trumpet the beneficial effects of globalist >> capitalism, then you had best be prepared also to defend its less >> desirable effects as well. Is it right or proper or fair that a >> poor sharecropper in Kenya should go hungry or that his daughter >> should lose an eye for want of a surgeon, all because speculators in >> New York have decided amongst themselves that the global price of >> bulk coffee should be cut in half this week? >> >> >This brings me back to the fact that the best way to manage the risk >> which >> >is plaguing the organization is to get as much dispute resolution handled >> >outside of potentially organization shattering litigation. >> >> So you are in favor of unilateral disarmament on the part of AFRINIC? >> You want them to go cap in hand to all three of the parties that are >> current suing them and beg for a negotiated settlement in each case? >> >> Maybe we should make you the next U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan. >> >> >The membership >> >simply do not know how many litigants there are knocking at Afrinic >> >> Objection your honor! Speculative. Calls for a conclusion not based on >> the facts in evidence. >> >> I might as well speculate that there are just oodles and oodles of people >> and companies lining up, as we speak, to sue -you-. (How do we know >> there aren't? Can you prove that there aren't any such?) >> >> >but it >> >is quite clear that there are several cases that need to be handled >> >appropriately and to date the organization has crafted an environment >> >favouring a litigious approach. >> >> I'll be blunt. That is utter rubbish. AFRINIC did the Right Thing by >> reclaiming blocks of IP addresses which had been -provably- stolen from >> its free pool. Two of those thieving companies sued, apparently based >> on nothing other than bogus disinformation that they themselves had >> manufactured out of their... well... out of thin air. Nothing AFRINIC >> did in either of those two cases consitutes "crafting an environment >> favouring a litigious approach". That is an utterly false, disingenuous, >> and slanderous claim with no basis in fact and I encourage yoy to retract >> it. >> >> More recently, AFRINIC, acting on information that none of us has yet even >> seen, made a decision to reclaim a great deal of IPv4 space from a >> different >> party. In the wake of that decision, THE OTHER PARTY initiated legal >> action. >> >> Once again, your narrative of AFRINIC "crafting an environment favouring >> a litigious approach" falls flat in the cold light of day and the actual >> facts. >> >> I'm damn glad that you are not the CEO of my bank. It seems that if you >> were, and if the place got robbed, you would just throw up your hands and >> say "Oh well! Boys will be boys!" >> >> If the bank got robbed three times in a row, you would blame it on the >> bank and urge the bank president to sit down in arbitration with the >> various robbers. >> >> We've seen this kind of thing where I live. Not recently but in the past. >> Some people occasionally claim that women who have been molested have only >> themselves to blame because they were wearing skirts that were too short. >> Blame the victim. We don't do this too much here in the U.S. anymore, as >> the practice has been well and widely discredited. The blame now properly >> goes to the perpetrators, NOT to the victims. >> >> Let's be clear about who, exactly, has "crafted an environment favouring >> a litigious approach". AFRINIC is currently facing three legal actions >> against it. Who initiated each and all of those? >> >> I'll give you a hint. It wasn't AFRINIC. >> >> What AFRINIC has done may be right or may be wrong, but AFRINIC is not >> the party that has initiated these legal actions, two of which, at >> least, are based on some of the most provably outrageous frauds ever >> conceived by the mind of man. >> >> It seems however that you want AFRINIC to sit down amicably with those >> thieves and negotiate with them so that they each get to keep half of >> what they have provably stolen. Doing so would only add disgrace to >> dishonor, and I, for one, sincerly hope that AFRINIC does not do so. >> >> >> Regards, >> rfg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Thu Jul 29 15:02:41 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 18:02:41 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <0DC60556-3D2B-46D8-9D91-74BD94D4FC27@delong.com> References: <64DE550F-FDCC-42A7-9D29-7FBB4812CED1@wacren.net> <0DC60556-3D2B-46D8-9D91-74BD94D4FC27@delong.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jul 2021, 05:48 Owen DeLong, wrote: > > I did not deny that a relationship exists. I pointed out that there is no >> evidence presented to indicate that it is anything more than >> customer/supplier. >> > > In the last board elections where Elkins defeated Paul Wolner, there were > multiple resource members who received phone calls from HongKong asking > them to vote for Wolner. > > Check the archives. > > > Which proves that we supported his candidacy because we felt he was well > qualified and would do a good job. > By **we supported** do you mean your employer Larus based in HongKong. If that is what you mean, then case closed...otherwise... > It doesn?t prove that the relationship between CI and AOC is deeper than > customer/supplier. > Lol I like how Owen twists things around. Dude, as long as Paul Wolner and Lu Heng are in business, their relationship is what it is and that explains why you Larus folk where supporting his candidacy. #Danganyatoto I honestly don?t know whether it is or is not, > Look at Owen now lol. but until actual evidence > is presented, I?ll refrain from judgment based on innuendo and speculation. > There is no smoke without fire dude and that is why majority of Southern Africa resource members supported Mark Elkins overwhelmingly based on his win against Wolner. Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Thu Jul 29 15:34:49 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 18:34:49 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Correction to my previous email In-Reply-To: <48274.1627537603@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <48274.1627537603@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jul 2021, 08:50 Ronald F. Guilmette, wrote: > Paul Hjul has posted to this mailing list a number of well-reasoned > and eloquently articulated arguments that are more than sensible, > and with which I agree wholeheartedly. The quotes below are not > among them. > > In message < > CAF4kYpvN-OqTh1-jbC5Kctg4vC6Wum62DtP8aYj+VJ9+V6Kbrw at mail.gmail.com> > Paul Hjul wrote: > > >Hopefully the Board and management will quickly > >make it very clear that partnership in "building Africa's digital future" > >means collaboration of a global nature. It means devising consensus and > >action that is aimed at promoting a true digital future and distancing > from > >the deleterious xenophobic and regionalist attitudes and discourse that > >flares up. > > Paul, this is the second time that you have injected these dual epithets, > "xenophobic" and "regionalist" into the conversation here. I personally > feel that these terms are both distracting and beneath the otherwise > admirable level of your discourse. Further, I am not even persuaded > that the term "regionalist" even is an epithet, even though it is clear > that you intend us to interpret it that way. > > What is the opposite of "regionalist"? "Globalist"? Assuming so, I would > be more than happy to debate you, ad infinitum, on the question of whether > "globalism", writ large, has or has not improved the lot of the lower > classes globally, and specifically in the third world, or whether its > primary economic effects have been to make mega-billionaries even richer > to the point where they can now commute to space via their own private > rocket ships. > > Paul, if you're going to trumpet the beneficial effects of globalist > capitalism, then you had best be prepared also to defend its less > desirable effects as well. Is it right or proper or fair that a > poor sharecropper in Kenya should go hungry or that his daughter > should lose an eye for want of a surgeon, all because speculators in > New York have decided amongst themselves that the global price of > bulk coffee should be cut in half this week? > > >This brings me back to the fact that the best way to manage the risk which > >is plaguing the organization is to get as much dispute resolution handled > >outside of potentially organization shattering litigation. > > So you are in favor of unilateral disarmament on the part of AFRINIC? > You want them to go cap in hand to all three of the parties that are > current suing them and beg for a negotiated settlement in each case? > > Maybe we should make you the next U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan. > > >The membership > >simply do not know how many litigants there are knocking at Afrinic > > Objection your honor! Speculative. Calls for a conclusion not based on > the facts in evidence. > > I might as well speculate that there are just oodles and oodles of people > and companies lining up, as we speak, to sue -you-. (How do we know > there aren't? Can you prove that there aren't any such?) > > >but it > >is quite clear that there are several cases that need to be handled > >appropriately and to date the organization has crafted an environment > >favouring a litigious approach. > > I'll be blunt. That is utter rubbish. AFRINIC did the Right Thing by > reclaiming blocks of IP addresses which had been -provably- stolen from > its free pool. Two of those thieving companies sued, apparently based > on nothing other than bogus disinformation that they themselves had > manufactured out of their... well... out of thin air. Nothing AFRINIC > did in either of those two cases consitutes "crafting an environment > favouring a litigious approach". That is an utterly false, disingenuous, > and slanderous claim with no basis in fact and I encourage yoy to retract > it. > > More recently, AFRINIC, acting on information that none of us has yet even > seen, made a decision to reclaim a great deal of IPv4 space from a > different > party. In the wake of that decision, THE OTHER PARTY initiated legal > action. > > Once again, your narrative of AFRINIC "crafting an environment favouring > a litigious approach" falls flat in the cold light of day and the actual > facts. > > I'm damn glad that you are not the CEO of my bank. It seems that if you > were, and if the place got robbed, you would just throw up your hands and > say "Oh well! Boys will be boys!" > > If the bank got robbed three times in a row, you would blame it on the > bank and urge the bank president to sit down in arbitration with the > various robbers. > > We've seen this kind of thing where I live. Not recently but in the past. > Some people occasionally claim that women who have been molested have only > themselves to blame because they were wearing skirts that were too short. > Blame the victim. We don't do this too much here in the U.S. anymore, as > the practice has been well and widely discredited. The blame now properly > goes to the perpetrators, NOT to the victims. > > Let's be clear about who, exactly, has "crafted an environment favouring > a litigious approach". AFRINIC is currently facing three legal actions > against it. Who initiated each and all of those? > > I'll give you a hint. It wasn't AFRINIC. > > What AFRINIC has done may be right or may be wrong, but AFRINIC is not > the party that has initiated these legal actions, two of which, at > least, are based on some of the most provably outrageous frauds ever > conceived by the mind of man. > > It seems however that you want AFRINIC to sit down amicably with those > thieves and negotiate with them so that they each get to keep half of > what they have provably stolen. Doing so would only add disgrace to > dishonor, and I, for one, sincerly hope that AFRINIC does not do so. > Well thought out submission Ronald. Cheers Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Thu Jul 29 15:45:12 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 18:45:12 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Correction to my previous email In-Reply-To: References: <48274.1627537603@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jul 2021, 12:19 Erick Joshua Lagon, wrote: > However, what bothers me in his statement (in the video), is one: the > other means to acquire funds, what other means is the AFRINIC going to do? > Why do you care? I hope that AFRINIC will be transparent in this accord, for the sake of the > Community. > www.afrinic.net go there and get informed. Second, will be the Joint RIR Stability Fund. I have seen that AFRINIC is > the smallest contributor in this stability fund ( > https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/). > The question is, can the AFRINIC contribute as much as their counterparts > to the stability fund? > Would you rather the so called nra.help contributed or our great NRO system. Also, this hiccup in the operations of AFRINIC should trigger a sense of > urgency > What urgency? There is no rush. in them to reform their system in order to deliver excellent services to > their members. > And that is why we are here. AFRINIC is delivering an excellent service of ACCOUNTABILITY. Cheers, Noah > Regards, > Erick > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 1:47 PM Ronald F. Guilmette > wrote: > >> Paul Hjul has posted to this mailing list a number of well-reasoned >> and eloquently articulated arguments that are more than sensible, >> and with which I agree wholeheartedly. The quotes below are not >> among them. >> >> In message < >> CAF4kYpvN-OqTh1-jbC5Kctg4vC6Wum62DtP8aYj+VJ9+V6Kbrw at mail.gmail.com> >> Paul Hjul wrote: >> >> >Hopefully the Board and management will quickly >> >make it very clear that partnership in "building Africa's digital future" >> >means collaboration of a global nature. It means devising consensus and >> >action that is aimed at promoting a true digital future and distancing >> from >> >the deleterious xenophobic and regionalist attitudes and discourse that >> >flares up. >> >> Paul, this is the second time that you have injected these dual epithets, >> "xenophobic" and "regionalist" into the conversation here. I personally >> feel that these terms are both distracting and beneath the otherwise >> admirable level of your discourse. Further, I am not even persuaded >> that the term "regionalist" even is an epithet, even though it is clear >> that you intend us to interpret it that way. >> >> What is the opposite of "regionalist"? "Globalist"? Assuming so, I would >> be more than happy to debate you, ad infinitum, on the question of whether >> "globalism", writ large, has or has not improved the lot of the lower >> classes globally, and specifically in the third world, or whether its >> primary economic effects have been to make mega-billionaries even richer >> to the point where they can now commute to space via their own private >> rocket ships. >> >> Paul, if you're going to trumpet the beneficial effects of globalist >> capitalism, then you had best be prepared also to defend its less >> desirable effects as well. Is it right or proper or fair that a >> poor sharecropper in Kenya should go hungry or that his daughter >> should lose an eye for want of a surgeon, all because speculators in >> New York have decided amongst themselves that the global price of >> bulk coffee should be cut in half this week? >> >> >This brings me back to the fact that the best way to manage the risk >> which >> >is plaguing the organization is to get as much dispute resolution handled >> >outside of potentially organization shattering litigation. >> >> So you are in favor of unilateral disarmament on the part of AFRINIC? >> You want them to go cap in hand to all three of the parties that are >> current suing them and beg for a negotiated settlement in each case? >> >> Maybe we should make you the next U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan. >> >> >The membership >> >simply do not know how many litigants there are knocking at Afrinic >> >> Objection your honor! Speculative. Calls for a conclusion not based on >> the facts in evidence. >> >> I might as well speculate that there are just oodles and oodles of people >> and companies lining up, as we speak, to sue -you-. (How do we know >> there aren't? Can you prove that there aren't any such?) >> >> >but it >> >is quite clear that there are several cases that need to be handled >> >appropriately and to date the organization has crafted an environment >> >favouring a litigious approach. >> >> I'll be blunt. That is utter rubbish. AFRINIC did the Right Thing by >> reclaiming blocks of IP addresses which had been -provably- stolen from >> its free pool. Two of those thieving companies sued, apparently based >> on nothing other than bogus disinformation that they themselves had >> manufactured out of their... well... out of thin air. Nothing AFRINIC >> did in either of those two cases consitutes "crafting an environment >> favouring a litigious approach". That is an utterly false, disingenuous, >> and slanderous claim with no basis in fact and I encourage yoy to retract >> it. >> >> More recently, AFRINIC, acting on information that none of us has yet even >> seen, made a decision to reclaim a great deal of IPv4 space from a >> different >> party. In the wake of that decision, THE OTHER PARTY initiated legal >> action. >> >> Once again, your narrative of AFRINIC "crafting an environment favouring >> a litigious approach" falls flat in the cold light of day and the actual >> facts. >> >> I'm damn glad that you are not the CEO of my bank. It seems that if you >> were, and if the place got robbed, you would just throw up your hands and >> say "Oh well! Boys will be boys!" >> >> If the bank got robbed three times in a row, you would blame it on the >> bank and urge the bank president to sit down in arbitration with the >> various robbers. >> >> We've seen this kind of thing where I live. Not recently but in the past. >> Some people occasionally claim that women who have been molested have only >> themselves to blame because they were wearing skirts that were too short. >> Blame the victim. We don't do this too much here in the U.S. anymore, as >> the practice has been well and widely discredited. The blame now properly >> goes