From honest1989 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 17:34:13 2018
From: honest1989 at gmail.com (Ornella GANKPA)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 18:34:13 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
Message-ID: <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>

Hi Mark

My comments inline


Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit?:
>
>
>
> On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>> Owen,
>>
>> 2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com 
>> <mailto:owen at delong.com>>:
>>
>>     Arnaud,
>>
>>     While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that
>>     there is some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY
>>     not have been a legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think
>>     we cannot go changing the rules of the election and violating the
>>     expectations of the voters, membership, and community after the
>>     election has run.
>>
>>
>> Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been 
>> made; let's fix it!>>
>
> And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). 
> The only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the 
scope of this discussion?? This is a matter of concern for the community 
at large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,? it is time 
to listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?

>
>>
>>     Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above
>>     on the ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.
>>
>>
>> No one is raising objection even now on ?this option being on the 
>> ballot as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the 
>> correct implementation ?of the guidelines as written.
>>
>>
>>     Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the
>>     above to change the result among the remaining two candidates, it
>>     is not legitimate to simply discard the none of the above votes
>>     and declare one of those candidates a winner. Indeed, I would
>>     argue that is the worst possible choice among all other options.
>>
>>     The other options as I see it are:
>>
>>     1.Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board
>>     member until the
>>     next AGMM.
>>
>>     2.Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which
>>     case it should be
>>     considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from
>>     appointing
>>     anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.
>>
>>
>>     3.Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for
>>     seat 2 and preclude
>>     the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to
>>     appoint seats 5
>>     and 6.
>>
>>     As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the
>>     organization to proceed with a full board until the next AGMM
>>     where a hopefully more effective election can be accomplished.
>>
>>     I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously
>>     short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the
>>     CEO. (The 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to
>>     fill Haitham?s vacancy, and the CEO).
>>
>>     The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying
>>     treating the election of ?none of the above? differently in this
>>     circumstance than in the case of a single unopposed candidate. In
>>     both cases, more voters felt that they didn?t want any of the
>>     options on the ballot and voted not to elect any fo the
>>     candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless of the
>>     number of candidates and should be handled identically.
>>
>>
>> Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on 
>> ballot and has not effect on the results
>
> What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None 
> of the above" with "Abstain" ?
The guidelines? say:
"The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for 
any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
It does not say to "reject all? the proposed candidate".
It says to not vote? for any candidate and the guidelines states that , 
the candidate with the highest votes wins.
Let us stop? this harmful interpretation.

>
>> and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the 
>> elections rules. In the current ?situation, ?the guidelines are clear 
>> ?and explicit ?on how we should ?handle the results. So let follow it 
>> and engage on discussions ?for amending the rules ?if we see need to 
>> do so.
>
> I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its 
> doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like 
> *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none 
> of the above". Why does this seem so hard to grasp? 
Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other 
document?? which support your statement? Some seems to refuse to read 
the guidelines? and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your 
statement.

> I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one 
> natural person on the list but not fine when there is more than one 
> natural person on the list.
One explanation:
When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . 
I need a way to count the "no" vote.
a- change the ballot to? "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
b- use? natural candidate and " none of the above"
We were? using b)

>
>
>>
>>     Hopefully additional clarity can be achieved prior to the next
>>     election and we won?t have to face this issue again. Personally,
>>     I like the idea of having ?none of the above? as an option in all
>>     cases.
>>
>>
>> Clarity and fairness is the outcome of the complaint regarding seat 2 
>> here imho; for the rest we can agree to disagree.
>
> I agree to agree with Owen.
>
>>
>>     Owen
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>>     On May 29, 2018, at 14:56 , Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com
>>>     <mailto:amelnaud at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Dear Ashok as a lawyer you know that there is the law and spirit
>>>     of the law, please read bellow
>>>
>>>     2018-05-25 11:18 GMT+00:00 Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net
>>>     <mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>>:
>>>
>>>         Dear All,
>>>         I apologize for having? missed your rejoinder to my mail.
>>>
>>>     Despite the delays, we appreciate your response as the matter is
>>>     of great concern.
>>>
>>>         Your first question regards the reason as to why the same
>>>         principle has been applied to the election for Seat 2
>>>         notwithstanding the fact that there were two candidates.
>>>         My response is that an election cannot be run on different
>>>         principles. In this particular election the option "none of
>>>         the above " was
>>>         introduced for the first time and everyone was aware of this
>>>         and it applied to all the elections held on that day. The
>>>         Election guidelines were amended to acomodate this option.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Yes indeed and the elections guidelines explicitely addressed
>>>     the case of only a single candidate running for election and the
>>>     option " none of the above" in this case got more votes than the
>>>     sole candidate but is very silent in the case of multiple
>>>     candidates running for elections with the option "none of the
>>>     above" getting more votes.
>>>
>>>     Anytime elections involve the option "none of the above", there
>>>     are always clear rules on how the results are interpreted and
>>>     the actions that must be taken when the option "none of the
>>>     above" get more votes than the multiple candidates.
>>>
>>>     It's not my intention to teach you something here, but it does
>>>     look very bizarre that the legal counsel never bothered to help
>>>     the board to make ?the guidelines unambiguous ?and conform to
>>>     members expectations.
>>>
>>>         Consequently this option has to be taken in consideration
>>>         when finalising the results.
>>>         Where there were two candidates. The options for voters were
>>>         (1) yes for candidate (1)-((2) yes for candidate 2-(3) yes
>>>         for non of the above.Each one is mutually exclusive.
>>>         Each score to be counted separately. The majority for either
>>>         option wins the day.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Following ?your reasoning above and the guidelines which say the
>>>     candidate with the highest votes win, the members and community
>>>     should then accept "none of the above" as the elected candidate
>>>     and seated although "none of the above " did not go through
>>>     Nomcom and was not listed on the candidates slates ?published by
>>>     Nomcom.
>>>
>>>     Which means seat 2 should not be declared vacant to be filled by
>>>     board.
>>>
>>>     Filling ?seat 2 by board would constitute the violation of "none
>>>     ?of the above" rights and of our rules and thus expose us to
>>>     legal litigation.
>>>
>>>         One should not create a fictitious majority by adding votes
>>>         polled by (1) & (2) together. The real majority was to all
>>>         intents and purposes the option which polled the most votes.
>>>         There is no need to extrapolate or interpret.
>>>
>>>
>>>     There is No fictitious majority being created. It was just an
>>>     example of how this case could have been interpreted just like
>>>     you do have your own interpretation.
>>>
>>>     In many cases, ?abstention is compared to voters in order to
>>>     decide how to proceed with ?validating an election and counting
>>>     results..
>>>
>>>         Where there was one candidate there were two options- Yes
>>>         for the single candidate or yes for "non of the above"
>>>
>>>
>>>     The case of a sole candidate is clear as per the guidelines and
>>>     there are no objections on seat 5 and 6 results.
>>>
>>>         My reference to Art 10.2 was based on the decision of the
>>>         members present at? past AGMMs to have the option of
>>>         rejecting a single candidate or to give their approval to
>>>         the single candidate, This has occurred more than once.
>>>
>>>
>>>     And once again, ?the case of a single candidate is handled as
>>>     members agreed to and not debated
>>>
>>>     Thank you
>>>
>>>         Legal Counsel AFRINIC.
>>>
>>>
>>>         On 24/05/2018 21:11, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>>>>         Dear CEO and Chairman
>>>>
>>>>         It looks like the Legal counsel has not ?responded to this
>>>>         query bellow regarding this very important issue about the
>>>>         recently concluded elections.
>>>>
>>>>         Could you kindly remind him?
>>>>
>>>>         Let us address this to a good conclusion in order to
>>>>         enforce the respect of our rules and processes.
>>>>
>>>>         Regards
>>>>
>>>>         Arnaud
>>>>
>>>>         Le sam. 19 mai 2018 11:40, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net
>>>>         <mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> a ?crit?:
>>>>
>>>>             Dear Legal Counsel,
>>>>
>>>>             Thanks for your input.? Much appreciated.
>>>>
>>>>             Your statements reinforce the interpretation of section
>>>>             9.2 of the guidelines with the origin of the "none of
>>>>             the above" option in the election process and how votes
>>>>             for this option are considered in the case of one
>>>>             candidate running for election for a seat. [Last bullet
>>>>             point]
>>>>
>>>>             Case in which the election becomes a "yes" or "no" vote
>>>>             for the only candidate. ?This point?is clear and
>>>>             accepted and the objection is not for the results for
>>>>             seat 5 and 6.
>>>>
>>>>             What has not been clarified is how the same principle
>>>>             came to be applied for the elections for seat 2 which
>>>>             had two candidates running for the seat, one of whom
>>>>             got higher votes than the other, with the total number
>>>>             of members casting votes in excess of those opting out.
>>>>
>>>>             You also?referred to art 10.2 of the constitution?but
>>>>             did not elaborate on the precedence that occurred that
>>>>             has become an integral?part of our?guidelines. As
>>>>             precedence automatically becomes part of the election
>>>>             guidelines, it is important that we address issues
>>>>             which come up around the election with care and
>>>>             unambiguously.
>>>>
>>>>             Can you be so kind to clarify?
>>>>
>>>>             Best wishes
>>>>             Omo
>>>>
>>>>             PS: Grateful to listers to please keep?this thread
>>>>             confined to the subject.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             On 17 May 2018 at 17:17, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net
>>>>             <mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>                 Dear Members and Community,
>>>>                 Mt views have been sought on the matter under
>>>>                 reference.
>>>>                 Please find same hereunder.
>>>>
>>>>                 On 17/05/2018 14:04, B
>>>>
>>>>                 *_The Election Process and last AGMM._*
>>>>
>>>>                 The appointment of Directors is carried out during
>>>>                 an AGMM of the Company ?Art 13.1 of the constitution.
>>>>
>>>>                 The election of the Directors is carried out in
>>>>                 terms of Art 13.2 of the constitution which refers
>>>>                 expressly to the election process approved by the
>>>>                 Board.
>>>>
>>>>                 MoreoverArt 10.2 of the Constitution refers to
>>>>                 precedent applied during an AFRINIC election and
>>>>                 which de facto become part of the election guidelines.
>>>>
>>>>                 The election processas it stands today is the one
>>>>                 which was applied duringthe elections held during
>>>>                 the last AGMM without any opposition.
>>>>
>>>>                 This is what it provides:
>>>>
>>>>                 *9.2 Paper Ballot on Election Day*
>>>>
>>>>                 The voting conducted during the Annual General
>>>>                 Members' Meeting is carried out via paper ballots
>>>>                 containing a list of candidate names and a ballot
>>>>                 number. Prior to the vote, all members present or
>>>>                 participants holding a proxy will be requested to
>>>>                 register and validate their membership status.
>>>>
>>>>                           + Voters should only vote for one
>>>>                             candidate per category/region. Each
>>>>                             mark on a ballot paper represents one
>>>>                             vote. A ballot with more than one mark
>>>>                             per category/region will be considered
>>>>                             spoilt, and not be counted.
>>>>                           + The ballot paper should provide voters
>>>>                             with the option to not vote for any
>>>>                             candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").
>>>>                           + This will be a secret ballot election.
>>>>                             An inclusion of any personal data on
>>>>                             the ballot paper will invalidate the
>>>>                             vote and will be counted as spoilt.
>>>>                           + Elections will be closed as soon as the
>>>>                             last member or proxy present in the
>>>>                             meeting room casts his/her vote.
>>>>                             Candidates with the highest number of
>>>>                             votes in each category will be declared
>>>>                             winners.
>>>>                           + In the event of a tie for an open
>>>>                             position, voting for that position will
>>>>                             be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the
>>>>                             same day until there is a winner.
>>>>                           + All open positions shall be subject to
>>>>                             an election process even if there is
>>>>                             only one candidate. In that event, if
>>>>                             the option [none of the above] got more
>>>>                             votes than the only candidate, then the
>>>>                             seat shall be considered vacant and the
>>>>                             Board will be requestedto apply
>>>>                             provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily
>>>>                             fill the vacant seat
>>>>
>>>>                 The last amendment of the election guidelines
>>>>                 introduced the voting option ? None of the Above?.
>>>>                 ?(Vide second bullet point above.)Those voters who
>>>>                 have cast their votes for ? None of the Above? have
>>>>                 done so in compliance with the
>>>>                 prevailingconstitution and these are thus valid
>>>>                 votes. Every voter was aware of the new option.
>>>>
>>>>                 The election guidelines are clear as to what
>>>>                 happens when the ? None of the Above? option has a
>>>>                 majority.- (Vide last bullet point above.)
>>>>
>>>>                 The election guidelines must be read as a whole and
>>>>                 all the provisions read together.
>>>>
>>>>                 Legal Counsel ?AFRINIC
>>>>
>>>>                 17.05.2018
>>>>
>>>>                 oubakar Barry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>                 Hello Board and Legal Counsel,
>>>>>
>>>>>                 Good that Omo spotted this.
>>>>>
>>>>>                 It?s a matter of applying the board election
>>>>>                 process adopted by the board according to section
>>>>>                 13.2 of the bylaws.
>>>>>
>>>>>                 https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process
>>>>>                 <https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process>
>>>>>                 describes the process and section 9 spells out how
>>>>>                 to interpret the results in the case there are
>>>>>                 more than one candidate and in the case there is
>>>>>                 only one candidate. These two cases are addressed
>>>>>                 separately and differently.
>>>>>
>>>>>                 It?s important to hear from the Board and the
>>>>>                 Legal Counsel, as the elections can be challenged.
>>>>>
>>>>>                 Please advise.
>>>>>
>>>>>                 Regards.
>>>>>
>>>>>                 Boubakar
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>                 On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Omo Oaiya
>>>>>                 <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net
>>>>>                 <mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>                     Greetings All,
>>>>>
>>>>>                     I am looking at the BoD election process and
>>>>>                     it seems to me that the recent e-mail from the
>>>>>                     Board Chair seeking nominations for vacant
>>>>>                     seats should not be extended to Western Africa.
>>>>>
>>>>>                     The particular clause I am referring to is in
>>>>>                     9.2 -
>>>>>                     https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process
>>>>>                     <https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                      *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                         Elections will be closed as soon as the
>>>>>>                         last member or proxy present in the
>>>>>>                         meeting room casts his/her vote.
>>>>>>                         Candidates with the highest number of
>>>>>>                         votes in each category will be declared
>>>>>>                         winners
>>>>>>
>>>>>                     I see from the list for West Africa that the
>>>>>                     candidate with the highest number of votes
>>>>>                     should have been declared winner and this is
>>>>>                     Dr Ousmane Tessa. ?(btw, Dr Adewale Adedokun
>>>>>                     needs his name spelt correctly)
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                     *Western Africa - Seat 2*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                     Dr Adelawe Abedekon - 43
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                     Dr Ousmane Moussa Tessa - 56
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                     None of the above - 78
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                     /Result: The seat is vacant/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>                     The results from the other regions are valid
>>>>>                     and supported by the following clause as they
>>>>>                     had one candidate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                           o All open positions shall be subject
>>>>>>                             to an election process even if there
>>>>>>                             is only one candidate. In that event,
>>>>>>                             if the option [none of the above] got
>>>>>>                             more votes than the only candidate,
>>>>>>                             then the seat shall be considered
>>>>>>                             vacant and the Board will be
>>>>>>                             requested to apply provisions of the
>>>>>>                             Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant
>>>>>>                             seat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>                     Can AfriNIC and the nomcom please clarify? ?
>>>>>                     We should not deprive Dr Tessa of a rightful
>>>>>                     win ?. especially in the circumstances we find
>>>>>                     ourselves.
>>>>>
>>>>>                     Omo
>>>>>
>>>>>                     _______________________________________________
>>>>>                     Community-Discuss mailing list
>>>>>                     Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>>>>                     <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>>>>>                     https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>>>                     <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>                 _______________________________________________
>>>>>                 Members-Discuss mailing list
>>>>>                 Members-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>>>>                 <mailto:Members-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>>>>>                 https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss
>>>>>                 <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>             Community-Discuss mailing list
>>>>             Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>>>             <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>>>>             https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>>             <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     Community-Discuss mailing list
>>>     Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>>>     https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>     <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
> -- 
> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
> mje at posix.co.za        Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA:https://ftth.posix.co.za
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From owen at delong.com  Sat Jun  2 03:22:36 2018
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 20:22:36 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>



> On Jun 1, 2018, at 10:34 , Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Mark
> 
> My comments inline
> 
> Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit :
>> 
>> 
>> On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>>> Owen, 
>>> 
>>> 2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com <mailto:owen at delong.com>>:
>>> Arnaud,
>>> 
>>> While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that there is some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY not have been a legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go changing the rules of the election and violating the expectations of the voters, membership, and community after the election has run.
>>> 
>>> Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been made; let's fix it!>>
>> 
>> And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
> Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope of this discussion?  This is a matter of concern for the community at large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,  it is time to listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?

If you chose not to vote, then really, you?ve effectively asked us not to listen to you.

Just my $0.02.

> 
>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above on the ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.
>>> 
>>> No one is raising objection even now on  this option being on the ballot as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the correct implementation  of the guidelines as written.
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the above to change the result among the remaining two candidates, it is not legitimate to simply discard the none of the above votes and declare one of those candidates a winner. Indeed, I would argue that is the worst possible choice among all other options.
>>> 
>>> The other options as I see it are:
>>> 
>>> 	1.	Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board member until the
>>> 		next AGMM.
>>> 
>>> 	2.	Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which case it should be
>>> 		considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from appointing
>>> 		anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 	3.	Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for seat 2 and preclude
>>> 		the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to appoint seats 5
>>> 		and 6.
>>> 
>>> As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the organization to proceed with a full board until the next AGMM where a hopefully more effective election can be accomplished.
>>> 
>>> I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the CEO. (The 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s vacancy, and the CEO).
>>> 
>>> The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying treating the election of ?none of the above? differently in this circumstance than in the case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases, more voters felt that they didn?t want any of the options on the ballot and voted not to elect any fo the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless of the number of candidates and should be handled identically.
>>> 
>>> Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on ballot and has not effect on the results 
>> 
>> What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None of the above" with "Abstain" ?
> The guidelines  say:
> "The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
> It does not say to "reject all  the proposed candidate". 
> It says to not vote  for any candidate and the guidelines states that , the candidate with the highest votes wins.
> Let us stop  this harmful interpretation.

Wow? This takes sophistry to a new level. Regardless of the polite language used in the guidelines, it is an obvious implication that the intent is to provide an option to affirmatively vote against all of the candidates on the slate.

Otherwise, abstention (simply leaving all choices for that office blank) would suffice.

The specific affirmative act of selecting ?none of the above? must be interpreted as if ?none of the above? were, in fact, a candidate. In the event where ?none of the above? gains the most votes, it is completely unfair to the plurality of voters which selected that choice to turn around and then seat one of the other candidates in the race.

I agree that we should learn from this event and clarify this in the guidelines, but the fact that there are those who would argue to disenfranchise the plurality of voters in this election by stripping them of their right to block the seating of candidates which were so thoroughly opposed is, IMHO, absurd.

> 
>> 
>>> and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the elections rules. In the current  situation,  the guidelines are clear  and explicit  on how we should  handle the results. So let follow it and engage on discussions  for amending the rules  if we see need to do so.
>> 
>> I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none of the above". Why does this seem so hard to grasp?
> Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other document   which support your statement?  Some seems to refuse to read the guidelines  and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
> The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your statement

A reasonable interpretation of the language as written without extraordinary mental gymnastics supports this statement.

Your interpretation of the guidelines is absurd in the extreme. I don?t know if that?s because you are reading the literal meaning of the words individually and outside of the context or if it is because the logical meaning of the words taken as a whole fails to support your position. Regardless, it is clearly the ?spirit of the law? and the clear intent of the words in the guidelines when taken in context to allow voters to express an affirmative opposition to the entire slate of candidates.

Your interpretation would reduce it to mere abstention, in which case there would be no point of putting ?none of the above? on the ballot because that can be achieved by merely leaving that office blank when filling out the ballot.

> .
> 
>> I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one natural person on the list but not fine when there is more than one natural person on the list.
> One explanation:
> When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . I need a way to count the "no" vote.
> a- change the ballot to  "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
> b- use  natural candidate and " none of the above"
> We were  using b)

Sure, but there?s no reason that can?t work the exact same way in a multiple-candidate race and that was the clear expectation of the voters in this case.

a) Candidate A
b) Candidate B
c) None of the above

If you wanted to abstain, you didn?t choose any of those options and left that part of the ballot blank.
If you wanted to express a desire that neither candidate A nor candidate B be seated, then voting for option c is the correct action.

That?s what happened. In fact, a plurality of voters chose option c. It?s quite clear they did that not with the intent of abstaining, but with the intent that neither candidate A nor candidate B be elected.

Why is it so hard for you to accept this?

Owen


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From walu.john at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 06:14:07 2018
From: walu.john at gmail.com (John Walu)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 09:14:07 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
Message-ID: <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>

Just looking at this discussion thread and thinking:

**Does AfriNIC have an election appeal process?*

IF Yes-that should be invoked by the complainant and should kick in.
IF NOT- then someone should propose one, so that we update our  the
Election Guidelines.

Otherwise nominations were done, the slate published, elections held and
results officially announced (faulty or otherwise) at an AGM.

I believe formal change of an election can only occur through an Appeal
process - I am not sure email discussions are recognised as such.

I am not proposing we kill the discussion, but I am not sure if email
discussions can formally revert an election outcome -  however intense and
valid those discussions maybe.

walu.

On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 6:22 AM, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Jun 1, 2018, at 10:34 , Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Mark
>
> My comments inline
>
> Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit :
>
>
>
> On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>
> Owen,
>
> 2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>:
>
>> Arnaud,
>>
>> While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that there is
>> some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY not have been a
>> legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go changing the
>> rules of the election and violating the expectations of the voters,
>> membership, and community after the election has run.
>>
>
> Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been made;
> let's fix it!>>
>
>
> And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The
> only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
>
> Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope
> of this discussion?  This is a matter of concern for the community at
> large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,  it is time to
> listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?
>
>
> If you chose not to vote, then really, you?ve effectively asked us not to
> listen to you.
>
> Just my $0.02.
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above on the
>> ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.
>>
>
> No one is raising objection even now on  this option being on the ballot
> as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the correct
> implementation  of the guidelines as written.
>
>
>>
>> Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the above
>> to change the result among the remaining two candidates, it is not
>> legitimate to simply discard the none of the above votes and declare one of
>> those candidates a winner. Indeed, I would argue that is the worst possible
>> choice among all other options.
>>
>> The other options as I see it are:
>>
>> 1. Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board
>> member until the
>> next AGMM.
>>
>> 2. Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which case it
>> should be
>> considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from
>> appointing
>> anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.
>>
>>
>> 3. Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for seat 2
>> and preclude
>> the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to appoint
>> seats 5
>> and 6.
>>
>> As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the organization to
>> proceed with a full board until the next AGMM where a hopefully more
>> effective election can be accomplished.
>>
>> I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously
>> short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the CEO. (The
>> 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s
>> vacancy, and the CEO).
>>
>> The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying treating
>> the election of ?none of the above? differently in this circumstance than
>> in the case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases, more voters
>> felt that they didn?t want any of the options on the ballot and voted not
>> to elect any fo the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless
>> of the number of candidates and should be handled identically.
>>
>
> Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on ballot
> and has not effect on the results
>
>
> What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None of
> the above" with "Abstain" ?
>
> The guidelines  say:
> "The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for
> any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
> It does not say to "reject all  the proposed candidate".
> It says to not vote  for any candidate and the guidelines states that ,
> the candidate with the highest votes wins.
> Let us stop  this harmful interpretation.
>
>
> Wow? This takes sophistry to a new level. Regardless of the polite
> language used in the guidelines, it is an obvious implication that the
> intent is to provide an option to affirmatively vote against all of the
> candidates on the slate.
>
> Otherwise, abstention (simply leaving all choices for that office blank)
> would suffice.
>
> The specific affirmative act of selecting ?none of the above? must be
> interpreted as if ?none of the above? were, in fact, a candidate. In the
> event where ?none of the above? gains the most votes, it is completely
> unfair to the plurality of voters which selected that choice to turn around
> and then seat one of the other candidates in the race.
>
> I agree that we should learn from this event and clarify this in the
> guidelines, but the fact that there are those who would argue to
> disenfranchise the plurality of voters in this election by stripping them
> of their right to block the seating of candidates which were so thoroughly
> opposed is, IMHO, absurd.
>
>
>
> and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the elections
> rules. In the current  situation,  the guidelines are clear  and explicit
>  on how we should  handle the results. So let follow it and engage on
> discussions  for amending the rules  if we see need to do so.
>
>
> I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its
> doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like
> *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none of
> the above". Why does this seem so hard to grasp?
>
> Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other
> document   which support your statement?  Some seems to refuse to read the
> guidelines  and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
> The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your
> statement
>
>
> A reasonable interpretation of the language as written without
> extraordinary mental gymnastics supports this statement.
>
> Your interpretation of the guidelines is absurd in the extreme. I don?t
> know if that?s because you are reading the literal meaning of the words
> individually and outside of the context or if it is because the logical
> meaning of the words taken as a whole fails to support your position.
> Regardless, it is clearly the ?spirit of the law? and the clear intent of
> the words in the guidelines when taken in context to allow voters to
> express an affirmative opposition to the entire slate of candidates.
>
> Your interpretation would reduce it to mere abstention, in which case
> there would be no point of putting ?none of the above? on the ballot
> because that can be achieved by merely leaving that office blank when
> filling out the ballot.
>
> .
>
> I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one natural
> person on the list but not fine when there is more than one natural person
> on the list.
>
> One explanation:
> When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . I
> need a way to count the "no" vote.
> a- change the ballot to  "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
> b- use  natural candidate and " none of the above"
> We were  using b)
>
>
> Sure, but there?s no reason that can?t work the exact same way in a
> multiple-candidate race and that was the clear expectation of the voters in
> this case.
>
> a) Candidate A
> b) Candidate B
> c) None of the above
>
> If you wanted to abstain, you didn?t choose any of those options and left
> that part of the ballot blank.
> If you wanted to express a desire that neither candidate A nor candidate B
> be seated, then voting for option c is the correct action.
>
> That?s what happened. In fact, a plurality of voters chose option c. It?s
> quite clear they did that not with the intent of abstaining, but with the
> intent that neither candidate A nor candidate B be elected.
>
> Why is it so hard for you to accept this?
>
> Owen
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From christianbope at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 08:38:11 2018
From: christianbope at gmail.com (Bope Christian)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 10:38:11 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Publication of Strategic Plan 2016-2020
Message-ID: <02FBD84A-1811-4373-9B59-0907E6EEECA9@gmail.com>

[version fran?ais ci-dessous]

Publication of Strategic Plan 2016-2020

Dear AFRINIC members and community,

In September 2016, the Board published a ?Strategy Document? at <https://afrinic.net/images/doc/strategy-document-2016-2020-20160708b.pdf <https://afrinic.net/images/doc/strategy-document-2016-2020-20160708b.pdf>>, which was an extract from a Strategic Plan that the Board at that time considered to be an internal document.

The Board has now decided to publish the full Strategic Plan for 2016 to 2020.  It is available at <https://afrinic.net/images/Strategic-Plan-2016-2020-20180530.pdf <https://afrinic.net/images/Strategic-Plan-2016-2020-20180530.pdf>>.


Best Regards,
Christian D. Bope, Ph.D
Chairman, AFRINIC Board


[fran?ais]

Publication du plan strat?gique 2016-2020

Chers membres et communaut? d'AFRINIC,

En septembre 2016, le Conseil a publi? un ?document de strat?gie? ? l'adresse <https://afrinic.net/images/doc/strategy-document-2016-2020-20160708b.pdf <https://afrinic.net/images/doc/strategy-document-2016-2020-20160708b.pdf>>, qui ?tait un extrait d'un plan strat?gique que le Conseil ? ce moment consid?r? comme un document interne.

Le Conseil a maintenant d?cid? de publier le Plan strat?gique complet pour 2016 ? 2020. Il est disponible ? <https://afrinic.net/images/Strategic-Plan-2016-2020-20180530.pdf <https://afrinic.net/images/Strategic-Plan-2016-2020-20180530.pdf>>.

Cordialement,
Christian D. Bope, Ph.D
Pr?sident du Conseil d?Administration d?AFRINIC









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From madomey at hotmail.com  Sat Jun  2 10:32:18 2018
From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 10:32:18 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>,
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AM0PR0602MB3603D94F2DDB07C581775A2BB9610@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Hello,

Thanks Ornella and others who has been actively participating in this discussion to help clear this issue once for good.

Can someone explains to me why  ?none of the above?  votes were not counted for  2017 elections  as it  was done for election 2018 ?

https<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>://<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>www.afrinic.net<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>  - 2017

https<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections>://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections> - 2018




Marcus



________________________________
From: Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 5:34:13 PM
To: mje at posix.co.za; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections


Hi Mark

My comments inline

Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit :


On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
Owen,

2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com<mailto:owen at delong.com>>:
Arnaud,

While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that there is some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY not have been a legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go changing the rules of the election and violating the expectations of the voters, membership, and community after the election has run.

Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been made; let's fix it!>>

And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope of this discussion?  This is a matter of concern for the community at large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,  it is time to listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?




Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above on the ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.

No one is raising objection even now on  this option being on the ballot as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the correct implementation  of the guidelines as written.


Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the above to change the result among the remaining two candidates, it is not legitimate to simply discard the none of the above votes and declare one of those candidates a winner. Indeed, I would argue that is the worst possible choice among all other options.

The other options as I see it are:

1. Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board member until the
next AGMM.

2. Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which case it should be
considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from appointing
anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.


3. Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for seat 2 and preclude
the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to appoint seats 5
and 6.

As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the organization to proceed with a full board until the next AGMM where a hopefully more effective election can be accomplished.

I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the CEO. (The 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s vacancy, and the CEO).

The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying treating the election of ?none of the above? differently in this circumstance than in the case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases, more voters felt that they didn?t want any of the options on the ballot and voted not to elect any fo the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless of the number of candidates and should be handled identically.

Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on ballot and has not effect on the results

What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None of the above" with "Abstain" ?
The guidelines  say:
"The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
It does not say to "reject all  the proposed candidate".
It says to not vote  for any candidate and the guidelines states that , the candidate with the highest votes wins.
Let us stop  this harmful interpretation.


and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the elections rules. In the current  situation,  the guidelines are clear  and explicit  on how we should  handle the results. So let follow it and engage on discussions  for amending the rules  if we see need to do so.

I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none of the above". Why does this seem so hard to grasp?
Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other document   which support your statement?  Some seems to refuse to read the guidelines  and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your statement.

I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one natural person on the list but not fine when there is more than one natural person on the list.
One explanation:
When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . I need a way to count the "no" vote.
a- change the ballot to  "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
b- use  natural candidate and " none of the above"
We were  using b)





Hopefully additional clarity can be achieved prior to the next election and we won?t have to face this issue again. Personally, I like the idea of having ?none of the above? as an option in all cases.

Clarity and fairness is the outcome of the complaint regarding seat 2 here imho; for the rest we can agree to disagree.

I agree to agree with Owen.



Owen

Thanks


On May 29, 2018, at 14:56 , Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com<mailto:amelnaud at gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Ashok as a lawyer you know that there is the law and spirit of the law, please read bellow

2018-05-25 11:18 GMT+00:00 Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net<mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>>:
Dear All,
I apologize for having  missed your rejoinder to my mail.

Despite the delays, we appreciate your response as the matter is of great concern.

Your first question regards the reason as to why the same principle has been applied to the election for Seat 2
notwithstanding the fact that there were two candidates.
My response is that an election cannot be run on different principles. In this particular election the option "none of the above " was
introduced for the first time and everyone was aware of this and it applied to all the elections held on that day. The Election guidelines were amended to acomodate this option.

Yes indeed and the elections guidelines explicitely addressed the case of only a single candidate running for election and the option " none of the above" in this case got more votes than the sole candidate but is very silent in the case of multiple candidates running for elections with the option "none of the above" getting more votes.

Anytime elections involve the option "none of the above", there are always clear rules on how the results are interpreted and the actions that must be taken when the option "none of the above" get more votes than the multiple candidates.

It's not my intention to teach you something here, but it does look very bizarre that the legal counsel never bothered to help the board to make  the guidelines unambiguous  and conform to members expectations.

Consequently this option has to be taken in consideration when finalising the results.
Where there were two candidates. The options for voters were (1) yes for candidate (1)-((2) yes for candidate 2-(3) yes for non of the above.Each one is mutually exclusive.
Each score to be counted separately. The majority for either option wins the day.

Following  your reasoning above and the guidelines which say the candidate with the highest votes win, the members and community should then accept "none of the above" as the elected candidate and seated although "none of the above " did not go through Nomcom and was not listed on the candidates slates  published by Nomcom.

Which means seat 2 should not be declared vacant to be filled by board.

Filling  seat 2 by board would constitute the violation of "none  of the above" rights and of our rules and thus expose us to legal litigation.


One should not create a fictitious majority by adding votes polled by (1) & (2) together. The real majority was to all intents and purposes the option which polled the most votes. There is no need to extrapolate or interpret.

There is No fictitious majority being created. It was just an example of how this case could have been interpreted just like you do have your own interpretation.

In many cases,  abstention is compared to voters in order to decide how to proceed with  validating an election and counting results..


Where there was one candidate there were two options- Yes for the single candidate or yes for  "non of the above"

The case of a sole candidate is clear as per the guidelines and there are no objections on seat 5 and 6 results.

My reference to Art 10.2 was based on the decision of the members present at  past AGMMs to have the option of rejecting a single candidate or to give their approval to the single candidate, This has occurred more than once.

And once again,  the case of a single candidate is handled as members agreed to and not debated

Thank you


Legal Counsel AFRINIC.


On 24/05/2018 21:11, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
Dear CEO and Chairman

It looks like the Legal counsel has not  responded to this query bellow   regarding this very important issue about the recently concluded elections.

Could you kindly remind him?

Let us address this to a good conclusion in order to enforce the respect of our rules and processes.

Regards

Arnaud

Le sam. 19 mai 2018 11:40, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net<mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> a ?crit :
Dear Legal Counsel,

Thanks for your input.  Much appreciated.

Your statements reinforce the interpretation of section 9.2 of the guidelines with the origin of the "none of the above" option in the election process and how votes for this option are considered in the case of one candidate running for election for a seat. [Last bullet point]

Case in which the election becomes a "yes" or "no"  vote for the only candidate.   This point is clear and accepted and the objection is not for the results for seat 5 and 6.

What has not been clarified is how the same principle came to be applied for the elections for seat 2 which had two candidates running for the seat, one of whom got higher votes than the other, with the total number of members casting votes in excess of those opting out.

You also referred to art 10.2 of the constitution but did not elaborate on the precedence that occurred that has become an integral part of our guidelines.  As precedence automatically becomes part of the election guidelines, it is important that we address issues which come up around the election with care and unambiguously.

Can you be so kind to clarify?

Best wishes
Omo

PS:  Grateful to listers to please keep this thread confined to the subject.



On 17 May 2018 at 17:17, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net<mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>> wrote:
Dear Members and Community,
Mt views have been sought on the matter under reference.
Please find same hereunder.

On 17/05/2018 14:04, B
The Election Process and last AGMM.
The appointment of Directors is carried out during an AGMM of the Company ?Art 13.1 of the constitution.
The election of the Directors is carried out in terms of Art 13.2 of the constitution which refers expressly to the election process approved by the Board.
Moreover  Art 10.2 of the Constitution refers to precedent applied during an AFRINIC election and which de facto become part of the election guidelines.
The election process  as it stands today is the one which was applied during  the elections held during the last AGMM without any opposition.
This is what it provides:
9.2 Paper Ballot on Election Day
The voting conducted during the Annual General Members' Meeting is carried out via paper ballots containing a list of candidate names and a ballot number. Prior to the vote, all members present or participants holding a proxy will be requested to register and validate their membership status.

        *   Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region. Each mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than one mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be counted.
        *   The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").
        *   This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any personal data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be counted as spoilt.
        *   Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners.
        *   In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for that position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until there is a winner.
        *   All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat
The last amendment of the election guidelines introduced the voting option ? None of the Above?. ?(Vide second bullet point above.)Those voters who have cast their votes for ? None of the Above? have done so in compliance with the prevailing  constitution  and these are thus valid votes. Every voter was aware of the new option.
The election guidelines are clear as to what happens when the ? None of the Above? option has a majority.- (Vide last bullet point above.)
The election guidelines must be read as a whole and all the provisions read together.
Legal Counsel ?AFRINIC
17.05.2018
oubakar Barry wrote:

Hello Board and Legal Counsel,

Good that Omo spotted this.

It?s a matter of applying the board election process adopted by the board according to section 13.2 of the bylaws.

https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process describes the process and section 9 spells out how to interpret the results in the case there are more than one candidate and in the case there is only one candidate. These two cases are addressed separately and differently.

It?s important to hear from the Board and the Legal Counsel, as the elections can be challenged.

Please advise.

Regards.

Boubakar

On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net<mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> wrote:
Greetings All,

I am looking at the BoD election process and it seems to me that the recent e-mail from the Board Chair seeking nominations for vacant seats should not be extended to Western Africa.

The particular clause I am referring to is in 9.2 - https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process

  *
Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners

I see from the list for West Africa that the candidate with the highest number of votes should have been declared winner and this is Dr Ousmane Tessa.  (btw, Dr Adewale Adedokun needs his name spelt correctly)


Western Africa - Seat 2

Dr Adelawe Abedekon - 43

Dr Ousmane Moussa Tessa - 56

None of the above - 78

Result: The seat is vacant


The results from the other regions are valid and supported by the following clause as they had one candidate.

     *   All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.

Can AfriNIC and the nomcom please clarify?   We should not deprive Dr Tessa of a rightful win ?. especially in the circumstances we find ourselves.

Omo

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From noah at neo.co.tz  Sat Jun  2 10:58:00 2018
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 13:58:00 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR0602MB3603D94F2DDB07C581775A2BB9610@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
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 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603D94F2DDB07C581775A2BB9610@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqgTWaq6+DTPTYSts0Bk9L=569Far-LJ6W_DuatdJOQPv94Mg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018, 1:40 p.m. Marcus K. G. Adomey, <madomey at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Thanks Ornella and others who has been actively participating in this
> discussion to help clear this issue once for good.
>
> Can someone explains to me why  ?none of the above?  votes were not
> counted for  2017 elections  as it  was done for election 2018 ?
>

+1 and am also curious to know why?


> https
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>://
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>
> www.afrinic.net
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>
> /fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>
> - 2017
>
> https
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections>
> ://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections>
> - 2018
>
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 1, 2018 5:34:13 PM
> *To:* mje at posix.co.za; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for
> Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>
>
> Hi Mark
>
> My comments inline
>
> Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit :
>
>
>
> On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>
> Owen,
>
> 2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>:
>
>> Arnaud,
>>
>> While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that there is
>> some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY not have been a
>> legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go changing the
>> rules of the election and violating the expectations of the voters,
>> membership, and community after the election has run.
>>
>
> Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been made;
> let's fix it!>>
>
>
> And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The
> only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
>
> Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope
> of this discussion?  This is a matter of concern for the community at
> large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,  it is time to
> listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above on the
>> ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.
>>
>
> No one is raising objection even now on  this option being on the ballot
> as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the correct
> implementation  of the guidelines as written.
>
>
>>
>> Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the above
>> to change the result among the remaining two candidates, it is not
>> legitimate to simply discard the none of the above votes and declare one of
>> those candidates a winner. Indeed, I would argue that is the worst possible
>> choice among all other options.
>>
>> The other options as I see it are:
>>
>> 1. Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board
>> member until the
>> next AGMM.
>>
>> 2. Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which case it
>> should be
>> considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from
>> appointing
>> anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.
>>
>>
>> 3. Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for seat 2
>> and preclude
>> the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to appoint
>> seats 5
>> and 6.
>>
>> As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the organization to
>> proceed with a full board until the next AGMM where a hopefully more
>> effective election can be accomplished.
>>
>> I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously
>> short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the CEO. (The
>> 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s
>> vacancy, and the CEO).
>>
>> The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying treating
>> the election of ?none of the above? differently in this circumstance than
>> in the case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases, more voters
>> felt that they didn?t want any of the options on the ballot and voted not
>> to elect any fo the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless
>> of the number of candidates and should be handled identically.
>>
>
> Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on ballot
> and has not effect on the results
>
>
> What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None of
> the above" with "Abstain" ?
>
> The guidelines  say:
> "The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for
> any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
> It does not say to "reject all  the proposed candidate".
> It says to not vote  for any candidate and the guidelines states that ,
> the candidate with the highest votes wins.
> Let us stop  this harmful interpretation.
>
>
> and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the elections
> rules. In the current  situation,  the guidelines are clear  and explicit
>  on how we should  handle the results. So let follow it and engage on
> discussions  for amending the rules  if we see need to do so.
>
>
> I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its
> doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like
> *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none of
> the above". Why does this seem so hard to grasp?
>
> Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other
> document   which support your statement?  Some seems to refuse to read the
> guidelines  and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
> The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your
> statement.
>
> I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one natural
> person on the list but not fine when there is more than one natural person
> on the list.
>
> One explanation:
> When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . I
> need a way to count the "no" vote.
> a- change the ballot to  "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
> b- use  natural candidate and " none of the above"
> We were  using b)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Hopefully additional clarity can be achieved prior to the next election
>> and we won?t have to face this issue again. Personally, I like the idea of
>> having ?none of the above? as an option in all cases.
>>
>
> Clarity and fairness is the outcome of the complaint regarding seat 2 here
> imho; for the rest we can agree to disagree.
>
>
> I agree to agree with Owen.
>
>
>
>>
>> Owen
>>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>>
>> On May 29, 2018, at 14:56 , Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Ashok as a lawyer you know that there is the law and spirit of the
>> law, please read bellow
>>
>> 2018-05-25 11:18 GMT+00:00 Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net>:
>>
>>> Dear All,
>>> I apologize for having  missed your rejoinder to my mail.
>>>
>>
>> Despite the delays, we appreciate your response as the matter is of great
>> concern.
>>
>>
>>> Your first question regards the reason as to why the same principle has
>>> been applied to the election for Seat 2
>>> notwithstanding the fact that there were two candidates.
>>> My response is that an election cannot be run on different principles.
>>> In this particular election the option "none of the above " was
>>> introduced for the first time and everyone was aware of this and it
>>> applied to all the elections held on that day. The Election guidelines were
>>> amended to acomodate this option.
>>>
>>
>> Yes indeed and the elections guidelines explicitely addressed the case of
>> only a single candidate running for election and the option " none of the
>> above" in this case got more votes than the sole candidate but is very
>> silent in the case of multiple candidates running for elections with the
>> option "none of the above" getting more votes.
>>
>> Anytime elections involve the option "none of the above", there are
>> always clear rules on how the results are interpreted and the actions that
>> must be taken when the option "none of the above" get more votes than the
>> multiple candidates.
>>
>> It's not my intention to teach you something here, but it does look very
>> bizarre that the legal counsel never bothered to help the board to make
>>  the guidelines unambiguous  and conform to members expectations.
>>
>>
>>> Consequently this option has to be taken in consideration when
>>> finalising the results.
>>> Where there were two candidates. The options for voters were (1) yes for
>>> candidate (1)-((2) yes for candidate 2-(3) yes for non of the above.Each
>>> one is mutually exclusive.
>>> Each score to be counted separately. The majority for either option wins
>>> the day.
>>>
>>
>> Following  your reasoning above and the guidelines which say the
>> candidate with the highest votes win, the members and community should then
>> accept "none of the above" as the elected candidate and seated although
>> "none of the above " did not go through Nomcom and was not listed on the
>> candidates slates  published by Nomcom.
>>
>> Which means seat 2 should not be declared vacant to be filled by board.
>>
>> Filling  seat 2 by board would constitute the violation of "none  of the
>> above" rights and of our rules and thus expose us to legal litigation.
>>
>>
>>
>>> One should not create a fictitious majority by adding votes polled by
>>> (1) & (2) together. The real majority was to all intents and purposes the
>>> option which polled the most votes. There is no need to extrapolate or
>>> interpret.
>>>
>>
>> There is No fictitious majority being created. It was just an example of
>> how this case could have been interpreted just like you do have your own
>> interpretation.
>>
>> In many cases,  abstention is compared to voters in order to decide how
>> to proceed with  validating an election and counting results..
>>
>>
>>
>>> Where there was one candidate there were two options- Yes for the single
>>> candidate or yes for  "non of the above"
>>>
>>
>> The case of a sole candidate is clear as per the guidelines and there are
>> no objections on seat 5 and 6 results.
>>
>>
>>> My reference to Art 10.2 was based on the decision of the members
>>> present at  past AGMMs to have the option of rejecting a single candidate
>>> or to give their approval to the single candidate, This has occurred more
>>> than once.
>>>
>>
>> And once again,  the case of a single candidate is handled as members
>> agreed to and not debated
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>>
>>
>>> Legal Counsel AFRINIC.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 24/05/2018 21:11, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear CEO and Chairman
>>>
>>> It looks like the Legal counsel has not  responded to this query bellow
>>>   regarding this very important issue about the recently concluded
>>> elections.
>>>
>>> Could you kindly remind him?
>>>
>>> Let us address this to a good conclusion in order to enforce the respect
>>> of our rules and processes.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Arnaud
>>>
>>> Le sam. 19 mai 2018 11:40, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> a ?crit :
>>>
>>>> Dear Legal Counsel,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input.  Much appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Your statements reinforce the interpretation of section 9.2 of the
>>>> guidelines with the origin of the "none of the above" option in the
>>>> election process and how votes for this option are considered in the case
>>>> of one candidate running for election for a seat. [Last bullet point]
>>>>
>>>> Case in which the election becomes a "yes" or "no"  vote for the only
>>>> candidate.   This point is clear and accepted and the objection is not for
>>>> the results for seat 5 and 6.
>>>>
>>>> What has not been clarified is how the same principle came to be
>>>> applied for the elections for seat 2 which had two candidates running for
>>>> the seat, one of whom got higher votes than the other, with the total
>>>> number of members casting votes in excess of those opting out.
>>>>
>>>> You also referred to art 10.2 of the constitution but did not elaborate
>>>> on the precedence that occurred that has become an integral part of
>>>> our guidelines.  As precedence automatically becomes part of the election
>>>> guidelines, it is important that we address issues which come up around the
>>>> election with care and unambiguously.
>>>>
>>>> Can you be so kind to clarify?
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes
>>>> Omo
>>>>
>>>> PS:  Grateful to listers to please keep this thread confined to the
>>>> subject.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 17 May 2018 at 17:17, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Members and Community,
>>>>> Mt views have been sought on the matter under reference.
>>>>> Please find same hereunder.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 17/05/2018 14:04, B
>>>>>
>>>>> *The Election Process and last AGMM.*
>>>>>
>>>>> The appointment of Directors is carried out during an AGMM of the
>>>>> Company ?Art 13.1 of the constitution.
>>>>>
>>>>> The election of the Directors is carried out in terms of Art 13.2 of
>>>>> the constitution which refers expressly to the election process approved by
>>>>> the Board.
>>>>>
>>>>> Moreover  Art 10.2 of the Constitution refers to precedent applied
>>>>> during an AFRINIC election and which de facto become part of the election
>>>>> guidelines.
>>>>>
>>>>> The election process  as it stands today is the one which was applied
>>>>> during  the elections held during the last AGMM without any
>>>>> opposition.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is what it provides:
>>>>>
>>>>> *9.2 Paper Ballot on Election Day*
>>>>>
>>>>> The voting conducted during the Annual General Members' Meeting is
>>>>> carried out via paper ballots containing a list of candidate names and a
>>>>> ballot number. Prior to the vote, all members present or participants
>>>>> holding a proxy will be requested to register and validate their membership
>>>>> status.
>>>>>
>>>>>    - Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region.
>>>>>          Each mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than
>>>>>          one mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be counted.
>>>>>          - The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to
>>>>>          not vote for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").
>>>>>          - This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any
>>>>>          personal data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be
>>>>>          counted as spoilt.
>>>>>          - Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or
>>>>>          proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the
>>>>>          highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners.
>>>>>          - In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for
>>>>>          that position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until
>>>>>          there is a winner.
>>>>>          - All open positions shall be subject to an election process
>>>>>          even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of
>>>>>          the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be
>>>>>          considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply
>>>>>          provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat
>>>>>
>>>>> The last amendment of the election guidelines introduced the voting
>>>>> option ? None of the Above?. ?(Vide second bullet point above.)Those voters
>>>>> who have cast their votes for ? None of the Above? have done so in
>>>>> compliance with the prevailing  constitution  and these are thus
>>>>> valid votes. Every voter was aware of the new option.
>>>>>
>>>>> The election guidelines are clear as to what happens when the ? None
>>>>> of the Above? option has a majority.- (Vide last bullet point above.)
>>>>>
>>>>> The election guidelines must be read as a whole and all the provisions
>>>>> read together.
>>>>>
>>>>> Legal Counsel ?AFRINIC
>>>>>
>>>>> 17.05.2018
>>>>> oubakar Barry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello Board and Legal Counsel,
>>>>>
>>>>> Good that Omo spotted this.
>>>>>
>>>>> It?s a matter of applying the board election process adopted by the
>>>>> board according to section 13.2 of the bylaws.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process
>>>>> describes the process and section 9 spells out how to interpret the results
>>>>> in the case there are more than one candidate and in the case there is only
>>>>> one candidate. These two cases are addressed separately and differently.
>>>>>
>>>>> It?s important to hear from the Board and the Legal Counsel, as the
>>>>> elections can be challenged.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please advise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards.
>>>>>
>>>>> Boubakar
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Greetings All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am looking at the BoD election process and it seems to me that the
>>>>>> recent e-mail from the Board Chair seeking nominations for vacant seats
>>>>>> should not be extended to Western Africa.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The particular clause I am referring to is in 9.2 -
>>>>>> https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    -
>>>>>>    Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy
>>>>>>    present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest
>>>>>>    number of votes in each category will be declared winners
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see from the list for West Africa that the candidate with the
>>>>>> highest number of votes should have been declared winner and this is Dr
>>>>>> Ousmane Tessa.  (btw, Dr Adewale Adedokun needs his name spelt correctly)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Western Africa - Seat 2*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dr Adelawe Abedekon - 43
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dr Ousmane Moussa Tessa - 56
>>>>>>
>>>>>> None of the above - 78
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Result: The seat is vacant*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The results from the other regions are valid and supported by the
>>>>>> following clause as they had one candidate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - All open positions shall be subject to an election process even
>>>>>>       if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the
>>>>>>       above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be
>>>>>>       considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of
>>>>>>       the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can AfriNIC and the nomcom please clarify?   We should not deprive Dr
>>>>>> Tessa of a rightful win ?. especially in the circumstances we find
>>>>>> ourselves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Omo
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Members-Discuss mailing listMembers-Discuss at afrinic.nethttps://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing listCommunity-Discuss at afrinic.nethttps://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> --
> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africamje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing listCommunity-Discuss at afrinic.nethttps://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
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From noah at neo.co.tz  Sat Jun  2 17:24:40 2018
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 20:24:40 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questioning - The AfriNIC voting system that
	disenfrachases most members
Message-ID: <CAEqgTWYWRP-bL1JwbYxcp3v_tam509k1tHfpmNNnpR_03mAMAw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018, 6:32 a.m. Owen DeLong, <owen at delong.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Jun 1, 2018, at 10:34 , Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The
> only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
>
> Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope
> of this discussion?  This is a matter of concern for the community at
> large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,  it is time to
> listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?
>
>
> If you chose not to vote, then really, you?ve effectively asked us not to
> listen to you.
>

Dear all,

The exchange above is from a different thread and I thought it would be
great to also discuss another challenge we face as members.

I dont believe that majority of AfriNIC members (90%) chose not to vote in
elections because most are disenfrachased by the AfriNIC voting system
which only allows members in good standing to vote which to me is pointless.

The fact of the matter is that NO single member ever seizes from being a
member before or after the various AfriNIC elections save for the members
whose membership has been terminated.

In fact I also think that most members dont even feel motivated to vote or
be involved in AfriNIC affaire because the organisation AfriNIC seems not
to give them the appetite or reason too.

I also tend to think that not so much outreach is done to sensitive members
about the importance of voting and how this affects the organisation that
serves then and I am not sure if this is done deliberately.

I have therefore never seen the rational behind the denial of the
opportunity to vote just because a member has delayed paying their annual
membership fees.

Penalties were introduced to cater for that purpose and the denial of
voting rights should not be an additional method of disenfrancising members.

We need to fix this so that the over 1000 members whose annual membership
payment either come in late for one reason or another can also have a voice
as they still remain members even after elections and indeed make the
payment inclusive of penalties.

Can the board task AfriNIC to reach out to its membership base with
information about;

1. Members rights to vote and why they do it.
2. The importance of nominating good candidates to the various leadership
positions.
3. The importance of participation in the PDP activities
4.The importance if querying the organisation performance in terms of
finance, human resources, service delivery among other things.


Cheers,
Noah
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From virtual.borg at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 19:02:27 2018
From: virtual.borg at gmail.com (Chevalier du Borg)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 23:02:27 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Progress Update - AFRINIC Strategy 2016 - 2020?
Message-ID: <CAH5aO8f4DWG56X8mjgmmEJ-HseFm=SZhUjgV3Cqo7je8+ji=mg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear BoD chair

I reference your communication below:

<snip>
September 2016, the Board published a ?Strategy Document? at <
https://afrinic.net/images/doc/strategy-document-2016-2020-20160708b.pdf>,
which was an extract from a Strategic Plan that the Board at that time
considered to be an internal document.

The Board has now decided to publish the full Strategic Plan for 2016 to
2020.  It is available at <
https://afrinic.net/images/Strategic-Plan-2016-2020-20180530.pdf>.

<snip>

That document was done in 2016. We are 2018.
Can BoD and CEO give us progress the plan?


I belief that one of most important job of BoD = insure Strategy is being
follow.
I belief that IS CEO #1 job: actual implementation of Strategy and
communicate success in objective way.

I see no information on AFRINIC website that give me indication on state of
progress.

That to me is failure at both BoD and CEO level to do their job or of
communicate progress on the job.

When I hear all BoD candidate speak or campaign in Dakar, fact that no one
of them speak in terms of company strategy was disappointment.

Stop fight about election. Start doing the work and communicate progress
and how benefit is being made for member, community and Africa.


-- 
Borg le Chevalier
___________________________________
"Common sense is what tells us the world is flat"
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From virtual.borg at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 19:08:23 2018
From: virtual.borg at gmail.com (Chevalier du Borg)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 23:08:23 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questioning - The AfriNIC voting system
 that disenfrachases most members
In-Reply-To: <CAEqgTWYWRP-bL1JwbYxcp3v_tam509k1tHfpmNNnpR_03mAMAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEqgTWYWRP-bL1JwbYxcp3v_tam509k1tHfpmNNnpR_03mAMAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5aO8e8k8yQO_jUeMO39uQ9t9=znsV6XCUM0Dky-ob0VpjgSw@mail.gmail.com>

Le sam. 2 juin 2018 ? 21:27, Noah <noah at neo.co.tz> a ?crit :

>
>
> 1. Members rights to vote and why they do it.
> 2. The importance of nominating good candidates to the various leadership
> positions.
> 3. The importance of participation in the PDP activities
> 4.The importance if querying the organisation performance in terms of
> finance, human resources, service delivery among other things.
>


This are good common sense suggestion. But IF BoD and AFRINIC need to be
told to do this, IF AFRINIC has not r?alise this for over 6 year and done
something., THEN we have a much much big problem.



>
>
> Cheers,
> Noah
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>


-- 
Borg le Chevalier
___________________________________
"Common sense is what tells us the world is flat"
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From noah at neo.co.tz  Sat Jun  2 19:03:44 2018
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 22:03:44 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Publication of Strategic Plan 2016-2020
In-Reply-To: <02FBD84A-1811-4373-9B59-0907E6EEECA9@gmail.com>
References: <02FBD84A-1811-4373-9B59-0907E6EEECA9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqgTWYnhrJNfOObC7da=hL6Bc2EnEFsjkEPpRrpr6Hh8d=zeg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Chairman

Thank you so much for transparently sharing this comprehensive strategic
plan for AfriNIC with the community.

We shall parse through it and revert back with some feedback but so far so
good.

Cheers,

Noah

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018, 11:41 a.m. Bope Christian, <christianbope at gmail.com>
wrote:

> [version fran?ais ci-dessous]
>
> Publication of Strategic Plan 2016-2020
>
> Dear AFRINIC members and community,
>
> In September 2016, the Board published a ?Strategy Document? at <
> https://afrinic.net/images/doc/strategy-document-2016-2020-20160708b.pdf>,
> which was an extract from a Strategic Plan that the Board at that time
> considered to be an internal document.
>
> The Board has now decided to publish the full Strategic Plan for 2016 to
> 2020.  It is available at <
> https://afrinic.net/images/Strategic-Plan-2016-2020-20180530.pdf>.
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Christian D. Bope, Ph.D
> Chairman, AFRINIC Board
>
>
> [fran?ais]
>
> Publication du plan strat?gique 2016-2020
>
> Chers membres et communaut? d'AFRINIC,
>
> En septembre 2016, le Conseil a publi? un ?document de strat?gie? ?
> l'adresse <
> https://afrinic.net/images/doc/strategy-document-2016-2020-20160708b.pdf>,
> qui ?tait un extrait d'un plan strat?gique que le Conseil ? ce moment
> consid?r? comme un document interne.
>
> Le Conseil a maintenant d?cid? de publier le Plan strat?gique complet pour
> 2016 ? 2020. Il est disponible ? <
> https://afrinic.net/images/Strategic-Plan-2016-2020-20180530.pdf>.
>
> Cordialement,
> Christian D. Bope, Ph.D
> Pr?sident du Conseil d?Administration d?AFRINIC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
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From owen at delong.com  Sat Jun  2 22:51:18 2018
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 15:51:18 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questioning - The AfriNIC voting system
 that disenfrachases most members
In-Reply-To: <CAEqgTWYWRP-bL1JwbYxcp3v_tam509k1tHfpmNNnpR_03mAMAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEqgTWYWRP-bL1JwbYxcp3v_tam509k1tHfpmNNnpR_03mAMAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C1997C8-FE94-4110-B11D-47A142D7A070@delong.com>



> On Jun 2, 2018, at 10:24 , Noah <noah at neo.co.tz> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sat, 2 Jun 2018, 6:32 a.m. Owen DeLong, <owen at delong.com <mailto:owen at delong.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Jun 1, 2018, at 10:34 , Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com <mailto:honest1989 at gmail.com>> wrote: 
>>> 
>>> And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
>> Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope of this discussion?  This is a matter of concern for the community at large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,  it is time to listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?
> 
> If you chose not to vote, then really, you?ve effectively asked us not to listen to you.
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> The exchange above is from a different thread and I thought it would be great to also discuss another challenge we face as members.
> 
> I dont believe that majority of AfriNIC members (90%) chose not to vote in elections because most are disenfrachased by the AfriNIC voting system which only allows members in good standing to vote which to me is pointless.

The only way to not be a member in good standing is if you aren?t paying your bill. Are you saying that members who don?t pay their bills should still retain their voting rights? That?s absurd IMHO.

> The fact of the matter is that NO single member ever seizes from being a member before or after the various AfriNIC elections save for the members whose membership has been terminated.

I think you mean ceases rather than seizes. Assuming that?s the case, I would argue that if you aren?t paying your bill, then you should either be treated as a member not in good standing (you loose some or all of your membership privileges, including voting, but remain a member), or, your membership should be terminated.

Any organization which wishes to no longer be a member is free to return their address space and resign from the organization.

Saying that no member stops being a member unless their membership is terminated is sort of like saying no cars stop unless someone stops them. It?s true, but it doesn?t mean much.

> In fact I also think that most members dont even feel motivated to vote or be involved in AfriNIC affaire because the organisation AfriNIC seems not to give them the appetite or reason too.

In which case, it appears that they are in such a state of apathy towards the issues that they do not wish to offer opinions on the matter(s) for us to listen to. In effect, I would say that is a request that we not listen to them, as I stated above.

> I also tend to think that not so much outreach is done to sensitive members about the importance of voting and how this affects the organisation that serves then and I am not sure if this is done deliberately.

Please define ?sensitive members?. In any democratic process, decisions are made by those that show up. I don?t think anyone is deliberately making an effort to disenfranchise anyone else here. If you think there are productive ways in which participation and suffrage could be improved,  please elaborate.

> I have therefore never seen the rational behind the denial of the opportunity to vote just because a member has delayed paying their annual membership fees.

Why should one be allowed the privileges of membership if one has not met the obligations of membership?

> Penalties were introduced to cater for that purpose and the denial of voting rights should not be an additional method of disenfrancising members.

When you give suffrage to members that have not met the obligations of membership, you make it cheaper and easier to engage in the art of organizational takeover, among other problems. You?re also effectively encouraging other members who actively support the organization to stop doing so.

> We need to fix this so that the over 1000 members whose annual membership payment either come in late for one reason or another can also have a voice as they still remain members even after elections and indeed make the payment inclusive of penalties.

One option might be for them to find a way to pay on time. Another option might be for AfriNIC to offer some form of ability to change your renewal date for a fee + prorated charges. However, offering suffrage to those who have not met the obligations of remaining a member in good standing is not, IMHO, a good solution as I feel it incentivizes wrong behavior.

> Can the board task AfriNIC to reach out to its membership base with information about;
> 
> 1. Members rights to vote and why they do it.
> 2. The importance of nominating good candidates to the various leadership positions.
> 3. The importance of participation in the PDP activities
> 4.The importance if querying the organisation performance in terms of finance, human resources, service delivery among other things.

I think this would be good.

Owen

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From gregoire.ehoumi at yahoo.fr  Tue Jun  5 16:29:32 2018
From: gregoire.ehoumi at yahoo.fr (Gregoire Ehoumi)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2018 12:29:32 -0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
Message-ID: <h65tpivn1b60526k93d18rah.1528216027962@email.lge.com>


Hello,

The below question / request for clarification? from Marcus is still unanswered.
Please, Can CEO, legal counsel, Nomcom/election committee 2017 or board clarify the difference between 2017 and 2018 results interpretation regarding? "none of above"?

Thanks.
Gregoire
------ Original message------From: Marcus K. G. AdomeyDate: Sat, Jun 2, 2018 6:34 AMTo: mje at posix.co.za;General Discussions of AFRINIC;AfriNIC Discuss;Ornella GANKPA;Cc: Subject:Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections


Hello,





Thanks Ornella and others who has been actively participating in this discussion to help clear this issue once for good.





Can someone explains to me why? ?none of the above?? votes were not counted for? 2017 elections? as it? was done for election 2018 ?





https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election?
 - 2017





https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections - 2018











Marcus











From: Ornella GANKPA >

Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 5:34:13 PM

To: mje at posix.co.za; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss

Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
?


Hi Mark
My comments inline




Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit?:








On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:



Owen,?



2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>:


Arnaud,



While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that there is some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY not have been a legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go changing the rules of the election and violating
 the expectations of the voters, membership, and community after the election has run.





Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been made; let's fix it!>>








And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.


Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope of this discussion?? This is a matter of concern for the community at large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,? it is time to listen to the other
 1409 members who did not vote?










?





Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above on the ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.





No one is raising objection even now on ?this option being on the ballot as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the correct implementation ?of the guidelines as written.


?





Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the above to change the result among the remaining two candidates, it is not legitimate to simply discard the none of the above votes and declare one of those candidates a winner. Indeed, I
 would argue that is the worst possible choice among all other options.



The other options as I see it are:



1.
Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board member until the
next AGMM.



2.
Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which case it should be
considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from appointing
anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.





3.
Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for seat 2 and preclude
the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to appoint seats 5
and 6.



As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the organization to proceed with a full board until the next AGMM where a hopefully more effective election can be accomplished.



I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the CEO. (The 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s vacancy, and the CEO).



The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying treating the election of ?none of the above? differently in this circumstance than in the case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases, more voters felt that they didn?t want any of the
 options on the ballot and voted not to elect any fo the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless of the number of candidates and should be handled identically.







Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on ballot and has not effect on the results










What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None of the above" with "Abstain" ?


The guidelines? say:

"The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"

It does not say to "reject all? the proposed candidate". 

It says to not vote? for any candidate and the guidelines states that , the candidate with the highest votes wins.

Let us stop? this harmful interpretation.










and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the elections rules. In the current ?situation, ?the guidelines are clear ?and explicit ?on how we should ?handle the results. So let follow it and engage on discussions ?for amending the rules
 ?if we see need to do so.







I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none of the above". Why does this seem so hard to
 grasp? 
Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other document?? which support your statement?? Some seems to refuse to read the guidelines? and just regurgitate whatever works for them.

The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your statement.




I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one natural person on the list but not fine when there is more than one natural person on the list.


One explanation:

When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . I need a way to count the "no" vote.

a- change the ballot to? "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "

b- use? natural candidate and " none of the above"

We were? using b)









?
















Hopefully additional clarity can be achieved prior to the next election and we won?t have to face this issue again. Personally, I like the idea of having ?none of the above? as an option in all cases.






Clarity and fairness is the outcome of the complaint regarding seat 2 here imho; for the rest we can agree to disagree.








I agree to agree with Owen.







?






Owen






Thanks
?










On May 29, 2018, at 14:56 , Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com> wrote:



Dear Ashok as a lawyer you know that there is the law and spirit of the law, please read bellow ?



2018-05-25 11:18 GMT+00:00 Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net>:


Dear All,

I apologize for having? missed your rejoinder to my mail.



?
Despite the delays, we appreciate your response as the matter is of great concern.
?

Your first question regards the reason as to why the same principle has been applied to the election for Seat 2


notwithstanding the fact that there were two candidates.

My response is that an election cannot be run on different principles. In this particular election the option "none of the above " was


introduced for the first time and everyone was aware of this and it applied to all the elections held on that day. The Election guidelines were amended to acomodate this option.






Yes indeed and the elections guidelines explicitely addressed the case of only a single candidate running for election and the option " none of the above" in this case got more votes than the sole candidate but is very silent in the case of multiple candidates
 running for elections with the option "none of the above" getting more votes.?






Anytime elections involve the option "none of the above", there are always clear rules on how the results are interpreted and the actions that must be taken when the option "none of the above" get more votes than the multiple candidates.?



It's not my intention to teach you something here, but it does look very bizarre that the legal counsel never bothered to help the board to make ?the guidelines unambiguous ?and conform to members expectations.

?

Consequently this option has to be taken in consideration when finalising the results.

Where there were two candidates. The options for voters were (1) yes for candidate (1)-((2) yes for candidate 2-(3) yes for non of the above.Each one is mutually exclusive.

Each score to be counted separately. The majority for either option wins the day.






Following ?your reasoning above and the guidelines which say the candidate with the highest votes win, the members and community should then accept "none of the above" as the elected candidate and seated although "none of the above " did not go through
 Nomcom and was not listed on the candidates slates ?published by Nomcom.



Which means seat 2 should not be declared vacant to be filled by board.



Filling ?seat 2 by board would constitute the violation of "none ?of the above" rights and of our rules and thus expose us to legal litigation.




?

One should not create a fictitious majority by adding votes polled by (1) & (2) together. The real majority was to all intents and purposes the option which polled the most votes. There is no need to extrapolate or interpret.








There is No fictitious majority being created. It was just an example of how this case could have been interpreted just like you do have your own interpretation.?



In many cases, ?abstention is compared to voters in order to decide how to proceed with ?validating an election and counting results..




?

Where there was one candidate there were two options- Yes for the single candidate or yes for? "non of the above"






The case of a sole candidate is clear as per the guidelines and there are no objections on seat 5 and 6 results.


?

My reference to Art 10.2 was based on the decision of the members present at? past AGMMs to have the option of rejecting a single candidate or to give their approval to the single candidate, This has occurred more than once.






And once again, ?the case of a single candidate is handled as members agreed to and not debated






Thank you




?

Legal Counsel AFRINIC.






On 24/05/2018 21:11, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:





Dear CEO and Chairman



It looks like the Legal counsel has not ?responded to this query bellow ? regarding this very important issue about the recently concluded elections.?



Could you kindly remind him? ?



Let us address this to a good conclusion in order to enforce the respect of our rules and processes.



Regards?



Arnaud?




Le sam. 19 mai 2018 11:40, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> a ?crit?:






Dear Legal Counsel,





Thanks for your input.? Much appreciated.?



Your statements reinforce the interpretation of section 9.2 of the guidelines with the origin of the "none of the above" option in the election process and how votes for this option are considered in the case of one candidate running for election for a
 seat. [Last bullet point]?





Case in which the election becomes a "yes" or "no"? vote for the only candidate.? ?This point?is clear and accepted and the objection is not for the results for seat 5 and 6.



What has not been clarified is how the same principle came to be applied for the elections for seat 2 which had two candidates running for the seat, one of whom got higher votes than the other, with the total number of members casting votes in excess of
 those opting out.



You also?referred to art 10.2 of the constitution?but did not elaborate on the precedence that occurred that has become an integral?part of our?guidelines.? As precedence automatically becomes part of the election guidelines, it is important that we address
 issues which come up around the election with care and unambiguously.?





Can you be so kind to clarify??



Best wishes
Omo



PS:? Grateful to listers to please keep?this thread confined to the subject.









On 17 May 2018 at 17:17, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net> wrote:


Dear Members and Community,

Mt views have been sought on the matter under reference.

Please find same hereunder.




On 17/05/2018 14:04, B
The Election Process and last AGMM.
The appointment of Directors is carried out during an AGMM of the Company ?Art 13.1 of the constitution.
The election of the Directors is carried out in terms of Art 13.2 of the constitution which refers expressly to the election process approved by the Board.
Moreover? Art 10.2 of the Constitution refers to precedent applied during an AFRINIC election and which de facto become part of the election guidelines.

The election process? 
as it stands today is the one which was applied during? the elections held during the last AGMM without any opposition.
This is what it provides:

9.2 Paper Ballot on Election Day
The voting conducted during the Annual General Members' Meeting is carried out via paper ballots containing a list of candidate names and a ballot number. Prior to the vote, all members present or participants
 holding a proxy will be requested to register and validate their membership status.





Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region. Each mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than one mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be
 counted. The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").
This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any personal data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be counted as spoilt.
Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners.
In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for that position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until there is a winner.
All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall
 be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat



The last amendment of the election guidelines introduced the voting option ? None of the Above?. ?(Vide second bullet point above.)Those voters who have cast their votes for ? None of the Above? have done so in
 compliance with the prevailing? constitution ?and these are thus valid votes. Every voter was aware of the new option.
The election guidelines are clear as to what happens when the ? None of the Above? option has a majority.- (Vide last bullet point above.)
The election guidelines must be read as a whole and all the provisions read together.
Legal Counsel ?AFRINIC
17.05.2018
oubakar Barry wrote:






Hello Board and Legal Counsel,
Good that Omo spotted this.

It?s a matter of applying the board election process adopted by the board according to section 13.2 of
 the bylaws. 
https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process
 describes the process and section 9 spells out how to interpret the results in the case there are more than one candidate and in the case there is only one candidate. These two cases are addressed separately and differently.
It?s important to hear from the Board and the Legal Counsel, as the elections can be challenged.
Please advise.
Regards.


Boubakar


On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Omo Oaiya 
<Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> wrote:



Greetings All,



I am looking at the BoD election process and it seems to me that the recent e-mail from the Board Chair seeking nominations for vacant seats should not be extended to Western Africa. ?



The particular clause I am referring to is in 9.2 -?https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process





Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners




I see from the list for West Africa that the candidate with the highest number of votes should have been declared winner and this is Dr Ousmane Tessa. ?(btw, Dr Adewale Adedokun needs his name spelt correctly)









Western Africa - Seat 2

Dr Adelawe Abedekon - 43

Dr Ousmane Moussa Tessa - 56

None of the above - 78

Result: The seat is vacant








The results from the other regions are valid and supported by the following clause as they had one candidate.?




All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested
 to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.? 





Can AfriNIC and the nomcom please clarify? ? We should not deprive Dr Tessa of a rightful win ?. especially in the circumstances we find ourselves.




Omo



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-- 
Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za



 

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From virtual.borg at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 03:47:14 2018
From: virtual.borg at gmail.com (Chevalier du Borg)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 07:47:14 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Progress Update - AFRINIC Strategy 2016 -
	2020?
In-Reply-To: <CAH5aO8f4DWG56X8mjgmmEJ-HseFm=SZhUjgV3Cqo7je8+ji=mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5aO8f4DWG56X8mjgmmEJ-HseFm=SZhUjgV3Cqo7je8+ji=mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5aO8ebe97anCfsmykFBKiFPSMb-rv09LjMyYOZOgCSvEnmrg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear BoD Chair


This a gentil reminder of the above. I as member of community will like to
have clear information about status of strategy plan. I should not have to
remind you as that is a key part of the job of board.



Le sam. 2 juin 2018 ? 23:02, Chevalier du Borg <virtual.borg at gmail.com> a
?crit :

> Dear BoD chair
>
> I reference your communication below:
>
> <snip>
> September 2016, the Board published a ?Strategy Document? at <
> https://afrinic.net/images/doc/strategy-document-2016-2020-20160708b.pdf>,
> which was an extract from a Strategic Plan that the Board at that time
> considered to be an internal document.
>
> The Board has now decided to publish the full Strategic Plan for 2016 to
> 2020.  It is available at <
> https://afrinic.net/images/Strategic-Plan-2016-2020-20180530.pdf>.
>
> <snip>
>
> That document was done in 2016. We are 2018.
> Can BoD and CEO give us progress the plan?
>
>
> I belief that one of most important job of BoD = insure Strategy is being
> follow.
> I belief that IS CEO #1 job: actual implementation of Strategy and
> communicate success in objective way.
>
> I see no information on AFRINIC website that give me indication on state
> of progress.
>
> That to me is failure at both BoD and CEO level to do their job or of
> communicate progress on the job.
>
> When I hear all BoD candidate speak or campaign in Dakar, fact that no one
> of them speak in terms of company strategy was disappointment.
>
> Stop fight about election. Start doing the work and communicate progress
> and how benefit is being made for member, community and Africa.
>
>
> --
> Borg le Chevalier
> ___________________________________
> "Common sense is what tells us the world is flat"
>


-- 
Borg le Chevalier
___________________________________
"Common sense is what tells us the world is flat"
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From virtual.borg at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 03:50:43 2018
From: virtual.borg at gmail.com (Chevalier du Borg)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 07:50:43 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <h65tpivn1b60526k93d18rah.1528216027962@email.lge.com>
References: <h65tpivn1b60526k93d18rah.1528216027962@email.lge.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5aO8e0E5_8APyYfJ2pVdtPS3z2yEw_9_48VXXoNCQoZmfDMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Le mar. 5 juin 2018 ? 20:43, Gregoire Ehoumi via Community-Discuss <
community-discuss at afrinic.net> a ?crit :

>
> The below question / request for clarification  from Marcus is still
> unanswered.
> Please, Can CEO, legal counsel, Nomcom/election committee 2017 or board
> clarify the difference between 2017 and 2018 results interpretation
> regarding  "none of above"?
>
>
 --- they forget?
 --- NOMCOM or staff did not do their job properly?

Whatever the reason, it don't matter to the current election where majority
of member vote "None of the Above"




-- 
Borg le Chevalier
___________________________________
"Common sense is what tells us the world is flat"
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From noah at neo.co.tz  Wed Jun  6 18:30:55 2018
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 21:30:55 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
 <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqgTWaZF+H=370xbsGk5nN70MA_WGYoJ6HrHgwmpvE=Gf3zFA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018, 9:18 a.m. John Walu, <walu.john at gmail.com> wrote:

> Just looking at this discussion thread and thinking:
>
> **Does AfriNIC have an election appeal process?*
>

I have checked the entire website including the bylaws and I cant find
anything like it..

Can Nomcom folks perhaps clarify if there is such a mechanism?

Noah
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From Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com  Thu Jun  7 09:34:17 2018
From: Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com (Ben Roberts)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 09:34:17 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <CAEqgTWaZF+H=370xbsGk5nN70MA_WGYoJ6HrHgwmpvE=Gf3zFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
 <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEqgTWaZF+H=370xbsGk5nN70MA_WGYoJ6HrHgwmpvE=Gf3zFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <VI1PR0302MB3181150568C9E1DA5E9AF14DE8640@VI1PR0302MB3181.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Are we really still talking about this?

From: Noah [mailto:noah at neo.co.tz]
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 9:31 PM
To: John Walu <walu.john at gmail.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net>; Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections


On Sat, 2 Jun 2018, 9:18 a.m. John Walu, <walu.john at gmail.com<mailto:walu.john at gmail.com>> wrote:
Just looking at this discussion thread and thinking:

*Does AfriNIC have an election appeal process?

I have checked the entire website including the bylaws and I cant find anything like it..

Can Nomcom folks perhaps clarify if there is such a mechanism?

Noah
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From noah at neo.co.tz  Thu Jun  7 09:39:49 2018
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 12:39:49 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <VI1PR0302MB3181150568C9E1DA5E9AF14DE8640@VI1PR0302MB3181.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
 <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEqgTWaZF+H=370xbsGk5nN70MA_WGYoJ6HrHgwmpvE=Gf3zFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <VI1PR0302MB3181150568C9E1DA5E9AF14DE8640@VI1PR0302MB3181.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqgTWZpsz0y1ym_F7xtkVSfZM833zbxzcxYdZePu17dvYufsA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 7 Jun 2018, 12:34 p.m. Ben Roberts, <Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com>
wrote:

> Are we really still talking about this?
>

Oh yes and folks will appreciate some answers from the Board, the CEO or
the legal councel who are somehoe dodging the question "why the 2017
results never took into consideration the "None of the Above" votes".

And I will appreciate also getting information on the an election appeal
process after all what is an election when the candidates cant appeal where
they see fit.

Noah
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From Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com  Thu Jun  7 09:44:44 2018
From: Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com (Ben Roberts)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 09:44:44 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <CAEqgTWZpsz0y1ym_F7xtkVSfZM833zbxzcxYdZePu17dvYufsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
 <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEqgTWaZF+H=370xbsGk5nN70MA_WGYoJ6HrHgwmpvE=Gf3zFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <VI1PR0302MB3181150568C9E1DA5E9AF14DE8640@VI1PR0302MB3181.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>,
 <CAEqgTWZpsz0y1ym_F7xtkVSfZM833zbxzcxYdZePu17dvYufsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B67F2DD4-EA64-4D03-AF08-85376478D720@liquidtelecom.com>

But isn?t this an academic discussion?

I?m not seeing any of the candidates that were rejected by majority by the members raising any requests to appeal?

Sent from my iPhone

On 7 Jun 2018, at 12:40, Noah <noah at neo.co.tz<mailto:noah at neo.co.tz>> wrote:


On Thu, 7 Jun 2018, 12:34 p.m. Ben Roberts, <Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Are we really still talking about this?

Oh yes and folks will appreciate some answers from the Board, the CEO or the legal councel who are somehoe dodging the question "why the 2017 results never took into consideration the "None of the Above" votes".

And I will appreciate also getting information on the an election appeal process after all what is an election when the candidates cant appeal where they see fit.

Noah


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From ousmane at musatesa.net  Thu Jun  7 13:31:14 2018
From: ousmane at musatesa.net (Ousmane MOUSSA TESSA)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2018 14:31:14 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <CAEqgTWZpsz0y1ym_F7xtkVSfZM833zbxzcxYdZePu17dvYufsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
 <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEqgTWaZF+H=370xbsGk5nN70MA_WGYoJ6HrHgwmpvE=Gf3zFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <VI1PR0302MB3181150568C9E1DA5E9AF14DE8640@VI1PR0302MB3181.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWZpsz0y1ym_F7xtkVSfZM833zbxzcxYdZePu17dvYufsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0b9486dc6f5b36dc4dd0cd7c5ffa0363@musatesa.net>

Bien s?r Mr Ben de Liquid Telecom! Tu n'es pas habilit? ? escamoter une 
question dont tu n'es pas le destinataire! Un peu de respect ? ceux qui 
ont pos? la question!

Pas seulement ceux qui ont pos? la question au Conseil d'Administration, 
au Directeur G?n?ral et Conseiller juridique, il existe d'autres membres 
de la communaut? qui attendent des explications simples et cr?dibles!


"L'agitation n'est pas un signe de vitalit?". Pensez-vous que vous 
pouvez juste par votre agitation concert?e, vider le d?bat sur ces 
?lections?

Ousmane



Le 07-06-2018 10:39, Noah a ?crit?:
> On Thu, 7 Jun 2018, 12:34 p.m. Ben Roberts,
> <Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> 
>> Are we really still talking about this?
> 
> Oh yes and folks will appreciate some answers from the Board, the CEO
> or the legal councel who are somehoe dodging the question "why the
> 2017 results never took into consideration the "None of the Above"
> votes".
> 
> And I will appreciate also getting information on the an election
> appeal process after all what is an election when the candidates cant
> appeal where they see fit.
> 
> Noah
> 
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss

-- 

**************************************************
Dr Ousmane MOUSSA TESSA
D?partement de math?matiques et d'informatique
Universit? A. Moumouni, Niamey, NIGER
****************************************************
Adresse postale: B.P. 10.111 Niamey, NIGER
T?l?phone  (domicile): +227 20 31 52 28
(mobile) :  +227 93 77 74 93/ 96 27 99 92 / 91 49 16 39
****************************************************
E-mail: ousmane(at)musatesa.net ou musatesa(at)yahoo.com
Web site: www.musatesa.net
Skype : musatesa
************************************************



From noah at neo.co.tz  Thu Jun  7 13:34:17 2018
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 16:34:17 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <B67F2DD4-EA64-4D03-AF08-85376478D720@liquidtelecom.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
 <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEqgTWaZF+H=370xbsGk5nN70MA_WGYoJ6HrHgwmpvE=Gf3zFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <VI1PR0302MB3181150568C9E1DA5E9AF14DE8640@VI1PR0302MB3181.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWZpsz0y1ym_F7xtkVSfZM833zbxzcxYdZePu17dvYufsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B67F2DD4-EA64-4D03-AF08-85376478D720@liquidtelecom.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqgTWaJrk+WqKujW9fjWdA-fVjcazDNo0OTkdiVssFW0_9P5A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 7 Jun 2018, 12:44 p.m. Ben Roberts, <Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com>
wrote:

> But isn?t this an academic discussion?
>
> I?m not seeing any of the candidates that were rejected by majority by the
> members raising any requests to appeal?
>


We have major issues that need answers in order to fix the flaws that are
apparently being avoided by those tasked with answers.

If the board or the CEO or the legal counsel dodges answering some of this
questions then how shall we fix what is clearly broken.

Noah

>
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From ousmane at musatesa.net  Thu Jun  7 13:44:36 2018
From: ousmane at musatesa.net (Ousmane MOUSSA TESSA)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2018 14:44:36 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <CAEqgTWaJrk+WqKujW9fjWdA-fVjcazDNo0OTkdiVssFW0_9P5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
 <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEqgTWaZF+H=370xbsGk5nN70MA_WGYoJ6HrHgwmpvE=Gf3zFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <VI1PR0302MB3181150568C9E1DA5E9AF14DE8640@VI1PR0302MB3181.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWZpsz0y1ym_F7xtkVSfZM833zbxzcxYdZePu17dvYufsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B67F2DD4-EA64-4D03-AF08-85376478D720@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAEqgTWaJrk+WqKujW9fjWdA-fVjcazDNo0OTkdiVssFW0_9P5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <241986c2c2b5dad816066836a76002bb@musatesa.net>

L? Ben de Liquid Telecoms, vous allez loin dans vos all?gations!

En tant que candidat, j'ai la conviction que que c'est bien une MAJORITE 
qui a jug? utile de r?partir leurs voix entre nos deux candidats!

Nous ?vitons de nous positionner individuellement en face de "ceux-l?".

Please check your basic arithmetic avant d'avancer des id?es sans 
fondement!

