From mje at posix.co.za  Tue May  2 11:42:22 2017
From: mje at posix.co.za (Mark Elkins)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 13:42:22 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] ICANN 59 (Joburg) Tech talk panel on DNSSEC
	Deployment Challenges
Message-ID: <6be9be63-8a65-e1d4-12e9-b96827f4c470@posix.co.za>

ICANN-59 will be held in Johannesburg at the Sandton convention centre
from 26-29 June, 2017.

One of the technical days is shared between DNSSEC (morning) and ccTLD
Technical Talks (afternoon).

We (the DNSSEC Workshop Program Committee) are looking for a few people
that would like to participate in a panel discussion on ?DNSSEC
Deployment Challenges? on the African Continent.

Officially-

The program committee is seeking input from those that are interested in
implementation of DNSSEC but have general or particular concerns with
DNSSEC.  In particular, we are seeking input from individuals that would
be willing to participate in a panel that would discuss questions of the
nature:

? What are your most significant concerns with DNSSEC, e.g.,
implementation, operation or something else?

? What do you expect DNSSEC to do for you and what doesn't it do?

? What do you see as the most important trade-offs with respect to doing
or not doing DNSSEC?

We are interested in presentations related to any aspect of DNSSEC such
as zone signing, DNS response validation, applications use of DNSSEC,
registry/registrar DNSSEC activities, etc.


So, I'm looking for a handful of volunteers (anyone from Africa). Talks
would be no longer than ten minutes long. You get a free lunch :-)

-- 
Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za

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From b.schombe at gmail.com  Tue May  2 13:15:01 2017
From: b.schombe at gmail.com (Baudouin SCHOMBE)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 15:15:01 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [AfrICANN-discuss] ICANN 59 (Joburg) Tech
 talk panel on DNSSEC Deployment Challenges
In-Reply-To: <6be9be63-8a65-e1d4-12e9-b96827f4c470@posix.co.za>
References: <6be9be63-8a65-e1d4-12e9-b96827f4c470@posix.co.za>
Message-ID: <CAHj_20jeqgBpRD-QyLaZQ3EuzdobrKPXYqY+-X=KLTnu08tA3A@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Mark,

I am personally interested for completing my capacity after Africa DNS
study.


*SCHOMBE BAUDOUIN*

*SECRETAIRE EXECUTIF FGI-IGF RDC*


*COORDINATION NATIONALE CAFECICANN/AFRALO Member*
*ISOC Member*
T?l?phone mobile:+243998983491/+243813684512
email                  : b.schombe at gmail.com
skype                 : b.schombe
blog                    : http://akimambo.unblog.fr




2017-05-02 13:42 GMT+02:00 Mark Elkins <mje at posix.co.za>:

> ICANN-59 will be held in Johannesburg at the Sandton convention centre
> from 26-29 June, 2017.
>
> One of the technical days is shared between DNSSEC (morning) and ccTLD
> Technical Talks (afternoon).
>
> We (the DNSSEC Workshop Program Committee) are looking for a few people
> that would like to participate in a panel discussion on ?DNSSEC
> Deployment Challenges? on the African Continent.
>
> Officially-
>
> The program committee is seeking input from those that are interested in
> implementation of DNSSEC but have general or particular concerns with
> DNSSEC.  In particular, we are seeking input from individuals that would be
> willing to participate in a panel that would discuss questions of the
> nature:
>
> ? What are your most significant concerns with DNSSEC, e.g.,
> implementation, operation or something else?
>
> ? What do you expect DNSSEC to do for you and what doesn't it do?
>
> ? What do you see as the most important trade-offs with respect to doing
> or not doing DNSSEC?
>
> We are interested in presentations related to any aspect of DNSSEC such as
> zone signing, DNS response validation, applications use of DNSSEC,
> registry/registrar DNSSEC activities, etc.
>
> So, I'm looking for a handful of volunteers (anyone from Africa). Talks
> would be no longer than ten minutes long. You get a free lunch :-)
>
> --
> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africamje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590 <+27%2012%20807%200590>  Cell: +27.826010496 <+27%2082%20601%200496>
> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AfrICANN mailing list
> AfrICANN at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/africann
>
>
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From mazandou2 at gmail.com  Tue May  2 19:31:15 2017
From: mazandou2 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Tr=C3=A9sor_Mazandou?=)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 21:31:15 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [AfrICANN-discuss] ICANN 59 (Joburg) Tech
 talk panel on DNSSEC Deployment Challenges
In-Reply-To: <CABAWsrCUYw9N_UxisofYpAjpFkr=mZ6k_kmyBRKJhsq1SwiwCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6be9be63-8a65-e1d4-12e9-b96827f4c470@posix.co.za>
 <CABAWsrCUYw9N_UxisofYpAjpFkr=mZ6k_kmyBRKJhsq1SwiwCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABAWsrDERfk1D_EPNPqmBPrfmTJZeFxPvo_A7m-aGu5=VCR5GA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mark,