to the perpetrators, NOT to the victims. >> >> Let's be clear about who, exactly, has "crafted an environment favouring >> a litigious approach". AFRINIC is currently facing three legal actions >> against it. Who initiated each and all of those? >> >> I'll give you a hint. It wasn't AFRINIC. >> >> What AFRINIC has done may be right or may be wrong, but AFRINIC is not >> the party that has initiated these legal actions, two of which, at >> least, are based on some of the most provably outrageous frauds ever >> conceived by the mind of man. >> >> It seems however that you want AFRINIC to sit down amicably with those >> thieves and negotiate with them so that they each get to keep half of >> what they have provably stolen. Doing so would only add disgrace to >> dishonor, and I, for one, sincerly hope that AFRINIC does not do so. >> >> >> Regards, >> rfg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Thu Jul 29 16:06:06 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 19:06:06 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <49114.1627550267@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <49114.1627550267@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jul 2021, 12:22 Ronald F. Guilmette, wrote: > In message < > CAEqgTWZqmrDEGeW2v67hro+4idYfdm_n6wZXyBbYjBm9z0XV5g at mail.gmail.com> > Noah wrote: > > >On Thu, 29 Jul 2021, 01:44 Ronald F. Guilmette, > wrote: > >> In my view, these allegations were never proven, and even if they > >> were, so what? > > > >Association. > > > >Do ARIN members receive phone calls from Hongkong asking the resource > >members to vote for a specific ARIC AC member as an example? > > If they did, then I guarantee you that nobody would much care. > The same needs to be the case in AFRINIC region. That no one should care. > > Free advice: Let it go Noah. You're trying to make a mountain out of > a mole hill, and there are rather bigger things going on right now. > I rest my case. Noah > > Regards, > rfg > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net Thu Jul 29 20:49:07 2021 From: paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net (Paul Wollner) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 22:49:07 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] STATEMENT OF TANZANIA ISP ASSOCIATION (TISPA) -        Regarding AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7846a$41c5a270$c550e750$@tispa.or.tz> Message-ID: <17af40726bd.c1a468ac340728.5536230081885576908@africaoncloud.net> Noah, TISPA does not in anyway express their support for AFRINIC?s litigation, your message is highly misleading. They are however merely expressing concerns for the continuity of AFRINIC service, and as AFRINIC said themselves and expressed in NRO website, the other four RIR's will ensure core registration service remain as it is, so even AFRINIC?s bankruptcy will not result in any disruption of its service. No ISP or end user will be impacted. As AFRINIC is currently charging the highest fees among RIRs, if any of the other four RIR's would take over, surely this benefits African ISPs and ultimately, end users, with lower RIR fees and a better more stable service? I for one call that at this stage, AFRINIC should be seriously looking into ways transition it?s service to other RIRs to mitigate the risk that they have mentioned today to the press. Regards Paul Wollner ---- On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 20:32:13 +0200 Noah wrote ---- Dear Members/AFRINIC Please find attached the statement of the Tanzania Internet Service Providers Association (TISPA) in support of AFRINIC in the wake of AFRINIC bank accounts being frozen which is a concern that resonates with us.? NOTE: TISPA is an AFRINIC Member and also represents 22 AFRINIC Resource Members in Tanzania who are TISPA Members. Link to the statement is also available online on the link below. https://tispa.or.tz/news/statement-of-tanzania-isp-association-tispa-regarding-afrinic Cheers, Noah _______________________________________________ Members-Discuss mailing list mailto:Members-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amelnaud at gmail.com Thu Jul 29 21:03:00 2021 From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 21:03:00 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] STATEMENT OF TANZANIA ISP ASSOCIATION (TISPA) -        Regarding AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <17af40726bd.c1a468ac340728.5536230081885576908@africaoncloud.net> References: <000901d7846a$41c5a270$c550e750$@tispa.or.tz> <17af40726bd.c1a468ac340728.5536230081885576908@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Ahahahahahahahah......Paul, Paul, Paul... Le jeu. 29 juil. 2021 ? 20:52, Paul Wollner a ?crit : > Noah, > > TISPA does not in anyway express their support for AFRINIC?s litigation, > your message is highly misleading. > > They are however merely expressing concerns for the continuity of AFRINIC > service, and as AFRINIC said themselves and expressed in NRO website, the > other four RIR's will ensure core registration service remain as it is, so > even AFRINIC?s bankruptcy will not result in any disruption of its service. > No ISP or end user will be impacted. > > As AFRINIC is currently charging the highest fees among RIRs, if any of > the other four RIR's would take over, surely this benefits African ISPs and > ultimately, end users, with lower RIR fees and a better more stable service? > > I for one call that at this stage, AFRINIC should be seriously looking > into ways transition it?s service to other RIRs to mitigate the risk that > they have mentioned today to the press. > Dans tes r?ves oui. Jusque-l? rien est encore dit, et tu tire des conclusions h?tives, dans le format th?orie du Chaos ??? ?a n'aura pas lieu. Mais c'est ton droit de r?ver, continues dans tes r?ves . Bon courage -- Arnaud > Regards > Paul Wollner > > > > ---- On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 20:32:13 +0200 *Noah >* wrote ---- > > Dear Members/AFRINIC > > Please find attached the statement of the Tanzania Internet Service > Providers Association (*TISPA*) in support of AFRINIC in the wake of > AFRINIC bank accounts being frozen which is a concern that resonates with > us. > > *NOTE*: TISPA is an AFRINIC Member and also represents 22 AFRINIC > Resource Members in Tanzania who are TISPA Members. > > Link to the statement is also available online on the link below. > > > https://tispa.or.tz/news/statement-of-tanzania-isp-association-tispa-regarding-afrinic > > Cheers, > *Noah* > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net Thu Jul 29 21:12:38 2021 From: paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net (Paul Wollner) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 23:12:38 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= Message-ID: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and especially by AFRINIC's? own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC?s inability to keep providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its financial requirements. I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC?s core registry service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC?s registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some time later. (https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/) That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come out of litigation. Regards Paul Wollner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Journal jeudi 29 juillet-pages-2.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1640892 bytes Desc: not available URL: From amelnaud at gmail.com Thu Jul 29 21:23:29 2021 From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 21:23:29 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Le jeu. 29 juil. 2021 ? 21:16, Paul Wollner a ?crit : > The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and > especially by AFRINIC's own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, > which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC?s inability to keep > providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its > financial requirements. > > I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's > hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC?s core registry > service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as > well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC?s > registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some > time later. ( > https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/ > ) > Comme je l'ai ?crit tout ? l'heure, cette requ?te se fera dans tes r?ves. Il n'y a pour le moment aucune urgence ? l'horizon, ceux qui doivent s'inqui?ter sont ceux qui intentent des proc?s contre Afrinic. > > That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come > out of litigation. > ?a n'arrivera pas ... > Regards > Paul Wollner > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net Thu Jul 29 21:38:32 2021 From: paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net (Paul Wollner) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 23:38:32 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: <17af4346477.12b89fc82346837.8550228416205902171@africaoncloud.net> Apologies for the duplicate post, but the initial posting was too large.? The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and especially by AFRINIC's? own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, which is available at https://ibb.co/tmWCk0k, regarding the AFRINIC?s inability to keep providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its financial requirements. I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC?s core registry service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC?s registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some time later. (https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/) That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come out of litigation. Regards Paul Wollner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Thu Jul 29 21:38:31 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 00:38:31 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] STATEMENT OF TANZANIA ISP ASSOCIATION (TISPA) -        Regarding AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <17af40726bd.c1a468ac340728.5536230081885576908@africaoncloud.net> References: <000901d7846a$41c5a270$c550e750$@tispa.or.tz> <17af40726bd.c1a468ac340728.5536230081885576908@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Paul, On Thu, 29 Jul 2021, 23:49 Paul Wollner, wrote: > Noah, > > TISPA does not in anyway express their support for AFRINIC?s litigation, > Don't get it twisted by inserting the word "litigation". > your message is highly misleading. > Nothing misleading Our support of *solidarity* is with AFRINIC. We state the facts as to what AFRINIC is to this service region. We conclude as below in our STATEMENT. *Any impact of the services of AFRINIC would have a much larger impact on Internet communication in Africa.While the legal proceedings should take their due course, we would humbly like to suggest that no actions are taken that can impact the operation of AFRINIC as the registry of Internet Numbering Resources (IP addresses and ASNs) or can impact AFRINIC?s function of publishing the associated data.TISPA is an AFRINIC member and also represents 22 AFRINIC Resource members in Tanzania who are TISPA members.* Cheers, Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Thu Jul 29 22:18:57 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 01:18:57 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 12:19 AM Paul Wollner < paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net> wrote: > The concerns expressed by TISPA, > TISPA's support of *solidarity* is with AFRINIC. AFRINIC is our concern. We shall stand with her. I call upon all ISP Associations across AFRICA to stand with AFRINIC. Cheers, Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Thu Jul 29 23:47:51 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:47:51 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <63009ED1-95AB-4863-8DD8-213BFFEAD9D2@consulintel.es> Message-ID: <52264.1627602471@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message <63009ED1-95AB-4863-8DD8-213BFFEAD9D2 at consulintel.es>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >You don't think that any national law, in this case in Mauritius >(which have an equivalent to the GDPR), is on top of organization rules? No, I don't. You're confused Jordi. Do you really think that just by sitting here in California and using the AFRINIC WHOIS server, I have subjected myself to the jurisdiction of Mauritius?? If so, I challenge you to prove it by citing some actual cases that have been adjudicated to that effect. Do you have any actual precedents to back up your claims? Any at all? Regards, rfg From rfg at tristatelogic.com Fri Jul 30 00:52:42 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:52:42 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] The Contract In-Reply-To: <17af40726bd.c1a468ac340728.5536230081885576908@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: <52534.1627606362@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message <17af40726bd.c1a468ac340728.5536230081885576908 at africaoncloud.net>, Paul Wollner wrote: >I for one call that at this stage, AFRINIC should be seriously looking into >ways transition it's service to other RIRs to mitigate the risk that >they have mentioned today to the press. Press? What press? Well, anyway, we can come back to that later. For now, I just wanted to suggest that before we call the undertaker and florist and start ordering the funeral arrangements, maybe Paul could answer a simple question for me... Spcifically, I am hoping that Paul may be able to tell us all how Cloud Innovantion's actions... at least the ones that are not disputed in any way... comport with the plain language of Section 4(c)(i) of the AFRINIC Registration Services Agreement (RSA): https://afrinic.net/ast/pdf/services/afrinic-rsa-en-201801.pdf Paul, if you would be so kind, that would be most enlightening. Regards, rfg From owen at delong.com Fri Jul 30 01:11:37 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 18:11:37 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <46680.1627511870@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 28, 2021, at 22:37 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote: > > Hi Ronald, > > I disagree. At a minimum they were against the equivalent to the GDPR in Mauritius, as they used information collected from whois, mail exploders, etc., for a different purpose that the one agreed. This incorporates a lot of assumptions about where and how the data was obtained. It also grants some interesting extraterritorial jurisdiction to Mauritius to go after actors in Hong Kong for violating Mauritian Law by placing calls to countries outside of Mauritius. (based on the previous claims that the calls originated in Hong Kong). > I can publish my email and phone in any public mailing list (or whois), but you need my explicit and previous consent for using it for different purposes. Many similar cases have been fined by the DPAs. I recognize that?s what the EU law says. I?m not convinced one way or the other as to how much you can enforce that EU law in Hong Kong. I?m also not convinced that it even applies when the target of the call is not within EU or MU (which has a similar law). Many jurisdictions have quite different laws on the subject. In the US, for example, calls of that nature, lobbying for an election, are considered to be protected free speech, not subject to those limitations. > Also, it is against the usage terms of the whois and CoC. I?m not seeing where it?s against the CoC, but I agree that it could be against the ToU for WHOIS if you can prove the data was harvested from WHOIS and not another source. Owen From owen at delong.com Fri Jul 30 01:12:43 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 18:12:43 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <2364449.J7VWoQ3GvX@coffee-bar> References: <46680.1627511870@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <2364449.J7VWoQ3GvX@coffee-bar> Message-ID: <0A16A608-16B0-478B-A8FD-775D8D565A2F@delong.com> > On Jul 29, 2021, at 00:02 , Ish Sookun via Community-Discuss wrote: > > Hi Ronald, > > On Thursday, 29 July 2021 02:37:50 +04 Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: >> (And indeed, we here in the U.S. >> are routinely inundated with such calls on a daily basis, starting >> generally about two months before each local or national election.) > > Americans accept to be inundated with election lobbyists on phone on daily > basis? And they do nothing to stop it? For better or worse, it is protected under the first amendment (Freedom of Speech) which does create some unpleasant things, but is widely tolerated because of the safety valve created as a result. Owen From geier at geier.ne.tz Fri Jul 30 04:42:44 2021 From: geier at geier.ne.tz (Frank Habicht) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:42:44 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] STATEMENT OF TANZANIA ISP ASSOCIATION (TISPA) - Regarding AFRINIC In-Reply-To: <17af40726bd.c1a468ac340728.5536230081885576908@africaoncloud.net> References: <000901d7846a$41c5a270$c550e750$@tispa.or.tz> <17af40726bd.c1a468ac340728.5536230081885576908@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: You know what I think: On 29/07/2021 23:49, Paul Wollner wrote: > ... > I for one call that at this stage, AFRINIC should be seriously looking > into ways transition it?s service to other RIRs to mitigate the risk > that they have mentioned today to the press. Destroying it rather than fixing it, you want. Frank being frank From jaberamatogoro at gmail.com Fri Jul 30 06:37:20 2021 From: jaberamatogoro at gmail.com (Matogoro Jabera) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:37:20 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] STATEMENT OF TANZANIA ISP ASSOCIATION (TISPA) -        Regarding AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7846a$41c5a270$c550e750$@tispa.or.tz> <17af40726bd.c1a468ac340728.5536230081885576908@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: I am sending my congratulations to TISPA for showing the way. This has been our spirit since then, we will always be there for any initiative designed to impact African Independence to its matter. "The role of Tanzania in fostering African Liberation movements The emergence of organised popular liberation movements throughout Africa following the end of the Second World War was a crucial factor in achieving independence for many African countries. Tanzania played an important role in assisting these movements and acted as a consistent opponent of colonial rule in Africa. In particular, Julius Nyerere ? the architect of Tanzania?s independence and the country?s first President ? was a key figure in the struggle against foreign domination, and helped to popularise the concept of Pan-African unity." Africa should remember, there are still many Julius Nyerere in Tanzania. We stand with Afrinic and we will be against anyone supporting any movement to negatively impact the operation of AFRINIC. Read, The African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) is a Regional Internet Registry (RIR) for Africa and the Indian Ocean region, AFRINIC is responsible for the distribution and management of Internet number resources. Regards, --- MATOGORO Jabhera Assistant Lecturer and Coordinator for Research & Publication Department of Computer Science and Engineering College of Informatics and Virtual Education The University of Dodoma Website: www.udom.ac.tz On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 12:39 AM Noah wrote: > Paul, > > On Thu, 29 Jul 2021, 23:49 Paul Wollner, > wrote: > >> Noah, >> >> TISPA does not in anyway express their support for AFRINIC?s litigation, >> > > Don't get it twisted by inserting the word "litigation". > > >> your message is highly misleading. >> > > Nothing misleading > > Our support of *solidarity* is with AFRINIC. We state the facts as to > what AFRINIC is to this service region. We conclude as below in our > STATEMENT. > > > > > > > *Any impact of the services of AFRINIC would have a much larger impact on > Internet communication in Africa.While the legal proceedings should take > their due course, we would humbly like to suggest that no actions are taken > that can impact the operation of AFRINIC as the registry of Internet > Numbering Resources (IP addresses and ASNs) or can impact AFRINIC?s > function of publishing the associated data.TISPA is an AFRINIC member and > also represents 22 AFRINIC Resource members in Tanzania who are TISPA > members.