Ousmane


  Le 07-06-2018 14:34, Noah a ?crit?:
> On Thu, 7 Jun 2018, 12:44 p.m. Ben Roberts,
> <Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> 
>> But isn?t this an academic discussion?
>> 
>> I?m not seeing any of the candidates that were rejected by
>> majority by the members raising any requests to appeal?
> 
> We have major issues that need answers in order to fix the flaws that
> are apparently being avoided by those tasked with answers.
> 
> If the board or the CEO or the legal counsel dodges answering some of
> this questions then how shall we fix what is clearly broken.
> 
> Noah
> 
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss

-- 

**************************************************
Dr Ousmane MOUSSA TESSA
D?partement de math?matiques et d'informatique
Universit? A. Moumouni, Niamey, NIGER
****************************************************
Adresse postale: B.P. 10.111 Niamey, NIGER
T?l?phone  (domicile): +227 20 31 52 28
(mobile) :  +227 93 77 74 93/ 96 27 99 92 / 91 49 16 39
****************************************************
E-mail: ousmane(at)musatesa.net ou musatesa(at)yahoo.com
Web site: www.musatesa.net
Skype : musatesa
************************************************



From owen at delong.com  Thu Jun  7 14:16:45 2018
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 07:16:45 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
	Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <CAEqgTWaJrk+WqKujW9fjWdA-fVjcazDNo0OTkdiVssFW0_9P5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
 <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEqgTWaZF+H=370xbsGk5nN70MA_WGYoJ6HrHgwmpvE=Gf3zFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <VI1PR0302MB3181150568C9E1DA5E9AF14DE8640@VI1PR0302MB3181.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWZpsz0y1ym_F7xtkVSfZM833zbxzcxYdZePu17dvYufsA@mail!
 .gmail.com> <B67F2DD4-EA64-4D03-AF08-85376478D720@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAEqgTWaJrk+WqKujW9fjWdA-fVjcazDNo0OTkdiVssFW0_9P5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4205B646-EF8E-40FD-AC58-263CDC7CA444@delong.com>

The result is not broken. The guidelines need to be improved to avoid the potential for the proposed alternate and illogical conclusion and provide greater clarity. 

That can be achieved without further answers from board, legal, or CEO. I realize that doesn?t provide the outcome that those who proposed this illogical (albeit literal) alternative interpretation were hoping for, but it is the only rational outcome. 

Owen


> On Jun 7, 2018, at 06:34, Noah <noah at neo.co.tz> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Thu, 7 Jun 2018, 12:44 p.m. Ben Roberts, <Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>> But isn?t this an academic discussion?
>> 
>> I?m not seeing any of the candidates that were rejected by majority by the members raising any requests to appeal?
> 
> 
> 
> We have major issues that need answers in order to fix the flaws that are apparently being avoided by those tasked with answers.
> 
> If the board or the CEO or the legal counsel dodges answering some of this questions then how shall we fix what is clearly broken.
> 
> Noah
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From Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net  Thu Jun  7 14:45:15 2018
From: Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net (Omo Oaiya)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 15:45:15 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <4205B646-EF8E-40FD-AC58-263CDC7CA444@delong.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
 <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEqgTWaZF+H=370xbsGk5nN70MA_WGYoJ6HrHgwmpvE=Gf3zFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <VI1PR0302MB3181150568C9E1DA5E9AF14DE8640@VI1PR0302MB3181.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <B67F2DD4-EA64-4D03-AF08-85376478D720@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAEqgTWaJrk+WqKujW9fjWdA-fVjcazDNo0OTkdiVssFW0_9P5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <4205B646-EF8E-40FD-AC58-263CDC7CA444@delong.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1eoi37cjs7kkxwnsgd=E3wNpHNMDFxJwyVjzp9wqREkbCXOg@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 June 2018 at 15:16, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:

> The result is not broken. The guidelines need to be improved to avoid the
> potential for the proposed alternate and illogical conclusion and provide
> greater clarity.
>

I marvel at your logic.  The result was derived form same guidelines that
have potential for illogical conclusion and insufficient clarity yet it is
not broken?

>
> That can be achieved without further answers from board, legal, or CEO. I
> realize that doesn?t provide the outcome that those who proposed this
> illogical (albeit literal) alternative interpretation were hoping for, but
> it is the only rational outcome.
>

I think you let the board, legal or CEO respond to this before AFRINIC is
subjected to unneccessary legal  exposure

Omo


> Owen
>
>
> On Jun 7, 2018, at 06:34, Noah <noah at neo.co.tz> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, 7 Jun 2018, 12:44 p.m. Ben Roberts, <Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com>
> wrote:
>
>> But isn?t this an academic discussion?
>>
>> I?m not seeing any of the candidates that were rejected by majority by
>> the members raising any requests to appeal?
>>
>
>
> We have major issues that need answers in order to fix the flaws that are
> apparently being avoided by those tasked with answers.
>
> If the board or the CEO or the legal counsel dodges answering some of this
> questions then how shall we fix what is clearly broken.
>
> Noah
>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From owen at delong.com  Thu Jun  7 15:16:11 2018
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 08:16:11 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
	Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <CAG1eoi37cjs7kkxwnsgd=E3wNpHNMDFxJwyVjzp9wqREkbCXOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
 <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEqgTWaZF+H=370xbsGk5nN70MA_WGYoJ6HrHgwmpvE=Gf3zFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <VI1PR0302MB3181150568C9E1DA5E9AF14DE8640@VI1PR0302MB3181.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <B67F2DD4-EA64-4D03-AF08-85376478D720@liquidtelecom.com> !
 <CAEqgTWaJrk+WqKujW9fjWdA-fVjcazDNo0OTkdiVssFW0_9P5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <4205B646-EF8E-40FD-AC58-263CDC7CA444@delong.com>
 <CAG1eoi37cjs7kkxwnsgd=E3wNpHNMDFxJwyVjzp9wqREkbCXOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2394BF3D-4BE4-442C-B6EC-0FCF7176DB1A@delong.com>



> On Jun 7, 2018, at 07:45, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 7 June 2018 at 15:16, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
>> The result is not broken. The guidelines need to be improved to avoid the potential for the proposed alternate and illogical conclusion and provide greater clarity. 
> 
> I marvel at your logic.  The result was derived form same guidelines that have potential for illogical conclusion and insufficient clarity yet it is not broken? 

There is one logical interpretation of the guidelines. The result is conformance to that interpretation. 

There are alternative interpretations which meet the literal guidelines, but which come to illogical conclusions. Additional clarity in the guidelines could eliminate the possibility that those interpretations could be considered legitimate. 

>> 
>> That can be achieved without further answers from board, legal, or CEO. I realize that doesn?t provide the outcome that those who proposed this illogical (albeit literal) alternative interpretation were hoping for, but it is the only rational outcome. 
> 
> I think you let the board, legal or CEO respond to this before AFRINIC is subjected to unneccessary legal  exposure

I?ve done nothing to prevent them from responding. I?ve merely suggested that the community?s effort would be better spent improving the guidelines vs. whining about the current situation and asking board/CEO/legal to say more than has already been said by Ashok. 

Owen

> 
> Omo
> 
>> 
>> Owen
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 7, 2018, at 06:34, Noah <noah at neo.co.tz> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, 7 Jun 2018, 12:44 p.m. Ben Roberts, <Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>>>> But isn?t this an academic discussion?
>>>> 
>>>> I?m not seeing any of the candidates that were rejected by majority by the members raising any requests to appeal?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> We have major issues that need answers in order to fix the flaws that are apparently being avoided by those tasked with answers.
>>> 
>>> If the board or the CEO or the legal counsel dodges answering some of this questions then how shall we fix what is clearly broken.
>>> 
>>> Noah
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>> 
> 
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From Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net  Thu Jun  7 15:36:06 2018
From: Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net (Omo Oaiya)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 16:36:06 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
	Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <2394BF3D-4BE4-442C-B6EC-0FCF7176DB1A@delong.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
 <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEqgTWaZF+H=370xbsGk5nN70MA_WGYoJ6HrHgwmpvE=Gf3zFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <VI1PR0302MB3181150568C9E1DA5E9AF14DE8640@VI1PR0302MB3181.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <B67F2DD4-EA64-4D03-AF08-85376478D720@liquidtelecom.com> <CAEqgTWa
 Jrk+WqKujW9fjWdA-fVjcazDNo0OTkdiVssFW0_9P5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <4205B646-EF8E-40FD-AC58-263CDC7CA444@delong.com>
 <CAG1eoi37cjs7kkxwnsgd=E3wNpHNMDFxJwyVjzp9wqREkbCXOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2394BF3D-4BE4-442C-B6EC-0FCF7176DB1A@delong.com>
Message-ID: <46497170-393B-411A-86A0-D4B93B19FAB1@wacren.net>

There lies the fallacy in your interpretation and your presumption to speak for Ashok.  

Nowhere in our guidelines does it say that the ?None of the Above? option receiving the plurality of the votes means a win in other than the case of a sole candidate.  On the other hand, the guidelines clearly describe the procedure to take in the case of candidates with the highest votes in a category.

I still await the response from AFRINIC that clarifies this.

Omo


> On 7 Jun 2018, at 16:16, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 7, 2018, at 07:45, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net <mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On 7 June 2018 at 15:16, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com <mailto:owen at delong.com>> wrote:
>> The result is not broken. The guidelines need to be improved to avoid the potential for the proposed alternate and illogical conclusion and provide greater clarity. 
>> 
>> I marvel at your logic.  The result was derived form same guidelines that have potential for illogical conclusion and insufficient clarity yet it is not broken? 
> 
> There is one logical interpretation of the guidelines. The result is conformance to that interpretation. 
> 
> There are alternative interpretations which meet the literal guidelines, but which come to illogical conclusions. Additional clarity in the guidelines could eliminate the possibility that those interpretations could be considered legitimate. 
> 
>> 
>> That can be achieved without further answers from board, legal, or CEO. I realize that doesn?t provide the outcome that those who proposed this illogical (albeit literal) alternative interpretation were hoping for, but it is the only rational outcome. 
>> 
>> I think you let the board, legal or CEO respond to this before AFRINIC is subjected to unneccessary legal  exposure
> 
> I?ve done nothing to prevent them from responding. I?ve merely suggested that the community?s effort would be better spent improving the guidelines vs. whining about the current situation and asking board/CEO/legal to say more than has already been said by Ashok. 
> 
> Owen
> 
>> 
>> Omo
>> 
>> 
>> Owen
>> 
>> 
>> On Jun 7, 2018, at 06:34, Noah <noah at neo.co.tz <mailto:noah at neo.co.tz>> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 7 Jun 2018, 12:44 p.m. Ben Roberts, <Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com <mailto:Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>>> But isn?t this an academic discussion?
>>> 
>>> I?m not seeing any of the candidates that were rejected by majority by the members raising any requests to appeal?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> We have major issues that need answers in order to fix the flaws that are apparently being avoided by those tasked with answers.
>>> 
>>> If the board or the CEO or the legal counsel dodges answering some of this questions then how shall we fix what is clearly broken.
>>> 
>>> Noah
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>> 
>> 

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From owen at delong.com  Thu Jun  7 16:27:42 2018
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 09:27:42 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <46497170-393B-411A-86A0-D4B93B19FAB1@wacren.net>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
 <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEqgTWaZF+H=370xbsGk5nN70MA_WGYoJ6HrHgwmpvE=Gf3zFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <VI1PR0302MB3181150568C9E1DA5E9AF14DE8640@VI1PR0302MB3181.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <B67F2DD4-EA64-4D03-AF08-85376478D720@liquidtelecom.com> <CAEqgTWa
 Jrk+WqKujW9fjWdA-fVjcazDNo0OTkdiVssFW0_9P5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <4205B646-EF8E-40FD-AC58-263CDC7CA444@delong.com>
 <CAG1eoi37cjs7kkxwnsgd=E3wNpHNMDFxJwyVjzp9wqREkbCXOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2394BF3D-4BE4-442C-B6EC-0FCF7176DB1A@delong.com>
 <46497170-393B-411A-86A0-D4B93B19FAB1@wacren.net>
Message-ID: <8CB08414-79F3-4770-8CF7-6D2E5AE34186@delong.com>



> On Jun 7, 2018, at 08:36 , Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> wrote:
> 
> There lies the fallacy in your interpretation and your presumption to speak for Ashok.  

I do not speak for Ashok nor did I ever claim that I did. I do refer to Ashok?s own statements on the matter.

There lies one of the many fallacies in your accusations.

> Nowhere in our guidelines does it say that the ?None of the Above? option receiving the plurality of the votes means a win in other than the case of a sole candidate.  On the other hand, the guidelines clearly describe the procedure to take in the case of candidates with the highest votes in a category.

Sigh? Yes, this is the literal, however illogical interpretation which you have repeatedly put forward. As I said, it is a legitimate literal interpretation of the guidelines regardless of it?s complete and utter failure to provide a logical interpretation or conclusion given what the guidelines do say.

There is the ?letter of the law? literal exact word for word meaning, which, if taken to reductio ad absurdum does, in fact, leave one with your conclusion.

Then there is the ?spirit of the law? which is the clear and only logical conclusion one can draw about the intent of the guidelines.

Ashok?s previous statements on the matter and the posted and announced election results are consistent with the ?spirit of the law? in this case. I agree that the guidelines should be clarified so that the letter of the law more clearly states the spirit of the law and lessens the probability of these wasteful reductio ad absurdum arguments. I do not believe any change to the result of the election is warranted.

I speak only for myself here. Obviously others may be of a different opinion.

I believe a number of others have spoken in agreement with my interpretation of the situation. I believe a few others have spoken in agreement with your position, but even most of them have not advocated unwinding the election.

I?ve clearly stated multiple reasons that unwinding the election would be problematic and unfair to the voters in earlier messages. I won?t repeat that here.

> I still await the response from AFRINIC that clarifies this.

I suggest you refer back to Ashok?s previous comments which have done exactly that in terms of the current election.

If you can?t find them, let me know and I will do the research for you.

Owen

> 
> Omo
> 
> 
>> On 7 Jun 2018, at 16:16, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com <mailto:owen at delong.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jun 7, 2018, at 07:45, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net <mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> On 7 June 2018 at 15:16, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com <mailto:owen at delong.com>> wrote:
>>> The result is not broken. The guidelines need to be improved to avoid the potential for the proposed alternate and illogical conclusion and provide greater clarity. 
>>> 
>>> I marvel at your logic.  The result was derived form same guidelines that have potential for illogical conclusion and insufficient clarity yet it is not broken? 
>> 
>> There is one logical interpretation of the guidelines. The result is conformance to that interpretation. 
>> 
>> There are alternative interpretations which meet the literal guidelines, but which come to illogical conclusions. Additional clarity in the guidelines could eliminate the possibility that those interpretations could be considered legitimate. 
>> 
>>> 
>>> That can be achieved without further answers from board, legal, or CEO. I realize that doesn?t provide the outcome that those who proposed this illogical (albeit literal) alternative interpretation were hoping for, but it is the only rational outcome. 
>>> 
>>> I think you let the board, legal or CEO respond to this before AFRINIC is subjected to unneccessary legal  exposure
>> 
>> I?ve done nothing to prevent them from responding. I?ve merely suggested that the community?s effort would be better spent improving the guidelines vs. whining about the current situation and asking board/CEO/legal to say more than has already been said by Ashok. 
>> 
>> Owen
>> 
>>> 
>>> Omo
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Owen
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jun 7, 2018, at 06:34, Noah <noah at neo.co.tz <mailto:noah at neo.co.tz>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, 7 Jun 2018, 12:44 p.m. Ben Roberts, <Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com <mailto:Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>>>> But isn?t this an academic discussion?
>>>> 
>>>> I?m not seeing any of the candidates that were rejected by majority by the members raising any requests to appeal?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> We have major issues that need answers in order to fix the flaws that are apparently being avoided by those tasked with answers.
>>>> 
>>>> If the board or the CEO or the legal counsel dodges answering some of this questions then how shall we fix what is clearly broken.
>>>> 
>>>> Noah
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>>> 
>>> 
> 

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From Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net  Fri Jun  8 05:03:26 2018
From: Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net (Omo Oaiya)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 06:03:26 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <8CB08414-79F3-4770-8CF7-6D2E5AE34186@delong.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
 <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEqgTWaZF+H=370xbsGk5nN70MA_WGYoJ6HrHgwmpvE=Gf3zFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <VI1PR0302MB3181150568C9E1DA5E9AF14DE8640@VI1PR0302MB3181.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <B67F2DD4-EA64-4D03-AF08-85376478D720@liquidtelecom.com>
 <4205B646-EF8E-40FD-AC58-263CDC7CA444@delong.com>
 <CAG1eoi37cjs7kkxwnsgd=E3wNpHNMDFxJwyVjzp9wqREkbCXOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2394BF3D-4BE4-442C-B6EC-0FCF7176DB1A@delong.com>
 <46497170-393B-411A-86A0-D4B93B19FAB1@wacren.net>
 <8CB08414-79F3-4770-8CF7-6D2E5AE34186@delong.com>
Message-ID: <CAG1eoi1eW+mN2-Z6vtkC8nO54zXoGOuoDtHEZ4RwRXK-_KaXeA@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 June 2018 at 17:27, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Jun 7, 2018, at 08:36 , Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> wrote:
>
> There lies the fallacy in your interpretation and your presumption to
> speak for Ashok.
>
>
> I do not speak for Ashok nor did I ever claim that I did. I do refer to
> Ashok?s own statements on the matter.
>
> There lies one of the many fallacies in your accusations.
>


You refer to Ashoks statements and interpret them rather let him clarify, so
you are speaking for him, albeit unsolicited.



>
> Nowhere in our guidelines does it say that the ?None of the Above? option
> receiving the plurality of the votes means a win in other than the case of
> a sole candidate.  On the other hand, the guidelines clearly describe the
> procedure to take in the case of candidates with the highest votes in a
> category.
>
>
> Sigh? Yes, this is the literal, however illogical interpretation which you
> have repeatedly put forward. As I said, it is a legitimate literal
> interpretation of the guidelines regardless of it?s complete and utter
> failure to provide a logical interpretation or conclusion given what the
> guidelines do say.
>


It is clear that you are are not reading guideline correctly as every
reader knows that if one removes the ?if statement?, the else defaults to
?the candidate with highest win? where definition of candidate is by nomcom



>
> There is the ?letter of the law? literal exact word for word meaning,
> which, if taken to reductio ad absurdum does, in fact, leave one with your
> conclusion.
>
> Then there is the ?spirit of the law? which is the clear and only logical
> conclusion one can draw about the intent of the guidelines.
>
> Ashok?s previous statements on the matter and the posted and announced
> election results are consistent with the ?spirit of the law? in this case.
> I agree that the guidelines should be clarified so that the letter of the
> law more clearly states the spirit of the law and lessens the probability
> of these wasteful reductio ad absurdum arguments. I do not believe any
> change to the result of the election is warranted.
>
> I speak only for myself here. Obviously others may be of a different
> opinion.
>

More uninformed presumptions.  Frameworks for elections have to be in
accordance with both the spirit and letter of the law.

At this point, I will let Dr Tessa decide if he wants to take this further
or not.

Omo
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From owen at delong.com  Fri Jun  8 05:08:00 2018
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 22:08:00 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <CAG1eoi1eW+mN2-Z6vtkC8nO54zXoGOuoDtHEZ4RwRXK-_KaXeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
 <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEqgTWaZF+H=370xbsGk5nN70MA_WGYoJ6HrHgwmpvE=Gf3zFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <VI1PR0302MB3181150568C9E1DA5E9AF14DE8640@VI1PR0302MB3181.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <B67F2DD4-EA64-4D03-AF08-85376478D720@liquidtelecom.com>
 <4205B646-EF8E-40FD-AC58-263CDC7CA444@delong.com>
 <CAG1eoi37cjs7kkxwnsgd=E3wNpHNMDFxJwyVjzp9wqREkbCXOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2394BF3D-4BE4-442C-B6EC-0FCF7176DB1A@delong.com>
 <46497170-393B-411A-86A0-D4B93B19FAB1@wacren.net>
 <8CB08414-79F3-4770-8CF7-6D2E5AE34186@delong.com>
 <CAG1eoi1eW+mN2-Z6vtkC8nO54zXoGOuoDtHEZ4RwRXK-_KaXeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1E94F8C2-38D0-46CC-870A-67E8296925DF@delong.com>



> On Jun 7, 2018, at 22:03 , Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> wrote:
> 
> On 7 June 2018 at 17:27, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com <mailto:owen at delong.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Jun 7, 2018, at 08:36 , Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net <mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> There lies the fallacy in your interpretation and your presumption to speak for Ashok.  
> 
> I do not speak for Ashok nor did I ever claim that I did. I do refer to Ashok?s own statements on the matter.
> 
> There lies one of the many fallacies in your accusations.
> 
> 
> You refer to Ashoks statements and interpret them rather let him clarify, so you are speaking for him, albeit unsolicited.

I did not interpret them. Sorry if you thought I did. I referred to them and stated my opinion which I believe is supported by his statements.

Really, must we engage in such sophistry and meta-discussion rather than addressing the actual substance of the situation?

>> Nowhere in our guidelines does it say that the ?None of the Above? option receiving the plurality of the votes means a win in other than the case of a sole candidate.  On the other hand, the guidelines clearly describe the procedure to take in the case of candidates with the highest votes in a category.
> 
> Sigh? Yes, this is the literal, however illogical interpretation which you have repeatedly put forward. As I said, it is a legitimate literal interpretation of the guidelines regardless of it?s complete and utter failure to provide a logical interpretation or conclusion given what the guidelines do say.
> 
> 
> It is clear that you are are not reading guideline correctly as every reader knows that if one removes the ?if statement?, the else defaults to ?the candidate with highest win? where definition of candidate is by nomcom

It is clear that you are choosing to call my reading of the guidelines incorrect just as I call your reading of them illogical.

> 
> There is the ?letter of the law? literal exact word for word meaning, which, if taken to reductio ad absurdum does, in fact, leave one with your conclusion.
> 
> Then there is the ?spirit of the law? which is the clear and only logical conclusion one can draw about the intent of the guidelines.
> 
> Ashok?s previous statements on the matter and the posted and announced election results are consistent with the ?spirit of the law? in this case. I agree that the guidelines should be clarified so that the letter of the law more clearly states the spirit of the law and lessens the probability of these wasteful reductio ad absurdum arguments. I do not believe any change to the result of the election is warranted.
> 
> I speak only for myself here. Obviously others may be of a different opinion.
> 
> More uninformed presumptions.  Frameworks for elections have to be in accordance with both the spirit and letter of the law.  

What in the above do you call a presumption?

> At this point, I will let Dr Tessa decide if he wants to take this further or not.

That would be a refreshing change.

Owen


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From alan.barrett at afrinic.net  Fri Jun  8 06:34:26 2018
From: alan.barrett at afrinic.net (Alan Barrett)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 10:34:26 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] NTIA Notice of Inquiry on International
	Internet Policy Priorities
Message-ID: <3B88F558-1F5F-4FDD-90E4-52C3AD31A0CF@afrinic.net>

Dear AFRINIC members and community,

The NTIA (part of the US government?s Department of Commerce) has published a "Notice of Inquiry on International Internet Policy Priorities? at <https://www.ntia.doc.gov/federal-register-notice/2018/notice-inquiry-international-internet-policy-priorities>.  The details are in a PDF file linked from that page.  I will paste the full text of the notice below.

The IANA transition, ICANN, the DNS, and the GAC, are mentioned several times, and RIRs are mentioned once.  There is also a specific question about whether the IANA transition should be reversed.

Anybody may respond directly to the NTIA.  Please note the rather short deadline: Comments must be submitted to the NTIA by 2 July 2018.

AFRINIC or the NRO may respond to this inquiry.  Please comment in the community-discuss at afrinic.net mailing list if you want your comments to be taken into account in any response from AFRINIC.


Regards,

Alan Barrett
CEO, AFRINIC

===

[fran?ais]

Chers membres et communaut? d'AFRINIC,

La NTIA (qui fait partie du D?partement du Commerce du gouvernement des ?tats-Unis) a publi? un "Avis d'enqu?te sur les priorit?s de la politique Internet internationale" ? l'adresse <https://www.ntia.doc.gov/federal-register-notice/2018/notice-inquiry-international-internet-policy-priorities>. Les d?tails sont dans un fichier PDF li? ? partir de cette page.  Je vais coller le texte int?gral de l'avis ci-dessous.

La transition de l'IANA, l'ICANN, le DNS et le GAC sont mentionn?s ? plusieurs reprises, et les RIR sont mentionn?s une fois. Il y a aussi une question sp?cifique ? savoir si la transition de l'IANA devrait ?tre invers?e.

N'importe qui peut r?pondre directement ? la NTIA. Veuillez noter le d?lai relativement court: Les commentaires doivent ?tre soumis ? la NTIA avant le 2 juillet 2018.

AFRINIC ou le NRO peut r?pondre ? cette demande. Veuillez commenter dans la communaut?-discuter sur la liste de diffusion afrinic.net si vous voulez que vos commentaires soient pris en compte dans toute r?ponse d?AFRINIC.


Cordialement,

Alan Barrett
DG, AFRINIC

===

[text copied from the notice of inquiry]

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

National Telecommunications and Information Administration

[Docket No. 180124068?8068?01]

RIN 0660?XC041

International internet Policy Priorities

AGENCY: National Telecommunications and Information Administration, U.S. Department of Commerce.

ACTION: Notice of inquiry.

SUMMARY:

Recognizing the vital importance of the internet and digital communications to U.S. innovation, prosperity, education, and civic and cultural life, the National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) of the U.S. Department of Commerce has made it a top priority to encourage growth and innovation for the internet and internetenabled economy. Towards that end, NTIA is seeking comments and recommendations from all interested stakeholders on its international internet policy priorities for 2018 and beyond. These comments will help inform NTIA to identify priority issues and help NTIA effectively leverage its resources and expertise to address those issues.

DATES: Comments are due on or before 5 p.m. Eastern Time on July 2, 2018.

ADDRESSES:

Written comments may be submitted by email to iipp2018@ ntia.doc.gov. Comments submitted by email should be machine-readable and should not be copy-protected. Written comments also may be submitted by mail to the National Telecommunications and Information Administration, U.S. Department of Commerce, 1401 Constitution Avenue NW, Room 4725, Attn: Fiona Alexander, Washington, DC 20230.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT:

Fiona Alexander, National Telecommunications and Information Administration, U.S. Department of Commerce, 1401 Constitution Avenue NW, Room 4706, Washington, DC 20230; telephone (202) 482?1866; email falexander at ntia.doc.gov. Please direct media inquiries to NTIA?s Office of Public Affairs, (202) 482?7002, or at press at ntia.doc.gov.

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:

Background: Within the U.S. Department of Commerce, the National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) is the Executive Branch agency responsible for advising the President on telecommunications and information policy.1 NTIA was established in 1978 in response to the growing national consensus that ??telecommunications and information are vital to the public welfare, national security, and competitiveness of the United States,?? and that, ??rapid technological advances being made in the telecommunications and information fields make it imperative that the United States maintain effective national and international policies and programs capable of taking advantage of continued advancements.?? 2

In the 40 years since its inception, NTIA has made growth and innovation in communications technologies?most recently internet communications?a cornerstone of its mission. The Administration?s 2017 National Security Strategy reaffirmed that ??[t]he flow of data and an open, interoperable internet are inseparable from the success of the U.S. economy,?? and stated unequivocally that, ??the United States will advocate for open, interoperable communications, with minimal barriers to the global exchange of information and services.?? 3

NTIA?s Office of International Affairs: The Office of International Affairs (OIA) leads NTIA?s overseas work. It plays a central role in the formulation of the U.S. Government?s international information and communications technology policies, particularly with respect to the internet and the internetenabled economy. OIA?s diverse policymaking efforts include protecting and promoting an open and interoperable internet, advocating for the free flow of information, and strengthening the global marketplace for American digital products and services.

OIA advances these and related priorities at such global venues as the International Telecommunication Union (ITU), the internet Governance Forum (IGF), the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) forum, the Organization of American States (OAS) the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), the G7 and G20 forums, as well as through international trade negotiations and bilateral and multilateral dialogues. In addition, OIA leads NTIA?s role as the expert Executive Branch agency responsible for issues related to the internet?s Domain Name System (DNS). In this regard, OIA oversees legal agreements related to the management of the .us and .edu top-level domain names, and represents the U.S. Government in its interactions with the internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN), the notfor-profit corporation that coordinates the DNS, including serving as the official U.S. representative to the Governmental Advisory Committee (GAC).4

Through this Notice, NTIA is soliciting comments and recommendations from stakeholders on its international internet policy priorities. These comments will help NTIA and the U.S. Government identify the most important issues facing the internet globally. They will also help NTIA leverage its resources and policy expertise most effectively to respond to stakeholders? priorities and interests. Comments are welcomed from all interested stakeholders?including the private sector, the technical community, academia, government, civil society, and interested individuals.

For the purposes of this notice of inquiry, OIA has organized questions into four broad categories: (1) The free flow of information and jurisdiction; (2) the multistakeholder approach to internet governance; (3) privacy and security; and (4) emerging technologies and trends. NTIA seeks public input on any and/or all of these four categories.

The Free Flow of Information and Jurisdiction: NTIA tracks and responds to global developments pertaining to free flow of information and internetrelated jurisdictional issues. The free flow of information is critical not only to the protection of free speech online, but to the continued growth of the global economy. Certain governments, however, are increasingly imposing restrictions on the free movement of data. These restrictions may be put in place for legitimate reasons?such as concerns about privacy, taxation, and law enforcement access to data?but they are often undertaken for far less valid reasons, such as domestic surveillance and protectionism. In either case, restrictions on the free flow of information are jeopardizing the economic, social, and educational opportunities provided by the internet.

Perhaps even more importantly, the free flow of information on the internet enables basic human rights, such as the freedom of expression. Yet here there is similarly an emerging trend of repressive governments restricting access to information that they deem to be politically or socially objectionable. This is pursued through various means, such as by blocking certain applications, impeding the use of Virtual Private Networks (VPNs), or through the total shutdown of internet communications within national territories. These actions often violate internet users? rights to freedom of expression, association, and peaceful assembly.

Relatedly, there is an emerging trend of national courts issuing judgments on internet-related court cases that risk forcing American companies to globally remove information hosted online. Problematically, what may be censored information in one country could be protected speech in other countries, including the United States. Such jurisdictional disputes illustrate the tension between a global, borderless internet and national sovereignty. NTIA is seeking input from all stakeholders on potential responses to these, and related, jurisdictional challenges.

Multistakeholder Approach to internet Governance: NTIA has strongly advocated for the multistakeholder approach to internet governance and policy development. NTIA?s advocacy of the multistakeholder approach is reflected in its support of organizations and forums utilizing the approach, including ICANN, the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), Regional Internet Registries (RIRs), the IGF, and others. In addition to these bodies and forums, NTIA strives to build support for the approach within multilateral institutions, such as the ITU, and through bilateral engagement.

One of NTIA?s primary initiatives in the area of multistakeholder internet governance was the privatization of the management of the DNS. This was completed in October 2016 when the contract between NTIA and ICANN for the performance of the Internet Assigned Names and Numbers (IANA) functions expired.5 NTIA seeks public input from all stakeholders on what U.S. priorities should be now within ICANN and broader DNS policy.

Another area of emphasis for NTIA has been the promotion of the IGF, which serves as a global platform for multistakeholder dialogues on internetrelated public policy issues. Unlike other United Nations processes, the IGF program is organized by the multistakeholder community, not by governments alone. NTIA has been involved in the IGF since its inception, having served as a lead negotiator at the UN World Summit on the Information Society (WSIS), as well as serving a member of the IGF Multistakeholder Advisory Group and its intercessional work.6 NTIA seeks public input from all stakeholders on opportunities for IGF improvement.

Privacy and Security: NTIA, as an agency within the U.S. Department of Commerce, approaches cybersecurity from a commercial perspective. This means that NTIA?s policy work is grounded in the belief that cybersecurity risks should be viewed not exclusively as a national security threat, but as a threat to economic growth and innovation. As the 2017 National Security Strategy notes, a ??strong, defensible cyber infrastructure fosters economic growth, protects our liberties, and advances our national security.?? 7 Internationally, OIA approaches cybersecurity with an understanding that the cyber threat is a global problem that requires international coordination. Accordingly, OIA has worked within the OECD, APEC, the IGF, and elsewhere, to promote strong, industryled cybersecurity risk-management practices.8

In the area of privacy and data protection, NTIA has worked overseas to advocate for smart and nondiscriminatory privacy rules. While different countries are going to take different approaches to protecting citizens? privacy, NTIA argues that these differences need not impede global commerce. NTIA works with colleagues from the International Trade Administration (ITA) and the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) to advance interoperable privacy regimes and mechanisms, such as the APEC Cross Border Rules (CBPRs) and the E.U.-U.S. Privacy Shield Arrangement.9

Emerging Technologies and Trends: NTIA also advocates for policies that enable entrepreneurs and innovators to take risks and to find global markets for new digital products and services. This advocacy often draws NTIA into discussions about access to broadband internet service, digital literacy, intellectual property, and technological standardization. Over the last decade, these discussions have intensified, as many countries have invested greater resources into developing national innovation strategies, and have increasingly brought those ideas into international forums, such as APEC and the OECD. Over the coming years, these discussions will increasingly focus on issues such as the economic and social impacts of artificial intelligence, the workforce changes brought on by automation and new internet-enabled business models, and the growth of blockchain applications, to name a few. NTIA welcomes comments on how OIA should participate in international discussions of these issues, as well as other issues related to emerging technologies and trends.

Request for Comments

Instructions for Commenters: NTIA invites comments on the full range of questions presented by this Notice, including issues that are not specifically raised. Commenters are encouraged to address any or all of the following questions. Comments that contain references to specific court cases, studies, and/or research should include copies of the referenced materials with the submitted comments. Commenters should include the name of the person or organization filing the comment, as well as a page number on each page of their submissions. All comments received are a part of the public record and will generally be posted on the NTIA website, http://www.ntia.doc. gov/, without change. All personal identifying information (for example, name or address) voluntarily submitted by the commenter may be publicly accessible. Do not submit confidential business information or otherwise sensitive or protected information.

I. The Free Flow of Information and Jurisdiction

A. What are the challenges to the free flow of information online?

B. Which foreign laws and policies restrict the free flow of information online? What is the impact on U.S. companies and users in general?

C. Have courts in other countries issued internet-related judgments that apply national laws to the global internet? What have been the practical effects on U.S. companies of such judgements? What have the effects been on users?

D. What are the challenges to freedom of expression online?

E. What should be the role of all stakeholders globally?governments, companies, technical experts, civil society and end users?in ensuring free expression online?

F. What role can NTIA play in helping to reduce restrictions on the free flow of information over the internet and ensuring free expression online?

G. In which international organizations or venues might NTIA most effectively advocate for the free flow of information and freedom of expression? What specific actions should NTIA and the U.S. Government take?

H. How might NTIA better assist with jurisdictional challenges on the internet?

II. Multistakeholder Approach to Internet Governance

A. Does the multistakeholder approach continue to support an environment for the internet to grow and thrive? If so, why? If not, why not?

B. Are there public policy areas in which the multistakeholder approach works best? If yes, what are those areas and why? Are there areas in which the multistakeholder approach does not work effectively? If there are, what are those areas and why?

C. Are the existing accountability structures within multistakeholder internet governance sufficient? If not, why not? What improvements can be made?

D. Should the IANA Stewardship Transition be unwound? If yes, why and how? If not, why not?

E. What should be NTIA?s priorities within ICANN and the GAC?

F. Are there any other DNS related activities NTIA should pursue? If yes, please describe.

G. Are there barriers to engagement at the IGF? If so, how can we lower these barriers?

H. Are there improvements that can be made to the IGF?s structure, organization, planning processes, or intercessional work programs? If so, what are they?

I. What, if any, action can NTIA take to help raise awareness about the IGF and foster stakeholder engagement?

J. What role should multilateral organizations play in internet governance?

III. Privacy and Security

A. In what ways are cybersecurity threats harming international commerce? In what ways are the responses to those threats harming international commerce?

B. Which international venues are the most appropriate to address questions of digital privacy? What privacy issues should NTIA prioritize in those international venues?

IV. Emerging Technologies and Trends

A. What emerging technologies and trends should be the focus of international policy discussions? Please provide specific examples.

B. In which international venues should conversations about emerging technology and trends take place? Which international venues are the most effective? Which are the least effective?

C. What are the current best practices for promoting innovation and investment for emerging technologies? Are these best practices universal, or are they dependent upon a country?s level of economic development? How should NTIA promote these best practices?

For any response, commenters may wish to consider describing specific goals and actions that NTIA, the Department, or the U.S. Government in general, might take (on its own or in conjunction with the private sector) to achieve those goals; the benefits and costs associated with the action; whether the proposal is agency-specific or interagency; the rationale and evidence to support it; and the roles of other stakeholders.

Dated: May 31, 2018.

David J. Redl, Assistant Secretary for Communications and Information.

[FR Doc. 2018?12075 Filed 6?4?18; 8:45 am] BILLING CODE 3510?60?P

===





From madomey at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  8 08:34:32 2018
From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 08:34:32 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR0602MB3603D94F2DDB07C581775A2BB9610@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>,
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>,
 <AM0PR0602MB3603D94F2DDB07C581775A2BB9610@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <AM0PR0602MB3603ED46AB5E0A109B734281B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Dear CEO and Legal Counsel,


I wrote asking for some clarification which should come from your offices. Up to now I have not received any response. I would be most grateful if you could spare some few minutes from your heavy schedule to do justice to my questions?


Thanks


Marcus


________________________________
From: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 10:32:18 AM
To: mje at posix.co.za; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss; Ornella GANKPA
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections

Hello,

Thanks Ornella and others who has been actively participating in this discussion to help clear this issue once for good.

Can someone explains to me why  ?none of the above?  votes were not counted for  2017 elections  as it  was done for election 2018 ?

https<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>://<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>www.afrinic.net<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>  - 2017

https<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections>://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections> - 2018




Marcus



________________________________
From: Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 5:34:13 PM
To: mje at posix.co.za; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections


Hi Mark

My comments inline

Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit :


On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
Owen,

2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com<mailto:owen at delong.com>>:
Arnaud,

While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that there is some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY not have been a legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go changing the rules of the election and violating the expectations of the voters, membership, and community after the election has run.

Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been made; let's fix it!>>

And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope of this discussion?  This is a matter of concern for the community at large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,  it is time to listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?




Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above on the ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.

No one is raising objection even now on  this option being on the ballot as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the correct implementation  of the guidelines as written.


Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the above to change the result among the remaining two candidates, it is not legitimate to simply discard the none of the above votes and declare one of those candidates a winner. Indeed, I would argue that is the worst possible choice among all other options.

The other options as I see it are:

1. Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board member until the
next AGMM.

2. Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which case it should be
considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from appointing
anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.


3. Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for seat 2 and preclude
the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to appoint seats 5
and 6.

As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the organization to proceed with a full board until the next AGMM where a hopefully more effective election can be accomplished.

I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the CEO. (The 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s vacancy, and the CEO).

The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying treating the election of ?none of the above? differently in this circumstance than in the case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases, more voters felt that they didn?t want any of the options on the ballot and voted not to elect any fo the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless of the number of candidates and should be handled identically.

Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on ballot and has not effect on the results

What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None of the above" with "Abstain" ?
The guidelines  say:
"The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
It does not say to "reject all  the proposed candidate".
It says to not vote  for any candidate and the guidelines states that , the candidate with the highest votes wins.
Let us stop  this harmful interpretation.


and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the elections rules. In the current  situation,  the guidelines are clear  and explicit  on how we should  handle the results. So let follow it and engage on discussions  for amending the rules  if we see need to do so.

I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none of the above". Why does this seem so hard to grasp?
Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other document   which support your statement?  Some seems to refuse to read the guidelines  and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your statement.

I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one natural person on the list but not fine when there is more than one natural person on the list.
One explanation:
When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . I need a way to count the "no" vote.
a- change the ballot to  "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
b- use  natural candidate and " none of the above"
We were  using b)





Hopefully additional clarity can be achieved prior to the next election and we won?t have to face this issue again. Personally, I like the idea of having ?none of the above? as an option in all cases.

Clarity and fairness is the outcome of the complaint regarding seat 2 here imho; for the rest we can agree to disagree.

I agree to agree with Owen.



Owen

Thanks


On May 29, 2018, at 14:56 , Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com<mailto:amelnaud at gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Ashok as a lawyer you know that there is the law and spirit of the law, please read bellow

2018-05-25 11:18 GMT+00:00 Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net<mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>>:
Dear All,
I apologize for having  missed your rejoinder to my mail.

Despite the delays, we appreciate your response as the matter is of great concern.

Your first question regards the reason as to why the same principle has been applied to the election for Seat 2
notwithstanding the fact that there were two candidates.
My response is that an election cannot be run on different principles. In this particular election the option "none of the above " was
introduced for the first time and everyone was aware of this and it applied to all the elections held on that day. The Election guidelines were amended to acomodate this option.

Yes indeed and the elections guidelines explicitely addressed the case of only a single candidate running for election and the option " none of the above" in this case got more votes than the sole candidate but is very silent in the case of multiple candidates running for elections with the option "none of the above" getting more votes.

Anytime elections involve the option "none of the above", there are always clear rules on how the results are interpreted and the actions that must be taken when the option "none of the above" get more votes than the multiple candidates.

It's not my intention to teach you something here, but it does look very bizarre that the legal counsel never bothered to help the board to make  the guidelines unambiguous  and conform to members expectations.

Consequently this option has to be taken in consideration when finalising the results.
Where there were two candidates. The options for voters were (1) yes for candidate (1)-((2) yes for candidate 2-(3) yes for non of the above.Each one is mutually exclusive.
Each score to be counted separately. The majority for either option wins the day.

Following  your reasoning above and the guidelines which say the candidate with the highest votes win, the members and community should then accept "none of the above" as the elected candidate and seated although "none of the above " did not go through Nomcom and was not listed on the candidates slates  published by Nomcom.

Which means seat 2 should not be declared vacant to be filled by board.

Filling  seat 2 by board would constitute the violation of "none  of the above" rights and of our rules and thus expose us to legal litigation.


One should not create a fictitious majority by adding votes polled by (1) & (2) together. The real majority was to all intents and purposes the option which polled the most votes. There is no need to extrapolate or interpret.

There is No fictitious majority being created. It was just an example of how this case could have been interpreted just like you do have your own interpretation.

In many cases,  abstention is compared to voters in order to decide how to proceed with  validating an election and counting results..


Where there was one candidate there were two options- Yes for the single candidate or yes for  "non of the above"

The case of a sole candidate is clear as per the guidelines and there are no objections on seat 5 and 6 results.

My reference to Art 10.2 was based on the decision of the members present at  past AGMMs to have the option of rejecting a single candidate or to give their approval to the single candidate, This has occurred more than once.

And once again,  the case of a single candidate is handled as members agreed to and not debated

Thank you


Legal Counsel AFRINIC.


On 24/05/2018 21:11, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
Dear CEO and Chairman

It looks like the Legal counsel has not  responded to this query bellow   regarding this very important issue about the recently concluded elections.

Could you kindly remind him?

Let us address this to a good conclusion in order to enforce the respect of our rules and processes.

Regards

Arnaud

Le sam. 19 mai 2018 11:40, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net<mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> a ?crit :
Dear Legal Counsel,

Thanks for your input.  Much appreciated.

Your statements reinforce the interpretation of section 9.2 of the guidelines with the origin of the "none of the above" option in the election process and how votes for this option are considered in the case of one candidate running for election for a seat. [Last bullet point]

Case in which the election becomes a "yes" or "no"  vote for the only candidate.   This point is clear and accepted and the objection is not for the results for seat 5 and 6.

What has not been clarified is how the same principle came to be applied for the elections for seat 2 which had two candidates running for the seat, one of whom got higher votes than the other, with the total number of members casting votes in excess of those opting out.

You also referred to art 10.2 of the constitution but did not elaborate on the precedence that occurred that has become an integral part of our guidelines.  As precedence automatically becomes part of the election guidelines, it is important that we address issues which come up around the election with care and unambiguously.

Can you be so kind to clarify?

Best wishes
Omo

PS:  Grateful to listers to please keep this thread confined to the subject.



On 17 May 2018 at 17:17, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net<mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>> wrote:
Dear Members and Community,
Mt views have been sought on the matter under reference.
Please find same hereunder.

On 17/05/2018 14:04, B

The Election Process and last AGMM.

The appointment of Directors is carried out during an AGMM of the Company ?Art 13.1 of the constitution.

The election of the Directors is carried out in terms of Art 13.2 of the constitution which refers expressly to the election process approved by the Board.

Moreover  Art 10.2 of the Constitution refers to precedent applied during an AFRINIC election and which de facto become part of the election guidelines.

The election process  as it stands today is the one which was applied during  the elections held during the last AGMM without any opposition.

This is what it provides:

9.2 Paper Ballot on Election Day

The voting conducted during the Annual General Members' Meeting is carried out via paper ballots containing a list of candidate names and a ballot number. Prior to the vote, all members present or participants holding a proxy will be requested to register and validate their membership status.

        *   Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region. Each mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than one mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be counted.
        *   The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").
        *   This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any personal data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be counted as spoilt.
        *   Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners.
        *   In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for that position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until there is a winner.
        *   All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat

The last amendment of the election guidelines introduced the voting option ? None of the Above?. ?(Vide second bullet point above.)Those voters who have cast their votes for ? None of the Above? have done so in compliance with the prevailing  constitution  and these are thus valid votes. Every voter was aware of the new option.

The election guidelines are clear as to what happens when the ? None of the Above? option has a majority.- (Vide last bullet point above.)

The election guidelines must be read as a whole and all the provisions read together.

Legal Counsel ?AFRINIC

17.05.2018

oubakar Barry wrote:

Hello Board and Legal Counsel,

Good that Omo spotted this.

It?s a matter of applying the board election process adopted by the board according to section 13.2 of the bylaws.

https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process describes the process and section 9 spells out how to interpret the results in the case there are more than one candidate and in the case there is only one candidate. These two cases are addressed separately and differently.

It?s important to hear from the Board and the Legal Counsel, as the elections can be challenged.

Please advise.

Regards.

Boubakar

On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net<mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> wrote:
Greetings All,

I am looking at the BoD election process and it seems to me that the recent e-mail from the Board Chair seeking nominations for vacant seats should not be extended to Western Africa.

The particular clause I am referring to is in 9.2 - https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process

  *
Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners

I see from the list for West Africa that the candidate with the highest number of votes should have been declared winner and this is Dr Ousmane Tessa.  (btw, Dr Adewale Adedokun needs his name spelt correctly)


Western Africa - Seat 2

Dr Adelawe Abedekon - 43

Dr Ousmane Moussa Tessa - 56

None of the above - 78

Result: The seat is vacant


The results from the other regions are valid and supported by the following clause as they had one candidate.

     *   All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.

Can AfriNIC and the nomcom please clarify?   We should not deprive Dr Tessa of a rightful win ?. especially in the circumstances we find ourselves.

Omo

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From dndannang at gmail.com  Fri Jun  8 09:16:01 2018
From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 12:16:01 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR0602MB3603ED46AB5E0A109B734281B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
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 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
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 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
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 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAD4W+iOA6ea+tXOZKLsiazUa3YxxE_4s2=d5kCLyQ26VR+goVg@mail.gmail.com>

Why can't this issue be sorted in court?
Don't we have a legal counsel?

On Fri, Jun 8, 2018, 11:36 AM Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear CEO and Legal Counsel,
>
>
> I wrote asking for some clarification which should come from your offices.
> Up to now I have not received any response. I would be most grateful if you
> could spare some few minutes from your heavy schedule to do justice to my
> questions?
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Marcus
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 2, 2018 10:32:18 AM
> *To:* mje at posix.co.za; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss;
> Ornella GANKPA
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for
> Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>
> Hello,
>
> Thanks Ornella and others who has been actively participating in this
> discussion to help clear this issue once for good.
>
> Can someone explains to me why  ?none of the above?  votes were not
> counted for  2017 elections  as it  was done for election 2018 ?
>
> https
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>://
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>
> www.afrinic.net
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>
> /fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>
> - 2017
>
> https
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections>
> ://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections>
> - 2018
>
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 1, 2018 5:34:13 PM
> *To:* mje at posix.co.za; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for
> Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>
>
> Hi Mark
>
> My comments inline
>
> Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit :
>
>
>
> On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>
> Owen,
>
> 2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>:
>
> Arnaud,
>
> While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that there is
> some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY not have been a
> legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go changing the
> rules of the election and violating the expectations of the voters,
> membership, and community after the election has run.
>
>
> Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been made;
> let's fix it!>>
>
>
> And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The
> only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
>
> Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope
> of this discussion?  This is a matter of concern for the community at
> large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,  it is time to
> listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?
>
>
>
>
>
> Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above on the
> ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.
>
>
> No one is raising objection even now on  this option being on the ballot
> as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the correct
> implementation  of the guidelines as written.
>
>
>
> Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the above to
> change the result among the remaining two candidates, it is not legitimate
> to simply discard the none of the above votes and declare one of those
> candidates a winner. Indeed, I would argue that is the worst possible
> choice among all other options.
>
> The other options as I see it are:
>
> 1. Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board member
> until the
> next AGMM.
>
> 2. Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which case it
> should be
> considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from appointing
> anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.
>
>
> 3. Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for seat 2 and
> preclude
> the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to appoint
> seats 5
> and 6.
>
> As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the organization to
> proceed with a full board until the next AGMM where a hopefully more
> effective election can be accomplished.
>
> I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously
> short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the CEO. (The
> 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s
> vacancy, and the CEO).
>
> The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying treating the
> election of ?none of the above? differently in this circumstance than in
> the case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases, more voters felt
> that they didn?t want any of the options on the ballot and voted not to
> elect any fo the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless of
> the number of candidates and should be handled identically.
>
>
> Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on ballot
> and has not effect on the results
>
>
> What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None of
> the above" with "Abstain" ?
>
> The guidelines  say:
> "The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for
> any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
> It does not say to "reject all  the proposed candidate".
> It says to not vote  for any candidate and the guidelines states that ,
> the candidate with the highest votes wins.
> Let us stop  this harmful interpretation.
>
>
> and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the elections
> rules. In the current  situation,  the guidelines are clear  and explicit
>  on how we should  handle the results. So let follow it and engage on
> discussions  for amending the rules  if we see need to do so.
>
>
> I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its
> doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like
> *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none of
> the above". Why does this seem so hard to grasp?
>
> Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other
> document   which support your statement?  Some seems to refuse to read the
> guidelines  and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
> The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your
> statement.
>
> I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one natural
> person on the list but not fine when there is more than one natural person
> on the list.
>
> One explanation:
> When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . I
> need a way to count the "no" vote.
> a- change the ballot to  "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
> b- use  natural candidate and " none of the above"
> We were  using b)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hopefully additional clarity can be achieved prior to the next election
> and we won?t have to face this issue again. Personally, I like the idea of
> having ?none of the above? as an option in all cases.
>
>
> Clarity and fairness is the outcome of the complaint regarding seat 2 here
> imho; for the rest we can agree to disagree.
>
>
> I agree to agree with Owen.
>
>
>
>
> Owen
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> On May 29, 2018, at 14:56 , Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Ashok as a lawyer you know that there is the law and spirit of the
> law, please read bellow
>
> 2018-05-25 11:18 GMT+00:00 Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net>:
>
> Dear All,
> I apologize for having  missed your rejoinder to my mail.
>
>
> Despite the delays, we appreciate your response as the matter is of great
> concern.
>
>
> Your first question regards the reason as to why the same principle has
> been applied to the election for Seat 2
> notwithstanding the fact that there were two candidates.
> My response is that an election cannot be run on different principles. In
> this particular election the option "none of the above " was
> introduced for the first time and everyone was aware of this and it
> applied to all the elections held on that day. The Election guidelines were
> amended to acomodate this option.
>
>
> Yes indeed and the elections guidelines explicitely addressed the case of
> only a single candidate running for election and the option " none of the
> above" in this case got more votes than the sole candidate but is very
> silent in the case of multiple candidates running for elections with the
> option "none of the above" getting more votes.
>
> Anytime elections involve the option "none of the above", there are always
> clear rules on how the results are interpreted and the actions that must be
> taken when the option "none of the above" get more votes than the multiple
> candidates.
>
> It's not my intention to teach you something here, but it does look very
> bizarre that the legal counsel never bothered to help the board to make
>  the guidelines unambiguous  and conform to members expectations.
>
>
> Consequently this option has to be taken in consideration when finalising
> the results.
> Where there were two candidates. The options for voters were (1) yes for
> candidate (1)-((2) yes for candidate 2-(3) yes for non of the above.Each
> one is mutually exclusive.
> Each score to be counted separately. The majority for either option wins
> the day.
>
>
> Following  your reasoning above and the guidelines which say the candidate
> with the highest votes win, the members and community should then accept
> "none of the above" as the elected candidate and seated although "none of
> the above " did not go through Nomcom and was not listed on the candidates
> slates  published by Nomcom.
>
> Which means seat 2 should not be declared vacant to be filled by board.
>
> Filling  seat 2 by board would constitute the violation of "none  of the
> above" rights and of our rules and thus expose us to legal litigation.
>
>
>
> One should not create a fictitious majority by adding votes polled by (1)
> & (2) together. The real majority was to all intents and purposes the
> option which polled the most votes. There is no need to extrapolate or
> interpret.
>
>
> There is No fictitious majority being created. It was just an example of
> how this case could have been interpreted just like you do have your own
> interpretation.
>
> In many cases,  abstention is compared to voters in order to decide how to
> proceed with  validating an election and counting results..
>
>
>
> Where there was one candidate there were two options- Yes for the single
> candidate or yes for  "non of the above"
>
>
> The case of a sole candidate is clear as per the guidelines and there are
> no objections on seat 5 and 6 results.
>
>
> My reference to Art 10.2 was based on the decision of the members present
> at  past AGMMs to have the option of rejecting a single candidate or to
> give their approval to the single candidate, This has occurred more than
> once.
>
>
> And once again,  the case of a single candidate is handled as members
> agreed to and not debated
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
> Legal Counsel AFRINIC.
>
>
> On 24/05/2018 21:11, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>
> Dear CEO and Chairman
>
> It looks like the Legal counsel has not  responded to this query bellow
> regarding this very important issue about the recently concluded elections.
>
> Could you kindly remind him?
>
> Let us address this to a good conclusion in order to enforce the respect
> of our rules and processes.
>
> Regards
>
> Arnaud
>
> Le sam. 19 mai 2018 11:40, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> a ?crit :
>
> Dear Legal Counsel,
>
> Thanks for your input.  Much appreciated.
>
> Your statements reinforce the interpretation of section 9.2 of the
> guidelines with the origin of the "none of the above" option in the
> election process and how votes for this option are considered in the case
> of one candidate running for election for a seat. [Last bullet point]
>
> Case in which the election becomes a "yes" or "no"  vote for the only
> candidate.   This point is clear and accepted and the objection is not for
> the results for seat 5 and 6.
>
> What has not been clarified is how the same principle came to be applied
> for the elections for seat 2 which had two candidates running for the seat,
> one of whom got higher votes than the other, with the total number of
> members casting votes in excess of those opting out.
>
> You also referred to art 10.2 of the constitution but did not elaborate on
> the precedence that occurred that has become an integral part of
> our guidelines.  As precedence automatically becomes part of the election
> guidelines, it is important that we address issues which come up around the
> election with care and unambiguously.
>
> Can you be so kind to clarify?
>
> Best wishes
> Omo
>
> PS:  Grateful to listers to please keep this thread confined to the
> subject.
>
>
>
> On 17 May 2018 at 17:17, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net> wrote:
>
> Dear Members and Community,
> Mt views have been sought on the matter under reference.
> Please find same hereunder.
>
> On 17/05/2018 14:04, B
>
> *The Election Process and last AGMM.*
>
> The appointment of Directors is carried out during an AGMM of the Company
> ?Art 13.1 of the constitution.
>
> The election of the Directors is carried out in terms of Art 13.2 of the
> constitution which refers expressly to the election process approved by the
> Board.
>
> Moreover  Art 10.2 of the Constitution refers to precedent applied during
> an AFRINIC election and which de facto become part of the election
> guidelines.
>
> The election process  as it stands today is the one which was applied
> during  the elections held during the last AGMM without any opposition.
>
> This is what it provides:
>
> *9.2 Paper Ballot on Election Day*
>
> The voting conducted during the Annual General Members' Meeting is carried
> out via paper ballots containing a list of candidate names and a ballot
> number. Prior to the vote, all members present or participants holding a
> proxy will be requested to register and validate their membership status.
>
>    - Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region. Each
>          mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than one
>          mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be counted.
>          - The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not
>          vote for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").
>          - This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any
>          personal data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be
>          counted as spoilt.
>          - Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy
>          present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest
>          number of votes in each category will be declared winners.
>          - In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for that
>          position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until there
>          is a winner.
>          - All open positions shall be subject to an election process
>          even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of
>          the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be
>          considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply
>          provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat
>
> The last amendment of the election guidelines introduced the voting option
> ? None of the Above?. ?(Vide second bullet point above.)Those voters who
> have cast their votes for ? None of the Above? have done so in compliance
> with the prevailing  constitution  and these are thus valid votes. Every
> voter was aware of the new option.
>
> The election guidelines are clear as to what happens when the ? None of
> the Above? option has a majority.- (Vide last bullet point above.)
>
> The election guidelines must be read as a whole and all the provisions
> read together.
>
> Legal Counsel ?AFRINIC
>
> 17.05.2018
> oubakar Barry wrote:
>
> Hello Board and Legal Counsel,
>
> Good that Omo spotted this.
>
> It?s a matter of applying the board election process adopted by the board
> according to section 13.2 of the bylaws.
>
> https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process describes
> the process and section 9 spells out how to interpret the results in the
> case there are more than one candidate and in the case there is only one
> candidate. These two cases are addressed separately and differently.
>
> It?s important to hear from the Board and the Legal Counsel, as the
> elections can be challenged.
>
> Please advise.
>
> Regards.
>
> Boubakar
>
> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> wrote:
>
> Greetings All,
>
> I am looking at the BoD election process and it seems to me that the
> recent e-mail from the Board Chair seeking nominations for vacant seats
> should not be extended to Western Africa.
>
> The particular clause I am referring to is in 9.2 -
> https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process
>
>
>    -
>    Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present
>    in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number
>    of votes in each category will be declared winners
>
> I see from the list for West Africa that the candidate with the highest
> number of votes should have been declared winner and this is Dr Ousmane
> Tessa.  (btw, Dr Adewale Adedokun needs his name spelt correctly)
>
>
> *Western Africa - Seat 2*
>
> Dr Adelawe Abedekon - 43
>
> Dr Ousmane Moussa Tessa - 56
>
> None of the above - 78
>
> *Result: The seat is vacant*
>
>
> The results from the other regions are valid and supported by the
> following clause as they had one candidate.
>
>
>    - All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if
>       there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the
>       above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be
>       considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of
>       the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.
>
>
> Can AfriNIC and the nomcom please clarify?   We should not deprive Dr
> Tessa of a rightful win ?. especially in the circumstances we find
> ourselves.
>
> Omo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Members-Discuss mailing listMembers-Discuss at afrinic.nethttps://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From dabu.sifiso at yandex.com  Fri Jun  8 09:27:37 2018
From: dabu.sifiso at yandex.com (Dabu Sifiso)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2018 04:27:37 -0500
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
	Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR0602MB3603ED46AB5E0A109B734281B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>,
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>,
 <AM0PR0602MB3603D94F2DDB07C581775A2BB9610@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603ED46AB5E0A109B734281B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <460991528450057@web26o.yandex.ru>


"none of the above" was counted in 2017:
https://youtu.be/HSJCRrKoOgs


08.06.2018, 03:37, "Marcus K. G. Adomey" <madomey at hotmail.com>:
> Dear CEO and Legal Counsel,
>
> I wrote asking for some clarification which should come from your offices. Up to now I have not received any response. I would be most grateful if you could spare some few minutes from your heavy schedule to do justice to my questions?
>
> Thanks
>
> Marcus
>
> ----------------------------------------
> From: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 10:32:18 AM
> To: mje at posix.co.za; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss; Ornella GANKPA
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>
> Hello,
>
> Thanks Ornella and others who has been actively participating in this discussion to help clear this issue once for good.
>
> Can someone explains to me why? ?none of the above?? votes were not counted for? 2017 elections? as it? was done for election 2018 ?
>
> https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election? - 2017
>
> https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections - 2018
>
> Marcus
>
> ----------------------------------------
> From: Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 5:34:13 PM
> To: mje at posix.co.za; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>
> Hi Mark
>
> My comments inline
>
> Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit?:
>> On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>>> Owen,
>>>
>>> 2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>:
>>>> Arnaud,
>>>>
>>>> While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that there is some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY not have been a legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go changing the rules of the election and violating the expectations of the voters, membership, and community after the election has run.
>>>
>>> Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been made; let's fix it!>>
>>
>> And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
> Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope of this discussion?? This is a matter of concern for the community at large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,? it is time to listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?
>
>>>> Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above on the ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.
>>>
>>> No one is raising objection even now on ?this option being on the ballot as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the correct implementation ?of the guidelines as written.
>>>
>>>> Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the above to change the result among the remaining two candidates, it is not legitimate to simply discard the none of the above votes and declare one of those candidates a winner. Indeed, I would argue that is the worst possible choice among all other options.
>>>>
>>>> The other options as I see it are:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board member until the
>>>> next AGMM.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which case it should be
>>>> considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from appointing
>>>> anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.
>>>>
>>>> 3. Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for seat 2 and preclude
>>>> the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to appoint seats 5
>>>> and 6.
>>>>
>>>> As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the organization to proceed with a full board until the next AGMM where a hopefully more effective election can be accomplished.
>>>>
>>>> I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the CEO. (The 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s vacancy, and the CEO).
>>>>
>>>> The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying treating the election of ?none of the above? differently in this circumstance than in the case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases, more voters felt that they didn?t want any of the options on the ballot and voted not to elect any fo the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless of the number of candidates and should be handled identically.
>>>
>>> Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on ballot and has not effect on the results
>>
>> What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None of the above" with "Abstain" ?
> The guidelines? say:
> "The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
> It does not say to "reject all? the proposed candidate".
> It says to not vote? for any candidate and the guidelines states that , the candidate with the highest votes wins.
> Let us stop? this harmful interpretation.
>
>>> and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the elections rules. In the current ?situation, ?the guidelines are clear ?and explicit ?on how we should ?handle the results. So let follow it and engage on discussions ?for amending the rules ?if we see need to do so.
>>
>> I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none of the above". Why does this seem so hard to grasp?
> Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other document?? which support your statement?? Some seems to refuse to read the guidelines? and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
> The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your statement.
>
>> I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one natural person on the list but not fine when there is more than one natural person on the list.
> One explanation:
> When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . I need a way to count the "no" vote.
> a- change the ballot to? "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
> b- use? natural candidate and " none of the above"
> We were? using b)
>
>>>
>>
>>>> Hopefully additional clarity can be achieved prior to the next election and we won?t have to face this issue again. Personally, I like the idea of having ?none of the above? as an option in all cases.
>>>
>>> Clarity and fairness is the outcome of the complaint regarding seat 2 here imho; for the rest we can agree to disagree.
>>
>> I agree to agree with Owen.
>>
>>>> Owen
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>>> On May 29, 2018, at 14:56 , Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Ashok as a lawyer you know that there is the law and spirit of the law, please read bellow
>>>>>
>>>>> 2018-05-25 11:18 GMT+00:00 Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net>:
>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>> I apologize for having? missed your rejoinder to my mail.
>>>>>
>>>>> Despite the delays, we appreciate your response as the matter is of great concern.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Your first question regards the reason as to why the same principle has been applied to the election for Seat 2
>>>>>> notwithstanding the fact that there were two candidates.
>>>>>> My response is that an election cannot be run on different principles. In this particular election the option "none of the above " was
>>>>>> introduced for the first time and everyone was aware of this and it applied to all the elections held on that day. The Election guidelines were amended to acomodate this option.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes indeed and the elections guidelines explicitely addressed the case of only a single candidate running for election and the option " none of the above" in this case got more votes than the sole candidate but is very silent in the case of multiple candidates running for elections with the option "none of the above" getting more votes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anytime elections involve the option "none of the above", there are always clear rules on how the results are interpreted and the actions that must be taken when the option "none of the above" get more votes than the multiple candidates.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not my intention to teach you something here, but it does look very bizarre that the legal counsel never bothered to help the board to make ?the guidelines unambiguous ?and conform to members expectations.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Consequently this option has to be taken in consideration when finalising the results.
>>>>>> Where there were two candidates. The options for voters were (1) yes for candidate (1)-((2) yes for candidate 2-(3) yes for non of the above.Each one is mutually exclusive.
>>>>>> Each score to be counted separately. The majority for either option wins the day.
>>>>>
>>>>> Following ?your reasoning above and the guidelines which say the candidate with the highest votes win, the members and community should then accept "none of the above" as the elected candidate and seated although "none of the above " did not go through Nomcom and was not listed on the candidates slates ?published by Nomcom.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which means seat 2 should not be declared vacant to be filled by board.
>>>>>
>>>>> Filling ?seat 2 by board would constitute the violation of "none ?of the above" rights and of our rules and thus expose us to legal litigation.
>>>>>
>>>>>> One should not create a fictitious majority by adding votes polled by (1) & (2) together. The real majority was to all intents and purposes the option which polled the most votes. There is no need to extrapolate or interpret.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is No fictitious majority being created. It was just an example of how this case could have been interpreted just like you do have your own interpretation.
>>>>>
>>>>> In many cases, ?abstention is compared to voters in order to decide how to proceed with ?validating an election and counting results..
>>>>>
>>>>>> Where there was one candidate there were two options- Yes for the single candidate or yes for? "non of the above"
>>>>>
>>>>> The case of a sole candidate is clear as per the guidelines and there are no objections on seat 5 and 6 results.
>>>>>
>>>>>> My reference to Art 10.2 was based on the decision of the members present at? past AGMMs to have the option of rejecting a single candidate or to give their approval to the single candidate, This has occurred more than once.
>>>>>
>>>>> And once again, ?the case of a single candidate is handled as members agreed to and not debated
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you
>>>>>
>>>>>> Legal Counsel AFRINIC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 24/05/2018 21:11, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>>>>>>> Dear CEO and Chairman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It looks like the Legal counsel has not ?responded to this query bellow ? regarding this very important issue about the recently concluded elections.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could you kindly remind him?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let us address this to a good conclusion in order to enforce the respect of our rules and processes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arnaud
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Le sam. 19 mai 2018 11:40, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> a ?crit?:
>>>>>>>> Dear Legal Counsel,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for your input.? Much appreciated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your statements reinforce the interpretation of section 9.2 of the guidelines with the origin of the "none of the above" option in the election process and how votes for this option are considered in the case of one candidate running for election for a seat. [Last bullet point]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Case in which the election becomes a "yes" or "no"? vote for the only candidate.? ?This point?is clear and accepted and the objection is not for the results for seat 5 and 6.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What has not been clarified is how the same principle came to be applied for the elections for seat 2 which had two candidates running for the seat, one of whom got higher votes than the other, with the total number of members casting votes in excess of those opting out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You also?referred to art 10.2 of the constitution?but did not elaborate on the precedence that occurred that has become an integral?part of our?guidelines.? As precedence automatically becomes part of the election guidelines, it is important that we address issues which come up around the election with care and unambiguously.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can you be so kind to clarify?
>>>>>>>> Best wishes
>>>>>>>> Omo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PS:? Grateful to listers to please keep?this thread confined to the subject.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 17 May 2018 at 17:17, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Dear Members and Community,
>>>>>>>>> Mt views have been sought on the matter under reference.
>>>>>>>>> Please find same hereunder.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 17/05/2018 14:04, B
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Election Process and last AGMM.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The appointment of Directors is carried out during an AGMM of the Company ?Art 13.1 of the constitution.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The election of the Directors is carried out in terms of Art 13.2 of the constitution which refers expressly to the election process approved by the Board.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Moreover? Art 10.2 of the Constitution refers to precedent applied during an AFRINIC election and which de facto become part of the election guidelines.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The election process? as it stands today is the one which was applied during? the elections held during the last AGMM without any opposition.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is what it provides:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 9.2 Paper Ballot on Election Day
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The voting conducted during the Annual General Members' Meeting is carried out via paper ballots containing a list of candidate names and a ballot number. Prior to the vote, all members present or participants holding a proxy will be requested to register and validate their membership status.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region. Each mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than one mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be counted.
>>>>>>>>> * The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").
>>>>>>>>> * This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any personal data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be counted as spoilt.
>>>>>>>>> * Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners.
>>>>>>>>> * In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for that position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until there is a winner.
>>>>>>>>> * All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The last amendment of the election guidelines introduced the voting option ? None of the Above?. ?(Vide second bullet point above.)Those voters who have cast their votes for ? None of the Above? have done so in compliance with the prevailing? constitution ?and these are thus valid votes. Every voter was aware of the new option.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The election guidelines are clear as to what happens when the ? None of the Above? option has a majority.- (Vide last bullet point above.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The election guidelines must be read as a whole and all the provisions read together.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Legal Counsel ?AFRINIC
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 17.05.2018
>>>>>>>>> oubakar Barry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hello Board and Legal Counsel,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good that Omo spotted this.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It?s a matter of applying the board election process adopted by the board according to section 13.2 of the bylaws.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process describes the process and section 9 spells out how to interpret the results in the case there are more than one candidate and in the case there is only one candidate. These two cases are addressed separately and differently.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It?s important to hear from the Board and the Legal Counsel, as the elections can be challenged.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Please advise.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Boubakar
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Greetings All,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am looking at the BoD election process and it seems to me that the recent e-mail from the Board Chair seeking nominations for vacant seats should not be extended to Western Africa.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The particular clause I am referring to is in 9.2 -?https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process
>>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>>> Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners
>>>>>>>>>>> I see from the list for West Africa that the candidate with the highest number of votes should have been declared winner and this is Dr Ousmane Tessa. ?(btw, Dr Adewale Adedokun needs his name spelt correctly)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Western Africa - Seat 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dr Adelawe Abedekon - 43
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dr Ousmane Moussa Tessa - 56
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> None of the above - 78
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Result: The seat is vacant
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The results from the other regions are valid and supported by the following clause as they had one candidate.
>>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> * All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.
>>>>>>>>>>> Can AfriNIC and the nomcom please clarify? ? We should not deprive Dr Tessa of a rightful win ?. especially in the circumstances we find ourselves.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Omo
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ Members-Discuss mailing list Members-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>>>>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>> -- Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>>
>> _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> ,
>
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Fri Jun  8 09:30:05 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 09:30:05 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <CAD4W+iOA6ea+tXOZKLsiazUa3YxxE_4s2=d5kCLyQ26VR+goVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603D94F2DDB07C581775A2BB9610@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603ED46AB5E0A109B734281B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAD4W+iOA6ea+tXOZKLsiazUa3YxxE_4s2=d5kCLyQ26VR+goVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB257090A8015E428F03F7C861EE7B0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

The answer to that is simple,

For something to be sorted in a court of law ? someone has to take it to court.

Since the people who members of this community claim were disenfranchised by the vote have not taken it to court ? and since there are many ? who include the AFRINIC legal council based on his previous statements, who believe that the correct actions were taken ? how is it going to be sorted in a court?

If someone wishes to approach the Mauritian courts to adjudicate this ? let them do so ? but that requires someone willing to spend the money and resources to do that ? and right now ? I see a lot of people whining ? but I don?t see anyone willing to dedicate the resources to doing that ? and for AFRINIC to approach the court ? when they have already stated clearly how they view the situation ? would be equivalent to litigating against themselves.  I hardly see that happening

Andrew


From: DANIEL NANGHAKA [mailto:dndannang at gmail.com]
Sent: 08 June 2018 12:16
To: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections

Why can't this issue be sorted in court?
Don't we have a legal counsel?

On Fri, Jun 8, 2018, 11:36 AM Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com<mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>> wrote:
Dear CEO and Legal Counsel,


I wrote asking for some clarification which should come from your offices. Up to now I have not received any response. I would be most grateful if you could spare some few minutes from your heavy schedule to do justice to my questions?


Thanks


Marcus

________________________________
From: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com<mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 10:32:18 AM
To: mje at posix.co.za<mailto:mje at posix.co.za>; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss; Ornella GANKPA
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections

Hello,
Thanks Ornella and others who has been actively participating in this discussion to help clear this issue once for good.
Can someone explains to me why  ?none of the above?  votes were not counted for  2017 elections  as it  was done for election 2018 ?
https<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>://<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>www.afrinic.net<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>  - 2017
https<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections>://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections> - 2018



Marcus


________________________________
From: Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com<mailto:honest1989 at gmail.com>>
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 5:34:13 PM
To: mje at posix.co.za<mailto:mje at posix.co.za>; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections


Hi Mark

My comments inline

Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit :



On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
Owen,

2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com<mailto:owen at delong.com>>:
Arnaud,

While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that there is some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY not have been a legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go changing the rules of the election and violating the expectations of the voters, membership, and community after the election has run.

Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been made; let's fix it!>>

And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope of this discussion?  This is a matter of concern for the community at large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,  it is time to listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?






Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above on the ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.

No one is raising objection even now on  this option being on the ballot as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the correct implementation  of the guidelines as written.


Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the above to change the result among the remaining two candidates, it is not legitimate to simply discard the none of the above votes and declare one of those candidates a winner. Indeed, I would argue that is the worst possible choice among all other options.

The other options as I see it are:

1. Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board member until the
next AGMM.

2. Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which case it should be
considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from appointing
anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.


3. Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for seat 2 and preclude
the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to appoint seats 5
and 6.

As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the organization to proceed with a full board until the next AGMM where a hopefully more effective election can be accomplished.

I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the CEO. (The 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s vacancy, and the CEO).

The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying treating the election of ?none of the above? differently in this circumstance than in the case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases, more voters felt that they didn?t want any of the options on the ballot and voted not to elect any fo the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless of the number of candidates and should be handled identically.

Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on ballot and has not effect on the results

What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None of the above" with "Abstain" ?
The guidelines  say:
"The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
It does not say to "reject all  the proposed candidate".
It says to not vote  for any candidate and the guidelines states that , the candidate with the highest votes wins.
Let us stop  this harmful interpretation.




and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the elections rules. In the current  situation,  the guidelines are clear  and explicit  on how we should  handle the results. So let follow it and engage on discussions  for amending the rules  if we see need to do so.

I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none of the above". Why does this seem so hard to grasp?
Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other document   which support your statement?  Some seems to refuse to read the guidelines  and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your statement.


I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one natural person on the list but not fine when there is more than one natural person on the list.
One explanation:
When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . I need a way to count the "no" vote.
a- change the ballot to  "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
b- use  natural candidate and " none of the above"
We were  using b)








Hopefully additional clarity can be achieved prior to the next election and we won?t have to face this issue again. Personally, I like the idea of having ?none of the above? as an option in all cases.

Clarity and fairness is the outcome of the complaint regarding seat 2 here imho; for the rest we can agree to disagree.

I agree to agree with Owen.




Owen

Thanks


On May 29, 2018, at 14:56 , Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com<mailto:amelnaud at gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Ashok as a lawyer you know that there is the law and spirit of the law, please read bellow

2018-05-25 11:18 GMT+00:00 Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net<mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>>:
Dear All,
I apologize for having  missed your rejoinder to my mail.

Despite the delays, we appreciate your response as the matter is of great concern.

Your first question regards the reason as to why the same principle has been applied to the election for Seat 2
notwithstanding the fact that there were two candidates.
My response is that an election cannot be run on different principles. In this particular election the option "none of the above " was
introduced for the first time and everyone was aware of this and it applied to all the elections held on that day. The Election guidelines were amended to acomodate this option.

Yes indeed and the elections guidelines explicitely addressed the case of only a single candidate running for election and the option " none of the above" in this case got more votes than the sole candidate but is very silent in the case of multiple candidates running for elections with the option "none of the above" getting more votes.

Anytime elections involve the option "none of the above", there are always clear rules on how the results are interpreted and the actions that must be taken when the option "none of the above" get more votes than the multiple candidates.

It's not my intention to teach you something here, but it does look very bizarre that the legal counsel never bothered to help the board to make  the guidelines unambiguous  and conform to members expectations.

Consequently this option has to be taken in consideration when finalising the results.
Where there were two candidates. The options for voters were (1) yes for candidate (1)-((2) yes for candidate 2-(3) yes for non of the above.Each one is mutually exclusive.
Each score to be counted separately. The majority for either option wins the day.

Following  your reasoning above and the guidelines which say the candidate with the highest votes win, the members and community should then accept "none of the above" as the elected candidate and seated although "none of the above " did not go through Nomcom and was not listed on the candidates slates  published by Nomcom.

Which means seat 2 should not be declared vacant to be filled by board.

Filling  seat 2 by board would constitute the violation of "none  of the above" rights and of our rules and thus expose us to legal litigation.


One should not create a fictitious majority by adding votes polled by (1) & (2) together. The real majority was to all intents and purposes the option which polled the most votes. There is no need to extrapolate or interpret.

There is No fictitious majority being created. It was just an example of how this case could have been interpreted just like you do have your own interpretation.

In many cases,  abstention is compared to voters in order to decide how to proceed with  validating an election and counting results..


Where there was one candidate there were two options- Yes for the single candidate or yes for  "non of the above"

The case of a sole candidate is clear as per the guidelines and there are no objections on seat 5 and 6 results.

My reference to Art 10.2 was based on the decision of the members present at  past AGMMs to have the option of rejecting a single candidate or to give their approval to the single candidate, This has occurred more than once.

And once again,  the case of a single candidate is handled as members agreed to and not debated

Thank you


Legal Counsel AFRINIC.

On 24/05/2018 21:11, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
Dear CEO and Chairman

It looks like the Legal counsel has not  responded to this query bellow   regarding this very important issue about the recently concluded elections.

Could you kindly remind him?

Let us address this to a good conclusion in order to enforce the respect of our rules and processes.

Regards

Arnaud
Le sam. 19 mai 2018 11:40, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net<mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> a ?crit :
Dear Legal Counsel,

Thanks for your input.  Much appreciated.

Your statements reinforce the interpretation of section 9.2 of the guidelines with the origin of the "none of the above" option in the election process and how votes for this option are considered in the case of one candidate running for election for a seat. [Last bullet point]

Case in which the election becomes a "yes" or "no"  vote for the only candidate.   This point is clear and accepted and the objection is not for the results for seat 5 and 6.

What has not been clarified is how the same principle came to be applied for the elections for seat 2 which had two candidates running for the seat, one of whom got higher votes than the other, with the total number of members casting votes in excess of those opting out.

You also referred to art 10.2 of the constitution but did not elaborate on the precedence that occurred that has become an integral part of our guidelines.  As precedence automatically becomes part of the election guidelines, it is important that we address issues which come up around the election with care and unambiguously.

Can you be so kind to clarify?

Best wishes
Omo

PS:  Grateful to listers to please keep this thread confined to the subject.



On 17 May 2018 at 17:17, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net<mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>> wrote:
Dear Members and Community,
Mt views have been sought on the matter under reference.
Please find same hereunder.
On 17/05/2018 14:04, B

The Election Process and last AGMM.

The appointment of Directors is carried out during an AGMM of the Company ?Art 13.1 of the constitution.

The election of the Directors is carried out in terms of Art 13.2 of the constitution which refers expressly to the election process approved by the Board.

Moreover  Art 10.2 of the Constitution refers to precedent applied during an AFRINIC election and which de facto become part of the election guidelines.

The election process  as it stands today is the one which was applied during  the elections held during the last AGMM without any opposition.

This is what it provides:

9.2 Paper Ballot on Election Day

The voting conducted during the Annual General Members' Meeting is carried out via paper ballots containing a list of candidate names and a ballot number. Prior to the vote, all members present or participants holding a proxy will be requested to register and validate their membership status.

        *   Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region. Each mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than one mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be counted.
        *   The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").
        *   This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any personal data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be counted as spoilt.
        *   Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners.
        *   In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for that position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until there is a winner.
        *   All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat

The last amendment of the election guidelines introduced the voting option ? None of the Above?. ?(Vide second bullet point above.)Those voters who have cast their votes for ? None of the Above? have done so in compliance with the prevailing  constitution  and these are thus valid votes. Every voter was aware of the new option.

The election guidelines are clear as to what happens when the ? None of the Above? option has a majority.- (Vide last bullet point above.)

The election guidelines must be read as a whole and all the provisions read together.

Legal Counsel ?AFRINIC

17.05.2018
oubakar Barry wrote:

Hello Board and Legal Counsel,

Good that Omo spotted this.

It?s a matter of applying the board election process adopted by the board according to section 13.2 of the bylaws.

https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process<https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process> describes the process and section 9 spells out how to interpret the results in the case there are more than one candidate and in the case there is only one candidate. These two cases are addressed separately and differently.

It?s important to hear from the Board and the Legal Counsel, as the elections can be challenged.

Please advise.

Regards.

Boubakar

On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net<mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> wrote:
Greetings All,

I am looking at the BoD election process and it seems to me that the recent e-mail from the Board Chair seeking nominations for vacant seats should not be extended to Western Africa.

The particular clause I am referring to is in 9.2 - https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process<https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process>

  *
Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners
I see from the list for West Africa that the candidate with the highest number of votes should have been declared winner and this is Dr Ousmane Tessa.  (btw, Dr Adewale Adedokun needs his name spelt correctly)


Western Africa - Seat 2

Dr Adelawe Abedekon - 43

Dr Ousmane Moussa Tessa - 56

None of the above - 78

Result: The seat is vacant


The results from the other regions are valid and supported by the following clause as they had one candidate.

     *   All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.

Can AfriNIC and the nomcom please clarify?   We should not deprive Dr Tessa of a rightful win ?. especially in the circumstances we find ourselves.

Omo

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From dndannang at gmail.com  Fri Jun  8 09:35:08 2018
From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 12:35:08 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB257090A8015E428F03F7C861EE7B0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603D94F2DDB07C581775A2BB9610@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603ED46AB5E0A109B734281B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAD4W+iOA6ea+tXOZKLsiazUa3YxxE_4s2=d5kCLyQ26VR+goVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB257090A8015E428F03F7C861EE7B0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAD4W+iNRi9Lae1RMRW6+Cn6dhet4PmygfhAwaLWF7te2BLpodA@mail.gmail.com>

What do you advice Andrew?

Currently there are issues that weren't finalised.
And also note how board has since gone quite on issue of work place
harrasment and IC report.

We don't have update on new board members?

These are things that need to be sorted.