* > Cheers, > Noah > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jaberamatogoro at gmail.com Fri Jul 30 06:46:11 2021 From: jaberamatogoro at gmail.com (Matogoro Jabera) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:46:11 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] STATEMENT OF TANZANIA ISP ASSOCIATION (TISPA) - Regarding AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7846a$41c5a270$c550e750$@tispa.or.tz> <17af40726bd.c1a468ac340728.5536230081885576908@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: I am sending my congratulations to TISPA for showing the way. This has been our spirit since then, we will always be there for any initiative designed to impact African Independence and to be specific in the support of AFRINIC. "The role of Tanzania in fostering African Liberation movements The emergence of organised popular liberation movements throughout Africa following the end of the Second World War was a crucial factor in achieving independence for many African countries. Tanzania played an important role in assisting these movements and acted as a consistent opponent of colonial rule in Africa. In particular, Julius Nyerere ? the architect of Tanzania?s independence and the country?s first President ? was a key figure in the struggle against foreign domination, and helped to popularise the concept of Pan-African unity." Africa should remember, there are still many Julius Nyerere in Tanzania. We stand with Afrinic and we will be against anyone supporting any movement to negatively impact the operation of AFRINIC. Read, The African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) is a Regional Internet Registry (RIR) for Africa and the Indian Ocean region, AFRINIC is responsible for the distribution and management of Internet number resources. Regards, --- MATOGORO Jabhera Assistant Lecturer and Coordinator for Research & Publication Department of Computer Science and Engineering College of Informatics and Virtual Education The University of Dodoma Website: www.udom.ac.tz On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 7:43 AM Frank Habicht wrote: > You know what I think: > > On 29/07/2021 23:49, Paul Wollner wrote: > > ... > > I for one call that at this stage, AFRINIC should be seriously looking > > into ways transition it?s service to other RIRs to mitigate the risk > > that they have mentioned today to the press. > > Destroying it rather than fixing it, you want. > > > Frank > being frank > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jaberamatogoro at gmail.com Fri Jul 30 06:46:40 2021 From: jaberamatogoro at gmail.com (Matogoro Jabera) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:46:40 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: I am sending my congratulations to TISPA for showing the way. This has been our spirit since then, we will always be there for any initiative designed to impact African Independence and to be specific in the support of AFRINIC. "The role of Tanzania in fostering African Liberation movements The emergence of organised popular liberation movements throughout Africa following the end of the Second World War was a crucial factor in achieving independence for many African countries. Tanzania played an important role in assisting these movements and acted as a consistent opponent of colonial rule in Africa. In particular, Julius Nyerere ? the architect of Tanzania?s independence and the country?s first President ? was a key figure in the struggle against foreign domination, and helped to popularise the concept of Pan-African unity." Africa should remember, there are still many Julius Nyerere in Tanzania. We stand with Afrinic and we will be against anyone supporting any movement to negatively impact the operation of AFRINIC. Read, The African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) is a Regional Internet Registry (RIR) for Africa and the Indian Ocean region, AFRINIC is responsible for the distribution and management of Internet number resources. Regards, --- MATOGORO Jabhera Assistant Lecturer and Coordinator for Research & Publication Department of Computer Science and Engineering College of Informatics and Virtual Education The University of Dodoma Website: www.udom.ac.tz On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 1:19 AM Noah wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 12:19 AM Paul Wollner < > paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net> wrote: > >> The concerns expressed by TISPA, >> > > TISPA's support of *solidarity* is with AFRINIC. AFRINIC is our concern. > We shall stand with her. > > I call upon all ISP Associations across AFRICA to stand with AFRINIC. > > Cheers, > Noah > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jaberamatogoro at gmail.com Fri Jul 30 06:48:17 2021 From: jaberamatogoro at gmail.com (Matogoro Jabera) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:48:17 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C@delong.com> <38677.1627374556@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: I am sending my congratulations to TISPA for showing the way. This has been our spirit since then, we will always be there for any initiative designed to impact African Independence and to be specific in the support of AFRINIC. "The role of Tanzania in fostering African Liberation movements The emergence of organised popular liberation movements throughout Africa following the end of the Second World War was a crucial factor in achieving independence for many African countries. Tanzania played an important role in assisting these movements and acted as a consistent opponent of colonial rule in Africa. In particular, Julius Nyerere ? the architect of Tanzania?s independence and the country?s first President ? was a key figure in the struggle against foreign domination, and helped to popularise the concept of Pan-African unity." Africa should remember, there are still many Julius Nyerere in Tanzania. We stand with Afrinic and we will be against anyone supporting any movement to negatively impact the operation of AFRINIC. Read, The African Network Information Centre (AFRINIC) is a Regional Internet Registry (RIR) for Africa and the Indian Ocean region, AFRINIC is responsible for the distribution and management of Internet number resources. Regards, --- MATOGORO Jabhera Assistant Lecturer and Coordinator for Research & Publication Department of Computer Science and Engineering College of Informatics and Virtual Education The University of Dodoma Website: www.udom.ac.tz On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 12:48 PM Ali Hussein wrote: > I have been following this saga for a few days now and I can't help but > wonder (And this is aside from discussing the case of Cloud Innovation and > AfriNIC) I want to address the process of Mauritian law. > > How does a court in Mauritius freeze the bank accounts of another company > through ex parte proceedings? For those who might not understand what I > mean - *ex parte is **done with respect to or in the interests of one > side only or of an interested outside party. *This is a basic tenet in > law. Was Afrinic given an opportunity to defend itself before these orders > to freeze its accounts were given? Or were summons given and Afrinic > ignored them? > > If the former is true then maybe it's time to address the issue of the > domicility of Afrinic. Maybe Mauritius is too hostile for a > Pan-African-based organization. How else do you interpreter this? A court > giving an unprecedented ex parte ruling against an African Organization in > favor of a Hongkong-based organization who we are all clear is a purveyor > of African IP Addresses to organizations outside of Africa as its core > business model. > > Let's put aside all this hullabaloo of ohh...The board didn't do > this...Oooh the board should have done this! and let's address the elephant > in the room. Everything else is a sideshow. > > > *Ali Hussein* > > Digital Transformation > > > Tel: +254 713 601113 > > Twitter: @AliHKassim > > Skype: abu-jomo > > LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim > > > > > > Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely > mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the > organizations that I work with. > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 11:31 AM Ronald F. Guilmette < > rfg at tristatelogic.com> wrote: > >> In message <9C433F54-9167-45D9-8B3C-F50998E6E32C at delong.com>, >> Owen DeLong wrote: >> >> >> That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen. >> > >> >Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by >> >Respondent to Petitioner. >> > >> >I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it. >> >> Well, no offense Owen, but I also have in my posession a document that >> definitively proves that you are Satan. I would like to share that >> with everyone, but my lawyer won't let me. Until he does however >> I think that everyone should just take it on faith, because I'm >> always right and I never lie. >> :-) >> >> >> Regards, >> rfg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Fri Jul 30 06:53:30 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 08:53:30 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <52264.1627602471@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <63009ED1-95AB-4863-8DD8-213BFFEAD9D2@consulintel.es> <52264.1627602471@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: I understand what you mean, but is not so simple ... I don't know Mauritius, but if the justice system works there and you fail to pay to a DPA fine, and there is not a reciprocal specific with US, do you believe you will be able to come to Mauritius without risking detention or do business with local entities? May be Mauritius is too small and you don't care, but what about the EU? Do you know that many fines imposed, for example fines about traffic, have reciprocity agreements among many countries so they can be sized from your accounts or even prosecuted via freezing of your properties? Regards, Jordi @jordipalet ?El 30/7/21 1:50, "Ronald F. Guilmette" escribi?: In message <63009ED1-95AB-4863-8DD8-213BFFEAD9D2 at consulintel.es>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >You don't think that any national law, in this case in Mauritius >(which have an equivalent to the GDPR), is on top of organization rules? No, I don't. You're confused Jordi. Do you really think that just by sitting here in California and using the AFRINIC WHOIS server, I have subjected myself to the jurisdiction of Mauritius?? If so, I challenge you to prove it by citing some actual cases that have been adjudicated to that effect. Do you have any actual precedents to back up your claims? Any at all? Regards, rfg _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Fri Jul 30 08:33:16 2021 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 08:33:16 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] STATEMENT OF TANZANIA ISP ASSOCIATION (TISPA) -        Regarding AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7846a$41c5a270$c550e750$@tispa.or.tz> <17af40726bd.c1a468ac340728.5536230081885576908@africaoncloud.net>, Message-ID: Noah - let me just be clear on something. Do you claim to speak for TISPA and all its members? Are you claiming that all TISPA members endorse AfriNIC and it?s behavior in this matter? I just want clarification on this? Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Noah Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 12:38:31 AM To: Paul Wollner Cc: Community Discuss ; AfriNIC Discuss Subject: Re: [members-discuss] STATEMENT OF TANZANIA ISP ASSOCIATION (TISPA) -        Regarding AFRINIC Paul, On Thu, 29 Jul 2021, 23:49 Paul Wollner, > wrote: Noah, TISPA does not in anyway express their support for AFRINIC?s litigation, Don't get it twisted by inserting the word "litigation". your message is highly misleading. Nothing misleading Our support of solidarity is with AFRINIC. We state the facts as to what AFRINIC is to this service region. We conclude as below in our STATEMENT. Any impact of the services of AFRINIC would have a much larger impact on Internet communication in Africa. While the legal proceedings should take their due course, we would humbly like to suggest that no actions are taken that can impact the operation of AFRINIC as the registry of Internet Numbering Resources (IP addresses and ASNs) or can impact AFRINIC?s function of publishing the associated data. TISPA is an AFRINIC member and also represents 22 AFRINIC Resource members in Tanzania who are TISPA members. Cheers, Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ish at lsldigital.com Fri Jul 30 08:46:32 2021 From: ish at lsldigital.com (Ish Sookun) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:46:32 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <52264.1627602471@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <52264.1627602471@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <6461148.bqoun3lxAu@coffee-bar> Hi Ronald, On Friday, 30 July 2021 03:47:51 +04 Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > You're confused Jordi. Do you really think that just by sitting here > in California and using the AFRINIC WHOIS server, I have subjected > myself to the jurisdiction of Mauritius?? I believe by using a service offered by an organisation within the Mauritian jurisdiction makes it so that your data is treated under Mauritian laws. Jordi is right to say that the national law is on top of organisation rules. Regards, Ish Sookun From rfg at tristatelogic.com Fri Jul 30 08:51:14 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 01:51:14 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <54238.1627635074@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >I understand what you mean, but is not so simple ... I don't know >Mauritius, but if the justice system works there ... Who claimed that the justice system works there? A police report was filed more than a year and a half ago about Ernest's huge and fully proven embezzlement scheme, which amounted to tens of millions of dollars worth of stuff. Has he been arested? Has he even been charged with a single crime in Mauritius? And yet you think that the Mauritian police and courts have nothing better to do than to enforce the Mauritian version of GDPR against people who -allegedly- "mis-used" a handful of phone numbers obtained from the *public* WHOIS?!?! Jordi, you're a nice guy, and I like you, but you could benefit from a bit more perspective about what's important and what isn't. Nobody give a bleep about the possible mis-use of a handful of phone numbers... nobnody in Mauritius and nobody anyplace else. In the grand scheme of things it's like worrying about a hangnail as you are bleeding to death. Regards, rfg From ish at lsldigital.com Fri Jul 30 08:57:37 2021 From: ish at lsldigital.com (Ish Sookun) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:57:37 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_Call_for_AFRI?