On Fri, Jun 8, 2018, 12:30 PM Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
wrote:

> The answer to that is simple,
>
>
>
> For something to be sorted in a court of law ? someone has to take it to
> court.
>
>
>
> Since the people who members of this community claim were disenfranchised
> by the vote have not taken it to court ? and since there are many ? who
> include the AFRINIC legal council based on his previous statements, who
> believe that the correct actions were taken ? how is it going to be sorted
> in a court?
>
>
>
> If someone wishes to approach the Mauritian courts to adjudicate this ?
> let them do so ? but that requires someone willing to spend the money and
> resources to do that ? and right now ? I see a lot of people whining ? but
> I don?t see anyone willing to dedicate the resources to doing that ? and
> for AFRINIC to approach the court ? when they have already stated clearly
> how they view the situation ? would be equivalent to litigating against
> themselves.  I hardly see that happening
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* DANIEL NANGHAKA [mailto:dndannang at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 08 June 2018 12:16
> *To:* Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
> *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>;
> AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for
> Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>
>
>
> Why can't this issue be sorted in court?
>
> Don't we have a legal counsel?
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 8, 2018, 11:36 AM Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear CEO and Legal Counsel,
>
>
>
>
>
> I wrote asking for some clarification which should come from your offices.
> Up to now I have not received any response. I would be most grateful if you
> could spare some few minutes from your heavy schedule to do justice to my
> questions?
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 2, 2018 10:32:18 AM
> *To:* mje at posix.co.za; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss;
> Ornella GANKPA
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for
> Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Thanks Ornella and others who has been actively participating in this
> discussion to help clear this issue once for good.
>
> Can someone explains to me why  ?none of the above?  votes were not
> counted for  2017 elections  as it  was done for election 2018 ?
>
> https
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>://
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>
> www.afrinic.net
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>
> /fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>
> - 2017
>
> https
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections>
> ://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections
> <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections>
> - 2018
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, June 1, 2018 5:34:13 PM
> *To:* mje at posix.co.za; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for
> Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>
>
>
> Hi Mark
>
> My comments inline
>
>
>
> Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit :
>
>
>
>
>
> On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>
> Owen,
>
>
>
> 2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>:
>
> Arnaud,
>
>
>
> While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that there is
> some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY not have been a
> legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go changing the
> rules of the election and violating the expectations of the voters,
> membership, and community after the election has run.
>
>
>
> Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been made;
> let's fix it!>>
>
>
> And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The
> only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
>
> Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope
> of this discussion?  This is a matter of concern for the community at
> large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,  it is time to
> listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above on the
> ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.
>
>
>
> No one is raising objection even now on  this option being on the ballot
> as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the correct
> implementation  of the guidelines as written.
>
>
>
>
>
> Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the above to
> change the result among the remaining two candidates, it is not legitimate
> to simply discard the none of the above votes and declare one of those
> candidates a winner. Indeed, I would argue that is the worst possible
> choice among all other options.
>
>
>
> The other options as I see it are:
>
>
>
> 1. Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board member
> until the
>
> next AGMM.
>
>
>
> 2. Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which case it
> should be
>
> considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from appointing
>
> anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.
>
>
>
>
>
> 3. Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for seat 2 and
> preclude
>
> the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to appoint
> seats 5
>
> and 6.
>
>
>
> As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the organization to
> proceed with a full board until the next AGMM where a hopefully more
> effective election can be accomplished.
>
>
>
> I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously
> short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the CEO. (The
> 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s
> vacancy, and the CEO).
>
>
>
> The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying treating the
> election of ?none of the above? differently in this circumstance than in
> the case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases, more voters felt
> that they didn?t want any of the options on the ballot and voted not to
> elect any fo the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless of
> the number of candidates and should be handled identically.
>
>
>
> Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on ballot
> and has not effect on the results
>
>
> What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None of
> the above" with "Abstain" ?
>
> The guidelines  say:
> "The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for
> any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
> It does not say to "reject all  the proposed candidate".
> It says to not vote  for any candidate and the guidelines states that ,
> the candidate with the highest votes wins.
> Let us stop  this harmful interpretation.
>
>
>
>
> and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the elections
> rules. In the current  situation,  the guidelines are clear  and explicit
>  on how we should  handle the results. So let follow it and engage on
> discussions  for amending the rules  if we see need to do so.
>
>
> I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its
> doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like
> *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none of
> the above". Why does this seem so hard to grasp?
>
> Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other
> document   which support your statement?  Some seems to refuse to read the
> guidelines  and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
> The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your
> statement.
>
>
> I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one natural
> person on the list but not fine when there is more than one natural person
> on the list.
>
> One explanation:
> When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . I
> need a way to count the "no" vote.
> a- change the ballot to  "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
> b- use  natural candidate and " none of the above"
> We were  using b)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hopefully additional clarity can be achieved prior to the next election
> and we won?t have to face this issue again. Personally, I like the idea of
> having ?none of the above? as an option in all cases.
>
>
>
> Clarity and fairness is the outcome of the complaint regarding seat 2 here
> imho; for the rest we can agree to disagree.
>
>
> I agree to agree with Owen.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Owen
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 29, 2018, at 14:56 , Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Ashok as a lawyer you know that there is the law and spirit of the
> law, please read bellow
>
>
>
> 2018-05-25 11:18 GMT+00:00 Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net>:
>
> Dear All,
> I apologize for having  missed your rejoinder to my mail.
>
>
>
> Despite the delays, we appreciate your response as the matter is of great
> concern.
>
>
>
> Your first question regards the reason as to why the same principle has
> been applied to the election for Seat 2
> notwithstanding the fact that there were two candidates.
> My response is that an election cannot be run on different principles. In
> this particular election the option "none of the above " was
> introduced for the first time and everyone was aware of this and it
> applied to all the elections held on that day. The Election guidelines were
> amended to acomodate this option.
>
>
>
> Yes indeed and the elections guidelines explicitely addressed the case of
> only a single candidate running for election and the option " none of the
> above" in this case got more votes than the sole candidate but is very
> silent in the case of multiple candidates running for elections with the
> option "none of the above" getting more votes.
>
>
>
> Anytime elections involve the option "none of the above", there are always
> clear rules on how the results are interpreted and the actions that must be
> taken when the option "none of the above" get more votes than the multiple
> candidates.
>
>
>
> It's not my intention to teach you something here, but it does look very
> bizarre that the legal counsel never bothered to help the board to make
>  the guidelines unambiguous  and conform to members expectations.
>
>
>
> Consequently this option has to be taken in consideration when finalising
> the results.
> Where there were two candidates. The options for voters were (1) yes for
> candidate (1)-((2) yes for candidate 2-(3) yes for non of the above.Each
> one is mutually exclusive.
> Each score to be counted separately. The majority for either option wins
> the day.
>
>
>
> Following  your reasoning above and the guidelines which say the candidate
> with the highest votes win, the members and community should then accept
> "none of the above" as the elected candidate and seated although "none of
> the above " did not go through Nomcom and was not listed on the candidates
> slates  published by Nomcom.
>
>
>
> Which means seat 2 should not be declared vacant to be filled by board.
>
>
>
> Filling  seat 2 by board would constitute the violation of "none  of the
> above" rights and of our rules and thus expose us to legal litigation.
>
>
>
>
>
> One should not create a fictitious majority by adding votes polled by (1)
> & (2) together. The real majority was to all intents and purposes the
> option which polled the most votes. There is no need to extrapolate or
> interpret.
>
>
>
> There is No fictitious majority being created. It was just an example of
> how this case could have been interpreted just like you do have your own
> interpretation.
>
>
>
> In many cases,  abstention is compared to voters in order to decide how to
> proceed with  validating an election and counting results..
>
>
>
>
>
> Where there was one candidate there were two options- Yes for the single
> candidate or yes for  "non of the above"
>
>
>
> The case of a sole candidate is clear as per the guidelines and there are
> no objections on seat 5 and 6 results.
>
>
>
> My reference to Art 10.2 was based on the decision of the members present
> at  past AGMMs to have the option of rejecting a single candidate or to
> give their approval to the single candidate, This has occurred more than
> once.
>
>
>
> And once again,  the case of a single candidate is handled as members
> agreed to and not debated
>
>
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
>
>
> Legal Counsel AFRINIC.
>
>
>
> On 24/05/2018 21:11, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>
> Dear CEO and Chairman
>
>
>
> It looks like the Legal counsel has not  responded to this query bellow
> regarding this very important issue about the recently concluded elections.
>
>
>
> Could you kindly remind him?
>
>
>
> Let us address this to a good conclusion in order to enforce the respect
> of our rules and processes.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Arnaud
>
> Le sam. 19 mai 2018 11:40, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> a ?crit :
>
> Dear Legal Counsel,
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input.  Much appreciated.
>
>
>
> Your statements reinforce the interpretation of section 9.2 of the
> guidelines with the origin of the "none of the above" option in the
> election process and how votes for this option are considered in the case
> of one candidate running for election for a seat. [Last bullet point]
>
>
>
> Case in which the election becomes a "yes" or "no"  vote for the only
> candidate.   This point is clear and accepted and the objection is not for
> the results for seat 5 and 6.
>
>
>
> What has not been clarified is how the same principle came to be applied
> for the elections for seat 2 which had two candidates running for the seat,
> one of whom got higher votes than the other, with the total number of
> members casting votes in excess of those opting out.
>
>
>
> You also referred to art 10.2 of the constitution but did not elaborate on
> the precedence that occurred that has become an integral part of
> our guidelines.  As precedence automatically becomes part of the election
> guidelines, it is important that we address issues which come up around the
> election with care and unambiguously.
>
>
>
> Can you be so kind to clarify?
>
>
>
> Best wishes
>
> Omo
>
>
>
> PS:  Grateful to listers to please keep this thread confined to the
> subject.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 17 May 2018 at 17:17, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net> wrote:
>
> Dear Members and Community,
> Mt views have been sought on the matter under reference.
> Please find same hereunder.
>
> On 17/05/2018 14:04, B
>
> *The Election Process and last AGMM.*
>
> The appointment of Directors is carried out during an AGMM of the Company
> ?Art 13.1 of the constitution.
>
> The election of the Directors is carried out in terms of Art 13.2 of the
> constitution which refers expressly to the election process approved by the
> Board.
>
> Moreover  Art 10.2 of the Constitution refers to precedent applied during
> an AFRINIC election and which de facto become part of the election
> guidelines.
>
> The election process  as it stands today is the one which was applied
> during  the elections held during the last AGMM without any opposition.
>
> This is what it provides:
>
> *9.2 Paper Ballot on Election Day*
>
> The voting conducted during the Annual General Members' Meeting is carried
> out via paper ballots containing a list of candidate names and a ballot
> number. Prior to the vote, all members present or participants holding a
> proxy will be requested to register and validate their membership status.
>
>    - Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region. Each
>          mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than one
>          mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be counted.
>          - The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not
>          vote for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").
>          - This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any
>          personal data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be
>          counted as spoilt.
>          - Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy
>          present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest
>          number of votes in each category will be declared winners.
>          - In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for that
>          position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until there
>          is a winner.
>          - All open positions shall be subject to an election process
>          even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of
>          the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be
>          considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of
>          the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat
>
> The last amendment of the election guidelines introduced the voting option
> ? None of the Above?. ?(Vide second bullet point above.)Those voters who
> have cast their votes for ? None of the Above? have done so in compliance
> with the prevailing  constitution  and these are thus valid votes. Every
> voter was aware of the new option.
>
> The election guidelines are clear as to what happens when the ? None of
> the Above? option has a majority.- (Vide last bullet point above.)
>
> The election guidelines must be read as a whole and all the provisions
> read together.
>
> Legal Counsel ?AFRINIC
>
> 17.05.2018
>
> oubakar Barry wrote:
>
> Hello Board and Legal Counsel,
>
> Good that Omo spotted this.
>
> It?s a matter of applying the board election process adopted by the board
> according to section 13.2 of the bylaws.
>
> https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process describes
> the process and section 9 spells out how to interpret the results in the
> case there are more than one candidate and in the case there is only one
> candidate. These two cases are addressed separately and differently.
>
> It?s important to hear from the Board and the Legal Counsel, as the
> elections can be challenged.
>
> Please advise.
>
> Regards.
>
> Boubakar
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> wrote:
>
> Greetings All,
>
>
>
> I am looking at the BoD election process and it seems to me that the
> recent e-mail from the Board Chair seeking nominations for vacant seats
> should not be extended to Western Africa.
>
>
>
> The particular clause I am referring to is in 9.2 -
> https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process
>
>
>    -
>    Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present
>    in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number
>    of votes in each category will be declared winners
>
> I see from the list for West Africa that the candidate with the highest
> number of votes should have been declared winner and this is Dr Ousmane
> Tessa.  (btw, Dr Adewale Adedokun needs his name spelt correctly)
>
>
>
>
> *Western Africa - Seat 2*
>
> Dr Adelawe Abedekon - 43
>
> Dr Ousmane Moussa Tessa - 56
>
> None of the above - 78
>
> *Result: The seat is vacant*
>
>
>
>
>
> The results from the other regions are valid and supported by the
> following clause as they had one candidate.
>
>
>    - All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if
>       there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the
>       above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be
>       considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of
>       the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.
>
>
>
> Can AfriNIC and the nomcom please clarify?   We should not deprive Dr
> Tessa of a rightful win ?. especially in the circumstances we find
> ourselves.
>
>
>
> Omo
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Members-Discuss mailing list
>
> Members-Discuss at afrinic.net
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Community-Discuss mailing list
>
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
>
> mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
>
> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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>
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>
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Fri Jun  8 10:00:40 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 10:00:40 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <CAD4W+iNRi9Lae1RMRW6+Cn6dhet4PmygfhAwaLWF7te2BLpodA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
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Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB257040AFC4BC42054E8969FBEE7B0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

It?s really simple ? The AFRINIC bylaws allow for limited recourse ? again and I state this clearly ? members in AfriNIC because of the way it is structured hold surprisingly little sway in the organisation.  Please keep in mind ? the board effectively ?owns? the company ? it was this community that chose to reject the bylaws amendments that would have resolved the governance issues and put far more power in their hands ? a decision by this community that I have never understood and never will ? but a decision that this community must now live with.

The current status quo as I read it is as follows (and I am no lawyer, but, I have studied the bylaws into infinitum and also studied the companies act with incredible care before drawing the conclusions that I come to here):

The board can appoint new board members ? to fill casual vacancies ? that is permissible under both the  companies act and the bylaws. There are no limitations as to who they can appoint ? or any criterion used in those appointments ? other than the fact that the person has to qualify under Mauritian law to hold a directorship (and those criteria are listed in section 13.10 of the bylaws)

The board is quorate to hold board meetings ? with or without these appointments.

The board is not quorate to hold another AGMM ? and the appointment of directors will not solve this.  Additionally ? even if they were to bring in the West African seat ? the quorum problem would not be resolved ? the bylaws in section 12.10 are explicit that for an AGMM to be quorate ? it requires 4 directors elected to represent a region, 1 director elected on a non-regional criteria and 5 resource members.  Currently ? we have two non-regional seats occupied (Seun and Serge), 2 regional (SM and Christiaan Bope), and one Ex-Officio.  If the western seat was granted ? though I personally believe that would be entirely illegitimate, you still do not meet the required quorum for elected directors.   Please keep in mind that appointees to the board are not elected.

The board also cannot hold another election to solve this problem ? section 13.4 of the bylaws is explicit that directors must be appointed by an *annual* general members meeting ? which is defined in the definition section ? and as discussed above ? there is no quorum for an annual general members meeting.  There is no provision for election of directors at a special general meeting (for which it could be argued there is quorum.) This is also reinforced by section 7.2(i) of the bylaws.

That leaves two options:


  1.  AfriNIC approaches the courts to get the courts to waive the bylaws and allow for a special general members meeting to elect directors to get the quorum for an AGMM.
  2.  At the next SGMM ? the board convinces this community to pass a special resolution to amend the bylaws to allow for election of directors outside of the AGMM ? and then convenes another SGMM to elect directors.  Considering that by law a special general members meeting requires specific notice periods ? the members meeting to amend the bylaws would have to be held separately from the SGMM to elect the directors ? with a minimum of a two week gap I believe (I would need to double check the exact time frames), since they cannot put the election of directors onto the agenda until such time as the election of directors is actually permitted.

Should AfriNIC attempt to use point (a) ? they are required to inform the community before they do this ? Section 3(vii) states that it is a fundamental objective of the board to disseminate to its members information on ALL matters affecting the company and its members.  At this point ? I would argue that a failure to disclose an action related to point (a) would be in violation of the bylaws and quite probably would result in contestation ? and should (a) be attempted before (b) is ? it would be a slap in the face to this community and a request to adjudicate on an issue that is in the members hands before the members had a chance to actually act on it ? and were members to be aware of (a) before it happened ? again ? I believe there would be contestation.

That is the current status quo ? What I believe needs to happen is that an SGMM needs to be called ? the bylaws amended ? and a further SGMM needs to be called to elect directors.  If the board fails to pass the bylaw amendment required ? then and only then does option (a) open itself up ? and should option (a) fail ? then AFRINIC itself is in a various precarious position ? because by law the company is required to hold an AGMM within 6 months of the date of financial closure ? effectively meaning ? AFRINIC has a clock ticking on it ? because as of June next year ? they will be unable to fulfil the requirements of the companies act.

I would also argue that point (b) is an opportunity ? because there are MANY issues that need fixing in the bylaws ? and I would argue that to pass the amendment required ? the membership is almost certainly going to demand that other changes aside from just the amendment that makes it possible to elect more directors are passed in the same resolution.  Keeping in mind ? it requires a super majority vote of 75% of the members to modify the bylaws.

I would also say that the divides in this community that we see ? with the constant attacks and bitterness ? specifically framed on linguistic and geopolitical base ? are going to need to come to an end.  If we as a community do not bind together ? the 75% majority will never be reached ? and if we vote based not on the good of the company ? but rather based on who is carrying the message and where they come from, the language they speak, or the fact that we just don?t plain like someone, then we will have only ourselves to blame when we doom AfriNIC.

Andrew


From: DANIEL NANGHAKA [mailto:dndannang at gmail.com]
Sent: 08 June 2018 12:35
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>; General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections

What do you advice Andrew?

Currently there are issues that weren't finalised.
And also note how board has since gone quite on issue of work place harrasment and IC report.

We don't have update on new board members?

These are things that need to be sorted.



On Fri, Jun 8, 2018, 12:30 PM Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
The answer to that is simple,

For something to be sorted in a court of law ? someone has to take it to court.

Since the people who members of this community claim were disenfranchised by the vote have not taken it to court ? and since there are many ? who include the AFRINIC legal council based on his previous statements, who believe that the correct actions were taken ? how is it going to be sorted in a court?

If someone wishes to approach the Mauritian courts to adjudicate this ? let them do so ? but that requires someone willing to spend the money and resources to do that ? and right now ? I see a lot of people whining ? but I don?t see anyone willing to dedicate the resources to doing that ? and for AFRINIC to approach the court ? when they have already stated clearly how they view the situation ? would be equivalent to litigating against themselves.  I hardly see that happening

Andrew


From: DANIEL NANGHAKA [mailto:dndannang at gmail.com<mailto:dndannang at gmail.com>]
Sent: 08 June 2018 12:16
To: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com<mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>; AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:members-discuss at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections

Why can't this issue be sorted in court?
Don't we have a legal counsel?

On Fri, Jun 8, 2018, 11:36 AM Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com<mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>> wrote:
Dear CEO and Legal Counsel,


I wrote asking for some clarification which should come from your offices. Up to now I have not received any response. I would be most grateful if you could spare some few minutes from your heavy schedule to do justice to my questions?


Thanks


Marcus

________________________________
From: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com<mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 10:32:18 AM
To: mje at posix.co.za<mailto:mje at posix.co.za>; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss; Ornella GANKPA
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections

Hello,
Thanks Ornella and others who has been actively participating in this discussion to help clear this issue once for good.
Can someone explains to me why  ?none of the above?  votes were not counted for  2017 elections  as it  was done for election 2018 ?
https<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>://<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>www.afrinic.net<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>  - 2017
https<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections>://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections> - 2018


Marcus

________________________________
From: Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com<mailto:honest1989 at gmail.com>>
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 5:34:13 PM
To: mje at posix.co.za<mailto:mje at posix.co.za>; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections


Hi Mark

My comments inline

Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit :



On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
Owen,

2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com<mailto:owen at delong.com>>:
Arnaud,

While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that there is some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY not have been a legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go changing the rules of the election and violating the expectations of the voters, membership, and community after the election has run.

Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been made; let's fix it!>>

And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope of this discussion?  This is a matter of concern for the community at large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,  it is time to listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?




Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above on the ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.

No one is raising objection even now on  this option being on the ballot as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the correct implementation  of the guidelines as written.


Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the above to change the result among the remaining two candidates, it is not legitimate to simply discard the none of the above votes and declare one of those candidates a winner. Indeed, I would argue that is the worst possible choice among all other options.

The other options as I see it are:

1. Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board member until the
next AGMM.

2. Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which case it should be
considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from appointing
anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.


3. Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for seat 2 and preclude
the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to appoint seats 5
and 6.

As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the organization to proceed with a full board until the next AGMM where a hopefully more effective election can be accomplished.

I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the CEO. (The 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s vacancy, and the CEO).

The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying treating the election of ?none of the above? differently in this circumstance than in the case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases, more voters felt that they didn?t want any of the options on the ballot and voted not to elect any fo the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless of the number of candidates and should be handled identically.

Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on ballot and has not effect on the results

What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None of the above" with "Abstain" ?
The guidelines  say:
"The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
It does not say to "reject all  the proposed candidate".
It says to not vote  for any candidate and the guidelines states that , the candidate with the highest votes wins.
Let us stop  this harmful interpretation.


and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the elections rules. In the current  situation,  the guidelines are clear  and explicit  on how we should  handle the results. So let follow it and engage on discussions  for amending the rules  if we see need to do so.

I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none of the above". Why does this seem so hard to grasp?
Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other document   which support your statement?  Some seems to refuse to read the guidelines  and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your statement.

I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one natural person on the list but not fine when there is more than one natural person on the list.
One explanation:
When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . I need a way to count the "no" vote.
a- change the ballot to  "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
b- use  natural candidate and " none of the above"
We were  using b)





Hopefully additional clarity can be achieved prior to the next election and we won?t have to face this issue again. Personally, I like the idea of having ?none of the above? as an option in all cases.

Clarity and fairness is the outcome of the complaint regarding seat 2 here imho; for the rest we can agree to disagree.

I agree to agree with Owen.



Owen

Thanks


On May 29, 2018, at 14:56 , Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com<mailto:amelnaud at gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Ashok as a lawyer you know that there is the law and spirit of the law, please read bellow

2018-05-25 11:18 GMT+00:00 Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net<mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>>:
Dear All,
I apologize for having  missed your rejoinder to my mail.

Despite the delays, we appreciate your response as the matter is of great concern.

Your first question regards the reason as to why the same principle has been applied to the election for Seat 2
notwithstanding the fact that there were two candidates.
My response is that an election cannot be run on different principles. In this particular election the option "none of the above " was
introduced for the first time and everyone was aware of this and it applied to all the elections held on that day. The Election guidelines were amended to acomodate this option.

Yes indeed and the elections guidelines explicitely addressed the case of only a single candidate running for election and the option " none of the above" in this case got more votes than the sole candidate but is very silent in the case of multiple candidates running for elections with the option "none of the above" getting more votes.

Anytime elections involve the option "none of the above", there are always clear rules on how the results are interpreted and the actions that must be taken when the option "none of the above" get more votes than the multiple candidates.

It's not my intention to teach you something here, but it does look very bizarre that the legal counsel never bothered to help the board to make  the guidelines unambiguous  and conform to members expectations.

Consequently this option has to be taken in consideration when finalising the results.
Where there were two candidates. The options for voters were (1) yes for candidate (1)-((2) yes for candidate 2-(3) yes for non of the above.Each one is mutually exclusive.
Each score to be counted separately. The majority for either option wins the day.

Following  your reasoning above and the guidelines which say the candidate with the highest votes win, the members and community should then accept "none of the above" as the elected candidate and seated although "none of the above " did not go through Nomcom and was not listed on the candidates slates  published by Nomcom.

Which means seat 2 should not be declared vacant to be filled by board.

Filling  seat 2 by board would constitute the violation of "none  of the above" rights and of our rules and thus expose us to legal litigation.


One should not create a fictitious majority by adding votes polled by (1) & (2) together. The real majority was to all intents and purposes the option which polled the most votes. There is no need to extrapolate or interpret.

There is No fictitious majority being created. It was just an example of how this case could have been interpreted just like you do have your own interpretation.

In many cases,  abstention is compared to voters in order to decide how to proceed with  validating an election and counting results..


Where there was one candidate there were two options- Yes for the single candidate or yes for  "non of the above"

The case of a sole candidate is clear as per the guidelines and there are no objections on seat 5 and 6 results.

My reference to Art 10.2 was based on the decision of the members present at  past AGMMs to have the option of rejecting a single candidate or to give their approval to the single candidate, This has occurred more than once.

And once again,  the case of a single candidate is handled as members agreed to and not debated

Thank you


Legal Counsel AFRINIC.

On 24/05/2018 21:11, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
Dear CEO and Chairman

It looks like the Legal counsel has not  responded to this query bellow   regarding this very important issue about the recently concluded elections.

Could you kindly remind him?

Let us address this to a good conclusion in order to enforce the respect of our rules and processes.

Regards

Arnaud
Le sam. 19 mai 2018 11:40, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net<mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> a ?crit :
Dear Legal Counsel,

Thanks for your input.  Much appreciated.

Your statements reinforce the interpretation of section 9.2 of the guidelines with the origin of the "none of the above" option in the election process and how votes for this option are considered in the case of one candidate running for election for a seat. [Last bullet point]

Case in which the election becomes a "yes" or "no"  vote for the only candidate.   This point is clear and accepted and the objection is not for the results for seat 5 and 6.

What has not been clarified is how the same principle came to be applied for the elections for seat 2 which had two candidates running for the seat, one of whom got higher votes than the other, with the total number of members casting votes in excess of those opting out.

You also referred to art 10.2 of the constitution but did not elaborate on the precedence that occurred that has become an integral part of our guidelines.  As precedence automatically becomes part of the election guidelines, it is important that we address issues which come up around the election with care and unambiguously.

Can you be so kind to clarify?

Best wishes
Omo

PS:  Grateful to listers to please keep this thread confined to the subject.



On 17 May 2018 at 17:17, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net<mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>> wrote:
Dear Members and Community,
Mt views have been sought on the matter under reference.
Please find same hereunder.
On 17/05/2018 14:04, B

The Election Process and last AGMM.

The appointment of Directors is carried out during an AGMM of the Company ?Art 13.1 of the constitution.

The election of the Directors is carried out in terms of Art 13.2 of the constitution which refers expressly to the election process approved by the Board.

Moreover  Art 10.2 of the Constitution refers to precedent applied during an AFRINIC election and which de facto become part of the election guidelines.

The election process  as it stands today is the one which was applied during  the elections held during the last AGMM without any opposition.

This is what it provides:

9.2 Paper Ballot on Election Day

The voting conducted during the Annual General Members' Meeting is carried out via paper ballots containing a list of candidate names and a ballot number. Prior to the vote, all members present or participants holding a proxy will be requested to register and validate their membership status.

        *   Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region. Each mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than one mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be counted.
        *   The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").
        *   This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any personal data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be counted as spoilt.
        *   Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners.
        *   In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for that position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until there is a winner.
        *   All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat

The last amendment of the election guidelines introduced the voting option ? None of the Above?. ?(Vide second bullet point above.)Those voters who have cast their votes for ? None of the Above? have done so in compliance with the prevailing  constitution  and these are thus valid votes. Every voter was aware of the new option.

The election guidelines are clear as to what happens when the ? None of the Above? option has a majority.- (Vide last bullet point above.)

The election guidelines must be read as a whole and all the provisions read together.

Legal Counsel ?AFRINIC

17.05.2018
oubakar Barry wrote:

Hello Board and Legal Counsel,

Good that Omo spotted this.

It?s a matter of applying the board election process adopted by the board according to section 13.2 of the bylaws.

https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process<https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process> describes the process and section 9 spells out how to interpret the results in the case there are more than one candidate and in the case there is only one candidate. These two cases are addressed separately and differently.

It?s important to hear from the Board and the Legal Counsel, as the elections can be challenged.

Please advise.

Regards.

Boubakar

On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net<mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> wrote:
Greetings All,

I am looking at the BoD election process and it seems to me that the recent e-mail from the Board Chair seeking nominations for vacant seats should not be extended to Western Africa.

The particular clause I am referring to is in 9.2 - https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process<https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process>

  *
Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners
I see from the list for West Africa that the candidate with the highest number of votes should have been declared winner and this is Dr Ousmane Tessa.  (btw, Dr Adewale Adedokun needs his name spelt correctly)


Western Africa - Seat 2

Dr Adelawe Abedekon - 43

Dr Ousmane Moussa Tessa - 56

None of the above - 78

Result: The seat is vacant


The results from the other regions are valid and supported by the following clause as they had one candidate.

     *   All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.

Can AfriNIC and the nomcom please clarify?   We should not deprive Dr Tessa of a rightful win ?. especially in the circumstances we find ourselves.

Omo

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From virtual.borg at gmail.com  Fri Jun  8 12:11:40 2018
From: virtual.borg at gmail.com (Chevalier du Borg)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 16:11:40 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <CAD4W+iNRi9Lae1RMRW6+Cn6dhet4PmygfhAwaLWF7te2BLpodA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603D94F2DDB07C581775A2BB9610@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603ED46AB5E0A109B734281B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAD4W+iOA6ea+tXOZKLsiazUa3YxxE_4s2=d5kCLyQ26VR+goVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB257090A8015E428F03F7C861EE7B0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAD4W+iNRi9Lae1RMRW6+Cn6dhet4PmygfhAwaLWF7te2BLpodA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5aO8cz_zYb7Jg0GW+dC1R8aBfR7QfvnzvEaQu30V9Uvx=GGg@mail.gmail.com>

Le ven. 8 juin 2018 ? 13:38, DANIEL NANGHAKA <dndannang at gmail.com> a ?crit :

>
> Currently there are issues that weren't finalised.
> And also note how board has since gone quite on issue of work place
> harrasment and IC report.
>


Those issue with staff are responsibility of CEO, not the BoD
That it is now public matter mean CEO has very seriously drop the ball


BoD also has it own problem, one of which is not communicating progress on
strategy objective to this community.
Another thing that worry me which may be in the final report


WHO LEAK THE DOCUMENT HERE?

someone on the BoD?
Mme Thuron herself?

What does that say to us?




-- 
Borg le Chevalier
___________________________________
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From ashok at afrinic.net  Fri Jun  8 11:53:36 2018
From: ashok at afrinic.net (Ashok)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 15:53:36 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB257090A8015E428F03F7C861EE7B0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603D94F2DDB07C581775A2BB9610@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603ED46AB5E0A109B734281B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAD4W+iOA6ea+tXOZKLsiazUa3YxxE_4s2=d5kCLyQ26VR+goVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB257090A8015E428F03F7C861EE7B0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <3daa58a0-0f6a-0d75-39fd-a290f818929f@afrinic.net>

Dear All,
I am the legal adviser of the company AFRINIC Ltd. Hence for me to act 
in one way or the other
I need to get instructions from the company.As presently advised I have 
not received any instructions
to seize the court for adjudicating on the matter.
 ?For the record,I have already communicated my views to the community 
on this matter ( vide my mail dated 17.05.2018).If any party wishes to 
challenge these views, they are free
to take same to court. Obviously it cannot be me.
Regards
Legal Counsel-AFRINIC.

On 08/06/2018 13:30, Andrew Alston wrote:
>
> The answer to that is simple,
>
> For something to be sorted in a court of law ? someone has to take it 
> to court.
>
> Since the people who members of this community claim were 
> disenfranchised by the vote have not taken it to court ? and since 
> there are many ? who include the AFRINIC legal council based on his 
> previous statements, who believe that the correct actions were taken ? 
> how is it going to be sorted in a court?
>
> If someone wishes to approach the Mauritian courts to adjudicate this 
> ? let them do so ? but that requires someone willing to spend the 
> money and resources to do that ? and right now ? I see a lot of people 
> whining ? but I don?t see anyone willing to dedicate the resources to 
> doing that ? and for AFRINIC to approach the court ? when they have 
> already stated clearly how they view the situation ? would be 
> equivalent to litigating against themselves.? I hardly see that happening
>
> Andrew
>
> *From:*DANIEL NANGHAKA [mailto:dndannang at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 08 June 2018 12:16
> *To:* Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
> *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; 
> AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for 
> Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>
> Why can't this issue be sorted in court?
>
> Don't we have a legal counsel?
>
> On Fri, Jun 8, 2018, 11:36 AM Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com 
> <mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Dear CEO and Legal Counsel,
>
>     I wrote asking for some clarification which should come from your
>     offices. Up to now I have not received any response. I would be
>     most grateful if you could spare some few minutes from your heavy
>     schedule to do justice to my questions?
>
>     Thanks
>
>     Marcus
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     *From:*Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com
>     <mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>>
>     *Sent:* Saturday, June 2, 2018 10:32:18 AM
>     *To:* mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>; General
>     Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss; Ornella GANKPA
>     *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result
>     for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>
>     Hello,
>
>     Thanks Ornella and others who has been actively participating in
>     this discussion to help clear this issue once for good.
>
>     Can someone explains to me why? ?none of the above?? votes were
>     not counted for? 2017 elections? as it? was done for election 2018 ?
>
>     https
>     <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>://
>     <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>www.afrinic.net
>     <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election
>     <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>
>     - 2017
>
>     https
>     <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections>://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections
>     <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections>
>     - 2018
>
>
>
>     Marcus
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     *From:*Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com
>     <mailto:honest1989 at gmail.com>>
>     *Sent:* Friday, June 1, 2018 5:34:13 PM
>     *To:* mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>; General
>     Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
>     *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result
>     for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>
>     Hi Mark
>
>     My comments inline
>
>     Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit?:
>
>         On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>
>             Owen,
>
>             2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com
>             <mailto:owen at delong.com>>:
>
>                 Arnaud,
>
>                 While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I
>                 agree that there is some validity to the claim that
>                 none of the above MAY not have been a legitimate
>                 choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go
>                 changing the rules of the election and violating the
>                 expectations of the voters, membership, and community
>                 after the election has run.
>
>             Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake
>             has been made; let's fix it!>>
>
>
>         And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am,
>         anyway). The only folk that should be commenting on this are
>         the voting membership.
>
>     Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about
>     the scope of this discussion?? This is a matter of concern for the
>     community at large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or
>     maybe,? it is time to listen to the other 1409 members who did not
>     vote?
>
>
>
>
>                 Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of
>                 the above on the ballot for seat 2 prior to or during
>                 the election.
>
>             No one is raising objection even now on ?this option being
>             on the ballot as the guidelines are clear on that. the
>             issue at hand is the correct implementation ?of the
>             guidelines as written.
>
>                 Since there were more than enough voters who selected
>                 none of the above to change the result among the
>                 remaining two candidates, it is not legitimate to
>                 simply discard the none of the above votes and declare
>                 one of those candidates a winner. Indeed, I would
>                 argue that is the worst possible choice among all
>                 other options.
>
>                 The other options as I see it are:
>
>                 1.Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and
>                 appoint a board member until the
>
>                 next AGMM.
>
>                 2.Treat none of the above as a valid election result
>                 (in which case it should be
>
>                 considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the
>                 board from appointing
>
>                 anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.
>
>                 3.Treat none of the above as a valid election result
>                 only for seat 2 and preclude
>
>                 the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing
>                 them to appoint seats 5
>
>                 and 6.
>
>                 As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows
>                 the organization to proceed with a full board until
>                 the next AGMM where a hopefully more effective
>                 election can be accomplished.
>
>                 I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board
>                 precariously short-handed with only 5 of the expected
>                 8 members, including the CEO. (The 3 elected members
>                 which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s
>                 vacancy, and the CEO).
>
>                 The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble
>                 justifying treating the election of ?none of the
>                 above? differently in this circumstance than in the
>                 case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases,
>                 more voters felt that they didn?t want any of the
>                 options on the ballot and voted not to elect any fo
>                 the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same
>                 regardless of the number of candidates and should be
>                 handled identically.
>
>             Why? There are places in the world where "none of the
>             above" is on ballot and has not effect on the results
>
>
>         What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing
>         "None of the above" with "Abstain" ?
>
>     The guidelines? say:
>     "The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not
>     vote for any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
>     It does not say to "reject all? the proposed candidate".
>     It says to not vote? for any candidate and the guidelines states
>     that , the candidate with the highest votes wins.
>     Let us stop? this harmful interpretation.
>
>
>
>
>             and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter
>             of the elections rules. In the current ?situation, ?the
>             guidelines are clear ?and explicit ?on how we should
>             ?handle the results. So let follow it and engage on
>             discussions ?for amending the rules ?if we see need to do so.
>
>
>         I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years
>         back?). Its doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a
>         person does not like *anyone* on the list of choices - the
>         member can instead select "none of the above". Why does this
>         seem so hard to grasp?
>
>     Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other
>     document?? which support your statement?? Some seems to refuse to
>     read the guidelines? and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
>     The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match
>     your statement.
>
>
>         I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only
>         one natural person on the list but not fine when there is more
>         than one natural person on the list.
>
>     One explanation:
>     When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no"
>     vote . I need a way to count the "no" vote.
>     a- change the ballot to? "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
>     b- use? natural candidate and " none of the above"
>     We were? using b)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                 Hopefully additional clarity can be achieved prior to
>                 the next election and we won?t have to face this issue
>                 again. Personally, I like the idea of having ?none of
>                 the above? as an option in all cases.
>
>             Clarity and fairness is the outcome of the complaint
>             regarding seat 2 here imho; for the rest we can agree to
>             disagree.
>
>
>         I agree to agree with Owen.
>
>
>                 Owen
>
>             Thanks
>
>                     On May 29, 2018, at 14:56 , Arnaud AMELINA
>                     <amelnaud at gmail.com <mailto:amelnaud at gmail.com>>
>                     wrote:
>
>                     Dear Ashok as a lawyer you know that there is the
>                     law and spirit of the law, please read bellow
>
>                     2018-05-25 11:18 GMT+00:00 Ashok
>                     <ashok at afrinic.net <mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>>:
>
>                         Dear All,
>                         I apologize for having? missed your rejoinder
>                         to my mail.
>
>                     Despite the delays, we appreciate your response as
>                     the matter is of great concern.
>
>                         Your first question regards the reason as to
>                         why the same principle has been applied to the
>                         election for Seat 2
>                         notwithstanding the fact that there were two
>                         candidates.
>                         My response is that an election cannot be run
>                         on different principles. In this particular
>                         election the option "none of the above " was
>                         introduced for the first time and everyone was
>                         aware of this and it applied to all the
>                         elections held on that day. The Election
>                         guidelines were amended to acomodate this option.
>
>                     Yes indeed and the elections guidelines
>                     explicitely addressed the case of only a single
>                     candidate running for election and the option "
>                     none of the above" in this case got more votes
>                     than the sole candidate but is very silent in the
>                     case of multiple candidates running for elections
>                     with the option "none of the above" getting more
>                     votes.
>
>                     Anytime elections involve the option "none of the
>                     above", there are always clear rules on how the
>                     results are interpreted and the actions that must
>                     be taken when the option "none of the above" get
>                     more votes than the multiple candidates.
>
>                     It's not my intention to teach you something here,
>                     but it does look very bizarre that the legal
>                     counsel never bothered to help the board to make
>                     ?the guidelines unambiguous ?and conform to
>                     members expectations.
>
>                         Consequently this option has to be taken in
>                         consideration when finalising the results.
>                         Where there were two candidates. The options
>                         for voters were (1) yes for candidate (1)-((2)
>                         yes for candidate 2-(3) yes for non of the
>                         above.Each one is mutually exclusive.
>                         Each score to be counted separately. The
>                         majority for either option wins the day.
>
>                     Following ?your reasoning above and the guidelines
>                     which say the candidate with the highest votes
>                     win, the members and community should then accept
>                     "none of the above" as the elected candidate and
>                     seated although "none of the above " did not go
>                     through Nomcom and was not listed on the
>                     candidates slates ?published by Nomcom.
>
>                     Which means seat 2 should not be declared vacant
>                     to be filled by board.
>
>                     Filling ?seat 2 by board would constitute the
>                     violation of "none ?of the above" rights and of
>                     our rules and thus expose us to legal litigation.
>
>                         One should not create a fictitious majority by
>                         adding votes polled by (1) & (2) together. The
>                         real majority was to all intents and purposes
>                         the option which polled the most votes. There
>                         is no need to extrapolate or interpret.
>
>                     There is No fictitious majority being created. It
>                     was just an example of how this case could have
>                     been interpreted just like you do have your own
>                     interpretation.
>
>                     In many cases, ?abstention is compared to voters
>                     in order to decide how to proceed with ?validating
>                     an election and counting results..
>
>                         Where there was one candidate there were two
>                         options- Yes for the single candidate or yes
>                         for? "non of the above"
>
>                     The case of a sole candidate is clear as per the
>                     guidelines and there are no objections on seat 5
>                     and 6 results.
>
>                         My reference to Art 10.2 was based on the
>                         decision of the members present at? past AGMMs
>                         to have the option of rejecting a single
>                         candidate or to give their approval to the
>                         single candidate, This has occurred more than
>                         once.
>
>                     And once again, ?the case of a single candidate is
>                     handled as members agreed to and not debated
>
>                     Thank you
>
>                         Legal Counsel AFRINIC.
>
>                         On 24/05/2018 21:11, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>
>                             Dear CEO and Chairman
>
>                             It looks like the Legal counsel has not
>                             ?responded to this query bellow regarding
>                             this very important issue about the
>                             recently concluded elections.
>
>                             Could you kindly remind him?
>
>                             Let us address this to a good conclusion
>                             in order to enforce the respect of our
>                             rules and processes.
>
>                             Regards
>
>                             Arnaud
>
>                             Le sam. 19 mai 2018 11:40, Omo Oaiya
>                             <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net
>                             <mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> a ?crit?:
>
>                                 Dear Legal Counsel,
>
>                                 Thanks for your input.? Much appreciated.
>
>                                 Your statements reinforce the
>                                 interpretation of section 9.2 of the
>                                 guidelines with the origin of the
>                                 "none of the above" option in the
>                                 election process and how votes for
>                                 this option are considered in the case
>                                 of one candidate running for election
>                                 for a seat. [Last bullet point]
>
>                                 Case in which the election becomes a
>                                 "yes" or "no"? vote for the only
>                                 candidate. ?This point?is clear and
>                                 accepted and the objection is not for
>                                 the results for seat 5 and 6.
>
>                                 What has not been clarified is how the
>                                 same principle came to be applied for
>                                 the elections for seat 2 which had two
>                                 candidates running for the seat, one
>                                 of whom got higher votes than the
>                                 other, with the total number of
>                                 members casting votes in excess of
>                                 those opting out.
>
>                                 You also?referred to art 10.2 of the
>                                 constitution?but did not elaborate on
>                                 the precedence that occurred that has
>                                 become an integral?part of
>                                 our?guidelines. As precedence
>                                 automatically becomes part of the
>                                 election guidelines, it is important
>                                 that we address issues which come up
>                                 around the election with care and
>                                 unambiguously.
>
>                                 Can you be so kind to clarify?
>
>                                 Best wishes
>
>                                 Omo
>
>                                 PS:? Grateful to listers to please
>                                 keep?this thread confined to the subject.
>
>                                 On 17 May 2018 at 17:17, Ashok
>                                 <ashok at afrinic.net
>                                 <mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>> wrote:
>
>                                     Dear Members and Community,
>                                     Mt views have been sought on the
>                                     matter under reference.
>                                     Please find same hereunder.
>
>                                     On 17/05/2018 14:04, B
>
>                                     *_The Election Process and last
>                                     AGMM._*
>
>                                     The appointment of Directors is
>                                     carried out during an AGMM of the
>                                     Company ?Art 13.1 of the constitution.
>
>                                     The election of the Directors is
>                                     carried out in terms of Art 13.2
>                                     of the constitution which refers
>                                     expressly to the election process
>                                     approved by the Board.
>
>                                     Moreover? Art 10.2 of the
>                                     Constitution refers to precedent
>                                     applied during an AFRINIC election
>                                     and which de facto become part of
>                                     the election guidelines.
>
>                                     The election process? as it stands
>                                     today is the one which was applied
>                                     during? the elections held during
>                                     the last AGMM without any opposition.
>
>                                     This is what it provides:
>
>                                     *9.2 Paper Ballot on Election Day*
>
>                                     The voting conducted during the
>                                     Annual General Members' Meeting is
>                                     carried out via paper ballots
>                                     containing a list of candidate
>                                     names and a ballot number. Prior
>                                     to the vote, all members present
>                                     or participants holding a proxy
>                                     will be requested to register and
>                                     validate their membership status.
>
>                                               + Voters should only
>                                                 vote for one candidate
>                                                 per category/region.
>                                                 Each mark on a ballot
>                                                 paper represents one
>                                                 vote. A ballot with
>                                                 more than one mark per
>                                                 category/region will
>                                                 be considered spoilt,
>                                                 and not be counted.
>                                               + The ballot paper
>                                                 should provide voters
>                                                 with the option to not
>                                                 vote for any candidate
>                                                 (a.k.a. "None of the
>                                                 Above").
>                                               + This will be a secret
>                                                 ballot election. An
>                                                 inclusion of any
>                                                 personal data on the
>                                                 ballot paper will
>                                                 invalidate the vote
>                                                 and will be counted as
>                                                 spoilt.
>                                               + Elections will be
>                                                 closed as soon as the
>                                                 last member or proxy
>                                                 present in the meeting
>                                                 room casts his/her
>                                                 vote. Candidates with
>                                                 the highest number of
>                                                 votes in each category
>                                                 will be declared winners.
>                                               + In the event of a tie
>                                                 for an open position,
>                                                 voting for that
>                                                 position will be
>                                                 repeated (Only by
>                                                 paper ballot) the same
>                                                 day until there is a
>                                                 winner.
>                                               + All open positions
>                                                 shall be subject to an
>                                                 election process even
>                                                 if there is only one
>                                                 candidate. In that
>                                                 event, if the option
>                                                 [none of the above]
>                                                 got more votes than
>                                                 the only candidate,
>                                                 then the seat shall be
>                                                 considered vacant and
>                                                 the Board will be
>                                                 requested to apply
>                                                 provisions of the
>                                                 Bylaws to temporarily
>                                                 fill the vacant seat
>
>                                     The last amendment of the election
>                                     guidelines introduced the voting
>                                     option ? None of the Above?.
>                                     ?(Vide second bullet point
>                                     above.)Those voters who have cast
>                                     their votes for ? None of the
>                                     Above? have done so in compliance
>                                     with the prevailing constitution
>                                     ?and these are thus valid votes.
>                                     Every voter was aware of the new
>                                     option.
>
>                                     The election guidelines are clear
>                                     as to what happens when the ? None
>                                     of the Above? option has a
>                                     majority.- (Vide last bullet point
>                                     above.)
>
>                                     The election guidelines must be
>                                     read as a whole and all the
>                                     provisions read together.
>
>                                     Legal Counsel ?AFRINIC
>
>                                     17.05.2018
>
>                                     oubakar Barry wrote:
>
>                                         Hello Board and Legal Counsel,
>
>                                         Good that Omo spotted this.
>
>                                         It?s a matter of applying the
>                                         board election process adopted
>                                         by the board according to
>                                         section 13.2 of the bylaws.
>
>                                         https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process
>                                         describes the process and
>                                         section 9 spells out how to
>                                         interpret the results in the
>                                         case there are more than one
>                                         candidate and in the case
>                                         there is only one candidate.
>                                         These two cases are addressed
>                                         separately and differently.
>
>                                         It?s important to hear from
>                                         the Board and the Legal
>                                         Counsel, as the elections can
>                                         be challenged.
>
>                                         Please advise.
>
>                                         Regards.
>
>                                         Boubakar
>
>                                         On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:24
>                                         PM, Omo Oaiya
>                                         <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net
>                                         <mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>>
>                                         wrote:
>
>                                             Greetings All,
>
>                                             I am looking at the BoD
>                                             election process and it
>                                             seems to me that the
>                                             recent e-mail from the
>                                             Board Chair seeking
>                                             nominations for vacant
>                                             seats should not be
>                                             extended to Western Africa.
>
>                                             The particular clause I am
>                                             referring to is in 9.2 -
>                                             https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process
>
>                                                  *
>
>
>                                                     Elections will be
>                                                     closed as soon as
>                                                     the last member or
>                                                     proxy present in
>                                                     the meeting room
>                                                     casts his/her
>                                                     vote. Candidates
>                                                     with the highest
>                                                     number of votes in
>                                                     each category will
>                                                     be declared winners
>
>                                             I see from the list for
>                                             West Africa that the
>                                             candidate with the highest
>                                             number of votes should
>                                             have been declared winner
>                                             and this is Dr Ousmane
>                                             Tessa. ?(btw, Dr Adewale
>                                             Adedokun needs his name
>                                             spelt correctly)
>
>
>                                                 *Western Africa - Seat 2*
>
>                                                 Dr Adelawe Abedekon - 43
>
>                                                 Dr Ousmane Moussa
>                                                 Tessa - 56
>
>                                                 None of the above - 78
>
>                                                 /Result: The seat is
>                                                 vacant/
>
>                                             The results from the other
>                                             regions are valid and
>                                             supported by the following
>                                             clause as they had one
>                                             candidate.
>
>                                                       o All open
>                                                         positions
>                                                         shall be
>                                                         subject to an
>                                                         election
>                                                         process even
>                                                         if there is
>                                                         only one
>                                                         candidate. In
>                                                         that event, if
>                                                         the option
>                                                         [none of the
>                                                         above] got
>                                                         more votes
>                                                         than the only
>                                                         candidate,
>                                                         then the seat
>                                                         shall be
>                                                         considered
>                                                         vacant and the
>                                                         Board will be
>                                                         requested to
>                                                         apply
>                                                         provisions of
>                                                         the Bylaws to
>                                                         temporarily
>                                                         fill the
>                                                         vacant seat.
>
>                                             Can AfriNIC and the nomcom
>                                             please clarify? ? We
>                                             should not deprive Dr
>                                             Tessa of a rightful win ?.
>                                             especially in the
>                                             circumstances we find
>                                             ourselves.
>
>                                             Omo
>
>
>                                             _______________________________________________
>                                             Community-Discuss mailing list
>                                             Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>                                             <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>                                             https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>                                         _______________________________________________
>
>                                         Members-Discuss mailing list
>
>                                         Members-Discuss at afrinic.net
>                                         <mailto:Members-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>
>                                         https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss
>
>                                 _______________________________________________
>                                 Community-Discuss mailing list
>                                 Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>                                 <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>                                 https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>                     _______________________________________________
>                     Community-Discuss mailing list
>                     Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>                     <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>                     https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>             _______________________________________________
>
>             Community-Discuss mailing list
>
>             Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>             <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>
>             https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
>
>         -- 
>
>         Mark James ELKINS? -? Posix Systems - (South) Africa
>
>         mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za> ?????? Tel: +27.128070590? Cell: +27.826010496
>
>         For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA:https://ftth.posix.co.za
>
>         _______________________________________________
>
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>
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>
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>
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From Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com  Fri Jun  8 16:47:01 2018
From: Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com (Ben Roberts)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 16:47:01 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
 Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <241986c2c2b5dad816066836a76002bb@musatesa.net>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
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 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <1C0EDE3C-A90D-4DE7-B87C-485A3E81171D@delong.com>
 <CAHt2V=_-==ujFUFZ-ukRSw894chpdrGv86OG36cLSTXvUDPqFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEqgTWaZF+H=370xbsGk5nN70MA_WGYoJ6HrHgwmpvE=Gf3zFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <VI1PR0302MB3181150568C9E1DA5E9AF14DE8640@VI1PR0302MB3181.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWZpsz0y1ym_F7xtkVSfZM833zbxzcxYdZePu17dvYufsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B67F2DD4-EA64-4D03-AF08-85376478D720@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAEqgTWaJrk+WqKujW9fjWdA-fVjcazDNo0OTkdiVssFW0_9P5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <241986c2c2b5dad816066836a76002bb@musatesa.net>
Message-ID: <VI1PR0302MB31817E0287041EE066459A13E87B0@VI1PR0302MB3181.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Ousmane,

The election results were

Eastern Africa - Seat 6

Abibu Rashid Ntahige - 80

None of the above - 97

Result: The seat is vacant

Western Africa - Seat 2

Dr Adelawe Adedokon - 43

Dr Ousmane Moussa Tessa - 56

None of the above - 78

Result: The seat is vacant

Southern Africa - Seat 5

Lucky Masilela - 79

None of the above - 97

Result: The seat is vacant

>>>>Please check your basic arithmetic avant d'avancer des id?es sans
fondement!

So here goes with my maths..
97 > 80 ? Seems the result is correct
78 > 56 > 43 - Seems the result is correct
97 > 79 ? Seems the result is correct

Number of mails from members complaining about the election results = too many
Number of mails from the losing candidates putting actually lodging an appeal ? I don?t think I?ve seen any ? so zero.

I am sure it is open for you to lodge some kind of appeal or even go to court if you feel inclined.  But the basic arithmetic as I have presented above indicates that more members wanted to see neither of the 2 tabled candidates to be elected, than this members that wanted to elect either of the 2 candidates.  So you might have to put in a better grounds for appeal, than just stating your opinion that I cant do basic arithmetic, since I don?t think that argument is gonna hold up.





From: Ousmane MOUSSA TESSA [mailto:ousmane at musatesa.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2018 4:45 PM
To: Noah <noah at neo.co.tz>
Cc: Ben Roberts <Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com>; General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections

L? Ben de Liquid Telecoms, vous allez loin dans vos all?gations!

En tant que candidat, j'ai la conviction que que c'est bien une MAJORITE
qui a jug? utile de r?partir leurs voix entre nos deux candidats!

Nous ?vitons de nous positionner individuellement en face de "ceux-l?".

Please check your basic arithmetic avant d'avancer des id?es sans
fondement!

Ousmane


Le 07-06-2018 14:34, Noah a ?crit :
> On Thu, 7 Jun 2018, 12:44 p.m. Ben Roberts,
> <Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
>> But isn?t this an academic discussion?
>>
>> I?m not seeing any of the candidates that were rejected by
>> majority by the members raising any requests to appeal?
>
> We have major issues that need answers in order to fix the flaws that
> are apparently being avoided by those tasked with answers.
>
> If the board or the CEO or the legal counsel dodges answering some of
> this questions then how shall we fix what is clearly broken.
>
> Noah
>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

--

**************************************************
Dr Ousmane MOUSSA TESSA
D?partement de math?matiques et d'informatique
Universit? A. Moumouni, Niamey, NIGER
****************************************************
Adresse postale: B.P. 10.111 Niamey, NIGER
T?l?phone (domicile): +227 20 31 52 28
(mobile) : +227 93 77 74 93/ 96 27 99 92 / 91 49 16 39
****************************************************
E-mail: ousmane(at)musatesa.net ou musatesa(at)yahoo.com
Web site: www.musatesa.net<http://www.musatesa.net>
Skype : musatesa
************************************************
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From madomey at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  8 21:27:39 2018
From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 21:27:39 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for
	Western	Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <460991528450057@web26o.yandex.ru>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>,
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>,
 <AM0PR0602MB3603D94F2DDB07C581775A2BB9610@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603ED46AB5E0A109B734281B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>,
 <460991528450057@web26o.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <AM0PR0602MB3603CB606485AE0881F92AC8B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>

If "none of the above" votes were counted to determine the winner, they should have been published.


Not publishing the none of above votes is compliant to the guidelines as only the candidates with highest votes win.


For GC election in 2017, there was only one candidate; " none of the above" or "against"  votes  were  not even counted  and I wonder how the winner was determined.

Let's look at ourselves in a mirror, be truthful to ourselves and do the right thing.  Better late than never..




Marcus

________________________________
From: Dabu Sifiso <dabu.sifiso at yandex.com>
Sent: Friday, June 8, 2018 9:27:37 AM
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections


"none of the above" was counted in 2017:
https://youtu.be/HSJCRrKoOgs


08.06.2018, 03:37, "Marcus K. G. Adomey" <madomey at hotmail.com>:
> Dear CEO and Legal Counsel,
>
> I wrote asking for some clarification which should come from your offices. Up to now I have not received any response. I would be most grateful if you could spare some few minutes from your heavy schedule to do justice to my questions?
>
> Thanks
>
> Marcus
>
> ----------------------------------------
> From: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 10:32:18 AM
> To: mje at posix.co.za; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss; Ornella GANKPA
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>
> Hello,
>
> Thanks Ornella and others who has been actively participating in this discussion to help clear this issue once for good.
>
> Can someone explains to me why  ?none of the above?  votes were not counted for  2017 elections  as it  was done for election 2018 ?
>
> https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election  - 2017
>
> https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections - 2018
>
> Marcus
>
> ----------------------------------------
> From: Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 5:34:13 PM
> To: mje at posix.co.za; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>
> Hi Mark
>
> My comments inline
>
> Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit :
>> On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>>> Owen,
>>>
>>> 2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>:
>>>> Arnaud,
>>>>
>>>> While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that there is some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY not have been a legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go changing the rules of the election and violating the expectations of the voters, membership, and community after the election has run.
>>>
>>> Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been made; let's fix it!>>
>>
>> And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
> Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope of this discussion?  This is a matter of concern for the community at large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,  it is time to listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?
>
>>>> Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above on the ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.
>>>
>>> No one is raising objection even now on  this option being on the ballot as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the correct implementation  of the guidelines as written.
>>>
>>>> Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the above to change the result among the remaining two candidates, it is not legitimate to simply discard the none of the above votes and declare one of those candidates a winner. Indeed, I would argue that is the worst possible choice among all other options.
>>>>
>>>> The other options as I see it are:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board member until the
>>>> next AGMM.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which case it should be
>>>> considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from appointing
>>>> anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.
>>>>
>>>> 3. Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for seat 2 and preclude
>>>> the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to appoint seats 5
>>>> and 6.
>>>>
>>>> As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the organization to proceed with a full board until the next AGMM where a hopefully more effective election can be accomplished.
>>>>
>>>> I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the CEO. (The 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s vacancy, and the CEO).
>>>>
>>>> The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying treating the election of ?none of the above? differently in this circumstance than in the case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases, more voters felt that they didn?t want any of the options on the ballot and voted not to elect any fo the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless of the number of candidates and should be handled identically.
>>>
>>> Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on ballot and has not effect on the results
>>
>> What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None of the above" with "Abstain" ?
> The guidelines  say:
> "The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
> It does not say to "reject all  the proposed candidate".
> It says to not vote  for any candidate and the guidelines states that , the candidate with the highest votes wins.
> Let us stop  this harmful interpretation.
>
>>> and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the elections rules. In the current  situation,  the guidelines are clear  and explicit  on how we should  handle the results. So let follow it and engage on discussions  for amending the rules  if we see need to do so.
>>
>> I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none of the above". Why does this seem so hard to grasp?
> Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other document   which support your statement?  Some seems to refuse to read the guidelines  and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
> The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your statement.
>
>> I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one natural person on the list but not fine when there is more than one natural person on the list.
> One explanation:
> When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . I need a way to count the "no" vote.
> a- change the ballot to  "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
> b- use  natural candidate and " none of the above"
> We were  using b)
>
>>>
>>
>>>> Hopefully additional clarity can be achieved prior to the next election and we won?t have to face this issue again. Personally, I like the idea of having ?none of the above? as an option in all cases.
>>>
>>> Clarity and fairness is the outcome of the complaint regarding seat 2 here imho; for the rest we can agree to disagree.
>>
>> I agree to agree with Owen.
>>
>>>> Owen
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>>> On May 29, 2018, at 14:56 , Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Ashok as a lawyer you know that there is the law and spirit of the law, please read bellow
>>>>>
>>>>> 2018-05-25 11:18 GMT+00:00 Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net>:
>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>> I apologize for having  missed your rejoinder to my mail.
>>>>>
>>>>> Despite the delays, we appreciate your response as the matter is of great concern.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Your first question regards the reason as to why the same principle has been applied to the election for Seat 2
>>>>>> notwithstanding the fact that there were two candidates.
>>>>>> My response is that an election cannot be run on different principles. In this particular election the option "none of the above " was
>>>>>> introduced for the first time and everyone was aware of this and it applied to all the elections held on that day. The Election guidelines were amended to acomodate this option.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes indeed and the elections guidelines explicitely addressed the case of only a single candidate running for election and the option " none of the above" in this case got more votes than the sole candidate but is very silent in the case of multiple candidates running for elections with the option "none of the above" getting more votes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anytime elections involve the option "none of the above", there are always clear rules on how the results are interpreted and the actions that must be taken when the option "none of the above" get more votes than the multiple candidates.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not my intention to teach you something here, but it does look very bizarre that the legal counsel never bothered to help the board to make  the guidelines unambiguous  and conform to members expectations.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Consequently this option has to be taken in consideration when finalising the results.
>>>>>> Where there were two candidates. The options for voters were (1) yes for candidate (1)-((2) yes for candidate 2-(3) yes for non of the above.Each one is mutually exclusive.
>>>>>> Each score to be counted separately. The majority for either option wins the day.
>>>>>
>>>>> Following  your reasoning above and the guidelines which say the candidate with the highest votes win, the members and community should then accept "none of the above" as the elected candidate and seated although "none of the above " did not go through Nomcom and was not listed on the candidates slates  published by Nomcom.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which means seat 2 should not be declared vacant to be filled by board.
>>>>>
>>>>> Filling  seat 2 by board would constitute the violation of "none  of the above" rights and of our rules and thus expose us to legal litigation.
>>>>>
>>>>>> One should not create a fictitious majority by adding votes polled by (1) & (2) together. The real majority was to all intents and purposes the option which polled the most votes. There is no need to extrapolate or interpret.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is No fictitious majority being created. It was just an example of how this case could have been interpreted just like you do have your own interpretation.
>>>>>
>>>>> In many cases,  abstention is compared to voters in order to decide how to proceed with  validating an election and counting results..
>>>>>
>>>>>> Where there was one candidate there were two options- Yes for the single candidate or yes for  "non of the above"
>>>>>
>>>>> The case of a sole candidate is clear as per the guidelines and there are no objections on seat 5 and 6 results.
>>>>>
>>>>>> My reference to Art 10.2 was based on the decision of the members present at  past AGMMs to have the option of rejecting a single candidate or to give their approval to the single candidate, This has occurred more than once.
>>>>>
>>>>> And once again,  the case of a single candidate is handled as members agreed to and not debated
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you
>>>>>
>>>>>> Legal Counsel AFRINIC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 24/05/2018 21:11, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>>>>>>> Dear CEO and Chairman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It looks like the Legal counsel has not  responded to this query bellow   regarding this very important issue about the recently concluded elections.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could you kindly remind him?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let us address this to a good conclusion in order to enforce the respect of our rules and processes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arnaud
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Le sam. 19 mai 2018 11:40, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> a ?crit :
>>>>>>>> Dear Legal Counsel,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for your input.  Much appreciated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your statements reinforce the interpretation of section 9.2 of the guidelines with the origin of the "none of the above" option in the election process and how votes for this option are considered in the case of one candidate running for election for a seat. [Last bullet point]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Case in which the election becomes a "yes" or "no"  vote for the only candidate.   This point is clear and accepted and the objection is not for the results for seat 5 and 6.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What has not been clarified is how the same principle came to be applied for the elections for seat 2 which had two candidates running for the seat, one of whom got higher votes than the other, with the total number of members casting votes in excess of those opting out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You also referred to art 10.2 of the constitution but did not elaborate on the precedence that occurred that has become an integral part of our guidelines.  As precedence automatically becomes part of the election guidelines, it is important that we address issues which come up around the election with care and unambiguously.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can you be so kind to clarify?
>>>>>>>> Best wishes
>>>>>>>> Omo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PS:  Grateful to listers to please keep this thread confined to the subject.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 17 May 2018 at 17:17, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Dear Members and Community,
>>>>>>>>> Mt views have been sought on the matter under reference.
>>>>>>>>> Please find same hereunder.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 17/05/2018 14:04, B
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Election Process and last AGMM.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The appointment of Directors is carried out during an AGMM of the Company ?Art 13.1 of the constitution.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The election of the Directors is carried out in terms of Art 13.2 of the constitution which refers expressly to the election process approved by the Board.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Moreover  Art 10.2 of the Constitution refers to precedent applied during an AFRINIC election and which de facto become part of the election guidelines.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The election process  as it stands today is the one which was applied during  the elections held during the last AGMM without any opposition.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is what it provides:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 9.2 Paper Ballot on Election Day
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The voting conducted during the Annual General Members' Meeting is carried out via paper ballots containing a list of candidate names and a ballot number. Prior to the vote, all members present or participants holding a proxy will be requested to register and validate their membership status.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region. Each mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than one mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be counted.
>>>>>>>>> * The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").
>>>>>>>>> * This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any personal data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be counted as spoilt.
>>>>>>>>> * Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners.
>>>>>>>>> * In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for that position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until there is a winner.
>>>>>>>>> * All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The last amendment of the election guidelines introduced the voting option ? None of the Above?. ?(Vide second bullet point above.)Those voters who have cast their votes for ? None of the Above? have done so in compliance with the prevailing  constitution  and these are thus valid votes. Every voter was aware of the new option.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The election guidelines are clear as to what happens when the ? None of the Above? option has a majority.- (Vide last bullet point above.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The election guidelines must be read as a whole and all the provisions read together.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Legal Counsel ?AFRINIC
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 17.05.2018
>>>>>>>>> oubakar Barry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hello Board and Legal Counsel,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good that Omo spotted this.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It?s a matter of applying the board election process adopted by the board according to section 13.2 of the bylaws.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process describes the process and section 9 spells out how to interpret the results in the case there are more than one candidate and in the case there is only one candidate. These two cases are addressed separately and differently.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It?s important to hear from the Board and the Legal Counsel, as the elections can be challenged.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Please advise.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Boubakar
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Greetings All,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am looking at the BoD election process and it seems to me that the recent e-mail from the Board Chair seeking nominations for vacant seats should not be extended to Western Africa.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The particular clause I am referring to is in 9.2 - https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process
>>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>>> Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners
>>>>>>>>>>> I see from the list for West Africa that the candidate with the highest number of votes should have been declared winner and this is Dr Ousmane Tessa.  (btw, Dr Adewale Adedokun needs his name spelt correctly)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Western Africa - Seat 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dr Adelawe Abedekon - 43
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dr Ousmane Moussa Tessa - 56
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> None of the above - 78
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Result: The seat is vacant
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The results from the other regions are valid and supported by the following clause as they had one candidate.
>>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> * All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.
>>>>>>>>>>> Can AfriNIC and the nomcom please clarify?   We should not deprive Dr Tessa of a rightful win ?. especially in the circumstances we find ourselves.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Omo
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ Members-Discuss mailing list Members-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>>>>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>> -- Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>>
>> _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> ,
>
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From owen at delong.com  Fri Jun  8 23:57:48 2018
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 16:57:48 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for
	Western	Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR0602MB3603CB606485AE0881F92AC8B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
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 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <84C3C848-A4AA-4DC4-B0B1-DE507A1A1FF4@delong.com>

I think that the rather distinct probability was that in 2017 there were no votes for ?none of the above? to count.

Just because it appears on the slate does not mean it received any votes.

However, in this case, in 2018, ?none of the above? received a plurality of the vote.

Owen

> On Jun 8, 2018, at 14:27 , Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> If "none of the above" votes were counted to determine the winner, they should have been published.
> 
> 
> Not publishing the none of above votes is compliant to the guidelines as only the candidates with highest votes win.
> 
> 
> For GC election in 2017, there was only one candidate; " none of the above" or "against"  votes  were  not even counted  and I wonder how the winner was determined.
> 
> Let's look at ourselves in a mirror, be truthful to ourselves and do the right thing.  Better late than never..
> 
> 
> 
> Marcus
> From: Dabu Sifiso <dabu.sifiso at yandex.com <mailto:dabu.sifiso at yandex.com>>
> Sent: Friday, June 8, 2018 9:27:37 AM
> To: General Discussions of AFRINIC
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>  
> 
> "none of the above" was counted in 2017:
> https://youtu.be/HSJCRrKoOgs <https://youtu.be/HSJCRrKoOgs>
> 
> 
> 08.06.2018, 03:37, "Marcus K. G. Adomey" <madomey at hotmail.com <mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>>:
> > Dear CEO and Legal Counsel,
> >
> > I wrote asking for some clarification which should come from your offices. Up to now I have not received any response. I would be most grateful if you could spare some few minutes from your heavy schedule to do justice to my questions?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> > From: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com <mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 10:32:18 AM
> > To: mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss; Ornella GANKPA
> > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Thanks Ornella and others who has been actively participating in this discussion to help clear this issue once for good.
> >
> > Can someone explains to me why  ?none of the above?  votes were not counted for  2017 elections  as it  was done for election 2018 ?
> >
> > https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>  - 2017
> >
> > https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections <https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections> - 2018
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> > From: Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com <mailto:honest1989 at gmail.com>>
> > Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 5:34:13 PM
> > To: mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
> > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
> >
> > Hi Mark
> >
> > My comments inline
> >
> > Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit :
> >> On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
> >>> Owen,
> >>>
> >>> 2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com <mailto:owen at delong.com>>:
> >>>> Arnaud,
> >>>>
> >>>> While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that there is some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY not have been a legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go changing the rules of the election and violating the expectations of the voters, membership, and community after the election has run.
> >>>
> >>> Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been made; let's fix it!>>
> >>
> >> And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
> > Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope of this discussion?  This is a matter of concern for the community at large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,  it is time to listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?
> >
> >>>> Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above on the ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.
> >>>
> >>> No one is raising objection even now on  this option being on the ballot as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the correct implementation  of the guidelines as written.
> >>>
> >>>> Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the above to change the result among the remaining two candidates, it is not legitimate to simply discard the none of the above votes and declare one of those candidates a winner. Indeed, I would argue that is the worst possible choice among all other options.
> >>>>
> >>>> The other options as I see it are:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board member until the
> >>>> next AGMM.
> >>>>
> >>>> 2. Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which case it should be
> >>>> considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from appointing
> >>>> anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.
> >>>>
> >>>> 3. Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for seat 2 and preclude
> >>>> the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to appoint seats 5
> >>>> and 6.
> >>>>
> >>>> As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the organization to proceed with a full board until the next AGMM where a hopefully more effective election can be accomplished.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the CEO. (The 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s vacancy, and the CEO).
> >>>>
> >>>> The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying treating the election of ?none of the above? differently in this circumstance than in the case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases, more voters felt that they didn?t want any of the options on the ballot and voted not to elect any fo the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless of the number of candidates and should be handled identically.
> >>>
> >>> Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on ballot and has not effect on the results
> >>
> >> What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None of the above" with "Abstain" ?
> > The guidelines  say:
> > "The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
> > It does not say to "reject all  the proposed candidate".
> > It says to not vote  for any candidate and the guidelines states that , the candidate with the highest votes wins.
> > Let us stop  this harmful interpretation.
> >
> >>> and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the elections rules. In the current  situation,  the guidelines are clear  and explicit  on how we should  handle the results. So let follow it and engage on discussions  for amending the rules  if we see need to do so.
> >>
> >> I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none of the above". Why does this seem so hard to grasp?
> > Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other document   which support your statement?  Some seems to refuse to read the guidelines  and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
> > The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your statement.
> >
> >> I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one natural person on the list but not fine when there is more than one natural person on the list.
> > One explanation:
> > When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . I need a way to count the "no" vote.
> > a- change the ballot to  "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
> > b- use  natural candidate and " none of the above"
> > We were  using b)
> >
> >>>
> >>
> >>>> Hopefully additional clarity can be achieved prior to the next election and we won?t have to face this issue again. Personally, I like the idea of having ?none of the above? as an option in all cases.
> >>>
> >>> Clarity and fairness is the outcome of the complaint regarding seat 2 here imho; for the rest we can agree to disagree.
> >>
> >> I agree to agree with Owen.
> >>
> >>>> Owen
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>>
> >>>>> On May 29, 2018, at 14:56 , Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com <mailto:amelnaud at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dear Ashok as a lawyer you know that there is the law and spirit of the law, please read bellow
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2018-05-25 11:18 GMT+00:00 Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net <mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>>:
> >>>>>> Dear All,
> >>>>>> I apologize for having  missed your rejoinder to my mail.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Despite the delays, we appreciate your response as the matter is of great concern.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Your first question regards the reason as to why the same principle has been applied to the election for Seat 2
> >>>>>> notwithstanding the fact that there were two candidates.
> >>>>>> My response is that an election cannot be run on different principles. In this particular election the option "none of the above " was
> >>>>>> introduced for the first time and everyone was aware of this and it applied to all the elections held on that day. The Election guidelines were amended to acomodate this option.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes indeed and the elections guidelines explicitely addressed the case of only a single candidate running for election and the option " none of the above" in this case got more votes than the sole candidate but is very silent in the case of multiple candidates running for elections with the option "none of the above" getting more votes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Anytime elections involve the option "none of the above", there are always clear rules on how the results are interpreted and the actions that must be taken when the option "none of the above" get more votes than the multiple candidates.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's not my intention to teach you something here, but it does look very bizarre that the legal counsel never bothered to help the board to make  the guidelines unambiguous  and conform to members expectations.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Consequently this option has to be taken in consideration when finalising the results.
> >>>>>> Where there were two candidates. The options for voters were (1) yes for candidate (1)-((2) yes for candidate 2-(3) yes for non of the above.Each one is mutually exclusive.
> >>>>>> Each score to be counted separately. The majority for either option wins the day.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Following  your reasoning above and the guidelines which say the candidate with the highest votes win, the members and community should then accept "none of the above" as the elected candidate and seated although "none of the above " did not go through Nomcom and was not listed on the candidates slates  published by Nomcom.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Which means seat 2 should not be declared vacant to be filled by board.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Filling  seat 2 by board would constitute the violation of "none  of the above" rights and of our rules and thus expose us to legal litigation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> One should not create a fictitious majority by adding votes polled by (1) & (2) together. The real majority was to all intents and purposes the option which polled the most votes. There is no need to extrapolate or interpret.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There is No fictitious majority being created. It was just an example of how this case could have been interpreted just like you do have your own interpretation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In many cases,  abstention is compared to voters in order to decide how to proceed with  validating an election and counting results..
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Where there was one candidate there were two options- Yes for the single candidate or yes for  "non of the above"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The case of a sole candidate is clear as per the guidelines and there are no objections on seat 5 and 6 results.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> My reference to Art 10.2 was based on the decision of the members present at  past AGMMs to have the option of rejecting a single candidate or to give their approval to the single candidate, This has occurred more than once.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And once again,  the case of a single candidate is handled as members agreed to and not debated
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Legal Counsel AFRINIC.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 24/05/2018 21:11, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
> >>>>>>> Dear CEO and Chairman
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It looks like the Legal counsel has not  responded to this query bellow   regarding this very important issue about the recently concluded elections.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Could you kindly remind him?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Let us address this to a good conclusion in order to enforce the respect of our rules and processes.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Arnaud
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Le sam. 19 mai 2018 11:40, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net <mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> a ?crit :
> >>>>>>>> Dear Legal Counsel,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks for your input.  Much appreciated.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Your statements reinforce the interpretation of section 9.2 of the guidelines with the origin of the "none of the above" option in the election process and how votes for this option are considered in the case of one candidate running for election for a seat. [Last bullet point]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Case in which the election becomes a "yes" or "no"  vote for the only candidate.   This point is clear and accepted and the objection is not for the results for seat 5 and 6.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> What has not been clarified is how the same principle came to be applied for the elections for seat 2 which had two candidates running for the seat, one of whom got higher votes than the other, with the total number of members casting votes in excess of those opting out.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You also referred to art 10.2 of the constitution but did not elaborate on the precedence that occurred that has become an integral part of our guidelines.  As precedence automatically becomes part of the election guidelines, it is important that we address issues which come up around the election with care and unambiguously.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Can you be so kind to clarify?
> >>>>>>>> Best wishes
> >>>>>>>> Omo
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> PS:  Grateful to listers to please keep this thread confined to the subject.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 17 May 2018 at 17:17, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net <mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Dear Members and Community,
> >>>>>>>>> Mt views have been sought on the matter under reference.
> >>>>>>>>> Please find same hereunder.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 17/05/2018 14:04, B
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The Election Process and last AGMM.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The appointment of Directors is carried out during an AGMM of the Company ?Art 13.1 of the constitution.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The election of the Directors is carried out in terms of Art 13.2 of the constitution which refers expressly to the election process approved by the Board.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Moreover  Art 10.2 of the Constitution refers to precedent applied during an AFRINIC election and which de facto become part of the election guidelines.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The election process  as it stands today is the one which was applied during  the elections held during the last AGMM without any opposition.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> This is what it provides:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 9.2 Paper Ballot on Election Day
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The voting conducted during the Annual General Members' Meeting is carried out via paper ballots containing a list of candidate names and a ballot number. Prior to the vote, all members present or participants holding a proxy will be requested to register and validate their membership status.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> *
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> *
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> * Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region. Each mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than one mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be counted.
> >>>>>>>>> * The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").
> >>>>>>>>> * This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any personal data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be counted as spoilt.
> >>>>>>>>> * Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners.
> >>>>>>>>> * In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for that position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until there is a winner.
> >>>>>>>>> * All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The last amendment of the election guidelines introduced the voting option ? None of the Above?. ?(Vide second bullet point above.)Those voters who have cast their votes for ? None of the Above? have done so in compliance with the prevailing  constitution  and these are thus valid votes. Every voter was aware of the new option.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The election guidelines are clear as to what happens when the ? None of the Above? option has a majority.- (Vide last bullet point above.)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The election guidelines must be read as a whole and all the provisions read together.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Legal Counsel ?AFRINIC
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 17.05.2018
> >>>>>>>>> oubakar Barry wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Hello Board and Legal Counsel,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Good that Omo spotted this.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> It?s a matter of applying the board election process adopted by the board according to section 13.2 of the bylaws.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process <https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process> describes the process and section 9 spells out how to interpret the results in the case there are more than one candidate and in the case there is only one candidate. These two cases are addressed separately and differently.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> It?s important to hear from the Board and the Legal Counsel, as the elections can be challenged.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Please advise.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Regards.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Boubakar
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net <mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> Greetings All,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I am looking at the BoD election process and it seems to me that the recent e-mail from the Board Chair seeking nominations for vacant seats should not be extended to Western Africa.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The particular clause I am referring to is in 9.2 - https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process <https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> *
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners
> >>>>>>>>>>> I see from the list for West Africa that the candidate with the highest number of votes should have been declared winner and this is Dr Ousmane Tessa.  (btw, Dr Adewale Adedokun needs his name spelt correctly)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Western Africa - Seat 2
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Dr Adelawe Abedekon - 43
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Dr Ousmane Moussa Tessa - 56
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> None of the above - 78
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Result: The seat is vacant
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The results from the other regions are valid and supported by the following clause as they had one candidate.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> *
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> * All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Can AfriNIC and the nomcom please clarify?   We should not deprive Dr Tessa of a rightful win ?. especially in the circumstances we find ourselves.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Omo
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ Members-Discuss mailing list Members-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Members-Discuss at afrinic.net> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
> >>>>>>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> >>>>>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
> >>>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> >>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
> >>
> >> -- Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za> Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA:https://ftth.posix.co.za <https://ftth.posix.co.za/>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
> > ,
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Community-Discuss mailing list
> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
> _______________________________________________
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From alan.barrett at afrinic.net  Sat Jun  9 05:34:39 2018
From: alan.barrett at afrinic.net (Alan Barrett)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 09:34:39 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for
	Western	Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR0602MB3603CB606485AE0881F92AC8B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
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 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <E9C0F8CF-F24B-4DEE-9070-5F43C21419EA@afrinic.net>



> On 9 Jun 2018, at 01:27, Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> If "none of the above" votes were counted to determine the winner, they should have been published.

I am inclined to agree.  We can avoid that mistake in future.

> For GC election in 2017, there was only one candidate; " none of the above" or "against"  votes  were  not even counted  and I wonder how the winner was determined.

You can see in the video of the announcement of the results of the 2017 Governance Committee that 100 votes were cast, and all the votes went to the only candidate.  See the first 40 seconds of the video at <https://youtu.be/HSJCRrKoOgs>.  This obviously means that zero votes went to ?None of the above?.  I don?t know how you jump from that to ?votes were not even counted? or ?I wonder how the winner was determined?.

Alan Barrett




From mangawilly at gmail.com  Sun Jun 10 16:21:18 2018
From: mangawilly at gmail.com (Willy MANGA)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 17:21:18 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Universities involvement within AFRINIC (and
	Internet ecosystem)
Message-ID: <bede50a8-b077-2014-a5da-074ec4f4f842@gmail.com>

Hello dear community,
first of all thank you chairman for the publication of the 2016-2020
strategic plan.

In 2009 - 2013 strategic plan there were two items related to universities :

1. Develop long term relation with academic institutions

2. research and development in collaboration with academic institutions.

They were not achieved unfortunately.

While it's a little far away from today, is it possible to know what
were the issues ?

In this regard, in the current strategic plan on the page related to
AFRINIC market segment (P. 30), no challenges have been identified
concerning universities.

I believe universities (through REN sometimes) should be more involved
in the Internet ecosystem:
 * research and development
 * capacity building
 * ....

From my point of view, it should be a win-win relation but we (the
community) have to attract them and let them understand their role in
the ecosystem.
On the other side I know that universities have A LOT of internal
challenges but with a lot of commitments they can address the various
issues.


Best regards,

-- 
Willy Manga
@ongolaboy
https://ongola.blogspot.com/

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From christianbope at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 18:55:54 2018
From: christianbope at gmail.com (Bope Christian)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 20:55:54 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC
	AGMM Elections
Message-ID: <2C820D8F-D674-4000-8115-A5D2D95FF1B9@gmail.com>

Dear AFRINIC Members and Community,

There has been much discussion about the results of the elections held during the AGMM on 10 May 2018, and associated processes.

I will try to answer these questions:

What is the election process?
What happened in previous years?
What happened in 2018?
What does the election process says about the ?None of the above? option?
How should the result be interpreted when ?None of the above? receives the most votes?
Does AFRINIC have an election appeal process?
Should the result stand as previously announced?
What are the future actions?

## What is the Election Process?

The Election Process (sometimes called the election guidelines) is approved by the Board in terms of the Bylaws article 13.2:

13.2.	The election of the Directors of the company shall be carried out in line with the Election process approved by the Board.

The current Election Process was revised and approved by the Board in 2014 (Resolutions 201404.196 and 201411.218), and is published at <https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process <https://afrinic.n/>>.
Under section 9.2, the following bullet points appear (the bullet numbers are not in the original):

[1] ?	Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region. Each mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than one mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be counted.

[2] ?	The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").

[3] ?	This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any personal data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be counted as spoilt.

[4] ?	Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners.

[5] ?	In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for that position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until there is a winner.

[6] ?	All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.

## What happened in previous years?

The option to vote for ?None of the above? has appeared on AFRINIC Board election ballots every year since 2013. In 2017, the final computed results contained scores for the ?None of the above? option. Since those scores did not make ?none of the above? the winner, they were not mentioned in the announcement of results published at <https://afrinic.net/en/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election <https://afrinic.net/en/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>>

## What happened in 2018?

Three AFRINIC Board seats were up for election at the AGMM on 10 May 2018.  For all three seats, ?None of the above? received the most votes, and as a consequence, the seats have remained vacant for the time being.  This was the first time that ?None of the above? received the most votes for any Board seat.  The result was announced during the AGMM and later published at  < https://afrinic.net/en/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections >

## What does the election process say about the ?None of the above? option?

Bullet point 2 in the election process specifies that ?None of the above? should appear as a choice for all seats, not only for seats where there is only one candidate.

Bullet point 4 in the election process specifies that the candidate with the highest number of votes will be the winner.  However, it is silent about what happens if the highest number of votes goes to ?None of the above? instead of a candidate.

Bullet point 6 in the election process specifies what happens when ?None of the above? gets the highest number of votes in an election with only one candidate, but is silent about seats with multiple candidates.

In summary, the election process is clear about what happens in an election with one candidate when ?None of the above? wins, but is silent about what happens in an election with more than one candidate when ?None of the above? wins.

## How should the result be interpreted when ?None of the above? receives the most votes?

It is a widely-accepted principle that, if a written process is silent on some point, then the intent should be considered.

The intended meaning of the ?None of the above? option is clear in the case of an election with only one candidate: bullet point 6 states that, if ?None of the above? gets the most votes, then the seat remains vacant.

In an election with multiple candidates, we have already seen that bullet point 2 requires a ?None of the above? option, but it is silent about what happens if that option receives the most votes.  Some people have argued that the seat should remain vacant (pointing to the intent behind bullet point 6), and some have argued that the winner should be the candidate other than ?None of the above? who received the most votes (pointing to the text of bullet point 4).

The fact that bullet point 2 explicitly requires a ?None of the above? option for all seats, suggests that the intention was for ?None of the above? to have a meaning different from an abstention.  After all, if voting for ?None of the above? was intended to have the same meaning as an abstention, then there would be no need for a ?None of the above? option on the ballot, and voters could simply abstain from voting for that seat.

## Does AFRINIC have an election appeal process?

There isn?t any documented process for appealing the result of an AFRINIC Board election. The committee handling the election (Nomination committee and Election committee) should make sure that the election guideline is explain clearly to members before the process start in order to avoid misinterpretation

## Should the result stand as previously announced?

The Board recognises the objections that were raised a few days after the election, on Wednesday 16 May 2018, but notes that no objections were raised on the day of the election, Thursday 10 May 2018.  The Board has decided that the results stand as they were announced immediately after the votes were counted.  That means that the affected seats remain vacant for the time being.

## What are the future actions?

The Board recognises that the process does not make it clear what happens when ?None of the above? receives the most votes in an election with multiple candidates.  The Board would like to encourage the committee handling the election in future to ensure that members understand the election guidelines before voting starts. Furthermore, the Board intends to review the election process for future elections which will include a public consultation. The Board will also consider an appeal process during the review of the guideline

The Board intends to fill the vacant seats in terms of the Bylaws article 13.14.  To this end, the Board has called for expressions of interest; see <https://www.afrinic.net/en/news/2395-filling-of-the-casual-vacancies <https://www.afrinic.net/en/news/2395->>.  The seats to be filled are the three seats that were included in the election on 10 May 2018, and a fourth seat that was not included in that election.


Best Regards,
Christian D. Bope, Ph.D
Chairman, AFRINIC Board



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From madomey at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 11 20:08:40 2018
From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 20:08:40 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result
	for	Western	Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <E9C0F8CF-F24B-4DEE-9070-5F43C21419EA@afrinic.net>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603D94F2DDB07C581775A2BB9610@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603ED46AB5E0A109B734281B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <460991528450057@web26o.yandex.ru>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603CB606485AE0881F92AC8B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>,
 <E9C0F8CF-F24B-4DEE-9070-5F43C21419EA@afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <AM0PR0602MB360354CD046535BD13445A80B9780@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Dear CEO,

"All the votes went to the only candidate"; how can you assert that if "none of above" votes were not casted and  published?  "none of above" was simply ignored for the GC election in 2017 in clear violation of the guidelines.
"none of the above " was ignored  where it was supposed to  be considered.

Furthermore, at 1:38 and 12:14, NomCom Chair counted "none of above" votes as "invalid" votes for board election.

All seems to concur to the facts that officers not on top of  affairs leading to issues.

Ilegality, irrationality  and procedural failure  are  making afrinic set bad precedences.

Thanks



Marcus

________________________________
From: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2018 5:34:39 AM
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections



> On 9 Jun 2018, at 01:27, Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> If "none of the above" votes were counted to determine the winner, they should have been published.

I am inclined to agree.  We can avoid that mistake in future.

> For GC election in 2017, there was only one candidate; " none of the above" or "against"  votes  were  not even counted  and I wonder how the winner was determined.

You can see in the video of the announcement of the results of the 2017 Governance Committee that 100 votes were cast, and all the votes went to the only candidate.  See the first 40 seconds of the video at <https://youtu.be/HSJCRrKoOgs>.  This obviously means that zero votes went to ?None of the above?.  I don?t know how you jump from that to ?votes were not even counted? or ?I wonder how the winner was determined?.

Alan Barrett


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
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From funga.roho at yandex.com  Tue Jun 12 11:24:51 2018
From: funga.roho at yandex.com (Kangamutima zabika Christophe)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 12:24:51 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Community-Discuss Digest, Vol 338, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1528718402.31858.community-discuss@afrinic.net>
References: <mailman.3.1528718402.31858.community-discuss@afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <4728921528802691@web19j.yandex.ru>

https://web.facebook.com/140677722781191/posts/957549951093960/?_rdc=1&_rdr
https://www.auf.org/nouvelles/actualites/lauf-fondation-orange-ouvrent-fablab-solidaire-a-kinshasa/

11.06.2018, 13:00, "community-discuss-request at afrinic.net" <community-discuss-request at afrinic.net>:
> Send Community-Discuss mailing list submissions to
> ????????community-discuss at afrinic.net
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> ????????https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> ????????community-discuss-request at afrinic.net
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> ????????community-discuss-owner at afrinic.net
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Community-Discuss digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> ???1. Universities involvement within AFRINIC (and Internet
> ??????ecosystem) (Willy MANGA)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 17:21:18 +0100
> From: Willy MANGA <mangawilly at gmail.com>
> To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
> Subject: [Community-Discuss] Universities involvement within AFRINIC
> ????????(and Internet ecosystem)
> Message-ID: <bede50a8-b077-2014-a5da-074ec4f4f842 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hello dear community,
> first of all thank you chairman for the publication of the 2016-2020
> strategic plan.
>
> In 2009 - 2013 strategic plan there were two items related to universities :
>
> 1. Develop long term relation with academic institutions
>
> 2. research and development in collaboration with academic institutions.
>
> They were not achieved unfortunately.
>
> While it's a little far away from today, is it possible to know what
> were the issues ?
>
> In this regard, in the current strategic plan on the page related to
> AFRINIC market segment (P. 30), no challenges have been identified
> concerning universities.
>
> I believe universities (through REN sometimes) should be more involved
> in the Internet ecosystem:
> ?* research and development
> ?* capacity building
> ?* ....
>
> From my point of view, it should be a win-win relation but we (the
> community) have to attract them and let them understand their role in
> the ecosystem.
> On the other side I know that universities have A LOT of internal
> challenges but with a lot of commitments they can address the various
> issues.
>
> Best regards,
>
> --
> Willy Manga
> @ongolaboy
> https://ongola.blogspot.com/
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> Type: application/pgp-signature
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Community-Discuss Digest, Vol 338, Issue 1
> *************************************************

--?
KANGAMUTIMA? ZABIKA
Contr?leur des douanes
Direction des Syst?mes et Technologies de l'Information
Direction G?n?rale des Douanes et
Accises
DRC




From sander at steffann.nl  Tue Jun 12 13:23:23 2018
From: sander at steffann.nl (Sander Steffann)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 15:23:23 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC
 AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <2C820D8F-D674-4000-8115-A5D2D95FF1B9@gmail.com>
References: <2C820D8F-D674-4000-8115-A5D2D95FF1B9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FA195EFD-4B4F-4DC1-AB5D-661B06DDD6C4@steffann.nl>

Hello,

> It is a widely-accepted principle that, if a written process is silent on some point, then the intent should be considered.

[...]

> The Board recognises the objections that were raised a few days after the election, on Wednesday 16 May 2018, but notes that no objections were raised on the day of the election, Thursday 10 May 2018.  The Board has decided that the results stand as they were announced immediately after the votes were counted.  That means that the affected seats remain vacant for the time being.

This seems to me to be the sensible thing to do.

> The Board recognises that the process does not make it clear what happens when ?None of the above? receives the most votes in an election with multiple candidates.  The Board would like to encourage the committee handling the election in future to ensure that members understand the election guidelines before voting starts. Furthermore, the Board intends to review the election process for future elections which will include a public consultation. The Board will also consider an appeal process during the review of the guideline

I think the decisions of the board in this are the right answer for the stability, openness and transparency of Afrinic. Thank you for your clarifications and summary.

Cheers,
Sander

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From dabu.sifiso at yandex.com  Tue Jun 12 16:10:03 2018
From: dabu.sifiso at yandex.com (Dabu Sifiso)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 11:10:03 -0500
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western
	Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603D94F2DDB07C581775A2BB9610@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603ED46AB5E0A109B734281B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <460991528450057@web26o.yandex.ru>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603CB606485AE0881F92AC8B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>,
 <E9C0F8CF-F24B-4DEE-9070-5F43C21419EA@afrinic.net>
 <AM0PR0602MB360354CD046535BD13445A80B9780@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <5087191528819803@web42j.yandex.ru>


Mr Adomey,

11.06.2018, 15:11, "Marcus K. G. Adomey" <madomey at hotmail.com>:
> Dear CEO,
>
> "All the votes went to the only candidate"; how can you assert that if "none of above" votes were not casted and? published?? "none of above" was simply ignored for the GC election in 2017 in clear violation of the guidelines.
> "none of the above " was ignored? where it was supposed to? be considered.
>
> Furthermore, at 1:38

https://youtu.be/HSJCRrKoOgs?t=1m35s

Sounds like he got a bit confused a bit, if we are to literally write down what he said:
"none of the above, we have no invalid on-site vote,8 none of the above online"

It does sounds like there was simply no on-site vote for none of the above.

He also calls the none of the above as invalid votes here as well which is clearly just a mistake:
https://youtu.be/HSJCRrKoOgs?t=3m05s

It doesn't sound like a big problem.

> and 12:14, NomCom Chair counted "none of above" votes as "invalid" votes for board election.

https://youtu.be/HSJCRrKoOgs?t=12m14s

That's the end of the video.
What segment are you referring to, was it the one around 3:05?

Can you explain what are your intentions behind this repeated claim that none of the above was not counted?
No one raised objections on the spot, losing candidates accepted the results, session was adjourned.


> All seems to concur to the facts that officers not on top of? affairs leading to issues.
>
> Ilegality, irrationality? and procedural failure? are? making afrinic set bad precedences.

So all the elected directors of 2017 are illegals and must be removed!
That leaves Seun Ojedeji as the only legitimate elected director and with Alan as an appointed director.



> Thanks
>
> Marcus
>
> ----------------------------------------
> From: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>
> Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2018 5:34:39 AM
> To: General Discussions of AFRINIC
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>
>> On 9 Jun 2018, at 01:27, Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> If "none of the above" votes were counted to determine the winner, they should have been published.
>
> I am inclined to agree.? We can avoid that mistake in future.
>
>> For GC election in 2017, there was only one candidate; " none of the above" or "against"? votes? were? not even counted? and I wonder how the winner was determined.
>
> You can see in the video of the announcement of the results of the 2017 Governance Committee that 100 votes were cast, and all the votes went to the only candidate.? See the first 40 seconds of the video at <https://youtu.be/HSJCRrKoOgs>.? This obviously means that zero votes went to ?None of the above?.? I don?t know how you jump from that to ?votes were not even counted? or ?I wonder how the winner was determined?.
>
> Alan Barrett
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> ,
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss



From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Tue Jun 12 16:40:56 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 16:40:56 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for
	Western	Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <5087191528819803@web42j.yandex.ru>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603D94F2DDB07C581775A2BB9610@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603ED46AB5E0A109B734281B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <460991528450057@web26o.yandex.ru>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603CB606485AE0881F92AC8B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>,
 <E9C0F8CF-F24B-4DEE-9070-5F43C21419EA@afrinic.net>
 <AM0PR0602MB360354CD046535BD13445A80B9780@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>,
 <5087191528819803@web42j.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB25700D939B02D2757251FF92EE7F0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

>> All seems to concur to the facts that
>>officers not on top of  affairs leading to
>>issues.
>>
>> Ilegality, irrationality  and procedural failure
>>are  making afrinic set bad precedences.

>So all the elected directors of 2017 are illegals
>and must be removed!
>That leaves Seun Ojedeji as the only
>legitimate elected director and with Alan as
>an appointed director.

Which in turn would eliminate the ability of the board to get quorum at all even for meetings - and eliminate the ability to call the required sgmm to fix anything - including eliminating the quorum to appoint new directors.

Basically if we follow the logic from Markus - Afrinic effectively is at an end - and we close the doors and all go off to other RIRs or something.

Not entirely sure this line of logic is actually even vaguely logical - If it is - could someone educate me on this new and profound form of mental gymnastics that lead to such giant leaps of intution?

Thanks

Andrew


> Thanks
>
> Marcus
>
> ----------------------------------------
> From: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>
> Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2018 5:34:39 AM
> To: General Discussions of AFRINIC
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>
>> On 9 Jun 2018, at 01:27, Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> If "none of the above" votes were counted to determine the winner, they should have been published.
>
> I am inclined to agree.  We can avoid that mistake in future.
>
>> For GC election in 2017, there was only one candidate; " none of the above" or "against"  votes  were  not even counted  and I wonder how the winner was determined.
>
> You can see in the video of the announcement of the results of the 2017 Governance Committee that 100 votes were cast, and all the votes went to the only candidate.  See the first 40 seconds of the video at <https://youtu.be/HSJCRrKoOgs<https://youtu.be/HSJCRrKoOgs>>.  This obviously means that zero votes went to ?None of the above?.  I don?t know how you jump from that to ?votes were not even counted? or ?I wonder how the winner was determined?.
>
> Alan Barrett
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
> ,
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

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From faithafia at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 18:24:58 2018
From: faithafia at gmail.com (afia faith)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 18:24:58 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] 1. Universities involvement within AFRINIC
	(and Internet ecosystem)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1528804802.5918.community-discuss@afrinic.net>
References: <mailman.3.1528804802.5918.community-discuss@afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <CAAp+Vo07qPiWYwAk3BJCpm7wQB+Mwt-Hgr=A+j1jyvc6nfVxqA@mail.gmail.com>

 Hello community,
Please I just need more clarifications on the Universities involvement
within AFRINIC (and Internet ecosystem)

1..What are the issues that made the two items related to universities non
achieved in 2009-2013 strategic plan?
2.. Have these issues been solved in
2016-2020 strategic plan?

Regards
Afi Edoh
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 12:00 PM <community-discuss-request at afrinic.net>
wrote:

> Send Community-Discuss mailing list submissions to
>         community-discuss at afrinic.net
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         community-discuss-request at afrinic.net
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         community-discuss-owner at afrinic.net
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Community-Discuss digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC       AGMM Elections
>       (Bope Christian)
>    2. Re: [members-discuss] Faulty result       for     Western Africa in
>       AfriNIC AGMM Elections (Marcus K. G. Adomey)
>    3. Re: Community-Discuss Digest, Vol 338, Issue 1
>       (Kangamutima zabika Christophe)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 20:55:54 +0200
> From: Bope Christian <christianbope at gmail.com>
> To: community-discuss at afrinic.net
> Subject: [Community-Discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in
>         AfriNIC AGMM Elections
> Message-ID: <2C820D8F-D674-4000-8115-A5D2D95FF1B9 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear AFRINIC Members and Community,
>
> There has been much discussion about the results of the elections held
> during the AGMM on 10 May 2018, and associated processes.
>
> I will try to answer these questions:
>
> What is the election process?
> What happened in previous years?
> What happened in 2018?
> What does the election process says about the ?None of the above? option?
> How should the result be interpreted when ?None of the above? receives the
> most votes?
> Does AFRINIC have an election appeal process?
> Should the result stand as previously announced?
> What are the future actions?
>
> ## What is the Election Process?
>
> The Election Process (sometimes called the election guidelines) is
> approved by the Board in terms of the Bylaws article 13.2:
>
> 13.2.   The election of the Directors of the company shall be carried out
> in line with the Election process approved by the Board.
>
> The current Election Process was revised and approved by the Board in 2014
> (Resolutions 201404.196 and 201411.218), and is published at <
> https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process <
> https://afrinic.n/>>.
> Under section 9.2, the following bullet points appear (the bullet numbers
> are not in the original):
>
> [1] ?   Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region.
> Each mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than
> one mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be counted.
>
> [2] ?   The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote
> for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").
>
> [3] ?   This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any
> personal data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be
> counted as spoilt.
>
> [4] ?   Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy
> present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest
> number of votes in each category will be declared winners.
>
> [5] ?   In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for that
> position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until there
> is a winner.
>
> [6] ?   All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if
> there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the
> above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be
> considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of
> the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.
>
> ## What happened in previous years?
>
> The option to vote for ?None of the above? has appeared on AFRINIC Board
> election ballots every year since 2013. In 2017, the final computed results
> contained scores for the ?None of the above? option. Since those scores did
> not make ?none of the above? the winner, they were not mentioned in the
> announcement of results published at <
> https://afrinic.net/en/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election <
> https://afrinic.net/en/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>>
>
> ## What happened in 2018?
>
> Three AFRINIC Board seats were up for election at the AGMM on 10 May
> 2018.  For all three seats, ?None of the above? received the most votes,
> and as a consequence, the seats have remained vacant for the time being.
> This was the first time that ?None of the above? received the most votes
> for any Board seat.  The result was announced during the AGMM and later
> published at  <
> https://afrinic.net/en/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections >
>
> ## What does the election process say about the ?None of the above? option?
>
> Bullet point 2 in the election process specifies that ?None of the above?
> should appear as a choice for all seats, not only for seats where there is
> only one candidate.
>
> Bullet point 4 in the election process specifies that the candidate with
> the highest number of votes will be the winner.  However, it is silent
> about what happens if the highest number of votes goes to ?None of the
> above? instead of a candidate.
>
> Bullet point 6 in the election process specifies what happens when ?None
> of the above? gets the highest number of votes in an election with only one
> candidate, but is silent about seats with multiple candidates.
>
> In summary, the election process is clear about what happens in an
> election with one candidate when ?None of the above? wins, but is silent
> about what happens in an election with more than one candidate when ?None
> of the above? wins.
>
> ## How should the result be interpreted when ?None of the above? receives
> the most votes?
>
> It is a widely-accepted principle that, if a written process is silent on
> some point, then the intent should be considered.
>
> The intended meaning of the ?None of the above? option is clear in the
> case of an election with only one candidate: bullet point 6 states that, if
> ?None of the above? gets the most votes, then the seat remains vacant.
>
> In an election with multiple candidates, we have already seen that bullet
> point 2 requires a ?None of the above? option, but it is silent about what
> happens if that option receives the most votes.  Some people have argued
> that the seat should remain vacant (pointing to the intent behind bullet
> point 6), and some have argued that the winner should be the candidate
> other than ?None of the above? who received the most votes (pointing to the
> text of bullet point 4).
>
> The fact that bullet point 2 explicitly requires a ?None of the above?
> option for all seats, suggests that the intention was for ?None of the
> above? to have a meaning different from an abstention.  After all, if
> voting for ?None of the above? was intended to have the same meaning as an
> abstention, then there would be no need for a ?None of the above? option on
> the ballot, and voters could simply abstain from voting for that seat.
>
> ## Does AFRINIC have an election appeal process?
>
> There isn?t any documented process for appealing the result of an AFRINIC
> Board election. The committee handling the election (Nomination committee
> and Election committee) should make sure that the election guideline is
> explain clearly to members before the process start in order to avoid
> misinterpretation
>
> ## Should the result stand as previously announced?
>
> The Board recognises the objections that were raised a few days after the
> election, on Wednesday 16 May 2018, but notes that no objections were
> raised on the day of the election, Thursday 10 May 2018.  The Board has
> decided that the results stand as they were announced immediately after the
> votes were counted.  That means that the affected seats remain vacant for
> the time being.
>
> ## What are the future actions?
>
> The Board recognises that the process does not make it clear what happens
> when ?None of the above? receives the most votes in an election with
> multiple candidates.  The Board would like to encourage the committee
> handling the election in future to ensure that members understand the
> election guidelines before voting starts. Furthermore, the Board intends to
> review the election process for future elections which will include a
> public consultation. The Board will also consider an appeal process during
> the review of the guideline
>
> The Board intends to fill the vacant seats in terms of the Bylaws article
> 13.14.  To this end, the Board has called for expressions of interest; see <
> https://www.afrinic.net/en/news/2395-filling-of-the-casual-vacancies <
> https://www.afrinic.net/en/news/2395->>.  The seats to be filled are the
> three seats that were included in the election on 10 May 2018, and a fourth
> seat that was not included in that election.
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Christian D. Bope, Ph.D
> Chairman, AFRINIC Board
>
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 20:08:40 +0000
> From: "Marcus K. G. Adomey" <madomey at hotmail.com>
> To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>,
>         "Alan Barrett" <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result        for
>         Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
> Message-ID:
>         <
> AM0PR0602MB360354CD046535BD13445A80B9780 at AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Dear CEO,
>
> "All the votes went to the only candidate"; how can you assert that if
> "none of above" votes were not casted and  published?  "none of above" was
> simply ignored for the GC election in 2017 in clear violation of the
> guidelines.
> "none of the above " was ignored  where it was supposed to  be considered.
>
> Furthermore, at 1:38 and 12:14, NomCom Chair counted "none of above" votes
> as "invalid" votes for board election.
>
> All seems to concur to the facts that officers not on top of  affairs
> leading to issues.
>
> Ilegality, irrationality  and procedural failure  are  making afrinic set
> bad precedences.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>
> Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2018 5:34:39 AM
> To: General Discussions of AFRINIC
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for
> Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
>
>
>
> > On 9 Jun 2018, at 01:27, Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > If "none of the above" votes were counted to determine the winner, they
> should have been published.
>
> I am inclined to agree.  We can avoid that mistake in future.
>
> > For GC election in 2017, there was only one candidate; " none of the
> above" or "against"  votes  were  not even counted  and I wonder how the
> winner was determined.
>
> You can see in the video of the announcement of the results of the 2017
> Governance Committee that 100 votes were cast, and all the votes went to
> the only candidate.  See the first 40 seconds of the video at <
> https://youtu.be/HSJCRrKoOgs>.  This obviously means that zero votes went
> to ?None of the above?.  I don?t know how you jump from that to ?votes were
> not even counted? or ?I wonder how the winner was determined?.
>
> Alan Barrett
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 12:24:51 +0100
> From: Kangamutima zabika Christophe <funga.roho at yandex.com>
> To: "community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Community-Discuss Digest, Vol 338,
>         Issue 1
> Message-ID: <4728921528802691 at web19j.yandex.ru>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> https://web.facebook.com/140677722781191/posts/957549951093960/?_rdc=1&_rdr
>
> https://www.auf.org/nouvelles/actualites/lauf-fondation-orange-ouvrent-fablab-solidaire-a-kinshasa/
>
> 11.06.2018, 13:00, "community-discuss-request at afrinic.net" <
> community-discuss-request at afrinic.net>:
> > Send Community-Discuss mailing list submissions to
> > ????????community-discuss at afrinic.net
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > ????????https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > ????????community-discuss-request at afrinic.net
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > ????????community-discuss-owner at afrinic.net
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Community-Discuss digest..."
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > ???1. Universities involvement within AFRINIC (and Internet
> > ??????ecosystem) (Willy MANGA)
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 17:21:18 +0100
> > From: Willy MANGA <mangawilly at gmail.com>
> > To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
> > Subject: [Community-Discuss] Universities involvement within AFRINIC
> > ????????(and Internet ecosystem)
> > Message-ID: <bede50a8-b077-2014-a5da-074ec4f4f842 at gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Hello dear community,
> > first of all thank you chairman for the publication of the 2016-2020
> > strategic plan.
> >
> > In 2009 - 2013 strategic plan there were two items related to
> universities :
> >
> > 1. Develop long term relation with academic institutions
> >
> > 2. research and development in collaboration with academic institutions.
> >
> > They were not achieved unfortunately.
> >
> > While it's a little far away from today, is it possible to know what
> > were the issues ?
> >
> > In this regard, in the current strategic plan on the page related to
> > AFRINIC market segment (P. 30), no challenges have been identified
> > concerning universities.
> >
> > I believe universities (through REN sometimes) should be more involved
> > in the Internet ecosystem:
> > ?* research and development
> > ?* capacity building
> > ?* ....
> >
> > From my point of view, it should be a win-win relation but we (the
> > community) have to attract them and let them understand their role in
> > the ecosystem.
> > On the other side I know that universities have A LOT of internal
> > challenges but with a lot of commitments they can address the various
> > issues.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > --
> > Willy Manga
> > @ongolaboy
> > https://ongola.blogspot.com/
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Community-Discuss mailing list
> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Community-Discuss Digest, Vol 338, Issue 1
> > *************************************************
>
> --?
> KANGAMUTIMA? ZABIKA
> Contr?leur des douanes
> Direction des Syst?mes et Technologies de l'Information
> Direction G?n?rale des Douanes et
> Accises
> DRC
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Community-Discuss Digest, Vol 339, Issue 1
> *************************************************
>
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From madomey at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 12 21:37:54 2018
From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 21:37:54 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC legal was ( [members-discuss] Faulty
 result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections)
In-Reply-To: <3daa58a0-0f6a-0d75-39fd-a290f818929f@afrinic.net>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
 <CAGDMR_f-yYR6UxohpYL01aWWT2kyADDs22XK52h+u8Dmw-FOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603D94F2DDB07C581775A2BB9610@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603ED46AB5E0A109B734281B97B0@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAD4W+iOA6ea+tXOZKLsiazUa3YxxE_4s2=d5kCLyQ26VR+goVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB257090A8015E428F03F7C861EE7B0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>,
 <3daa58a0-0f6a-0d75-39fd-a290f818929f@afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0602MB36095BF16EAAD62D660D8D92B97F0@HE1PR0602MB3609.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Legal Counsel,


Second  opinion is always good when clearing disputes and to show confidence in a system. You playing judge and party  is awkward. All the disputed issues are from actions and decisions  supervised  by you. it is more appropriate  for you to recommend that they are resolved  otherwise.


We expect from  AFRINIC  legal counsel  to make sure, processes, guidelines are unambiguous, strictly followed and the appropriate  dispute resolution mechanisms are in place  and tell the board the right thing to do  in case of dispute.


By the way, how often does AFRINIC  change its legal counsel?

Thanks



Marcus




________________________________
From: Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net>
Sent: Friday, June 8, 2018 11:53:36 AM
To: Andrew Alston; DANIEL NANGHAKA; Marcus K. G. Adomey
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections

Dear All,
I am the legal adviser of the company AFRINIC Ltd. Hence for me to act in one way or the other
I need to get instructions from the company.As presently advised I have not received any instructions
to seize the court for adjudicating on the matter.
 For the record,I have already communicated my views to the community on this matter ( vide my mail dated 17.05.2018).If any party wishes to challenge these views, they are free
to take same to court. Obviously it cannot be me.
Regards
Legal Counsel-AFRINIC.

On 08/06/2018 13:30, Andrew Alston wrote:
The answer to that is simple,

For something to be sorted in a court of law ? someone has to take it to court.

Since the people who members of this community claim were disenfranchised by the vote have not taken it to court ? and since there are many ? who include the AFRINIC legal council based on his previous statements, who believe that the correct actions were taken ? how is it going to be sorted in a court?

If someone wishes to approach the Mauritian courts to adjudicate this ? let them do so ? but that requires someone willing to spend the money and resources to do that ? and right now ? I see a lot of people whining ? but I don?t see anyone willing to dedicate the resources to doing that ? and for AFRINIC to approach the court ? when they have already stated clearly how they view the situation ? would be equivalent to litigating against themselves.  I hardly see that happening

Andrew


From: DANIEL NANGHAKA [mailto:dndannang at gmail.com]
Sent: 08 June 2018 12:16
To: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com><mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net><mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net><mailto:members-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections

Why can't this issue be sorted in court?
Don't we have a legal counsel?

On Fri, Jun 8, 2018, 11:36 AM Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com<mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>> wrote:
Dear CEO and Legal Counsel,


I wrote asking for some clarification which should come from your offices. Up to now I have not received any response. I would be most grateful if you could spare some few minutes from your heavy schedule to do justice to my questions?


Thanks


Marcus

________________________________
From: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com<mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 10:32:18 AM
To: mje at posix.co.za<mailto:mje at posix.co.za>; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss; Ornella GANKPA
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections

Hello,
Thanks Ornella and others who has been actively participating in this discussion to help clear this issue once for good.
Can someone explains to me why  ?none of the above?  votes were not counted for  2017 elections  as it  was done for election 2018 ?
https<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>://<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>www.afrinic.net<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>  - 2017
https<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections>://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections> - 2018



Marcus


________________________________
From: Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com<mailto:honest1989 at gmail.com>>
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 5:34:13 PM
To: mje at posix.co.za<mailto:mje at posix.co.za>; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections


Hi Mark

My comments inline

Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit :



On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
Owen,

2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com<mailto:owen at delong.com>>:
Arnaud,

While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that there is some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY not have been a legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go changing the rules of the election and violating the expectations of the voters, membership, and community after the election has run.

Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been made; let's fix it!>>

And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope of this discussion?  This is a matter of concern for the community at large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,  it is time to listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?






Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above on the ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.

No one is raising objection even now on  this option being on the ballot as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the correct implementation  of the guidelines as written.


Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the above to change the result among the remaining two candidates, it is not legitimate to simply discard the none of the above votes and declare one of those candidates a winner. Indeed, I would argue that is the worst possible choice among all other options.

The other options as I see it are:

1. Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board member until the
next AGMM.

2. Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which case it should be
considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from appointing
anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.


3. Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for seat 2 and preclude
the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to appoint seats 5
and 6.

As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the organization to proceed with a full board until the next AGMM where a hopefully more effective election can be accomplished.

I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the CEO. (The 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s vacancy, and the CEO).

The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying treating the election of ?none of the above? differently in this circumstance than in the case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases, more voters felt that they didn?t want any of the options on the ballot and voted not to elect any fo the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless of the number of candidates and should be handled identically.

Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on ballot and has not effect on the results

What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None of the above" with "Abstain" ?
The guidelines  say:
"The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
It does not say to "reject all  the proposed candidate".
It says to not vote  for any candidate and the guidelines states that , the candidate with the highest votes wins.
Let us stop  this harmful interpretation.




and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the elections rules. In the current  situation,  the guidelines are clear  and explicit  on how we should  handle the results. So let follow it and engage on discussions  for amending the rules  if we see need to do so.

I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none of the above". Why does this seem so hard to grasp?
Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other document   which support your statement?  Some seems to refuse to read the guidelines  and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your statement.


I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one natural person on the list but not fine when there is more than one natural person on the list.
One explanation:
When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . I need a way to count the "no" vote.
a- change the ballot to  "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
b- use  natural candidate and " none of the above"
We were  using b)








Hopefully additional clarity can be achieved prior to the next election and we won?t have to face this issue again. Personally, I like the idea of having ?none of the above? as an option in all cases.

Clarity and fairness is the outcome of the complaint regarding seat 2 here imho; for the rest we can agree to disagree.

I agree to agree with Owen.




Owen

Thanks


On May 29, 2018, at 14:56 , Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com<mailto:amelnaud at gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Ashok as a lawyer you know that there is the law and spirit of the law, please read bellow

2018-05-25 11:18 GMT+00:00 Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net<mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>>:
Dear All,
I apologize for having  missed your rejoinder to my mail.

Despite the delays, we appreciate your response as the matter is of great concern.

Your first question regards the reason as to why the same principle has been applied to the election for Seat 2
notwithstanding the fact that there were two candidates.
My response is that an election cannot be run on different principles. In this particular election the option "none of the above " was
introduced for the first time and everyone was aware of this and it applied to all the elections held on that day. The Election guidelines were amended to acomodate this option.

Yes indeed and the elections guidelines explicitely addressed the case of only a single candidate running for election and the option " none of the above" in this case got more votes than the sole candidate but is very silent in the case of multiple candidates running for elections with the option "none of the above" getting more votes.

Anytime elections involve the option "none of the above", there are always clear rules on how the results are interpreted and the actions that must be taken when the option "none of the above" get more votes than the multiple candidates.

It's not my intention to teach you something here, but it does look very bizarre that the legal counsel never bothered to help the board to make  the guidelines unambiguous  and conform to members expectations.

Consequently this option has to be taken in consideration when finalising the results.
Where there were two candidates. The options for voters were (1) yes for candidate (1)-((2) yes for candidate 2-(3) yes for non of the above.Each one is mutually exclusive.
Each score to be counted separately. The majority for either option wins the day.

Following  your reasoning above and the guidelines which say the candidate with the highest votes win, the members and community should then accept "none of the above" as the elected candidate and seated although "none of the above " did not go through Nomcom and was not listed on the candidates slates  published by Nomcom.

Which means seat 2 should not be declared vacant to be filled by board.

Filling  seat 2 by board would constitute the violation of "none  of the above" rights and of our rules and thus expose us to legal litigation.


One should not create a fictitious majority by adding votes polled by (1) & (2) together. The real majority was to all intents and purposes the option which polled the most votes. There is no need to extrapolate or interpret.

There is No fictitious majority being created. It was just an example of how this case could have been interpreted just like you do have your own interpretation.

In many cases,  abstention is compared to voters in order to decide how to proceed with  validating an election and counting results..


Where there was one candidate there were two options- Yes for the single candidate or yes for  "non of the above"

The case of a sole candidate is clear as per the guidelines and there are no objections on seat 5 and 6 results.

My reference to Art 10.2 was based on the decision of the members present at  past AGMMs to have the option of rejecting a single candidate or to give their approval to the single candidate, This has occurred more than once.

And once again,  the case of a single candidate is handled as members agreed to and not debated

Thank you


Legal Counsel AFRINIC.

On 24/05/2018 21:11, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
Dear CEO and Chairman

It looks like the Legal counsel has not  responded to this query bellow   regarding this very important issue about the recently concluded elections.

Could you kindly remind him?

Let us address this to a good conclusion in order to enforce the respect of our rules and processes.

Regards

Arnaud
Le sam. 19 mai 2018 11:40, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net<mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> a ?crit :
Dear Legal Counsel,

Thanks for your input.  Much appreciated.

Your statements reinforce the interpretation of section 9.2 of the guidelines with the origin of the "none of the above" option in the election process and how votes for this option are considered in the case of one candidate running for election for a seat. [Last bullet point]

Case in which the election becomes a "yes" or "no"  vote for the only candidate.   This point is clear and accepted and the objection is not for the results for seat 5 and 6.

What has not been clarified is how the same principle came to be applied for the elections for seat 2 which had two candidates running for the seat, one of whom got higher votes than the other, with the total number of members casting votes in excess of those opting out.

You also referred to art 10.2 of the constitution but did not elaborate on the precedence that occurred that has become an integral part of our guidelines.  As precedence automatically becomes part of the election guidelines, it is important that we address issues which come up around the election with care and unambiguously.

Can you be so kind to clarify?

Best wishes
Omo

PS:  Grateful to listers to please keep this thread confined to the subject.



On 17 May 2018 at 17:17, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net<mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>> wrote:
Dear Members and Community,
Mt views have been sought on the matter under reference.
Please find same hereunder.
On 17/05/2018 14:04, B

The Election Process and last AGMM.

The appointment of Directors is carried out during an AGMM of the Company ?Art 13.1 of the constitution.

The election of the Directors is carried out in terms of Art 13.2 of the constitution which refers expressly to the election process approved by the Board.

Moreover  Art 10.2 of the Constitution refers to precedent applied during an AFRINIC election and which de facto become part of the election guidelines.

The election process  as it stands today is the one which was applied during  the elections held during the last AGMM without any opposition.

This is what it provides:

9.2 Paper Ballot on Election Day

The voting conducted during the Annual General Members' Meeting is carried out via paper ballots containing a list of candidate names and a ballot number. Prior to the vote, all members present or participants holding a proxy will be requested to register and validate their membership status.

        *   Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region. Each mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than one mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be counted.
        *   The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").
        *   This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any personal data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be counted as spoilt.
        *   Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners.
        *   In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for that position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until there is a winner.
        *   All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat

The last amendment of the election guidelines introduced the voting option ? None of the Above?. ?(Vide second bullet point above.)Those voters who have cast their votes for ? None of the Above? have done so in compliance with the prevailing  constitution  and these are thus valid votes. Every voter was aware of the new option.

The election guidelines are clear as to what happens when the ? None of the Above? option has a majority.- (Vide last bullet point above.)

The election guidelines must be read as a whole and all the provisions read together.

Legal Counsel ?AFRINIC

17.05.2018
oubakar Barry wrote:

Hello Board and Legal Counsel,

Good that Omo spotted this.

It?s a matter of applying the board election process adopted by the board according to section 13.2 of the bylaws.

https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process describes the process and section 9 spells out how to interpret the results in the case there are more than one candidate and in the case there is only one candidate. These two cases are addressed separately and differently.

It?s important to hear from the Board and the Legal Counsel, as the elections can be challenged.

Please advise.

Regards.

Boubakar

On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net<mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> wrote:
Greetings All,

I am looking at the BoD election process and it seems to me that the recent e-mail from the Board Chair seeking nominations for vacant seats should not be extended to Western Africa.

The particular clause I am referring to is in 9.2 - https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process

  *
Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners
I see from the list for West Africa that the candidate with the highest number of votes should have been declared winner and this is Dr Ousmane Tessa.  (btw, Dr Adewale Adedokun needs his name spelt correctly)


Western Africa - Seat 2

Dr Adelawe Abedekon - 43

Dr Ousmane Moussa Tessa - 56

None of the above - 78

Result: The seat is vacant


The results from the other regions are valid and supported by the following clause as they had one candidate.

     *   All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.

Can AfriNIC and the nomcom please clarify?   We should not deprive Dr Tessa of a rightful win ?. especially in the circumstances we find ourselves.

Omo

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From alan.barrett at afrinic.net  Wed Jun 13 04:59:11 2018
From: alan.barrett at afrinic.net (Alan Barrett)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:59:11 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result
	for	Western	Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR0602MB360354CD046535BD13445A80B9780@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <8CB594D3-E37E-4DE9-9978-ACA8E045B05F@wacren.net>
 <CAGrBSSh8qc03+GzFLOzX-_6edVgiO1S4iUKeiYB3Yg-S43H+Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <dd22da4f-9308-0e81-85d2-f50839f5ed8f@afrinic.net>
 <CAG1eoi2ARyHcs7b0BCjhpvMv3XZpRqMz6ubPm24cR7VDu4Nyqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGDMR_cykPufKm1bg=hPFGedQ3LLFOHpGaB3Mj-0JNs4yjY=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a917fef3-c575-91fa-be3e-6d11dd3cd523@afrinic.net>
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 <DF492E41-15A4-4A83-82AA-E381A49BAE9E@delong.com>
 <CAGDMR_dnXSu3T-i4DX3T0+jbWm-n=yzrddXYuHPf+tTd70X6zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c542107b-625b-c998-bcf5-6f1e191f3aa8@posix.co.za>
 <fe5b3c05-20e3-f5f6-3697-a062947784d3@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <46918AD0-38AC-4D3F-B9BE-5854F501D649@afrinic.net>



> On 12 Jun 2018, at 00:08, Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear CEO,
> 
> "All the votes went to the only candidate"; how can you assert that if "none of above" votes were not casted and  published?  "none of above" was simply ignored for the GC election in 2017 in clear violation of the guidelines.
> "none of the above " was ignored  where it was supposed to  be considered.

?None of the above? appeared on both the paper ballots and the e-voting ballots, and the votes were counted.   The claim that the option was ignored is false, as has been explained to you before.

> Furthermore, at 1:38 and 12:14, NomCom Chair counted "none of above" votes as "invalid" votes for board election.

Yes, the NomCom chair incorrectly used the word ?invalid? when he was announcing the number of votes for ?None of the above?.  That does not change the way the votes were counted.

> All seems to concur to the facts that officers not on top of  affairs leading to issues.
> 
> Ilegality, irrationality  and procedural failure  are  making afrinic set bad precedences.

I don?t understand your point.

Alan Barrett
CEO, AFRINIC








From badru.ntege at nftconsult.com  Wed Jun 13 10:10:20 2018
From: badru.ntege at nftconsult.com (Badru Ntege)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 13:10:20 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC legal was ( [members-discuss]
 Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections)
Message-ID: <EA6BDE1E-4C81-4C96-9B64-F5102AF27EEC@nftconsult.com>

Members

 

Many things went wrong in Dakar and Many more went very well.?? 

 

As disturbing as it is I urge we look forward, learn from the history as opposed to becoming captives of our past.? ?

 

 Some of the wrongs are people related which calls for some kind of introspect and hopefully ?behavior changes for the better.

 

Some of the wrongs are policy and process related which we have full powers to fix and should now focus our energies at fixing.

 

The chair shared a fair summary of the current situation and I urge and request we close this chapter.

 

Continuing this thread is a zero-sum game which gives legitimacy to those would be distractors of AfriNIC.

 

The Election in Dakar was a minor setback in the life of AfriNIC.? 

 

Members will come and go, elections will come and go, the institution that is AfriNIC will be here to serve many more generations to come.

 

Regards

 

Badru

From: "Marcus K. G. Adomey" <madomey at hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 12:41 AM
To: Andrew Alston <andrew.alston at liquidtelecom.com>, DANIEL NANGHAKA <dndannang at gmail.com>, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC legal was ( [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections)

 

Dear Legal Counsel,

Second  opinion is always good when clearing disputes and to show confidence in a system. You playing judge and party  is awkward. All the disputed issues are from actions and decisions  supervised  by you. it is more appropriate  for you to recommend that they are resolved  otherwise.

We expect from  AFRINIC  legal counsel  to make sure, processes, guidelines are unambiguous, strictly followed and the appropriate  dispute resolution mechanisms are in place  and tell the board the right thing to do  in case of dispute.

By the way, how often does AFRINIC  change its legal counsel?

Thanks


Marcus


 

From: Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net>
Sent: Friday, June 8, 2018 11:53:36 AM
To: Andrew Alston; DANIEL NANGHAKA; Marcus K. G. Adomey
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections 

 

Dear All,
I am the legal adviser of the company AFRINIC Ltd. Hence for me to act in one way or the other
I need to get instructions from the company.As presently advised I have not received any instructions 
to seize the court for adjudicating on the matter.
 For the record,I have already communicated my views to the community on this matter ( vide my mail dated 17.05.2018).If any party wishes to challenge these views, they are free
to take same to court. Obviously it cannot be me.
Regards
Legal Counsel-AFRINIC.

On 08/06/2018 13:30, Andrew Alston wrote:

The answer to that is simple,

 

For something to be sorted in a court of law ? someone has to take it to court. 

 

Since the people who members of this community claim were disenfranchised by the vote have not taken it to court ? and since there are many ? who include the AFRINIC legal council based on his previous statements, who believe that the correct actions were taken ? how is it going to be sorted in a court?

 

If someone wishes to approach the Mauritian courts to adjudicate this ? let them do so ? but that requires someone willing to spend the money and resources to do that ? and right now ? I see a lot of people whining ? but I don?t see anyone willing to dedicate the resources to doing that ? and for AFRINIC to approach the court ? when they have already stated clearly how they view the situation ? would be equivalent to litigating against themselves.  I hardly see that happening

 

Andrew

 

 

From: DANIEL NANGHAKA [mailto:dndannang at gmail.com] 
Sent: 08 June 2018 12:16
To: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections

 

Why can't this issue be sorted in court?

Don't we have a legal counsel?

 

On Fri, Jun 8, 2018, 11:36 AM Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com> wrote:

Dear CEO and Legal Counsel,

 

 

I wrote asking for some clarification which should come from your offices. Up to now I have not received any response. I would be most grateful if you could spare some few minutes from your heavy schedule to do justice to my questions? 

 

 

Thanks

 

 

Marcus

 

From: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 10:32:18 AM
To: mje at posix.co.za; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss; Ornella GANKPA
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections 

 

Hello,

Thanks Ornella and others who has been actively participating in this discussion to help clear this issue once for good.

Can someone explains to me why  ?none of the above?  votes were not counted for  2017 elections  as it  was done for election 2018 ?

https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election  - 2017

https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections - 2018


Marcus

 

From: Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 5:34:13 PM
To: mje at posix.co.za; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections 

 

Hi Mark

My comments inline

 

Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit :

 

 

On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:

Owen, 

 

2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>:

Arnaud, 

 

While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that there is some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY not have been a legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go changing the rules of the election and violating the expectations of the voters, membership, and community after the election has run.

 

Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been made; let's fix it!>>


And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.

Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope of this discussion?  This is a matter of concern for the community at large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,  it is time to listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?


 

 

 

Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above on the ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.

 

No one is raising objection even now on  this option being on the ballot as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the correct implementation  of the guidelines as written.

 

 

Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the above to change the result among the remaining two candidates, it is not legitimate to simply discard the none of the above votes and declare one of those candidates a winner. Indeed, I would argue that is the worst possible choice among all other options.

 

The other options as I see it are:

 

1. Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board member until the

next AGMM.

 

2. Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which case it should be

considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from appointing

anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.

 

 

3. Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for seat 2 and preclude

the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to appoint seats 5

and 6.

 

As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the organization to proceed with a full board until the next AGMM where a hopefully more effective election can be accomplished.

 

I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the CEO. (The 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s vacancy, and the CEO).

 

The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying treating the election of ?none of the above? differently in this circumstance than in the case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases, more voters felt that they didn?t want any of the options on the ballot and voted not to elect any fo the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless of the number of candidates and should be handled identically.

 

Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on ballot and has not effect on the results 


What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None of the above" with "Abstain" ?

The guidelines  say:
"The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
It does not say to "reject all  the proposed candidate". 
It says to not vote  for any candidate and the guidelines states that , the candidate with the highest votes wins.
Let us stop  this harmful interpretation.


 

and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the elections rules. In the current  situation,  the guidelines are clear  and explicit  on how we should  handle the results. So let follow it and engage on discussions  for amending the rules  if we see need to do so.


I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none of the above". Why does this seem so hard to grasp? 

Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other document   which support your statement?  Some seems to refuse to read the guidelines  and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your statement.


I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one natural person on the list but not fine when there is more than one natural person on the list.

One explanation:
When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . I need a way to count the "no" vote.
a- change the ballot to  "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
b- use  natural candidate and " none of the above"
We were  using b)


 

 

 

 

Hopefully additional clarity can be achieved prior to the next election and we won?t have to face this issue again. Personally, I like the idea of having ?none of the above? as an option in all cases.

 

Clarity and fairness is the outcome of the complaint regarding seat 2 here imho; for the rest we can agree to disagree.


I agree to agree with Owen.

 

 

Owen

 

Thanks

 

 

On May 29, 2018, at 14:56 , Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com> wrote:

 

Dear Ashok as a lawyer you know that there is the law and spirit of the law, please read bellow  

 

2018-05-25 11:18 GMT+00:00 Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net>:

Dear All,
I apologize for having  missed your rejoinder to my mail.

 

Despite the delays, we appreciate your response as the matter is of great concern.

 

Your first question regards the reason as to why the same principle has been applied to the election for Seat 2 
notwithstanding the fact that there were two candidates.
My response is that an election cannot be run on different principles. In this particular election the option "none of the above " was 
introduced for the first time and everyone was aware of this and it applied to all the elections held on that day. The Election guidelines were amended to acomodate this option.

 

Yes indeed and the elections guidelines explicitely addressed the case of only a single candidate running for election and the option " none of the above" in this case got more votes than the sole candidate but is very silent in the case of multiple candidates running for elections with the option "none of the above" getting more votes. 

 

Anytime elections involve the option "none of the above", there are always clear rules on how the results are interpreted and the actions that must be taken when the option "none of the above" get more votes than the multiple candidates. 

 

It's not my intention to teach you something here, but it does look very bizarre that the legal counsel never bothered to help the board to make  the guidelines unambiguous  and conform to members expectations.

 

Consequently this option has to be taken in consideration when finalising the results.
Where there were two candidates. The options for voters were (1) yes for candidate (1)-((2) yes for candidate 2-(3) yes for non of the above.Each one is mutually exclusive.
Each score to be counted separately. The majority for either option wins the day. 

 

Following  your reasoning above and the guidelines which say the candidate with the highest votes win, the members and community should then accept "none of the above" as the elected candidate and seated although "none of the above " did not go through Nomcom and was not listed on the candidates slates  published by Nomcom.

 

Which means seat 2 should not be declared vacant to be filled by board.

 

Filling  seat 2 by board would constitute the violation of "none  of the above" rights and of our rules and thus expose us to legal litigation.

 

 

One should not create a fictitious majority by adding votes polled by (1) & (2) together. The real majority was to all intents and purposes the option which polled the most votes. There is no need to extrapolate or interpret. 

 

There is No fictitious majority being created. It was just an example of how this case could have been interpreted just like you do have your own interpretation. 

 

In many cases,  abstention is compared to voters in order to decide how to proceed with  validating an election and counting results..

 

 

Where there was one candidate there were two options- Yes for the single candidate or yes for  "non of the above"

 

The case of a sole candidate is clear as per the guidelines and there are no objections on seat 5 and 6 results.

 

My reference to Art 10.2 was based on the decision of the members present at  past AGMMs to have the option of rejecting a single candidate or to give their approval to the single candidate, This has occurred more than once.

 

And once again,  the case of a single candidate is handled as members agreed to and not debated

 

Thank you

 

 

Legal Counsel AFRINIC. 

 

On 24/05/2018 21:11, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:

Dear CEO and Chairman

 

It looks like the Legal counsel has not  responded to this query bellow   regarding this very important issue about the recently concluded elections. 

 

Could you kindly remind him?  

 

Let us address this to a good conclusion in order to enforce the respect of our rules and processes.

 

Regards 

 

Arnaud 

Le sam. 19 mai 2018 11:40, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> a ?crit :

Dear Legal Counsel,

 

Thanks for your input.  Much appreciated. 

 

Your statements reinforce the interpretation of section 9.2 of the guidelines with the origin of the "none of the above" option in the election process and how votes for this option are considered in the case of one candidate running for election for a seat. [Last bullet point] 

 

Case in which the election becomes a "yes" or "no"  vote for the only candidate.   This point is clear and accepted and the objection is not for the results for seat 5 and 6.

 

What has not been clarified is how the same principle came to be applied for the elections for seat 2 which had two candidates running for the seat, one of whom got higher votes than the other, with the total number of members casting votes in excess of those opting out.

 

You also referred to art 10.2 of the constitution but did not elaborate on the precedence that occurred that has become an integral part of our guidelines.  As precedence automatically becomes part of the election guidelines, it is important that we address issues which come up around the election with care and unambiguously. 

 

Can you be so kind to clarify? 

 

Best wishes

Omo

 

PS:  Grateful to listers to please keep this thread confined to the subject.

 

 

 

On 17 May 2018 at 17:17, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net> wrote:

Dear Members and Community,
Mt views have been sought on the matter under reference.
Please find same hereunder.

On 17/05/2018 14:04, B 

The Election Process and last AGMM.

The appointment of Directors is carried out during an AGMM of the Company ?Art 13.1 of the constitution.

The election of the Directors is carried out in terms of Art 13.2 of the constitution which refers expressly to the election process approved by the Board.

Moreover  Art 10.2 of the Constitution refers to precedent applied during an AFRINIC election and which de facto become part of the election guidelines. 

The election process  as it stands today is the one which was applied during  the elections held during the last AGMM without any opposition.

This is what it provides:

9.2 Paper Ballot on Election Day

The voting conducted during the Annual General Members' Meeting is carried out via paper ballots containing a list of candidate names and a ballot number. Prior to the vote, all members present or participants holding a proxy will be requested to register and validate their membership status.

?  Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region. Each mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than one mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be counted. 

?  The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above"). 

?  This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any personal data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be counted as spoilt. 

?  Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners. 

?  In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for that position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until there is a winner. 

?  All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat 

The last amendment of the election guidelines introduced the voting option ? None of the Above?. ?(Vide second bullet point above.)Those voters who have cast their votes for ? None of the Above? have done so in compliance with the prevailing  constitution  and these are thus valid votes. Every voter was aware of the new option.

The election guidelines are clear as to what happens when the ? None of the Above? option has a majority.- (Vide last bullet point above.)

The election guidelines must be read as a whole and all the provisions read together.

Legal Counsel ?AFRINIC

17.05.2018

oubakar Barry wrote:

Hello Board and Legal Counsel,

Good that Omo spotted this. 

It?s a matter of applying the board election process adopted by the board according to section 13.2 of the bylaws. 

https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process describes the process and section 9 spells out how to interpret the results in the case there are more than one candidate and in the case there is only one candidate. These two cases are addressed separately and differently.

It?s important to hear from the Board and the Legal Counsel, as the elections can be challenged.

Please advise.

Regards.

Boubakar

 

On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> wrote:

Greetings All,

 

I am looking at the BoD election process and it seems to me that the recent e-mail from the Board Chair seeking nominations for vacant seats should not be extended to Western Africa.  

 

The particular clause I am referring to is in 9.2 - https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process

?         
Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners 

I see from the list for West Africa that the candidate with the highest number of votes should have been declared winner and this is Dr Ousmane Tessa.  (btw, Dr Adewale Adedokun needs his name spelt correctly)

 


Western Africa - Seat 2

Dr Adelawe Abedekon - 43

Dr Ousmane Moussa Tessa - 56

None of the above - 78

Result: The seat is vacant

 

 

The results from the other regions are valid and supported by the following clause as they had one candidate. 

o    All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.  

 

Can AfriNIC and the nomcom please clarify?   We should not deprive Dr Tessa of a rightful win ?. especially in the circumstances we find ourselves.

 

Omo


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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Wed Jun 13 12:39:59 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 12:39:59 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC legal was ( [members-discuss]
 Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections)
In-Reply-To: <EA6BDE1E-4C81-4C96-9B64-F5102AF27EEC@nftconsult.com>
References: <EA6BDE1E-4C81-4C96-9B64-F5102AF27EEC@nftconsult.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB25700D9CDB20125050A2B68AEE7E0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Yet ? the board has still not updated us or said anything about the fact that we cannot within the current bylaws ? hold another election or an AGMM ? or what they are planning on doing about this ? despite it being raised several times.

Andrew


From: Badru Ntege [mailto:badru.ntege at nftconsult.com]
Sent: 13 June 2018 13:10
To: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>; Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>; DANIEL NANGHAKA <dndannang at gmail.com>; Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC legal was ( [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections)


Members



Many things went wrong in Dakar and Many more went very well.



As disturbing as it is I urge we look forward, learn from the history as opposed to becoming captives of our past.



Some of the wrongs are people related which calls for some kind of introspect and hopefully  behavior changes for the better.



Some of the wrongs are policy and process related which we have full powers to fix and should now focus our energies at fixing.



The chair shared a fair summary of the current situation and I urge and request we close this chapter.



Continuing this thread is a zero-sum game which gives legitimacy to those would be distractors of AfriNIC.



The Election in Dakar was a minor setback in the life of AfriNIC.



Members will come and go, elections will come and go, the institution that is AfriNIC will be here to serve many more generations to come.



Regards

Badru
From: "Marcus K. G. Adomey" <madomey at hotmail.com<mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>>
Date: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 12:41 AM
To: Andrew Alston <andrew.alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:andrew.alston at liquidtelecom.com>>, DANIEL NANGHAKA <dndannang at gmail.com<mailto:dndannang at gmail.com>>, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net<mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>, AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:members-discuss at afrinic.net>>
Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC legal was ( [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections)

Dear Legal Counsel,
Second  opinion is always good when clearing disputes and to show confidence in a system. You playing judge and party  is awkward. All the disputed issues are from actions and decisions  supervised  by you. it is more appropriate  for you to recommend that they are resolved  otherwise.
We expect from  AFRINIC  legal counsel  to make sure, processes, guidelines are unambiguous, strictly followed and the appropriate  dispute resolution mechanisms are in place  and tell the board the right thing to do  in case of dispute.
By the way, how often does AFRINIC  change its legal counsel?
Thanks

Marcus


________________________________
From: Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net<mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>>
Sent: Friday, June 8, 2018 11:53:36 AM
To: Andrew Alston; DANIEL NANGHAKA; Marcus K. G. Adomey
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections

Dear All,
I am the legal adviser of the company AFRINIC Ltd. Hence for me to act in one way or the other
I need to get instructions from the company.As presently advised I have not received any instructions
to seize the court for adjudicating on the matter.
 For the record,I have already communicated my views to the community on this matter ( vide my mail dated 17.05.2018).If any party wishes to challenge these views, they are free
to take same to court. Obviously it cannot be me.
Regards
Legal Counsel-AFRINIC.
On 08/06/2018 13:30, Andrew Alston wrote:
The answer to that is simple,

For something to be sorted in a court of law ? someone has to take it to court.

Since the people who members of this community claim were disenfranchised by the vote have not taken it to court ? and since there are many ? who include the AFRINIC legal council based on his previous statements, who believe that the correct actions were taken ? how is it going to be sorted in a court?

If someone wishes to approach the Mauritian courts to adjudicate this ? let them do so ? but that requires someone willing to spend the money and resources to do that ? and right now ? I see a lot of people whining ? but I don?t see anyone willing to dedicate the resources to doing that ? and for AFRINIC to approach the court ? when they have already stated clearly how they view the situation ? would be equivalent to litigating against themselves.  I hardly see that happening

Andrew


From: DANIEL NANGHAKA [mailto:dndannang at gmail.com]
Sent: 08 June 2018 12:16
To: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com><mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net><mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net><mailto:members-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections

Why can't this issue be sorted in court?
Don't we have a legal counsel?

On Fri, Jun 8, 2018, 11:36 AM Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com<mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>> wrote:
Dear CEO and Legal Counsel,


I wrote asking for some clarification which should come from your offices. Up to now I have not received any response. I would be most grateful if you could spare some few minutes from your heavy schedule to do justice to my questions?


Thanks


Marcus

________________________________
From: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com<mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2018 10:32:18 AM
To: mje at posix.co.za<mailto:mje at posix.co.za>; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss; Ornella GANKPA
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections

Hello,
Thanks Ornella and others who has been actively participating in this discussion to help clear this issue once for good.
Can someone explains to me why  ?none of the above?  votes were not counted for  2017 elections  as it  was done for election 2018 ?
https<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>://<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>www.afrinic.net<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>  - 2017
https<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections>://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections<https://www.afrinic.net/fr/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections> - 2018

Marcus

________________________________
From: Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com<mailto:honest1989 at gmail.com>>
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 5:34:13 PM
To: mje at posix.co.za<mailto:mje at posix.co.za>; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Discuss
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections


Hi Mark

My comments inline

Le 30/05/2018 ? 19:13, Mark Elkins a ?crit :



On 30/05/2018 19:20, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
Owen,

2018-05-29 22:34 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com<mailto:owen at delong.com>>:
Arnaud,

While I agree that additional clarity is needed and I agree that there is some validity to the claim that none of the above MAY not have been a legitimate choice to place on the ballot, I think we cannot go changing the rules of the election and violating the expectations of the voters, membership, and community after the election has run.

Voters, membership and community are saying: <<a mistake has been made; let's fix it!>>

And members are saying "We are happy with the outcome" (I am, anyway). The only folk that should be commenting on this are the voting membership.
Why is the former board member and board chair so nervous about the scope of this discussion?  This is a matter of concern for the community at large. This is not a remake of the elections. Or maybe,  it is time to listen to the other 1409 members who did not vote?



Nobody raised an objection to the presence of none of the above on the ballot for seat 2 prior to or during the election.

No one is raising objection even now on  this option being on the ballot as the guidelines are clear on that. the issue at hand is the correct implementation  of the guidelines as written.


Since there were more than enough voters who selected none of the above to change the result among the remaining two candidates, it is not legitimate to simply discard the none of the above votes and declare one of those candidates a winner. Indeed, I would argue that is the worst possible choice among all other options.

The other options as I see it are:

1. Allow the board to treat the seat as vacant and appoint a board member until the
next AGMM.

2. Treat none of the above as a valid election result (in which case it should be
considered the same for all 3 seats) and preclude the board from appointing
anyone to the seat(s) until an election can be run.


3. Treat none of the above as a valid election result only for seat 2 and preclude
the board from appointing seat 2 while still allowing them to appoint seats 5
and 6.

As I see it, the best option is option 1. It allows the organization to proceed with a full board until the next AGMM where a hopefully more effective election can be accomplished.

I think option 2 is bad because it leaves the board precariously short-handed with only 5 of the expected 8 members, including the CEO. (The 3 elected members which remain, whoever is appointed to fill Haitham?s vacancy, and the CEO).

The problem I have with option 3 is I have trouble justifying treating the election of ?none of the above? differently in this circumstance than in the case of a single unopposed candidate. In both cases, more voters felt that they didn?t want any of the options on the ballot and voted not to elect any fo the candidates. The outcome is, IMHO, the same regardless of the number of candidates and should be handled identically.

Why? There are places in the world where "none of the above" is on ballot and has not effect on the results

What would the point of that be then - or are people confusing "None of the above" with "Abstain" ?
The guidelines  say:
"The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a. k.a. "None of the Above")"
It does not say to "reject all  the proposed candidate".
It says to not vote  for any candidate and the guidelines states that , the candidate with the highest votes wins.
Let us stop  this harmful interpretation.

and candidates with the highest votes wins. It is matter of the elections rules. In the current  situation,  the guidelines are clear  and explicit  on how we should  handle the results. So let follow it and engage on discussions  for amending the rules  if we see need to do so.

I was on the Board when this was introduced (6 or so years back?). Its doing exactly what it was intended to - that if a person does not like *anyone* on the list of choices - the member can instead select "none of the above". Why does this seem so hard to grasp?
Can you point to board meeting minutes, resolutions or any other document   which support your statement?  Some seems to refuse to read the guidelines  and just regurgitate whatever works for them.
The guidelines are clear and may have not been written to match your statement.
I also fail to understand why this is fine when there is only one natural person on the list but not fine when there is more than one natural person on the list.
One explanation:
When I only have one candidate, the vote becomes a "yes" or " no" vote . I need a way to count the "no" vote.
a- change the ballot to  "yes" or " no", "in favor" or "against "
b- use  natural candidate and " none of the above"
We were  using b)




Hopefully additional clarity can be achieved prior to the next election and we won?t have to face this issue again. Personally, I like the idea of having ?none of the above? as an option in all cases.

Clarity and fairness is the outcome of the complaint regarding seat 2 here imho; for the rest we can agree to disagree.

I agree to agree with Owen.


Owen

Thanks


On May 29, 2018, at 14:56 , Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com<mailto:amelnaud at gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Ashok as a lawyer you know that there is the law and spirit of the law, please read bellow

2018-05-25 11:18 GMT+00:00 Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net<mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>>:
Dear All,
I apologize for having  missed your rejoinder to my mail.

Despite the delays, we appreciate your response as the matter is of great concern.

Your first question regards the reason as to why the same principle has been applied to the election for Seat 2
notwithstanding the fact that there were two candidates.
My response is that an election cannot be run on different principles. In this particular election the option "none of the above " was
introduced for the first time and everyone was aware of this and it applied to all the elections held on that day. The Election guidelines were amended to acomodate this option.

Yes indeed and the elections guidelines explicitely addressed the case of only a single candidate running for election and the option " none of the above" in this case got more votes than the sole candidate but is very silent in the case of multiple candidates running for elections with the option "none of the above" getting more votes.

Anytime elections involve the option "none of the above", there are always clear rules on how the results are interpreted and the actions that must be taken when the option "none of the above" get more votes than the multiple candidates.

It's not my intention to teach you something here, but it does look very bizarre that the legal counsel never bothered to help the board to make  the guidelines unambiguous  and conform to members expectations.

Consequently this option has to be taken in consideration when finalising the results.
Where there were two candidates. The options for voters were (1) yes for candidate (1)-((2) yes for candidate 2-(3) yes for non of the above.Each one is mutually exclusive.
Each score to be counted separately. The majority for either option wins the day.

Following  your reasoning above and the guidelines which say the candidate with the highest votes win, the members and community should then accept "none of the above" as the elected candidate and seated although "none of the above " did not go through Nomcom and was not listed on the candidates slates  published by Nomcom.

Which means seat 2 should not be declared vacant to be filled by board.

Filling  seat 2 by board would constitute the violation of "none  of the above" rights and of our rules and thus expose us to legal litigation.


One should not create a fictitious majority by adding votes polled by (1) & (2) together. The real majority was to all intents and purposes the option which polled the most votes. There is no need to extrapolate or interpret.

There is No fictitious majority being created. It was just an example of how this case could have been interpreted just like you do have your own interpretation.

In many cases,  abstention is compared to voters in order to decide how to proceed with  validating an election and counting results..


Where there was one candidate there were two options- Yes for the single candidate or yes for  "non of the above"

The case of a sole candidate is clear as per the guidelines and there are no objections on seat 5 and 6 results.

My reference to Art 10.2 was based on the decision of the members present at  past AGMMs to have the option of rejecting a single candidate or to give their approval to the single candidate, This has occurred more than once.

And once again,  the case of a single candidate is handled as members agreed to and not debated

Thank you


Legal Counsel AFRINIC.

On 24/05/2018 21:11, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
Dear CEO and Chairman

It looks like the Legal counsel has not  responded to this query bellow   regarding this very important issue about the recently concluded elections.

Could you kindly remind him?

Let us address this to a good conclusion in order to enforce the respect of our rules and processes.

Regards

Arnaud
Le sam. 19 mai 2018 11:40, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net<mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> a ?crit :
Dear Legal Counsel,

Thanks for your input.  Much appreciated.

Your statements reinforce the interpretation of section 9.2 of the guidelines with the origin of the "none of the above" option in the election process and how votes for this option are considered in the case of one candidate running for election for a seat. [Last bullet point]

Case in which the election becomes a "yes" or "no"  vote for the only candidate.   This point is clear and accepted and the objection is not for the results for seat 5 and 6.

What has not been clarified is how the same principle came to be applied for the elections for seat 2 which had two candidates running for the seat, one of whom got higher votes than the other, with the total number of members casting votes in excess of those opting out.

You also referred to art 10.2 of the constitution but did not elaborate on the precedence that occurred that has become an integral part of our guidelines.  As precedence automatically becomes part of the election guidelines, it is important that we address issues which come up around the election with care and unambiguously.

Can you be so kind to clarify?

Best wishes
Omo

PS:  Grateful to listers to please keep this thread confined to the subject.



On 17 May 2018 at 17:17, Ashok <ashok at afrinic.net<mailto:ashok at afrinic.net>> wrote:
Dear Members and Community,
Mt views have been sought on the matter under reference.
Please find same hereunder.
On 17/05/2018 14:04, B

The Election Process and last AGMM.

The appointment of Directors is carried out during an AGMM of the Company ?Art 13.1 of the constitution.

The election of the Directors is carried out in terms of Art 13.2 of the constitution which refers expressly to the election process approved by the Board.

Moreover  Art 10.2 of the Constitution refers to precedent applied during an AFRINIC election and which de facto become part of the election guidelines.

The election process  as it stands today is the one which was applied during  the elections held during the last AGMM without any opposition.

This is what it provides:

9.2 Paper Ballot on Election Day

The voting conducted during the Annual General Members' Meeting is carried out via paper ballots containing a list of candidate names and a ballot number. Prior to the vote, all members present or participants holding a proxy will be requested to register and validate their membership status.
?  Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region. Each mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than one mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be counted.
?  The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").
?  This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any personal data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be counted as spoilt.
?  Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners.
?  In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for that position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until there is a winner.
?  All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat

The last amendment of the election guidelines introduced the voting option ? None of the Above?. ?(Vide second bullet point above.)Those voters who have cast their votes for ? None of the Above? have done so in compliance with the prevailing  constitution  and these are thus valid votes. Every voter was aware of the new option.

The election guidelines are clear as to what happens when the ? None of the Above? option has a majority.- (Vide last bullet point above.)

The election guidelines must be read as a whole and all the provisions read together.

Legal Counsel ?AFRINIC

17.05.2018
oubakar Barry wrote:

Hello Board and Legal Counsel,

Good that Omo spotted this.

It?s a matter of applying the board election process adopted by the board according to section 13.2 of the bylaws.

https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process<https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process> describes the process and section 9 spells out how to interpret the results in the case there are more than one candidate and in the case there is only one candidate. These two cases are addressed separately and differently.

It?s important to hear from the Board and the Legal Counsel, as the elections can be challenged.

Please advise.

Regards.

Boubakar

On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net<mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> wrote:
Greetings All,

I am looking at the BoD election process and it seems to me that the recent e-mail from the Board Chair seeking nominations for vacant seats should not be extended to Western Africa.

The particular clause I am referring to is in 9.2 - https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process<https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process>
?
Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest number of votes in each category will be declared winners
I see from the list for West Africa that the candidate with the highest number of votes should have been declared winner and this is Dr Ousmane Tessa.  (btw, Dr Adewale Adedokun needs his name spelt correctly)


Western Africa - Seat 2

Dr Adelawe Abedekon - 43

Dr Ousmane Moussa Tessa - 56

None of the above - 78

Result: The seat is vacant


The results from the other regions are valid and supported by the following clause as they had one candidate.
o   All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.

Can AfriNIC and the nomcom please clarify?   We should not deprive Dr Tessa of a rightful win ?. especially in the circumstances we find ourselves.

Omo

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From sm+afrinic at elandsys.com  Wed Jun 13 19:15:37 2018
From: sm+afrinic at elandsys.com (S Moonesamy)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 12:15:37 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC legal was ( [members-discuss]
 Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections)
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB25700D9CDB20125050A2B68AEE7E0@HE1PR0301MB2570.e
 urprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <EA6BDE1E-4C81-4C96-9B64-F5102AF27EEC@nftconsult.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB25700D9CDB20125050A2B68AEE7E0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20180613111041.0cf97c70@elandnews.com>

Hi Andrew,

[I trimmed the email addresses so as to keep the 
thread on one mailing list only]

At 05:39 AM 13-06-2018, Andrew Alston wrote:
>Yet ? the board has still not updated us or said 
>anyything about the fact that we cannot within 
>the current bylaws ? hold another election or an 
>AGMM ? or what thethey are planning on doing 
>about this ? despite it beingg raised several times.

There was a email [1] from the Chair of the Board 
about the past elections.  The email mentioned 
that the intention is to review the election process for future elections.

Due to legal obligations I unfortunately cannot 
provide any further information in response to your message.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2018-June/002395.html 




From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Wed Jun 13 19:32:39 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 19:32:39 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC legal was ( [members-discuss]
 Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections)
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20180613111041.0cf97c70@elandnews.com>
References: <EA6BDE1E-4C81-4C96-9B64-F5102AF27EEC@nftconsult.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB25700D9CDB20125050A2B68AEE7E0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180613111041.0cf97c70@elandnews.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB2570322907EDCDC3C43EDB09EE7E0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

SM - Sorry - but that is such absolute garbage.

The election guidelines have NOTHING to do with the fact that we cannot LEGALLY hold another election at the moment - that is an issue of quorum - an issue of what the bylaws say - an issue of hard legal facts.

The board has an obligation to keep the membership informed of any and all issues that affect the company - yet here we sit - with an issue that prevents the company holding an AGMM - which puts them in violation next year of the companies act which REQUIRES an AGMM within 6 months of financial closing - and no way to actually restore the quorum without 2 SGMM's - and are we being informed?  Are we getting any information?  No - instead - individual board members hide behind the NDA - and the board as a collective says nothing.

It's really quite sad that we have come to this

Andrew


From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+afrinic at elandsys.com]
Sent: 13 June 2018 22:16
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>; community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC legal was ( [members-discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC AGMM Elections)

Hi Andrew,

[I trimmed the email addresses so as to keep the
thread on one mailing list only]

At 05:39 AM 13-06-2018, Andrew Alston wrote:
>Yet - the board has still not updated us or said
>anyything about the fact that we cannot within
>the current bylaws - hold another election or an
>AGMM - or what thethey are planning on doing
>about this - despite it beingg raised several times.

There was a email [1] from the Chair of the Board
about the past elections. The email mentioned
that the intention is to review the election process for future elections.

Due to legal obligations I unfortunately cannot
provide any further information in response to your message.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2018-June/002395.html<https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2018-June/002395.html>
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From walu.john at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 05:46:59 2018
From: walu.john at gmail.com (John Walu)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 08:46:59 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Faulty result for Western Africa in AfriNIC
 AGMM Elections
In-Reply-To: <2C820D8F-D674-4000-8115-A5D2D95FF1B9@gmail.com>
References: <2C820D8F-D674-4000-8115-A5D2D95FF1B9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHt2V=8QcAmBpa7wnUS8g+DySYrk2eo=ERwTBLiADijfap=FBw@mail.gmail.com>

+1.

walu.

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 9:58 PM Bope Christian <christianbope at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear AFRINIC Members and Community,
>
> There has been much discussion about the results of the elections held
> during the AGMM on 10 May 2018, and associated processes.
>
> I will try to answer these questions:
>
>
>    - What is the election process?
>    - What happened in previous years?
>    - What happened in 2018?
>    - What does the election process says about the ?None of the above?
>    option?
>    - How should the result be interpreted when ?None of the above?
>    receives the most votes?
>    - Does AFRINIC have an election appeal process?
>    - Should the result stand as previously announced?
>    - What are the future actions?
>
>
> ## What is the Election Process?
>
> The Election Process (sometimes called the election guidelines) is
> approved by the Board in terms of the Bylaws article 13.2:
>
> 13.2. The election of the Directors of the company shall be carried out
> in line with the Election process approved by the Board.
>
> The current Election Process was revised and approved by the Board in 2014
> (Resolutions 201404.196 and 201411.218)*, *and is published at <
> https://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process
> <https://afrinic.n>>.
> Under section 9.2, the following bullet points appear (the bullet numbers
> are not in the original):
>
> [1] ? Voters should only vote for one candidate per category/region. Each
> mark on a ballot paper represents one vote. A ballot with more than one
> mark per category/region will be considered spoilt, and not be counted.
>
> [2] ? The ballot paper should provide voters with the option to not vote
> for any candidate (a.k.a. "None of the Above").
>
> [3] ? This will be a secret ballot election. An inclusion of any personal
> data on the ballot paper will invalidate the vote and will be counted as
> spoilt.
>
> [4] ? Elections will be closed as soon as the last member or proxy
> present in the meeting room casts his/her vote. Candidates with the highest
> number of votes in each category will be declared winners.
>
> [5] ? In the event of a tie for an open position, voting for that
> position will be repeated (Only by paper ballot) the same day until there
> is a winner.
>
> [6] ? All open positions shall be subject to an election process even if
> there is only one candidate. In that event, if the option [none of the
> above] got more votes than the only candidate, then the seat shall be
> considered vacant and the Board will be requested to apply provisions of
> the Bylaws to temporarily fill the vacant seat.
>
> ## What happened in previous years?
>
> The option to vote for ?None of the above? has appeared on AFRINIC Board
> election ballots every year since 2013. In 2017, the final computed results
> contained scores for the ?None of the above? option. Since those scores did
> not make ?none of the above? the winner, they were not mentioned in the
> announcement of results published at <
> https://afrinic.net/en/news/2139-results-of-afrinic-agmm-election>
>
> ## What happened in 2018?
>
> Three AFRINIC Board seats were up for election at the AGMM on 10 May
> 2018.  For all three seats, ?None of the above? received the most votes,
> and as a consequence, the seats have remained vacant for the time being.
> This was the first time that ?None of the above? received the most votes
> for any Board seat.  The result was announced during the AGMM and later
> published at  <
> https://afrinic.net/en/news/2391-results-of-afrinic-agmm-elections >
>
> ## What does the election process say about the ?None of the above? option?
>
> Bullet point 2 in the election process specifies that ?None of the above?
> should appear as a choice for all seats, not only for seats where there is
> only one candidate.
>
> Bullet point 4 in the election process specifies that the candidate with
> the highest number of votes will be the winner.  However, it is silent
> about what happens if the highest number of votes goes to ?None of the
> above? instead of a candidate.
>
> Bullet point 6 in the election process specifies what happens when ?None
> of the above? gets the highest number of votes in an election with only one
> candidate, but is silent about seats with multiple candidates.
>
> In summary, the election process is clear about what happens in an
> election with one candidate when ?None of the above? wins, but is silent
> about what happens in an election with more than one candidate when ?None
> of the above? wins.
>
> ## How should the result be interpreted when ?None of the above? receives
> the most votes?
>
> It is a widely-accepted principle that, if a written process is silent on
> some point, then the intent should be considered.
>
> The intended meaning of the ?None of the above? option is clear in the
> case of an election with only one candidate: bullet point 6 states that, if
> ?None of the above? gets the most votes, then the seat remains vacant.
>
> In an election with multiple candidates, we have already seen that bullet
> point 2 requires a ?None of the above? option, but it is silent about what
> happens if that option receives the most votes.  Some people have argued
> that the seat should remain vacant (pointing to the intent behind bullet
> point 6), and some have argued that the winner should be the candidate
> other than ?None of the above? who received the most votes (pointing to the
> text of bullet point 4).
>
> The fact that bullet point 2 explicitly requires a ?None of the above?
> option for all seats, suggests that the intention was for ?None of the
> above? to have a meaning different from an abstention.  After all, if
> voting for ?None of the above? was intended to have the same meaning as an
> abstention, then there would be no need for a ?None of the above? option on
> the ballot, and voters could simply abstain from voting for that seat.
>
> ## Does AFRINIC have an election appeal process?
>
> There isn?t any documented process for appealing the result of an AFRINIC
> Board election. The committee handling the election (Nomination committee
> and Election committee) should make sure that the election guideline is
> explain clearly to members before the process start in order to avoid
> misinterpretation
>
> ## Should the result stand as previously announced?
>
> The Board recognises the objections that were raised a few days after the
> election, on Wednesday 16 May 2018, but notes that no objections were
> raised on the day of the election, Thursday 10 May 2018.  The Board has
> decided that the results stand as they were announced immediately after the
> votes were counted.  That means that the affected seats remain vacant for
> the time being.
>
> ## What are the future actions?
>
> The Board recognises that the process does not make it clear what happens
> when ?None of the above? receives the most votes in an election with
> multiple candidates.  The Board would like to encourage the committee
> handling the election in future to ensure that members understand the
> election guidelines before voting starts. Furthermore, the Board intends to
> review the election process for future elections which will include a
> public consultation. The Board will also consider an appeal process during
> the review of the guideline
>
> The Board intends to fill the vacant seats in terms of the Bylaws article
> 13.14.  To this end, the Board has called for expressions of interest; see <
> https://www.afrinic.net/en/news/2395-filling-of-the-casual-vacancies
> <https://www.afrinic.net/en/news/2395->>.  The seats to be filled are the
> three seats that were included in the election on 10 May 2018, and a fourth
> seat that was not included in that election.
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Christian D. Bope, Ph.D
> Chairman, AFRINIC Board
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Fri Jun 15 03:55:32 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 03:55:32 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Hi AfriNIC Community and AfriNIC Board,

I have a number of questions around the upcoming meeting in Cotonou on the 6th of July this year - what is being termed as a celebration of Africa IG 1998 - 2018.

Firstly - can AFRINIC tell us, just how much money they are contributing to this event - keeping in mind that funds that AFRINIC spend are contributed by members, I think the community may be interested to hear an answer to this.
Secondly - can AFRINIC tell us if they truly believe this event if appropriate at this point in time - when the community has shown a total lack of faith in the board - when the company sits with a legal problem of being unable to elect directors or form quorum for another AGMM - coming on the back of a report that has to be commissioned into the conduct of AFRINIC board and management - which has never yet been shared with this community, is it really appropriate to be spending money on, partnering with, or having anything to do with a "celebration" of this nature.

What is being celebrated?  20 years of us slowly moving towards complete collapse while the current board continues to bluntly ignore the questions about how they plan to solve the quorum issue for AGMM's and election of new directors - despite it having been raised time and again?

Please - I think we as a community deserve some answers - because that event - smacks of the AFRINIC saying "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche"

Thanks

Andrew

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From dabu.sifiso at yandex.com  Fri Jun 15 09:35:33 2018
From: dabu.sifiso at yandex.com (Dabu Sifiso)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 04:35:33 -0500
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>



Hi Mr. Alston,


Are you specifically referring to this:
http://internethistory.africa/en/#csi-sponsors

Interesting as it is apparently sponsored by AFRINIC, but not listed in the events calendar:
https://afrinic.net/fr/community/afrinic-events/events-calendar

Who are the intended audience?


14.06.2018, 22:58, "Andrew Alston" <andrew.alston at liquidtelecom.com>:
> Hi AfriNIC Community and AfriNIC Board,
>
> I have a number of questions around the upcoming meeting in Cotonou on the 6th of July this year ? what is being termed as a celebration of Africa IG 1998 ? 2018.
>
> Firstly ? can AFRINIC tell us, just how much money they are contributing to this event ? keeping in mind that funds that AFRINIC spend are contributed by members, I think the community may be interested to hear an answer to this.
>
> Secondly ? can AFRINIC tell us if they truly believe this event if appropriate at this point in time ? when the community has shown a total lack of faith in the board ? when the company sits with a legal problem of being unable to elect directors or form quorum for another AGMM ? coming on the back of a report that has to be commissioned into the conduct of AFRINIC board and management ? which has never yet been shared with this community, is it really appropriate to be spending money on, partnering with, or having anything to do with a ?celebration? of this nature.
>
> What is being celebrated?? 20 years of us slowly moving towards complete collapse while the current board continues to bluntly ignore the questions about how they plan to solve the quorum issue for AGMM?s and election of new directors ? despite it having been raised time and again?
>
> Please ? I think we as a community deserve some answers ? because that event ? smacks of the AFRINIC saying ?Qu'ils mangent de la brioche?
>
> Thanks
>
> Andrew
>
> ,
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss



From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Fri Jun 15 12:50:46 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 12:50:46 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

It gets more interesting ?

It is not on the ISOC event calendar either ? and on another forum ? I have people who are claiming to be on the program yet have never even received an invite ? and another person who said there is no content just ?cultural events?

The more I dig into this ? the more questions it raises ? is this a private party being paid for by the members money under the guise of a ?celebration? event ? celebrating the fact that AFRINIC is a state of complete crisis?

Wow ? the questions keep coming.

So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events calendar?  I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.

Andrew

From: Dabu Sifiso [mailto:dabu.sifiso at yandex.com]
Sent: 15 June 2018 12:36
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net
Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting



Hi Mr. Alston,


Are you specifically referring to this:
http://internethistory.africa/en/#csi-sponsors

Interesting as it is apparently sponsored by AFRINIC, but not listed in the events calendar:
https://afrinic.net/fr/community/afrinic-events/events-calendar<https://afrinic.net/fr/community/afrinic-events/events-calendar>

Who are the intended audience?


14.06.2018, 22:58, "Andrew Alston" <andrew.alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:andrew.alston at liquidtelecom.com>>:
> Hi AfriNIC Community and AfriNIC Board,
>
> I have a number of questions around the upcoming meeting in Cotonou on the 6th of July this year ? what is being termed as a celebration of Africa IG 1998 ? 2018.
>
> Firstly ? can AFRINIC tell us, just how much money they are contributing to this event ? keeping in mind that funds that AFRINIC spend are contributed by members, I think the community may be interested to hear an answer to this.
>
> Secondly ? can AFRINIC tell us if they truly believe this event if appropriate at this point in time ? when the community has shown a total lack of faith in the board ? when the company sits with a legal problem of being unable to elect directors or form quorum for another AGMM ? coming on the back of a report that has to be commissioned into the conduct of AFRINIC board and management ? which has never yet been shared with this community, is it really appropriate to be spending money on, partnering with, or having anything to do with a ?celebration? of this nature.
>
> What is being celebrated?  20 years of us slowly moving towards complete collapse while the current board continues to bluntly ignore the questions about how they plan to solve the quorum issue for AGMM?s and election of new directors ? despite it having been raised time and again?
>
> Please ? I think we as a community deserve some answers ? because that event ? smacks of the AFRINIC saying ?Qu'ils mangent de la brioche?
>
> Thanks
>
> Andrew
>
> ,
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
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From adiel at akplogan.com  Fri Jun 15 16:36:17 2018
From: adiel at akplogan.com (Adiel Akplogan (akp.com))
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 12:36:17 -0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <61F3DC71-D5E8-4F77-9F2C-97CA1FBB8F45@akplogan.com>

Andrew,

I try to keep myself out of the AFRINIC?s community discussion over that past few years, but with all due respect, I would like you to please show a little bit of consideration to the history related to how thing happened in this region (even if you do not respect the people, respect the history).

First of all, the event in Cotonou in 1998 was not only about AFRINIC, but the whole internet technical governance landscape. That is where discussion about other AF* initiatives such as AFNOC, AfTLD, AfREN ? started. There were people who spent their time and resources to get the community together to discuss these initiatives, and set the ground principles that brought the ecosystem where it today. Even if you have your view and opinion on AFRINIC, I think many of other organizations are working and growing achieving the goal in mind then, which is to build a strong, vibrant, and engaged real African community on Internet governance topics. Have we succeeded to have every single people or Operators engaged? No, and that is not case anywhere in the world!! But we have to be proud and celebrate the achievement while learning from the mistakes along the road to improve and aim at a brighter future.

Talking about AFRINIC, let?s not forget that it has been created, it has grown, and is able support the development of other groups to ensure a diverse ecosystem. Over 10 years, AFRINIC has made progress and found its seat within the global Internet community (while preserving its unique specificities). If unfortunately lately politics and personalization of its work is hampering its progress, we shouldn?t try to scrap all the work that many have done to get us where we are, where you can have a platform to express your view in the way you want as you do. Since 1998 the African community has grown, as has Internet penetration and its use. Let's recognize that.

I am not saying this because, like many others on this list, I was in Cotonou[1], but for preserving something deep and dear to our African culture which is called RESPECT.

I really call us all to remember something fundamental: anything we do here will not be possible if there is no community behind it. That is how the internet is technically governed. We need to focus on continuing to build and strengthen our community, nurturing its diversity and creating an environment that encourages open, candide but respectful exchange of ideas that can positively impact us all. Our diversity should be our strength not our weakness. Franche, English, Portuguese, Arabic, North, South, West, East, Central, Indian Ocean, does not define the Internet. The value it bring us does.

Pausing and taking stock over what has happened over the past 20 years is not a bad thing and if any I* or Af* organization decides to contribute and share its experience that should be appreciated.

Thank you.

- a. (Speaking in my personal capacity as an African, an AFRINIC member and member of the global community who still believe in a bright future for the organization as a catalyst for the regional community).

[1] - While I contributed to the discussion, I had no idea that my professional path would cross over with a hypothetical AFRINIC organization. I already had a very rewarding job at the time :-). I got engaged/involved then because as managing a small ISP, I felt the pain of getting IPv4 addresses from RIPE-NCC.