= =?utf-8?q?NIC=E2=80=99s_registry_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: <1868169.JfZmEk4BxV@coffee-bar> Hi Paul, On Friday, 30 July 2021 01:12:38 +04 Paul Wollner wrote: > I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's > hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC?s core registry > service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as > well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC?s > registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some > time later. > (https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-> fund/) ? we should urgently call for NRO.... ? Who is we? Regards, -- Ish Sookun From rfg at tristatelogic.com Fri Jul 30 09:04:37 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 02:04:37 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <6461148.bqoun3lxAu@coffee-bar> Message-ID: <54328.1627635877@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message <6461148.bqoun3lxAu at coffee-bar>, Ish Sookun wrote: >On Friday, 30 July 2021 03:47:51 +04 Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: >> You're confused Jordi. Do you really think that just by sitting here >> in California and using the AFRINIC WHOIS server, I have subjected >> myself to the jurisdiction of Mauritius?? > >I believe by using a service offered by an organisation within the Mauritian >jurisdiction makes it so that your data is treated under Mauritian laws. > >Jordi is right to say that the national law is on top of organisation rules. Are you an attorney? Are you licenced to practice law in Mauritius? Can you show me the black letter case law that supports your beliefs? Assuming that the answer to all three questions is "no" then your opinion on this matter has no more weight or validity than mine. Besides which, you are utterly ignoring the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 19, which takes precedence over Mauritian law. https://www.un.org/sites/un2.un.org/files/udhr.pdf Regards, rfg From ish at lsldigital.com Fri Jul 30 09:09:46 2021 From: ish at lsldigital.com (Ish Sookun) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 13:09:46 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <54238.1627635074@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <54238.1627635074@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <4481665.530p7BW3sl@coffee-bar> Hi Ronald, On Friday, 30 July 2021 12:51:14 +04 Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > A police report was filed more than a year and a half ago about Ernest's > huge and fully proven embezzlement scheme, which amounted to tens of > millions of dollars worth of stuff. Has he been arested? Has he even > been charged with a single crime in Mauritius? I do not know specific details about the case. However, I believe he would have been charged ? provisionally ? and if he got bail, there would have been restrictions on travel, under the current practice by the police. Again, I do not know specific details about what plaint was lodged, what was written, etc. Regards, -- Ish Sookun From ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu Fri Jul 30 09:16:32 2021 From: ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu (Ish Sookun) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 13:16:32 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <54328.1627635877@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <54328.1627635877@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: <271282903.IiIuvKT24Q@coffee-bar> Hi Ronald, On Friday, 30 July 2021 13:04:37 +04 Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > Assuming that the answer to all three questions is "no" then your opinion > on this matter has no more weight or validity than mine. I didn't say my words are truer than yours. I expressed what I believe and I believe Jordi is right in his statement. At least so until a Mauritian court or legal precedent proves it wrong. Regards, Ish Sookun From noah at neo.co.tz Fri Jul 30 10:41:20 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 13:41:20 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] STATEMENT OF TANZANIA ISP ASSOCIATION (TISPA) -        Regarding AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7846a$41c5a270$c550e750$@tispa.or.tz> <17af40726bd.c1a468ac340728.5536230081885576908@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, 11:33 Andrew Alston, wrote: > Noah - let me just be clear on something. > > Do you claim to speak for TISPA and all its members? > Read the statement. Are you claiming that all TISPA members endorse AfriNIC and it?s behavior > in this matter? > Read the statement. > I just want clarification on this? > Read the TISPA statement. Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Fri Jul 30 11:05:59 2021 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 11:05:59 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] STATEMENT OF TANZANIA ISP ASSOCIATION (TISPA) -        Regarding AFRINIC In-Reply-To: References: <000901d7846a$41c5a270$c550e750$@tispa.or.tz> <17af40726bd.c1a468ac340728.5536230081885576908@africaoncloud.net> , Message-ID: So - while you seem certainly capable of spinning narrative and typing pages of stuff to fill my inbox - you seem incapable of addressing some pretty simple questions - that had nothing to do with the statement but rather the consistent use of words like ?Our? and ?We? etc etc in reference to said statement. Now - let me say this - I do not believe that at this point it is correct to ascribe support - or lack there of - for any legal position - to any company or organization without their explicit approval for such. And I know for a fact that such does not exist in the case of every TISPA member - on either the approve or disapprove side. Furthermore Noah - while I 100% agree with Paul that the statement in so far as it expresses concern about disruption is 100% fine - I take exception to you spinning it into an endorsement of AfriNIC behavior which it plainly wasn?t Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Noah Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 1:41:20 PM To: Andrew Alston Cc: Paul Wollner ; Community Discuss ; AfriNIC Discuss Subject: Re: [members-discuss] STATEMENT OF TANZANIA ISP ASSOCIATION (TISPA) -        Regarding AFRINIC On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, 11:33 Andrew Alston, > wrote: Noah - let me just be clear on something. Do you claim to speak for TISPA and all its members? Read the statement. Are you claiming that all TISPA members endorse AfriNIC and it?s behavior in this matter? Read the statement. I just want clarification on this? Read the TISPA statement. Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Fri Jul 30 11:35:38 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 14:35:38 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] South Africa ISPA Statement on Recent AFRINIC developments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Members and the wider AFRICAN Community. I note that the ISP Association of South Africa has made a public statement as well following TISPA'S public statement on recent AFRINIC developments. I thought it was important to share the same with the rest of you in case you missed this important message since ISPA South Africa represents the large voice of AFRINIC members in South Africa. So for those who are trying to show doubt that there is a loss of confidence in AFRINIC, the statement from ISPA-ZA should show you all that the industry representative body for ISPs in South Africa does not suffer from a loss of faith in AFRINIC. You can read the important statement via the link below. https://ispa.org.za/press_releases/ispa-statement-on-recent-afrinic-developments/ *Cheers,* *Noah* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From oloyede.aa at unilorin.edu.ng Fri Jul 30 17:44:09 2021 From: oloyede.aa at unilorin.edu.ng (ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 18:44:09 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Dear Paul, I am surprised by this. Why would you think it is in anyone's interest for AFRINIC to close shop. I can't imagine that. AFRINIC has come to stay like any of the other RIRs. Mistakes might have been made who knows ? but am sure it's not the end of the world. Things can still be corrected and we end up with a win-win. AK On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 10:16 PM Paul Wollner < paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net> wrote: > The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and > especially by AFRINIC's own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, > which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC?s inability to keep > providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its > financial requirements. > > I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's > hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC?s core registry > service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as > well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC?s > registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some > time later. ( > https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/ > ) > > That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come > out of litigation. > > Regards > Paul Wollner > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -- Website ,?Weekly Bulletin ?UGPortal PGPortal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sami.salih at outlook.com Fri Jul 30 18:49:36 2021 From: sami.salih at outlook.com (Sami Salih) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 18:49:36 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] South Africa ISPA Statement on Recent AFRINIC developments In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Thanks Noah this is really important, we need to know who is supporting our organization in this hard time. Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: Noah Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 2:35:38 PM To: AfriNIC Discuss ; General Discussions of AFRINIC Subject: [Community-Discuss] South Africa ISPA Statement on Recent AFRINIC developments Dear Members and the wider AFRICAN Community. I note that the ISP Association of South Africa has made a public statement as well following TISPA'S public statement on recent AFRINIC developments. I thought it was important to share the same with the rest of you in case you missed this important message since ISPA South Africa represents the large voice of AFRINIC members in South Africa. So for those who are trying to show doubt that there is a loss of confidence in AFRINIC, the statement from ISPA-ZA should show you all that the industry representative body for ISPs in South Africa does not suffer from a loss of faith in AFRINIC. You can read the important statement via the link below. https://ispa.org.za/press_releases/ispa-statement-on-recent-afrinic-developments/ Cheers, Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Fri Jul 30 20:05:29 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 13:05:29 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <63009ED1-95AB-4863-8DD8-213BFFEAD9D2@consulintel.es> <52264.1627602471@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 29, 2021, at 23:53 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote: > > I understand what you mean, but is not so simple ... I don't know Mauritius, but if the justice system works there and you fail to pay to a DPA fine, and there is not a reciprocal specific with US, do you believe you will be able to come to Mauritius without risking detention or do business with local entities? > > May be Mauritius is too small and you don't care, but what about the EU? > > Do you know that many fines imposed, for example fines about traffic, have reciprocity agreements among many countries so they can be sized from your accounts or even prosecuted via freezing of your properties? As I understand it, this is relatively uncommon in Africa. Food for thought. Owen From noah at neo.co.tz Fri Jul 30 21:02:31 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 00:02:31 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D_Call_for_AFRI?= =?utf-8?q?NIC=E2=80=99s_registry_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: <1868169.JfZmEk4BxV@coffee-bar> References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> <1868169.JfZmEk4BxV@coffee-bar> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 12:02 PM Ish Sookun via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > Hi Paul, > > On Friday, 30 July 2021 01:12:38 +04 Paul Wollner wrote: > > I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's > > hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC?s core registry > > service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as > > well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC?s > > registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some > > time later. > > ( > https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-> > fund/) > > ? we should urgently call for NRO.... ? > > Who is we? > I assume he means folk who are into IPv4 leasing business. A similar desperate move was pulled on Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 10:58 PM. There was also a Facebook post also about the said rant in 2018 by you know who. Cheers, Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Fri Jul 30 21:11:25 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 00:11:25 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__Call_for_AFR?= =?utf-8?q?INIC=E2=80=99s_registry_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: <4C7A6B14-7360-4136-BF10-ACC249F07F30@pch.net> References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> <4C7A6B14-7360-4136-BF10-ACC249F07F30@pch.net> Message-ID: Hi Bill, On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, 03:34 Bill Woodcock, wrote: > > > > On Jul 29, 2021, at 6:18 PM, Noah wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 12:19 AM Paul Wollner < > paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net> wrote: > > The concerns expressed by TISPA, > > > > TISPA's support of solidarity is with AFRINIC. AFRINIC is our concern. > We shall stand with her. > > > > I call upon all ISP Associations across AFRICA to stand with AFRINIC. > > I am no longer on ARIN?s board, so can?t speak for ARIN, but I?m > reasonably confident that ARIN would look at that as an absolutely last > resort, and would hope to find any better way of supporting AfriNIC in situ. > Ack > For instance, other RIRs could provide bridge funding via direct payment > of AfriNIC staff payroll, to enable them to continue doing their jobs, and > that would be much, much simpler, and much, much less disruptive. > Yes indeed. I am certain that the leadership at AFRINIC have touched based with counterpart RIR systems as per CEO message. > Again, I don?t speak for ARIN, I?m merely suggesting what would have > likely been offered if this had happened while I was on the board. > We know where your heart is Bill. Rest assured you would, no doubt and as you are a real true friend of Africa and your work is visible all over the continent. Cheers, Noah > > -Bill > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From abscoco at gmail.com Fri Jul 30 22:14:50 2021 From: abscoco at gmail.com (Sylvain Baya) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:14:50 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <31299.1627244609@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <745F630B-A186-481C-9704-BCA2A0869089@delong.com> <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: Dear AfriNIC's Community, Le mercredi 28 juillet 2021, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> a ?crit : > > >> >>> [...] >> >> >> > You?re not answering the question I asked? > > Hi Owen, Thanks for your email, brother! > What is your basis in policy for claiming that a VM is OK, but leasing > addresses without providing connectivity > services is not? > > ...you might have forgotten about a simple notion, called: conservation. You shall recognize it as it has been refered out there as *Reservations*. Please read again the CPM at section 5: ~?~ [...] ? 5.5.1.4.1 An LIR may receive an additional allocation when about 80% of all the address space currently allocated to it has been used in valid assignments and/or sub-allocations. ? 5.5.1.4.2 *Reservations* are not considered as valid assignments or sub-allocations. [...] ~?~ > It?s simply not prohibited anywhere in policy. > > Are you serious? ...going further, along with what i wrote above, note that *conservation* is not valid, that appears to be the best description of leasing...of INRs. Those who are charged to implement the CPM have indicated the same. Could you, please, show us where the CPM allows it? Shalom, --sb. > > Or wait... I can not find this so-called LIR *Cloud Innovation Limited* with >> offices in Seychelles using this BGP tool. >> >> >> *https://bgp.he.net/country/SC * >> > > And? > [...] > > Owen > > -- -- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]| Subscribe to Mailing List: __ #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yamadu at ug.edu.gh Fri Jul 30 22:26:07 2021 From: yamadu at ug.edu.gh (AMADU YUSIF) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 22:26:07 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?windows-1252?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=92s_registr?