> On Jun 14, 2018, at 23:55, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi AfriNIC Community and AfriNIC Board,
> 
> I have a number of questions around the upcoming meeting in Cotonou on the 6th of July this year ? what is being termed as a celebration of Africa IG 1998 ? 2018.
> 
> Firstly ? can AFRINIC tell us, just how much money they are contributing to this event ? keeping in mind that funds that AFRINIC spend are contributed by members, I think the community may be interested to hear an answer to this.
> Secondly ? can AFRINIC tell us if they truly believe this event if appropriate at this point in time ? when the community has shown a total lack of faith in the board ? when the company sits with a legal problem of being unable to elect directors or form quorum for another AGMM ? coming on the back of a report that has to be commissioned into the conduct of AFRINIC board and management ? which has never yet been shared with this community, is it really appropriate to be spending money on, partnering with, or having anything to do with a ?celebration? of this nature.
> 
> What is being celebrated?  20 years of us slowly moving towards complete collapse while the current board continues to bluntly ignore the questions about how they plan to solve the quorum issue for AGMM?s and election of new directors ? despite it having been raised time and again?
> 
> Please ? I think we as a community deserve some answers ? because that event ? smacks of the AFRINIC saying ?Qu'ils mangent de la brioche?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Andrew
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss

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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Fri Jun 15 18:21:21 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 18:21:21 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <61F3DC71-D5E8-4F77-9F2C-97CA1FBB8F45@akplogan.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <61F3DC71-D5E8-4F77-9F2C-97CA1FBB8F45@akplogan.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB257032C836EC5F003BFA294CEE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Adiel,

With all due respect ? let me respond to this piece by piece.

Firstly ? I know a LOT about the history ? please keep in mind ? I?ve been working in this industry full time now for 23 years ? since I was 16 years old.  I remember the days of the Internet sitting inside a lab where admittedly I probably wasn?t supposed to be on ircII via a system at the end of a 64bit link ? and that was way before 1998.

HISTORY does not gain respect ? because HISTORY is written by the victors so they say ? and it is only respectful to this community to look, before making decisions as to celebrate something, as to the current status quo.  When the status quo is the community crying out for reform and change ? when the status quo shows that at least some of the people who were involved back then have since engaged in a pattern of hedgemony and blant disregard for the community ? when the community has said ENOUGH ? to find the organisation that ISP?s, as members, fund, out of their earnings ? spending our money on an event that is not even appearing on calendars ? that ? is misguided at best.

Considering that there are people on that program who are claiming they haven?t even gotten invites ? and others who are saying they were there back in 98 and do not believe that ICANN?s involvement in this event is anything more than a sponsorship logo because (to paraphrase) there is nothing of substance on the agenda other than a bunch of cultural events ? that ? is a private party and something members should object to paying for.

Yes ? the internet has grown on the continent ? so I believe that it was all thanks to a meeting in 1998?  Not a chance ? Please ? keep in mind that before AFRINIC many people had space ? and it worked just fine ? and AFRINIC ? did not really make it easier to get space ? in fact ? if I recall it was an academic NREN that gave AFRINIC some of the first space it ever handed out.

Looking back at the last 20 years may be worth doing ? but not in some celebration ? for the AF* it should be a question of ? how the HELL did it go SO horribly wrong ? how did it get to the point where we sit with AFRINIC?  How did it get to a point where the top person in AFNOG stands up at the end of a meeting and insults the government of a host country because they would not hand over more cash on the basis that the the information being requested simply wasn?t accurate and wasn?t there? How did it get to the point where we want to turn our domain system into an ICO and trade it like a giant ponzi scheme in the name of ?non profit? while our governance is so shocking that we cannot get audited accounts for any of the AF* members other than AFRINIC ? and when we try and question for more details about what is THOSE accounts at an AGMM we get shut down?

You talk about respect ? respect is acknowledging that the community has stood up and said ENOUGH ? that the community showed with their ballots what they thought the state of things were ? and to do not and rub that in peoples faces by holding an event to celebrate the fact that we have ? fundamentally ? FAILED ? and need to go back to the drawing board.  This as I said ? smacks of arrogance and padding of egos and flies in the face of a community that is angry and wants reforms ? not parties.

Andrew


From: Adiel Akplogan (akp.com) [mailto:adiel at akplogan.com]
Sent: 15 June 2018 19:36
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Andrew,

I try to keep myself out of the AFRINIC?s community discussion over that past few years, but with all due respect, I would like you to please show a little bit of consideration to the history related to how thing happened in this region (even if you do not respect the people, respect the history).

First of all, the event in Cotonou in 1998 was not only about AFRINIC, but the whole internet technical governance landscape. That is where discussion about other AF* initiatives such as AFNOC, AfTLD, AfREN ? started. There were people who spent their time and resources to get the community together to discuss these initiatives, and set the ground principles that brought the ecosystem where it today. Even if you have your view and opinion on AFRINIC, I think many of other organizations are working and growing achieving the goal in mind then, which is to build a strong, vibrant, and engaged real African community on Internet governance topics. Have we succeeded to have every single people or Operators engaged? No, and that is not case anywhere in the world!! But we have to be proud and celebrate the achievement while learning from the mistakes along the road to improve and aim at a brighter future.

Talking about AFRINIC, let?s not forget that it has been created, it has grown, and is able support the development of other groups to ensure a diverse ecosystem. Over 10 years, AFRINIC has made progress and found its seat within the global Internet community (while preserving its unique specificities). If unfortunately lately politics and personalization of its work is hampering its progress, we shouldn?t try to scrap all the work that many have done to get us where we are, where you can have a platform to express your view in the way you want as you do. Since 1998 the African community has grown, as has Internet penetration and its use. Let's recognize that.

I am not saying this because, like many others on this list, I was in Cotonou[1], but for preserving something deep and dear to our African culture which is called RESPECT.

I really call us all to remember something fundamental: anything we do here will not be possible if there is no community behind it. That is how the internet is technically governed. We need to focus on continuing to build and strengthen our community, nurturing its diversity and creating an environment that encourages open, candide but respectful exchange of ideas that can positively impact us all. Our diversity should be our strength not our weakness. Franche, English, Portuguese, Arabic, North, South, West, East, Central, Indian Ocean, does not define the Internet. The value it bring us does.

Pausing and taking stock over what has happened over the past 20 years is not a bad thing and if any I* or Af* organization decides to contribute and share its experience that should be appreciated.

Thank you.

- a. (Speaking in my personal capacity as an African, an AFRINIC member and member of the global community who still believe in a bright future for the organization as a catalyst for the regional community).

[1] - While I contributed to the discussion, I had no idea that my professional path would cross over with a hypothetical AFRINIC organization. I already had a very rewarding job at the time :-). I got engaged/involved then because as managing a small ISP, I felt the pain of getting IPv4 addresses from RIPE-NCC.

> On Jun 14, 2018, at 23:55, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi AfriNIC Community and AfriNIC Board,
>
> I have a number of questions around the upcoming meeting in Cotonou on the 6th of July this year ? what is being termed as a celebration of Africa IG 1998 ? 2018.
>
> Firstly ? can AFRINIC tell us, just how much money they are contributing to this event ? keeping in mind that funds that AFRINIC spend are contributed by members, I think the community may be interested to hear an answer to this.
> Secondly ? can AFRINIC tell us if they truly believe this event if appropriate at this point in time ? when the community has shown a total lack of faith in the board ? when the company sits with a legal problem of being unable to elect directors or form quorum for another AGMM ? coming on the back of a report that has to be commissioned into the conduct of AFRINIC board and management ? which has never yet been shared with this community, is it really appropriate to be spending money on, partnering with, or having anything to do with a ?celebration? of this nature.
>
> What is being celebrated? 20 years of us slowly moving towards complete collapse while the current board continues to bluntly ignore the questions about how they plan to solve the quorum issue for AGMM?s and election of new directors ? despite it having been raised time and again?
>
> Please ? I think we as a community deserve some answers ? because that event ? smacks of the AFRINIC saying ?Qu'ils mangent de la brioche?
>
> Thanks
>
> Andrew
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
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From madomey at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 17 18:19:56 2018
From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 18:19:56 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB257032C836EC5F003BFA294CEE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <61F3DC71-D5E8-4F77-9F2C-97CA1FBB8F45@akplogan.com>,
 <HE1PR0301MB257032C836EC5F003BFA294CEE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <AM0PR0602MB3603A2A3ED08EB90E254A5E7B9720@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Andrew,


You asked the following question: ?what is being termed as a celebration of Africa IG 1998 ? 2018.? Well, if you are not aware, keep in mind that in 1998, the architecture of the African Internet Ecosystem was designed in Cotonou.


The AfNOG as earlier as 1999 took the lead followed by the 2nd Af* organization called AfriNIC [ which you were a member of the Board of Directors], then followed by other Af* organizations. It is therefore NORMAL and RECOMMENDED to gratify hard work by celebrating success and indeed there is a lot of success which you blindly choose to ignore as usual.


The question that comes to mind is ?where were you when the pioneers were working so hard to design and develop the African Internet Ecosystem?? Your CV on the AfriNIC website [1] gives a clue and the community know the person Andrew Alston very well!!!   And as we all know, nobody celebrates failure, bankruptcy, closure, controversy and so on; only success calls for celebration and more reflection for improved progress. After HIGH SCHOOL, you were learning to install servers when the leaders were working at establishing institutions so at best you are a self-aggrandizing behaving like a joker trying to make yourself important by ridiculing your betters. From this perspective, attenuating condition is granted with forgiveness but does not clear you from being tagged so mischievous in this community after all public interest is not something you understand.


I encourage the community to actively  join this celebration, learn about the 2 decades journey  and discuss the future. Nothing can stop a determined community.



Marcus


PS ? Apart from your numerous attempts to destroy Afrinic (which will NEVER happen), could you please suggest another way, so we help you to FAST TRACK your exit from AfriNIC Community to RIPE or ARIN, since that is your heart desire?



[1] https<https://meeting.afrinic.net/afrinic-18/sites/default/files/img/Candidates/Andrew%20Alston/AndrewAlston_CV.pdf>://<https://meeting.afrinic.net/afrinic-18/sites/default/files/img/Candidates/Andrew%20Alston/AndrewAlston_CV.pdf>meeting.afrinic.net<https://meeting.afrinic.net/afrinic-18/sites/default/files/img/Candidates/Andrew%20Alston/AndrewAlston_CV.pdf>/afrinic-18/sites/default/files/<https://meeting.afrinic.net/afrinic-18/sites/default/files/img/Candidates/Andrew%20Alston/AndrewAlston_CV.pdf>img<https://meeting.afrinic.net/afrinic-18/sites/default/files/img/Candidates/Andrew%20Alston/AndrewAlston_CV.pdf>/Candidates/<https://meeting.afrinic.net/afrinic-18/sites/default/files/img/Candidates/Andrew%20Alston/AndrewAlston_CV.pdf>Andrew%20Alston<https://meeting.afrinic.net/afrinic-18/sites/default/files/img/Candidates/Andrew%20Alston/AndrewAlston_CV.pdf>/<https://meeting.afrinic.net/afrinic-18/sites/default/files/img/Candidates/Andrew%20Alston/AndrewAlston_CV.pdf>AndrewAlston<https://meeting.afrinic.net/afrinic-18/sites/default/files/img/Candidates/Andrew%20Alston/AndrewAlston_CV.pdf>_<https://meeting.afrinic.net/afrinic-18/sites/default/files/img/Candidates/Andrew%20Alston/AndrewAlston_CV.pdf>CV.pdf<https://meeting.afrinic.net/afrinic-18/sites/default/files/img/Candidates/Andrew%20Alston/AndrewAlston_CV.pdf>



________________________________
From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2018 6:21:21 PM
To: Adiel Akplogan (akp.com)
Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Adiel,

With all due respect ? let me respond to this piece by piece.

Firstly ? I know a LOT about the history ? please keep in mind ? I?ve been working in this industry full time now for 23 years ? since I was 16 years old.  I remember the days of the Internet sitting inside a lab where admittedly I probably wasn?t supposed to be on ircII via a system at the end of a 64bit link ? and that was way before 1998.

HISTORY does not gain respect ? because HISTORY is written by the victors so they say ? and it is only respectful to this community to look, before making decisions as to celebrate something, as to the current status quo.  When the status quo is the community crying out for reform and change ? when the status quo shows that at least some of the people who were involved back then have since engaged in a pattern of hedgemony and blant disregard for the community ? when the community has said ENOUGH ? to find the organisation that ISP?s, as members, fund, out of their earnings ? spending our money on an event that is not even appearing on calendars ? that ? is misguided at best.

Considering that there are people on that program who are claiming they haven?t even gotten invites ? and others who are saying they were there back in 98 and do not believe that ICANN?s involvement in this event is anything more than a sponsorship logo because (to paraphrase) there is nothing of substance on the agenda other than a bunch of cultural events ? that ? is a private party and something members should object to paying for.

Yes ? the internet has grown on the continent ? so I believe that it was all thanks to a meeting in 1998?  Not a chance ? Please ? keep in mind that before AFRINIC many people had space ? and it worked just fine ? and AFRINIC ? did not really make it easier to get space ? in fact ? if I recall it was an academic NREN that gave AFRINIC some of the first space it ever handed out.

Looking back at the last 20 years may be worth doing ? but not in some celebration ? for the AF* it should be a question of ? how the HELL did it go SO horribly wrong ? how did it get to the point where we sit with AFRINIC?  How did it get to a point where the top person in AFNOG stands up at the end of a meeting and insults the government of a host country because they would not hand over more cash on the basis that the the information being requested simply wasn?t accurate and wasn?t there? How did it get to the point where we want to turn our domain system into an ICO and trade it like a giant ponzi scheme in the name of ?non profit? while our governance is so shocking that we cannot get audited accounts for any of the AF* members other than AFRINIC ? and when we try and question for more details about what is THOSE accounts at an AGMM we get shut down?

You talk about respect ? respect is acknowledging that the community has stood up and said ENOUGH ? that the community showed with their ballots what they thought the state of things were ? and to do not and rub that in peoples faces by holding an event to celebrate the fact that we have ? fundamentally ? FAILED ? and need to go back to the drawing board.  This as I said ? smacks of arrogance and padding of egos and flies in the face of a community that is angry and wants reforms ? not parties.

Andrew


From: Adiel Akplogan (akp.com) [mailto:adiel at akplogan.com]
Sent: 15 June 2018 19:36
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Andrew,

I try to keep myself out of the AFRINIC?s community discussion over that past few years, but with all due respect, I would like you to please show a little bit of consideration to the history related to how thing happened in this region (even if you do not respect the people, respect the history).

First of all, the event in Cotonou in 1998 was not only about AFRINIC, but the whole internet technical governance landscape. That is where discussion about other AF* initiatives such as AFNOC, AfTLD, AfREN ? started. There were people who spent their time and resources to get the community together to discuss these initiatives, and set the ground principles that brought the ecosystem where it today. Even if you have your view and opinion on AFRINIC, I think many of other organizations are working and growing achieving the goal in mind then, which is to build a strong, vibrant, and engaged real African community on Internet governance topics. Have we succeeded to have every single people or Operators engaged? No, and that is not case anywhere in the world!! But we have to be proud and celebrate the achievement while learning from the mistakes along the road to improve and aim at a brighter future.

Talking about AFRINIC, let?s not forget that it has been created, it has grown, and is able support the development of other groups to ensure a diverse ecosystem. Over 10 years, AFRINIC has made progress and found its seat within the global Internet community (while preserving its unique specificities). If unfortunately lately politics and personalization of its work is hampering its progress, we shouldn?t try to scrap all the work that many have done to get us where we are, where you can have a platform to express your view in the way you want as you do. Since 1998 the African community has grown, as has Internet penetration and its use. Let's recognize that.

I am not saying this because, like many others on this list, I was in Cotonou[1], but for preserving something deep and dear to our African culture which is called RESPECT.

I really call us all to remember something fundamental: anything we do here will not be possible if there is no community behind it. That is how the internet is technically governed. We need to focus on continuing to build and strengthen our community, nurturing its diversity and creating an environment that encourages open, candide but respectful exchange of ideas that can positively impact us all. Our diversity should be our strength not our weakness. Franche, English, Portuguese, Arabic, North, South, West, East, Central, Indian Ocean, does not define the Internet. The value it bring us does.

Pausing and taking stock over what has happened over the past 20 years is not a bad thing and if any I* or Af* organization decides to contribute and share its experience that should be appreciated.

Thank you.

- a. (Speaking in my personal capacity as an African, an AFRINIC member and member of the global community who still believe in a bright future for the organization as a catalyst for the regional community).

[1] - While I contributed to the discussion, I had no idea that my professional path would cross over with a hypothetical AFRINIC organization. I already had a very rewarding job at the time :-). I got engaged/involved then because as managing a small ISP, I felt the pain of getting IPv4 addresses from RIPE-NCC.

> On Jun 14, 2018, at 23:55, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi AfriNIC Community and AfriNIC Board,
>
> I have a number of questions around the upcoming meeting in Cotonou on the 6th of July this year ? what is being termed as a celebration of Africa IG 1998 ? 2018.
>
> Firstly ? can AFRINIC tell us, just how much money they are contributing to this event ? keeping in mind that funds that AFRINIC spend are contributed by members, I think the community may be interested to hear an answer to this.
> Secondly ? can AFRINIC tell us if they truly believe this event if appropriate at this point in time ? when the community has shown a total lack of faith in the board ? when the company sits with a legal problem of being unable to elect directors or form quorum for another AGMM ? coming on the back of a report that has to be commissioned into the conduct of AFRINIC board and management ? which has never yet been shared with this community, is it really appropriate to be spending money on, partnering with, or having anything to do with a ?celebration? of this nature.
>
> What is being celebrated? 20 years of us slowly moving towards complete collapse while the current board continues to bluntly ignore the questions about how they plan to solve the quorum issue for AGMM?s and election of new directors ? despite it having been raised time and again?
>
> Please ? I think we as a community deserve some answers ? because that event ? smacks of the AFRINIC saying ?Qu'ils mangent de la brioche?
>
> Thanks
>
> Andrew
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
-------------- next part --------------
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From funga.roho at yandex.com  Sun Jun 17 19:40:52 2018
From: funga.roho at yandex.com (Kangamutima zabika Christophe)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 20:40:52 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Community-Discuss Digest, Vol 343, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1529150404.20591.community-discuss@afrinic.net>
References: <mailman.3.1529150404.20591.community-discuss@afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <7564521529264452@web3g.yandex.ru>

Andrew,

Il est unanime que tu ne respectes rien qui ne bonifie pas ton ?go et ton arrogance. On t'a parl? d'une histoire de la naissance d'un courant qui aurait donn? naissance ? l'embryon de la communaut? d'internet d'aujourd'hui et de l'ecosyst?me d'internet en afrique et toi tu nous parles de vainqueur racontant l'histoire. Tous tes propos sont essentiellement de nature bellig?rants m?me quand tu n'as aucun challenger.  C'est comme tu passes ton temps ? ergoter des calomnies, des balivernes naus?abondes soit disant au nom de la communaut?.  Tout le monde sait ton seul r?le est de torpiller toutes les initiatives qui ne d?coulent pas 
de ceux qui pensent pas comme toi, c'est du mercenariat de bas ?tage.

KANGAMUTIMA








From noah at neo.co.tz  Sun Jun 17 20:49:09 2018
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 23:49:09 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <61F3DC71-D5E8-4F77-9F2C-97CA1FBB8F45@akplogan.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <61F3DC71-D5E8-4F77-9F2C-97CA1FBB8F45@akplogan.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqgTWbWx=j9QQQ++s6kk6U-i_G2VJgBD3MTKHqQvfuM=QLMRQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Adiel

Yes indeed history is important and no progress anywhere in the world has
ever been possible and successful without  challenges and indeed some
celebration is worthwhile as its through reflection that history can be
used as bench mark for more anticipated success.

I personally  dont see what the fuss is. AfriNIC has an outreach program in
place and they often support and sponsor different events time after time
where they see relevance and I tend to believe this is one of those similar
events.

I have been involved with capacity building organisations that have in the
past requested for some sort of support from AfriNIC and they manage to
send some funding whenever possible based on I believe a budget they always
set aside for the same.

We once requested AfriNIC for some funding support for a capacity building
event in Dar es salaam a year ago and even though AfriNIC had not planned
for it, they did manage to support us with some little funding and from the
2017 annual report I see a mention of the organisation as one of the many
AfriNIC supported.

My 2 bit coins

Noah
On 15 Jun 2018 19:43, "Adiel Akplogan (akp.com)" <adiel at akplogan.com> wrote:

> Andrew,
>
> I try to keep myself out of the AFRINIC?s community discussion over that
> past few years, but with all due respect, I would like you to please show a
> little bit of consideration to the history related to how thing happened in
> this region (even if you do not respect the people, respect the history).
>
> First of all, the event in Cotonou in 1998 was not only about AFRINIC, but
> the whole internet technical governance landscape. That is where discussion
> about other AF* initiatives such as AFNOC, AfTLD, AfREN ? started. There
> were people who spent their time and resources to get the community
> together to discuss these initiatives, and set the ground principles that
> brought the ecosystem where it today. Even if you have your view and
> opinion on AFRINIC, I think many of other organizations are working and
> growing achieving the goal in mind then, which is to build a strong,
> vibrant, and engaged real African community on Internet governance topics.
> Have we succeeded to have every single people or Operators engaged? No, and
> that is not case anywhere in the world!! But we have to be proud and
> celebrate the achievement while learning from the mistakes along the road
> to improve and aim at a brighter future.
>
> Talking about AFRINIC, let?s not forget that it has been created, it has
> grown, and is able support the development of other groups to ensure a
> diverse ecosystem. Over 10 years, AFRINIC has made progress and found its
> seat within the global Internet community (while preserving its unique
> specificities). If unfortunately lately politics and personalization of its
> work is hampering its progress, we shouldn?t try to scrap all the work that
> many have done to get us where we are, where you can have a platform to
> express your view in the way you want as you do. Since 1998 the African
> community has grown, as has Internet penetration and its use. Let's
> recognize that.
>
> I am not saying this because, like many others on this list, I was in
> Cotonou[1], but for preserving something deep and dear to our African
> culture which is called RESPECT.
>
> I really call us all to remember something fundamental: anything we do
> here will not be possible if there is no community behind it. That is how
> the internet is technically governed. We need to focus on continuing to
> build and strengthen our community, nurturing its diversity and creating an
> environment that encourages open, candide but respectful exchange of ideas
> that can positively impact us all. Our diversity should be our strength not
> our weakness. Franche, English, Portuguese, Arabic, North, South, West,
> East, Central, Indian Ocean, does not define the Internet. The value it
> bring us does.
>
> Pausing and taking stock over what has happened over the past 20 years is
> not a bad thing and if any I* or Af* organization decides to contribute and
> share its experience that should be appreciated.
>
> Thank you.
>
> - a. (Speaking in my personal capacity as an African, an AFRINIC member
> and member of the global community who still believe in a bright future for
> the organization as a catalyst for the regional community).
>
> [1] - While I contributed to the discussion, I had no idea that my
> professional path would cross over with a hypothetical AFRINIC
> organization. I already had a very rewarding job at the time :-). I got
> engaged/involved then because as managing a small ISP, I felt the pain of
> getting IPv4 addresses from RIPE-NCC.
>
> > On Jun 14, 2018, at 23:55, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.
> com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi AfriNIC Community and AfriNIC Board,
> >
> > I have a number of questions around the upcoming meeting in Cotonou on
> the 6th of July this year ? what is being termed as a celebration of Africa
> IG 1998 ? 2018.
> >
> > Firstly ? can AFRINIC tell us, just how much money they are contributing
> to this event ? keeping in mind that funds that AFRINIC spend are
> contributed by members, I think the community may be interested to hear an
> answer to this.
> > Secondly ? can AFRINIC tell us if they truly believe this event if
> appropriate at this point in time ? when the community has shown a total
> lack of faith in the board ? when the company sits with a legal problem of
> being unable to elect directors or form quorum for another AGMM ? coming on
> the back of a report that has to be commissioned into the conduct of
> AFRINIC board and management ? which has never yet been shared with this
> community, is it really appropriate to be spending money on, partnering
> with, or having anything to do with a ?celebration? of this nature.
> >
> > What is being celebrated?  20 years of us slowly moving towards complete
> collapse while the current board continues to bluntly ignore the questions
> about how they plan to solve the quorum issue for AGMM?s and election of
> new directors ? despite it having been raised time and again?
> >
> > Please ? I think we as a community deserve some answers ? because that
> event ? smacks of the AFRINIC saying ?Qu'ils mangent de la brioche?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Community-Discuss mailing list
> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From dabu.sifiso at yandex.com  Mon Jun 18 11:57:58 2018
From: dabu.sifiso at yandex.com (Dabu Sifiso)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 06:57:58 -0500
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAEqgTWbWx=j9QQQ++s6kk6U-i_G2VJgBD3MTKHqQvfuM=QLMRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <61F3DC71-D5E8-4F77-9F2C-97CA1FBB8F45@akplogan.com>
 <CAEqgTWbWx=j9QQQ++s6kk6U-i_G2VJgBD3MTKHqQvfuM=QLMRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6862501529323078@web52g.yandex.ru>


Noah,

Thank you, I didn't know AFRINIC was listing the events attended or supported and then precise specification of which ones are sponsored.
For anyone interested, it seems there was 8 sponsored external meetings in 2017 which is quite a good amount.

https://www.afrinic.net/images/doc/annual-report-2017.pdf
Page 29 for anyone interested to actually double check the information.

Do you by any chance know where does this type of sponsoring fall on page 33?

I guess it is either one or both of the following categories:

Outreach initiatives
39,893 US$ out of a planned budget of 101,000 US$
Community Support
247,147 US$ out of a planned budget of 262,000US$

I would guess "Outreach initiatives" since page 29 calls it "outreach and Internet governance"
We have a list of 8 events sponsored so that average at just about 5000 US$ per event.

Seems fairly reasonable.

But is then what is community support?
Because if that is used to sponsor internet meetings as well, then we are at around 31,000 US$ per event on average out of that community support budget.
That starts to be a lot of money per sponsoring agreement, but I guess could be considered reasonable for larger events.

Or is "community support" for the transport, hotel and per diem of community members who get invited and financially compensated to attend AFRINIC meetings and AFRINIC related events?




17.06.2018, 15:51, "Noah" <noah at neo.co.tz>:
> Hi Adiel
>
> Yes indeed history is important and no progress anywhere in the world has ever been possible and successful without? challenges and indeed some celebration is worthwhile as its through reflection that history can be used as bench mark for more anticipated success.
>
> I personally? dont see what the fuss is. AfriNIC has an outreach program in place and they often support and sponsor different events time after time where they see relevance and I tend to believe this is one of those similar events.
>
> I have been involved with capacity building organisations that have in the past requested for some sort of support from AfriNIC and they manage to send some funding whenever possible based on I believe a budget they always set aside for the same.
>
> We once requested AfriNIC for some funding support for a capacity building event in Dar es salaam a year ago and even though AfriNIC had not planned for it, they did manage to support us with some little funding and from the 2017 annual report I see a mention of the organisation as one of the many AfriNIC supported.
>
> My 2 bit coins
>
> Noah
> On 15 Jun 2018 19:43, "Adiel Akplogan (akp.com)" <adiel at akplogan.com> wrote:
>> Andrew,
>>
>> I try to keep myself out of the AFRINIC?s community discussion over that past few years, but with all due respect, I would like you to please show a little bit of consideration to the history related to how thing happened in this region (even if you do not respect the people, respect the history).
>>
>> First of all, the event in Cotonou in 1998 was not only about AFRINIC, but the whole internet technical governance landscape. That is where discussion about other AF* initiatives such as AFNOC, AfTLD, AfREN ? started. There were people who spent their time and resources to get the community together to discuss these initiatives, and set the ground principles that brought the ecosystem where it today. Even if you have your view and opinion on AFRINIC, I think many of other organizations are working and growing achieving the goal in mind then, which is to build a strong, vibrant, and engaged real African community on Internet governance topics. Have we succeeded to have every single people or Operators engaged? No, and that is not case anywhere in the world!! But we have to be proud and celebrate the achievement while learning from the mistakes along the road to improve and aim at a brighter future.
>>
>> Talking about AFRINIC, let?s not forget that it has been created, it has grown, and is able support the development of other groups to ensure a diverse ecosystem. Over 10 years, AFRINIC has made progress and found its seat within the global Internet community (while preserving its unique specificities). If unfortunately lately politics and personalization of its work is hampering its progress, we shouldn?t try to scrap all the work that many have done to get us where we are, where you can have a platform to express your view in the way you want as you do. Since 1998 the African community has grown, as has Internet penetration and its use. Let's recognize that.
>>
>> I am not saying this because, like many others on this list, I was in Cotonou[1], but for preserving something deep and dear to our African culture which is called RESPECT.
>>
>> I really call us all to remember something fundamental: anything we do here will not be possible if there is no community behind it. That is how the internet is technically governed. We need to focus on continuing to build and strengthen our community, nurturing its diversity and creating an environment that encourages open, candide but respectful exchange of ideas that can positively impact us all. Our diversity should be our strength not our weakness. Franche, English, Portuguese, Arabic, North, South, West, East, Central, Indian Ocean, does not define the Internet. The value it bring us does.
>>
>> Pausing and taking stock over what has happened over the past 20 years is not a bad thing and if any I* or Af* organization decides to contribute and share its experience that should be appreciated.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> - a. (Speaking in my personal capacity as an African, an AFRINIC member and member of the global community who still believe in a bright future for the organization as a catalyst for the regional community).
>>
>> [1] - While I contributed to the discussion, I had no idea that my professional path would cross over with a hypothetical AFRINIC organization. I already had a very rewarding job at the time :-). I got engaged/involved then because as managing a small ISP, I felt the pain of getting IPv4 addresses from RIPE-NCC.
>>
>>> On Jun 14, 2018, at 23:55, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi AfriNIC Community and AfriNIC Board,
>>>
>>> I have a number of questions around the upcoming meeting in Cotonou on the 6th of July this year ? what is being termed as a celebration of Africa IG 1998 ? 2018.
>>>
>>> Firstly ? can AFRINIC tell us, just how much money they are contributing to this event ? keeping in mind that funds that AFRINIC spend are contributed by members, I think the community may be interested to hear an answer to this.
>>> Secondly ? can AFRINIC tell us if they truly believe this event if appropriate at this point in time ? when the community has shown a total lack of faith in the board ? when the company sits with a legal problem of being unable to elect directors or form quorum for another AGMM ? coming on the back of a report that has to be commissioned into the conduct of AFRINIC board and management ? which has never yet been shared with this community, is it really appropriate to be spending money on, partnering with, or having anything to do with a ?celebration? of this nature.
>>>
>>> What is being celebrated?? 20 years of us slowly moving towards complete collapse while the current board continues to bluntly ignore the questions about how they plan to solve the quorum issue for AGMM?s and election of new directors ? despite it having been raised time and again?
>>>
>>> Please ? I think we as a community deserve some answers ? because that event ? smacks of the AFRINIC saying ?Qu'ils mangent de la brioche?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> ,
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss



From alan.barrett at afrinic.net  Mon Jun 18 13:59:13 2018
From: alan.barrett at afrinic.net (Alan Barrett)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 17:59:13 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <6862501529323078@web52g.yandex.ru>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <61F3DC71-D5E8-4F77-9F2C-97CA1FBB8F45@akplogan.com>
 <CAEqgTWbWx=j9QQQ++s6kk6U-i_G2VJgBD3MTKHqQvfuM=QLMRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <6862501529323078@web52g.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <7702C564-3CAD-4DC2-908A-977150EA38E0@afrinic.net>



> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:57, Dabu Sifiso <dabu.sifiso at yandex.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Noah,
> 
> Thank you, I didn't know AFRINIC was listing the events attended or supported and then precise specification of which ones are sponsored.
> For anyone interested, it seems there was 8 sponsored external meetings in 2017 which is quite a good amount.
> 
> https://www.afrinic.net/images/doc/annual-report-2017.pdf
> Page 29 for anyone interested to actually double check the information.
> 
> Do you by any chance know where does this type of sponsoring fall on page 33?
> 
> I guess it is either one or both of the following categories:
> 
> Outreach initiatives
> 39,893 US$ out of a planned budget of 101,000 US$
> Community Support
> 247,147 US$ out of a planned budget of 262,000US$

Sponsorship of events comes out of the Community Support budget.  Here?s how we spent that money in 2017:

Contribution to FIRE grants and awards programme: $71,000
AFRINIC?s share of NRO payment to ICANN:          $59,403
AFRINIC?s share of other NRO expenses:            $40,395
Fellowship programme:                             $44,875
Travel support for speakers at AFRINIC events:    $ 4,457
AFNOG sponsorship:                                $10,000
Sponsorship of other events ($1k to $3k each):    $17,000
TOTAL:                                            $247,130

Regards,

Alan Barrett
CEO, AFRINIC






From dabu.sifiso at yandex.com  Mon Jun 18 15:57:29 2018
From: dabu.sifiso at yandex.com (Dabu Sifiso)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:57:29 -0500
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <7702C564-3CAD-4DC2-908A-977150EA38E0@afrinic.net>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <61F3DC71-D5E8-4F77-9F2C-97CA1FBB8F45@akplogan.com>
 <CAEqgTWbWx=j9QQQ++s6kk6U-i_G2VJgBD3MTKHqQvfuM=QLMRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <6862501529323078@web52g.yandex.ru>
 <7702C564-3CAD-4DC2-908A-977150EA38E0@afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <601551529337449@web57j.yandex.ru>






18.06.2018, 09:01, "Alan Barrett" <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>:
>> ?On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:57, Dabu Sifiso <dabu.sifiso at yandex.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?Noah,
>>
>> ?Thank you, I didn't know AFRINIC was listing the events attended or supported and then precise specification of which ones are sponsored.
>> ?For anyone interested, it seems there was 8 sponsored external meetings in 2017 which is quite a good amount.
>>
>> ?https://www.afrinic.net/images/doc/annual-report-2017.pdf
>> ?Page 29 for anyone interested to actually double check the information.
>>
>> ?Do you by any chance know where does this type of sponsoring fall on page 33?
>>
>> ?I guess it is either one or both of the following categories:
>>
>> ?Outreach initiatives
>> ?39,893 US$ out of a planned budget of 101,000 US$
>> ?Community Support
>> ?247,147 US$ out of a planned budget of 262,000US$
>
> Sponsorship of events comes out of the Community Support budget. Here?s how we spent that money in 2017:
>
> Contribution to FIRE grants and awards programme: $71,000
> AFRINIC?s share of NRO payment to ICANN: $59,403
> AFRINIC?s share of other NRO expenses: $40,395
> Fellowship programme: $44,875
> Travel support for speakers at AFRINIC events: $ 4,457
> AFNOG sponsorship: $10,000
> Sponsorship of other events ($1k to $3k each): $17,000
> TOTAL: $247,130
>

Thank you for the breakdown.


> Regards,
>
> Alan Barrett
> CEO, AFRINIC
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss



From alan.barrett at afrinic.net  Tue Jun 19 13:15:24 2018
From: alan.barrett at afrinic.net (Alan Barrett)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 17:15:24 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>



> On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>  
> So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events calendar?  I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.

AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was invited to participate.  AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.

Regards,

Alan Barrett
CEO, AFRINIC




From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Tue Jun 19 13:21:39 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 13:21:39 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Alan,

Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:

Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
Sponsorship $3000
Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
5 total people

Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?

I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here

Andrew

From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:15
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net
Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting



> On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
> So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.

AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.

Regards,

Alan Barrett
CEO, AFRINIC


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
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From alan.barrett at afrinic.net  Tue Jun 19 13:31:04 2018
From: alan.barrett at afrinic.net (Alan Barrett)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 17:31:04 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss]  Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <E8CDBBB0-4B23-4ABA-9216-DC3271098268@afrinic.net>



> On 19 Jun 2018, at 17:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> 
> Alan,
>  
> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship 

The sponsorship is a lump sum.  There is no additional or separate amount for a cocktail.

> ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:
>  
> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
> Sponsorship $3000
> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
> 5 total people
>  
> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?

That sounds plausible, though it's more likely to be 4 people, not 5.

Alan Barrett




From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Tue Jun 19 13:40:55 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 13:40:55 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss]  Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <E8CDBBB0-4B23-4ABA-9216-DC3271098268@afrinic.net>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <E8CDBBB0-4B23-4ABA-9216-DC3271098268@afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB257099600A65E135AC210AD5EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Sorry,

Last question ? why is this event not on the AFRINIC Event calendar (or the ISOC event calendar)

Andrew


From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:31
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net
Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting



> On 19 Jun 2018, at 17:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
> Alan,
>
> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship

The sponsorship is a lump sum. There is no additional or separate amount for a cocktail.

> ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:
>
> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
> Sponsorship $3000
> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
> 5 total people
>
> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?

That sounds plausible, though it's more likely to be 4 people, not 5.

Alan Barrett


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
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From Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net  Tue Jun 19 13:46:35 2018
From: Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net (Omo Oaiya)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 14:46:35 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss]  Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB257099600A65E135AC210AD5EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <E8CDBBB0-4B23-4ABA-9216-DC3271098268@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257099600A65E135AC210AD5EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <8D710037-B6F1-4002-BF35-3552FE1AD09D@wacren.net>

This line of questioning is unnecessary and unbecoming.   I am surprised the CEO has time to respond to this.

Omo

> On 19 Jun 2018, at 14:40, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> 
> Sorry, 
>  
> Last question ? why is this event not on the AFRINIC Event calendar (or the ISOC event calendar)
>  
> Andrew
>  
>  
> From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net <mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>] 
> Sent: 19 June 2018 16:31
> To: community-discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
> Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net <mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>  
> 
> 
> > On 19 Jun 2018, at 17:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > Alan,
> > 
> > Does this include the cocktail sponsorship 
> 
> The sponsorship is a lump sum. There is no additional or separate amount for a cocktail.
> 
> > ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:
> > 
> > Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
> > Sponsorship $3000
> > Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
> > 5 total people
> > 
> > Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
> 
> That sounds plausible, though it's more likely to be 4 people, not 5.
> 
> Alan Barrett
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>_______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
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From alan.barrett at afrinic.net  Tue Jun 19 13:49:39 2018
From: alan.barrett at afrinic.net (Alan Barrett)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 17:49:39 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss]  Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB257099600A65E135AC210AD5EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <E8CDBBB0-4B23-4ABA-9216-DC3271098268@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257099600A65E135AC210AD5EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <A76191D7-B73E-4C91-8338-63883B8FF353@afrinic.net>



> On 19 Jun 2018, at 17:40, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> 
> Sorry, 
>  
> Last question ? why is this event not on the AFRINIC Event calendar (or the ISOC event calendar)

It is on the AFRINIC event calendar.  It was added to the calendar within a few days of the event being announced.

Alan Barrett




From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Tue Jun 19 13:51:23 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 13:51:23 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss]  Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <8D710037-B6F1-4002-BF35-3552FE1AD09D@wacren.net>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <E8CDBBB0-4B23-4ABA-9216-DC3271098268@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257099600A65E135AC210AD5EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <8D710037-B6F1-4002-BF35-3552FE1AD09D@wacren.net>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB25703F46F21EE09951E96306EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Omo,

As a member that contributes fees to the organisation ? at a rate of almost $50k a year ? I have every single right in the world ? to understand how that money is being spent.  And I will continue to ask ? especially when an event is being held that is being paid for that is not on any event calendar.

While I realize that the organisation you work for ? got their space on the back of a grant and didn?t even pay the allocation fee or the first few years of having it ? and you are a small member ? so its tiny amounts of money ? others of us ? actually would like to know where our cash is being spent to guide other decisions.

Andrew


From: Omo Oaiya [mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net]
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:47
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

This line of questioning is unnecessary and unbecoming.   I am surprised the CEO has time to respond to this.

Omo

On 19 Jun 2018, at 14:40, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:

Sorry,

Last question ? why is this event not on the AFRINIC Event calendar (or the ISOC event calendar)

Andrew


From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:31
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting



> On 19 Jun 2018, at 17:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
> Alan,
>
> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship

The sponsorship is a lump sum. There is no additional or separate amount for a cocktail.

> ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:
>
> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
> Sponsorship $3000
> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
> 5 total people
>
> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?

That sounds plausible, though it's more likely to be 4 people, not 5.

Alan Barrett


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

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From Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net  Tue Jun 19 14:11:00 2018
From: Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net (Omo Oaiya)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 15:11:00 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss]  Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB25703F46F21EE09951E96306EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <E8CDBBB0-4B23-4ABA-9216-DC3271098268@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257099600A65E135AC210AD5EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <8D710037-B6F1-4002-BF35-3552FE1AD09D@wacren.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB25703F46F21EE09951E96306EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <7B4B6174-0A9A-4804-8E71-821AE373397F@wacren.net>

Andrew,

I try to avoid you so I don?t get drawn into time-wasting discussions.   I guess I am reacting to your flippant disregard for AFRINIC origins and your attempt to disparage those that have worked to get us here. 

> On 19 Jun 2018, at 14:51, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> 
> Omo,
>  
> As a member that contributes fees to the organisation ? at a rate of almost $50k a year ? I have every single right in the world ? to understand how that money is being spent.  And I will continue to ask ? especially when an event is being held that is being paid for that is not on any event calendar.


I have not suggested you do not have the right to question.  I have queried their nature and more importantly the availability of the CEO to respond question by question.  

>  
> While I realize that the organisation you work for ? got their space on the back of a grant and didn?t even pay the allocation fee or the first few years of having it ? and you are a small member ? so its tiny amounts of money ? others of us ? actually would like to know where our cash is being spent to guide other decisions.
>  

 I am a small member who does not expect this level of micromanagement from a CEO.


> Andrew
>  
>  
> From: Omo Oaiya [mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net <mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>] 
> Sent: 19 June 2018 16:47
> To: community-discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net <mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>  
> This line of questioning is unnecessary and unbecoming.   I am surprised the CEO has time to respond to this.
>  
> Omo
>  
> On 19 Jun 2018, at 14:40, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>  
> Sorry, 
>  
> Last question ? why is this event not on the AFRINIC Event calendar (or the ISOC event calendar)
>  
> Andrew
>  
>  
> From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net <mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>] 
> Sent: 19 June 2018 16:31
> To: community-discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
> Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net <mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>  
> 
> 
> > On 19 Jun 2018, at 17:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > Alan,
> > 
> > Does this include the cocktail sponsorship 
> 
> The sponsorship is a lump sum. There is no additional or separate amount for a cocktail.
> 
> > ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:
> > 
> > Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
> > Sponsorship $3000
> > Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
> > 5 total people
> > 
> > Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
> 
> That sounds plausible, though it's more likely to be 4 people, not 5.
> 
> Alan Barrett
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
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From wametozion at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 14:11:04 2018
From: wametozion at gmail.com (William Ametozion)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 14:11:04 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <8D710037-B6F1-4002-BF35-3552FE1AD09D@wacren.net>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <E8CDBBB0-4B23-4ABA-9216-DC3271098268@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257099600A65E135AC210AD5EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <8D710037-B6F1-4002-BF35-3552FE1AD09D@wacren.net>
Message-ID: <CAP6btyBd2scO4rpYSxHZVzxk0fyp_BWA_tGeFQT6i0cfuqEnMw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Omo,

It seems that Andrew Alston has assumed a new role as AfriNIC Auditor.

Please, allow him to work with the CEO.

Thanks


William A.

On 19 June 2018 at 13:46, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> wrote:

> This line of questioning is unnecessary and unbecoming.   I am surprised
> the CEO has time to respond to this.
>
> Omo
>
> On 19 Jun 2018, at 14:40, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> wrote:
>
> Sorry,
>
> Last question ? why is this event not on the AFRINIC Event calendar (or
> the ISOC event calendar)
>
> Andrew
>
>
> *From:* Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net
> <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>]
> *Sent:* 19 June 2018 16:31
> *To:* community-discuss at afrinic.net
> *Cc:* AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
>
>
> > On 19 Jun 2018, at 17:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Alan,
> >
> > Does this include the cocktail sponsorship
>
> The sponsorship is a lump sum. There is no additional or separate amount
> for a cocktail.
>
> > ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to
> work out the approximate cost of attendance:
> >
> > Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) -
> $2049.50
> > Sponsorship $3000
> > Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars
> per person (conservatively)
> > 5 total people
> >
> > Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
>
> That sounds plausible, though it's more likely to be 4 people, not 5.
>
> Alan Barrett
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From saul at enetworks.co.za  Tue Jun 19 14:31:01 2018
From: saul at enetworks.co.za (Saul Stein)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 16:31:01 +0200 (SAST)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [Spam] Re: [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <7B4B6174-0A9A-4804-8E71-821AE373397F@wacren.net>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <E8CDBBB0-4B23-4ABA-9216-DC3271098268@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257099600A65E135AC210AD5EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <8D710037-B6F1-4002-BF35-3552FE1AD09D@wacren.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB25703F46F21EE09951E96306EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <7B4B6174-0A9A-4804-8E71-821AE373397F@wacren.net>
Message-ID: <140101d407da$255b4370$7011ca50$@enetworks.co.za>

Actually these questions and answers are rather interesting. We weren?t 
allowed to ask them at the AGMM, so I guess now is the time.



I am intrigued to see how much money is given to organisations that don?t 
seem to have accountability what they get.





From: Omo Oaiya [mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net]
Sent: 19 June 2018 04:11 PM
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List 
<board at afrinic.net>
Subject: [Spam] Re: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting



Andrew,



I try to avoid you so I don?t get drawn into time-wasting discussions.   I 
guess I am reacting to your flippant disregard for AFRINIC origins and your 
attempt to disparage those that have worked to get us here.



On 19 Jun 2018, at 14:51, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com 
<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> > wrote:



Omo,



As a member that contributes fees to the organisation ? at a rate of almost 
$50k a year ? I have every single right in the world ? to understand how 
that money is being spent.  And I will continue to ask ? especially when an 
event is being held that is being paid for that is not on any event 
calendar.





I have not suggested you do not have the right to question.  I have queried 
their nature and more importantly the availability of the CEO to respond 
question by question.





While I realize that the organisation you work for ? got their space on the 
back of a grant and didn?t even pay the allocation fee or the first few 
years of having it ? and you are a small member ? so its tiny amounts of 
money ? others of us ? actually would like to know where our cash is being 
spent to guide other decisions.





 I am a small member who does not expect this level of micromanagement from 
a CEO.





Andrew





From: Omo Oaiya [ <mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net> mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net]
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:47
To:  <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net> community-discuss at afrinic.net; 
AFRINIC Board of Directors' List < <mailto:board at afrinic.net> 
board at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting



This line of questioning is unnecessary and unbecoming.   I am surprised the 
CEO has time to respond to this.



Omo



On 19 Jun 2018, at 14:40, Andrew Alston < 
<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> 
wrote:



Sorry,



Last question ? why is this event not on the AFRINIC Event calendar (or the 
ISOC event calendar)



Andrew





From: Alan Barrett [ <mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net> 
mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:31
To:  <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net> community-discuss at afrinic.net
Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List < <mailto:board at afrinic.net> 
board at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting





> On 19 Jun 2018, at 17:21, Andrew Alston < 
> <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> 
> wrote:
>
> Alan,
>
> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship

The sponsorship is a lump sum. There is no additional or separate amount for 
a cocktail.

> ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work 
> out the approximate cost of attendance:
>
> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - 
> $2049.50
> Sponsorship $3000
> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per 
> person (conservatively)
> 5 total people
>
> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?

That sounds plausible, though it's more likely to be 4 people, not 5.

Alan Barrett


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
 <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
 <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss> 
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
 <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
 <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss> 
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss



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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Tue Jun 19 14:45:13 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 14:45:13 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAP6btyBd2scO4rpYSxHZVzxk0fyp_BWA_tGeFQT6i0cfuqEnMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <E8CDBBB0-4B23-4ABA-9216-DC3271098268@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257099600A65E135AC210AD5EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <8D710037-B6F1-4002-BF35-3552FE1AD09D@wacren.net>
 <CAP6btyBd2scO4rpYSxHZVzxk0fyp_BWA_tGeFQT6i0cfuqEnMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB2570F6BCF953FEFB3DC71537EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

New Role?

I was audit-co chair for a long time ? No longer on the board ? but I still feel the need to know how money is being spent when it?s the members money that is being shelled out.

I point out ? there was a point that AFRINIC was trading at an $80k a year loss? through the work of certain people and changes in the way things were done ? that turned around ? and we made some nice surplus and rescued the organisation from what was a path to bankruptcy (and I have graphs, that are public, and have been presented before that can demonstrate this) to a healthy financial position.

My concern ? if we don?t keep the reigns on ? how long before we have another 2012 -> 2014, where we made a combined forex adjusted loss of $481,059? Our travel costs increased by a whopping 26.8% in the 2017 financial year ? to a level that they have not been at since 2014.

By comparison ? our net incoming increased by just 10.7% in the same period.

Post the closing of the financials in 2015 ? as per the AFS ? a strategic reserve was created ? and one of AFRINIC?s biggest arguments has been ? we make surplus to build up the reserve.  An initial $250k was placed in this reserve at time of creation (Board resolution 201511.261),  an additional $300k was placed into this reserve in November 2016 under board resolution 201611.316, and a further $500k was placed into this in April 2017 ? to bring the reserve to $1,056,860.  Yet ? now in June of 2018 ? despite the published surpluses ? we have seen NO growth in the strategic reserve fund in more than a year ? what gives?  That?s the whole stated reason for generating the surplus?


So yes ? call me the auditor if you want ? I am simply the guy that is watching the financials ? very closely ? because I for one, want to know that the money that I contribute to this organisation is being spent to the benefit of the members and the community  - and so ? the questions will keep coming

Andrew


From: William Ametozion [mailto:wametozion at gmail.com]
Sent: 19 June 2018 17:11
To: Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>
Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Hi Omo,

It seems that Andrew Alston has assumed a new role as AfriNIC Auditor.

Please, allow him to work with the CEO.

Thanks


William A.

On 19 June 2018 at 13:46, Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net<mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>> wrote:
This line of questioning is unnecessary and unbecoming.   I am surprised the CEO has time to respond to this.

Omo

On 19 Jun 2018, at 14:40, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:

Sorry,

Last question ? why is this event not on the AFRINIC Event calendar (or the ISOC event calendar)

Andrew


From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:31
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting



> On 19 Jun 2018, at 17:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
> Alan,
>
> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship

The sponsorship is a lump sum. There is no additional or separate amount for a cocktail.

> ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:
>
> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
> Sponsorship $3000
> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
> 5 total people
>
> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?

That sounds plausible, though it's more likely to be 4 people, not 5.

Alan Barrett


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

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From noah at neo.co.tz  Tue Jun 19 14:47:30 2018
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 17:47:30 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB25703F46F21EE09951E96306EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <E8CDBBB0-4B23-4ABA-9216-DC3271098268@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257099600A65E135AC210AD5EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <8D710037-B6F1-4002-BF35-3552FE1AD09D@wacren.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB25703F46F21EE09951E96306EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqgTWbD6Dj4GOLij+3nDBK4oC3mNsoj=G0xHgy1HteOHVA8gw@mail.gmail.com>

Members,

The organization has a board that did it fiduciary duty and approved a
budget that was set aside for various activities for the financial year
2018. Its therefore the CEO's responsibility to manage the said budget
since this is part of his responsibility.

Now, If the CEO received an invitation to an event as such and he made an
informed decision to attend the event and calendared it as per his recent
email, then I don't really see were the problem is to be honest.

I as a member have no problem that AfriNIC is attending this event.

Cheers,
Noah
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Tue Jun 19 14:56:58 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 14:56:58 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [Spam] Re: [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <140101d407da$255b4370$7011ca50$@enetworks.co.za>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <E8CDBBB0-4B23-4ABA-9216-DC3271098268@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257099600A65E135AC210AD5EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <8D710037-B6F1-4002-BF35-3552FE1AD09D@wacren.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB25703F46F21EE09951E96306EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <7B4B6174-0A9A-4804-8E71-821AE373397F@wacren.net>
 <140101d407da$255b4370$7011ca50$@enetworks.co.za>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB2570E098408B48C9D0159082EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

You mean the $10k to AFNOG who has not produced an audited financial statement in 10 years?
The $17k to sponsor other meetings unspecified?
The (Roughly) $62k spent flying staff to off continent meetings ? with no explanation to the membership as to how this benefits the members who are paying for it?
The combined 45 staff flown to the two AfriNIC meetings in 2017 ? with no explanation as to why they were needed there (estimated cost of $90k)

The fact that staff cost actual to September 2017 was sitting at $1,382 million ? and in one quarter suddenly rose by almost 40% to close the year at $2,298,586 ? I?d love to hear how you spend 40% of your HR budget in a quarter of the year ? because if that?s bonuses ? someone give me a job.

And so the questions keep coming ? all the questions we were not permitted to ask at the AGMM

Andrew

From: Saul Stein [mailto:saul at enetworks.co.za]
Sent: 19 June 2018 17:31
To: Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>; Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
Subject: RE: [Spam] Re: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Actually these questions and answers are rather interesting. We weren?t allowed to ask them at the AGMM, so I guess now is the time.

I am intrigued to see how much money is given to organisations that don?t seem to have accountability what they get.


From: Omo Oaiya [mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net]
Sent: 19 June 2018 04:11 PM
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>
Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: [Spam] Re: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Andrew,

I try to avoid you so I don?t get drawn into time-wasting discussions.   I guess I am reacting to your flippant disregard for AFRINIC origins and your attempt to disparage those that have worked to get us here.

On 19 Jun 2018, at 14:51, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:

Omo,

As a member that contributes fees to the organisation ? at a rate of almost $50k a year ? I have every single right in the world ? to understand how that money is being spent.  And I will continue to ask ? especially when an event is being held that is being paid for that is not on any event calendar.


I have not suggested you do not have the right to question.  I have queried their nature and more importantly the availability of the CEO to respond question by question.


While I realize that the organisation you work for ? got their space on the back of a grant and didn?t even pay the allocation fee or the first few years of having it ? and you are a small member ? so its tiny amounts of money ? others of us ? actually would like to know where our cash is being spent to guide other decisions.


 I am a small member who does not expect this level of micromanagement from a CEO.


Andrew


From: Omo Oaiya [mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net]
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:47
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

This line of questioning is unnecessary and unbecoming.   I am surprised the CEO has time to respond to this.

Omo

On 19 Jun 2018, at 14:40, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:

Sorry,

Last question ? why is this event not on the AFRINIC Event calendar (or the ISOC event calendar)

Andrew


From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:31
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting



> On 19 Jun 2018, at 17:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
> Alan,
>
> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship

The sponsorship is a lump sum. There is no additional or separate amount for a cocktail.

> ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:
>
> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
> Sponsorship $3000
> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
> 5 total people
>
> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?

That sounds plausible, though it's more likely to be 4 people, not 5.

Alan Barrett


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
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From noah at neo.co.tz  Tue Jun 19 19:27:36 2018
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 22:27:36 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <E8CDBBB0-4B23-4ABA-9216-DC3271098268@afrinic.net>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <E8CDBBB0-4B23-4ABA-9216-DC3271098268@afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <CAEqgTWZuQ3YsxOu30Bqmnnq_g6LrZ2eS9THFQzE+-tFOJ8ELQA@mail.gmail.com>

Folks,

We must really learn to appreciate sometimes...

To all the pioneers who will attend this, may you all enjoy this event as
the fruits of your work are evident all over this continent.

For those in the community who haven't seen the pictures [1], see the link
below

Cheers,
Noah

[1] http://internethistory.africa/en/media/
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From wametozion at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 20:18:52 2018
From: wametozion at gmail.com (William Ametozion)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 20:18:52 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Community,

I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC
Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.

Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that
we have made progress .

No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be
changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve
commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves
encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.

I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa join
in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.

Thank you.

On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
wrote:

> Alan,
>
>
>
> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate
> as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of
> attendance:
>
>
>
> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) -
> $2049.50
>
> Sponsorship $3000
>
> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per
> person (conservatively)
>
> 5 total people
>
>
>
> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
>
>
>
> I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> *From:* Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
> *Sent:* 19 June 2018 16:15
> *To:* community-discuss at afrinic.net
> *Cc:* AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was
> sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the
> members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events
> calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.
>
> AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was
> invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and
> will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and
> the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.
>
> Regards,
>
> Alan Barrett
> CEO, AFRINIC
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Tue Jun 19 20:35:27 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 20:35:27 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB25705EDE23D3EF3D80DEC6DFEE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Yip ? I said it ? and I stand by everything I said in there.

And William ? thanks for posting that ? We wondered who was leaking out of the bad attitude group in direct contravention of the rules

Andrew


From: William Ametozion [mailto:wametozion at gmail.com]
Sent: 19 June 2018 23:19
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>; community-discuss at afrinic.net; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Dear Community,

I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.

Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that we have made progress .

No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.

I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.

Thank you.

On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Alan,

Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:

Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
Sponsorship $3000
Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
5 total people

Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?

I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here

Andrew

From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net<mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>]
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:15
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting



> On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
> So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.

AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.

Regards,

Alan Barrett
CEO, AFRINIC


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Tue Jun 19 21:07:04 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 21:07:04 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>

Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking that? Or attempt to deny it?

Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.

I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own purposes.

? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate members of this list to members of that group ? but *shrug* who cares ? its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ? I stand by that one

Andrew

From: William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>, "community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Dear Community,

I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.

Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that we have made progress .

No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.

I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.

Thank you.

On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Alan,

Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:

Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
Sponsorship $3000
Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
5 total people

Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?

I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here

Andrew

From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net<mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>]
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:15
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting



> On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
> So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.

AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.

Regards,

Alan Barrett
CEO, AFRINIC


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

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From jnoulaye at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 22:50:59 2018
From: jnoulaye at gmail.com (Janvier NGNOULAYE)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 23:50:59 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
Message-ID: <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Andrew,
I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last couple
of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to tell you
to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to another
RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or
your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages
Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body.
I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have
never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the
financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these
multiple questions.
I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the
principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to
members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the
figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou
event?
I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of
asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of
respect to the ICANN body.
For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the Afrinic
members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am requesting  the
Board to put you under discipline because of these attitudes that tarnish
the image of Afrinic and its members.

Warm regards,
Janvier NGNOULAYE
Afrinic Member
Former Afrinic Board member
Yaounde - Cameroon


Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
a ?crit :

> Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking
> that? Or attempt to deny it?
>
>
>
> Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that
> group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it
> where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.
>
>
>
> I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group
> that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own
> purposes.
>
>
>
> ? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate
> members of this list to members of that group ? but **shrug** who cares ?
> its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ? I
> stand by that one
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> *From: *William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
> *To: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> *Cc: *Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>, "
> community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, AFRINIC
> Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> *Subject: *Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
>
>
> Dear Community,
>
>
>
> I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC
> Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.
>
>
>
> Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that
> we have made progress .
>
>
>
> No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be
> changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve
> commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves
> encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.
>
>
>
> I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa
> join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> wrote:
>
> Alan,
>
>
>
> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate
> as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of
> attendance:
>
>
>
> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) -
> $2049.50
>
> Sponsorship $3000
>
> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per
> person (conservatively)
>
> 5 total people
>
>
>
> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
>
>
>
> I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> *From:* Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
> *Sent:* 19 June 2018 16:15
> *To:* community-discuss at afrinic.net
> *Cc:* AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was
> sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the
> members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events
> calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.
>
> AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was
> invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and
> will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and
> the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.
>
> Regards,
>
> Alan Barrett
> CEO, AFRINIC
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
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From ali at hussein.me.ke  Wed Jun 20 05:02:37 2018
From: ali at hussein.me.ke (Ali Hussein)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 08:02:37 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all

Been following these conversations for the last few days with interest and
dismay. We have become fractioned that we query and deem unnecessary such
important events. We probably need to go back to the core reason Afrinic
was created. let me recount our Vision and Mission:-

V
?ISION
?
"Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's sustainable
development"


?MISSION
?
"To serve the African Community by providing professional and efficient
management of Internet number technology usage and development, and
promoting Internet self-governance."

*?CORE VALUES?*

   - Community driven
   - Operational excellence
   - Passion
   - Innovation & Creativity



   - *CRITICAL SUCCESS FACTORS*
   - ?
   People management (right people, competent, mindset, engaged, clear
   objectives, committed, etc)
   - Technical Infrastructure's reliability and resilience
   - Plans & Processes
   - Funding:
      - Financial Sustainability
      - Infrastructure and space
      - Budget discipline
   - Community Trust/Confidence
   - Continuous community engagement and support
   - Effective Operational Processes and Agile Organisational structure


*?*Instead of being so pedantic and questioning every little thing the
organization is doing I say let's go back to these core issues above. And
let's ask ourselves:-

Despite all the challenges we are currently facing what have we achieved?
And when answering this let's not just speak about the paying members.
Afrinic is much more than paying members! Afrinic is about the very
Internet Ecosystem in the co?ntinent. Let us be circumspect lest we kill
the baby with the bath water.

?Regards?

*Ali Hussein*

*Principal*

*AHK & Associates*



Tel: +254 713 601113

Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
<http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>


13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,

Chiromo Road, Westlands,

Nairobi, Kenya.

Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely
mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the
organizations that I work with.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 1:50 AM, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Andrew,
> I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last couple
> of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to tell you
> to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to another
> RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
> Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or
> your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages
> Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body.
> I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have
> never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the
> financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these
> multiple questions.
> I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the
> principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to
> members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the
> figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou
> event?
> I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of
> asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of
> respect to the ICANN body.
> For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the
> Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am
> requesting  the Board to put you under discipline because of these
> attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.
>
> Warm regards,
> Janvier NGNOULAYE
> Afrinic Member
> Former Afrinic Board member
> Yaounde - Cameroon
>
>
> Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.c
> om> a ?crit :
>
>> Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking
>> that? Or attempt to deny it?
>>
>>
>>
>> Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that
>> group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it
>> where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group
>> that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own
>> purposes.
>>
>>
>>
>> ? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate
>> members of this list to members of that group ? but **shrug** who cares
>> ? its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ?
>> I stand by that one
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
>> *To: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
>> *Cc: *Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>, "
>> community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, AFRINIC
>> Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Community,
>>
>>
>>
>> I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC
>> Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told
>> that we have made progress .
>>
>>
>>
>> No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be
>> changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve
>> commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves
>> encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.
>>
>>
>>
>> I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa
>> join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Alan,
>>
>>
>>
>> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we
>> calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate
>> cost of attendance:
>>
>>
>>
>> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) -
>> $2049.50
>>
>> Sponsorship $3000
>>
>> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per
>> person (conservatively)
>>
>> 5 total people
>>
>>
>>
>> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
>>
>>
>>
>> I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
>> *Sent:* 19 June 2018 16:15
>> *To:* community-discuss at afrinic.net
>> *Cc:* AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.c
>> om> wrote:
>> >
>> > So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what
>> was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the
>> members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events
>> calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.
>>
>> AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was
>> invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and
>> will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and
>> the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Alan Barrett
>> CEO, AFRINIC
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Wed Jun 20 06:25:16 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 06:25:16 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Ok Ali,

Let me attempt this ? and you and I, it?s rare that we disagree with each other, and you know that I have immense respect for you, but in this case, disagree with you I must.

Firstly ? the micro-management of AFRINIC becomes necessary when AFRINIC refuses point blank to follow its own rules of engagement as defined by the bylaws.  Secondly ? to turn a blind eye to the ?small? issues is to let the organisation end up back where it was in 2014, teetering on the brink of total financial collapse, with no reserve, making sustained losses that could have ended the company.
Thirdly - Let us examine the core mission of AFRINIC and then let us score that:


  1.  "Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's sustainable development"

That simply isn?t happening ? no R&D that is visible to the community or the members to speak of, a IRDB that myself, and others on this list, have consistently says has serious problems and needs rectification ? with no indication of how this is going to be ? potentially putting the continent at risk if RIPE proceeds with certain actions inside its own DB working group ? A situation where members that do ALL their business on this continent asking why, after a year of attempting to get legitimate space they have none, yet in February 2018 an allocation is made that, within 2 months is being offered sale ? and AFRINIC?s only response to the multitude of queries is ?we?re investigating?? with no time frames given.  The denial of an application by one particular major content player that wanted to come onto this continent with a request that they provide proof of over 2 million domains they handle? Oh, and a statement by yet another major content player that AFRINIC and the situation it is in is ?unsettling for business on the continent? ? no ? AFRINIC is not driving sustained development ? and if you believe otherwise ? please ? tell me how they are



  1.  Community driven as a core value

This community asked for and was denied a vote of no confidence by the board, and using technicalities to do so.  This community has asked AFRINIC to explain the benefit members get out of the insane amount of travel (which btw, averages more than 6 trips per employee per year in 2017), and never had a proper answer.  This community has asked AFRINIC to explain how it plans to fix the *extremely* serious legal predicament it finds itself in, with the fact that it cannot get quorum to hold another AGMM and it cannot, by its own bylaws, elect directors to get that quorum ? and have been ignored.  So please ? tell me how we meet this objective



  1.  Operational excellence?  Really ? If you really need me to elaborate on this ? let me know ? I?ll happily paste the pages and pages of what members who are attempting to get space out of AFRINIC for very legitimate business needs are saying on lists all over the continent.



  1.  Passion?  Where is this passion ? What I see is that the members who are passionate about this organization and the good of the continent and ensuring that the organization is financially sustainable and well run by good corporate governance are told to shut up ? go away ? and not make waves ? and not to sweat the small things.  We are closer to asking for apathy than we are for passion



  1.  Innovation & Creativity ? please Ali ? tell me where this is ? what innovation has come from AFRINIC?  Where is this innovation ? because if it?s there ? I do not see it ? and if I?m wrong ? then I need to be shown the error I am making.

So ? by my count so far ? in my view ? we are failing ENTIRELY on the vision ? and 4 core values you listed.  Now let?s move on to the next points:


  1.  People management ? Please ? just go back and look at the last few months ? I need not say anything more on this point
  2.  Plans & Processes? When I asked on this list if AFRINIC would adhere to the Mauritian code of corporate governance ? I was told that it was ?optional? for companies like AFRINIC (which is technically true).  When I have asked AFRINIC if they are willing to publish the minutes of the sub-board committees ? they have openly refused.  The strategic plan as it stands ? a strategic plan is a living document ? look at when that document that was sent was last revised or updated.  Let?s do a tangible analysis not just on the plans ? but on the delivery against those plans ? and see where we are ? I don?t think you?d like the results of such an analysis.
  3.  Budget Discipline and associated items ? This is an interesting one ? except ? there is a problem ? if your revenue is increasing at 10.7% and you are budgeting for opex increases in categories in excess of 20% and are budgeting against projected growth figures ? you have an issue.  When you stand and tell the members ? we wish to raise the fees by an effective 5% - while already making surplus ? and while you are not explaining the benefit to those putting in money of how you are spending your money ? no budget in the world covers for this.  A budget must be adhered to ? but the members of a non-profit organization should also have some say in how that money is spent ? particularly when they start to question if the money is being spent serving the company?s primary objective.  Myself and others ? we are certainly questioning if that is the case.
  4.  Community confidence / trust ? well ? again ? I don?t even need to comment on this ? the ballot box in Dakar spoke for itself
  5.  Continuous community engagement and support?  This needs to happen ? I 100% agree with you ? however, it needs to be defined what it means ? it does not mean giving away money to organisations that have NO accountability and that refuse to be audited for 10 years as an example.  It does not mean making the community wait months for answers to questions which directly affect this organization.  It does mean sticking to the clauses as defined in article 3 of the bylaws ? something AFRINIC has singularly failed to do ? in particular in terms of clause 3.4.vii of the bylaws.  Part of continuous community engagement is defined so well in 3.4.vii ? that states that the board should disseminate among its members information on _ALL_ matters affecting the Company and its members.  And as many of my comments above this will show ? that ? has not happened and is not happening.
  6.  Effective operational processes and an agile organizational structure ? Well, on this, I can only comment on what I see from outside ? and I would argue that if this existed ? the comments appearing on other lists around this continent about the constant struggle to get anything out of AFRINIC would not be there.  I would argue that if this existed ? the incidents that lead to a full blown investigation followed by a refusal to publish the actual report ? would not have come to fruition.

In my book ? and for many many others that I speak to on a daily basis ? AfriNIC fails on every single one of the above points.

So yes ? I openly called AFRINIC an abject failure as it stands today ? and I did so publicly ? because ? by any objective evaluation of the above points ? we have failed in a core mission ? we have failed in our core values ? and we have failed on the critical success factors.  We have plowed millions into training across the continent ? and while I realize that objectively measuring the success of training is pretty difficult ? considering how much of that training has been focused on IPv6 deployment ? and considering the V6 deployment rates across the continent ? we have failed there as well.  (Please note ? I do not blame the trainers here, I would say it?s probably more the fault of those who do not apply that training, but the reality remains ? if you are pouring money into something with no tangible results, you are failing ? badly)

So Ali ? when you say do not focus on the small issues ? From 2005 when I actively started engaging with AFRINIC ? I have seen a consistent refusal to focus on the macro issues ? a consistent refusal to focus on the micro issues ? and a consistent attempt to hide behind technicalities and every other thing in the book to avoid accountability and responsibility.  So right now, EVERY issue is in focus ? and I believe that the only way any organization can truly thrive, is to be willing to answer the questions and to take a long hard look at themselves, either through the questions their members ask or through external review ? and be willing to face the hard realities when they are going so terribly wrong.

Again ? I stand by my statement ? that by any objective measure right now ? AfriNIC has failed ? and while it has the ability to turn itself around ? the path it is on right now ? celebrating the failures rather than staying home and fixing the significant problems ? is no way to do that.  The path it is on right now ? leads to annihilation.

Andrew



From: Ali Hussein [mailto:ali at hussein.me.ke]
Sent: 20 June 2018 08:03
To: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
Cc: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>; General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Hi all

Been following these conversations for the last few days with interest and dismay. We have become fractioned that we query and deem unnecessary such important events. We probably need to go back to the core reason Afrinic was created. let me recount our Vision and Mission:-

V
?ISION
?
"Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's sustainable development"


?MISSION
?
"To serve the African Community by providing professional and efficient management of Internet number technology usage and development, and promoting Internet self-governance."

?CORE VALUES?

  *   Community driven
  *   Operational excellence
  *   Passion
  *   Innovation & Creativity


  *   CRITICAL SUCCESS FACTORS

  *   ?
People management (right people, competent, mindset, engaged, clear objectives, committed, etc)

  *   Technical Infrastructure's reliability and resilience
  *   Plans & Processes
  *   Funding:

     *   Financial Sustainability
     *   Infrastructure and space
     *   Budget discipline

  *   Community Trust/Confidence
  *   Continuous community engagement and support
  *   Effective Operational Processes and Agile Organisational structure


?Instead of being so pedantic and questioning every little thing the organization is doing I say let's go back to these core issues above. And let's ask ourselves:-

Despite all the challenges we are currently facing what have we achieved? And when answering this let's not just speak about the paying members. Afrinic is much more than paying members! Afrinic is about the very Internet Ecosystem in the co?ntinent. Let us be circumspect lest we kill the baby with the bath water.

?Regards?


Ali Hussein

Principal

AHK & Associates



Tel: +254 713 601113

Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim<http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>



13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,

Chiromo Road, Westlands,

Nairobi, Kenya.

Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 1:50 AM, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com<mailto:jnoulaye at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Andrew,
I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last couple of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to tell you to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to another RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body.
I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the  financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these multiple questions.
I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou event?
I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of respect to the ICANN body.
For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am requesting  the Board to put you under discipline because of these attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.

Warm regards,
Janvier NGNOULAYE
Afrinic Member
Former Afrinic Board member
Yaounde - Cameroon


Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> a ?crit :
Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking that? Or attempt to deny it?

Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.

I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own purposes.

? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate members of this list to members of that group ? but *shrug* who cares ? its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ? I stand by that one

Andrew

From: William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com<mailto:wametozion at gmail.com>>
Date: Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>
Cc: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net<mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>>, "community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>" <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>, AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Dear Community,

I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.

Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that we have made progress .

No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.

I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.

Thank you.

On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Alan,

Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:

Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
Sponsorship $3000
Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
5 total people

Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?

I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here

Andrew

From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net<mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>]
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:15
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting



> On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
> So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.

AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.

Regards,

Alan Barrett
CEO, AFRINIC


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

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Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
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From kmw.elitcha at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 13:33:58 2018
From: kmw.elitcha at gmail.com (Komi Elitcha)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 13:33:58 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN0q0kE9S9ZJ4t2JHxqCV2wZeLx+VPsi7MdMkabXR18DtQqTxg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello AFRINIC BoD,

Based on what has been going on for a while over the years, with liquid
telecom an afrinic ressources member engaging in many actions which affect
afrinic reputation and also expose the organization to legal risks, I want
to encourage The board to propose a code of conduct for afrinic members.

Failure to comply to this code of conduct by liquid telecom or any other
members, board shall invoke section 8.2(iii) of the bylaws and terminate
their membership

8.2 The membership of a Resource Member shall terminate upon:
(iii) the Board, acting reasonably and in good faith, determining that the
Resource Member has refused or failed to comply with the provisions of this
Constitution or any applicable rule made by the Board;


Le mar. 19 juin 2018 22:52, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com> a ?crit :

> Dear Andrew,
> I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last couple
> of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to tell you
> to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to another
> RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
> Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or
> your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages
> Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body.
> I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have
> never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the
> financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these
> multiple questions.
> I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the
> principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to
> members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the
> figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou
> event?
> I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of
> asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of
> respect to the ICANN body.
> For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the
> Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am
> requesting  the Board to put you under discipline because of these
> attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.
>
> Warm regards,
> Janvier NGNOULAYE
> Afrinic Member
> Former Afrinic Board member
> Yaounde - Cameroon
>
>
> Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <
> Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> a ?crit :
>
>> Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking
>> that? Or attempt to deny it?
>>
>>
>>
>> Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that
>> group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it
>> where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group
>> that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own
>> purposes.
>>
>>
>>
>> ? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate
>> members of this list to members of that group ? but **shrug** who cares
>> ? its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ?
>> I stand by that one
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
>> *To: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
>> *Cc: *Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>, "
>> community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, AFRINIC
>> Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Community,
>>
>>
>>
>> I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC
>> Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told
>> that we have made progress .
>>
>>
>>
>> No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be
>> changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve
>> commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves
>> encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.
>>
>>
>>
>> I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa
>> join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Alan,
>>
>>
>>
>> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we
>> calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate
>> cost of attendance:
>>
>>
>>
>> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) -
>> $2049.50
>>
>> Sponsorship $3000
>>
>> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per
>> person (conservatively)
>>
>> 5 total people
>>
>>
>>
>> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
>>
>>
>>
>> I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
>> *Sent:* 19 June 2018 16:15
>> *To:* community-discuss at afrinic.net
>> *Cc:* AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <
>> Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what
>> was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the
>> members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events
>> calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.
>>
>> AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was
>> invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and
>> will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and
>> the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Alan Barrett
>> CEO, AFRINIC
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Wed Jun 20 14:41:54 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 14:41:54 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAN0q0kE9S9ZJ4t2JHxqCV2wZeLx+VPsi7MdMkabXR18DtQqTxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
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 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
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 <CAN0q0kE9S9ZJ4t2JHxqCV2wZeLx+VPsi7MdMkabXR18DtQqTxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB25706098FE64EBA967E0EE88EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

I?m? a little speechless?

So ? this is what it comes to ? someone questions the RIR ? questions which for years have gone unanswered ? and now ? because the question ? because the demand the rules are followed ? because the hold to account against the bylaws this community agreed to ? because they wish to know how their money is spent ? you propose their membership is terminated?

Let me say this ? if holding up a mirror ? is causing such angst ? then ? change what is being reflected in the mirror.  You see ? individuals want to blame me for stirring the pot ? get ? time and again ? none of what I have written or questioned has actually ever been disputed with fact.  I see hyperbole, I see vague allusions, I see suppositions, but ? when it comes to actually pulling out the rules and reading them and contradicting things by those rules ? by the law ? there is silence.

If you disagree with what I have to say ? if you disagree with my analysis ? then ? dispute it ? with facts ? bring it on ? lets engage ? but the thing is ? no one wants to do that ? no one wants to actually take their head out the sand and engage on facts based on what is written in our bylaws and written in the companies act ? what they want is blind faith and acceptance that serves their own needs.

But Komi ? all I would say is ? you need to think this through very carefully ? as to the potential consequences of such an action ? before you propose it.  Think about it ? really think about it.

Andrew

From: Komi Elitcha [mailto:kmw.elitcha at gmail.com]
Sent: 20 June 2018 16:34
To: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>; General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; board at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Hello AFRINIC BoD,

Based on what has been going on for a while over the years, with liquid telecom an afrinic ressources member engaging in many actions which affect afrinic reputation and also expose the organization to legal risks, I want to encourage The board to propose a code of conduct for afrinic members.

Failure to comply to this code of conduct by liquid telecom or any other  members, board shall invoke section 8.2(iii) of the bylaws and terminate their membership

8.2 The membership of a Resource Member shall terminate upon:
(iii) the Board, acting reasonably and in good faith, determining that the Resource Member has refused or failed to comply with the provisions of this Constitution or any applicable rule made by the Board;


Le mar. 19 juin 2018 22:52, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com<mailto:jnoulaye at gmail.com>> a ?crit :
Dear Andrew,
I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last couple of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to tell you to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to another RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body.
I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the  financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these multiple questions.
I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou event?
I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of respect to the ICANN body.
For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am requesting  the Board to put you under discipline because of these attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.

Warm regards,
Janvier NGNOULAYE
Afrinic Member
Former Afrinic Board member
Yaounde - Cameroon


Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> a ?crit :
Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking that? Or attempt to deny it?

Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.

I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own purposes.

? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate members of this list to members of that group ? but *shrug* who cares ? its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ? I stand by that one

Andrew

From: William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com<mailto:wametozion at gmail.com>>
Date: Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>
Cc: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net<mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>>, "community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>" <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>, AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Dear Community,

I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.

Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that we have made progress .

No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.

I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.

Thank you.

On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Alan,

Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:

Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
Sponsorship $3000
Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
5 total people

Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?

I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here

Andrew

From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net<mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>]
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:15
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting



> On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
> So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.

AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.

Regards,

Alan Barrett
CEO, AFRINIC


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
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From ali at hussein.me.ke  Wed Jun 20 15:08:29 2018
From: ali at hussein.me.ke (Ali Hussein)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 18:08:29 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
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 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <3C9E1AF8-8D9F-4C97-9145-81D665505CF8@hussein.me.ke>

Andrew

As I recall your rabid objection to everything Afrinic started immediately you lost the elections as Board Member. Correct me if I?m wrong. If things are so dire as to call for the demise of the organization then what were you doing during the time you were a board member?

You missed the point as to why I wanted to remind EVERYONE ?the reason for being? of Afrinic. Your ?Scorched Earth Policy? against the organization is for no one?s benefit. Not even for you or your organization that is building a continent wide Network.

Let us be mature on how we engage. We agree that things are not right at Afrinic. What you and I disagree on is the process of how to correct it. We must do it with maturity, decorum and respect of each other. All of which is sorely lacking at the moment.

Ali Hussein
Principal
AHK & Associates
+254 0713 601113 

Twitter: @AliHKassim
Skype: abu-jomo
LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit."  ~ Aristotle


Sent from my iPad

> On 20 Jun 2018, at 9:25 AM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> 
> Ok Ali,
>  
> Let me attempt this ? and you and I, it?s rare that we disagree with each other, and you know that I have immense respect for you, but in this case, disagree with you I must.
>  
> Firstly ? the micro-management of AFRINIC becomes necessary when AFRINIC refuses point blank to follow its own rules of engagement as defined by the bylaws.  Secondly ? to turn a blind eye to the ?small? issues is to let the organisation end up back where it was in 2014, teetering on the brink of total financial collapse, with no reserve, making sustained losses that could have ended the company.
> Thirdly - Let us examine the core mission of AFRINIC and then let us score that:
>  
> "Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's sustainable development"
> That simply isn?t happening ? no R&D that is visible to the community or the members to speak of, a IRDB that myself, and others on this list, have consistently says has serious problems and needs rectification ? with no indication of how this is going to be ? potentially putting the continent at risk if RIPE proceeds with certain actions inside its own DB working group ? A situation where members that do ALL their business on this continent asking why, after a year of attempting to get legitimate space they have none, yet in February 2018 an allocation is made that, within 2 months is being offered sale ? and AFRINIC?s only response to the multitude of queries is ?we?re investigating?? with no time frames given.  The denial of an application by one particular major content player that wanted to come onto this continent with a request that they provide proof of over 2 million domains they handle? Oh, and a statement by yet another major content player that AFRINIC and the situation it is in is ?unsettling for business on the continent? ? no ? AFRINIC is not driving sustained development ? and if you believe otherwise ? please ? tell me how they are
>  
> Community driven as a core value
> This community asked for and was denied a vote of no confidence by the board, and using technicalities to do so.  This community has asked AFRINIC to explain the benefit members get out of the insane amount of travel (which btw, averages more than 6 trips per employee per year in 2017), and never had a proper answer.  This community has asked AFRINIC to explain how it plans to fix the *extremely* serious legal predicament it finds itself in, with the fact that it cannot get quorum to hold another AGMM and it cannot, by its own bylaws, elect directors to get that quorum ? and have been ignored.  So please ? tell me how we meet this objective
>  
> Operational excellence?  Really ? If you really need me to elaborate on this ? let me know ? I?ll happily paste the pages and pages of what members who are attempting to get space out of AFRINIC for very legitimate business needs are saying on lists all over the continent.
>  
> Passion?  Where is this passion ? What I see is that the members who are passionate about this organization and the good of the continent and ensuring that the organization is financially sustainable and well run by good corporate governance are told to shut up ? go away ? and not make waves ? and not to sweat the small things.  We are closer to asking for apathy than we are for passion
>  
> Innovation & Creativity ? please Ali ? tell me where this is ? what innovation has come from AFRINIC?  Where is this innovation ? because if it?s there ? I do not see it ? and if I?m wrong ? then I need to be shown the error I am making.
>  
> So ? by my count so far ? in my view ? we are failing ENTIRELY on the vision ? and 4 core values you listed.  Now let?s move on to the next points:
>  
> People management ? Please ? just go back and look at the last few months ? I need not say anything more on this point
> Plans & Processes? When I asked on this list if AFRINIC would adhere to the Mauritian code of corporate governance ? I was told that it was ?optional? for companies like AFRINIC (which is technically true).  When I have asked AFRINIC if they are willing to publish the minutes of the sub-board committees ? they have openly refused.  The strategic plan as it stands ? a strategic plan is a living document ? look at when that document that was sent was last revised or updated.  Let?s do a tangible analysis not just on the plans ? but on the delivery against those plans ? and see where we are ? I don?t think you?d like the results of such an analysis.
> Budget Discipline and associated items ? This is an interesting one ? except ? there is a problem ? if your revenue is increasing at 10.7% and you are budgeting for opex increases in categories in excess of 20% and are budgeting against projected growth figures ? you have an issue.  When you stand and tell the members ? we wish to raise the fees by an effective 5% - while already making surplus ? and while you are not explaining the benefit to those putting in money of how you are spending your money ? no budget in the world covers for this.  A budget must be adhered to ? but the members of a non-profit organization should also have some say in how that money is spent ? particularly when they start to question if the money is being spent serving the company?s primary objective.  Myself and others ? we are certainly questioning if that is the case.
> Community confidence / trust ? well ? again ? I don?t even need to comment on this ? the ballot box in Dakar spoke for itself
> Continuous community engagement and support?  This needs to happen ? I 100% agree with you ? however, it needs to be defined what it means ? it does not mean giving away money to organisations that have NO accountability and that refuse to be audited for 10 years as an example.  It does not mean making the community wait months for answers to questions which directly affect this organization.  It does mean sticking to the clauses as defined in article 3 of the bylaws ? something AFRINIC has singularly failed to do ? in particular in terms of clause 3.4.vii of the bylaws.  Part of continuous community engagement is defined so well in 3.4.vii ? that states that the board should disseminate among its members information on _ALL_ matters affecting the Company and its members.  And as many of my comments above this will show ? that ? has not happened and is not happening.
> Effective operational processes and an agile organizational structure ? Well, on this, I can only comment on what I see from outside ? and I would argue that if this existed ? the comments appearing on other lists around this continent about the constant struggle to get anything out of AFRINIC would not be there.  I would argue that if this existed ? the incidents that lead to a full blown investigation followed by a refusal to publish the actual report ? would not have come to fruition. 
>  
> In my book ? and for many many others that I speak to on a daily basis ? AfriNIC fails on every single one of the above points.
>  
> So yes ? I openly called AFRINIC an abject failure as it stands today ? and I did so publicly ? because ? by any objective evaluation of the above points ? we have failed in a core mission ? we have failed in our core values ? and we have failed on the critical success factors.  We have plowed millions into training across the continent ? and while I realize that objectively measuring the success of training is pretty difficult ? considering how much of that training has been focused on IPv6 deployment ? and considering the V6 deployment rates across the continent ? we have failed there as well.  (Please note ? I do not blame the trainers here, I would say it?s probably more the fault of those who do not apply that training, but the reality remains ? if you are pouring money into something with no tangible results, you are failing ? badly)
>  
> So Ali ? when you say do not focus on the small issues ? From 2005 when I actively started engaging with AFRINIC ? I have seen a consistent refusal to focus on the macro issues ? a consistent refusal to focus on the micro issues ? and a consistent attempt to hide behind technicalities and every other thing in the book to avoid accountability and responsibility.  So right now, EVERY issue is in focus ? and I believe that the only way any organization can truly thrive, is to be willing to answer the questions and to take a long hard look at themselves, either through the questions their members ask or through external review ? and be willing to face the hard realities when they are going so terribly wrong.
>  
> Again ? I stand by my statement ? that by any objective measure right now ? AfriNIC has failed ? and while it has the ability to turn itself around ? the path it is on right now ? celebrating the failures rather than staying home and fixing the significant problems ? is no way to do that.  The path it is on right now ? leads to annihilation.
>  
> Andrew
>  
>  
>  
> From: Ali Hussein [mailto:ali at hussein.me.ke] 
> Sent: 20 June 2018 08:03
> To: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
> Cc: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>; General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>  
> Hi all
>  
> Been following these conversations for the last few days with interest and dismay. We have become fractioned that we query and deem unnecessary such important events. We probably need to go back to the core reason Afrinic was created. let me recount our Vision and Mission:-
>  
> V
> ?ISION
> ?
> "Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's sustainable development"
>  
>  
> ?MISSION
> ?
> "To serve the African Community by providing professional and efficient management of Internet number technology usage and development, and promoting Internet self-governance."
>  
> ?CORE VALUES?
> Community driven
> Operational excellence
> Passion
> Innovation & Creativity
>  
> CRITICAL SUCCESS FACTORS
> ?
> People management (right people, competent, mindset, engaged, clear objectives, committed, etc)
> Technical Infrastructure's reliability and resilience
> Plans & Processes
> Funding: 
> Financial Sustainability
> Infrastructure and space
> Budget discipline
> Community Trust/Confidence
> Continuous community engagement and support
> Effective Operational Processes and Agile Organisational structure
>  
> ?Instead of being so pedantic and questioning every little thing the organization is doing I say let's go back to these core issues above. And let's ask ourselves:-
>  
> Despite all the challenges we are currently facing what have we achieved? And when answering this let's not just speak about the paying members. Afrinic is much more than paying members! Afrinic is about the very Internet Ecosystem in the co?ntinent. Let us be circumspect lest we kill the baby with the bath water.
>  
> ?Regards?
>  
> Ali Hussein
> Principal
> AHK & Associates
>  
> Tel: +254 713 601113
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
> Skype: abu-jomo
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>  
> 13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,
> Chiromo Road, Westlands,
> Nairobi, Kenya.
> 
> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with.
>  
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 1:50 AM, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Andrew,
> I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last couple of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to tell you to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to another RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
> Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body. 
> I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the  financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these multiple questions.
> I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou event? 
> I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of respect to the ICANN body.
> For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am requesting  the Board to put you under discipline because of these attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.
>  
> Warm regards,
> Janvier NGNOULAYE
> Afrinic Member
> Former Afrinic Board member 
> Yaounde - Cameroon
>  
>  
> Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> a ?crit :
> Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking that? Or attempt to deny it?
>  
> Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.
>  
> I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own purposes.
>  
> ? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate members of this list to members of that group ? but *shrug* who cares ? its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ? I stand by that one
>  
> Andrew
>  
> From: William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com>
> Date: Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
> To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> Cc: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>, "community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>  
> Dear Community,
>  
> I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you. 
>  
> Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that we have made progress .
>  
> No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.
>  
> I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.
>  
> Thank you.
>  
> On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> Alan,
>  
> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:
>  
> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
> Sponsorship $3000
> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
> 5 total people
>  
> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
>  
> I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here
>  
> Andrew
>  
> From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net] 
> Sent: 19 June 2018 16:15
> To: community-discuss at afrinic.net
> Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>  
>  
> 
> > On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> > 
> > So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.
> 
> AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Alan Barrett
> CEO, AFRINIC
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> 
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> 
>  
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From mark.tinka at seacom.mu  Wed Jun 20 15:14:13 2018
From: mark.tinka at seacom.mu (Mark Tinka)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 17:14:13 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] SAFNOG-4 + EANOG,
	tzNOG & TISPA Meeting Announcement
Message-ID: <ef8bd4cd-c17c-69b3-4dc8-533c5855a05d@seacom.mu>

Hello all.