= =?windows-1252?q?y_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net>, Message-ID: I really agree with you. Let us not forget that the only RIR we have in our region is AFRINIC. Let us try to protect it no matter how. I think nobody owns AFRINIC, but the way we are fighting looks like AFRINIC is person who has faulted and want to push it. Let is not forget that when you cut off one of your hands and you roasted it and eat it, you will suffer. Yusif Amadu eLearning Unit University of Ghana Computing Systems University of Ghana Cell: +233244659245 Skype: kooissi ________________________________ From: ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 8:44 AM To: Paul Wollner Cc: arin-discuss ; secretariat ; Community Discuss ; apnic-talk ; ripe-list ; Members Discuss Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC?s registry service migration to other RIRs Dear Paul, I am surprised by this. Why would you think it is in anyone's interest for AFRINIC to close shop. I can't imagine that. AFRINIC has come to stay like any of the other RIRs. Mistakes might have been made who knows ? but am sure it's not the end of the world. Things can still be corrected and we end up with a win-win. AK On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 10:16 PM Paul Wollner > wrote: The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and especially by AFRINIC's own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC?s inability to keep providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its financial requirements. I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC?s core registry service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC?s registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some time later. (https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/) That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come out of litigation. Regards Paul Wollner _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss Website, Weekly Bulletin UGPortal PGPortal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From abscoco at gmail.com Fri Jul 30 22:36:08 2021 From: abscoco at gmail.com (Sylvain Baya) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:36:08 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: <6D448310-8E28-4411-AAF7-51CEB17931A7@delong.com> References: <6D448310-8E28-4411-AAF7-51CEB17931A7@delong.com> Message-ID: Dear AfriNIC's Community, Le mercredi 28 juillet 2021, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> a ?crit : > > > > On Jul 27, 2021, at 13:27 , Barry Macharia > wrote: > > > > [...] > > Otherwise, I will presume that your statement applies to the general > requirement in the bylaws that the member > must provide services within the region. > > ...it appears that, it is not sufficient for you! That's not the case for *someothers* including the implementers of the CPM, who care to both the CPM, the Bylaws and the RSA combined and consolidated, not the CPM alone... ...i was thinking that it is a trivial common think :'-( Isn't it? > > [...] > > > Trying to bottleneck the organisation will not happen under this > communities and majority of resource members watch. > > Bottleneck? Not sure of your meaning here. We are merely seeking to hold > AFRINIC to its own rules as written and > to continue our operations within those rules as they have been for > several years. > > ...even *good* stories, like this one, end, brother! Shalom, --sb. Owen > [...] -- -- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]| Subscribe to Mailing List: __ #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From abscoco at gmail.com Fri Jul 30 23:42:23 2021 From: abscoco at gmail.com (Sylvain Baya) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 00:42:23 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <4ad88a26-f9d2-7ec6-b5f7-1ef518092fa6@geier.ne.tz> <21421F9F-001E-43D3-A3EA-37184F4CE7F8@delong.com> <8430721b-7fcd-e6ec-8b20-b0af673ae9eb@geier.ne.tz> <82C1F7EE-9A34-4630-9C9C-B8AF73B6E147@consulintel.es> Message-ID: Dear AfriNIC's Community, Please see my comments below, inline... Le mercredi 28 juillet 2021, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> a ?crit : > > > > On Jul 27, 2021, at 12:30 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: > > > > This will be very simple to resolve (not taking a position in one side > or the other because I don't have all the real facts and documents). > > > > The original justificacion of the request of the resources I don't think > it had so many "secret" and "confidential" details. After several years if > any "secrets" were there, probably aren't longer something that can't > published now. > > How come that INRs management becomes a matter of such secrets? Please Jordi or any other volunteer, let me know if you are willing to contribute to draft a DPP to remove the possibility of keeping such, apparently, unjustified secrets. > We have already agreed that the original justification is no longer > relevant and that, like any ISP in business for more than 8 years, things > have changed and we have adapted. > > Dear Owen, ...strange! is/was it an adaptation for the good of the AfriNIC's service region? Please, could you enlightenned us on those interesting details? ...moving 90% of INRs out of the AfriNIC's service region, without any Inter RIR transfer policy, seems to be your best way to support the grow of this RIR region. > > So why not CI, voluntarely publish that information? I don't have any > stance on this game, but if I was CI, this will be the best way to probe my > points. > > Because it is no longer relevant. > > > Otherwise, I will suggest that AFRINIC asks the court to incorporate > that in the proceedings if is not there already, this way, whatever is the > result of the case, everybody will know it. At least in the countries I > know, the results of the cases are public, as well as the documents that > were incorporated during all the process: transparency. > > Jordi, maybe it's simply time to stop allowing such secrets. In reality, even if a curative submission is required (if the last filed > justification to which I do not have access, TBH), I would suggest they > simply modify their justification to the following: > > We will use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own > infrastructure and on our customers? networks. > > This is a justification which meets the letter of the law of the policy > and which does not preclude leasing. Owen, ...are you considering the notions of *conservation* and *reservations*? Knowing the understanding of the current implementers of the CPM, it's clear that one shall need to submit a convincing addressing plan before receiving any INR allocation. Shalom, --sb. > > Owen > [...] -- -- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]| Subscribe to Mailing List: __ #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From madomey at hotmail.com Sat Jul 31 06:00:27 2021 From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 06:00:27 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?windows-1252?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=92s_registr?= =?windows-1252?q?y_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: <17af4346477.12b89fc82346837.8550228416205902171@africaoncloud.net> References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net>, <17af4346477.12b89fc82346837.8550228416205902171@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Hi Paul, Your suggestion of AFRINIC to relinquish its core services to NRO in this situation is giving the impression that you have entered the panic mode for what TISPA and lexpress.mu did not say, that is, ?The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and especially by AFRINIC's own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC?s inability to keep providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its financial requirements.? This is wrong, misleading and uncalled for, especially, from someone who was candidate in last Board elections and ambitioned to represent the southern region on the board of Directors. Let us assume that the above publications are wrong, didn?t you view the explanatory video made by the CEO [1] ([1:18 - 1:30]) to guide you in your submission? Are you a prophet of doom? Please, let us be serious and honest in our submission. The RIRs take their responsibility of protecting the community's number resources and upholding community-developed rules very seriously and know the price to it. It is not the first time and might not be the last that one of them has to go through such situation. The normal solidarity and support mechanisms must be activated instead. The world now knows which side you stand in the ongoing dispute that it won't give credit to your claims and suggestions. Cheers Marcus [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmJNnVS-lo4 ________________________________ From: Paul Wollner Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 9:38:32 PM To: Members Discuss ; Community Discuss ; ripe-list ; arin-discuss ; apnic-talk Cc: secretariat Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC?s registry service migration to other RIRs Apologies for the duplicate post, but the initial posting was too large. The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and especially by AFRINIC's own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, which is available at https://ibb.co/tmWCk0k, regarding the AFRINIC?s inability to keep providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its financial requirements. I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC?s core registry service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC?s registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some time later. (https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/) That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come out of litigation. Regards Paul Wollner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu Sat Jul 31 06:25:10 2021 From: ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu (Ish Sookun) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 10:25:10 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: <1696125.lxfF90V9Tq@coffee-bar> The bigger surprise is the that this statement is from someone who ran for the AFRINIC Board Director seat. Regards, -- Ish Sookun On Friday, 30 July 2021 21:44:09 +04 ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE wrote: > Dear Paul, > I am surprised by this. Why would you think it is in anyone's interest for > AFRINIC to close shop. I can't imagine that. AFRINIC has come to stay like > any of the other RIRs. Mistakes might have been made who knows ? but am > sure it's not the end of the world. Things can still be corrected and we > end up with a win-win. > > > AK > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 10:16 PM Paul Wollner < > > paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net> wrote: > > The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and > > especially by AFRINIC's own admission in the news outlet > > http://lexpress.mu, which is > > attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC?s inability to keep > > providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its > > financial requirements. > > > > I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's > > hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC?s core registry > > service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as > > well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC?s > > registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some > > time later. ( > > https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund > > ) > > > > That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come > > out of litigation. > > > > Regards > > Paul Wollner > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Community-Discuss mailing list > > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > -- > Website , Weekly > Bulletin UGPortal > PGPortal > From ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu Sat Jul 31 06:27:16 2021 From: ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu (Ish Sookun) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 10:27:16 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] South Africa ISPA Statement on Recent AFRINIC developments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5836452.zqfpRbV99g@coffee-bar> Not only this situation allowed to us to know who is supporting AFRINIC but also bring forward those who would not hesitate to destroy the organization for commercial end. Regards, -- Ish Sookun On Friday, 30 July 2021 22:49:36 +04 Sami Salih wrote: > Thanks Noah this is really important, we need to know who is supporting our > organization in this hard time. > > Get Outlook for > Android > > ________________________________ > From: Noah > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 2:35:38 PM > To: AfriNIC Discuss ; General Discussions of > AFRINIC Subject: [Community-Discuss] South > Africa ISPA Statement on Recent AFRINIC developments > > Dear Members and the wider AFRICAN Community. > > I note that the ISP Association of South Africa has made a public statement > as well following TISPA'S public statement on recent AFRINIC developments. > > I thought it was important to share the same with the rest of you in case > you missed this important message since ISPA South Africa represents the > large voice of AFRINIC members in South Africa. > > So for those who are trying to show doubt that there is a loss of confidence > in AFRINIC, the statement from ISPA-ZA should show you all that the > industry representative body for ISPs in South Africa does not suffer from > a loss of faith in AFRINIC. > > You can read the important statement via the link below. > > https://ispa.org.za/press_releases/ispa-statement-on-recent-afrinic-developments > > Cheers, > Noah From ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu Sat Jul 31 06:31:22 2021 From: ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu (Ish Sookun) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 10:31:22 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?=5Bmembers-discuss=5D__Call_for_AFR?= =?utf-8?q?INIC=E2=80=99s_registry_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: <3126565.bseIjUHubg@coffee-bar> Shouldn't these be evidence for AFRINIC's legal team to show how the destruction of the organisation is being orchestrated? Regards, -- Ish Sookun On Saturday, 31 July 2021 02:02:49 +04 Bill Woodcock wrote: > Worthy of note, this morning someone with the email address ???? <68688988 at qq.com> posted the following unsigned missive to the APNIC discussion mailing list: > > From: "????" <68688988 at qq.com> > > Subject: [apnic-talk] apnic-talk at lists.apnic.net > > Date: July 30, 2021 at 12:18:06 AM EDT > > To: "apnic-talk" > > > > Dear community, > > > > AFRINIC is facing a crisis that would also swallow the other RIRs without > > proper action on our behalf. The legal action of multiple parties against > > AFRINIC has frozen their bank account, cutting off their financial > > support and impairing AFRINIC?s ability to perform as a fully functioning > > RIR. > > > > The other RIRs will also suffer especially with the Joint RIR Stability > > Fund of the NRO. With this, it might be that APNIC, ARIN, LACNIC, and > > RIPE-NCC and other non-members to be on top of the news and unite against > > NRO?s solidarity pact to avoid sharing AFRINIC?s possible future of > > liquidation and insolvency. It can?t be stressed enough that AFRINIC?s > > problems can easily become the problem of other RIRs without proper > > safeguards. > > > > There are other issues and questions that would be raised aside from the > > very real possibility that AFRINIC may incur a 50 million USD debt with > > the current legal proceedings. Would APNIC?s liability be limited to the > > current funds and will the APNIC members have to pay for AFRINIC's debt? > > Will they be assured that the RIR?s joint fund will stay the same and not > > increase when there is a need? Or is there any confirmation that > > membership fees stay the same, vis a vis the issue with AFRINIC?s > > financial status? > > > > These questions demand that we think about it carefully and ensure that we > > do not follow down AFRINIC?s path. Regardless of how we do it, it is > > encouraging that justice is served, and hopefully AFRINIC will open their > > eyes and resolve their legal issues with the parties involved. > > > > And more to it, we have just learned AFRINIC themselves have admitted in > > the press their inability to continue operation will impact end users > > worldwide(https://www.lexpress.mu/article/397324/grands-titres-lexpress-c > > e-jeudi-29-juillet-2021), so it is extremely important for the continuity > > of the service, NRO taking over AFRINIC's registry function to avoid any > > potential disruptions to the globe internet. litigation came with huge > > risk, not to mention multiple litigation AFRINIC is currently facing, and > > since AFRINIC have provide their own admission of their inability to > > continue to operate, it is critical to have other RIR taking over their > > core function of registry service to ensure continue service of the > > internet > So, in short, this is an attempt to sway APNIC members toward withdrawing > support for AfriNIC. Since the threat to AfriNIC originates from the APNIC > region, I feel that this would be irresponsible, and I pointed this out in > my reply on the APNIC list. > > Google translates ???? as ?Dragon Network? rather than ?Sock Puppet? but, > you know, sometimes they get something wrong. > > -Bill From info at ispa-drc.cd Sat Jul 31 06:22:07 2021 From: info at ispa-drc.cd (info at ispa-drc.cd) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 06:22:07 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] South Africa ISPA Statement on Recent AFRINIC developments In-Reply-To: <5836452.zqfpRbV99g@coffee-bar> References: <5836452.zqfpRbV99g@coffee-bar> Message-ID: <5877da4e91cfe8f1a35d6f77b1a816fd@ispa-drc.cd> Dear All, The current situation of Afrinic has not left indifferent ISPA-DRC which in turn proposes a solution contributing to allow Afrinic to continue working for the development of the Internet industry through this declaration: http://www.ispa-drc.cd/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=31&Itemid=30 Nico TSHINTU 31 juillet 2021 07:27 "Ish Sookun" a ?crit: > Not only this situation allowed to us to know who is supporting AFRINIC but > also bring forward those who would not hesitate to destroy the organization > for commercial end. > > Regards, > > -- > Ish Sookun > > On Friday, 30 July 2021 22:49:36 +04 Sami Salih wrote: > >> Thanks Noah this is really important, we need to know who is supporting our >> organization in this hard time. >> >> Get Outlook for >> Android >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Noah >> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 2:35:38 PM >> To: AfriNIC Discuss ; General Discussions of >> AFRINIC Subject: [Community-Discuss] South >> Africa ISPA Statement on Recent AFRINIC developments >> >> Dear Members and the wider AFRICAN Community. >> >> I note that the ISP Association of South Africa has made a public statement >> as well following TISPA'S public statement on recent AFRINIC developments. >> >> I thought it was important to share the same with the rest of you in case >> you missed this important message since ISPA South Africa represents the >> large voice of AFRINIC members in South Africa. >> >> So for those who are trying to show doubt that there is a loss of confidence >> in AFRINIC, the statement from ISPA-ZA should show you all that the >> industry representative body for ISPs in South Africa does not suffer from >> a loss of faith in AFRINIC. >> >> You can read the important statement via the link below. >> >> https://ispa.org.za/press_releases/ispa-statement-on-recent-afrinic-developments >> >> Cheers, >> Noah > > _______________________________________________ > Members-Discuss mailing list > Members-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss From akin.akinfenwa at uniosun.edu.ng Sat Jul 31 07:06:56 2021 From: akin.akinfenwa at uniosun.edu.ng (Timothy Ola Akinfenwa) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 08:06:56 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: <1696125.lxfF90V9Tq@coffee-bar> References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> <1696125.lxfF90V9Tq@coffee-bar> Message-ID: My sentiments exactly *Ish*. I mean I had to go back and check the mailing list archives to be sure it is the same Mr. Paul Wollner. Conspiracy or Coincidence Theory? Only time will tell and history will surely remember us all! Best! <.ta/> On Sat, Jul 31, 2021 at 7:28 AM Ish Sookun wrote: > The bigger surprise is the that this statement is from someone who ran for > the > AFRINIC Board Director seat. > > Regards, > > -- > Ish Sookun > > On Friday, 30 July 2021 21:44:09 +04 ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE wrote: > > Dear Paul, > > I am surprised by this. Why would you think it is in anyone's interest > for > > AFRINIC to close shop. I can't imagine that. AFRINIC has come to stay > like > > any of the other RIRs. Mistakes might have been made who knows ? but am > > sure it's not the end of the world. Things can still be corrected and we > > end up with a win-win. > > > > > > AK > > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 10:16 PM Paul Wollner < > > > > paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net> wrote: > > > The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and > > > especially by AFRINIC's own admission in the news outlet > > > http://lexpress.mu, which is > > > attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC?s inability to keep > > > providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its > > > financial requirements. > > > > > > I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other > business's > > > hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC?s core > registry > > > service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as > > > well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC?s > > > registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled > some > > > time later. ( > > > > https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund > > > ) > > > > > > That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results > come > > > out of litigation. > > > > > > Regards > > > Paul Wollner > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Community-Discuss mailing list > > > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > -- > > Website , Weekly > > Bulletin UGPortal > > PGPortal > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akin.akinfenwa at uniosun.edu.ng Sat Jul 31 07:13:48 2021 From: akin.akinfenwa at uniosun.edu.ng (Timothy Ola Akinfenwa) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 08:13:48 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <4ad88a26-f9d2-7ec6-b5f7-1ef518092fa6@geier.ne.tz> <21421F9F-001E-43D3-A3EA-37184F4CE7F8@delong.com> <8430721b-7fcd-e6ec-8b20-b0af673ae9eb@geier.ne.tz> <82C1F7EE-9A34-4630-9C9C-B8AF73B6E147@consulintel.es> Message-ID: +1 Sylvain! On Sat, Jul 31, 2021 at 12:48 AM Sylvain Baya wrote: > Dear AfriNIC's Community, > > Please see my comments below, inline... > > Le mercredi 28 juillet 2021, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < > community-discuss at afrinic.net> a ?crit : > >> >> >> > On Jul 27, 2021, at 12:30 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss < >> community-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote: >> > >> > This will be very simple to resolve (not taking a position in one side >> or the other because I don't have all the real facts and documents). >> > >> > The original justificacion of the request of the resources I don't >> think it had so many "secret" and "confidential" details. After several >> years if any "secrets" were there, probably aren't longer something that >> can't published now. >> >> > How come that INRs management becomes a > matter of such secrets? > > Please Jordi or any other volunteer, let me know if > you are willing to contribute to draft a DPP to > remove the possibility of keeping such, apparently, > unjustified secrets. > I'm willing to contribute! > > > >> We have already agreed that the original justification is no longer >> relevant and that, like any ISP in business for more than 8 years, things >> have changed and we have adapted. >> >> > Dear Owen, > > ...strange! is/was it an adaptation for the good of > the AfriNIC's service region? > > Please, could you enlightenned us on those > interesting details? > > ...moving 90% of INRs out of the AfriNIC's service > region, without any Inter RIR transfer policy, seems > to be your best way to support the grow of this RIR > region. > > > >> > So why not CI, voluntarely publish that information? I don't have any >> stance on this game, but if I was CI, this will be the best way to probe my >> points. >> >> Because it is no longer relevant. >> >> > Otherwise, I will suggest that AFRINIC asks the court to incorporate >> that in the proceedings if is not there already, this way, whatever is the >> result of the case, everybody will know it. At least in the countries I >> know, the results of the cases are public, as well as the documents that >> were incorporated during all the process: transparency. >> >> > Jordi, maybe it's simply time to stop allowing such > secrets. > > > In reality, even if a curative submission is required (if the last filed >> justification to which I do not have access, TBH), I would suggest they >> simply modify their justification to the following: >> >> We will use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own >> infrastructure and on our customers? networks. >> >> This is a justification which meets the letter of the law of the policy >> and which does not preclude leasing. > > > > Owen, > ...are you considering the notions of *conservation* > and *reservations*? > > Knowing the understanding of the current > implementers of the CPM, it's clear that one shall > need to submit a convincing addressing plan > before receiving any INR allocation. > > Shalom, > --sb. > > >> >> Owen >> [...] > > > > -- > -- > > Best Regards ! > __ > baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]| > Subscribe to Mailing List: > > __ > #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec > vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? > ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? > ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire > apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss Best regards, <.ta/> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From info at ispa-drc.cd Sat Jul 31 06:54:37 2021 From: info at ispa-drc.cd (info at ispa-drc.cd) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 06:54:37 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] South Africa ISPA Statement on Recent AFRINIC developments In-Reply-To: <5877da4e91cfe8f1a35d6f77b1a816fd@ispa-drc.cd> References: <5877da4e91cfe8f1a35d6f77b1a816fd@ispa-drc.cd> <5836452.zqfpRbV99g@coffee-bar> Message-ID: <0a282310a0f20d20a2f33491d4d75342@ispa-drc.cd> Dear all, I would like to share with you all a wisdom at this time when Afrinic is deprived of its means to function. "If we are all on our tree and each expressed ambitions to assoire on a branch or another,it's part of the house atmosphere. But once erosion threatens the tree,each will forget his ambitions and we will all descend from the tree to protect him, because he is ours." Regards Nico TSHINTU 31 juillet 2021 07:22 info at ispa-drc.cd a ?crit: > Dear All, > > The current situation of Afrinic has not left indifferent ISPA-DRC which in turn proposes a > solution contributing to allow Afrinic to continue working for the development of the Internet > industry through this declaration: > http://www.ispa-drc.cd/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=31&Itemid=30 > > Nico TSHINTU > > 31 juillet 2021 07:27 "Ish Sookun" a ?crit: > >> Not only this situation allowed to us to know who is supporting AFRINIC but >> also bring forward those who would not hesitate to destroy the organization >> for commercial end. >> >> Regards, >> >> -- >> Ish Sookun >> >> On Friday, 30 July 2021 22:49:36 +04 Sami Salih wrote: >> >>> Thanks Noah this is really important, we need to know who is supporting our >>> organization in this hard time. >>> >>> Get Outlook for >>> Android >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Noah >>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 2:35:38 PM >>> To: AfriNIC Discuss ; General Discussions of >>> AFRINIC Subject: [Community-Discuss] South >>> Africa ISPA Statement on Recent AFRINIC developments >>> >>> Dear Members and the wider AFRICAN Community. >>> >>> I note that the ISP Association of South Africa has made a public statement >>> as well following TISPA'S public statement on recent AFRINIC developments. >>> >>> I thought it was important to share the same with the rest of you in case >>> you missed this important message since ISPA South Africa represents the >>> large voice of AFRINIC members in South Africa. >>> >>> So for those who are trying to show doubt that there is a loss of confidence >>> in AFRINIC, the statement from ISPA-ZA should show you all that the >>> industry representative body for ISPs in South Africa does not suffer from >>> a loss of faith in AFRINIC. >>> >>> You can read the important statement via the link below. >>> >>> https://ispa.org.za/press_releases/ispa-statement-on-recent-afrinic-developments >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Noah >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Members-Discuss mailing list >> Members-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss From noah at neo.co.tz Sat Jul 31 07:49:10 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 10:49:10 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] DRC - ISP Association Statement on Recent AFRINIC developments In-Reply-To: <5877da4e91cfe8f1a35d6f77b1a816fd@ispa-drc.cd> References: <5836452.zqfpRbV99g@coffee-bar> <5877da4e91cfe8f1a35d6f77b1a816fd@ispa-drc.cd> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Jul 2021, 10:08 , wrote: > Dear All, > > The current situation of Afrinic has not left indifferent ISPA-DRC which > in turn proposes a solution contributing to allow Afrinic to continue > working for the development of the Internet industry through this > declaration: > http://www.ispa-drc.cd/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=31&Itemid=30 > > Nico TSHINTU Dear Nico Thank you so much for sharing the public statement from the ISP Association of the Democratic Republic of Congo. Indeed when a Tree is threatened with erosion, we who enjoy seating under its shades and leaves must ensure that the Tree remains standing to provide us all with a necessary shade. Cheers Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu Sat Jul 31 08:00:22 2021 From: ish.sookun at lasentinelle.mu (Ish Sookun) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 12:00:22 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> <17af4346477.12b89fc82346837.8550228416205902171@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: <3414763.dA8A41K1yz@coffee-bar> Hi Paul, On Saturday, 31 July 2021 10:00:27 +04 Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote: > ?The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and > especially by AFRINIC's own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, which > is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC?s inability to keep > providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its > financial requirements.? That's your interpretation of the l'express [1] article? It could also be read as CI's actions have put the regional connectivity and the global Internet at risk. The article does not mention CI and its co- founder for nothing. I quote for reference: ? Toutefois, la compagnie ne s?en est pas content?e. Elle a d?pos? une r?clamation en dommages-int?r?ts contre Afrinic le 23 juillet pour ?r?siliation ill?gale? et ?actes ill?gaux?. La Cour supr?me a acc?d? ? la requ?te en se basant sur les informations fournies par CI. Elle pr?vient toutefois qu?une contre-attaque d?Afrinic est possible ?aux risques et p?rils? de CI. L?affaire sera de nouveau appel?e en cour le 4 ao?t. ? Regards, -- Ish Sookun [1] https://www.lexpress.mu/article/397372/litige-entre-afrinic-et-cloud-innovation-reseau-internet-risque-detre-compromis From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Sat Jul 31 10:13:03 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 12:13:03 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: <54238.1627635074@segfault.tristatelogic.com> References: <54238.1627635074@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: Legal battles and police investigations take time. You need to be patient. I've battled several times against different parties, including Spanish Government, Spanish DPA, etc., and even lost some of the cases in the 1st level courts, but having appealed up to the Constitutional Court, even if taking up to 5-6 years, it has been resolved (in my favor). In life, there are no unimportant things, it all depends on the perspective, the environment, and what relation "those less important things" have with more important ones. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet ?El 30/7/21 10:55, "Ronald F. Guilmette" escribi?: In message , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >I understand what you mean, but is not so simple ... I don't know >Mauritius, but if the justice system works there ... Who claimed that the justice system works there? A police report was filed more than a year and a half ago about Ernest's huge and fully proven embezzlement scheme, which amounted to tens of millions of dollars worth of stuff. Has he been arested? Has he even been charged with a single crime in Mauritius? And yet you think that the Mauritian police and courts have nothing better to do than to enforce the Mauritian version of GDPR against people who -allegedly- "mis-used" a handful of phone numbers obtained from the *public* WHOIS?!?! Jordi, you're a nice guy, and I like you, but you could benefit from a bit more perspective about what's important and what isn't. Nobody give a bleep about the possible mis-use of a handful of phone numbers... nobnody in Mauritius and nobody anyplace else. In the grand scheme of things it's like worrying about a hangnail as you are bleeding to death. Regards, rfg _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From noah at neo.co.tz Sat Jul 31 10:14:02 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 13:14:02 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: <1696125.lxfF90V9Tq@coffee-bar> References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> <1696125.lxfF90V9Tq@coffee-bar> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Jul 2021, 09:31 Ish Sookun, wrote: > The bigger surprise is the that this statement is from someone who ran for > the > AFRINIC Board Director seat. > Hi Ish This is not a surprise to be honest. Paul Wolner is a business associate of Lu Heng and they wanted a seat on the highest level of Afrinic governance the same Afrinic Lu Heng has launched multiple suits against and the same Paul Wolner is calling for NRO to take over Afrinic. Thank goodness Wolner lost the elections as resource members saw Paul Wolner for who he was and I remember members stating that the last election would have an impact on Afrinic existence and now we see what members meant and why they had to stop Paul. Just imagine a conflicted and biased Paul Wolner as a director of the Afrinic board in this times. Its important to all a spade a spade. Cheers Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Sat Jul 31 10:14:31 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 12:14:31 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case In-Reply-To: References: <63009ED1-95AB-4863-8DD8-213BFFEAD9D2@consulintel.es> <52264.1627602471@segfault.tristatelogic.com> Message-ID: That's why I said "I don't know Mauritius ...". I'm sure that many countries in the world don't have so good coverage of that "reciprocity", but it is a matter of time, because that's important for every country in the world. Saludos, Jordi @jordipalet ?El 30/7/21 22:05, "Owen DeLong" escribi?: > On Jul 29, 2021, at 23:53 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote: > > I understand what you mean, but is not so simple ... I don't know Mauritius, but if the justice system works there and you fail to pay to a DPA fine, and there is not a reciprocal specific with US, do you believe you will be able to come to Mauritius without risking detention or do business with local entities? > > May be Mauritius is too small and you don't care, but what about the EU? > > Do you know that many fines imposed, for example fines about traffic, have reciprocity agreements among many countries so they can be sized from your accounts or even prosecuted via freezing of your properties? As I understand it, this is relatively uncommon in Africa. Food for thought. Owen ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From jordi.palet at consulintel.es Sat Jul 31 10:47:19 2021 From: jordi.palet at consulintel.es (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 12:47:19 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] should the allocation/assigment of resources be made public? Message-ID: <1DC032E4-DD08-47ED-B32C-9C98EAF0929A@consulintel.es> Hi Sylvain, (subject changed and moved to RPD and we should follow the discussion there and not copy community, as it belongs to there) I don?t think is so easy. It is very normal, even in open organizations, to keep confidentiality in many documents. It could be even ruled as illegal if you don?t accept that in the CPM, if we ground the CPM under Mauritius law, which is an open question. However, the CPM implementation is done by the AFRINIC as a Mauritius legally constituted organization ? Remember that a justification for a resource request, can provide insights of a business plan and then you?re opening your business to your competitors. So the point is if we can draft something in the line of: *** (new section 3.3.4 ?Publication of Information?) IPv4 resources are scarce and close to exhaustion. So, following the principles of openness, transparency and fairness as set above, after ?n? years of every allocation/assignment of IPv4 resources, the justification of the request must be published. Towards that, the resource member will be warned 3 months before the publication with a draft of the summary to be published,. It will have up to 1 month, to provide a demonstration of reasons why some of the details can?t be made public (such as patents or similar), that show the uniqueness nature of the services offered which, if disclosed, could damage the resource member business. The staff will have 1 month to decide if that?s the case, and in doubt, they will escalate to the Board that must resolve in a maximum of 1 month. This policy shall be implemented in such way that all the resources allocated/assigned for over ?n? years, will be chronologically warned in such way that allows the staff to process the possible responses of ?non-disclosure? without requiring extra human resources. *** Now, we need to decide if this is good enough, and how many years for the ?n?. 2 years maybe? I will love also to hear from legal counsel/Board and lawyers participating in the community, how they see it ? I?m not even sure myself, this could work, but we could try. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet Dear AfriNIC's Community, Please see my comments below, inline... Le mercredi 28 juillet 2021, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss a ?crit : > On Jul 27, 2021, at 12:30 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote: > > This will be very simple to resolve (not taking a position in one side or the other because I don't have all the real facts and documents). > > The original justificacion of the request of the resources I don't think it had so many "secret" and "confidential" details. After several years if any "secrets" were there, probably aren't longer something that can't published now. How come that INRs management becomes a matter of such secrets? Please Jordi or any other volunteer, let me know if you are willing to contribute to draft a DPP to remove the possibility of keeping such, apparently, unjustified secrets. We have already agreed that the original justification is no longer relevant and that, like any ISP in business for more than 8 years, things have changed and we have adapted. Dear Owen, ...strange! is/was it an adaptation for the good of the AfriNIC's service region? Please, could you enlightenned us on those interesting details? ...moving 90% of INRs out of the AfriNIC's service region, without any Inter RIR transfer policy, seems to be your best way to support the grow of this RIR region. > So why not CI, voluntarely publish that information? I don't have any stance on this game, but if I was CI, this will be the best way to probe my points. Because it is no longer relevant. > Otherwise, I will suggest that AFRINIC asks the court to incorporate that in the proceedings if is not there already, this way, whatever is the result of the case, everybody will know it. At least in the countries I know, the results of the cases are public, as well as the documents that were incorporated during all the process: transparency. Jordi, maybe it's simply time to stop allowing such secrets. In reality, even if a curative submission is required (if the last filed justification to which I do not have access, TBH), I would suggest they simply modify their justification to the following: We will use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own infrastructure and on our customers? networks. This is a justification which meets the letter of the law of the policy and which does not preclude leasing. Owen, ...are you considering the notions of *conservation* and *reservations*? Knowing the understanding of the current implementers of the CPM, it's clear that one shall need to submit a convincing addressing plan before receiving any INR allocation. Shalom, --sb. Owen [...] -- -- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]| Subscribe to Mailing List: __ #?LASAINTEBIBLE|#?Romains15:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU de ?#?Paix soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen!? ?#?MaPri?re est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Sat Jul 31 11:18:18 2021 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 14:18:18 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Oga AK, On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, 20:52 ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE, wrote: > Dear Paul, > I am surprised by this. Why would you think it is in anyone's interest for > AFRINIC to close shop. > FYI, a small group of dishonest individuals, actually believe Afrinic should not exist. But if one carefully analyse these people, you will realise that even though they purport to have the best interest of Afrinic service region, their own actions and historically archived submissions show otherwise. I can't imagine that. > Best believe that people like Wolner and their cohorts are damn serious and could careless. AFRINIC has come to stay like any of the other RIRs. > For 99% of the wider membership and the African internet community yes. Mistakes might have been made who knows > Seeking accountability is not a mistake. Its a path to progress. Accountability is very significant and we should not confuse it for a mistake. The Afrinic Resources Services Agreement ensures that accountability reigns. ? but am sure it's not the end of the world. Things can still be corrected > and we end up with a win-win. > The community, the members, Afrinic and the courts will ensure that. Cheers, Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rachadsanoussi at gmail.com Sat Jul 31 12:43:33 2021 From: rachadsanoussi at gmail.com (Ben Rachad Sanoussi) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 12:43:33 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Dear all, Let us support AFRINIC and prevent the destruction of our Regional Internet Registry. Thank you On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 9:13 PM Paul Wollner wrote: > The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and > especially by AFRINIC's own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, > which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC?s inability to keep > providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its > financial requirements. > > I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's > hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC?s core registry > service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as > well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC?s > registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some > time later. ( > https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/ > ) > > That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come > out of litigation. > > Regards > Paul Wollner > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lamiaachnayti at gmail.com Sat Jul 31 13:18:43 2021 From: lamiaachnayti at gmail.com (Lamiaa Chnayti) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 14:18:43 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: +1 "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". The NRO's Joint Stability Fund was literally set up to guarantee the continued operation of an RIR in case of an emergency, and for an RIR to no longer have access to its bank accounts is obviously one. Otherwise how will AFRINIC maintain its payroll and maintain its services to serve the African Internet stability? It really baffles me how some people are so convinced that anything that differs from their usual opinion means that it's wrongful. There is no shame in asking for help. What is shameful is to know that help is needed and pretend that it's not in order to save one's pride. There's a system in place, so why not use it until AFRINIC gets back on its feet? I don't want to see our Internet registry get destroyed and I don't want to suffer from the consequences, and I doubt anyone in this community does. Best regards, Lamiaa On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 at 22:13, Paul Wollner wrote: > The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and > especially by AFRINIC's own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, > which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC?s inability to keep > providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its > financial requirements. > > I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's > hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC?s core registry > service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as > well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC?s > registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some > time later. ( > https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/ > ) > > That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come > out of litigation. > > Regards > Paul Wollner > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sienqle at gmail.com Sat Jul 31 13:52:32 2021 From: sienqle at gmail.com (Thizwilondi Malupa) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 15:52:32 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: I can confidently say that , in this community we all want the best for AFRINIC , at the current moment they are in a financial distress , which I believe , also stated by Paul , AFRINIC is already struggling with the registry functionality. Right now , the solution that can bring up stability and ensure AFRINIC operations are not entirely affected is to look at the NRO RIR Stability Fund. It was established for situations like this , so it would be best for NRO to take over for the moment , until AFRINIC can sort out their financial crisis . If AFRINIC becomes completely disrupted of their functionality , the community will be also affected that much. Regards, Ishmael On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 11:16 PM Paul Wollner < paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net> wrote: > The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and > especially by AFRINIC's own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, > which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC?s inability to keep > providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its > financial requirements. > > I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's > hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC?s core registry > service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as > well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC?s > registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some > time later. ( > https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/ > ) > > That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come > out of litigation. > > Regards > Paul Wollner > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ibeanusielvis at gmail.com Sat Jul 31 14:22:41 2021 From: ibeanusielvis at gmail.com (Ibeanusi Elvis) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 23:22:41 +0900 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Like everyone here, I believe that we share a common denominator and idea, which is centered on the success, longevity and the continued functionality of the AFRINIC. Hence, with the present condition and situation that the RIR being AFRINIC is in financially, an assistance through the NRO RIR Stability Fund would be an option to utilize until our internet registry the AFRINIC RIR is stable and functional to the fullest. Thus, this concept of ?destruction? as regards to the AFRINIC should not be something we should be thinking of and inferring at this point. Elvis. On Sat, Jul 31, 2021 at 22:55 Thizwilondi Malupa wrote: > I can confidently say that , in this community we all want the best for > AFRINIC , at the current moment they are in a financial distress , which I > believe , also stated by Paul , AFRINIC is already struggling with the > registry functionality. Right now , the solution that can bring up > stability and ensure AFRINIC operations are not entirely affected is to > look at the NRO RIR Stability Fund. It was established for situations like > this , so it would be best for NRO to take over for the moment , until > AFRINIC can sort out their financial crisis . If AFRINIC becomes > completely disrupted of their functionality , the community will be also > affected that much. > > Regards, > Ishmael > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 11:16 PM Paul Wollner < > paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net> wrote: > >> The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and >> especially by AFRINIC's own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, >> which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC?s inability to keep >> providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its >> financial requirements. >> >> I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's >> hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC?s core registry >> service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as >> well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC?s >> registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some >> time later. ( >> https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/ >> ) >> >> That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come >> out of litigation. >> >> Regards >> Paul Wollner >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amelnaud at gmail.com Sat Jul 31 14:59:50 2021 From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 14:59:50 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: References: <17af41cb044.e637eb65343733.3107949989203015779@africaoncloud.net> Message-ID: Lol, Oooh that's sad when people don't absolutely understand nothing. People have shot an arrow, they don't even know if their opponent is hit, they start digging his grave. Without knowing if the latter does not have a shield that would return their own projectile to their face. They want to bury Afrinic without even making sure their complaints hit their target. Just manage your boss's current problems and let Afrinic handle the constraints you create. Be reassured your Boss needs your advice more than Afrinic. AFRINIC EN AVANT !!! French : Ahahaha ah ! Oooh que s'est triste, quand les gens ne comprennent absolument rien. Les gens ont tir? une fl?che, ils ne savent m?me pas si leur adversaire est touch?, ils commencent ? creuser sa tombe. Sans savoir si ce dernier n'a pas un bouclier qui leur renverrait leur propre projectile ? la figure. Ils veulent enterrer Afrinic sans m?me s'assurer que leurs plaintes ont atteint leur cible. Contentez-vous de g?rer les probl?mes actuels de votre patron et laissez Afrinic g?rer les contraintes que vous avez cr?er. Soyez rassurer votre Patron ? plus besoin de vos conseils qu' Afrinic. AFRINIC EN AVANT !!! Bon courage. -- Arnaud Le sam. 31 juil. 2021 ? 14:25, Ibeanusi Elvis a ?crit : > Like everyone here, I believe that we share a common denominator and idea, > which is centered on the success, longevity and the continued functionality > of the AFRINIC. Hence, with the present condition and situation that the > RIR being AFRINIC is in financially, an assistance through the NRO RIR > Stability Fund would be an option to utilize until our internet registry > the AFRINIC RIR is stable and functional to the fullest. Thus, this concept > of ?destruction? as regards to the AFRINIC should not be something we > should be thinking of and inferring at this point. > > Elvis. > > On Sat, Jul 31, 2021 at 22:55 Thizwilondi Malupa > wrote: > >> I can confidently say that , in this community we all want the best for >> AFRINIC , at the current moment they are in a financial distress , which I >> believe , also stated by Paul , AFRINIC is already struggling with the >> registry functionality. Right now , the solution that can bring up >> stability and ensure AFRINIC operations are not entirely affected is to >> look at the NRO RIR Stability Fund. It was established for situations like >> this , so it would be best for NRO to take over for the moment , until >> AFRINIC can sort out their financial crisis . If AFRINIC becomes >> completely disrupted of their functionality , the community will be also >> affected that much. >> >> Regards, >> Ishmael >> >> On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 11:16 PM Paul Wollner < >> paul.wollner at africaoncloud.net> wrote: >> >>> The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and >>> especially by AFRINIC's own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, >>> which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC?s inability to keep >>> providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its >>> financial requirements. >>> >>> I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other >>> business's hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC?s core >>> registry service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their >>> responsibility as well as commitment to the global internet to take over >>> AFRINIC?s registration service for the time being, until litigation is >>> settled some time later. ( >>> https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/ >>> ) >>> >>> That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results >>> come out of litigation. >>> >>> Regards >>> Paul Wollner >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From b.sowers154 at gmail.com Sat Jul 31 16:11:08 2021 From: b.sowers154 at gmail.com (Brian Sowers) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 12:11:08 -0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Correction to my previous email Message-ID: Ronald F. Guilmette, I?ll admit I had difficulty reading your response because it consisted of so many logical fallacies. The community discussion board is only as useful as it?s discussions, obviously, and the composition of your response fails to meet that end. 1: You straw man Paul?s argument by taking up a cause no one was discussing. Global capitalism? Paul is raising the issue of a global internet for all so please spare us your 2: disastrous appeal to emotion by introducing a theoretical Kenyan sharecropper?s hardships. If anything, Paul?s proposal carries the implication that the internet is the very tool to relieve the economic toil you brought up. 3: Once again, you skew Paul?s argument to fit your own. From Paul- ?The membership simply do not know how many litigants there are knocking at Afrinic? but it is quite clear that there are several cases that need to be handled appropriately and to date the organization has crafted an environment favouring a litigious approach.? It would be helpful if you included the full quote. In essence, you?ve validated his argument. Litigants are approaching because of the opportunity the environment that which AFRINIC has facilitated-through its own action-for litigious action from organizations. I have seen your prior posts and it is clear you are at the end of your patience. Your sarcasm/trolling is prevalent and can be easily reported in violation of the CoC. For the sake of us all the community, please offer valid counter arguments. -Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Sat Jul 31 18:42:15 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 11:42:15 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business In-Reply-To: References: <31299.1627244609@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <745F630B-A186-481C-9704-BCA2A0869089@delong.com> <418e1240-bbaa-b658-43aa-dfd75fc769db@geier.ne.tz> Message-ID: > On Jul 30, 2021, at 15:14 , Sylvain Baya wrote: > > Dear AfriNIC's Community, > > Le mercredi 28 juillet 2021, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss > a ?crit : > >> >> >> [...] >> > > You?re not answering the question I asked? > > > Hi Owen, > Thanks for your email, brother! > > > What is your basis in policy for claiming that a VM is OK, but leasing addresses without providing connectivity > services is not? > > > ...you might have forgotten about a simple notion, > called: conservation. You shall recognize it as it has > been refered out there as *Reservations*. I have not forgotten, but we are not talking about reservation. We are talking about deployment on an actual host connected to the internet for legitimate use. The difference? The only difference? Is that the connectivity service does not come from the same provider as the addresses. > > Please read again the CPM at section 5: > > ~?~ > [...] > ? 5.5.1.4.1 An LIR may receive an additional allocation when about 80% of > all the address space currently allocated to it has been used in valid > assignments and/or sub-allocations. > ? 5.5.1.4.2 *Reservations* are not considered as valid assignments or > sub-allocations. > [...] > ~?~ > Yep? that?s not a prohibition on valid assignment and/or sub allocation independent of connectivity services, that?s a prohibition of addresses not being attached to hosts. > > It?s simply not prohibited anywhere in policy. > > > Are you serious? > > ...going further, along with what i wrote above, note > that *conservation* is not valid, that appears to be > the best description of leasing...of INRs. Nope? It?s not a good description at all. Reservations (as prohibited in 5.5.1.4.2) refers to addresses set aside for later use?Addresses not currently assigned to active hosts. Such is not the case with leasing. With leasing, the addresses are assigned to hosts active on the internet, but the hosts may be getting their connectivity from a different provider than they are getting the addresses from. > Those who are charged to implement the CPM have > indicated the same. Could you, please, show us > where the CPM allows it? If they have indicated this, then they are simply in error as that is not what it actually says. I have not noticed AFRINIC staff referring to this section as prohibiting leasing, but perhaps their reference escaped me at some point. It does not need to be specifically permitted. That which is not prohibited is permitted implicitly. Unless there is an explicit requirement in the CPM that hosts receive connectivity services from the same provider which provides their addresses, then independent assignment is inherently permitted and this is the current state. I hope you now understand the difference between a reservation (holding unused addresses, such as what Seacom and many others are doing) vs. providing addresses that are actually in use, but not simultaneously providing transit or transport services. Owen > > Shalom, > --sb. > > >> Or wait... I can not find this so-called LIR Cloud Innovation Limited with offices in Seychelles using this BGP tool. >> >> https://bgp.he.net/country/SC > > And? > [...] > > Owen > > > > -- > -- > Best Regards ! > __ > baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]|> > Subscribe to Mailing List: > > __ > #?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33?Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous tous! ?#?Amen?!? > ?#?MaPri?re? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chr?tiennement? > ?Comme une biche soupire apr?s des courants d?eau, ainsi mon ?me soupire apr?s TOI, ? DIEU!?(#Psaumes42:2) > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Sat Jul 31 18:51:56 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 11:51:56 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] South Africa ISPA Statement on Recent AFRINIC developments In-Reply-To: <5836452.zqfpRbV99g@coffee-bar> References: <5836452.zqfpRbV99g@coffee-bar> Message-ID: <2BCE246D-270A-4C5A-BB1E-40441776EE69@delong.com> > On Jul 30, 2021, at 23:27 , Ish Sookun wrote: > > Not only this situation allowed to us to know who is supporting AFRINIC but > also bring forward those who would not hesitate to destroy the organization > for commercial end. > I think you are confused. Certainly, at no point have I sought the destruction of AFRINIC. Indeed, any potential destruction of AFRINIC is the direct result of the inevitable reaction when AFRINIC sought to destroy another company and that company availed itself of the legal system in defense of its contractual rights. Had AFRINIC stuck to its governing documents as written, rather than choosing to invent restrictions which are not codified therein and use those as an artifice to take adverse action against a resource member, there would be no basis for any of the current legal claims by Cloud Innovation. I still do not seek the destruction of AFRINIC, but rather the correction of its behaviors. While I am not a fan of some of the things Cloud Innovation has done, I see an RIR that does not operate according to its governing documents as a much greater threat to the community than anything any resource member has or could do. Owen > Regards, > > -- > Ish Sookun > > On Friday, 30 July 2021 22:49:36 +04 Sami Salih wrote: >> Thanks Noah this is really important, we need to know who is supporting our >> organization in this hard time. >> >> Get Outlook for >> Android >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Noah >> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 2:35:38 PM >> To: AfriNIC Discuss ; General Discussions of >> AFRINIC Subject: [Community-Discuss] South >> Africa ISPA Statement on Recent AFRINIC developments >> >> Dear Members and the wider AFRICAN Community. >> >> I note that the ISP Association of South Africa has made a public statement >> as well following TISPA'S public statement on recent AFRINIC developments. >> >> I thought it was important to share the same with the rest of you in case >> you missed this important message since ISPA South Africa represents the >> large voice of AFRINIC members in South Africa. >> >> So for those who are trying to show doubt that there is a loss of confidence >> in AFRINIC, the statement from ISPA-ZA should show you all that the >> industry representative body for ISPs in South Africa does not suffer from >> a loss of faith in AFRINIC. >> >> You can read the important statement via the link below. >> >> https://ispa.org.za/press_releases/ispa-statement-on-recent-afrinic-developments >> >> Cheers, >> Noah > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss From owen at delong.com Sat Jul 31 20:02:08 2021 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 13:02:08 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd->community-dsicuss] Last Call - RPKI ROAs for Unallocated and Unassigned AFRINIC Address Space AFPUB-2019-GEN-006-DRAFT03. In-Reply-To: <47A0F003-0FD1-4CAF-8523-90AAA5CF6AEF@controlfreak.co.za> References: <1C12AC05-E9CD-4FA9-8B67-039201F609DE@consulintel.es> <36CC4A1B-D2A1-4213-AEE6-7B874AD38D5C@delong.com> <0D6A136C-562C-4A27-AD3B-3B842FA1B8EF@controlfreak.co.za> <1084A39B-EA01-4ACD-83B1-56A122B74C89@delong.com> <47A0F003-0FD1-4CAF-8523-90AAA5CF6AEF@controlfreak.co.za> Message-ID: > On Jul 31, 2021, at 03:58 , Nishal Goburdhan wrote: > > On 27 Jul 2021, at 6:30, Owen DeLong wrote: >> >> I am neither an arm chair juror nor judge. I will state that an actual judge (in fact, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Mauritius) issued an order asking AFRINIC to immediately correct the WHOIS entries and restore Cloud Innovation?s membership on July 13th. Clearly he felt that CI?s claims of harm and the merits of the case were sufficient to grant such relief. > > oh dear. i?ve asked many times to stop referring to non-RPD related issues. what you might think that the court did ask is simply a matter of your interpretation bounded by your education and interpretation of the text. *my* education and interpretation says otherwise; if i wanted to argue semantics with you (and this part is not relevant to RPD so i apologise in advance: > Fair enough ? Migrating to community discuss? For the sake of completeness, here is the actual order: > > .. i would say that the order that i read here [1] says: ?do not act on the board?s resolution until you appear in court on $date?. what i also see is that (as the transcript shows) this order-to-not-act arrived on july13, when action was made on july8. specifically, i don?t see the the words (quoting you) ?immediate? nor do i see ?correct? nor do i see ?restore? in the text of the order. just a ?cease and desist?; which, i believe is what afrinic did do (ie. stopped changing WHOIS entries at that point) until such time as a court appearance was made. So your claim is that since the actions were taken prior to the injunction, the injunction did not create an obligation to reverse those actions? Your claim is that the following text: ?restraining and prohibiting You, the above named, Respondent acting through tis Board and/or its representatives and/or prepose in whatever capacity, from ? (ii) freezing in any manner whatsoever, any or all of the resources allocated to the Applicant; (iii) denying the Applicant access in any manner whatsoever to the AFRINIC WHOIS database; (iv) reclaiming, in any manner whatsoever, or any or all of the resources allocated to the Applicant by virtue of its membership as a Resource Member of the Respondent ? Does not create an obligation to reverse the actions previously taken based on the board resolution, simply because said order was issued after the actions were taken. An interesting interpretation, indeed. > i am guessing that during the ?exchange of views? these words were possibly mentioned; likely others too, like ?reinstate?, which would have been another important word, imho, that should have been in the original order. what?s clear to me, reading the transcript of court on page 4, are the words : ?will fully comply with the Order?, and as we know the WHOIS entries were corrected, so can we *please* stop this bleating about how afrinic didn?t listen to the court order. because, that?s not how we all view this, and, it?s clear (at least to me) that the court saw reasonable doubt in their original order as well, else they would/should have immediately held afrinic in contempt of court for not listening to the july13 order. they did not. > The transcript you refer to is from the hearing on the 15th. The message you are quoting referred to AFRINIC?s failure (and refusal) to comply between the issuance of the interim order issued on July 13th until forced to do so at the hearing on July 15th. During that time, AFRINIC did refuse to make updates to WHOIS (thus violating (ii) and (iii) from the order. During that time, AFRINIC did refuse to issue new ROAs that had been requested prior to the board resolution, thus violating (i) of the order. By keeping the notice on WHOIS during that time, I would argue that AFRINIC also violated (iv) of the order in that a notice that the resources have been reclaimed is, in fact, a form of reclamation and refusing to remove such notice of reclamation constitutes a continuing act of reclamation in at least some manner. Sure, there?s probably room for clever attorneys to engage in some level of sophistry around this, but I think that the outcome of the January 15th hearing made it pretty clear that the judges intent was for AFRINIC to do on the 13th what it finally did on the 15th. Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Cloud Notice , Rule and Appeal.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 491204 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amelnaud at gmail.com Sat Jul 31 21:56:57 2021 From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 21:56:57 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] South Africa ISPA Statement on Recent AFRINIC developments In-Reply-To: <2BCE246D-270A-4C5A-BB1E-40441776EE69@delong.com> References: <5836452.zqfpRbV99g@coffee-bar> <2BCE246D-270A-4C5A-BB1E-40441776EE69@delong.com> Message-ID: I would like to invite the community to stop responding to the CI Staff on this matter. I have the impression that they are using us to find fallacious arguments to use against Afrinic while seeking to stuff our heads with their mistaken and incongruous understanding of Afrinic's texts. The case is before justice, we just have to support Afrinic and ignore the henchmen of CI in their games of destruction and lies. French : Je voudrais inviter la communaut? ? ne plus r?pondre au Staff de CI sur cette affaire. J'ai l'impression qu'il nous utilise pour trouver des arguments fallacieux ? utiliser contre Afrinic tout en cherchant ? nous bourrer le cr?ne deleur compr?hension erron?e et incongrue des textes d'Afrinic. L'affaire est devant la justice, soutenons Afrinic et ignorons les sbires de CI ? leur jeux de destruction et de mensonge. Regards -- Arnaud Le sam. 31 juil. 2021 ? 18:54, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss < community-discuss at afrinic.net> a ?crit : > > > > On Jul 30, 2021, at 23:27 , Ish Sookun > wrote: > > > > Not only this situation allowed to us to know who is supporting AFRINIC > but > > also bring forward those who would not hesitate to destroy the > organization > > for commercial end. > > > > I think you are confused. Certainly, at no point have I sought the > destruction of > AFRINIC. Indeed, any potential destruction of AFRINIC is the direct result > of the > inevitable reaction when AFRINIC sought to destroy another company and that > company availed itself of the legal system in defense of its contractual > rights. > > Had AFRINIC stuck to its governing documents as written, rather than > choosing > to invent restrictions which are not codified therein and use those as an > artifice > to take adverse action against a resource member, there would be no basis > for any of the current legal claims by Cloud Innovation. > > I still do not seek the destruction of AFRINIC, but rather the correction > of its > behaviors. While I am not a fan of some of the things Cloud Innovation has > done, I see an RIR that does not operate according to its governing > documents > as a much greater threat to the community than anything any resource member > has or could do. > > Owen > > > Regards, > > > > -- > > Ish Sookun > > > > On Friday, 30 July 2021 22:49:36 +04 Sami Salih wrote: > >> Thanks Noah this is really important, we need to know who is supporting > our > >> organization in this hard time. > >> > >> Get Outlook for > >> Android > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Noah > >> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 2:35:38 PM > >> To: AfriNIC Discuss ; General Discussions > of > >> AFRINIC Subject: [Community-Discuss] > South > >> Africa ISPA Statement on Recent AFRINIC developments > >> > >> Dear Members and the wider AFRICAN Community. > >> > >> I note that the ISP Association of South Africa has made a public > statement > >> as well following TISPA'S public statement on recent AFRINIC > developments. > >> > >> I thought it was important to share the same with the rest of you in > case > >> you missed this important message since ISPA South Africa represents the > >> large voice of AFRINIC members in South Africa. > >> > >> So for those who are trying to show doubt that there is a loss of > confidence > >> in AFRINIC, the statement from ISPA-ZA should show you all that the > >> industry representative body for ISPs in South Africa does not suffer > from > >> a loss of faith in AFRINIC. > >> > >> You can read the important statement via the link below. > >> > >> > https://ispa.org.za/press_releases/ispa-statement-on-recent-afrinic-developments > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Noah > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Community-Discuss mailing list > > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfg at tristatelogic.com Sat Jul 31 23:35:27 2021 From: rfg at tristatelogic.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 16:35:27 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] =?utf-8?q?Call_for_AFRINIC=E2=80=99s_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_service_migration_to_other_RIRs?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <61802.1627774527@segfault.tristatelogic.com> In message Thizwilondi Malupa wrote: >... so it would be best for NRO to take over for the moment , until >AFRINIC can sort out their financial crisis... As I understand it, there is going to be another court hearing on Wednesday, August 4th, which is just a few days from now, and that hearing will specifically be on the topic of the asset freeze. It is possible that on Tuesday the asset freeze may be lifted. I disagree, violently, with Eddy and the Board on a whole huge range of issues. In fact I am mad as hell at all of them about a number of things. But I do trust Eddy enough to believe that if he believed that he could not keep the lights on and the systems running until at least Wednesday, then he would tell us all that. After Wednesday, if the asset freeze is not lifted, then it might be appropriate to start to panic and/or to call for some extraordinary measures. Today however, it isn't. (Does the term "Chicken Little" have any meaning on the African continent, or is that just an American thing? I honestly don't know.) Regards, rfg