It gives me great pleasure to announce that SAFNOG-4, in collaboration
with EANOG (East Africa Network Operators Group) and tzNOG (Tanzania
Network Operators Group), and hosted by TISPA (Tanzania Internet Service
Providers Association) will be held between the 24th - 29th September,
2018, in the warm and sunny city of Dar Es Salaam, Tanzania.

What is exciting about this year's SAFNOG meeting is that it will be
partnering with EANOG and tzNOG, to include both plenary and workshop
sessions during the week, as part of the agenda.

The main plenary meeting will be held at the Hyatt Regency Dar Es Salaam
hotel between 24th - 26th September, while the the workshop will be held
at the Bank of Tanzania building between 26th - 29th September, 2018.

Details about the event registration and agenda will be made available
at these locations:

??? - www.safnog.org
??? - www.tznog.or.tz
??? - www.eanog.org

Please mark your calendars.

SAFNOG, EANOG, tzNOG and TISPA look forward to seeing you in Dar Es Salaam.

Cheers,

Mark Tinka
On Behalf of the SAFNOG/EANOG/tzNOG Organizing Committee
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From dndannang at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 15:18:24 2018
From: dndannang at gmail.com (DANIEL NANGHAKA)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 18:18:24 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC Accountability and Resource
	Management
Message-ID: <CAD4W+iPAk+sVn8x88nP6qZt_nQCZar1z6nELGMPnyHD+ahkDSw@mail.gmail.com>

 Dear All,

I have been following the thread critically "Cotonou Meeting" In my
personal capacity and from my own understanding, AFRINIC is run by the
community. AFRINIC Members pay a membership. The history of AFRINIC Is just
and requires an accountability.

Let's all put off our ego and visit the history of AFRINIC. During the
AFRINIC meeting in Lagos, I walked to the Microphone and asked about the
historical mandate of AFRINIC and I was shut down by the former chair with
a response that let's not go back to history.

Now the same issue of the history of AFRINIC arises, should we blatantly
elude the reason as to why AFRINIC is created. We all know the processes
and also the justification of accountability.

The Community is liable to receive accountability since the funds come from
paying membership amongst others.

I think the best response, in this case, is, "the Accountability of the
given FY can be found in this report dated here", why can't the minuted
report of accountability be reported and discussed?

The member request comes from a paying member of AFRINIC and has justified
a request based on the fact that the entity he represents "Liquid Telecom"
pays its membership. Despite the fact that we all have personal egos and
hatred for each other both in the struggle to make AFRINIC sustainable and
an awesome organisation, lets not just brush issues brought forth.

I believe the management of AFRINIC is great unless the community comes up
and requests for a review of the Management of AFRINIC.

I believe and trust that Allan is doing a great job as the CEO and directly
reports to the board and also listens to the community, in this manner the
AFRINIC Board also has its challenges which need to be streamlined. is
there a process outlined in the Board being streamlined to follow the laws?
If yes, let the community be updated.

Another issue is staff management and accountability, where did the issue
of Sexual harassment end, was the community satisfied with the update given
by the board? If yes, where is the final report?

I believe we should come up with strategies to clear the various mess in
AFRINIC and come up with clear procedures and processes. If we start to put
our egos first then the organisation second, we stub the organisation.
AFRINIC needs rapid amendment and timelines, if we do not work within
timelines, we catch up with the law since AFRINIC is a legal entity.

Who is liable? The answer lies in the community. Let's not destruct the
mandate of AFRINIC but build a community which enables the development or
Resource Management in the region. We are accountable to ourselves and the
Community needs to be listed too.

Thank you
Daniel K. Nanghaka




-- 

Regards
Nanghaka Daniel K.
Executive Director - ILICIT Africa / Chair - FOSSFA / Community Lead - ISOC
Uganda Chapter / Geo4Africa Lead / Organising Team - FOSS4G2018
Mobile +256 772 898298 (Uganda)
Skype: daniel.nanghaka

----------------------------------------- *"Working for Africa" *
-----------------------------------------


?
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From ali at hussein.me.ke  Wed Jun 20 15:38:45 2018
From: ali at hussein.me.ke (Ali Hussein)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 18:38:45 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAN0q0kE9S9ZJ4t2JHxqCV2wZeLx+VPsi7MdMkabXR18DtQqTxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN0q0kE9S9ZJ4t2JHxqCV2wZeLx+VPsi7MdMkabXR18DtQqTxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <559ADD49-D014-420B-A438-C2DAD3858B95@hussein.me.ke>

Komi 

All I can say is this:

I may not like what Andrew says but I will defend to the death his right to say it ~ Paraphrased from a quote by the French philosopher, Voltaire.

These sort of threats only work in a police state and have no place in a community based organization like Afrinic.

Regards 

Ali Hussein
Principal
AHK & Associates
+254 0713 601113 

Twitter: @AliHKassim
Skype: abu-jomo
LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit."  ~ Aristotle


Sent from my iPad

> On 20 Jun 2018, at 4:33 PM, Komi Elitcha <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello AFRINIC BoD,
> 
> Based on what has been going on for a while over the years, with liquid telecom an afrinic ressources member engaging in many actions which affect afrinic reputation and also expose the organization to legal risks, I want to encourage The board to propose a code of conduct for afrinic members.  
> 
> Failure to comply to this code of conduct by liquid telecom or any other  members, board shall invoke section 8.2(iii) of the bylaws and terminate their membership
> 
> 8.2 The membership of a Resource Member shall terminate upon:
> (iii) the Board, acting reasonably and in good faith, determining that the Resource Member has refused or failed to comply with the provisions of this Constitution or any applicable rule made by the Board;
> 
> 
> Le mar. 19 juin 2018 22:52, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com> a ?crit :
>> Dear Andrew,
>> I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last couple of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to tell you to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to another RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
>> Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body. 
>> I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the  financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these multiple questions.
>> I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou event? 
>> I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of respect to the ICANN body.
>> For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am requesting  the Board to put you under discipline because of these attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.
>> 
>> Warm regards,
>> Janvier NGNOULAYE
>> Afrinic Member
>> Former Afrinic Board member 
>> Yaounde - Cameroon
>> 
>> 
>>> Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> a ?crit :
>>> Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking that? Or attempt to deny it?
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own purposes.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> ? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate members of this list to members of that group ? but *shrug* who cares ? its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ? I stand by that one
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Andrew
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> From: William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com>
>>> Date: Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
>>> To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
>>> Cc: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>, "community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Dear Community,
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you. 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that we have made progress .
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves encouragement rather than this reckless  attempt to destroy AFRINIC.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Thank you.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Alan,
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
>>> 
>>> Sponsorship $3000
>>> 
>>> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
>>> 
>>> 5 total people
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Andrew
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net] 
>>> Sent: 19 June 2018 16:15
>>> To: community-discuss at afrinic.net
>>> Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> > On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>>> > 
>>> > So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.
>>> 
>>> AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Alan Barrett
>>> CEO, AFRINIC
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Wed Jun 20 16:00:51 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 16:00:51 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <3C9E1AF8-8D9F-4C97-9145-81D665505CF8@hussein.me.ke>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <3C9E1AF8-8D9F-4C97-9145-81D665505CF8@hussein.me.ke>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB257077867EB8FE29AEEA07CBEE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Ali,

Actually ? what I did and what I said on the board ? I am quite happy for the board to open the NDA and let us publish that.  I am tied ? I cannot reveal that which I said and did there ? and I would WELCOME a chance to do that.

I asked the board to publish the audit-co report ? they refused.  Let?s lift the seal on the executive sessions.  Let?s lift the redactions.  Let?s be open and transparent about what was said ? Let us open the board list to public scrutiny.

Bring it on.

What was I doing though Ali?  I was trying for years to fix the organisation ? as I might add were certain other former board members.  In some areas ? we succeeded ? in others ? we failed ? and I have no problem saying that.  What scares me is ? a lot of the gains ? now seem to be going backwards.  As stated ? look at the travel costs that are now at the highest level since 2014.

My scorched earth policy Ali, is based on an intimate knowledge of the internals, of things I have seen, and from trying ? and realizing that the problems related to the board and the management ? those ? I still think we MAY be able to fix ? if we start over ? if we stop clinging to the past ? if we remove institutions which allow people to hang around for a MINIMUM of *18* years.  However, such a fixes, require the board and the management to actually engage and be accountable and WANT to fix it.  It requires people to analyse the issues ? and be willing to talk about them.  It requires people to submit to the member base to which they are accountable.  I see none of that.  I see a situation where ? the transparency that we do have today ? was created by controversy that was stirred in Djibouti ? because without it ? no one cared.  It required a lightning rod ? but the transparency is now being eroded.

If you believe for half a second that I spent years and hours and hours doing this for fun, or for a joke, then ? think again my friend ? I fight for what I believe in, and I believe in this continent, I believe in the need for the internet to grow and florish, I believe that light on a fiber knows no borders, no race, no oceans, no languages, no politics ? and I believe that this has been forgotten as people have stepped into a world of pure hegemony that was allowed to occur through member apathy.

What I have said time and again ? I will reiterate ? many do not like my methods ? nor do they like my solutions ? but ? what I am not seeing is other proposals that are concrete and that are not vague and in the air.  I am not seeing people argue with researched facts ? I am not seeing people correlate what they say to the law and the bylaws.  To quote a verse in the bible ? always be ready to offer a defence of your faith.  Part of offering a defence is an understanding and a researching of the issues  - it is not blind ? it does not argue with vague statements ? facts ? the law ? the bylaws ? that is the basis.

Will  I continue to do what I believe is in the best interests of an industry that I have given 23 years of my life to so far? Yes.  If others have solutions to the maladministration ? bring them.  If people don?t like what the bylaws say ? stop whining ? change them ? if people don?t like the management ? change it ? if people don?t like the policies ? advocate for why based on hard data and fact.

For me ? I stand for what I believe in ? and I will continue to do so ? and I do not believe that forcing someone to look in the mirror to see the organisation falling apart is scorched earth ? it is reality.  Remember ? no one told the Emperor he had no clothes?. How did that turn out?

Andrew

From: Ali Hussein [mailto:ali at hussein.me.ke]
Sent: 20 June 2018 18:08
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>; General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Andrew

As I recall your rabid objection to everything Afrinic started immediately you lost the elections as Board Member. Correct me if I?m wrong. If things are so dire as to call for the demise of the organization then what were you doing during the time you were a board member?

You missed the point as to why I wanted to remind EVERYONE ?the reason for being? of Afrinic. Your ?Scorched Earth Policy? against the organization is for no one?s benefit. Not even for you or your organization that is building a continent wide Network.

Let us be mature on how we engage. We agree that things are not right at Afrinic. What you and I disagree on is the process of how to correct it. We must do it with maturity, decorum and respect of each other. All of which is sorely lacking at the moment.

Ali Hussein
Principal
AHK & Associates
+254 0713 601113


Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim<http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit."  ~ Aristotle



Sent from my iPad

On 20 Jun 2018, at 9:25 AM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Ok Ali,

Let me attempt this ? and you and I, it?s rare that we disagree with each other, and you know that I have immense respect for you, but in this case, disagree with you I must.

Firstly ? the micro-management of AFRINIC becomes necessary when AFRINIC refuses point blank to follow its own rules of engagement as defined by the bylaws.  Secondly ? to turn a blind eye to the ?small? issues is to let the organisation end up back where it was in 2014, teetering on the brink of total financial collapse, with no reserve, making sustained losses that could have ended the company.
Thirdly - Let us examine the core mission of AFRINIC and then let us score that:


  1.  "Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's sustainable development"

That simply isn?t happening ? no R&D that is visible to the community or the members to speak of, a IRDB that myself, and others on this list, have consistently says has serious problems and needs rectification ? with no indication of how this is going to be ? potentially putting the continent at risk if RIPE proceeds with certain actions inside its own DB working group ? A situation where members that do ALL their business on this continent asking why, after a year of attempting to get legitimate space they have none, yet in February 2018 an allocation is made that, within 2 months is being offered sale ? and AFRINIC?s only response to the multitude of queries is ?we?re investigating?? with no time frames given.  The denial of an application by one particular major content player that wanted to come onto this continent with a request that they provide proof of over 2 million domains they handle? Oh, and a statement by yet another major content player that AFRINIC and the situation it is in is ?unsettling for business on the continent? ? no ? AFRINIC is not driving sustained development ? and if you believe otherwise ? please ? tell me how they are



  1.  Community driven as a core value

This community asked for and was denied a vote of no confidence by the board, and using technicalities to do so.  This community has asked AFRINIC to explain the benefit members get out of the insane amount of travel (which btw, averages more than 6 trips per employee per year in 2017), and never had a proper answer.  This community has asked AFRINIC to explain how it plans to fix the *extremely* serious legal predicament it finds itself in, with the fact that it cannot get quorum to hold another AGMM and it cannot, by its own bylaws, elect directors to get that quorum ? and have been ignored.  So please ? tell me how we meet this objective



  1.  Operational excellence?  Really ? If you really need me to elaborate on this ? let me know ? I?ll happily paste the pages and pages of what members who are attempting to get space out of AFRINIC for very legitimate business needs are saying on lists all over the continent.



  1.  Passion?  Where is this passion ? What I see is that the members who are passionate about this organization and the good of the continent and ensuring that the organization is financially sustainable and well run by good corporate governance are told to shut up ? go away ? and not make waves ? and not to sweat the small things.  We are closer to asking for apathy than we are for passion



  1.  Innovation & Creativity ? please Ali ? tell me where this is ? what innovation has come from AFRINIC?  Where is this innovation ? because if it?s there ? I do not see it ? and if I?m wrong ? then I need to be shown the error I am making.

So ? by my count so far ? in my view ? we are failing ENTIRELY on the vision ? and 4 core values you listed.  Now let?s move on to the next points:


  1.  People management ? Please ? just go back and look at the last few months ? I need not say anything more on this point
  2.  Plans & Processes? When I asked on this list if AFRINIC would adhere to the Mauritian code of corporate governance ? I was told that it was ?optional? for companies like AFRINIC (which is technically true).  When I have asked AFRINIC if they are willing to publish the minutes of the sub-board committees ? they have openly refused.  The strategic plan as it stands ? a strategic plan is a living document ? look at when that document that was sent was last revised or updated.  Let?s do a tangible analysis not just on the plans ? but on the delivery against those plans ? and see where we are ? I don?t think you?d like the results of such an analysis.
  3.  Budget Discipline and associated items ? This is an interesting one ? except ? there is a problem ? if your revenue is increasing at 10.7% and you are budgeting for opex increases in categories in excess of 20% and are budgeting against projected growth figures ? you have an issue.  When you stand and tell the members ? we wish to raise the fees by an effective 5% - while already making surplus ? and while you are not explaining the benefit to those putting in money of how you are spending your money ? no budget in the world covers for this.  A budget must be adhered to ? but the members of a non-profit organization should also have some say in how that money is spent ? particularly when they start to question if the money is being spent serving the company?s primary objective.  Myself and others ? we are certainly questioning if that is the case.
  4.  Community confidence / trust ? well ? again ? I don?t even need to comment on this ? the ballot box in Dakar spoke for itself
  5.  Continuous community engagement and support?  This needs to happen ? I 100% agree with you ? however, it needs to be defined what it means ? it does not mean giving away money to organisations that have NO accountability and that refuse to be audited for 10 years as an example.  It does not mean making the community wait months for answers to questions which directly affect this organization.  It does mean sticking to the clauses as defined in article 3 of the bylaws ? something AFRINIC has singularly failed to do ? in particular in terms of clause 3.4.vii of the bylaws.  Part of continuous community engagement is defined so well in 3.4.vii ? that states that the board should disseminate among its members information on _ALL_ matters affecting the Company and its members.  And as many of my comments above this will show ? that ? has not happened and is not happening.
  6.  Effective operational processes and an agile organizational structure ? Well, on this, I can only comment on what I see from outside ? and I would argue that if this existed ? the comments appearing on other lists around this continent about the constant struggle to get anything out of AFRINIC would not be there.  I would argue that if this existed ? the incidents that lead to a full blown investigation followed by a refusal to publish the actual report ? would not have come to fruition.

In my book ? and for many many others that I speak to on a daily basis ? AfriNIC fails on every single one of the above points.

So yes ? I openly called AFRINIC an abject failure as it stands today ? and I did so publicly ? because ? by any objective evaluation of the above points ? we have failed in a core mission ? we have failed in our core values ? and we have failed on the critical success factors.  We have plowed millions into training across the continent ? and while I realize that objectively measuring the success of training is pretty difficult ? considering how much of that training has been focused on IPv6 deployment ? and considering the V6 deployment rates across the continent ? we have failed there as well.  (Please note ? I do not blame the trainers here, I would say it?s probably more the fault of those who do not apply that training, but the reality remains ? if you are pouring money into something with no tangible results, you are failing ? badly)

So Ali ? when you say do not focus on the small issues ? From 2005 when I actively started engaging with AFRINIC ? I have seen a consistent refusal to focus on the macro issues ? a consistent refusal to focus on the micro issues ? and a consistent attempt to hide behind technicalities and every other thing in the book to avoid accountability and responsibility.  So right now, EVERY issue is in focus ? and I believe that the only way any organization can truly thrive, is to be willing to answer the questions and to take a long hard look at themselves, either through the questions their members ask or through external review ? and be willing to face the hard realities when they are going so terribly wrong.

Again ? I stand by my statement ? that by any objective measure right now ? AfriNIC has failed ? and while it has the ability to turn itself around ? the path it is on right now ? celebrating the failures rather than staying home and fixing the significant problems ? is no way to do that.  The path it is on right now ? leads to annihilation.

Andrew



From: Ali Hussein [mailto:ali at hussein.me.ke]
Sent: 20 June 2018 08:03
To: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com<mailto:jnoulaye at gmail.com>>
Cc: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>; General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Hi all

Been following these conversations for the last few days with interest and dismay. We have become fractioned that we query and deem unnecessary such important events. We probably need to go back to the core reason Afrinic was created. let me recount our Vision and Mission:-

V
?ISION
?
"Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's sustainable development"


?MISSION
?
"To serve the African Community by providing professional and efficient management of Internet number technology usage and development, and promoting Internet self-governance."

?CORE VALUES?

  *   Community driven
  *   Operational excellence
  *   Passion
  *   Innovation & Creativity


  *   CRITICAL SUCCESS FACTORS

  *   ?
People management (right people, competent, mindset, engaged, clear objectives, committed, etc)

  *   Technical Infrastructure's reliability and resilience
  *   Plans & Processes
  *   Funding:

     *   Financial Sustainability
     *   Infrastructure and space
     *   Budget discipline

  *   Community Trust/Confidence
  *   Continuous community engagement and support
  *   Effective Operational Processes and Agile Organisational structure


?Instead of being so pedantic and questioning every little thing the organization is doing I say let's go back to these core issues above. And let's ask ourselves:-

Despite all the challenges we are currently facing what have we achieved? And when answering this let's not just speak about the paying members. Afrinic is much more than paying members! Afrinic is about the very Internet Ecosystem in the co?ntinent. Let us be circumspect lest we kill the baby with the bath water.

?Regards?


Ali Hussein

Principal

AHK & Associates



Tel: +254 713 601113

Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim<http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>



13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,

Chiromo Road, Westlands,

Nairobi, Kenya.

Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 1:50 AM, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com<mailto:jnoulaye at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Andrew,
I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last couple of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to tell you to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to another RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body.
I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the  financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these multiple questions.
I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou event?
I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of respect to the ICANN body.
For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am requesting  the Board to put you under discipline because of these attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.

Warm regards,
Janvier NGNOULAYE
Afrinic Member
Former Afrinic Board member
Yaounde - Cameroon


Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> a ?crit :
Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking that? Or attempt to deny it?

Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.

I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own purposes.

? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate members of this list to members of that group ? but *shrug* who cares ? its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ? I stand by that one

Andrew

From: William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com<mailto:wametozion at gmail.com>>
Date: Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>
Cc: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net<mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>>, "community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>" <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>, AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Dear Community,

I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.

Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that we have made progress .

No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.

I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.

Thank you.

On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Alan,

Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:

Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
Sponsorship $3000
Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
5 total people

Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?

I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here

Andrew

From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net<mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>]
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:15
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting



> On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
> So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.

AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.

Regards,

Alan Barrett
CEO, AFRINIC


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

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From kmw.elitcha at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 17:25:49 2018
From: kmw.elitcha at gmail.com (Komi Elitcha)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 17:25:49 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <559ADD49-D014-420B-A438-C2DAD3858B95@hussein.me.ke>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN0q0kE9S9ZJ4t2JHxqCV2wZeLx+VPsi7MdMkabXR18DtQqTxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <559ADD49-D014-420B-A438-C2DAD3858B95@hussein.me.ke>
Message-ID: <661256cb-865e-b0fb-7cdb-c4cac68897ad@gmail.com>

Ali,

I am also for the right of every participant in this community not to be
muzzled but not to the detriment of the organisation.??

We already have a code of conduct for rpd, community and members list[1]
that resolves the issue of a distracting participant.? No reason why the
rulebook cannot be thrown at a member who drags the reputation of the
organisation in the mud in the name of defending its ideals.

I would also be interested in answers to Janvier's question as the
member in question happens to be Liquid Telecom.




[1] https://www.afrinic.net/community/code-of-conduct


Le 20/06/2018 ? 15:38, Ali Hussein a ?crit?:
> Komi?
>
> All I can say is this:
>
> I may not like what Andrew says but I will defend to the death his
> right to say it ~ Paraphrased from a quote by the French philosopher,
> Voltaire.
>
> These sort of threats only work in a police state and have no place in
> a community based organization like Afrinic.
>
> Regards?
>
> *Ali Hussein*
> *Principal*
> *AHK & Associates*
> +254 0713 601113?
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>
> Skype: abu-jomo
>
> LinkedIn:?http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>
>
> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act
> but a habit." ?~?Aristotle
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 20 Jun 2018, at 4:33 PM, Komi Elitcha <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com
> <mailto:kmw.elitcha at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Hello AFRINIC BoD,
>>
>> Based on what has been going on for a while over the years, with
>> liquid telecom an afrinic ressources member engaging in many actions
>> which affect afrinic reputation and also expose the organization to
>> legal risks, I want to encourage The board to propose a code of
>> conduct for afrinic members.??
>>
>> Failure to comply to this code of conduct by liquid telecom or any
>> other? members, board shall invoke section 8.2(iii) of the bylaws and
>> terminate their membership
>>
>> 8.2 The membership of a Resource Member shall terminate upon:
>> (iii) the Board, acting reasonably and in good faith, determining
>> that the Resource Member has refused or failed to comply with the
>> provisions of this Constitution or any applicable rule made by the Board;
>>
>>
>> Le mar. 19 juin 2018 22:52, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com
>> <mailto:jnoulaye at gmail.com>> a ?crit?:
>>
>>     Dear Andrew,
>>     I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this
>>     last couple of months, in such that, with all respect due to you,
>>     I wanted to tell you to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go
>>     rent your resources to another RIR.? Afrinic will not died.
>>     Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage
>>     yourself or your company? Because it is inacceptable that a
>>     single member micromanages Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to
>>     the Afrinic body.?
>>     I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should
>>     have never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to
>>     wait for the? financial annual report or the auditor's report at
>>     the AGMM to ask these multiple questions.
>>     I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget
>>     the principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the
>>     Board reports to members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with
>>     the questions on the figures in the mid-year budget and
>>     particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou event??
>>     I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the
>>     point of asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this
>>     is again a lack of respect to the ICANN body.
>>     For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of
>>     the Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:?
>>     I am requesting? the Board to put you under discipline because of
>>     these attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.
>>
>>     Warm regards,
>>     Janvier NGNOULAYE
>>     Afrinic Member
>>     Former Afrinic Board member?
>>     Yaounde - Cameroon
>>
>>
>>     Le?mar. 19 juin 2018 ??22:09, Andrew Alston
>>     <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com
>>     <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> a ?crit?:
>>
>>         Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by
>>         you leaking that? Or attempt to deny it?
>>
>>         ?
>>
>>         Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are
>>         on that group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I
>>         wouldn?t have posted it where half this list could already
>>         see it ? as plain as day.
>>
>>         ?
>>
>>         I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff
>>         off a group that has strict rules about external posts ? and
>>         post it here for your own purposes.
>>
>>         ?
>>
>>         ?And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to
>>         correlate members of this list to members of that group ? but
>>         **shrug** who cares ? its as good as a public post ? I don?t
>>         say things that I won?t stand by ? I stand by that one
>>
>>         ?
>>
>>         Andrew
>>
>>         ?
>>
>>         *From: *William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com
>>         <mailto:wametozion at gmail.com>>
>>         *Date: *Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
>>         *To: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com
>>         <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>
>>         *Cc: *Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net
>>         <mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>>,
>>         "community-discuss at afrinic.net
>>         <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>"
>>         <community-discuss at afrinic.net
>>         <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>, AFRINIC Board of
>>         Directors' List <board at afrinic.net <mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
>>         *Subject: *Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>>
>>         ?
>>
>>         Dear Community,
>>
>>         ?
>>
>>         I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member
>>         of AFRINIC Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to
>>         share with you.?
>>
>>         ?
>>
>>         Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must
>>         be told that we have made progress .
>>
>>         ?
>>
>>         No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa
>>         cannot be changed based on someone?s whims and caprices.
>>         Indeed pioneers deserve commendation and not unbridled hatred
>>         as shown. Africa deserves encouragement rather than this
>>         reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.
>>
>>         ?
>>
>>         I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends
>>         of Africa join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July
>>         6, 2018.
>>
>>         ?
>>
>>         Thank you.
>>
>>         ?
>>
>>         On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston
>>         <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com
>>         <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             Alan,
>>
>>             ?
>>
>>             Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ?
>>             can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to
>>             work out the approximate cost of attendance:
>>
>>             ?
>>
>>             Average cost per person in flights (based on previous
>>             financials) - $2049.50
>>
>>             Sponsorship $3000
>>
>>             Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500
>>             odd dollars per person (conservatively)
>>
>>             5 total people
>>
>>             ?
>>
>>             Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
>>
>>             ?
>>
>>             I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here
>>
>>             ?
>>
>>             Andrew
>>
>>             ?
>>
>>             *From:* Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net
>>             <mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>]
>>             *Sent:* 19 June 2018 16:15
>>             *To:* community-discuss at afrinic.net
>>             <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
>>             *Cc:* AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net
>>             <mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
>>             *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>>
>>             ?
>>
>>             ?
>>
>>
>>             > On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston
>>             <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com
>>             <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>>             >
>>             > So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose
>>             EXACTLY what was sponsored for this event ? how much ?
>>             who is going ? and what are the members paying towards an
>>             event that is not even listed on your events calendar?
>>             I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.
>>
>>             AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July
>>             2018, but was invited to participate. AFRINIC is
>>             contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and will cover the
>>             costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff,
>>             and the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.
>>
>>             Regards,
>>
>>             Alan Barrett
>>             CEO, AFRINIC
>>
>>
>>             _______________________________________________
>>             Community-Discuss mailing list
>>             Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>             <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>>             https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>>
>>             _______________________________________________
>>             Community-Discuss mailing list
>>             Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>             <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>>             https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>>         ?
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         Community-Discuss mailing list
>>         Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>         <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>>         https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Community-Discuss mailing list
>>     Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>>     https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss

-- 
--
KE

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From sm+afrinic at elandsys.com  Wed Jun 20 19:39:17 2018
From: sm+afrinic at elandsys.com (S Moonesamy)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 12:39:17 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB257077867EB8FE29AEEA07CBEE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.e
 urprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <3C9E1AF8-8D9F-4C97-9145-81D665505CF8@hussein.me.ke>
 <HE1PR0301MB257077867EB8FE29AEEA07CBEE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20180620122102.10ab7e20@elandnews.com>

Hello,

I read a comment about travels costs since 2014.  The budgeted item 
[1] was as follows:

   Year
   2014     $410,000
   2015     $390,000
   2016     $525,400
   2017     $525,000
   2018     $490,000

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. Amounts are in USD.




From ali at hussein.me.ke  Thu Jun 21 03:15:08 2018
From: ali at hussein.me.ke (Ali Hussein)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 06:15:08 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB257077867EB8FE29AEEA07CBEE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <3C9E1AF8-8D9F-4C97-9145-81D665505CF8@hussein.me.ke>
 <HE1PR0301MB257077867EB8FE29AEEA07CBEE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjmBy1BjJ1XRM-mJ2kO64RM9e+MJnT4-xZ2J5k9Mn1TEh94CA@mail.gmail.com>

Andrew

We can agree to disagree. I don't dispute the problems. I don't think
anyone does. What I dispute is the method. This is not how we build
community. As Africans, if there is something wrong in the village, you
don't burn the village... Is all I'm saying..

*Ali Hussein*

*Principal*

*AHK & Associates*



Tel: +254 713 601113

Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
<http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>


13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,

Chiromo Road, Westlands,

Nairobi, Kenya.

Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely
mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the
organizations that I work with.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 7:00 PM, Andrew Alston <
Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:

> Ali,
>
>
>
> Actually ? what I did and what I said on the board ? I am quite happy for
> the board to open the NDA and let us publish that.  I am tied ? I cannot
> reveal that which I said and did there ? and I would WELCOME a chance to do
> that.
>
>
>
> I asked the board to publish the audit-co report ? they refused.  Let?s
> lift the seal on the executive sessions.  Let?s lift the redactions.  Let?s
> be open and transparent about what was said ? Let us open the board list to
> public scrutiny.
>
>
>
> Bring it on.
>
>
>
> What was I doing though Ali?  I was trying for years to fix the
> organisation ? as I might add were certain other former board members.  In
> some areas ? we succeeded ? in others ? we failed ? and I have no problem
> saying that.  What scares me is ? a lot of the gains ? now seem to be going
> backwards.  As stated ? look at the travel costs that are now at the
> highest level since 2014.
>
>
>
> My scorched earth policy Ali, is based on an intimate knowledge of the
> internals, of things I have seen, and from trying ? and realizing that the
> problems related to the board and the management ? those ? I still think we
> MAY be able to fix ? if we start over ? if we stop clinging to the past ?
> if we remove institutions which allow people to hang around for a MINIMUM
> of **18** years.  However, such a fixes, require the board and the
> management to actually engage and be accountable and WANT to fix it.  It
> requires people to analyse the issues ? and be willing to talk about them.
> It requires people to submit to the member base to which they are
> accountable.  I see none of that.  I see a situation where ? the
> transparency that we do have today ? was created by controversy that was
> stirred in Djibouti ? because without it ? no one cared.  It required a
> lightning rod ? but the transparency is now being eroded.
>
>
>
> If you believe for half a second that I spent years and hours and hours
> doing this for fun, or for a joke, then ? think again my friend ? I fight
> for what I believe in, and I believe in this continent, I believe in the
> need for the internet to grow and florish, I believe that light on a fiber
> knows no borders, no race, no oceans, no languages, no politics ? and I
> believe that this has been forgotten as people have stepped into a world of
> pure hegemony that was allowed to occur through member apathy.
>
>
>
> What I have said time and again ? I will reiterate ? many do not like my
> methods ? nor do they like my solutions ? but ? what I am not seeing is
> other proposals that are concrete and that are not vague and in the air.  I
> am not seeing people argue with researched facts ? I am not seeing people
> correlate what they say to the law and the bylaws.  To quote a verse in the
> bible ? always be ready to offer a defence of your faith.  Part of offering
> a defence is an understanding and a researching of the issues  - it is not
> blind ? it does not argue with vague statements ? facts ? the law ? the
> bylaws ? that is the basis.
>
>
>
> Will  I continue to do what I believe is in the best interests of an
> industry that I have given 23 years of my life to so far? Yes.  If others
> have solutions to the maladministration ? bring them.  If people don?t like
> what the bylaws say ? stop whining ? change them ? if people don?t like the
> management ? change it ? if people don?t like the policies ? advocate for
> why based on hard data and fact.
>
>
>
> For me ? I stand for what I believe in ? and I will continue to do so ?
> and I do not believe that forcing someone to look in the mirror to see the
> organisation falling apart is scorched earth ? it is reality.  Remember ?
> no one told the Emperor he had no clothes?. How did that turn out?
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> *From:* Ali Hussein [mailto:ali at hussein.me.ke]
> *Sent:* 20 June 2018 18:08
> *To:* Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> *Cc:* Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>; General Discussions of
> AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List
> <board at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> As I recall your rabid objection to everything Afrinic started immediately
> you lost the elections as Board Member. Correct me if I?m wrong. If things
> are so dire as to call for the demise of the organization then what were
> you doing during the time you were a board member?
>
>
>
> You missed the point as to why I wanted to remind EVERYONE ?the reason for
> being? of Afrinic. Your ?Scorched Earth Policy? against the organization is
> for no one?s benefit. Not even for you or your organization that is
> building a continent wide Network.
>
>
>
> Let us be mature on how we engage. We agree that things are not right at
> Afrinic. What you and I disagree on is the process of how to correct it. We
> must do it with maturity, decorum and respect of each other. All of which
> is sorely lacking at the moment.
>
>
>
> *Ali Hussein*
>
> *Principal*
>
> *AHK & Associates*
>
> +254 0713 601113
>
>
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>
> Skype: abu-jomo
>
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>
>
>
> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
> habit."  ~ Aristotle
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
> On 20 Jun 2018, at 9:25 AM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> wrote:
>
> Ok Ali,
>
>
>
> Let me attempt this ? and you and I, it?s rare that we disagree with each
> other, and you know that I have immense respect for you, but in this case,
> disagree with you I must.
>
>
>
> Firstly ? the micro-management of AFRINIC becomes necessary when AFRINIC
> refuses point blank to follow its own rules of engagement as defined by the
> bylaws.  Secondly ? to turn a blind eye to the ?small? issues is to let the
> organisation end up back where it was in 2014, teetering on the brink of
> total financial collapse, with no reserve, making sustained losses that
> could have ended the company.
>
> Thirdly - Let us examine the core mission of AFRINIC and then let us score
> that:
>
>
>
>    1. "Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's
>    sustainable development"
>
> That simply isn?t happening ? no R&D that is visible to the community or
> the members to speak of, a IRDB that myself, and others on this list, have
> consistently says has serious problems and needs rectification ? with no
> indication of how this is going to be ? potentially putting the continent
> at risk if RIPE proceeds with certain actions inside its own DB working
> group ? A situation where members that do ALL their business on this
> continent asking why, after a year of attempting to get legitimate space
> they have none, yet in February 2018 an allocation is made that, within 2
> months is being offered sale ? and AFRINIC?s only response to the multitude
> of queries is ?we?re investigating?? with no time frames given.  The denial
> of an application by one particular major content player that wanted to
> come onto this continent with a request that they provide proof of over 2
> million domains they handle? Oh, and a statement by yet another major
> content player that AFRINIC and the situation it is in is ?unsettling for
> business on the continent? ? no ? AFRINIC is not driving sustained
> development ? and if you believe otherwise ? please ? tell me how they are
>
>
>
>    1. Community driven as a core value
>
> This community asked for and was denied a vote of no confidence by the
> board, and using technicalities to do so.  This community has asked AFRINIC
> to explain the benefit members get out of the insane amount of travel
> (which btw, averages more than 6 trips per employee per year in 2017), and
> never had a proper answer.  This community has asked AFRINIC to explain how
> it plans to fix the **extremely** serious legal predicament it finds
> itself in, with the fact that it cannot get quorum to hold another AGMM and
> it cannot, by its own bylaws, elect directors to get that quorum ? and have
> been ignored.  So please ? tell me how we meet this objective
>
>
>
>    1. Operational excellence?  Really ? If you really need me to
>    elaborate on this ? let me know ? I?ll happily paste the pages and pages of
>    what members who are attempting to get space out of AFRINIC for very
>    legitimate business needs are saying on lists all over the continent.
>
>
>
>    1. Passion?  Where is this passion ? What I see is that the members
>    who are passionate about this organization and the good of the continent
>    and ensuring that the organization is financially sustainable and well run
>    by good corporate governance are told to shut up ? go away ? and not make
>    waves ? and not to sweat the small things.  We are closer to asking for
>    apathy than we are for passion
>
>
>
>    1. Innovation & Creativity ? please Ali ? tell me where this is ? what
>    innovation has come from AFRINIC?  Where is this innovation ? because if
>    it?s there ? I do not see it ? and if I?m wrong ? then I need to be shown
>    the error I am making.
>
>
>
> So ? by my count so far ? in my view ? we are failing ENTIRELY on the
> vision ? and 4 core values you listed.  Now let?s move on to the next
> points:
>
>
>
>    1. People management ? Please ? just go back and look at the last few
>    months ? I need not say anything more on this point
>    2. Plans & Processes? When I asked on this list if AFRINIC would
>    adhere to the Mauritian code of corporate governance ? I was told that it
>    was ?optional? for companies like AFRINIC (which is technically true).
>    When I have asked AFRINIC if they are willing to publish the minutes of the
>    sub-board committees ? they have openly refused.  The strategic plan as it
>    stands ? a strategic plan is a living document ? look at when that document
>    that was sent was last revised or updated.  Let?s do a tangible analysis
>    not just on the plans ? but on the delivery against those plans ? and see
>    where we are ? I don?t think you?d like the results of such an analysis.
>    3. Budget Discipline and associated items ? This is an interesting one
>    ? except ? there is a problem ? if your revenue is increasing at 10.7% and
>    you are budgeting for opex increases in categories in excess of 20% and are
>    budgeting against projected growth figures ? you have an issue.  When you
>    stand and tell the members ? we wish to raise the fees by an effective 5% -
>    while already making surplus ? and while you are not explaining the benefit
>    to those putting in money of how you are spending your money ? no budget in
>    the world covers for this.  A budget must be adhered to ? but the members
>    of a non-profit organization should also have some say in how that money is
>    spent ? particularly when they start to question if the money is being
>    spent serving the company?s primary objective.  Myself and others ? we are
>    certainly questioning if that is the case.
>    4. Community confidence / trust ? well ? again ? I don?t even need to
>    comment on this ? the ballot box in Dakar spoke for itself
>    5. Continuous community engagement and support?  This needs to happen
>    ? I 100% agree with you ? however, it needs to be defined what it means ?
>    it does not mean giving away money to organisations that have NO
>    accountability and that refuse to be audited for 10 years as an example.
>    It does not mean making the community wait months for answers to questions
>    which directly affect this organization.  It does mean sticking to the
>    clauses as defined in article 3 of the bylaws ? something AFRINIC has
>    singularly failed to do ? in particular in terms of clause 3.4.vii of the
>    bylaws.  Part of continuous community engagement is defined so well in
>    3.4.vii ? that states that the board should disseminate among its members
>    information on _*ALL*_ matters affecting the Company and its members.
>    And as many of my comments above this will show ? that ? has not happened
>    and is not happening.
>    6. Effective operational processes and an agile organizational
>    structure ? Well, on this, I can only comment on what I see from outside ?
>    and I would argue that if this existed ? the comments appearing on other
>    lists around this continent about the constant struggle to get anything out
>    of AFRINIC would not be there.  I would argue that if this existed ? the
>    incidents that lead to a full blown investigation followed by a refusal to
>    publish the actual report ? would not have come to fruition.
>
>
>
> In my book ? and for many many others that I speak to on a daily basis ?
> AfriNIC fails on every single one of the above points.
>
>
>
> So yes ? I openly called AFRINIC an abject failure as it stands today ?
> and I did so publicly ? because ? by any objective evaluation of the above
> points ? we have failed in a core mission ? we have failed in our core
> values ? and we have failed on the critical success factors.  We have
> plowed millions into training across the continent ? and while I realize
> that objectively measuring the success of training is pretty difficult ?
> considering how much of that training has been focused on IPv6 deployment ?
> and considering the V6 deployment rates across the continent ? we have
> failed there as well.  (Please note ? I do not blame the trainers here, I
> would say it?s probably more the fault of those who do not apply that
> training, but the reality remains ? if you are pouring money into something
> with no tangible results, you are failing ? badly)
>
>
>
> So Ali ? when you say do not focus on the small issues ? >From 2005 when I
> actively started engaging with AFRINIC ? I have seen a consistent refusal
> to focus on the macro issues ? a consistent refusal to focus on the micro
> issues ? and a consistent attempt to hide behind technicalities and every
> other thing in the book to avoid accountability and responsibility.  So
> right now, EVERY issue is in focus ? and I believe that the only way any
> organization can truly thrive, is to be willing to answer the questions and
> to take a long hard look at themselves, either through the questions their
> members ask or through external review ? and be willing to face the hard
> realities when they are going so terribly wrong.
>
>
>
> Again ? I stand by my statement ? that by any objective measure right now
> ? AfriNIC has failed ? and while it has the ability to turn itself around ?
> the path it is on right now ? celebrating the failures rather than staying
> home and fixing the significant problems ? is no way to do that.  The path
> it is on right now ? leads to annihilation.
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Ali Hussein [mailto:ali at hussein.me.ke <ali at hussein.me.ke>]
> *Sent:* 20 June 2018 08:03
> *To:* Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>; General
> Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AFRINIC Board of
> Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
>
>
> Hi all
>
>
>
> Been following these conversations for the last few days with interest and
> dismay. We have become fractioned that we query and deem unnecessary such
> important events. We probably need to go back to the core reason Afrinic
> was created. let me recount our Vision and Mission:-
>
>
>
> V
>
> ?ISION
>
> ?
>
> "Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's sustainable
> development"
>
>
>
>
>
> ?MISSION
>
> ?
>
> "To serve the African Community by providing professional and efficient
> management of Internet number technology usage and development, and
> promoting Internet self-governance."
>
>
>
> *?**CORE VALUES**?*
>
>    - Community driven
>    - Operational excellence
>    - Passion
>    - Innovation & Creativity
>
>
>
>    - *CRITICAL SUCCESS FACTORS*
>
>
>    - ?
>
> People management (right people, competent, mindset, engaged, clear
> objectives, committed, etc)
>
>    - Technical Infrastructure's reliability and resilience
>    - Plans & Processes
>    - Funding:
>
>
>    - Financial Sustainability
>       - Infrastructure and space
>       - Budget discipline
>
>
>    - Community Trust/Confidence
>    - Continuous community engagement and support
>    - Effective Operational Processes and Agile Organisational structure
>
>
>
> *?*Instead of being so pedantic and questioning every little thing the
> organization is doing I say let's go back to these core issues above. And
> let's ask ourselves:-
>
>
>
> Despite all the challenges we are currently facing what have we achieved?
> And when answering this let's not just speak about the paying members.
> Afrinic is much more than paying members! Afrinic is about the very
> Internet Ecosystem in the co?ntinent. Let us be circumspect lest we kill
> the baby with the bath water.
>
>
>
> ?Regards?
>
>
>
> *Ali Hussein*
>
> *Principal*
>
> *AHK & Associates*
>
>
>
> Tel: +254 713 601113
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>
> Skype: abu-jomo
>
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>
>
>
> 13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,
>
> Chiromo Road, Westlands,
>
> Nairobi, Kenya.
>
>
> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely
> mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the
> organizations that I work with.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 1:50 AM, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Andrew,
>
> I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last couple
> of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to tell you
> to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to another
> RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
>
> Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or
> your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages
> Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body.
>
> I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have
> never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the
> financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these
> multiple questions.
>
> I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the
> principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to
> members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the
> figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou
> event?
>
> I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of
> asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of
> respect to the ICANN body.
>
> For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the
> Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am
> requesting  the Board to put you under discipline because of these
> attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.
>
>
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Janvier NGNOULAYE
>
> Afrinic Member
>
> Former Afrinic Board member
>
> Yaounde - Cameroon
>
>
>
>
>
> Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.
> com> a ?crit :
>
> Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking
> that? Or attempt to deny it?
>
>
>
> Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that
> group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it
> where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.
>
>
>
> I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group
> that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own
> purposes.
>
>
>
> ? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate
> members of this list to members of that group ? but **shrug** who cares ?
> its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ? I
> stand by that one
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> *From: *William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
> *To: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> *Cc: *Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>, "
> community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, AFRINIC
> Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> *Subject: *Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
>
>
> Dear Community,
>
>
>
> I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC
> Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.
>
>
>
> Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that
> we have made progress .
>
>
>
> No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be
> changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve
> commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves
> encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.
>
>
>
> I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa
> join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> wrote:
>
> Alan,
>
>
>
> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate
> as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of
> attendance:
>
>
>
> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) -
> $2049.50
>
> Sponsorship $3000
>
> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per
> person (conservatively)
>
> 5 total people
>
>
>
> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
>
>
>
> I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> *From:* Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
> *Sent:* 19 June 2018 16:15
> *To:* community-discuss at afrinic.net
> *Cc:* AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was
> sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the
> members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events
> calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.
>
> AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was
> invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and
> will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and
> the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.
>
> Regards,
>
> Alan Barrett
> CEO, AFRINIC
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
>
>
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From ali at hussein.me.ke  Thu Jun 21 03:18:33 2018
From: ali at hussein.me.ke (Ali Hussein)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 06:18:33 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <661256cb-865e-b0fb-7cdb-c4cac68897ad@gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN0q0kE9S9ZJ4t2JHxqCV2wZeLx+VPsi7MdMkabXR18DtQqTxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <559ADD49-D014-420B-A438-C2DAD3858B95@hussein.me.ke>
 <661256cb-865e-b0fb-7cdb-c4cac68897ad@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjmBy05QgMq2E2DJn949FPyHEiLQ+wxZNRyYuaM3xCJjWMjtQ@mail.gmail.com>

Komi

Andrew may be speaking from a personal perspective as opposed to speaking
on behalf of Liquid. Either way I don't think threats at this point are
productive. We need to double back, tone down and find solutions.

Regards

*Ali Hussein*

*Principal*

*AHK & Associates*



Tel: +254 713 601113

Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
<http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>


13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,

Chiromo Road, Westlands,

Nairobi, Kenya.

Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely
mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the
organizations that I work with.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 8:25 PM, Komi Elitcha <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ali,
>
> I am also for the right of every participant in this community not to be
> muzzled but not to the detriment of the organisation.
>
> We already have a code of conduct for rpd, community and members list[1]
> that resolves the issue of a distracting participant.  No reason why the
> rulebook cannot be thrown at a member who drags the reputation of the
> organisation in the mud in the name of defending its ideals.
>
> I would also be interested in answers to Janvier's question as the member
> in question happens to be Liquid Telecom.
>
>
>
>
> [1] https://www.afrinic.net/community/code-of-conduct
>
> Le 20/06/2018 ? 15:38, Ali Hussein a ?crit :
>
> Komi
>
> All I can say is this:
>
> I may not like what Andrew says but I will defend to the death his right
> to say it ~ Paraphrased from a quote by the French philosopher, Voltaire.
>
> These sort of threats only work in a police state and have no place in a
> community based organization like Afrinic.
>
> Regards
>
> *Ali Hussein*
> *Principal*
> *AHK & Associates*
> +254 0713 601113
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>
> Skype: abu-jomo
>
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>
> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
> habit."  ~ Aristotle
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 20 Jun 2018, at 4:33 PM, Komi Elitcha <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello AFRINIC BoD,
>
> Based on what has been going on for a while over the years, with liquid
> telecom an afrinic ressources member engaging in many actions which affect
> afrinic reputation and also expose the organization to legal risks, I want
> to encourage The board to propose a code of conduct for afrinic members.
>
> Failure to comply to this code of conduct by liquid telecom or any other
> members, board shall invoke section 8.2(iii) of the bylaws and terminate
> their membership
>
> 8.2 The membership of a Resource Member shall terminate upon:
> (iii) the Board, acting reasonably and in good faith, determining that the
> Resource Member has refused or failed to comply with the provisions of this
> Constitution or any applicable rule made by the Board;
>
>
> Le mar. 19 juin 2018 22:52, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com> a
> ?crit :
>
>> Dear Andrew,
>> I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last
>> couple of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to
>> tell you to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to
>> another RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
>> Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or
>> your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages
>> Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body.
>> I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have
>> never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the
>> financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these
>> multiple questions.
>> I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the
>> principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to
>> members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the
>> figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou
>> event?
>> I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of
>> asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of
>> respect to the ICANN body.
>> For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the
>> Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am
>> requesting  the Board to put you under discipline because of these
>> attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.
>>
>> Warm regards,
>> Janvier NGNOULAYE
>> Afrinic Member
>> Former Afrinic Board member
>> Yaounde - Cameroon
>>
>>
>> Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.
>> com> a ?crit :
>>
>>> Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking
>>> that? Or attempt to deny it?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that
>>> group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it
>>> where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group
>>> that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own
>>> purposes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to
>>> correlate members of this list to members of that group ? but **shrug**
>>> who cares ? its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t
>>> stand by ? I stand by that one
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com>
>>> *Date: *Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
>>> *To: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
>>> *Cc: *Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>, "
>>> community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, AFRINIC
>>> Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Community,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC
>>> Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told
>>> that we have made progress .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be
>>> changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve
>>> commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves
>>> encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa
>>> join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Alan,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we
>>> calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate
>>> cost of attendance:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) -
>>> $2049.50
>>>
>>> Sponsorship $3000
>>>
>>> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars
>>> per person (conservatively)
>>>
>>> 5 total people
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
>>> *Sent:* 19 June 2018 16:15
>>> *To:* community-discuss at afrinic.net
>>> *Cc:* AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.
>>> com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what
>>> was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the
>>> members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events
>>> calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.
>>>
>>> AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was
>>> invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and
>>> will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and
>>> the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Alan Barrett
>>> CEO, AFRINIC
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> --
> --
> KE
>
>
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Thu Jun 21 05:00:42 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 05:00:42 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAPjmBy1BjJ1XRM-mJ2kO64RM9e+MJnT4-xZ2J5k9Mn1TEh94CA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <3C9E1AF8-8D9F-4C97-9145-81D665505CF8@hussein.me.ke>
 <HE1PR0301MB257077867EB8FE29AEEA07CBEE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>,
 <CAPjmBy1BjJ1XRM-mJ2kO64RM9e+MJnT4-xZ2J5k9Mn1TEh94CA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB25702E49CB00EEA32F00797FEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Ali,

Agreed we can agree to disagree - but - I say the same thing I have always said - if you disagree with the methods I respect that - all I ask then is that you propose alternatives. Lots of people disagree with my methods - so we are heavy on disagreement - but we are very light on alternative solutions.

As a final thought on this subject - since we are going the metaphor route - if you build a house and after you finish building it - it catches fire - generally you call the fire brigade and get some buckets of water and try and put the fire out. You don?t go next door to your neighbors (let?s call them the Cotonou?s) while the house is burning, to attend a party to celebrate the completion of building your house - because if you - when you get back from the party - your house may be in ashes.

Andrew

________________________________
From: Ali Hussein <ali at hussein.me.ke>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 6:15 AM
To: Andrew Alston
Cc: Janvier NGNOULAYE; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Andrew

We can agree to disagree. I don't dispute the problems. I don't think anyone does. What I dispute is the method. This is not how we build community. As Africans, if there is something wrong in the village, you don't burn the village... Is all I'm saying..


Ali Hussein

Principal

AHK & Associates



Tel: +254 713 601113

Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn:http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim<http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim><http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>


13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,

Chiromo Road, Westlands,

Nairobi, Kenya.

Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 7:00 PM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Ali,

Actually ? what I did and what I said on the board ? I am quite happy for the board to open the NDA and let us publish that.  I am tied ? I cannot reveal that which I said and did there ? and I would WELCOME a chance to do that.

I asked the board to publish the audit-co report ? they refused.  Let?s lift the seal on the executive sessions.  Let?s lift the redactions.  Let?s be open and transparent about what was said ? Let us open the board list to public scrutiny.

Bring it on.

What was I doing though Ali?  I was trying for years to fix the organisation ? as I might add were certain other former board members.  In some areas ? we succeeded ? in others ? we failed ? and I have no problem saying that.  What scares me is ? a lot of the gains ? now seem to be going backwards.  As stated ? look at the travel costs that are now at the highest level since 2014.

My scorched earth policy Ali, is based on an intimate knowledge of the internals, of things I have seen, and from trying ? and realizing that the problems related to the board and the management ? those ? I still think we MAY be able to fix ? if we start over ? if we stop clinging to the past ? if we remove institutions which allow people to hang around for a MINIMUM of *18* years.  However, such a fixes, require the board and the management to actually engage and be accountable and WANT to fix it.  It requires people to analyse the issues ? and be willing to talk about them.  It requires people to submit to the member base to which they are accountable.  I see none of that.  I see a situation where ? the transparency that we do have today ? was created by controversy that was stirred in Djibouti ? because without it ? no one cared.  It required a lightning rod ? but the transparency is now being eroded.

If you believe for half a second that I spent years and hours and hours doing this for fun, or for a joke, then ? think again my friend ? I fight for what I believe in, and I believe in this continent, I believe in the need for the internet to grow and florish, I believe that light on a fiber knows no borders, no race, no oceans, no languages, no politics ? and I believe that this has been forgotten as people have stepped into a world of pure hegemony that was allowed to occur through member apathy.

What I have said time and again ? I will reiterate ? many do not like my methods ? nor do they like my solutions ? but ? what I am not seeing is other proposals that are concrete and that are not vague and in the air.  I am not seeing people argue with researched facts ? I am not seeing people correlate what they say to the law and the bylaws.  To quote a verse in the bible ? always be ready to offer a defence of your faith.  Part of offering a defence is an understanding and a researching of the issues  - it is not blind ? it does not argue with vague statements ? facts ? the law ? the bylaws ? that is the basis.

Will  I continue to do what I believe is in the best interests of an industry that I have given 23 years of my life to so far? Yes.  If others have solutions to the maladministration ? bring them.  If people don?t like what the bylaws say ? stop whining ? change them ? if people don?t like the management ? change it ? if people don?t like the policies ? advocate for why based on hard data and fact.

For me ? I stand for what I believe in ? and I will continue to do so ? and I do not believe that forcing someone to look in the mirror to see the organisation falling apart is scorched earth ? it is reality.  Remember ? no one told the Emperor he had no clothes?. How did that turn out?

Andrew

From: Ali Hussein [mailto:ali at hussein.me.ke<mailto:ali at hussein.me.ke>]
Sent: 20 June 2018 18:08
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>
Cc: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com<mailto:jnoulaye at gmail.com>>; General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Andrew

As I recall your rabid objection to everything Afrinic started immediately you lost the elections as Board Member. Correct me if I?m wrong. If things are so dire as to call for the demise of the organization then what were you doing during the time you were a board member?

You missed the point as to why I wanted to remind EVERYONE ?the reason for being? of Afrinic. Your ?Scorched Earth Policy? against the organization is for no one?s benefit. Not even for you or your organization that is building a continent wide Network.

Let us be mature on how we engage. We agree that things are not right at Afrinic. What you and I disagree on is the process of how to correct it. We must do it with maturity, decorum and respect of each other. All of which is sorely lacking at the moment.

Ali Hussein
Principal
AHK & Associates
+254 0713 601113


Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim<http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit."  ~ Aristotle



Sent from my iPad

On 20 Jun 2018, at 9:25 AM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Ok Ali,

Let me attempt this ? and you and I, it?s rare that we disagree with each other, and you know that I have immense respect for you, but in this case, disagree with you I must.

Firstly ? the micro-management of AFRINIC becomes necessary when AFRINIC refuses point blank to follow its own rules of engagement as defined by the bylaws.  Secondly ? to turn a blind eye to the ?small? issues is to let the organisation end up back where it was in 2014, teetering on the brink of total financial collapse, with no reserve, making sustained losses that could have ended the company.
Thirdly - Let us examine the core mission of AFRINIC and then let us score that:


  1.  "Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's sustainable development"

That simply isn?t happening ? no R&D that is visible to the community or the members to speak of, a IRDB that myself, and others on this list, have consistently says has serious problems and needs rectification ? with no indication of how this is going to be ? potentially putting the continent at risk if RIPE proceeds with certain actions inside its own DB working group ? A situation where members that do ALL their business on this continent asking why, after a year of attempting to get legitimate space they have none, yet in February 2018 an allocation is made that, within 2 months is being offered sale ? and AFRINIC?s only response to the multitude of queries is ?we?re investigating?? with no time frames given.  The denial of an application by one particular major content player that wanted to come onto this continent with a request that they provide proof of over 2 million domains they handle? Oh, and a statement by yet another major content player that AFRINIC and the situation it is in is ?unsettling for business on the continent? ? no ? AFRINIC is not driving sustained development ? and if you believe otherwise ? please ? tell me how they are



  1.  Community driven as a core value

This community asked for and was denied a vote of no confidence by the board, and using technicalities to do so.  This community has asked AFRINIC to explain the benefit members get out of the insane amount of travel (which btw, averages more than 6 trips per employee per year in 2017), and never had a proper answer.  This community has asked AFRINIC to explain how it plans to fix the *extremely* serious legal predicament it finds itself in, with the fact that it cannot get quorum to hold another AGMM and it cannot, by its own bylaws, elect directors to get that quorum ? and have been ignored.  So please ? tell me how we meet this objective



  1.  Operational excellence?  Really ? If you really need me to elaborate on this ? let me know ? I?ll happily paste the pages and pages of what members who are attempting to get space out of AFRINIC for very legitimate business needs are saying on lists all over the continent.



  1.  Passion?  Where is this passion ? What I see is that the members who are passionate about this organization and the good of the continent and ensuring that the organization is financially sustainable and well run by good corporate governance are told to shut up ? go away ? and not make waves ? and not to sweat the small things.  We are closer to asking for apathy than we are for passion



  1.  Innovation & Creativity ? please Ali ? tell me where this is ? what innovation has come from AFRINIC?  Where is this innovation ? because if it?s there ? I do not see it ? and if I?m wrong ? then I need to be shown the error I am making.

So ? by my count so far ? in my view ? we are failing ENTIRELY on the vision ? and 4 core values you listed.  Now let?s move on to the next points:


  1.  People management ? Please ? just go back and look at the last few months ? I need not say anything more on this point
  2.  Plans & Processes? When I asked on this list if AFRINIC would adhere to the Mauritian code of corporate governance ? I was told that it was ?optional? for companies like AFRINIC (which is technically true).  When I have asked AFRINIC if they are willing to publish the minutes of the sub-board committees ? they have openly refused.  The strategic plan as it stands ? a strategic plan is a living document ? look at when that document that was sent was last revised or updated.  Let?s do a tangible analysis not just on the plans ? but on the delivery against those plans ? and see where we are ? I don?t think you?d like the results of such an analysis.
  3.  Budget Discipline and associated items ? This is an interesting one ? except ? there is a problem ? if your revenue is increasing at 10.7% and you are budgeting for opex increases in categories in excess of 20% and are budgeting against projected growth figures ? you have an issue.  When you stand and tell the members ? we wish to raise the fees by an effective 5% - while already making surplus ? and while you are not explaining the benefit to those putting in money of how you are spending your money ? no budget in the world covers for this.  A budget must be adhered to ? but the members of a non-profit organization should also have some say in how that money is spent ? particularly when they start to question if the money is being spent serving the company?s primary objective.  Myself and others ? we are certainly questioning if that is the case.
  4.  Community confidence / trust ? well ? again ? I don?t even need to comment on this ? the ballot box in Dakar spoke for itself
  5.  Continuous community engagement and support?  This needs to happen ? I 100% agree with you ? however, it needs to be defined what it means ? it does not mean giving away money to organisations that have NO accountability and that refuse to be audited for 10 years as an example.  It does not mean making the community wait months for answers to questions which directly affect this organization.  It does mean sticking to the clauses as defined in article 3 of the bylaws ? something AFRINIC has singularly failed to do ? in particular in terms of clause 3.4.vii of the bylaws.  Part of continuous community engagement is defined so well in 3.4.vii ? that states that the board should disseminate among its members information on _ALL_ matters affecting the Company and its members.  And as many of my comments above this will show ? that ? has not happened and is not happening.
  6.  Effective operational processes and an agile organizational structure ? Well, on this, I can only comment on what I see from outside ? and I would argue that if this existed ? the comments appearing on other lists around this continent about the constant struggle to get anything out of AFRINIC would not be there.  I would argue that if this existed ? the incidents that lead to a full blown investigation followed by a refusal to publish the actual report ? would not have come to fruition.

In my book ? and for many many others that I speak to on a daily basis ? AfriNIC fails on every single one of the above points.

So yes ? I openly called AFRINIC an abject failure as it stands today ? and I did so publicly ? because ? by any objective evaluation of the above points ? we have failed in a core mission ? we have failed in our core values ? and we have failed on the critical success factors.  We have plowed millions into training across the continent ? and while I realize that objectively measuring the success of training is pretty difficult ? considering how much of that training has been focused on IPv6 deployment ? and considering the V6 deployment rates across the continent ? we have failed there as well.  (Please note ? I do not blame the trainers here, I would say it?s probably more the fault of those who do not apply that training, but the reality remains ? if you are pouring money into something with no tangible results, you are failing ? badly)

So Ali ? when you say do not focus on the small issues ? From 2005 when I actively started engaging with AFRINIC ? I have seen a consistent refusal to focus on the macro issues ? a consistent refusal to focus on the micro issues ? and a consistent attempt to hide behind technicalities and every other thing in the book to avoid accountability and responsibility.  So right now, EVERY issue is in focus ? and I believe that the only way any organization can truly thrive, is to be willing to answer the questions and to take a long hard look at themselves, either through the questions their members ask or through external review ? and be willing to face the hard realities when they are going so terribly wrong.

Again ? I stand by my statement ? that by any objective measure right now ? AfriNIC has failed ? and while it has the ability to turn itself around ? the path it is on right now ? celebrating the failures rather than staying home and fixing the significant problems ? is no way to do that.  The path it is on right now ? leads to annihilation.

Andrew



From: Ali Hussein [mailto:ali at hussein.me.ke]
Sent: 20 June 2018 08:03
To: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com<mailto:jnoulaye at gmail.com>>
Cc: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>; General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Hi all

Been following these conversations for the last few days with interest and dismay. We have become fractioned that we query and deem unnecessary such important events. We probably need to go back to the core reason Afrinic was created. let me recount our Vision and Mission:-

V
?ISION
?
"Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's sustainable development"


?MISSION
?
"To serve the African Community by providing professional and efficient management of Internet number technology usage and development, and promoting Internet self-governance."

?CORE VALUES?

  *   Community driven
  *   Operational excellence
  *   Passion
  *   Innovation & Creativity


  *   CRITICAL SUCCESS FACTORS

  *   ?
People management (right people, competent, mindset, engaged, clear objectives, committed, etc)

  *   Technical Infrastructure's reliability and resilience
  *   Plans & Processes
  *   Funding:

     *   Financial Sustainability
     *   Infrastructure and space
     *   Budget discipline

  *   Community Trust/Confidence
  *   Continuous community engagement and support
  *   Effective Operational Processes and Agile Organisational structure


?Instead of being so pedantic and questioning every little thing the organization is doing I say let's go back to these core issues above. And let's ask ourselves:-

Despite all the challenges we are currently facing what have we achieved? And when answering this let's not just speak about the paying members. Afrinic is much more than paying members! Afrinic is about the very Internet Ecosystem in the co?ntinent. Let us be circumspect lest we kill the baby with the bath water.

?Regards?


Ali Hussein

Principal

AHK & Associates



Tel: +254 713 601113

Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn:http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim<http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>



13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,

Chiromo Road, Westlands,

Nairobi, Kenya.

Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 1:50 AM, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com<mailto:jnoulaye at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Andrew,
I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last couple of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to tell you to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to another RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body.
I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the  financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these multiple questions.
I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou event?
I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of respect to the ICANN body.
For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am requesting  the Board to put you under discipline because of these attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.

Warm regards,
Janvier NGNOULAYE
Afrinic Member
Former Afrinic Board member
Yaounde - Cameroon


Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> a ?crit :
Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking that? Or attempt to deny it?

Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.

I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own purposes.

? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate members of this list to members of that group ? but *shrug* who cares ? its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ? I stand by that one

Andrew

From:William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com<mailto:wametozion at gmail.com>>
Date: Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>
Cc: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net<mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>>, "community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>" <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>, AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Dear Community,

I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.

Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that we have made progress .

No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.

I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.

Thank you.

On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Alan,

Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:

Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
Sponsorship $3000
Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
5 total people

Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?

I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here

Andrew

From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net<mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>]
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:15
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting



> On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
> So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.

AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.

Regards,

Alan Barrett
CEO, AFRINIC


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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Thu Jun 21 05:01:33 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 05:01:33 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20180620122102.10ab7e20@elandnews.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <3C9E1AF8-8D9F-4C97-9145-81D665505CF8@hussein.me.ke>
 <HE1PR0301MB257077867EB8FE29AEEA07CBEE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>,
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180620122102.10ab7e20@elandnews.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB25702138CA71C48D51A90C4BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

SM - use the AFS not the budgets please

Andrew

Liquid Telecommunications - Group Head Of IP Strategy
________________________________
From: S Moonesamy <sm+afrinic at elandsys.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 10:39:17 PM
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

Hello,

I read a comment about travels costs since 2014. The budgeted item
[1] was as follows:

Year
2014 $410,000
2015 $390,000
2016 $525,400
2017 $525,000
2018 $490,000

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. Amounts are in USD.


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From sm+afrinic at elandsys.com  Thu Jun 21 05:51:48 2018
From: sm+afrinic at elandsys.com (S Moonesamy)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 22:51:48 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB25702138CA71C48D51A90C4BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.e
 urprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <3C9E1AF8-8D9F-4C97-9145-81D665505CF8@hussein.me.ke>
 <HE1PR0301MB257077867EB8FE29AEEA07CBEE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180620122102.10ab7e20@elandnews.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB25702138CA71C48D51A90C4BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20180620224020.0bf867f0@elandnews.com>

Hi Andrew,
At 10:01 PM 20-06-2018, Andrew Alston wrote:
>SM - use the AFS not the budgets please

This is from the audited financial statements:

   Year
   2014    $529,678
   2015    $467,710
   2016    $414,286
   2017    $525,466

Regards,
S. Moonesamy 




From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Thu Jun 21 06:17:40 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 06:17:40 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20180620224020.0bf867f0@elandnews.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <3C9E1AF8-8D9F-4C97-9145-81D665505CF8@hussein.me.ke>
 <HE1PR0301MB257077867EB8FE29AEEA07CBEE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180620122102.10ab7e20@elandnews.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB25702138CA71C48D51A90C4BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180620224020.0bf867f0@elandnews.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB2570C37FA50581ED43DA9EFCEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

So - my original statements were then entirely correctly - 2017 travel costs hit levels not seen since 2014.

Thanks

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+afrinic at elandsys.com] 
Sent: 21 June 2018 08:52
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>; community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

Hi Andrew,
At 10:01 PM 20-06-2018, Andrew Alston wrote:
>SM - use the AFS not the budgets please

This is from the audited financial statements:

   Year
   2014    $529,678
   2015    $467,710
   2016    $414,286
   2017    $525,466

Regards,
S. Moonesamy 




From ali at hussein.me.ke  Thu Jun 21 06:41:52 2018
From: ali at hussein.me.ke (Ali Hussein)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 09:41:52 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB25702E49CB00EEA32F00797FEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <3C9E1AF8-8D9F-4C97-9145-81D665505CF8@hussein.me.ke>
 <HE1PR0301MB257077867EB8FE29AEEA07CBEE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPjmBy1BjJ1XRM-mJ2kO64RM9e+MJnT4-xZ2J5k9Mn1TEh94CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB25702E49CB00EEA32F00797FEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjmBy3Q-_xte8rh3jP3kEdSQzGZyEPv9E2nZOVxh-KUYds_+g@mail.gmail.com>

Andrew

My final comments on this is this:-

We have a Corporate Governance issue at Afrinic. In more ways than one.
Which I believe is the cause of all our problems. Let me enumerate.

1. When people feel disenfranchised and unrepresented they tend to start
being destructive.
2. When a public institution insists on secrets from the very community
that owns it..The community tend to be destructive.
3. When certain quarters feel more entitled than others.. They tend to be
destructive.

FIX THE GOVERNANCE ISSUES. FOCUS ON BEING INCLUSIVE. TIA (This is Africa).
And I say this in a very constructive way.

How do we fix the governance issue? I'm not an expert in governance but I
have enough experience (having served and continue to serve in various
boards including one that is a Nairobi Stock Exchange quoted company) to
know something is broken.

Let's get in an expert in Corporate Governance. Let her/him do a thorough
audit of the structures. Let them then present to the Board/Community with
a way forward.

That is my solution. Everything else, in my humble opinion will be like
trying to treat cancer with aspirin.

Regards


*Ali Hussein*

*Principal*

*AHK & Associates*



Tel: +254 713 601113

Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
<http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>


13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,

Chiromo Road, Westlands,

Nairobi, Kenya.

Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely
mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the
organizations that I work with.

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Andrew Alston <
Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:

> Ali,
>
> Agreed we can agree to disagree - but - I say the same thing I have always
> said - if you disagree with the methods I respect that - all I ask then is
> that you propose alternatives. Lots of people disagree with my methods - so
> we are heavy on disagreement - but we are very light on alternative
> solutions.
>
> As a final thought on this subject - since we are going the metaphor route
> - if you build a house and after you finish building it - it catches fire -
> generally you call the fire brigade and get some buckets of water and try
> and put the fire out. You don?t go next door to your neighbors (let?s call
> them the Cotonou?s) while the house is burning, to attend a party to
> celebrate the completion of building your house - because if you - when you
> get back from the party - your house may be in ashes.
>
> Andrew
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Ali Hussein <ali at hussein.me.ke>
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 21, 2018 6:15 AM
> *To:* Andrew Alston
> *Cc:* Janvier NGNOULAYE; General Discussions of AFRINIC; AFRINIC Board of
> Directors' List
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
> Andrew
>
> We can agree to disagree. I don't dispute the problems. I don't think
> anyone does. What I dispute is the method. This is not how we build
> community. As Africans, if there is something wrong in the village, you
> don't burn the village... Is all I'm saying..
>
> *Ali Hussein*
>
> *Principal*
>
> *AHK & Associates*
>
>
>
> Tel: +254 713 601113
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>
> Skype: abu-jomo
>
> LinkedIn:http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
> <http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>
>
>
> 13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,
>
> Chiromo Road, Westlands,
>
> Nairobi, Kenya.
>
> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely
> mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the
> organizations that I work with.
>
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 7:00 PM, Andrew Alston <
> Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>
>> Ali,
>>
>>
>>
>> Actually ? what I did and what I said on the board ? I am quite happy for
>> the board to open the NDA and let us publish that.  I am tied ? I cannot
>> reveal that which I said and did there ? and I would WELCOME a chance to do
>> that.
>>
>>
>>
>> I asked the board to publish the audit-co report ? they refused.  Let?s
>> lift the seal on the executive sessions.  Let?s lift the redactions.  Let?s
>> be open and transparent about what was said ? Let us open the board list to
>> public scrutiny.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bring it on.
>>
>>
>>
>> What was I doing though Ali?  I was trying for years to fix the
>> organisation ? as I might add were certain other former board members.  In
>> some areas ? we succeeded ? in others ? we failed ? and I have no problem
>> saying that.  What scares me is ? a lot of the gains ? now seem to be going
>> backwards.  As stated ? look at the travel costs that are now at the
>> highest level since 2014.
>>
>>
>>
>> My scorched earth policy Ali, is based on an intimate knowledge of the
>> internals, of things I have seen, and from trying ? and realizing that the
>> problems related to the board and the management ? those ? I still think we
>> MAY be able to fix ? if we start over ? if we stop clinging to the past ?
>> if we remove institutions which allow people to hang around for a MINIMUM
>> of **18** years.  However, such a fixes, require the board and the
>> management to actually engage and be accountable and WANT to fix it.  It
>> requires people to analyse the issues ? and be willing to talk about them.
>> It requires people to submit to the member base to which they are
>> accountable.  I see none of that.  I see a situation where ? the
>> transparency that we do have today ? was created by controversy that was
>> stirred in Djibouti ? because without it ? no one cared.  It required a
>> lightning rod ? but the transparency is now being eroded.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you believe for half a second that I spent years and hours and hours
>> doing this for fun, or for a joke, then ? think again my friend ? I fight
>> for what I believe in, and I believe in this continent, I believe in the
>> need for the internet to grow and florish, I believe that light on a fiber
>> knows no borders, no race, no oceans, no languages, no politics ? and I
>> believe that this has been forgotten as people have stepped into a world of
>> pure hegemony that was allowed to occur through member apathy.
>>
>>
>>
>> What I have said time and again ? I will reiterate ? many do not like my
>> methods ? nor do they like my solutions ? but ? what I am not seeing is
>> other proposals that are concrete and that are not vague and in the air.  I
>> am not seeing people argue with researched facts ? I am not seeing people
>> correlate what they say to the law and the bylaws.  To quote a verse in the
>> bible ? always be ready to offer a defence of your faith.  Part of offering
>> a defence is an understanding and a researching of the issues  - it is not
>> blind ? it does not argue with vague statements ? facts ? the law ? the
>> bylaws ? that is the basis.
>>
>>
>>
>> Will  I continue to do what I believe is in the best interests of an
>> industry that I have given 23 years of my life to so far? Yes.  If others
>> have solutions to the maladministration ? bring them.  If people don?t like
>> what the bylaws say ? stop whining ? change them ? if people don?t like the
>> management ? change it ? if people don?t like the policies ? advocate for
>> why based on hard data and fact.
>>
>>
>>
>> For me ? I stand for what I believe in ? and I will continue to do so ?
>> and I do not believe that forcing someone to look in the mirror to see the
>> organisation falling apart is scorched earth ? it is reality.  Remember ?
>> no one told the Emperor he had no clothes?. How did that turn out?
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Ali Hussein [mailto:ali at hussein.me.ke]
>> *Sent:* 20 June 2018 18:08
>> *To:* Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
>> *Cc:* Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>; General Discussions of
>> AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AFRINIC Board of Directors'
>> List <board at afrinic.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> As I recall your rabid objection to everything Afrinic started
>> immediately you lost the elections as Board Member. Correct me if I?m
>> wrong. If things are so dire as to call for the demise of the organization
>> then what were you doing during the time you were a board member?
>>
>>
>>
>> You missed the point as to why I wanted to remind EVERYONE ?the reason
>> for being? of Afrinic. Your ?Scorched Earth Policy? against the
>> organization is for no one?s benefit. Not even for you or your organization
>> that is building a continent wide Network.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let us be mature on how we engage. We agree that things are not right at
>> Afrinic. What you and I disagree on is the process of how to correct it. We
>> must do it with maturity, decorum and respect of each other. All of which
>> is sorely lacking at the moment.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Ali Hussein*
>>
>> *Principal*
>>
>> *AHK & Associates*
>>
>> +254 0713 601113
>>
>>
>>
>> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>>
>> Skype: abu-jomo
>>
>> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>>
>>
>>
>> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
>> habit."  ~ Aristotle
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>
>> On 20 Jun 2018, at 9:25 AM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.c
>> om> wrote:
>>
>> Ok Ali,
>>
>>
>>
>> Let me attempt this ? and you and I, it?s rare that we disagree with each
>> other, and you know that I have immense respect for you, but in this case,
>> disagree with you I must.
>>
>>
>>
>> Firstly ? the micro-management of AFRINIC becomes necessary when AFRINIC
>> refuses point blank to follow its own rules of engagement as defined by the
>> bylaws.  Secondly ? to turn a blind eye to the ?small? issues is to let the
>> organisation end up back where it was in 2014, teetering on the brink of
>> total financial collapse, with no reserve, making sustained losses that
>> could have ended the company.
>>
>> Thirdly - Let us examine the core mission of AFRINIC and then let us
>> score that:
>>
>>
>>
>>    1. "Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's
>>    sustainable development"
>>
>> That simply isn?t happening ? no R&D that is visible to the community or
>> the members to speak of, a IRDB that myself, and others on this list, have
>> consistently says has serious problems and needs rectification ? with no
>> indication of how this is going to be ? potentially putting the continent
>> at risk if RIPE proceeds with certain actions inside its own DB working
>> group ? A situation where members that do ALL their business on this
>> continent asking why, after a year of attempting to get legitimate space
>> they have none, yet in February 2018 an allocation is made that, within 2
>> months is being offered sale ? and AFRINIC?s only response to the multitude
>> of queries is ?we?re investigating?? with no time frames given.  The denial
>> of an application by one particular major content player that wanted to
>> come onto this continent with a request that they provide proof of over 2
>> million domains they handle? Oh, and a statement by yet another major
>> content player that AFRINIC and the situation it is in is ?unsettling for
>> business on the continent? ? no ? AFRINIC is not driving sustained
>> development ? and if you believe otherwise ? please ? tell me how they are
>>
>>
>>
>>    1. Community driven as a core value
>>
>> This community asked for and was denied a vote of no confidence by the
>> board, and using technicalities to do so.  This community has asked AFRINIC
>> to explain the benefit members get out of the insane amount of travel
>> (which btw, averages more than 6 trips per employee per year in 2017), and
>> never had a proper answer.  This community has asked AFRINIC to explain how
>> it plans to fix the **extremely** serious legal predicament it finds
>> itself in, with the fact that it cannot get quorum to hold another AGMM and
>> it cannot, by its own bylaws, elect directors to get that quorum ? and have
>> been ignored.  So please ? tell me how we meet this objective
>>
>>
>>
>>    1. Operational excellence?  Really ? If you really need me to
>>    elaborate on this ? let me know ? I?ll happily paste the pages and pages of
>>    what members who are attempting to get space out of AFRINIC for very
>>    legitimate business needs are saying on lists all over the continent.
>>
>>
>>
>>    1. Passion?  Where is this passion ? What I see is that the members
>>    who are passionate about this organization and the good of the continent
>>    and ensuring that the organization is financially sustainable and well run
>>    by good corporate governance are told to shut up ? go away ? and not make
>>    waves ? and not to sweat the small things.  We are closer to asking for
>>    apathy than we are for passion
>>
>>
>>
>>    1. Innovation & Creativity ? please Ali ? tell me where this is ?
>>    what innovation has come from AFRINIC?  Where is this innovation ? because
>>    if it?s there ? I do not see it ? and if I?m wrong ? then I need to be
>>    shown the error I am making.
>>
>>
>>
>> So ? by my count so far ? in my view ? we are failing ENTIRELY on the
>> vision ? and 4 core values you listed.  Now let?s move on to the next
>> points:
>>
>>
>>
>>    1. People management ? Please ? just go back and look at the last few
>>    months ? I need not say anything more on this point
>>    2. Plans & Processes? When I asked on this list if AFRINIC would
>>    adhere to the Mauritian code of corporate governance ? I was told that it
>>    was ?optional? for companies like AFRINIC (which is technically true).
>>    When I have asked AFRINIC if they are willing to publish the minutes of the
>>    sub-board committees ? they have openly refused.  The strategic plan as it
>>    stands ? a strategic plan is a living document ? look at when that document
>>    that was sent was last revised or updated.  Let?s do a tangible analysis
>>    not just on the plans ? but on the delivery against those plans ? and see
>>    where we are ? I don?t think you?d like the results of such an analysis.
>>    3. Budget Discipline and associated items ? This is an interesting
>>    one ? except ? there is a problem ? if your revenue is increasing at 10.7%
>>    and you are budgeting for opex increases in categories in excess of 20% and
>>    are budgeting against projected growth figures ? you have an issue.  When
>>    you stand and tell the members ? we wish to raise the fees by an effective
>>    5% - while already making surplus ? and while you are not explaining the
>>    benefit to those putting in money of how you are spending your money ? no
>>    budget in the world covers for this.  A budget must be adhered to ? but the
>>    members of a non-profit organization should also have some say in how that
>>    money is spent ? particularly when they start to question if the money is
>>    being spent serving the company?s primary objective.  Myself and others ?
>>    we are certainly questioning if that is the case.
>>    4. Community confidence / trust ? well ? again ? I don?t even need to
>>    comment on this ? the ballot box in Dakar spoke for itself
>>    5. Continuous community engagement and support?  This needs to happen
>>    ? I 100% agree with you ? however, it needs to be defined what it means ?
>>    it does not mean giving away money to organisations that have NO
>>    accountability and that refuse to be audited for 10 years as an example.
>>    It does not mean making the community wait months for answers to questions
>>    which directly affect this organization.  It does mean sticking to the
>>    clauses as defined in article 3 of the bylaws ? something AFRINIC has
>>    singularly failed to do ? in particular in terms of clause 3.4.vii of the
>>    bylaws.  Part of continuous community engagement is defined so well in
>>    3.4.vii ? that states that the board should disseminate among its members
>>    information on _*ALL*_ matters affecting the Company and its
>>    members.  And as many of my comments above this will show ? that ? has not
>>    happened and is not happening.
>>    6. Effective operational processes and an agile organizational
>>    structure ? Well, on this, I can only comment on what I see from outside ?
>>    and I would argue that if this existed ? the comments appearing on other
>>    lists around this continent about the constant struggle to get anything out
>>    of AFRINIC would not be there.  I would argue that if this existed ? the
>>    incidents that lead to a full blown investigation followed by a refusal to
>>    publish the actual report ? would not have come to fruition.
>>
>>
>>
>> In my book ? and for many many others that I speak to on a daily basis ?
>> AfriNIC fails on every single one of the above points.
>>
>>
>>
>> So yes ? I openly called AFRINIC an abject failure as it stands today ?
>> and I did so publicly ? because ? by any objective evaluation of the above
>> points ? we have failed in a core mission ? we have failed in our core
>> values ? and we have failed on the critical success factors.  We have
>> plowed millions into training across the continent ? and while I realize
>> that objectively measuring the success of training is pretty difficult ?
>> considering how much of that training has been focused on IPv6 deployment ?
>> and considering the V6 deployment rates across the continent ? we have
>> failed there as well.  (Please note ? I do not blame the trainers here, I
>> would say it?s probably more the fault of those who do not apply that
>> training, but the reality remains ? if you are pouring money into something
>> with no tangible results, you are failing ? badly)
>>
>>
>>
>> So Ali ? when you say do not focus on the small issues ? From 2005 when I
>> actively started engaging with AFRINIC ? I have seen a consistent refusal
>> to focus on the macro issues ? a consistent refusal to focus on the micro
>> issues ? and a consistent attempt to hide behind technicalities and every
>> other thing in the book to avoid accountability and responsibility.  So
>> right now, EVERY issue is in focus ? and I believe that the only way any
>> organization can truly thrive, is to be willing to answer the questions and
>> to take a long hard look at themselves, either through the questions their
>> members ask or through external review ? and be willing to face the hard
>> realities when they are going so terribly wrong.
>>
>>
>>
>> Again ? I stand by my statement ? that by any objective measure right now
>> ? AfriNIC has failed ? and while it has the ability to turn itself around ?
>> the path it is on right now ? celebrating the failures rather than staying
>> home and fixing the significant problems ? is no way to do that.  The path
>> it is on right now ? leads to annihilation.
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Ali Hussein [mailto:ali at hussein.me.ke <ali at hussein.me.ke>]
>> *Sent:* 20 June 2018 08:03
>> *To:* Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>; General
>> Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AFRINIC Board of
>> Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi all
>>
>>
>>
>> Been following these conversations for the last few days with interest
>> and dismay. We have become fractioned that we query and deem unnecessary
>> such important events. We probably need to go back to the core reason
>> Afrinic was created. let me recount our Vision and Mission:-
>>
>>
>>
>> V
>>
>> ?ISION
>>
>> ?
>>
>> "Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's sustainable
>> development"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ?MISSION
>>
>> ?
>>
>> "To serve the African Community by providing professional and efficient
>> management of Internet number technology usage and development, and
>> promoting Internet self-governance."
>>
>>
>>
>> *?**CORE VALUES**?*
>>
>>    - Community driven
>>    - Operational excellence
>>    - Passion
>>    - Innovation & Creativity
>>
>>
>>
>>    - *CRITICAL SUCCESS FACTORS*
>>
>>
>>    - ?
>>
>> People management (right people, competent, mindset, engaged, clear
>> objectives, committed, etc)
>>
>>    - Technical Infrastructure's reliability and resilience
>>    - Plans & Processes
>>    - Funding:
>>
>>
>>    - Financial Sustainability
>>       - Infrastructure and space
>>       - Budget discipline
>>
>>
>>    - Community Trust/Confidence
>>    - Continuous community engagement and support
>>    - Effective Operational Processes and Agile Organisational structure
>>
>>
>>
>> *?*Instead of being so pedantic and questioning every little thing the
>> organization is doing I say let's go back to these core issues above. And
>> let's ask ourselves:-
>>
>>
>>
>> Despite all the challenges we are currently facing what have we achieved?
>> And when answering this let's not just speak about the paying members.
>> Afrinic is much more than paying members! Afrinic is about the very
>> Internet Ecosystem in the co?ntinent. Let us be circumspect lest we kill
>> the baby with the bath water.
>>
>>
>>
>> ?Regards?
>>
>>
>>
>> *Ali Hussein*
>>
>> *Principal*
>>
>> *AHK & Associates*
>>
>>
>>
>> Tel: +254 713 601113
>>
>> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>>
>> Skype: abu-jomo
>>
>> LinkedIn:http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>>
>>
>>
>> 13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,
>>
>> Chiromo Road, Westlands,
>>
>> Nairobi, Kenya.
>>
>>
>> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely
>> mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the
>> organizations that I work with.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 1:50 AM, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Andrew,
>>
>> I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last
>> couple of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to
>> tell you to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to
>> another RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
>>
>> Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or
>> your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages
>> Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body.
>>
>> I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have
>> never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the
>> financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these
>> multiple questions.
>>
>> I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the
>> principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to
>> members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the
>> figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou
>> event?
>>
>> I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of
>> asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of
>> respect to the ICANN body.
>>
>> For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the
>> Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am
>> requesting  the Board to put you under discipline because of these
>> attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.
>>
>>
>>
>> Warm regards,
>>
>> Janvier NGNOULAYE
>>
>> Afrinic Member
>>
>> Former Afrinic Board member
>>
>> Yaounde - Cameroon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <
>> Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> a ?crit :
>>
>> Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking
>> that? Or attempt to deny it?
>>
>>
>>
>> Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that
>> group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it
>> where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group
>> that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own
>> purposes.
>>
>>
>>
>> ? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate
>> members of this list to members of that group ? but **shrug** who cares
>> ? its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ?
>> I stand by that one
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:*William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
>> *To: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
>> *Cc: *Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>, "
>> community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, AFRINIC
>> Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Community,
>>
>>
>>
>> I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC
>> Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told
>> that we have made progress .
>>
>>
>>
>> No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be
>> changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve
>> commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves
>> encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.
>>
>>
>>
>> I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa
>> join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Alan,
>>
>>
>>
>> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we
>> calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate
>> cost of attendance:
>>
>>
>>
>> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) -
>> $2049.50
>>
>> Sponsorship $3000
>>
>> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per
>> person (conservatively)
>>
>> 5 total people
>>
>>
>>
>> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
>>
>>
>>
>> I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
>> *Sent:* 19 June 2018 16:15
>> *To:* community-discuss at afrinic.net
>> *Cc:* AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.c
>> om> wrote:
>> >
>> > So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what
>> was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the
>> members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events
>> calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.
>>
>> AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was
>> invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and
>> will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and
>> the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Alan Barrett
>> CEO, AFRINIC
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
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From arsenebaguma at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 06:47:51 2018
From: arsenebaguma at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Ars=C3=A8ne_Tungali?=)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 08:47:51 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <F0E13704-5B1E-42DC-B0AE-1D5CEBFC7141@gmail.com>

Though i sometimes don?t agree with your methods, Andrew, but let me thank you for such an analysis of what?s going on at Afrinic.

I would urge the Board to consider each one of your analysis in one of their upcoming meetings and adress them. If this is all true, someone needs to fix it or challenge you with facts as you asked.

Many of us, though we don?t react to every single email, we take the time to read and learn. Through your numerous questionning, we are receiving clarity and answers to some of the hard questions that no one else is capable of asking yet i am sure they too enjoy the facts you present and some of the answers your questions receive.

I would encourage many of our community members to take interest in some of the facts that you are raising and join you in asking for accountability. Each one of us will chose their own methods but if we can achieve the same results, then that?s fine and for the benefit of this community.

I for once have decided not to focus on you as a person (and your way of presenting things), but on what you say as most of the times, you are raising some important issues that need attention. If we really love this organization, we should treat your concerns but not rejecting them in a block.

As for the Cotonou meeting, i am still trying to make my mind if i should also plan to attend as i will be in Cotonou on the 2nd of July for another meetint. I hope the meeting is open for anyone to attend.

Thanks,
Arsene

-----------------
Ars?ne Tungali,
about.me/ArseneTungali
+243 993810967
GPG: 523644A0
Goma, Democratic Republic of Congo

Sent from my iPhone (excuse typos)

> On Jun 20, 2018, at 8:25 AM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> 
> Ok Ali,
>  
> Let me attempt this ? and you and I, it?s rare that we disagree with each other, and you know that I have immense respect for you, but in this case, disagree with you I must.
>  
> Firstly ? the micro-management of AFRINIC becomes necessary when AFRINIC refuses point blank to follow its own rules of engagement as defined by the bylaws.  Secondly ? to turn a blind eye to the ?small? issues is to let the organisation end up back where it was in 2014, teetering on the brink of total financial collapse, with no reserve, making sustained losses that could have ended the company.
> Thirdly - Let us examine the core mission of AFRINIC and then let us score that:
>  
> "Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's sustainable development"
> That simply isn?t happening ? no R&D that is visible to the community or the members to speak of, a IRDB that myself, and others on this list, have consistently says has serious problems and needs rectification ? with no indication of how this is going to be ? potentially putting the continent at risk if RIPE proceeds with certain actions inside its own DB working group ? A situation where members that do ALL their business on this continent asking why, after a year of attempting to get legitimate space they have none, yet in February 2018 an allocation is made that, within 2 months is being offered sale ? and AFRINIC?s only response to the multitude of queries is ?we?re investigating?? with no time frames given.  The denial of an application by one particular major content player that wanted to come onto this continent with a request that they provide proof of over 2 million domains they handle? Oh, and a statement by yet another major content player that AFRINIC and the situation it is in is ?unsettling for business on the continent? ? no ? AFRINIC is not driving sustained development ? and if you believe otherwise ? please ? tell me how they are
>  
> Community driven as a core value
> This community asked for and was denied a vote of no confidence by the board, and using technicalities to do so.  This community has asked AFRINIC to explain the benefit members get out of the insane amount of travel (which btw, averages more than 6 trips per employee per year in 2017), and never had a proper answer.  This community has asked AFRINIC to explain how it plans to fix the *extremely* serious legal predicament it finds itself in, with the fact that it cannot get quorum to hold another AGMM and it cannot, by its own bylaws, elect directors to get that quorum ? and have been ignored.  So please ? tell me how we meet this objective
>  
> Operational excellence?  Really ? If you really need me to elaborate on this ? let me know ? I?ll happily paste the pages and pages of what members who are attempting to get space out of AFRINIC for very legitimate business needs are saying on lists all over the continent.
>  
> Passion?  Where is this passion ? What I see is that the members who are passionate about this organization and the good of the continent and ensuring that the organization is financially sustainable and well run by good corporate governance are told to shut up ? go away ? and not make waves ? and not to sweat the small things.  We are closer to asking for apathy than we are for passion
>  
> Innovation & Creativity ? please Ali ? tell me where this is ? what innovation has come from AFRINIC?  Where is this innovation ? because if it?s there ? I do not see it ? and if I?m wrong ? then I need to be shown the error I am making.
>  
> So ? by my count so far ? in my view ? we are failing ENTIRELY on the vision ? and 4 core values you listed.  Now let?s move on to the next points:
>  
> People management ? Please ? just go back and look at the last few months ? I need not say anything more on this point
> Plans & Processes? When I asked on this list if AFRINIC would adhere to the Mauritian code of corporate governance ? I was told that it was ?optional? for companies like AFRINIC (which is technically true).  When I have asked AFRINIC if they are willing to publish the minutes of the sub-board committees ? they have openly refused.  The strategic plan as it stands ? a strategic plan is a living document ? look at when that document that was sent was last revised or updated.  Let?s do a tangible analysis not just on the plans ? but on the delivery against those plans ? and see where we are ? I don?t think you?d like the results of such an analysis.
> Budget Discipline and associated items ? This is an interesting one ? except ? there is a problem ? if your revenue is increasing at 10.7% and you are budgeting for opex increases in categories in excess of 20% and are budgeting against projected growth figures ? you have an issue.  When you stand and tell the members ? we wish to raise the fees by an effective 5% - while already making surplus ? and while you are not explaining the benefit to those putting in money of how you are spending your money ? no budget in the world covers for this.  A budget must be adhered to ? but the members of a non-profit organization should also have some say in how that money is spent ? particularly when they start to question if the money is being spent serving the company?s primary objective.  Myself and others ? we are certainly questioning if that is the case.
> Community confidence / trust ? well ? again ? I don?t even need to comment on this ? the ballot box in Dakar spoke for itself
> Continuous community engagement and support?  This needs to happen ? I 100% agree with you ? however, it needs to be defined what it means ? it does not mean giving away money to organisations that have NO accountability and that refuse to be audited for 10 years as an example.  It does not mean making the community wait months for answers to questions which directly affect this organization.  It does mean sticking to the clauses as defined in article 3 of the bylaws ? something AFRINIC has singularly failed to do ? in particular in terms of clause 3.4.vii of the bylaws.  Part of continuous community engagement is defined so well in 3.4.vii ? that states that the board should disseminate among its members information on _ALL_ matters affecting the Company and its members.  And as many of my comments above this will show ? that ? has not happened and is not happening.
> Effective operational processes and an agile organizational structure ? Well, on this, I can only comment on what I see from outside ? and I would argue that if this existed ? the comments appearing on other lists around this continent about the constant struggle to get anything out of AFRINIC would not be there.  I would argue that if this existed ? the incidents that lead to a full blown investigation followed by a refusal to publish the actual report ? would not have come to fruition. 
>  
> In my book ? and for many many others that I speak to on a daily basis ? AfriNIC fails on every single one of the above points.
>  
> So yes ? I openly called AFRINIC an abject failure as it stands today ? and I did so publicly ? because ? by any objective evaluation of the above points ? we have failed in a core mission ? we have failed in our core values ? and we have failed on the critical success factors.  We have plowed millions into training across the continent ? and while I realize that objectively measuring the success of training is pretty difficult ? considering how much of that training has been focused on IPv6 deployment ? and considering the V6 deployment rates across the continent ? we have failed there as well.  (Please note ? I do not blame the trainers here, I would say it?s probably more the fault of those who do not apply that training, but the reality remains ? if you are pouring money into something with no tangible results, you are failing ? badly)
>  
> So Ali ? when you say do not focus on the small issues ? From 2005 when I actively started engaging with AFRINIC ? I have seen a consistent refusal to focus on the macro issues ? a consistent refusal to focus on the micro issues ? and a consistent attempt to hide behind technicalities and every other thing in the book to avoid accountability and responsibility.  So right now, EVERY issue is in focus ? and I believe that the only way any organization can truly thrive, is to  be willing to answer the questions and to take a long hard look at themselves, either through the questions their members ask or through external review ? and be willing to face the hard realities when they are going so terribly wrong.
>  
> Again ? I stand by my statement ? that by any objective measure right now ? AfriNIC has failed ? and while it has the ability to turn itself around ? the path it is on right now ? celebrating the failures rather than staying home and fixing the significant problems ? is no way to do that.  The path it is on right now ? leads to annihilation.
>  
> Andrew
>  
>  
>  
> From: Ali Hussein [mailto:ali at hussein.me.ke] 
> Sent: 20 June 2018 08:03
> To: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
> Cc: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>; General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>  
> Hi all
>  
> Been following these conversations for the last few days with interest and dismay. We have become fractioned that we query and deem unnecessary such important events. We probably need to go back to the core reason Afrinic was created. let me recount our Vision and Mission:-
>  
> V
> ?ISION
> ?
> "Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's sustainable development"
>  
>  
> ?MISSION
> ?
> "To serve the African Community by providing professional and efficient management of Internet number technology usage and development, and promoting Internet self-governance."
>  
> ?CORE VALUES?
> Community driven
> Operational excellence
> Passion
> Innovation & Creativity
>  
> CRITICAL SUCCESS FACTORS
> ?
> People management (right people, competent, mindset, engaged, clear objectives, committed, etc)
> Technical Infrastructure's reliability and resilience
> Plans & Processes
> Funding: 
> Financial Sustainability
> Infrastructure and space
> Budget discipline
> Community Trust/Confidence
> Continuous community engagement and support
> Effective Operational Processes and Agile Organisational structure
>  
> ?Instead of being so pedantic and questioning every little thing the organization is doing I say let's go back to these core issues above. And let's ask ourselves:-
>  
> Despite all the challenges we are currently facing what have we achieved? And when answering this let's not just speak about the paying members. Afrinic is much more than paying members! Afrinic is about the very Internet Ecosystem in the co?ntinent. Let us be circumspect lest we kill the baby with the bath water.
>  
> ?Regards?
>  
> Ali Hussein
> Principal
> AHK & Associates
>  
> Tel: +254 713 601113
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
> Skype: abu-jomo
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>  
> 13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,
> Chiromo Road, Westlands,
> Nairobi, Kenya.
> 
> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with.
>  
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 1:50 AM, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Andrew,
> I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last couple of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to tell you to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to another RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
> Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body. 
> I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the  financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these multiple questions.
> I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou event? 
> I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of respect to the ICANN body.
> For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am requesting  the Board to put you under discipline because of these attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.
>  
> Warm regards,
> Janvier NGNOULAYE
> Afrinic Member
> Former Afrinic Board member 
> Yaounde - Cameroon
>  
>  
> Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> a ?crit :
> Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking that? Or attempt to deny it?
>  
> Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.
>  
> I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own purposes.
>  
> ? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate members of this list to members of that group ? but *shrug* who cares ? its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ? I stand by that one
>  
> Andrew
>  
> From: William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com>
> Date: Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
> To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> Cc: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>, "community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>  
> Dear Community,
>  
> I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you. 
>  
> Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that we have made progress .
>  
> No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.
>  
> I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.
>  
> Thank you.
>  
> On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> Alan,
>  
> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:
>  
> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
> Sponsorship $3000
> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
> 5 total people
>  
> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
>  
> I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here
>  
> Andrew
>  
> From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net] 
> Sent: 19 June 2018 16:15
> To: community-discuss at afrinic.net
> Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>  
>  
> 
> > On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> > 
> > So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.
> 
> AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Alan Barrett
> CEO, AFRINIC
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> 
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
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From sm+afrinic at elandsys.com  Thu Jun 21 10:11:36 2018
From: sm+afrinic at elandsys.com (S Moonesamy)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 03:11:36 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.e
 urprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>

Hi Andrew,
At 11:25 PM 19-06-2018, Andrew Alston wrote:
>Operational excellence?  Really ? If you really 
>need me to elaboratte on this ? let me know ? 
>I'll happily paste the pa pages and pages of 
>what members who are attempting to get space out 
>of AFRINIC for very legitimate business needs 
>are saying on lists all over the continent.

Is there any issue with the service level [1]?

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. https://www.afrinic.net/en/services/afrinic-slc 




From saul at enetworks.co.za  Thu Jun 21 10:44:21 2018
From: saul at enetworks.co.za (Saul Stein)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 12:44:21 +0200 (SAST)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
Message-ID: <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>

>Is there any issue with the service level [1]?

Every ISP that I have spoken to complains about the service levels to the
point that one or two actually got space from RIPE.



From dabu.sifiso at yandex.com  Thu Jun 21 11:09:09 2018
From: dabu.sifiso at yandex.com (Dabu Sifiso)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 06:09:09 -0500
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN0q0kE9S9ZJ4t2JHxqCV2wZeLx+VPsi7MdMkabXR18DtQqTxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <559ADD49-D014-420B-A438-C2DAD3858B95@hussein.me.ke>
 <661256cb-865e-b0fb-7cdb-c4cac68897ad@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3338481529579349@web11o.yandex.ru>


Mr Elitcha,


20.06.2018, 12:28, "Komi Elitcha" <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com>:
> Ali,
>
> I am also for the right of every participant in this community not to be muzzled but not to the detriment of the organisation.
>
> We already have a code of conduct for rpd, community and members list[1] that resolves the issue of a distracting participant.? No reason why the rulebook cannot be thrown at a member who drags the reputation of the organisation in the mud in the name of defending its ideals.
You literally asked for the board to create special rules just so they could be specifically broken by one person broken and then close a membership of a specific LIR by direct action of the board.

Although such rules could only be applied to the closed mailing-list for members, the public mailing list can be accessed by anyone without any membership or resources affiliation.

> I would also be interested in answers to Janvier's question as the member in question happens to be Liquid Telecom.


Do you mean the part asking him to move to another RIR?
I guess the board would need to pass a special resolution allowing liquid telecom and why not any other AFRINIC resource member to be freed from having to use AFRINIC and allowed moved to another RIR with their current  resources.

It would indeed probably be a good solution and avoid closing the memberships of unhappy members, just pass on those members to some other RIR outside Africa.


> [1] https://www.afrinic.net/community/code-of-conduct
>
> Le 20/06/2018 ? 15:38, Ali Hussein a ?crit?:
>> Komi
>>
>> All I can say is this:
>>
>> I may not like what Andrew says but I will defend to the death his right to say it ~ Paraphrased from a quote by the French philosopher, Voltaire.
>>
>> These sort of threats only work in a police state and have no place in a community based organization like Afrinic.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Ali Hussein
>> Principal
>> AHK & Associates
>> +254 0713 601113
>>
>> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>>
>> Skype: abu-jomo
>>
>> LinkedIn:?http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ?~?Aristotle
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 20 Jun 2018, at 4:33 PM, Komi Elitcha <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello AFRINIC BoD,
>>
>> Based on what has been going on for a while over the years, with liquid telecom an afrinic ressources member engaging in many actions which affect afrinic reputation and also expose the organization to legal risks, I want to encourage The board to propose a code of conduct for afrinic members.
>>
>> Failure to comply to this code of conduct by liquid telecom or any other? members, board shall invoke section 8.2(iii) of the bylaws and terminate their membership
>>
>> 8.2 The membership of a Resource Member shall terminate upon:
>> (iii) the Board, acting reasonably and in good faith, determining that the Resource Member has refused or failed to comply with the provisions of this Constitution or any applicable rule made by the Board;
>
> Le mar. 19 juin 2018 22:52, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com> a ?crit?:
>> Dear Andrew,
>> I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last couple of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to tell you to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to another RIR.? Afrinic will not died.
>> Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body.
>> I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the? financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these multiple questions.
>> I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou event?
>> I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of respect to the ICANN body.
>> For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:? I am requesting? the Board to put you under discipline because of these attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.
>>
>> Warm regards,
>> Janvier NGNOULAYE
>> Afrinic Member
>> Former Afrinic Board member
>> Yaounde - Cameroon

Le?mar. 19 juin 2018 ??22:09, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> a ?crit?:
> Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking that? Or attempt to deny it?
>
> Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.
>
> I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own purposes.
>
> ? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate members of this list to members of that group ? but *shrug* who cares ? its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ? I stand by that one
>
> Andrew
>
> From: William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com>
> Date: Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
> To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> Cc: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>, "community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
> Dear Community,
>
> I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.
>
> Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that we have made progress .
>
> No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.
>
> I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.
>
> Thank you.
>
> On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>> Alan,
>>
>> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:
>>
>> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
>>
>> Sponsorship $3000
>>
>> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
>>
>> 5 total people
>>
>> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
>>
>> I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
>> Sent: 19 June 2018 16:15
>> To: community-discuss at afrinic.net
>> Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>>
>>> On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.
>>
>> AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Alan Barrett
>> CEO, AFRINIC
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss


-- -- KE
,

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss




From graham at enetworks.co.za  Thu Jun 21 11:12:18 2018
From: graham at enetworks.co.za (Graham Beneke)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 13:12:18 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
Message-ID: <ab835376-494a-5e06-18cf-196e246cecc1@enetworks.co.za>

On 2018/06/21 12:44 PM, Saul Stein wrote:
>> Is there any issue with the service level [1]?
> Every ISP that I have spoken to complains about the service levels to the
> point that one or two actually got space from RIPE.

And if you're looking for a specific data point...

We recently requested a single /24 of space for anycast under the
anycast policy.
??? * 7 days before the first response from a human
??? * 8 more days to issue an invoice (of $2500!?!? - for what for what
could not have been more than 30 minutes of evaluation work for the IP
analysts)

-- 
Graham Beneke



From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Thu Jun 21 11:12:44 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 11:12:44 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <3338481529579349@web11o.yandex.ru>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN0q0kE9S9ZJ4t2JHxqCV2wZeLx+VPsi7MdMkabXR18DtQqTxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <559ADD49-D014-420B-A438-C2DAD3858B95@hussein.me.ke>
 <661256cb-865e-b0fb-7cdb-c4cac68897ad@gmail.com>
 <3338481529579349@web11o.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB257045D44205381E26D78A29EE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Hey,

If we can have a transfer policy that is bi-directional ? a lot of these issues would go away.  The community in the past has refused to pass such ? for varying reasons ? maybe it?s time to rethink this?

Andrew


From: Dabu Sifiso [mailto:dabu.sifiso at yandex.com]
Sent: 21 June 2018 14:09
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; board at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting


Mr Elitcha,


20.06.2018, 12:28, "Komi Elitcha" <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com<mailto:kmw.elitcha at gmail.com>>:
> Ali,
>
> I am also for the right of every participant in this community not to be muzzled but not to the detriment of the organisation.
>
> We already have a code of conduct for rpd, community and members list[1] that resolves the issue of a distracting participant.  No reason why the rulebook cannot be thrown at a member who drags the reputation of the organisation in the mud in the name of defending its ideals.
You literally asked for the board to create special rules just so they could be specifically broken by one person broken and then close a membership of a specific LIR by direct action of the board.

Although such rules could only be applied to the closed mailing-list for members, the public mailing list can be accessed by anyone without any membership or resources affiliation.

> I would also be interested in answers to Janvier's question as the member in question happens to be Liquid Telecom.


Do you mean the part asking him to move to another RIR?
I guess the board would need to pass a special resolution allowing liquid telecom and why not any other AFRINIC resource member to be freed from having to use AFRINIC and allowed moved to another RIR with their current resources.

It would indeed probably be a good solution and avoid closing the memberships of unhappy members, just pass on those members to some other RIR outside Africa.


> [1] https://www.afrinic.net/community/code-of-conduct<https://www.afrinic.net/community/code-of-conduct>
>
> Le 20/06/2018 ? 15:38, Ali Hussein a ?crit :
>> Komi
>>
>> All I can say is this:
>>
>> I may not like what Andrew says but I will defend to the death his right to say it ~ Paraphrased from a quote by the French philosopher, Voltaire.
>>
>> These sort of threats only work in a police state and have no place in a community based organization like Afrinic.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Ali Hussein
>> Principal
>> AHK & Associates
>> +254 0713 601113
>>
>> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>>
>> Skype: abu-jomo
>>
>> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim<http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>
>> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit."  ~ Aristotle
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 20 Jun 2018, at 4:33 PM, Komi Elitcha <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com<mailto:kmw.elitcha at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Hello AFRINIC BoD,
>>
>> Based on what has been going on for a while over the years, with liquid telecom an afrinic ressources member engaging in many actions which affect afrinic reputation and also expose the organization to legal risks, I want to encourage The board to propose a code of conduct for afrinic members.
>>
>> Failure to comply to this code of conduct by liquid telecom or any other  members, board shall invoke section 8.2(iii) of the bylaws and terminate their membership
>>
>> 8.2 The membership of a Resource Member shall terminate upon:
>> (iii) the Board, acting reasonably and in good faith, determining that the Resource Member has refused or failed to comply with the provisions of this Constitution or any applicable rule made by the Board;
>
> Le mar. 19 juin 2018 22:52, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com<mailto:jnoulaye at gmail.com>> a ?crit :
>> Dear Andrew,
>> I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last couple of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to tell you to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to another RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
>> Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body.
>> I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the  financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these multiple questions.
>> I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou event?
>> I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of respect to the ICANN body.
>> For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am requesting  the Board to put you under discipline because of these attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.
>>
>> Warm regards,
>> Janvier NGNOULAYE
>> Afrinic Member
>> Former Afrinic Board member
>> Yaounde - Cameroon

Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> a ?crit :
> Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking that? Or attempt to deny it?
>
> Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.
>
> I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own purposes.
>
> ? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate members of this list to members of that group ? but *shrug* who cares ? its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ? I stand by that one
>
> Andrew
>
> From: William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com<mailto:wametozion at gmail.com>>
> Date: Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
> To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>
> Cc: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net<mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>>, "community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>" <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>, AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
> Dear Community,
>
> I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.
>
> Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that we have made progress .
>
> No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.
>
> I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.
>
> Thank you.
>
> On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>> Alan,
>>
>> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:
>>
>> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
>>
>> Sponsorship $3000
>>
>> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
>>
>> 5 total people
>>
>> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
>>
>> I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
>> Sent: 19 June 2018 16:15
>> To: community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
>> Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
>> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>>
>>> On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.
>>
>> AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Alan Barrett
>> CEO, AFRINIC
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>


-- -- KE
,

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>


_______________________________________________
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Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
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From sm+afrinic at elandsys.com  Thu Jun 21 12:21:25 2018
From: sm+afrinic at elandsys.com (S Moonesamy)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 05:21:25 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>

Hi Saul,
At 03:44 AM 21-06-2018, Saul Stein wrote:
>Every ISP that I have spoken to complains about the service levels to the
>point that one or two actually got space from RIPE.

Can you please get me the ticket numbers, the dates of the complaints 
and the dates the complaints were resolved (if applicable)?

Regards,
S. Moonesamy 




From saul at enetworks.co.za  Thu Jun 21 13:17:42 2018
From: saul at enetworks.co.za (Saul Stein)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 15:17:42 +0200 (SAST)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
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 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
Message-ID: <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>

Dear SM, 
This should all be in your ticketing system. Any respectable ticketing
system should be able to report on calls that have taken longer than 3
days to resolve.
I could ask the South African ISPs to produce this list, however, and this
is becoming the issue, what's the point? We, as a membership base have
been complaining about this on the lists for some time and at the AGMMs.

People don't have the time to document every little thing that happens -
it takes time away from them doing what they need to do to make the
companies they work for functional.
As mentioned, some gave up and went to RIPE - they won't have kept their
ticket numbers...

Saul


-----Original Message-----
From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+afrinic at elandsys.com] 
Sent: 21 June 2018 02:21 PM
To: Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za>; community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: RE: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

Hi Saul,
At 03:44 AM 21-06-2018, Saul Stein wrote:
>Every ISP that I have spoken to complains about the service levels to 
>the point that one or two actually got space from RIPE.

Can you please get me the ticket numbers, the dates of the complaints and
the dates the complaints were resolved (if applicable)?

Regards,
S. Moonesamy 




From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Thu Jun 21 13:50:52 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 13:50:52 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

I have to second this -

In the past I have raised tickets - and no - I'm in the mood to go digging back through mountains of emails to find them - the ticket system should be able to find them - and had no responses for ages.

I also point out that there was an explicit problem reported to the board and the ceo about an investigation - that was made by the South African ISP contingent on the NAP list - a response was forthcoming to say "it was being investigated"

Time frames have been requested - nothing has come back - no time frames - no answers.

This is a repetitive - constant issue - that I have seen raised time and again year after year.  And I have to question what is going on here - lets look at it realistically - AfriNIC employs 9 people in Member Services (still confuses me btw why the IT and engineering team is larger than the team that is meant to handle AfriNIC's core business, because that currently sits at 10).

I went and checked ipv4 allocation requests as per the delegation file going back to the beginning of the year... its now the 21st of June as I write that - there have been 117 work days in Mauritius since the 1st of January.  Between 9 staff - that equates to 1053 Man days - at 8 hours a day that's 8424 man hours - there have been 111 allocations made.

That means - your average turn around time in man hours to do one allocation is running to 75 hours per allocation - or 9 days.  AfriNIC has consistently stated that small allocations are generally very fast - and can be turned around in a day or two - 25 of these allocations were /24s - so lets say we allocate a full 16 hours to each of these allocations - that would take 400 man hours - your average for the rest of them - is now sitting at 93 man hours per allocation - considering your average work week is 40 hours - we're talking about over 2 weeks per every allocation.

Come on people - no one can claim this is acceptable

Andrew



From: Saul Stein [mailto:saul at enetworks.co.za]
Sent: 21 June 2018 16:18
To: S Moonesamy <sm+afrinic at elandsys.com>; community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

Dear SM,
This should all be in your ticketing system. Any respectable ticketing
system should be able to report on calls that have taken longer than 3
days to resolve.
I could ask the South African ISPs to produce this list, however, and this
is becoming the issue, what's the point? We, as a membership base have
been complaining about this on the lists for some time and at the AGMMs.

People don't have the time to document every little thing that happens -
it takes time away from them doing what they need to do to make the
companies they work for functional.
As mentioned, some gave up and went to RIPE - they won't have kept their
ticket numbers...

Saul


-----Original Message-----
From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+afrinic at elandsys.com]
Sent: 21 June 2018 02:21 PM
To: Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za<mailto:saul at enetworks.co.za>>; community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: RE: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

Hi Saul,
At 03:44 AM 21-06-2018, Saul Stein wrote:
>Every ISP that I have spoken to complains about the service levels to
>the point that one or two actually got space from RIPE.

Can you please get me the ticket numbers, the dates of the complaints and
the dates the complaints were resolved (if applicable)?

Regards,
S. Moonesamy


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
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From sm+afrinic at elandsys.com  Thu Jun 21 15:43:31 2018
From: sm+afrinic at elandsys.com (S Moonesamy)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 08:43:31 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20180621075432.0b87cc78@elandnews.com>

Hi Saul,
At 06:17 AM 21-06-2018, Saul Stein wrote:
>This should all be in your ticketing system. Any respectable ticketing
>system should be able to report on calls that have taken longer than 3
>days to resolve.
>I could ask the South African ISPs to produce this list, however, and this
>is becoming the issue, what's the point? We, as a membership base have
>been complaining about this on the lists for some time and at the AGMMs.

The statistics [1] which I have access to does not show the number of 
tickets which took longer than three days to resolve.  I need some 
information to be able to make an internal request.  I am not asking 
for an exhaustive list.  As an example, Mr Beneke provided a data 
point [2].  The information is useful to me.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. https://www.afrinic.net/en/services/statistics/rt-stats
2. https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2018-June/002460.html 




From wametozion at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 17:31:53 2018
From: wametozion at gmail.com (William Ametozion)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 17:31:53 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
Message-ID: <CAP6btyCJzTHYnsmdFwb4N8i3nqY4Fdcv40JaLDQhwU60kzZjwg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Saul,

> As mentioned, some gave up and went to RIPE - they won't have kept their
ticket numbers...

Since there is a precedence that some South African ISPs are going to RIPE,
why not encourage your friend Andrew Alston to follow their example and
join RIPE and stop being disruptive in AfriNIC Community?

William A.
On Jun 21, 2018 13:19, "Saul Stein" <saul at enetworks.co.za> wrote:

> Dear SM,
> This should all be in your ticketing system. Any respectable ticketing
> system should be able to report on calls that have taken longer than 3
> days to resolve.
> I could ask the South African ISPs to produce this list, however, and this
> is becoming the issue, what's the point? We, as a membership base have
> been complaining about this on the lists for some time and at the AGMMs.
>
> People don't have the time to document every little thing that happens -
> it takes time away from them doing what they need to do to make the
> companies they work for functional.
> As mentioned, some gave up and went to RIPE - they won't have kept their
> ticket numbers...
>
> Saul
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+afrinic at elandsys.com]
> Sent: 21 June 2018 02:21 PM
> To: Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za>; community-discuss at afrinic.net
> Subject: RE: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
>
> Hi Saul,
> At 03:44 AM 21-06-2018, Saul Stein wrote:
> >Every ISP that I have spoken to complains about the service levels to
> >the point that one or two actually got space from RIPE.
>
> Can you please get me the ticket numbers, the dates of the complaints and
> the dates the complaints were resolved (if applicable)?
>
> Regards,
> S. Moonesamy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Thu Jun 21 18:18:10 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 18:18:10 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB25702138CA71C48D51A90C4BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <3C9E1AF8-8D9F-4C97-9145-81D665505CF8@hussein.me.ke>
 <HE1PR0301MB257077867EB8FE29AEEA07CBEE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180620122102.10ab7e20@elandnews.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB25702138CA71C48D51A90C4BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <BC9E42B7-88B9-445A-919C-129F31CD93D8@liquidtelecom.com>

Since we decided to talk budgets and finance ? I was kinda bored and decided to run some numbers ? if AFRINIC was a pure IP registry ? what would it cost its members as compared to at the moment.  These numbers are purely theoretical ? except where I calculate in actual staff costs at current, number of work days in a year etc ? those are all based straight out of the AFS.

So ? I took the CEO?s salary ? as per the 2017 AFS ? and took the HR cost ? and calculated the average cost per staff member at AFRINIC with the exclusion of the CEO.
Then ? I calculated down to an hourly rate per staff member on average ? based on a 250 work day year (which is what Mauritius was in 2017) ? at 8 hours a day.

This came out like this:

HR Costs

CEO Cost

$161,000.00

Staff Cost

$2,093,317.00

Average Cost Per Staff Member

$41,113.13

Work Days for 2017 (MU)

250

Hours Per Day per Staff Member

8

Cost Per Hour Per Staff Member

$20.56


Then ? I said ok ? based on my previous calculations ? lets work on an average of 75 hours work per application (current average number of hours per application as of latest delegation file, including really small applications) and calculate a pure cost recovery per application ? this looked like this:

Money Generated from Applications (Cost Recovery)

Average Hours Per Application

75

Cost Per Application

$1,541.74

Total Applications

250

Money Generated from Applications

$385,435.57


Then I said ? let?s revise things a bit for a hypothetical.

We?d drop to a staff count of 20 + the CEO ? at the same average rate ? that retains the 9 current hostmasters + 11 additional support staff (and I think that was being pretty generous).
Allocate $50k a year for travel ? because if we being a pure registry ? that?s pretty much all it would cost ? anything else can be done online in this hypothetical.
The office costs are down because you have a much smaller staff compliment ? so we?ll cut that to $150k
We?ll allocate $300k for miscellaneous expenses ? and then we?ll add $200k a year to generate surplus for the organisation.
We?re already cost recovering from applications ? so we?ll deduct that from all of this and this is what it looks like:

Revised to do purely allocations

20 Staff

$822,262.55

Office Space

$150,000.00

Travel Costs

$150,000.00

Ceo's Salary

$161,000.00

Miscellaneous Costs

$300,000.00

Surplus Generation

$200,000.00

Application Fees

-$385,435.57

TOTAL

$1,397,826.98


Then ? we say we have 1550 members (its actually slightly more than that) and what do we find?

Cost Per Member (Recurring)

$901.82


Now ? considering that the cheapest LIR pays $1400 a year ? and the allocation fees at minimum of $1750 per application at the moment ? well? food for thought about how much we, as members, want to really be paying for over and above what the registry should be doing as its core business?

Andrew

From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Date: Thursday, 21 June 2018 at 08:02
To: S Moonesamy <sm+afrinic at elandsys.com>, "community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

SM - use the AFS not the budgets please

Andrew

Liquid Telecommunications - Group Head Of IP Strategy
________________________________
From: S Moonesamy <sm+afrinic at elandsys.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 10:39:17 PM
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

Hello,

I read a comment about travels costs since 2014. The budgeted item
[1] was as follows:

Year
2014 $410,000
2015 $390,000
2016 $525,400
2017 $525,000
2018 $490,000

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. Amounts are in USD.


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
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From noah at neo.co.tz  Thu Jun 21 19:21:29 2018
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 22:21:29 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB257045D44205381E26D78A29EE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN0q0kE9S9ZJ4t2JHxqCV2wZeLx+VPsi7MdMkabXR18DtQqTxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <559ADD49-D014-420B-A438-C2DAD3858B95@hussein.me.ke>
 <661256cb-865e-b0fb-7cdb-c4cac68897ad@gmail.com>
 <3338481529579349@web11o.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB257045D44205381E26D78A29EE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqgTWZ3sUZZ+Y6O26EnzHMPtHYpb2b+pqmeNd4Sm1OxxnpfBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 2:15 pm Andrew Alston, <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
wrote:

> Hey,
>
>
>
> If we can have a transfer policy that is bi-directional ? a lot of these
> issues would go away.  The community in the past has refused to pass such ?
> for varying reasons ? maybe it?s time to rethink this?
>
Andrew

On this one, the community will not raise the conflict of interest
questions  ;(

However, I if may...Which specific issues do you in particular have in mind
and how would such a transfer policy make those issues magically go away?

Noah
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From wametozion at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 19:40:06 2018
From: wametozion at gmail.com (William Ametozion)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 19:40:06 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAP6btyDYJb4sxXsEAxfAXvMFxGRKXWzGTVdpr1GYh-Y+5B04rQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
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 <CAP6btyDYJb4sxXsEAxfAXvMFxGRKXWzGTVdpr1GYh-Y+5B04rQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP6btyCtXNSFFLZfKcsr6n_Nak91co5Fft4DavWPrC_5TJ3Erw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Andrew,

Just a reminder. Yesterday, Janvier asked you the following question:

?Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or
your company??

You have not answered it yet and I am sure it is an oversight. Could you
please provide us with the answer? It is a simple and straight forward
question and it should not take you so long to provide the answer.

Thanks

William A.
On Jun 19, 2018 22:51, "Janvier NGNOULAYE" <jnoulaye at gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Andrew,
I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last couple
of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to tell you
to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to another
RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or
your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages
Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body.
I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have
never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the
financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these
multiple questions.
I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the
principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to
members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the
figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou
event?
I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of
asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of
respect to the ICANN body.
For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the Afrinic
members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am requesting  the
Board to put you under discipline because of these attitudes that tarnish
the image of Afrinic and its members.

Warm regards,
Janvier NGNOULAYE
Afrinic Member
Former Afrinic Board member
Yaounde - Cameroon


Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
a ?crit :

> Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking
> that? Or attempt to deny it?
>
>
>
> Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that
> group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it
> where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.
>
>
>
> I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group
> that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own
> purposes.
>
>
>
> ? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate
> members of this list to members of that group ? but **shrug** who cares ?
> its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ? I
> stand by that one
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> *From: *William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
> *To: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> *Cc: *Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>, "
> community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, AFRINIC
> Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> *Subject: *Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
>
>
> Dear Community,
>
>
>
> I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC
> Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.
>
>
>
> Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that
> we have made progress .
>
>
>
> No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be
> changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve
> commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves
> encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.
>
>
>
> I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa
> join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> wrote:
>
> Alan,
>
>
>
> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate
> as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of
> attendance:
>
>
>
> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) -
> $2049.50
>
> Sponsorship $3000
>
> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per
> person (conservatively)
>
> 5 total people
>
>
>
> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
>
>
>
> I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> *From:* Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
> *Sent:* 19 June 2018 16:15
> *To:* community-discuss at afrinic.net
> *Cc:* AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was
> sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the
> members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events
> calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.
>
> AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was
> invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and
> will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and
> the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.
>
> Regards,
>
> Alan Barrett
> CEO, AFRINIC
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Thu Jun 21 20:27:05 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 20:27:05 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAEqgTWZ3sUZZ+Y6O26EnzHMPtHYpb2b+pqmeNd4Sm1OxxnpfBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN0q0kE9S9ZJ4t2JHxqCV2wZeLx+VPsi7MdMkabXR18DtQqTxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <559ADD49-D014-420B-A438-C2DAD3858B95@hussein.me.ke>
 <661256cb-865e-b0fb-7cdb-c4cac68897ad@gmail.com>
 <3338481529579349@web11o.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB257045D44205381E26D78A29EE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
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Message-ID: <85988651-E54E-449C-9F3C-AA421265BF0D@liquidtelecom.com>

Noah,

Well ? there seem to be individuals here who wish to imply that those that question this organisation and wish to hold it to account are the problem ? read between the lines

Andrew


From: Noah <noah at neo.co.tz>
Date: Thursday, 21 June 2018 at 22:21
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: Dabu Sifiso <dabu.sifiso at yandex.com>, General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, "board at afrinic.net" <board at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting


On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 2:15 pm Andrew Alston, <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Hey,

If we can have a transfer policy that is bi-directional ? a lot of these issues would go away.  The community in the past has refused to pass such ? for varying reasons ? maybe it?s time to rethink this?
Andrew

On this one, the community will not raise the conflict of interest questions  ;(

However, I if may...Which specific issues do you in particular have in mind and how would such a transfer policy make those issues magically go away?

Noah
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From noah at neo.co.tz  Thu Jun 21 20:36:49 2018
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 23:36:49 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <85988651-E54E-449C-9F3C-AA421265BF0D@liquidtelecom.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
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 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN0q0kE9S9ZJ4t2JHxqCV2wZeLx+VPsi7MdMkabXR18DtQqTxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <559ADD49-D014-420B-A438-C2DAD3858B95@hussein.me.ke>
 <661256cb-865e-b0fb-7cdb-c4cac68897ad@gmail.com>
 <3338481529579349@web11o.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB257045D44205381E26D78A29EE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWZ3sUZZ+Y6O26EnzHMPtHYpb2b+pqmeNd4Sm1OxxnpfBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <85988651-E54E-449C-9F3C-AA421265BF0D@liquidtelecom.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqgTWaZc0Nn9LCpDtcSuwpsg68cTw6ko0n_ntik5rBmdKfaZg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 11:27 pm Andrew Alston, <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
wrote:

> Noah,
>
>
>
> Well ? there seem to be individuals here who wish to imply that those that
> question this organisation and wish to hold it to account are the problem ?
> read between the lines
>
Andrew

OK but still am just curious how a bi-directional policy that you want
would actually magically solve all the issues faced by AfriNIC.

Its this thought pattern of yours as per your previous email that attracted
my curiosity and hence the question.

Would you care to elaborate how the bi-directional policy would fix things?

Noah

>
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Thu Jun 21 20:38:18 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 20:38:18 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAP6btyCtXNSFFLZfKcsr6n_Nak91co5Fft4DavWPrC_5TJ3Erw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
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 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP6btyDYJb4sxXsEAxfAXvMFxGRKXWzGTVdpr1GYh-Y+5B04rQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP6btyCtXNSFFLZfKcsr6n_Nak91co5Fft4DavWPrC_5TJ3Erw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5C38AF5C-C1CD-4AA2-8B95-5DC3703EE7D4@liquidtelecom.com>

William,

My only comment on this is as follows ? when someone posts on the members list ? they are posting as a member ? if they represent multiple members ? it could be any of those members.  When someone posts on the community list ? they have the choice in each post to represent themselves or a corporate entity ? or multiple corporate entities ? and that can differ from time to time ? day to day ? post to post.

If I state that I am writing on behalf of a particular entity ? then I am writing on behalf of that entity ? and I assure you that I do not do that without being duly authorised.  If I state that I am writing on behalf of myself and expressing my own opinions ? then it is as stated.  If I do not state either ? you are free to ask on a post by post basis or assume that I am writing on my own behalf (or make any other assumptions you wish to make)

That is my final word on this subject ? unless the rules change to explicitly state that everyone posts their associations and who they are representing.

Thanks

Andrew

From: William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, 21 June 2018 at 22:40
To: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>, "community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting


Hi Andrew,

Just a reminder. Yesterday, Janvier asked you the following question:

?Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or your company??

You have not answered it yet and I am sure it is an oversight. Could you please provide us with the answer? It is a simple and straight forward question and it should not take you so long to provide the answer.

Thanks

William A.
On Jun 19, 2018 22:51, "Janvier NGNOULAYE" <jnoulaye at gmail.com<mailto:jnoulaye at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Andrew,
I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last couple of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to tell you to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to another RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body.
I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the  financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these multiple questions.
I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou event?
I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of respect to the ICANN body.
For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am requesting  the Board to put you under discipline because of these attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.

Warm regards,
Janvier NGNOULAYE
Afrinic Member
Former Afrinic Board member
Yaounde - Cameroon


Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> a ?crit :
Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking that? Or attempt to deny it?

Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.

I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own purposes.

? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate members of this list to members of that group ? but *shrug* who cares ? its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ? I stand by that one

Andrew

From: William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com<mailto:wametozion at gmail.com>>
Date: Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>
Cc: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net<mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>>, "community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>" <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>, AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

Dear Community,

I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.

Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that we have made progress .

No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.

I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.

Thank you.

On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Alan,

Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of attendance:

Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) - $2049.50
Sponsorship $3000
Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per person (conservatively)
5 total people

Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?

I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here

Andrew

From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net<mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>]
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:15
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Cc: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net<mailto:board at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting



> On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
> So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.

AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.

Regards,

Alan Barrett
CEO, AFRINIC


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Thu Jun 21 20:39:44 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 20:39:44 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAEqgTWaZc0Nn9LCpDtcSuwpsg68cTw6ko0n_ntik5rBmdKfaZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN0q0kE9S9ZJ4t2JHxqCV2wZeLx+VPsi7MdMkabXR18DtQqTxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <559ADD49-D014-420B-A438-C2DAD3858B95@hussein.me.ke>
 <661256cb-865e-b0fb-7cdb-c4cac68897ad@gmail.com>
 <3338481529579349@web11o.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB257045D44205381E26D78A29EE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWZ3sUZZ+Y6O26EnzHMPtHYpb2b+pqmeNd4Sm1OxxnpfBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <85988651-E54E-449C-9F3C-AA421265BF0D@liquidtelecom.com>
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Message-ID: <23904EBE-AA4D-437F-91C5-EFDB500DD3BA@liquidtelecom.com>

Noah simple,

I think a lot of the members who spend a lot of time questioning AFRINIC and have lost faith and who are tired of paying inflated fees for little benefit ? would probably transfer out ? which would leave less people asking difficult questions that it is patently obvious people don?t want asked and the board patently obviously does not wish to answer

Andrew


From: Noah <noah at neo.co.tz>
Date: Thursday, 21 June 2018 at 23:37
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: Dabu Sifiso <dabu.sifiso at yandex.com>, General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, "board at afrinic.net" <board at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting

On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 11:27 pm Andrew Alston, <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Noah,

Well ? there seem to be individuals here who wish to imply that those that question this organisation and wish to hold it to account are the problem ? read between the lines
Andrew

OK but still am just curious how a bi-directional policy that you want would actually magically solve all the issues faced by AfriNIC.

Its this thought pattern of yours as per your previous email that attracted my curiosity and hence the question.

Would you care to elaborate how the bi-directional policy would fix things?

Noah
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From noah at neo.co.tz  Thu Jun 21 20:57:11 2018
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 23:57:11 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <23904EBE-AA4D-437F-91C5-EFDB500DD3BA@liquidtelecom.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
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 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN0q0kE9S9ZJ4t2JHxqCV2wZeLx+VPsi7MdMkabXR18DtQqTxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <559ADD49-D014-420B-A438-C2DAD3858B95@hussein.me.ke>
 <661256cb-865e-b0fb-7cdb-c4cac68897ad@gmail.com>
 <3338481529579349@web11o.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB257045D44205381E26D78A29EE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWZ3sUZZ+Y6O26EnzHMPtHYpb2b+pqmeNd4Sm1OxxnpfBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <85988651-E54E-449C-9F3C-AA421265BF0D@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAEqgTWaZc0Nn9LCpDtcSuwpsg68cTw6ko0n_ntik5rBmdKfaZg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAEqgTWY2KgYTAp5gLrZ4UcS+i_gxqxpj1bf-k0=9oDJEBw-Avw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 11:39 pm Andrew Alston, <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
wrote:

> Noah simple,
>
>
>
> I think a lot of the members
>
What is a lot because I know who always ask what out of over 1500
members.... anyways...

who spend a lot of time questioning AFRINIC and have lost faith and who are
> tired of paying inflated fees for little benefit
>

So its an issue of value for money.

For starters, all members do benefit from the AfriNIC INR they are
allocated/assiged per each individual members request.

What do you reckon is lacking in terms of additional benefits some members
are seeking from AfriNIC?

? would probably transfer out ?
>

Not gonna happen from the grand scheme of things....

> which would leave less people asking difficult questions that it is
> patently obvious people don?t want asked and the board patently obviously
> does not wish to answer
>
Could it be your approach?

Noah

>
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Fri Jun 22 05:08:51 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 05:08:51 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAEqgTWY2KgYTAp5gLrZ4UcS+i_gxqxpj1bf-k0=9oDJEBw-Avw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
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 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN0q0kE9S9ZJ4t2JHxqCV2wZeLx+VPsi7MdMkabXR18DtQqTxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <559ADD49-D014-420B-A438-C2DAD3858B95@hussein.me.ke>
 <661256cb-865e-b0fb-7cdb-c4cac68897ad@gmail.com>
 <3338481529579349@web11o.yandex.ru>
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 <23904EBE-AA4D-437F-91C5-EFDB500DD3BA@liquidtelecom.com>,
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Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB2570C3957DFA805E39306A79EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Noah,

If there was a way to transfer out right now - to be blunt - yes - with the current status quo I would  advise those I represent to use it. And on this I speak only for myself - as these are my opinions.

That stance may change, but first the board would need to make a lot of changes

- fix the corporate governance by explicitly agreeing to abide by the Mauritian code of corporate governance
- concentrate on the core business (allocating ips!)
- be willing to be transparent and take questions from your members at an agmm about how you spend their money - no matter how tough those questions are
- fix the allocation process so you aren?t spending weeks and months waiting for things
- as the owner of the domain and branding of Afrinic lists - accept the fact that as the board ultimate responsibility for enforcing code of conduct is yours - inclusive of the RPD list
- demonstrate to the members the benefits of what our money is spent on - cut the stuff that is of no benefit to the members - and then use the cost reduction to cut the fees
- change the so called registered member structure such that the registered members of the company are legal entities separate from the board - so that at least there are entities with real power to hold the board to account
Finally - some how deal with the geopolitical/linguistic divides that currently split the PDP down the centre and have this community argue based on hard data and researched facts rather than supposition, hyperbole and emotional sentiment - to reduce the business risk posed by this behavior.

Maybe if all that happened - my personal stance on this would change - but until then - I just see money going into a pit and very little of value flowing out of that pit.  So no Noah, this is not just about more value from the organization and about money - it?s about fixing the organization - it is about mitigating what I personally believe is currently a liability on companies in our region - it?s about ensuring that what money is spent - is spent for the benefit of members and the core mandate.

So Noah - not more value for the same money - a fixed organization with less deviation from core mandate that charges less.  (Also remember - if a product costs X and you triple the cost of it because it contains feature Y, if no one wants feature Y - your cost increase may end up putting you out of business)

Andrew

Liquid Telecommunications - Group Head Of IP Strategy
________________________________
From: Noah <noah at neo.co.tz>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 11:57:11 PM
To: Andrew Alston
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC; AfriNIC Board of Directors' List
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting


On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 11:39 pm Andrew Alston, <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Noah simple,

I think a lot of the members
What is a lot because I know who always ask what out of over 1500 members.... anyways...

who spend a lot of time questioning AFRINIC and have lost faith and who are tired of paying inflated fees for little benefit

So its an issue of value for money.

For starters, all members do benefit from the AfriNIC INR they are allocated/assiged per each individual members request.

What do you reckon is lacking in terms of additional benefits some members are seeking from AfriNIC?

? would probably transfer out ?

Not gonna happen from the grand scheme of things....
which would leave less people asking difficult questions that it is patently obvious people don?t want asked and the board patently obviously does not wish to answer
Could it be your approach?

Noah
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From saul at enetworks.co.za  Fri Jun 22 06:14:47 2018
From: saul at enetworks.co.za (Saul Stein)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 08:14:47 +0200 (SAST)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <CAP6btyCJzTHYnsmdFwb4N8i3nqY4Fdcv40JaLDQhwU60kzZjwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
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 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAP6btyCJzTHYnsmdFwb4N8i3nqY4Fdcv40JaLDQhwU60kzZjwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1d6001d409f0$51e12e60$f5a38b20$@enetworks.co.za>

William,

Quite simply: we have a regional RIR and it should be efficient and serve 
the region.



If we all went elsewhere,

a)      What would the purpose be of AFRINICs existence

b)      how would AFRINIC get its funding?



What I don?t understand is why people want to run AFRINIC differently to the 
way you run your own business?



Just because uncomfortable questions are being asked, they get ignored and 
then then those that don?t like them ask for those people to leave the 
organisation? doesn?t make sense to me.



From: William Ametozion [mailto:wametozion at gmail.com]
Sent: 21 June 2018 07:32 PM
To: Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za>
Cc: S Moonesamy <sm+afrinic at elandsys.com>; community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)



Hi Saul,

> As mentioned, some gave up and went to RIPE - they won't have kept their 
> ticket numbers...

Since there is a precedence that some South African ISPs are going to RIPE, 
why not encourage your friend Andrew Alston to follow their example and join 
RIPE and stop being disruptive in AfriNIC Community?

William A.

On Jun 21, 2018 13:19, "Saul Stein" <saul at enetworks.co.za 
<mailto:saul at enetworks.co.za> > wrote:

Dear SM,
This should all be in your ticketing system. Any respectable ticketing
system should be able to report on calls that have taken longer than 3
days to resolve.
I could ask the South African ISPs to produce this list, however, and this
is becoming the issue, what's the point? We, as a membership base have
been complaining about this on the lists for some time and at the AGMMs.

People don't have the time to document every little thing that happens -
it takes time away from them doing what they need to do to make the
companies they work for functional.
As mentioned, some gave up and went to RIPE - they won't have kept their
ticket numbers...

Saul


-----Original Message-----
From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+afrinic at elandsys.com 
<mailto:sm%2Bafrinic at elandsys.com> ]
Sent: 21 June 2018 02:21 PM
To: Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za <mailto:saul at enetworks.co.za> >; 
community-discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: RE: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

Hi Saul,
At 03:44 AM 21-06-2018, Saul Stein wrote:
>Every ISP that I have spoken to complains about the service levels to
>the point that one or two actually got space from RIPE.

Can you please get me the ticket numbers, the dates of the complaints and
the dates the complaints were resolved (if applicable)?

Regards,
S. Moonesamy


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss

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From saul at enetworks.co.za  Fri Jun 22 06:17:27 2018
From: saul at enetworks.co.za (Saul Stein)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 08:17:27 +0200 (SAST)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <CAP6btyCJzTHYnsmdFwb4N8i3nqY4Fdcv40JaLDQhwU60kzZjwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAP6btyCJzTHYnsmdFwb4N8i3nqY4Fdcv40JaLDQhwU60kzZjwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1d6a01d409f0$b11e48e0$135adaa0$@enetworks.co.za>

William,

Quite simply: we have a regional RIR and it should be efficient and serve 
the region.



If we all went elsewhere,

a)      What would the purpose be of AFRINICs existence

b)      how would AFRINIC get its funding?



What I don?t understand is why people want to run AFRINIC differently to the 
way you run your own business?



Just because uncomfortable questions are being asked, they get ignored and 
then then those that don?t like them ask for those people to leave the 
organisation? doesn?t make sense to me.



From: William Ametozion [mailto:wametozion at gmail.com]
Sent: 21 June 2018 07:32 PM
To: Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za>
Cc: S Moonesamy <sm+afrinic at elandsys.com>; community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)



Hi Saul,

> As mentioned, some gave up and went to RIPE - they won't have kept their 
> ticket numbers...

Since there is a precedence that some South African ISPs are going to RIPE, 
why not encourage your friend Andrew Alston to follow their example and join 
RIPE and stop being disruptive in AfriNIC Community?

William A.

On Jun 21, 2018 13:19, "Saul Stein" <saul at enetworks.co.za 
<mailto:saul at enetworks.co.za> > wrote:

Dear SM,
This should all be in your ticketing system. Any respectable ticketing
system should be able to report on calls that have taken longer than 3
days to resolve.
I could ask the South African ISPs to produce this list, however, and this
is becoming the issue, what's the point? We, as a membership base have
been complaining about this on the lists for some time and at the AGMMs.

People don't have the time to document every little thing that happens -
it takes time away from them doing what they need to do to make the
companies they work for functional.
As mentioned, some gave up and went to RIPE - they won't have kept their
ticket numbers...

Saul


-----Original Message-----
From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+afrinic at elandsys.com 
<mailto:sm%2Bafrinic at elandsys.com> ]
Sent: 21 June 2018 02:21 PM
To: Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za <mailto:saul at enetworks.co.za> >; 
community-discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: RE: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

Hi Saul,
At 03:44 AM 21-06-2018, Saul Stein wrote:
>Every ISP that I have spoken to complains about the service levels to
>the point that one or two actually got space from RIPE.

Can you please get me the ticket numbers, the dates of the complaints and
the dates the complaints were resolved (if applicable)?

Regards,
S. Moonesamy


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss

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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Fri Jun 22 06:41:24 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 06:41:24 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB2570B976B47052F9EE8C7CD3EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Figured I'd follow this up btw, because I thought to myself - is that kinda time frame to process an application really that long - in the context of what AFRINIC says delays applications.

According to what has been said in the past publicly - many applications are delayed because clients are slow in responding to requests for additional information.  So - I want to ask this - what is done while staff are awaiting for this documentation.   Because - if requests are being handled in parallel - a delay per individual application should not actually result in the average processing times detailed below.

So - that doesn't hold water.

So I was really curious - lets look at going through the documentation - based on a bit of homework - the average person could read through The Bible - cover to cover - in 43.79 hours.  The average person could read through the entire Harry Potter series in roughly 60.23 hours.  (Figures based on average reading speed)

Now - that would mean if I submitted a documentation pack as thick at the bible - and while I realize that some of AFRINIC documentation requests (like asking for a list of 2 million domains in one case) may produce a truly biblical amount of documentation - that would still leave 50 odd hours to analyse the documentation and process the request.  Things just don't add up here.  Maybe we need Harry Potter to wave his wand to produce an end to an application and he's unavailable?

Thanks

Andrew




From: Andrew Alston [mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com]
Sent: 21 June 2018 16:51
To: Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za>; S Moonesamy <sm+afrinic at elandsys.com>; community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

I have to second this -

In the past I have raised tickets - and no - I'm in the mood to go digging back through mountains of emails to find them - the ticket system should be able to find them - and had no responses for ages.

I also point out that there was an explicit problem reported to the board and the ceo about an investigation - that was made by the South African ISP contingent on the NAP list - a response was forthcoming to say "it was being investigated"

Time frames have been requested - nothing has come back - no time frames - no answers.

This is a repetitive - constant issue - that I have seen raised time and again year after year.  And I have to question what is going on here - lets look at it realistically - AfriNIC employs 9 people in Member Services (still confuses me btw why the IT and engineering team is larger than the team that is meant to handle AfriNIC's core business, because that currently sits at 10).

I went and checked ipv4 allocation requests as per the delegation file going back to the beginning of the year... its now the 21st of June as I write that - there have been 117 work days in Mauritius since the 1st of January.  Between 9 staff - that equates to 1053 Man days - at 8 hours a day that's 8424 man hours - there have been 111 allocations made.

That means - your average turn around time in man hours to do one allocation is running to 75 hours per allocation - or 9 days.  AfriNIC has consistently stated that small allocations are generally very fast - and can be turned around in a day or two - 25 of these allocations were /24s - so lets say we allocate a full 16 hours to each of these allocations - that would take 400 man hours - your average for the rest of them - is now sitting at 93 man hours per allocation - considering your average work week is 40 hours - we're talking about over 2 weeks per every allocation.

Come on people - no one can claim this is acceptable

Andrew




From: Saul Stein [mailto:saul at enetworks.co.za]
Sent: 21 June 2018 16:18
To: S Moonesamy <sm+afrinic at elandsys.com<mailto:sm+afrinic at elandsys.com>>; community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

Dear SM,
This should all be in your ticketing system. Any respectable ticketing
system should be able to report on calls that have taken longer than 3
days to resolve.
I could ask the South African ISPs to produce this list, however, and this
is becoming the issue, what's the point? We, as a membership base have
been complaining about this on the lists for some time and at the AGMMs.

People don't have the time to document every little thing that happens -
it takes time away from them doing what they need to do to make the
companies they work for functional.
As mentioned, some gave up and went to RIPE - they won't have kept their
ticket numbers...

Saul


-----Original Message-----
From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+afrinic at elandsys.com]
Sent: 21 June 2018 02:21 PM
To: Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za<mailto:saul at enetworks.co.za>>; community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: RE: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

Hi Saul,
At 03:44 AM 21-06-2018, Saul Stein wrote:
>Every ISP that I have spoken to complains about the service levels to
>the point that one or two actually got space from RIPE.

Can you please get me the ticket numbers, the dates of the complaints and
the dates the complaints were resolved (if applicable)?

Regards,
S. Moonesamy


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
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From mayoye at seacom.mu  Fri Jun 22 07:10:07 2018
From: mayoye at seacom.mu (Simon Mayoye)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 07:10:07 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <20180622064340.BD5F53088092_B2C9A9CB@mx1.seacom.mu>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
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 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>,
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Message-ID: <1529651406219.46419@seacom.mu>

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for engaging on the list. I would want to mention one thing re: Service level. It would be fair also to Afrinic if we shared some stats rather than generalize, since I believe not all members have been fully let down by Afrinic. Maybe we need to know what kind of commitment(SLA in hours) we have to open a case and to close in the event that clients respond in timely manner and with the requirements that Afrinic want shared then we review this going forward. If there is an issue there, then we may need an explanation from Afrinic on what they require to improve, just the usual thing we do in our respective organizations in the event there is an employee who needs to be appraised.


Let us resolve these problems one by one and improve this AfriNic of ours. As always the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence. Let us fix this slowly and be patient with Afrinic. We can't start complaining now and expect results today. Let us do these things in good faith.


Regards,

Simom Mayoye

________________________________
From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Sent: 22 June 2018 09:41 AM
To: Andrew Alston; Saul Stein; S Moonesamy; community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

Figured I?d follow this up btw, because I thought to myself ? is that kinda time frame to process an application really that long ? in the context of what AFRINIC says delays applications.

According to what has been said in the past publicly ? many applications are delayed because clients are slow in responding to requests for additional information.  So ? I want to ask this ? what is done while staff are awaiting for this documentation.   Because ? if requests are being handled in parallel ? a delay per individual application should not actually result in the average processing times detailed below.

So ? that doesn?t hold water.

So I was really curious ? lets look at going through the documentation ? based on a bit of homework ? the average person could read through The Bible ? cover to cover ? in 43.79 hours.  The average person could read through the entire Harry Potter series in roughly 60.23 hours.  (Figures based on average reading speed)

Now ? that would mean if I submitted a documentation pack as thick at the bible ? and while I realize that some of AFRINIC documentation requests (like asking for a list of 2 million domains in one case) may produce a truly biblical amount of documentation ? that would still leave 50 odd hours to analyse the documentation and process the request.  Things just don?t add up here.  Maybe we need Harry Potter to wave his wand to produce an end to an application and he's unavailable?

Thanks

Andrew




From: Andrew Alston [mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com]
Sent: 21 June 2018 16:51
To: Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za>; S Moonesamy <sm+afrinic at elandsys.com>; community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

I have to second this ?

In the past I have raised tickets ? and no ? I?m in the mood to go digging back through mountains of emails to find them ? the ticket system should be able to find them ? and had no responses for ages.

I also point out that there was an explicit problem reported to the board and the ceo about an investigation ? that was made by the South African ISP contingent on the NAP list ? a response was forthcoming to say ?it was being investigated?

Time frames have been requested ? nothing has come back ? no time frames ? no answers.

This is a repetitive ? constant issue ? that I have seen raised time and again year after year.  And I have to question what is going on here ? lets look at it realistically ? AfriNIC employs 9 people in Member Services (still confuses me btw why the IT and engineering team is larger than the team that is meant to handle AfriNIC?s core business, because that currently sits at 10).

I went and checked ipv4 allocation requests as per the delegation file going back to the beginning of the year? its now the 21st of June as I write that ? there have been 117 work days in Mauritius since the 1st of January.  Between 9 staff ? that equates to 1053 Man days ? at 8 hours a day that?s 8424 man hours ? there have been 111 allocations made.

That means ? your average turn around time in man hours to do one allocation is running to 75 hours per allocation ? or 9 days.  AfriNIC has consistently stated that small allocations are generally very fast ? and can be turned around in a day or two ? 25 of these allocations were /24s ? so lets say we allocate a full 16 hours to each of these allocations ? that would take 400 man hours ? your average for the rest of them ? is now sitting at 93 man hours per allocation ? considering your average work week is 40 hours ? we?re talking about over 2 weeks per every allocation.

Come on people ? no one can claim this is acceptable

Andrew




From: Saul Stein [mailto:saul at enetworks.co.za]
Sent: 21 June 2018 16:18
To: S Moonesamy <sm+afrinic at elandsys.com<mailto:sm+afrinic at elandsys.com>>; community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

Dear SM,
This should all be in your ticketing system. Any respectable ticketing
system should be able to report on calls that have taken longer than 3
days to resolve.
I could ask the South African ISPs to produce this list, however, and this
is becoming the issue, what's the point? We, as a membership base have
been complaining about this on the lists for some time and at the AGMMs.

People don't have the time to document every little thing that happens -
it takes time away from them doing what they need to do to make the
companies they work for functional.
As mentioned, some gave up and went to RIPE - they won't have kept their
ticket numbers...

Saul


-----Original Message-----
From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+afrinic at elandsys.com]
Sent: 21 June 2018 02:21 PM
To: Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za<mailto:saul at enetworks.co.za>>; community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: RE: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

Hi Saul,
At 03:44 AM 21-06-2018, Saul Stein wrote:
>Every ISP that I have spoken to complains about the service levels to
>the point that one or two actually got space from RIPE.

Can you please get me the ticket numbers, the dates of the complaints and
the dates the complaints were resolved (if applicable)?

Regards,
S. Moonesamy


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Fri Jun 22 07:22:05 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 07:22:05 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <1529651406219.46419@seacom.mu>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>,
 <20180622064340.BD5F53088092_B2C9A9CB@mx1.seacom.mu>
 <1529651406219.46419@seacom.mu>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB25709328B1B24D0675081313EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

  *   Let us resolve these problems one by one and improve this AfriNic of ours. As always the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence. Let us fix this slowly and be patient with Afrinic. We can't start complaining now and expect results today. Let us do these things in good faith.



Errr - these complaints - have been on going - for years and years and years and years.  They pre-date my time on the board - they continued (including from myself) while ON the board - and they continue today.



So - I don't expect results from the complaints today - I expect results from the complaints that have been consistent for years.


Andrew
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From alan.barrett at afrinic.net  Fri Jun 22 08:28:10 2018
From: alan.barrett at afrinic.net (Alan Barrett)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 12:28:10 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB25709328B1B24D0675081313EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
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 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
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 <20180622064340.BD5F53088092_B2C9A9CB@mx1.seacom.mu>
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 <HE1PR0301MB25709328B1B24D0675081313EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>

Dear Andrew,

You may have some legitimate questions or concerns, but the way you are raising them is extremely destructive to staff morale.  Staff watch this mailing list and see the organisation being attacked, or their team being attacked.  Also, I can?t reasonably extract questions from the deluge of many email messages per day.

Please use a more appropriate channel for raising concerns.  Here are some options:

* When a ticket is closed, the person who opened the ticket is sent a link to a satisfaction survey.

* When you are dissatisfied with service, you can send a message to <complaints at afrinic.net>.

* If you have questions or concerns that you would like the CEO to deal with, please send them to <ceo at afrinic.net>.

* If you have questions or concerns that you would like the Board to deal with, please send them to <board at afrinic.net>

Alan Barrett
CEO, AFRINIC




From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Fri Jun 22 08:45:01 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 08:45:01 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
In-Reply-To: <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
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 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
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Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB25708E0CE6BA99A8E9C57D12EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Alan,

Sorry to say this - but - these questions - need to be asked and answered in front of the community - this community has a right to the answers.

Since you asked me for succinct questions though - I will ask them straight

a.) What is the board doing about the fact that the organisation cannot - by the bylaws - elect directors - and without elected directors cannot get quorum to host another AGMM - which is a statutory requirement under Mauritian law
b.) Why is the average time taken to process an application in man hours sitting at 75 man hours per application through to the beginning of June this year
c.) Why are the travel costs for the organisation now sitting at the highest levels since 2014 - a 26% rise against a 10.7% rise in revenue
d.) Why did AFRINIC see the need to fly a total of 45 staff members to two member meetings - just 3 shy of the entire staff compliment - what is the benefit for the members of this - since the members are paying for it
e.) Why does the organisation refuse to bind itself to compliance with the Mauritian code of corporate governance
f.) What is the status update of the competitions tribunal enquiry
g.) Why is the IT department inside AFRINIC larger than the member services department that is meant to serve the core interests of AFRINIC - and based on average salaries is costing the membership base close to half a million dollars a year - and I point out - is larger than the IT team in a company that has 250 staff that I know of.
h.) Why did AFRINIC spent 40% of its HR budget in the last quarter of 2017
i.) When will we be getting a response to the outcome of the investigation promised to myself and the members of the NAP list as regards a particular sale of IP space

I can keep going - but I think that is sufficient for now.  

Alan - if asking questions is attacking people - then there is a problem - because if questions are asked by the members and there are no problems with the answers - there is nothing to feel attacked about.  If however - you are saying that members must ask their  questions in the dark and out of sight of this community - you are again asking me to stay away from the precepts of transparency - and I cannot - and will not - do that.

A fundamental principle of a non-profit organisation is accountability to the members who fund the organisation - and in a truly transparent organisation where there is nothing going wrong - the questions I have been asking - over and over and over again - which remain unanswered - would not be embarrassing - there would be simple answers.  If there was something wrong, it would be a case of, we're messing this up, and we're fixing it - done and dusted and the questions go away. However, in an organisation that has consistently refused to engage and answer the questions - and in many cases has adopted the principles of "whataboutism"  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism), which I must admit is a very effective tactic that has been well demonstrated by the likes of Donald Trump - then these constant questions become a problem and we see responses like the one below.

The questions will continue - if not on the community list - then on the member list - if not on the members list - on other forums - I do not mind which - but - until AFRINIC is prepared to be the transparent organisation it claims to be - I will continue to ask the public questions and stand by every single one of them.

Andrew


-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net] 
Sent: 22 June 2018 11:28
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Raising concerns

Dear Andrew,

You may have some legitimate questions or concerns, but the way you are raising them is extremely destructive to staff morale.  Staff watch this mailing list and see the organisation being attacked, or their team being attacked.  Also, I can?t reasonably extract questions from the deluge of many email messages per day.

Please use a more appropriate channel for raising concerns.  Here are some options:

* When a ticket is closed, the person who opened the ticket is sent a link to a satisfaction survey.

* When you are dissatisfied with service, you can send a message to <complaints at afrinic.net>.

* If you have questions or concerns that you would like the CEO to deal with, please send them to <ceo at afrinic.net>.

* If you have questions or concerns that you would like the Board to deal with, please send them to <board at afrinic.net>

Alan Barrett
CEO, AFRINIC


From alan.barrett at afrinic.net  Fri Jun 22 09:05:53 2018
From: alan.barrett at afrinic.net (Alan Barrett)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 13:05:53 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB25708E0CE6BA99A8E9C57D12EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
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 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
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 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
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Message-ID: <4C353097-E487-49C3-9788-3EE12B7265E1@afrinic.net>



> On 22 Jun 2018, at 12:45, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> Since you asked me for succinct questions though - I will ask them straight
> 
> a.) What is the board doing about the fact that the organisation cannot - by the bylaws - elect directors - and without elected directors cannot get quorum to host another AGMM - which is a statutory requirement under Mauritian law
> b.) Why is the average time taken to process an application in man hours sitting at 75 man hours per application through to the beginning of June this year
> c.) Why are the travel costs for the organisation now sitting at the highest levels since 2014 - a 26% rise against a 10.7% rise in revenue
> d.) Why did AFRINIC see the need to fly a total of 45 staff members to two member meetings - just 3 shy of the entire staff compliment - what is the benefit for the members of this - since the members are paying for it
> e.) Why does the organisation refuse to bind itself to compliance with the Mauritian code of corporate governance
> f.) What is the status update of the competitions tribunal enquiry
> g.) Why is the IT department inside AFRINIC larger than the member services department that is meant to serve the core interests of AFRINIC - and based on average salaries is costing the membership base close to half a million dollars a year - and I point out - is larger than the IT team in a company that has 250 staff that I know of.
> h.) Why did AFRINIC spent 40% of its HR budget in the last quarter of 2017
> i.) When will we be getting a response to the outcome of the investigation promised to myself and the members of the NAP list as regards a particular sale of IP space

Thank you.  I will pass some of these on to the Board, and I will answer the operational questions within two weeks.

Alan Barrett




From christianbope at gmail.com  Fri Jun 22 13:51:28 2018
From: christianbope at gmail.com (Bope Christian)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 15:51:28 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC community at Large discussion on the
	list
Message-ID: <2CF961DE-B75D-4813-A1A3-E98220519334@gmail.com>

Dear AFRINIC Members and Community,

The AFRINIC Board welcomes all comments, queries and suggestions from the community at large which improves the organisation. The Board will ensure that all requests are addressed appropriately.

It is important however that we maintain a level of discourse that allows us to benefit from the interaction so the Board will like to remind the community and members to respect the Code of Conduct.

We also encourage members to avoid cross posting to the lists.

The Board would like to remind the community to treat each other with politeness and respect, even when you disagree.

Best Regards,
Christian D. Bope, Ph.D
Chairman, AFRINIC Board




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From seun.ojedeji at gmail.com  Sat Jun 23 15:56:06 2018
From: seun.ojedeji at gmail.com (Seun Ojedeji)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 16:56:06 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss]  Cotonou Meeting
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB257077867EB8FE29AEEA07CBEE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
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 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAD_dc6h3txVK3Zqj92cMW2TKa1jgrYY7UFedw_XjpCqFU8EvMg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Andrew,

As a member of the Board and as a member of auditco that produced the
report you refer (with you as chair), I like to make a comment and a
request on one of your points as I have seen it being repeated for a while.

While the NDA indeed may prevent us from saying certain things, I also
think it could make us claim/infer certain things which to me can impress
upon some us negatively. I recall sometime ago, the former Chair responded
to you that committee reports are normally not published but discussed by
the Board and necessary details are usually minuted during Board meeting.
It is therefore important to note that the "refusal" was not due to the
content of the report but due to the process in itself, which I believe you
also know.

That said, as you and I were part of the members that wrote the report at
that time, I personally believe due attention has been given, but if there
are part of the report you believe the Board hasn't paid attention to, you
have the Board contact and i request you communicate that (since that
allows you to sufficiently express yourself within NDA).

Finally, the development of the organisation should remain our collective
goal and we should all continue to do that. Thanks

Regards
Sent from my mobile
Kindly excuse brevity and typos

On Wed, 20 Jun 2018, 17:01 Andrew Alston, <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
wrote:

> Ali,
>
>
>
> Actually ? what I did and what I said on the board ? I am quite happy for
> the board to open the NDA and let us publish that.  I am tied ? I cannot
> reveal that which I said and did there ? and I would WELCOME a chance to do
> that.
>
>
>
> I asked the board to publish the audit-co report ? they refused.  Let?s
> lift the seal on the executive sessions.  Let?s lift the redactions.  Let?s
> be open and transparent about what was said ? Let us open the board list to
> public scrutiny.
>
>
>
> Bring it on.
>
>
>
> What was I doing though Ali?  I was trying for years to fix the
> organisation ? as I might add were certain other former board members.  In
> some areas ? we succeeded ? in others ? we failed ? and I have no problem
> saying that.  What scares me is ? a lot of the gains ? now seem to be going
> backwards.  As stated ? look at the travel costs that are now at the
> highest level since 2014.
>
>
>
> My scorched earth policy Ali, is based on an intimate knowledge of the
> internals, of things I have seen, and from trying ? and realizing that the
> problems related to the board and the management ? those ? I still think we
> MAY be able to fix ? if we start over ? if we stop clinging to the past ?
> if we remove institutions which allow people to hang around for a MINIMUM
> of **18** years.  However, such a fixes, require the board and the
> management to actually engage and be accountable and WANT to fix it.  It
> requires people to analyse the issues ? and be willing to talk about them.
> It requires people to submit to the member base to which they are
> accountable.  I see none of that.  I see a situation where ? the
> transparency that we do have today ? was created by controversy that was
> stirred in Djibouti ? because without it ? no one cared.  It required a
> lightning rod ? but the transparency is now being eroded.
>
>
>
> If you believe for half a second that I spent years and hours and hours
> doing this for fun, or for a joke, then ? think again my friend ? I fight
> for what I believe in, and I believe in this continent, I believe in the
> need for the internet to grow and florish, I believe that light on a fiber
> knows no borders, no race, no oceans, no languages, no politics ? and I
> believe that this has been forgotten as people have stepped into a world of
> pure hegemony that was allowed to occur through member apathy.
>
>
>
> What I have said time and again ? I will reiterate ? many do not like my
> methods ? nor do they like my solutions ? but ? what I am not seeing is
> other proposals that are concrete and that are not vague and in the air.  I
> am not seeing people argue with researched facts ? I am not seeing people
> correlate what they say to the law and the bylaws.  To quote a verse in the
> bible ? always be ready to offer a defence of your faith.  Part of offering
> a defence is an understanding and a researching of the issues  - it is not
> blind ? it does not argue with vague statements ? facts ? the law ? the
> bylaws ? that is the basis.
>
>
>
> Will  I continue to do what I believe is in the best interests of an
> industry that I have given 23 years of my life to so far? Yes.  If others
> have solutions to the maladministration ? bring them.  If people don?t like
> what the bylaws say ? stop whining ? change them ? if people don?t like the
> management ? change it ? if people don?t like the policies ? advocate for
> why based on hard data and fact.
>
>
>
> For me ? I stand for what I believe in ? and I will continue to do so ?
> and I do not believe that forcing someone to look in the mirror to see the
> organisation falling apart is scorched earth ? it is reality.  Remember ?
> no one told the Emperor he had no clothes?. How did that turn out?
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> *From:* Ali Hussein [mailto:ali at hussein.me.ke]
> *Sent:* 20 June 2018 18:08
> *To:* Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> *Cc:* Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>; General Discussions of
> AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AFRINIC Board of Directors' List
> <board at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> As I recall your rabid objection to everything Afrinic started immediately
> you lost the elections as Board Member. Correct me if I?m wrong. If things
> are so dire as to call for the demise of the organization then what were
> you doing during the time you were a board member?
>
>
>
> You missed the point as to why I wanted to remind EVERYONE ?the reason for
> being? of Afrinic. Your ?Scorched Earth Policy? against the organization is
> for no one?s benefit. Not even for you or your organization that is
> building a continent wide Network.
>
>
>
> Let us be mature on how we engage. We agree that things are not right at
> Afrinic. What you and I disagree on is the process of how to correct it. We
> must do it with maturity, decorum and respect of each other. All of which
> is sorely lacking at the moment.
>
>
>
> *Ali Hussein*
>
> *Principal*
>
> *AHK & Associates*
>
> +254 0713 601113
>
>
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>
> Skype: abu-jomo
>
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>
>
>
> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
> habit."  ~ Aristotle
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
> On 20 Jun 2018, at 9:25 AM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> wrote:
>
> Ok Ali,
>
>
>
> Let me attempt this ? and you and I, it?s rare that we disagree with each
> other, and you know that I have immense respect for you, but in this case,
> disagree with you I must.
>
>
>
> Firstly ? the micro-management of AFRINIC becomes necessary when AFRINIC
> refuses point blank to follow its own rules of engagement as defined by the
> bylaws.  Secondly ? to turn a blind eye to the ?small? issues is to let the
> organisation end up back where it was in 2014, teetering on the brink of
> total financial collapse, with no reserve, making sustained losses that
> could have ended the company.
>
> Thirdly - Let us examine the core mission of AFRINIC and then let us score
> that:
>
>
>
>    1. "Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's
>    sustainable development"
>
> That simply isn?t happening ? no R&D that is visible to the community or
> the members to speak of, a IRDB that myself, and others on this list, have
> consistently says has serious problems and needs rectification ? with no
> indication of how this is going to be ? potentially putting the continent
> at risk if RIPE proceeds with certain actions inside its own DB working
> group ? A situation where members that do ALL their business on this
> continent asking why, after a year of attempting to get legitimate space
> they have none, yet in February 2018 an allocation is made that, within 2
> months is being offered sale ? and AFRINIC?s only response to the multitude
> of queries is ?we?re investigating?? with no time frames given.  The denial
> of an application by one particular major content player that wanted to
> come onto this continent with a request that they provide proof of over 2
> million domains they handle? Oh, and a statement by yet another major
> content player that AFRINIC and the situation it is in is ?unsettling for
> business on the continent? ? no ? AFRINIC is not driving sustained
> development ? and if you believe otherwise ? please ? tell me how they are
>
>
>
>    1. Community driven as a core value
>
> This community asked for and was denied a vote of no confidence by the
> board, and using technicalities to do so.  This community has asked AFRINIC
> to explain the benefit members get out of the insane amount of travel
> (which btw, averages more than 6 trips per employee per year in 2017), and
> never had a proper answer.  This community has asked AFRINIC to explain how
> it plans to fix the **extremely** serious legal predicament it finds
> itself in, with the fact that it cannot get quorum to hold another AGMM and
> it cannot, by its own bylaws, elect directors to get that quorum ? and have
> been ignored.  So please ? tell me how we meet this objective
>
>
>
>    1. Operational excellence?  Really ? If you really need me to
>    elaborate on this ? let me know ? I?ll happily paste the pages and pages of
>    what members who are attempting to get space out of AFRINIC for very
>    legitimate business needs are saying on lists all over the continent.
>
>
>
>    1. Passion?  Where is this passion ? What I see is that the members
>    who are passionate about this organization and the good of the continent
>    and ensuring that the organization is financially sustainable and well run
>    by good corporate governance are told to shut up ? go away ? and not make
>    waves ? and not to sweat the small things.  We are closer to asking for
>    apathy than we are for passion
>
>
>
>    1. Innovation & Creativity ? please Ali ? tell me where this is ? what
>    innovation has come from AFRINIC?  Where is this innovation ? because if
>    it?s there ? I do not see it ? and if I?m wrong ? then I need to be shown
>    the error I am making.
>
>
>
> So ? by my count so far ? in my view ? we are failing ENTIRELY on the
> vision ? and 4 core values you listed.  Now let?s move on to the next
> points:
>
>
>
>    1. People management ? Please ? just go back and look at the last few
>    months ? I need not say anything more on this point
>    2. Plans & Processes? When I asked on this list if AFRINIC would
>    adhere to the Mauritian code of corporate governance ? I was told that it
>    was ?optional? for companies like AFRINIC (which is technically true).
>    When I have asked AFRINIC if they are willing to publish the minutes of the
>    sub-board committees ? they have openly refused.  The strategic plan as it
>    stands ? a strategic plan is a living document ? look at when that document
>    that was sent was last revised or updated.  Let?s do a tangible analysis
>    not just on the plans ? but on the delivery against those plans ? and see
>    where we are ? I don?t think you?d like the results of such an analysis.
>    3. Budget Discipline and associated items ? This is an interesting one
>    ? except ? there is a problem ? if your revenue is increasing at 10.7% and
>    you are budgeting for opex increases in categories in excess of 20% and are
>    budgeting against projected growth figures ? you have an issue.  When you
>    stand and tell the members ? we wish to raise the fees by an effective 5% -
>    while already making surplus ? and while you are not explaining the benefit
>    to those putting in money of how you are spending your money ? no budget in
>    the world covers for this.  A budget must be adhered to ? but the members
>    of a non-profit organization should also have some say in how that money is
>    spent ? particularly when they start to question if the money is being
>    spent serving the company?s primary objective.  Myself and others ? we are
>    certainly questioning if that is the case.
>    4. Community confidence / trust ? well ? again ? I don?t even need to
>    comment on this ? the ballot box in Dakar spoke for itself
>    5. Continuous community engagement and support?  This needs to happen
>    ? I 100% agree with you ? however, it needs to be defined what it means ?
>    it does not mean giving away money to organisations that have NO
>    accountability and that refuse to be audited for 10 years as an example.
>    It does not mean making the community wait months for answers to questions
>    which directly affect this organization.  It does mean sticking to the
>    clauses as defined in article 3 of the bylaws ? something AFRINIC has
>    singularly failed to do ? in particular in terms of clause 3.4.vii of the
>    bylaws.  Part of continuous community engagement is defined so well in
>    3.4.vii ? that states that the board should disseminate among its members
>    information on _*ALL*_ matters affecting the Company and its members.
>    And as many of my comments above this will show ? that ? has not happened
>    and is not happening.
>    6. Effective operational processes and an agile organizational
>    structure ? Well, on this, I can only comment on what I see from outside ?
>    and I would argue that if this existed ? the comments appearing on other
>    lists around this continent about the constant struggle to get anything out
>    of AFRINIC would not be there.  I would argue that if this existed ? the
>    incidents that lead to a full blown investigation followed by a refusal to
>    publish the actual report ? would not have come to fruition.
>
>
>
> In my book ? and for many many others that I speak to on a daily basis ?
> AfriNIC fails on every single one of the above points.
>
>
>
> So yes ? I openly called AFRINIC an abject failure as it stands today ?
> and I did so publicly ? because ? by any objective evaluation of the above
> points ? we have failed in a core mission ? we have failed in our core
> values ? and we have failed on the critical success factors.  We have
> plowed millions into training across the continent ? and while I realize
> that objectively measuring the success of training is pretty difficult ?
> considering how much of that training has been focused on IPv6 deployment ?
> and considering the V6 deployment rates across the continent ? we have
> failed there as well.  (Please note ? I do not blame the trainers here, I
> would say it?s probably more the fault of those who do not apply that
> training, but the reality remains ? if you are pouring money into something
> with no tangible results, you are failing ? badly)
>
>
>
> So Ali ? when you say do not focus on the small issues ? >From 2005 when I
> actively started engaging with AFRINIC ? I have seen a consistent refusal
> to focus on the macro issues ? a consistent refusal to focus on the micro
> issues ? and a consistent attempt to hide behind technicalities and every
> other thing in the book to avoid accountability and responsibility.  So
> right now, EVERY issue is in focus ? and I believe that the only way any
> organization can truly thrive, is to be willing to answer the questions and
> to take a long hard look at themselves, either through the questions their
> members ask or through external review ? and be willing to face the hard
> realities when they are going so terribly wrong.
>
>
>
> Again ? I stand by my statement ? that by any objective measure right now
> ? AfriNIC has failed ? and while it has the ability to turn itself around ?
> the path it is on right now ? celebrating the failures rather than staying
> home and fixing the significant problems ? is no way to do that.  The path
> it is on right now ? leads to annihilation.
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Ali Hussein [mailto:ali at hussein.me.ke <ali at hussein.me.ke>]
> *Sent:* 20 June 2018 08:03
> *To:* Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>; General
> Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AFRINIC Board of
> Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
>
>
> Hi all
>
>
>
> Been following these conversations for the last few days with interest and
> dismay. We have become fractioned that we query and deem unnecessary such
> important events. We probably need to go back to the core reason Afrinic
> was created. let me recount our Vision and Mission:-
>
>
>
> V
>
> ?ISION
>
> ?
>
> "Be the leading force in growing the internet for Africa's sustainable
> development"
>
>
>
>
>
> ?MISSION
>
> ?
>
> "To serve the African Community by providing professional and efficient
> management of Internet number technology usage and development, and
> promoting Internet self-governance."
>
>
>
> *?**CORE VALUES**?*
>
>    - Community driven
>    - Operational excellence
>    - Passion
>    - Innovation & Creativity
>
>
>
>    - *CRITICAL SUCCESS FACTORS*
>
>
>    - ?
>
> People management (right people, competent, mindset, engaged, clear
> objectives, committed, etc)
>
>    - Technical Infrastructure's reliability and resilience
>    - Plans & Processes
>    - Funding:
>
>
>    - Financial Sustainability
>       - Infrastructure and space
>       - Budget discipline
>
>
>    - Community Trust/Confidence
>    - Continuous community engagement and support
>    - Effective Operational Processes and Agile Organisational structure
>
>
>
> *?*Instead of being so pedantic and questioning every little thing the
> organization is doing I say let's go back to these core issues above. And
> let's ask ourselves:-
>
>
>
> Despite all the challenges we are currently facing what have we achieved?
> And when answering this let's not just speak about the paying members.
> Afrinic is much more than paying members! Afrinic is about the very
> Internet Ecosystem in the co?ntinent. Let us be circumspect lest we kill
> the baby with the bath water.
>
>
>
> ?Regards?
>
>
>
> *Ali Hussein*
>
> *Principal*
>
> *AHK & Associates*
>
>
>
> Tel: +254 713 601113
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>
> Skype: abu-jomo
>
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>
>
>
> 13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,
>
> Chiromo Road, Westlands,
>
> Nairobi, Kenya.
>
>
> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely
> mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the
> organizations that I work with.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 1:50 AM, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Andrew,
>
> I wonder about your motives that seem inappropriate to me this last couple
> of months, in such that, with all respect due to you, I wanted to tell you
> to stop paying your $50k annual fee, and go rent your resources to another
> RIR.  Afrinic will not died.
>
> Please tell here if your statements here and questions engage yourself or
> your company? Because it is inacceptable that a single member micromanages
> Afrinic, this is a lack of respect to the Afrinic body.
>
> I'm really shocked and got boring with your mails. The CEO should have
> never replied to it. I am not the one who have to ask you to wait for the
> financial annual report or the auditor's report at the AGMM to ask these
> multiple questions.
>
> I think you're crossed over the line at this point, do you forget the
> principle that the CEO reports to the Board, and that the Board reports to
> members at an AGMM? Where do you come from with the questions on the
> figures in the mid-year budget and particulary on sponsoring of the Cotonou
> event?
>
> I also see that you're giving yourself too much liberty, to the point of
> asking ICANN if it is sponsoring the Cotonou event, this is again a lack of
> respect to the ICANN body.
>
> For the sake of the African Internet community, for the sake of the
> Afrinic members, and this is my recommandation to the Board:  I am
> requesting  the Board to put you under discipline because of these
> attitudes that tarnish the image of Afrinic and its members.
>
>
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Janvier NGNOULAYE
>
> Afrinic Member
>
> Former Afrinic Board member
>
> Yaounde - Cameroon
>
>
>
>
>
> Le mar. 19 juin 2018 ? 22:09, Andrew Alston <
> Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> a ?crit :
>
> Just wanted to add ? did you think I would be embarrassed by you leaking
> that? Or attempt to deny it?
>
>
>
> Dude ? come on ? get real ? MANY people on that list that are on that
> group ? if I was ashamed of that post ? well ? I wouldn?t have posted it
> where half this list could already see it ? as plain as day.
>
>
>
> I do find it very interesting that you choose to take stuff off a group
> that has strict rules about external posts ? and post it here for your own
> purposes.
>
>
>
> ? And I can guess who gave it to you ? because its not hard to correlate
> members of this list to members of that group ? but **shrug** who cares ?
> its as good as a public post ? I don?t say things that I won?t stand by ? I
> stand by that one
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> *From: *William Ametozion <wametozion at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 19 June 2018 at 23:19
> *To: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> *Cc: *Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>, "
> community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, AFRINIC
> Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> *Subject: *Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
>
>
> Dear Community,
>
>
>
> I came across a screenshot of a post (attached) by a member of AFRINIC
> Community on ICANN Facebook page and would like to share with you.
>
>
>
> Yes we may not have attained all our goals but the truth must be told that
> we have made progress .
>
>
>
> No matter how bitter one is, history of Internet in Africa cannot be
> changed based on someone?s whims and caprices. Indeed pioneers deserve
> commendation and not unbridled hatred as shown. Africa deserves
> encouragement rather than this reckless attempt to destroy AFRINIC.
>
>
>
> I cannot wait to be in Cotonou. Let us all including friends of Africa
> join in the Celebration of IG 1998 - 2018 on July 6, 2018.
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> On 19 June 2018 at 13:21, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> wrote:
>
> Alan,
>
>
>
> Does this include the cocktail sponsorship ? if it does ? can we calculate
> as follows based on previous trips to work out the approximate cost of
> attendance:
>
>
>
> Average cost per person in flights (based on previous financials) -
> $2049.50
>
> Sponsorship $3000
>
> Accommodation while there since it?s a 2 day event - $500 odd dollars per
> person (conservatively)
>
> 5 total people
>
>
>
> Cost to the membership for this ? roughly $16k?
>
>
>
> I just wanna be sure I have the numbers straight here
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> *From:* Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
> *Sent:* 19 June 2018 16:15
> *To:* community-discuss at afrinic.net
> *Cc:* AFRINIC Board of Directors' List <board at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 15 Jun 2018, at 16:50, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > So AfriNIC Board / Management ? can you please disclose EXACTLY what was
> sponsored for this event ? how much ? who is going ? and what are the
> members paying towards an event that is not even listed on your events
> calendar? I?d like to know how much of our money is being squandered.
>
> AFRINIC is not organising the event in Cotonou on 6 July 2018, but was
> invited to participate. AFRINIC is contributing $3000 in sponsorship, and
> will cover the costs for attendance by the CEO, one or two other staff, and
> the Chair and Vice Chair of the Board.
>
> Regards,
>
> Alan Barrett
> CEO, AFRINIC
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> board mailing list
> board at afrinic.net
>
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From saul at enetworks.co.za  Mon Jun 25 06:37:28 2018
From: saul at enetworks.co.za (Saul Stein)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 08:37:28 +0200 (SAST)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20180621075432.0b87cc78@elandnews.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621075432.0b87cc78@elandnews.com>
Message-ID: <24df01d40c4e$fc7e6030$f57b2090$@enetworks.co.za>

Hi SM, 
Here is a ticket from another ISP:

Ticket:  #437176 

Applied on the 15/08/2016, only received the invoice for the allocation on
09/09/2016 and received the allocation on 12/09/2019  
i.e 29 days from date of application to actually receiving the allocation.

All this just to add a /19 to our other allocation of a /22.

As mentioned:
a) the ticketing system should be able to supply this information
b) people tend to move on from bad experiences and don't hang onto the
information. Luckily it is not something that we have to do on a daily
basis.

Saul

-----Original Message-----
From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+afrinic at elandsys.com] 
Sent: 21 June 2018 05:44 PM
To: Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za>; community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: RE: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

Hi Saul,
At 06:17 AM 21-06-2018, Saul Stein wrote:
>This should all be in your ticketing system. Any respectable ticketing 
>system should be able to report on calls that have taken longer than 3 
>days to resolve.
>I could ask the South African ISPs to produce this list, however, and 
>this is becoming the issue, what's the point? We, as a membership base 
>have been complaining about this on the lists for some time and at the
AGMMs.

The statistics [1] which I have access to does not show the number of
tickets which took longer than three days to resolve.  I need some
information to be able to make an internal request.  I am not asking for
an exhaustive list.  As an example, Mr Beneke provided a data point [2].
The information is useful to me.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. https://www.afrinic.net/en/services/statistics/rt-stats
2.
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2018-June/002460.htm
l 




From alan.barrett at afrinic.net  Mon Jun 25 07:08:37 2018
From: alan.barrett at afrinic.net (Alan Barrett)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 11:08:37 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <24df01d40c4e$fc7e6030$f57b2090$@enetworks.co.za>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621075432.0b87cc78@elandnews.com>
 <24df01d40c4e$fc7e6030$f57b2090$@enetworks.co.za>
Message-ID: <F6FC9DDB-A2BF-4AB6-A714-8E0F9999A5E2@afrinic.net>



> On 25 Jun 2018, at 10:37, Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za> wrote:
> 
> Hi SM, 
> Here is a ticket from another ISP:
> 
> Ticket:  #437176 
> 
> Applied on the 15/08/2016, only received the invoice for the allocation on
> 09/09/2016 and received the allocation on 12/09/2019  
> i.e 29 days from date of application to actually receiving the allocation.
> 
> All this just to add a /19 to our other allocation of a /22.

Thank you, Saul.  This sort of detail is useful.

I checked the ticket, and found that the longest response time from AFRINIC was 4 working days.  That does not meet our ?Service Level Commitment? of 2 working days.

Alan Barrett




From saul at enetworks.co.za  Mon Jun 25 07:17:54 2018
From: saul at enetworks.co.za (Saul Stein)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 09:17:54 +0200 (SAST)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
In-Reply-To: <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <2! 018062206 4340.BD5F53088
 092_B2C9A9CB@mx1.seacom.mu> <1529651406219.46419@seacom.mu>
 <HE1PR0301MB25709328B1B24D0675081313EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <25ae01d40c54$a23f7180$e6be5480$@enetworks.co.za>

Hi Alan,
I must be honest, those surveys are really a waste of time and don't ask any 
relevant or meaningful feedback.
I have very rarely had a ticket go well or timeously and the surveys have 
never facilitated the appropriate response.
I have tried addressing it in the past, but I don?t think it went anywhere.

Saul


-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
Sent: 22 June 2018 10:28 AM
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns

Dear Andrew,

You may have some legitimate questions or concerns, but the way you are 
raising them is extremely destructive to staff morale.  Staff watch this 
mailing list and see the organisation being attacked, or their team being 
attacked.  Also, I can?t reasonably extract questions from the deluge of 
many email messages per day.

Please use a more appropriate channel for raising concerns.  Here are some 
options:

* When a ticket is closed, the person who opened the ticket is sent a link 
to a satisfaction survey.

* When you are dissatisfied with service, you can send a message to 
<complaints at afrinic.net>.

* If you have questions or concerns that you would like the CEO to deal 
with, please send them to <ceo at afrinic.net>.

* If you have questions or concerns that you would like the Board to deal 
with, please send them to <board at afrinic.net>

Alan Barrett
CEO, AFRINIC


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss



From dabu.sifiso at yandex.com  Mon Jun 25 08:43:14 2018
From: dabu.sifiso at yandex.com (Dabu Sifiso)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 03:43:14 -0500
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
In-Reply-To: <25ae01d40c54$a23f7180$e6be5480$@enetworks.co.za>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <2! 018062206 4340.BD5F53088
 092_B2C9A9CB@mx1.seacom.mu> <1529651406219.46419@seacom.mu>
 <HE1PR0301MB25709328B1B24D0675081313EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
 <25ae01d40c54$a23f7180$e6be5480$@enetworks.co.za>
Message-ID: <302121529916194@web23g.yandex.ru>

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From sm+afrinic at elandsys.com  Mon Jun 25 09:07:32 2018
From: sm+afrinic at elandsys.com (S Moonesamy)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 02:07:32 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <24df01d40c4e$fc7e6030$f57b2090$@enetworks.co.za>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621075432.0b87cc78@elandnews.com>
 <24df01d40c4e$fc7e6030$f57b2090$@enetworks.co.za>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20180625001741.0baa9f08@elandnews.com>

Hi Saul,
At 11:37 PM 24-06-2018, Saul Stein wrote:
>Here is a ticket from another ISP:

Thank you for providing a ticket number.

>As mentioned:
>a) the ticketing system should be able to supply this information
>b) people tend to move on from bad experiences and don't hang onto the
>information. Luckily it is not something that we have to do on a daily
>basis.

I agree that a ticketing system should be able to generate 
statistics.  As a general comment about (b), the lack of factual 
information makes it difficult to identify the cause of the "bad 
experiences" and to assess whether to allocate additional resources 
for the work.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy 




From amelnaud at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 11:21:40 2018
From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 11:21:40 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
In-Reply-To: <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <20180622064340.BD5F53088092_B2C9A9CB@mx1.seacom.mu>
 <1529651406219.46419@seacom.mu>
 <HE1PR0301MB25709328B1B24D0675081313EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <CAGDMR_cw=PELba1M9O8S66KAN6Ki8-D0mGvpO_d+j3WrOg3bJw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear CEO,

I'm very worried, It's unfortunate that a CEO waits for complaints from his
staff before rebuking someone who is degrading the image of his institution
(AFRINIC). This is not what is expected of a CEO who knows how to do his
job, because he should have on his own noted the degrading remarks that
some people hold on AFRINIC, and made the necessary arrangements to caution
them about it, in a timely manner.

When it start affecting staff, the damage may be big and irreversible.

Arnaud.

2018-06-22 8:28 GMT+00:00 Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>:

> Dear Andrew,
>
> You may have some legitimate questions or concerns, but the way you are
> raising them is extremely destructive to staff morale.  Staff watch this
> mailing list and see the organisation being attacked, or their team being
> attacked.  Also, I can?t reasonably extract questions from the deluge of
> many email messages per day.
>
> Please use a more appropriate channel for raising concerns.  Here are some
> options:
>
> * When a ticket is closed, the person who opened the ticket is sent a link
> to a satisfaction survey.
>
> * When you are dissatisfied with service, you can send a message to
> <complaints at afrinic.net>.
>
> * If you have questions or concerns that you would like the CEO to deal
> with, please send them to <ceo at afrinic.net>.
>
> * If you have questions or concerns that you would like the Board to deal
> with, please send them to <board at afrinic.net>
>
> Alan Barrett
> CEO, AFRINIC
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
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From alan.barrett at afrinic.net  Mon Jun 25 12:00:43 2018
From: alan.barrett at afrinic.net (Alan Barrett)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 16:00:43 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
In-Reply-To: <302121529916194@web23g.yandex.ru>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <2! 018062206 4340.BD5F53088 092_B2C9A9CB@mx1.seacom.mu>
 <1529651406219.46419@seacom.mu>
 <HE1PR0301MB25709328B1B24D0675081313EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
 <25ae01d40c54$a23f7180$e6be5480$@enetworks.co.za>
 <302121529916194@web23g.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <405060CB-41B5-4986-9B14-A465D7FB11AC@afrinic.net>

Dear Dabu,

> On 25 Jun 2018, at 12:43, Dabu Sifiso <dabu.sifiso at yandex.com> wrote:
> The numbers at the following location are puzzling:
> https://www.afrinic.net/en/services/statistics/rt-stats
>  
> What is "Total logged" vs "Total opened"?
>  
> The total amount of tickets closed is consistently lower than the total amount opened per month in all the categories.
> The backlog can only increase based on those numbers.
>  
> What happens with the tickets in the "Total still open" category, how are they reported from one month to the next month?
> I assumed they might be in "total logged", but then the numbers do not add up.

I agree, the statistics are difficult to understand, and some things don?t seem to add up.  I hope that we can improve the statistics soon.

In the table near the top of the page at <https://www.afrinic.net/en/services/statistics/rt-stats>, I believe that ?Total logged? is the number of new tickets created; and ?Total opened? is the number that transitioned from ?new? state to ?open? state (spam tickets can be closed without ever reaching ?open? state).  I think that there is no carryover from one month to the next, so tickets opened in one month, but closed in another month, appear in the ?Number opened? count under the first month, but do not appear in the ?Number closed? count in the last month.  This is confusing.

> I can see the older tickets eventually get closed as in May hostmaster had an  "RT Average Turnaround Time" of over 85 days.
> So obviously ticket from previous months were being closed as they drastically dragged the average TT up in May.
>  
> What was the age of the oldest ticket closed in May?
> Was it 5 months old or older?

The oldest ticket closed in May 2018 had been opened on 3 January 2018.

Notice that there are two averages: For hostmaster tickets opened in May and also closed in May 2018, the average was 1.69 days; for tickets opened before May and closed in May, the average was 85.38 days.

Averages are obviously not a very good way of reporting these statistics.  I have sent the IT team some suggestions for better statistics.

> How are the days from the turnaround time counted?
> Does 7 days equal to one calendar week (Monday to Sunday) or to 7 working days (Monday to Friday)?
> 85 = ~12 calendar weeks (12 X 7 days weeks).
> or
> 85 = ~17 weeks of working days (17X5 working days weeks)?

These statistics use calendar days (7 days per week), not working days (5 days per week except, minus holidays).

Alan Barrett




From saul at enetworks.co.za  Tue Jun 26 06:18:23 2018
From: saul at enetworks.co.za (Saul Stein)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 08:18:23 +0200 (SAST)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20180621075432.0b87cc78@elandnews.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621075432.0b87cc78@elandnews.com>
Message-ID: <28cd01d40d15$7c8b5f50$75a21df0$@enetworks.co.za>

Hi, 
Another ticket provided to me : [AFRINIC #608664]

Saul


-----Original Message-----
From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+afrinic at elandsys.com] 
Sent: 21 June 2018 05:44 PM
To: Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za>; community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: RE: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

Hi Saul,
At 06:17 AM 21-06-2018, Saul Stein wrote:
>This should all be in your ticketing system. Any respectable ticketing 
>system should be able to report on calls that have taken longer than 3 
>days to resolve.
>I could ask the South African ISPs to produce this list, however, and 
>this is becoming the issue, what's the point? We, as a membership base 
>have been complaining about this on the lists for some time and at the
AGMMs.

The statistics [1] which I have access to does not show the number of
tickets which took longer than three days to resolve.  I need some
information to be able to make an internal request.  I am not asking for
an exhaustive list.  As an example, Mr Beneke provided a data point [2].
The information is useful to me.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. https://www.afrinic.net/en/services/statistics/rt-stats
2.
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2018-June/002460.htm
l 




From sm+afrinic at elandsys.com  Tue Jun 26 06:50:56 2018
From: sm+afrinic at elandsys.com (S Moonesamy)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 23:50:56 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <28cd01d40d15$7c8b5f50$75a21df0$@enetworks.co.za>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621075432.0b87cc78@elandnews.com>
 <28cd01d40d15$7c8b5f50$75a21df0$@enetworks.co.za>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20180625232500.0b32f7f8@elandnews.com>

Hi Saul,
At 11:18 PM 25-06-2018, Saul Stein wrote:
>Another ticket provided to me : [AFRINIC #608664]

Thanks.

The response time for the previous ticket was not within the two-day 
limit which is stated in the service level commitment.

It is likely that there are at least two issues:

   (a) The response time for requests for allocations of IP address space is
       taking too long.

   (b) The current reporting (statistics) does not provide clear information to
       identify how many tickets are not within the two-day service level
       commitment.

I will follow up on members-discuss mailing list.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy 




From saul at enetworks.co.za  Tue Jun 26 07:21:05 2018
From: saul at enetworks.co.za (Saul Stein)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 09:21:05 +0200 (SAST)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20180625232500.0b32f7f8@elandnews.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621075432.0b87cc78@elandnews.com>
 <28cd01d40d15$7c8b5f50$75a21df0$@enet! works.co. za> <6.2.5.6.2
 .20180625232500.0b32f7f8@elandnews.com>
Message-ID: <298a01d40d1e$3e9725e0$bbc571a0$@enetworks.co.za>

So here are 3 tickets confirming what Andrew is going on about. 

Please can we get commitments by when the ticket system will be modified
to be to provide management overview and insight or a new system spec'd

-----Original Message-----
From: S Moonesamy [mailto:sm+afrinic at elandsys.com] 
Sent: 26 June 2018 08:51 AM
To: Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za>; community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: RE: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)

Hi Saul,
At 11:18 PM 25-06-2018, Saul Stein wrote:
>Another ticket provided to me : [AFRINIC #608664]

Thanks.

The response time for the previous ticket was not within the two-day limit
which is stated in the service level commitment.

It is likely that there are at least two issues:

   (a) The response time for requests for allocations of IP address space
is
       taking too long.

   (b) The current reporting (statistics) does not provide clear
information to
       identify how many tickets are not within the two-day service level
       commitment.

I will follow up on members-discuss mailing list.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy 




From alan.barrett at afrinic.net  Tue Jun 26 08:42:49 2018
From: alan.barrett at afrinic.net (Alan Barrett)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 12:42:49 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <298a01d40d1e$3e9725e0$bbc571a0$@enetworks.co.za>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621075432.0b87cc78@elandnews.com>
 <28cd01d40d15$7c8b5f50$75a21df0$@enet! works.co. za> <6.2.5.6.2
 .20180625232500.0b32f7f8@elandnews.com>
 <298a01d40d1e$3e9725e0$bbc571a0$@enetworks.co.za>
Message-ID: <9A5ED8E1-AC25-49C7-B083-BE8D3D183083@afrinic.net>



> On 26 Jun 2018, at 11:21, Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za> wrote:
> 
> So here are 3 tickets confirming what Andrew is going on about. 

I certainly recognise that we don't always keep to our service level commitment.

> Please can we get commitments by when the ticket system will be modified
> to be to provide management overview and insight or a new system spec?d

We specified such a system last year, and started implementing it earlier this year.  I can?t give a commitment for when it will be finished, but the target is for late Q3 2018.

Alan Barrett


From saul at enetworks.co.za  Tue Jun 26 09:16:00 2018
From: saul at enetworks.co.za (Saul Stein)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 11:16:00 +0200 (SAST)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Cotonou Meeting (off-topic)
In-Reply-To: <9A5ED8E1-AC25-49C7-B083-BE8D3D183083@afrinic.net>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621075432.0b87cc78@elandnews.com>
 <28cd01d40d15$7c8b5f50$75a21df0$@enet! ! works.c o. za> <6.2.5.
 6.2 .20180625232500.0b32f7f8@elandnews.com>
 <298a01d40d1e$3e9725e0$bbc571a0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <9A5ED8E1-AC25-49C7-B083-BE8D3D183083@afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <2ae101d40d2e$4c3845c0$e4a8d140$@enetworks.co.za>

Hi Alan,
>We specified such a system last year, and started implementing it earlier 
>this year.  I can?t give a commitment for when it will be finished, but the 
>target is for late Q3 2018.
Erm, without a committed time frame, there is no end goal. Is the end of Q3 
the deadline? A moving deadline means things never get completed.

Looking forward to hearing about its completion and a link to see a dash 
board of open tickets, tickets out of SLA - the standard stuff.

Thanks
Saul




From christianbope at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 13:41:41 2018
From: christianbope at gmail.com (Bope Christian)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 15:41:41 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC Investigation Committee Report
Message-ID: <1ABC2EBF-F25B-4531-BB3D-7F67B8C95759@gmail.com>

[version fran?ais ci-dessous]

Dear AFRINIC members and community,

The Governance Committee made the following recommendations with respect to the allegations which were investigated by Benoit Chambers on the report submitted to the Board on 4 May 2018  [https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-govcom-report-to-board-20180505-en.pdf <https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-govcom-report-to-board-20180505-en.pdf>]:
The Board accept the report;
the Board publish the relevant parts of the report to the community in the spirit of accountability and transparency;
and the Board considers the recommendations in the report for further action.

The Board agrees to the above recommendations.

The Board tasked the Governance Committee to provide a version of the Investigation Committee report that is conformant with data protection, confidentiality, privacy and other applicable laws.  The Governance Committee provided its version of the report on 25 May.  After considering the redacted version of the report, the Board then decided to further request the GC to contact the IC to provide the report conformant with data protection, confidentiality, privacy and other applicable laws that are suitable for publication. The GC provided the redacted version of the report on the 25th of June 2018 which is published at: [https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-investigation-redacted-report-20180621-en.pdf <https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-investigation-redacted-report-20180621-en.pdf>]

In accordance with a commitment made on 6 May 2018, that the Board intends to provide feedback to the community no later than 31 July 2018 on the next steps.  Here are some of the actions being considered:

Take appropriate human resources action on those who received adverse findings in the course of the investigation;
Establish a code of ethics as a way to address inappropriate behaviour within AFRINIC;
AFRINIC to put processes in place that will deal with issues of workplace harassment;
Revise AFRINIC?s  human resources procedures;
Set up a whistleblower mechanism;
Consider review of Board resolution 201411.211 regarding NDA;
The Board is considering the review of AFRINIC organisational structure;
Revise AFRINIC?s Board procedure and processes;
Make sure that all aggrieved parties are treated fairly;
The Board shall be initiating a community engagement survey which will be to better understand the concerns of the community with the aim of addressing them.
In due course, the Board will be providing to the community an update regarding the completion of each item of the action plan.

Best Regards,
Christian D. Bope, Ph.D
Chairman, AFRINIC Board



---

[version fran?ais]

Chers membres et communaut? d'AFRINIC,

Le Comit? de la gouvernance a formul? les recommandations suivantes concernant les all?gations qui ont fait l'objet d'une enqu?te de Beno?t Chambers sur le rapport soumis au Conseil d?administration  le 4 mai 2018 [https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-govcom-report-to-board-20180505-en.pdf <https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-govcom-report-to-board-20180505-en.pdf> ]:

Le Conseil d?administration accepte le rapport;

le Conseil d?administration publie les parties pertinentes du rapport ? la communaut? dans un esprit de responsabilit? et de transparence; et

le Conseil d?administration consid?re les recommandations du rapport pour d'autres actions.

Le conseil d?administration accepte les recommandations ci-dessus.

Le conseil d?administration a charg? le comit? de la gouvernance de fournir une version du rapport du comit? d'enqu?te conforme ? la protection des donn?es, ? la confidentialit?, ? la vie priv?e et aux autres lois applicables. Le comit? de gouvernance a fourni sa version du rapport le 25 mai. Apr?s avoir examin? la version r?dig?e du rapport, le Conseil d?administration a ensuite d?cid? de demander au GC de communiquer avec le CI pour fournir un rapport conforme ? la protection des donn?es, ? la confidentialit?, ? la vie priv?e et aux autres lois applicables. Le GC a fourni la version r?dig?e du rapport le 25 juin 2018, qui est publi? ? l'adresse suivante: [https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-investigation-redacted-report-20180621-en.pdf <https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-investigation-redacted-report-20180621-en.pdf> ]

Conform?ment ? l'engagement pris le 6 mai 2018, le Conseil d?administration a l'intention d?informer la communaut? au plus tard le 31 juillet 2018 sur les prochaines ?tapes. Voici certaines des actions envisag?es :

Prendre au niveau des ressources humaines, suite au r?sultat de l?enqu?te, les mesures appropri?es ? l'encontre de ceux qui font objet de conclusions d?favorables.
?tablir un code d'?thique pour pr?venir les comportements inappropri?s au sein d'AFRINIC.
Mettre en place ? AFRINIC des processus qui traiteront des probl?mes de harc?lement au travail.
R?viser les proc?dures de ressources humaines d'AFRINIC.
Mettre en place un m?canisme de d?nonciation.
Envisager un r?examen de la r?solution 201411.211 du Conseil d?administration concernant la NDA
Le Conseil envisage d'examiner la structure organisationnelle d'AFRINIC;
R?viser la proc?dure et les processus du Conseil d?administration d'AFRINIC;
S?assurer que toutes les parties l?s?es sont trait?es ?quitablement
Le Conseil d?administration doit lancer une enqu?te sur l'engagement communautaire qui permettra de mieux comprendre les pr?occupations de la communaut? dans le but de les aborder.

En temps opportun, le Conseil d?administration  fournira ? la communaut? une mise ? jour concernant l'aboutissement de chaque ?l?ment du plan d'action.

Cordialement,
Christian D. Bope, Ph.D
Pr?sident du Conseil d?Administration d?AFRINIC





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From amelnaud at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 19:01:45 2018
From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 19:01:45 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB25708E0CE6BA99A8E9C57D12EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <20180622064340.BD5F53088092_B2C9A9CB@mx1.seacom.mu>
 <1529651406219.46419@seacom.mu>
 <HE1PR0301MB25709328B1B24D0675081313EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB25708E0CE6BA99A8E9C57D12EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAGDMR_drHP8XfaU+2P5Y0XAJGGUihg7=bc3Ncip18FJc2wWhGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Community,

2018-06-22 8:45 GMT+00:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>:

> Alan,
>
> Sorry to say this - but - these questions - need to be asked and answered
> in front of the community - this community has a right to the answers.
>
> Since you asked me for succinct questions though - I will ask them straight
>
> a.) What is the board doing about the fact that the organisation cannot -
> by the bylaws - elect directors - and without elected directors cannot get
> quorum to host another AGMM - which is a ....
> i.) When will we be getting a response to the outcome of the investigation
> promised to myself and the members of the NAP list as regards a particular
> sale of IP space
>


Hmmmm. Since when did the NAP list became a forum to discuss AFRINIC
matters that the CEO commits to?  A special list for a certain community?
Double standards?

Is he asking for investigation on allocated address space while he is
strongly opposed to the review policy proposal?

As discussed over and over, we are reaching a stage where review of
resources usage and investigation when required has become critical to
AFRINIC operation



>
> I can keep going - but I think that is sufficient for now.
>
> Alan - if asking questions is attacking people - then there is a problem -
> because if questions are asked by the members and there are no problems
> with the answers - there is nothing to feel attacked about.  If however -
> you are saying that members must ask their  questions in the dark and out
> of sight of this community - you are again asking me to stay away from the
> precepts of transparency - and I cannot - and will not - do that.
> .....
>
> The questions will continue - if not on the community list - then on the
> member list - if not on the members list - on other forums - I do not mind
> which - but - until AFRINIC is prepared to be the transparent organisation
> it claims to be - I will continue to ask the public questions and stand by
> every single one of them.
>
> Andrew
>
>
Arnaud
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Wed Jun 27 02:41:55 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 02:41:55 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
In-Reply-To: <CAGDMR_drHP8XfaU+2P5Y0XAJGGUihg7=bc3Ncip18FJc2wWhGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <20180622064340.BD5F53088092_B2C9A9CB@mx1.seacom.mu>
 <1529651406219.46419@seacom.mu>
 <HE1PR0301MB25709328B1B24D0675081313EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB25708E0CE6BA99A8E9C57D12EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>,
 <CAGDMR_drHP8XfaU+2P5Y0XAJGGUihg7=bc3Ncip18FJc2wWhGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR0301MB2570A6F0C7BDAD60DC74FB11EE480@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Arnaud,

To be frank - there are many lists that Afrinic is discussed on - NAP is one of them - because it contains a few hundred afrinic members - but it is not an "afrinic discussion list" in any way shape or form - it is an internet exchange list for members of a particular exchange - just happens that sometimes Afrinic matters come up there.

Quite frankly - I see it on many lists - people would rather discuss on other lists where they are not confronted with the vitriol and accusations and at times even blatant racism that occurs on this list - and they are free to do so.

This list is not exactly the most... welcoming to people who come here - the moment anyone posts a disagreement it gets personal and is full of ad hominem attacks and personalization, so, if we don't want segments of this community taking their issues off list - then this list needs to be a lot less hostile.

And yes - I still oppose the review policy - because I still believe that the RSA covers what it needs to - and we do not need anything more - nor do I see a point in anything more.  Especially something as what I still believe is wide open to attack.

The specifics of the case I referred to in your quoted email were about someone who was openly and publically spamming people with an offer in contravention of adopter policy and hence the RSA - we don't need the review policy to deal with such

Andrew

Liquid Telecommunications - Group Head Of IP Strategy
________________________________
From: Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 9:01:45 PM
To: Andrew Alston
Cc: Alan Barrett; community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns

Dear Community,

2018-06-22 8:45 GMT+00:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>:
Alan,

Sorry to say this - but - these questions - need to be asked and answered in front of the community - this community has a right to the answers.

Since you asked me for succinct questions though - I will ask them straight

a.) What is the board doing about the fact that the organisation cannot - by the bylaws - elect directors - and without elected directors cannot get quorum to host another AGMM - which is a ....
i.) When will we be getting a response to the outcome of the investigation promised to myself and the members of the NAP list as regards a particular sale of IP space


Hmmmm. Since when did the NAP list became a forum to discuss AFRINIC matters that the CEO commits to?  A special list for a certain community? Double standards?

Is he asking for investigation on allocated address space while he is strongly opposed to the review policy proposal?

As discussed over and over, we are reaching a stage where review of resources usage and investigation when required has become critical to AFRINIC operation



I can keep going - but I think that is sufficient for now.

Alan - if asking questions is attacking people - then there is a problem - because if questions are asked by the members and there are no problems with the answers - there is nothing to feel attacked about.  If however - you are saying that members must ask their  questions in the dark and out of sight of this community - you are again asking me to stay away from the precepts of transparency - and I cannot - and will not - do that.
.....

The questions will continue - if not on the community list - then on the member list - if not on the members list - on other forums - I do not mind which - but - until AFRINIC is prepared to be the transparent organisation it claims to be - I will continue to ask the public questions and stand by every single one of them.

Andrew


Arnaud

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From sander at steffann.nl  Wed Jun 27 11:29:38 2018
From: sander at steffann.nl (Sander Steffann)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 13:29:38 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC Investigation Committee Report
In-Reply-To: <1ABC2EBF-F25B-4531-BB3D-7F67B8C95759@gmail.com>
References: <1ABC2EBF-F25B-4531-BB3D-7F67B8C95759@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C8454F9C-3579-4755-A890-C43E9978EC11@steffann.nl>

Hello Christian,

> The GC provided the redacted version of the report on the 25th of June 2018 which is published at: [https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-investigation-redacted-report-20180621-en.pdf]

Very much appreciated. Thank you for publicly publishing what seems to be a version of the report with as far as I can see very minimal redactions. Good luck with implementing the recommendations.

Cheers,
Sander

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From madomey at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 27 16:50:12 2018
From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 16:50:12 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB2570A6F0C7BDAD60DC74FB11EE480@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <20180622064340.BD5F53088092_B2C9A9CB@mx1.seacom.mu>
 <1529651406219.46419@seacom.mu>
 <HE1PR0301MB25709328B1B24D0675081313EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB25708E0CE6BA99A8E9C57D12EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>,
 <CAGDMR_drHP8XfaU+2P5Y0XAJGGUihg7=bc3Ncip18FJc2wWhGQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <HE1PR0301MB2570A6F0C7BDAD60DC74FB11EE480@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <AM0PR0602MB3603F51BF4A4DF1D54CD0CFBB9480@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Andrew,

> at times even blatant racism that occurs on this list -

Your statement above must be backed up with facts.

This is a serious matter and I called on board to deal with such an accusation with immediate and utmost urgency!

Thanks



Marcus


Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>

________________________________
From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 2:41:55 AM
To: Arnaud AMELINA
Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns

Arnaud,

To be frank - there are many lists that Afrinic is discussed on - NAP is one of them - because it contains a few hundred afrinic members - but it is not an ?afrinic discussion list? in any way shape or form - it is an internet exchange list for members of a particular exchange - just happens that sometimes Afrinic matters come up there.

Quite frankly - I see it on many lists - people would rather discuss on other lists where they are not confronted with the vitriol and accusations and at times even blatant racism that occurs on this list - and they are free to do so.

This list is not exactly the most... welcoming to people who come here - the moment anyone posts a disagreement it gets personal and is full of ad hominem attacks and personalization, so, if we don?t want segments of this community taking their issues off list - then this list needs to be a lot less hostile.

And yes - I still oppose the review policy - because I still believe that the RSA covers what it needs to - and we do not need anything more - nor do I see a point in anything more.  Especially something as what I still believe is wide open to attack.

The specifics of the case I referred to in your quoted email were about someone who was openly and publically spamming people with an offer in contravention of adopter policy and hence the RSA - we don?t need the review policy to deal with such

Andrew

Liquid Telecommunications - Group Head Of IP Strategy
________________________________
From: Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 9:01:45 PM
To: Andrew Alston
Cc: Alan Barrett; community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns

Dear Community,

2018-06-22 8:45 GMT+00:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>:
Alan,

Sorry to say this - but - these questions - need to be asked and answered in front of the community - this community has a right to the answers.

Since you asked me for succinct questions though - I will ask them straight

a.) What is the board doing about the fact that the organisation cannot - by the bylaws - elect directors - and without elected directors cannot get quorum to host another AGMM - which is a ....
i.) When will we be getting a response to the outcome of the investigation promised to myself and the members of the NAP list as regards a particular sale of IP space


Hmmmm. Since when did the NAP list became a forum to discuss AFRINIC matters that the CEO commits to?  A special list for a certain community? Double standards?

Is he asking for investigation on allocated address space while he is strongly opposed to the review policy proposal?

As discussed over and over, we are reaching a stage where review of resources usage and investigation when required has become critical to AFRINIC operation



I can keep going - but I think that is sufficient for now.

Alan - if asking questions is attacking people - then there is a problem - because if questions are asked by the members and there are no problems with the answers - there is nothing to feel attacked about.  If however - you are saying that members must ask their  questions in the dark and out of sight of this community - you are again asking me to stay away from the precepts of transparency - and I cannot - and will not - do that.
.....

The questions will continue - if not on the community list - then on the member list - if not on the members list - on other forums - I do not mind which - but - until AFRINIC is prepared to be the transparent organisation it claims to be - I will continue to ask the public questions and stand by every single one of them.

Andrew


Arnaud

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From dabu.sifiso at yandex.com  Thu Jun 28 09:14:27 2018
From: dabu.sifiso at yandex.com (Dabu Sifiso)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 04:14:27 -0500
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <20180622064340.BD5F53088092_B2C9A9CB@mx1.seacom.mu>
 <1529651406219.46419@seacom.mu>
 <HE1PR0301MB25709328B1B24D0675081313EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB25708E0CE6BA99A8E9C57D12EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>,
 <CAGDMR_drHP8XfaU+2P5Y0XAJGGUihg7=bc3Ncip18FJc2wWhGQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <HE1PR0301MB2570A6F0C7BDAD60DC74FB11EE480@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603F51BF4A4DF1D54CD0CFBB9480@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <732321530177267@web46j.yandex.ru>


Mr. Adomey,

I agree with you! 

The board must take immediate action and apply restrictions. 
Immediate moderation or full permanent bans on people making racist attacks of any kind!

Especially if the people in question are or were in official positions within various AFRINIC roles (community functions, elected roles or even current or former staff) or have been recipients of sponsorship of AFRINIC in one form or another.
No second chance for those! 
They leave a permanent tarnish the honour given to them and insult the spirit of what this community is.

In my short time on these lists I have seen many attacks and references being made that are of either very openly racist nature or just with a heavy insinuating tone.
Some people even got moderated for a while as a consequence.
Going through the archives anyone can find even more of these aggravating remarks than what was said in the past 6 months or so..


Could we consider implementing some sort of rules of moderation, leaving no rooms for racist vitriol to be spread here:

Racist comments from current/former AFRINIC roles or recipients of sponsorship:
Immediate and permanent ban publicly announced by chairs, this due to the severity of such comments in relation to their standing within the community and how it reflects on all of us,

Racist comments from others:
Immediate 2 weeks ban on first offense publicly announced by chairs, only to be lifted after public apologies and 2 weeks has passed, permanent on second.

Insinuations:
Immediate moderation publicly announced by chairs, request for public clarification of said comments, if of racist nature apply the above measures, if comments were just of misunderstood, immediate lift of moderation publicly announced by chairs.

Any of the above decisions left open to be appealed through an appeal committee if the poster feels unfairly treated, with the committee's decision being made public and final.

It is sad as it would mean to forcibly moderate what should be a free thoughts environment to share ideas and experiences.
But we cannot control the mind of people and the thoughts they wish to spread out.
What we can do is force them leave the vitriol out of these lists, there are plenty of other platforms for them to spread out their ill conceived thoughts.


27.06.2018, 11:52, "Marcus K. G. Adomey" <madomey at hotmail.com>:
> Andrew,
>
>> at times even blatant racism that occurs on this list -
>
> Your statement above must be backed up with facts.
>
> This is a serious matter and I called on board to deal with such an accusation with immediate and utmost urgency!
>
> Thanks
>
> Marcus
>
> Get Outlook for Android
> ----------------------------------------
> From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 2:41:55 AM
> To: Arnaud AMELINA
> Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
>
> Arnaud,
>
> To be frank - there are many lists that Afrinic is discussed on - NAP is one of them - because it contains a few hundred afrinic members - but it is not an ?afrinic discussion list? in any way shape or form - it is an internet exchange list for members of a particular exchange - just happens that sometimes Afrinic matters come up there.
>
> Quite frankly - I see it on many lists - people would rather discuss on other lists where they are not confronted with the vitriol and accusations and at times even blatant racism that occurs on this list - and they are free to do so.
>
> This list is not exactly the most... welcoming to people who come here - the moment anyone posts a disagreement it gets personal and is full of ad hominem attacks and personalization, so, if we don?t want segments of this community taking their issues off list - then this list needs to be a lot less hostile.
>
> And yes - I still oppose the review policy - because I still believe that the RSA covers what it needs to - and we do not need anything more - nor do I see a point in anything more. ?Especially something as what I still believe is wide open to attack.
>
> The specifics of the case I referred to in your quoted email were about someone who was openly and publically spamming people with an offer in contravention of adopter policy and hence the RSA - we don?t need the review policy to deal with such
>
> Andrew
>
> Liquid Telecommunications - Group Head Of IP Strategy
> ----------------------------------------
> From: Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 9:01:45 PM
> To: Andrew Alston
> Cc: Alan Barrett; community-discuss at afrinic.net
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
>
> Dear Community,
>
> 2018-06-22 8:45 GMT+00:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>:
>> Alan,
>>
>> Sorry to say this - but - these questions - need to be asked and answered in front of the community - this community has a right to the answers.
>>
>> Since you asked me for succinct questions though - I will ask them straight
>>
>> a.) What is the board doing about the fact that the organisation cannot - by the bylaws - elect directors - and without elected directors cannot get quorum to host another AGMM - which is a ....
>> i.) When will we be getting a response to the outcome of the investigation promised to myself and the members of the NAP list as regards a particular sale of IP space
>
> Hmmmm. Since when did the NAP list became a forum to discuss AFRINIC matters that the CEO commits to?? A special list for a certain community? Double standards?
>
> Is he asking for investigation on allocated address space while he is strongly opposed to the review policy proposal?
>
> As discussed over and over, we are reaching a stage where review of resources usage and investigation when required has become critical to AFRINIC operation
>
>> I can keep going - but I think that is sufficient for now.
>>
>> Alan - if asking questions is attacking people - then there is a problem - because if questions are asked by the members and there are no problems with the answers - there is nothing to feel attacked about.? If however - you are saying that members must ask their? questions in the dark and out of sight of this community - you are again asking me to stay away from the precepts of transparency - and I cannot - and will not - do that.
>> .....
>>
>> The questions will continue - if not on the community list - then on the member list - if not on the members list - on other forums - I do not mind which - but - until AFRINIC is prepared to be the transparent organisation it claims to be - I will continue to ask the public questions and stand by every single one of them.
>>
>> Andrew
>
> Arnaud
>
> ,
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss





From ali at hussein.me.ke  Thu Jun 28 10:03:51 2018
From: ali at hussein.me.ke (Ali Hussein)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 13:03:51 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
In-Reply-To: <732321530177267@web46j.yandex.ru>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <20180622064340.BD5F53088092_B2C9A9CB@mx1.seacom.mu>
 <1529651406219.46419@seacom.mu>
 <HE1PR0301MB25709328B1B24D0675081313EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB25708E0CE6BA99A8E9C57D12EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAGDMR_drHP8XfaU+2P5Y0XAJGGUihg7=bc3Ncip18FJc2wWhGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570A6F0C7BDAD60DC74FB11EE480@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603F51BF4A4DF1D54CD0CFBB9480@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <732321530177267@web46j.yandex.ru>
Message-ID: <BCA78C45-5951-45AF-AE8C-1DC8B6010B9A@hussein.me.ke>

Dear community members

I may have missed some posts so I apologize in advance if I repeat myself. Here are my thoughts:-

As a community we MUST condemn anyone and publicly name and shame them if they commit beyond any reasonable doubt such acts as below:-

1. Racism/Tribalism
2. Sexual harassment 
3. Corruption 

All too often we skirt around such issues, excusing ourselves and giving people the benefit of doubt on these defining matters of our times. To give you context see link below to a story of how Netflix?s CEO fired the Chief Communications Officer for using the N-Word.

https://work.qz.com/1313072/read-netflix-ceo-reed-hastings-memo-about-the-firing-of-pr-chief-jonathan-friedland-for-using-the-n-word/

Ali Hussein
Principal
AHK & Associates
+254 0713 601113 

Twitter: @AliHKassim
Skype: abu-jomo
LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit."  ~ Aristotle


Sent from my iPad

> On 28 Jun 2018, at 12:14 PM, Dabu Sifiso <dabu.sifiso at yandex.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Mr. Adomey,
> 
> I agree with you! 
> 
> The board must take immediate action and apply restrictions. 
> Immediate moderation or full permanent bans on people making racist attacks of any kind!
> 
> Especially if the people in question are or were in official positions within various AFRINIC roles (community functions, elected roles or even current or former staff) or have been recipients of sponsorship of AFRINIC in one form or another.
> No second chance for those! 
> They leave a permanent tarnish the honour given to them and insult the spirit of what this community is.
> 
> In my short time on these lists I have seen many attacks and references being made that are of either very openly racist nature or just with a heavy insinuating tone.
> Some people even got moderated for a while as a consequence.
> Going through the archives anyone can find even more of these aggravating remarks than what was said in the past 6 months or so..
> 
> 
> Could we consider implementing some sort of rules of moderation, leaving no rooms for racist vitriol to be spread here:
> 
> Racist comments from current/former AFRINIC roles or recipients of sponsorship:
> Immediate and permanent ban publicly announced by chairs, this due to the severity of such comments in relation to their standing within the community and how it reflects on all of us,
> 
> Racist comments from others:
> Immediate 2 weeks ban on first offense publicly announced by chairs, only to be lifted after public apologies and 2 weeks has passed, permanent on second.
> 
> Insinuations:
> Immediate moderation publicly announced by chairs, request for public clarification of said comments, if of racist nature apply the above measures, if comments were just of misunderstood, immediate lift of moderation publicly announced by chairs.
> 
> Any of the above decisions left open to be appealed through an appeal committee if the poster feels unfairly treated, with the committee's decision being made public and final.
> 
> It is sad as it would mean to forcibly moderate what should be a free thoughts environment to share ideas and experiences.
> But we cannot control the mind of people and the thoughts they wish to spread out.
> What we can do is force them leave the vitriol out of these lists, there are plenty of other platforms for them to spread out their ill conceived thoughts.
> 
> 
> 27.06.2018, 11:52, "Marcus K. G. Adomey" <madomey at hotmail.com>:
>> Andrew,
>> 
>>> at times even blatant racism that occurs on this list -
>> 
>> Your statement above must be backed up with facts.
>> 
>> This is a serious matter and I called on board to deal with such an accusation with immediate and utmost urgency!
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Marcus
>> 
>> Get Outlook for Android
>> ----------------------------------------
>> From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 2:41:55 AM
>> To: Arnaud AMELINA
>> Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net
>> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
>> 
>> Arnaud,
>> 
>> To be frank - there are many lists that Afrinic is discussed on - NAP is one of them - because it contains a few hundred afrinic members - but it is not an ?afrinic discussion list? in any way shape or form - it is an internet exchange list for members of a particular exchange - just happens that sometimes Afrinic matters come up there.
>> 
>> Quite frankly - I see it on many lists - people would rather discuss on other lists where they are not confronted with the vitriol and accusations and at times even blatant racism that occurs on this list - and they are free to do so.
>> 
>> This list is not exactly the most... welcoming to people who come here - the moment anyone posts a disagreement it gets personal and is full of ad hominem attacks and personalization, so, if we don?t want segments of this community taking their issues off list - then this list needs to be a lot less hostile.
>> 
>> And yes - I still oppose the review policy - because I still believe that the RSA covers what it needs to - and we do not need anything more - nor do I see a point in anything more.  Especially something as what I still believe is wide open to attack.
>> 
>> The specifics of the case I referred to in your quoted email were about someone who was openly and publically spamming people with an offer in contravention of adopter policy and hence the RSA - we don?t need the review policy to deal with such
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>> Liquid Telecommunications - Group Head Of IP Strategy
>> ----------------------------------------
>> From: Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 9:01:45 PM
>> To: Andrew Alston
>> Cc: Alan Barrett; community-discuss at afrinic.net
>> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
>> 
>> Dear Community,
>> 
>> 2018-06-22 8:45 GMT+00:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>:
>>> Alan,
>>> 
>>> Sorry to say this - but - these questions - need to be asked and answered in front of the community - this community has a right to the answers.
>>> 
>>> Since you asked me for succinct questions though - I will ask them straight
>>> 
>>> a.) What is the board doing about the fact that the organisation cannot - by the bylaws - elect directors - and without elected directors cannot get quorum to host another AGMM - which is a ....
>>> i.) When will we be getting a response to the outcome of the investigation promised to myself and the members of the NAP list as regards a particular sale of IP space
>> 
>> Hmmmm. Since when did the NAP list became a forum to discuss AFRINIC matters that the CEO commits to?  A special list for a certain community? Double standards?
>> 
>> Is he asking for investigation on allocated address space while he is strongly opposed to the review policy proposal?
>> 
>> As discussed over and over, we are reaching a stage where review of resources usage and investigation when required has become critical to AFRINIC operation
>> 
>>> I can keep going - but I think that is sufficient for now.
>>> 
>>> Alan - if asking questions is attacking people - then there is a problem - because if questions are asked by the members and there are no problems with the answers - there is nothing to feel attacked about.  If however - you are saying that members must ask their  questions in the dark and out of sight of this community - you are again asking me to stay away from the precepts of transparency - and I cannot - and will not - do that.
>>> .....
>>> 
>>> The questions will continue - if not on the community list - then on the member list - if not on the members list - on other forums - I do not mind which - but - until AFRINIC is prepared to be the transparent organisation it claims to be - I will continue to ask the public questions and stand by every single one of them.
>>> 
>>> Andrew
>> 
>> Arnaud
>> 
>> ,
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
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From christianbope at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 16:27:35 2018
From: christianbope at gmail.com (Bope Christian)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 18:27:35 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Filling of the casual vacancies-Update
Message-ID: <20D1F215-5826-470E-BDAC-9BE356D63404@gmail.com>

[version fran?ais ci-dessous]

Dear AFRINIC members and community,

The AFRINIC Board has decided on a process for filling the vacant seats in the Board of Directors.  The process is published at <https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-director-selection-process-20180628-en.pdf <https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-director-selection-process-20180628-en.pdf>> and also included at the end of this message.

I will send another message no later than Monday 2 July with a link to a page with information about the candidates.

Best Regards,
Christian D. Bope, Ph.D
Chairman, AFRINIC Board


. . .

[fran?ais]

Chers membres et communaut? d'AFRINIC,

Le Conseil d'administration d'AFRINIC a d?cid? d'un processus pour pourvoir les si?ges vacants au sein du Conseil d'administration. Le processus est publi? (en anglais) ? <https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-director-selection-process-20180628-en.pdf <https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-director-selection-process-20180628-en.pdf>> et ?galement inclus ? la fin de ce message.

J'enverrai un autre message au plus tard le lundi 2 juillet avec un lien vers une page avec des informations sur les candidats.

Cordialement,
Christian D. Bope, Ph.D
Pr?sident du Conseil d?Administration d?AFRINIC


. . .

AFRINIC Director Selection
28 June 2018

Background

After the AFRINIC AGMM on 10 May 2018, four seats on the Board were vacant.  The Board decided to fill the vacant seats, in terms of article 13.14 of the AFRINIC Bylaws, and published a call for Expression of Interest (EOI) on 17 May 2018 [ https://afrinic.net/en/news/2395-filling-of-the-casual-vacancies <https://afrinic.net/en/news/2395-filling-of-the-casual-vacancies>]. The Board has received a total of 20 EOIs in response to the call.

The filling of the vacant positions on the Board will be effected in terms of the hereunder process.

Phase 1 - Public consultation

The Board shall provide the opportunity to get community?s feedback.

Those that meet the eligibility requirement as per section 13.10 of the AFRINIC bylaws, shall be identified from those who have submitted EOI.
Candidates will be required to provide a reference of two AFRINIC resource members in good standing supporting their EOI. A member in good standing cannot support more than one candidate irrespective of the region.
Candidates will be required to consent to their information being published.
Information about candidates will be published for public comment, for a one week period.

Phase 2 - Selection

The Board shall proceed to select the appointees from the pool of candidates, to fill the vacant positions on the Board. The following criteria will be considered:

Feedback received from the community (as per phase 1 of the process)
Section 13.12 of the AFRINIC Bylaw
A vote of the Board on each region seat will be conducted
This phase shall be concluded within 1 week after phase 1 ends
The appointees will be announced to the community.

[end]





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From silber.mike at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 16:39:28 2018
From: silber.mike at gmail.com (Mike Silber)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 11:39:28 -0500
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
In-Reply-To: <BCA78C45-5951-45AF-AE8C-1DC8B6010B9A@hussein.me.ke>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <20180622064340.BD5F53088092_B2C9A9CB@mx1.seacom.mu>
 <1529651406219.46419@seacom.mu>
 <HE1PR0301MB25709328B1B24D0675081313EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB25708E0CE6BA99A8E9C57D12EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAGDMR_drHP8XfaU+2P5Y0XAJGGUihg7=bc3Ncip18FJc2wWhGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570A6F0C7BDAD60DC74FB11EE480@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603F51BF4A4DF1D54CD0CFBB9480@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <732321530177267@web46j.yandex.ru>
 <BCA78C45-5951-45AF-AE8C-1DC8B6010B9A@hussein.me.ke>
Message-ID: <B933F5E0-CDEF-4979-95D4-F7E038474CD2@gmail.com>

Ali +1

I implore all to refrain from the ad hominem attacks (whether directed at an individual or a group).

Likewise vague aspersions and engaging in hyperbole increase tensions of a community already in a sensitive state. 

It detracts from our ability to engage in reasoned and mature discussion on real issues - and certainly ensures that we will not find solutions.

Mike

> On 28 Jun 2018, at 05:03, Ali Hussein <ali at hussein.me.ke> wrote:
> 
> Dear community members
> 
> I may have missed some posts so I apologize in advance if I repeat myself. Here are my thoughts:-
> 
> As a community we MUST condemn anyone and publicly name and shame them if they commit beyond any reasonable doubt such acts as below:-
> 
> 1. Racism/Tribalism
> 2. Sexual harassment 
> 3. Corruption 
> 
> All too often we skirt around such issues, excusing ourselves and giving people the benefit of doubt on these defining matters of our times. To give you context see link below to a story of how Netflix?s CEO fired the Chief Communications Officer for using the N-Word.
> 
> https://work.qz.com/1313072/read-netflix-ceo-reed-hastings-memo-about-the-firing-of-pr-chief-jonathan-friedland-for-using-the-n-word/ <https://work.qz.com/1313072/read-netflix-ceo-reed-hastings-memo-about-the-firing-of-pr-chief-jonathan-friedland-for-using-the-n-word/>
> 
> Ali Hussein
> Principal
> AHK & Associates
> +254 0713 601113 
> 

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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Thu Jun 28 18:54:18 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 18:54:18 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Filling of the casual vacancies-Update
In-Reply-To: <20D1F215-5826-470E-BDAC-9BE356D63404@gmail.com>
References: <20D1F215-5826-470E-BDAC-9BE356D63404@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8EAF90D1-D22C-4212-AF31-39CB0AA4111A@liquidtelecom.com>

Christian,

Can the board please explain how it plans to deal with the fact that appointed directors do not contribute towards quorum for an AGMM ? and we cannot elect directors outside of an AGMM ? as per the bylaws.  As such, while these appointees increase board capacity ? they do not solve the AGMM quorum problem.

Thanks

Andrew


From: Bope Christian <christianbope at gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, 28 June 2018 at 18:29
To: "community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Filling of the casual vacancies-Update

[version fran?ais ci-dessous]

Dear AFRINIC members and community,

The AFRINIC Board has decided on a process for filling the vacant seats in the Board of Directors.  The process is published at <https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-director-selection-process-20180628-en.pdf<https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-director-selection-process-20180628-en.pdf>> and also included at the end of this message.

I will send another message no later than Monday 2 July with a link to a page with information about the candidates.

Best Regards,
Christian D. Bope, Ph.D
Chairman, AFRINIC Board


. . .

[fran?ais]

Chers membres et communaut? d'AFRINIC,

Le Conseil d'administration d'AFRINIC a d?cid? d'un processus pour pourvoir les si?ges vacants au sein du Conseil d'administration. Le processus est publi? (en anglais) ? <https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-director-selection-process-20180628-en.pdf<https://afrinic.net/images/afrinic-director-selection-process-20180628-en.pdf>> et ?galement inclus ? la fin de ce message.

J'enverrai un autre message au plus tard le lundi 2 juillet avec un lien vers une page avec des informations sur les candidats.

Cordialement,
Christian D. Bope, Ph.D
Pr?sident du Conseil d?Administration d?AFRINIC


. . .

AFRINIC Director Selection
28 June 2018

Background

After the AFRINIC AGMM on 10 May 2018, four seats on the Board were vacant.  The Board decided to fill the vacant seats, in terms of article 13.14 of the AFRINIC Bylaws, and published a call for Expression of Interest (EOI) on 17 May 2018 [ https://afrinic.net/en/news/2395-filling-of-the-casual-vacancies<https://afrinic.net/en/news/2395-filling-of-the-casual-vacancies>]. The Board has received a total of 20 EOIs in response to the call.

The filling of the vacant positions on the Board will be effected in terms of the hereunder process.

Phase 1 - Public consultation

The Board shall provide the opportunity to get community?s feedback.


  *   Those that meet the eligibility requirement as per section 13.10 of the AFRINIC bylaws, shall be identified from those who have submitted EOI.
  *   Candidates will be required to provide a reference of two AFRINIC resource members in good standing supporting their EOI. A member in good standing cannot support more than one candidate irrespective of the region.
  *   Candidates will be required to consent to their information being published.
  *   Information about candidates will be published for public comment, for a one week period.

Phase 2 - Selection

The Board shall proceed to select the appointees from the pool of candidates, to fill the vacant positions on the Board. The following criteria will be considered:


  *   Feedback received from the community (as per phase 1 of the process)
  *   Section 13.12 of the AFRINIC Bylaw
  *   A vote of the Board on each region seat will be conducted
  *   This phase shall be concluded within 1 week after phase 1 ends
  *   The appointees will be announced to the community.

[end]






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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Thu Jun 28 19:04:29 2018
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 19:04:29 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR0602MB3603F51BF4A4DF1D54CD0CFBB9480@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <20180622064340.BD5F53088092_B2C9A9CB@mx1.seacom.mu>
 <1529651406219.46419@seacom.mu>
 <HE1PR0301MB25709328B1B24D0675081313EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB25708E0CE6BA99A8E9C57D12EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAGDMR_drHP8XfaU+2P5Y0XAJGGUihg7=bc3Ncip18FJc2wWhGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570A6F0C7BDAD60DC74FB11EE480@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603F51BF4A4DF1D54CD0CFBB9480@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <BE3D6ED2-84A8-4737-AC40-42264C122DAB@liquidtelecom.com>

Marcus,

I refer you to this as one example which was seen on the RPD list ? and similar has been seen on this list ? I?ll go and dig it all out if need be ? but my statements stand across all lists:

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2018/008011.html

Because that email then refers to an HTML attachment ? which is very difficult to read ? the rough translation of the last paragraph of that email (thanks google translate) said the following:

If we want to develop, we real Africans must rather fight against the yoke of the companies you mentioned. And I think that for all my brothers supporting your remarks, I could only remember those words of SAMORA MACHEL. "The day you hear the whites talking about me well, that day, do not share your secrets with me anymore, because that would mean that I would have betrayed you already."

That ? is what I am referring to.

Andrew


From: "Marcus K. G. Adomey" <madomey at hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, 27 June 2018 at 18:50
To: Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com>, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: "community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns

Andrew,
> at times even blatant racism that occurs on this list -
Your statement above must be backed up with facts.
This is a serious matter and I called on board to deal with such an accusation with immediate and utmost urgency!
Thanks


Marcus

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>

________________________________
From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 2:41:55 AM
To: Arnaud AMELINA
Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns

Arnaud,

To be frank - there are many lists that Afrinic is discussed on - NAP is one of them - because it contains a few hundred afrinic members - but it is not an ?afrinic discussion list? in any way shape or form - it is an internet exchange list for members of a particular exchange - just happens that sometimes Afrinic matters come up there.

Quite frankly - I see it on many lists - people would rather discuss on other lists where they are not confronted with the vitriol and accusations and at times even blatant racism that occurs on this list - and they are free to do so.

This list is not exactly the most... welcoming to people who come here - the moment anyone posts a disagreement it gets personal and is full of ad hominem attacks and personalization, so, if we don?t want segments of this community taking their issues off list - then this list needs to be a lot less hostile.

And yes - I still oppose the review policy - because I still believe that the RSA covers what it needs to - and we do not need anything more - nor do I see a point in anything more.  Especially something as what I still believe is wide open to attack.

The specifics of the case I referred to in your quoted email were about someone who was openly and publically spamming people with an offer in contravention of adopter policy and hence the RSA - we don?t need the review policy to deal with such

Andrew

Liquid Telecommunications - Group Head Of IP Strategy
________________________________
From: Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 9:01:45 PM
To: Andrew Alston
Cc: Alan Barrett; community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns

Dear Community,

2018-06-22 8:45 GMT+00:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>:
Alan,

Sorry to say this - but - these questions - need to be asked and answered in front of the community - this community has a right to the answers.

Since you asked me for succinct questions though - I will ask them straight

a.) What is the board doing about the fact that the organisation cannot - by the bylaws - elect directors - and without elected directors cannot get quorum to host another AGMM - which is a ....
i.) When will we be getting a response to the outcome of the investigation promised to myself and the members of the NAP list as regards a particular sale of IP space


Hmmmm. Since when did the NAP list became a forum to discuss AFRINIC matters that the CEO commits to?  A special list for a certain community? Double standards?

Is he asking for investigation on allocated address space while he is strongly opposed to the review policy proposal?

As discussed over and over, we are reaching a stage where review of resources usage and investigation when required has become critical to AFRINIC operation



I can keep going - but I think that is sufficient for now.

Alan - if asking questions is attacking people - then there is a problem - because if questions are asked by the members and there are no problems with the answers - there is nothing to feel attacked about.  If however - you are saying that members must ask their  questions in the dark and out of sight of this community - you are again asking me to stay away from the precepts of transparency - and I cannot - and will not - do that.
.....

The questions will continue - if not on the community list - then on the member list - if not on the members list - on other forums - I do not mind which - but - until AFRINIC is prepared to be the transparent organisation it claims to be - I will continue to ask the public questions and stand by every single one of them.

Andrew


Arnaud

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From silber.mike at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 19:26:10 2018
From: silber.mike at gmail.com (Mike Silber)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 14:26:10 -0500
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
In-Reply-To: <BE3D6ED2-84A8-4737-AC40-42264C122DAB@liquidtelecom.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <20180622064340.BD5F53088092_B2C9A9CB@mx1.seacom.mu>
 <1529651406219.46419@seacom.mu>
 <HE1PR0301MB25709328B1B24D0675081313EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB25708E0CE6BA99A8E9C57D12EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAGDMR_drHP8XfaU+2P5Y0XAJGGUihg7=bc3Ncip18FJc2wWhGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570A6F0C7BDAD60DC74FB11EE480@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <AM0PR0602MB3603F51BF4A4DF1D54CD0CFBB9480@AM0PR0602MB3603.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <BE3D6ED2-84A8-4737-AC40-42264C122DAB@liquidtelecom.com>
Message-ID: <1068A9F9-04C8-4275-868B-ED66F3C0C95E@gmail.com>

Andrew

Your comment below is noted (and I have no doubt you can find dozens more examples). I am sure you feel this justified your initial remark.

Marcus? affront is also noted and I think it is likewise justified.

I do not think that this is the best place to develop definitions of racism.

My request is that you please withdraw your initial remark and let us move forward.

There are extreme examples of uncivil behaviour on this list by many people. In the historical context of this continent, I think we must be very circumspect in ascribing racist motivations to uncivil behaviour.

Thanks

Mike 

> On 28 Jun 2018, at 14:04, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> 
> Marcus,
>  
> I refer you to this as one example which was seen on the RPD list ? and similar has been seen on this list ? I?ll go and dig it all out if need be ? but my statements stand across all lists:
>  
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2018/008011.html <https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2018/008011.html>
>  
> Because that email then refers to an HTML attachment ? which is very difficult to read ? the rough translation of the last paragraph of that email (thanks google translate) said the following:
>  
> If we want to develop, we real Africans must rather fight against the yoke of the companies you mentioned. And I think that for all my brothers supporting your remarks, I could only remember those words of SAMORA MACHEL. "The day you hear the whites talking about me well, that day, do not share your secrets with me anymore, because that would mean that I would have betrayed you already."
>  
> That ? is what I am referring to.
>  
> Andrew
>  
>  
> From: "Marcus K. G. Adomey" <madomey at hotmail.com>
> Date: Wednesday, 27 June 2018 at 18:50
> To: Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com>, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> Cc: "community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
>  
> Andrew,
> 
> > at times even blatant racism that occurs on this list -
> 
> Your statement above must be backed up with facts.
> 
> This is a serious matter and I called on board to deal with such an accusation with immediate and utmost urgency!
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>  
> From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 2:41:55 AM
> To: Arnaud AMELINA
> Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
>  
> Arnaud,
>  
> To be frank - there are many lists that Afrinic is discussed on - NAP is one of them - because it contains a few hundred afrinic members - but it is not an ?afrinic discussion list? in any way shape or form - it is an internet exchange list for members of a particular exchange - just happens that sometimes Afrinic matters come up there.
>  
> Quite frankly - I see it on many lists - people would rather discuss on other lists where they are not confronted with the vitriol and accusations and at times even blatant racism that occurs on this list - and they are free to do so.
>  
> This list is not exactly the most... welcoming to people who come here - the moment anyone posts a disagreement it gets personal and is full of ad hominem attacks and personalization, so, if we don?t want segments of this community taking their issues off list - then this list needs to be a lot less hostile.
>  
> And yes - I still oppose the review policy - because I still believe that the RSA covers what it needs to - and we do not need anything more - nor do I see a point in anything more.  Especially something as what I still believe is wide open to attack.
>  
> The specifics of the case I referred to in your quoted email were about someone who was openly and publically spamming people with an offer in contravention of adopter policy and hence the RSA - we don?t need the review policy to deal with such
>  
> Andrew 
>  
> Liquid Telecommunications - Group Head Of IP Strategy
> From: Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 9:01:45 PM
> To: Andrew Alston
> Cc: Alan Barrett; community-discuss at afrinic.net
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
>  
> Dear Community, 
>  
> 2018-06-22 8:45 GMT+00:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>:
>> Alan,
>> 
>> Sorry to say this - but - these questions - need to be asked and answered in front of the community - this community has a right to the answers.
>> 
>> Since you asked me for succinct questions though - I will ask them straight
>> 
>> a.) What is the board doing about the fact that the organisation cannot - by the bylaws - elect directors - and without elected directors cannot get quorum to host another AGMM - which is a ....
>> i.) When will we be getting a response to the outcome of the investigation promised to myself and the members of the NAP list as regards a particular sale of IP space
>  
>  
> Hmmmm. Since when did the NAP list became a forum to discuss AFRINIC matters that the CEO commits to?  A special list for a certain community? Double standards?
>  
> Is he asking for investigation on allocated address space while he is strongly opposed to the review policy proposal? 
>  
> As discussed over and over, we are reaching a stage where review of resources usage and investigation when required has become critical to AFRINIC operation
>      
>  
>> 
>> I can keep going - but I think that is sufficient for now.  
>> 
>> Alan - if asking questions is attacking people - then there is a problem - because if questions are asked by the members and there are no problems with the answers - there is nothing to feel attacked about.  If however - you are saying that members must ask their  questions in the dark and out of sight of this community - you are again asking me to stay away from the precepts of transparency - and I cannot - and will not - do that.
>> .....
>> 
>> The questions will continue - if not on the community list - then on the member list - if not on the members list - on other forums - I do not mind which - but - until AFRINIC is prepared to be the transparent organisation it claims to be - I will continue to ask the public questions and stand by every single one of them.
>> 
>> Andrew
>>  
>  
> Arnaud
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss

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From christianbope at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 09:51:08 2018
From: christianbope at gmail.com (Bope Christian)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 11:51:08 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Board response to community questions
Message-ID: <0AF3F2EF-3816-44A4-9CEB-261BE2A0A1F7@gmail.com>

Dear Andrew and Community,

In your message on 22 June 2018 <https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2018-June/002482.html <https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2018-June/002482.html>>, you asked several questions.  Here is the reply from the Board to questions a, e, and f.  The CEO has agreed to respond to the other questions by the end of next week.

QUESTION A: AGMM Quorum

Question:
What is the board doing about the fact that the organisation cannot - by the bylaws - elect directors - and without elected directors cannot get a quorum to host another AGMM - which is a statutory requirement under Mauritian law

Response:

The Board started considering this issue during a meeting on 12 May 2018.  We believe that the situation is manageable.  One possibility is that the court could be approached in terms of article 118 of the Companies Act of Mauritius, to allow an AGMM to be held under modified quorum requirements.  The Board will continue to consider the issue and will communicate more details in due course.

QUESTION E: Code of Corporate Governance

Question:
Why does the organisation refuse to bind itself to compliance with the Mauritian code of corporate governance

Response:

The Code of Corporate Governance For Mauritius applies to public sector companies, and to companies that fit the definition of ?Public Interest Companies?.  AFRINIC does not fit the definition and is not required to comply.  Although AFRINIC is not required to comply, AFRINIC attempts to comply with all eight of the compulsory principles in the Code.  The Board recognises that the additional optional guidelines in the code contain many ideas for possible improvement.

QUESTION F: Competition Commission

Question:
What is the status update of the competitions tribunal enquiry

Response:

The CEO and legal Adviser have met with the Competition Commission to discuss the inquiry.  We are waiting for approval from the Competition Commission before a report can be released.

Best Regards,
Christian D. Bope, PhD
Chairman, AFRINIC Board

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From amelnaud at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 14:52:02 2018
From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 14:52:02 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0301MB2570A6F0C7BDAD60DC74FB11EE480@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0301MB2570BA1327F2ECE950D95013EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <458041529055333@web28j.yandex.ru>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F11294B9907F82B5FAA8EE7C0@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <F4343C85-AF01-41C6-912B-6FB453517E40@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB257023AF1DD8DA9B099686B1EE700@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAP6btyC=gE4rJ+EeZGem0-8DkfvNa_isCDV+3-F-4PW2=r9kEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <C6C8E81F-EC7A-4D16-A400-4999C49BDD5B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAMitOTi0+m_moHEtpoSA2NN+Y4yBLjsUcOneafte-HkjHG3Dqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjmBy3897Et9XN_CSAWLht=Fj7f2WJAgxDgvGLRPSqvFxQ0YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570F0827F8537567A9825B8EE770@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621025823.0b86d350@elandnews.com>
 <1b4401d4094c$d0155350$703ff9f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <6.2.5.6.2.20180621044438.0b95c050@elandnews.com>
 <1c4f01d40962$3c2d8c50$b488a4f0$@enetworks.co.za>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570BC196D74AD550CA8FF1BEE760@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <20180622064340.BD5F53088092_B2C9A9CB@mx1.seacom.mu>
 <1529651406219.46419@seacom.mu>
 <HE1PR0301MB25709328B1B24D0675081313EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <813FDD1D-8118-4428-B5B8-2BE2AE647667@afrinic.net>
 <HE1PR0301MB25708E0CE6BA99A8E9C57D12EE750@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAGDMR_drHP8XfaU+2P5Y0XAJGGUihg7=bc3Ncip18FJc2wWhGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1PR0301MB2570A6F0C7BDAD60DC74FB11EE480@HE1PR0301MB2570.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAGDMR_c0ztiFgtHLmfdRfY+e8axACfkQBLUj1kGDStkpvXJeMg@mail.gmail.com>

Andrew,

Le mer. 27 juin 2018 02:42, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
a ?crit :

> Arnaud,
>
> To be frank - there are many lists that Afrinic is discussed on - NAP is
> one of them - because it contains a few hundred afrinic members - but it is
> not an ?afrinic discussion list? in any way shape or form - it is an
> internet exchange list for members of a particular exchange - just happens
> that sometimes Afrinic matters come up there.
>
> Quite frankly - I see it on many lists - people would rather discuss on
> other lists where they are not confronted with the vitriol and accusations
> and at times even blatant racism that occurs on this list - and they are
> free to do so.
>
> This list is not exactly the most... welcoming to people who come here -
> the moment anyone posts a disagreement it gets personal and is full of ad
> hominem attacks and personalization, so, if we don?t want segments of this
> community taking their issues off list - then this list needs to be a lot
> less hostile.
>


I know there are many lists where things are discussed including Afrinic
matters, but my point was  CEO committing for actions from topic discussed
out of afrinic  official discussion fora. Is CEO doing same on all lists ?

And thanks for raising issues with what have been happening on lists:
Participants behaviors and discussions  tempo, personal attacks, etc...

It is obvious that  you play a big role in the disorders  and  disfunction
affecting all Afrinic public lists, chasing people away,  affecting the
community  reputation. The solution can not be in  sub- communities and
parallel  lists.
I expect a better behavior from someone working for a respectable African
 operator and who has served on the Afrinic BoD.

"Be the change you want to see" ?



> And yes - I still oppose the review policy - because I still believe that
> the RSA covers what it needs to - and we do not need anything more - nor do
> I see a point in anything more.  Especially something as what I still
> believe is wide open to attack.
>
> The specifics of the case I referred to in your quoted email were about
> someone who was openly and publically spamming people with an offer in
> contravention of adopter policy and hence the RSA - we don?t need the
> review policy to deal with such
>


If we were to follow  you, this community would not have adopted the "lame
delegation " proposal, which is a review.
RSA does not describe  how review and investigation  should be conducted,
nor does the current  allocation policies. ..
Time is coming for this community to adopt what your colleague called
"sensible  policies". It is the mandatory way  to the Afrinic future.

Arnaud



> Liquid Telecommunications - Group Head Of IP Strategy
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 26, 2018 9:01:45 PM
> *To:* Andrew Alston
> *Cc:* Alan Barrett; community-discuss at afrinic.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Raising concerns
>
> Dear Community,
>
> 2018-06-22 8:45 GMT+00:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>:
>
>> Alan,
>>
>> Sorry to say this - but - these questions - need to be asked and answered
>> in front of the community - this community has a right to the answers.
>>
>> Since you asked me for succinct questions though - I will ask them
>> straight
>>
>> a.) What is the board doing about the fact that the organisation cannot -
>> by the bylaws - elect directors - and without elected directors cannot get
>> quorum to host another AGMM - which is a ....
>> i.) When will we be getting a response to the outcome of the
>> investigation promised to myself and the members of the NAP list as regards
>> a particular sale of IP space
>>
>
>
> Hmmmm. Since when did the NAP list became a forum to discuss AFRINIC
> matters that the CEO commits to?  A special list for a certain community?
> Double standards?
>
> Is he asking for investigation on allocated address space while he is
> strongly opposed to the review policy proposal?
>
> As discussed over and over, we are reaching a stage where review of
> resources usage and investigation when required has become critical to
> AFRINIC operation
>
>
>
>>
>> I can keep going - but I think that is sufficient for now.
>>
>> Alan - if asking questions is attacking people - then there is a problem
>> - because if questions are asked by the members and there are no problems
>> with the answers - there is nothing to feel attacked about.  If however -
>> you are saying that members must ask their  questions in the dark and out
>> of sight of this community - you are again asking me to stay away from the
>> precepts of transparency - and I cannot - and will not - do that.
>> .....
>>
>> The questions will continue - if not on the community list - then on the
>> member list - if not on the members list - on other forums - I do not mind
>> which - but - until AFRINIC is prepared to be the transparent organisation
>> it claims to be - I will continue to ask the public questions and stand by
>> every single one of them.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
> Arnaud
>
>
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From Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net  Fri Jun 29 20:10:55 2018
From: Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net (Omo Oaiya)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 21:10:55 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Consultation on the future structure of the ASO
Message-ID: <734FFF45-21CC-4B9E-B070-13CA0C56E82E@wacren.net>

Dear AfriNIC Community

Following the ASO review consultation and the presentation by the CEO at the AIS 2018 meeting in Dakar,  AFRINIC?s representatives on the ASO AC/NRO NC have been asked to lead a community process to develop AFRINIC?s response to the ASO review. 

The feedback on the ASO Review report outlined 18 recommendations which the NRO has resolved to accept. The first 17 recommendations are expected to be non-controversial and straightforward to implement by the NRO Secretariat, or the ASO Address Council (ASO AC).  


The 18th recommendation and the reason for this process, is that ?The NRO should initiate a public consultation, involving the five RIR communities, to determine the future structure of the ASO.?                                                      

We invite you all to discuss and comment in the community-discuss mailing list.  We hope to provide a report by the end of July 2018 or mid-August at the latest.

Thank you.

Fiona Asonga, Noah Maina and Omo Oaiya


Background:

Various announcements, presentations, calls for comments, etc.: https://www.nro.net/about-the-nro/aso-independent-review-2017/
The ASO Review report : https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/aso-review-final- 03aug17.pdf
Questions posed by the NRO EC: https://www.nro.net/aso-review-consultation-2018/
CEO presentation at the AIS 2018 meeting: https://www.internetsummit.africa/components/com_afmeeting/speakers/4/20180511_AIS18_ASO_Review_Consultation.pdf