I am personally interested for completing my capacity after Africa DNS
study.
Best  regards.

MAZANDOU Tr?sor Xavier
ICANN/ AFRALO/AFRINIC MEMBER
T?l: +242064135965 - +243816469479
Skype: trez_maz

Le 2 mai 2017 12:44, "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za> a ?crit :

ICANN-59 will be held in Johannesburg at the Sandton convention centre from
26-29 June, 2017.

One of the technical days is shared between DNSSEC (morning) and ccTLD
Technical Talks (afternoon).

We (the DNSSEC Workshop Program Committee) are looking for a few people
that would like to participate in a panel discussion on ?DNSSEC Deployment
Challenges? on the African Continent.

Officially-

The program committee is seeking input from those that are interested in
implementation of DNSSEC but have general or particular concerns with
DNSSEC.  In particular, we are seeking input from individuals that would be
willing to participate in a panel that would discuss questions of the
nature:

? What are your most significant concerns with DNSSEC, e.g.,
implementation, operation or something else?

? What do you expect DNSSEC to do for you and what doesn't it do?

? What do you see as the most important trade-offs with respect to doing or
not doing DNSSEC?

We are interested in presentations related to any aspect of DNSSEC such as
zone signing, DNS response validation, applications use of DNSSEC,
registry/registrar DNSSEC activities, etc.

So, I'm looking for a handful of volunteers (anyone from Africa). Talks
would be no longer than ten minutes long. You get a free lunch :-)

-- 
Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africamje at posix.co.za
   Tel: +27.128070590 <+27%2012%20807%200590>  Cell: +27.826010496
<+27%2082%20601%200496>
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za


_______________________________________________
AfrICANN mailing list
AfrICANN at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/africann
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From christian.bope at unikin.ac.cd  Fri May  5 03:06:26 2017
From: christian.bope at unikin.ac.cd (Christian Bope)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 11:06:26 +0800
Subject: [Community-Discuss] My nomination for AfriNIC Board 2017 election
 pending acknowledgment after 15 days
Message-ID: <CAKc3JCUbMR=R7pc9t+JE=BHsgYuNvkPQou8KxJwXBhOhnO92KQ@mail.gmail.com>

*[Speaking as nominee for AfriNIC Board election 2017 central Africa seat4]*

Dear Nomcom Chair,


I have nominated myself for AfriNIC Board election 2017 on *21 April 2017*
respecting the process published in   http://www.afrinic.net/en/libr
ary/news/2035-afrinic-2017-board-nomination after *15 days* I have *NOT*
received any acknowledgment of my nomination from *Nomcom* neither my too
*seconder* did *NOT* received any mail from *Nomcom*.
The probability might be high that I am not the only nominee facing this
problem.

For the sake record and substantiate my concern which might be shared by
other nominees, I would like bring to your attention and members of the
community the following event.


*1.*  On *20 April 2017* I have tried to proceed [*IP: 155.69.200.X* ] with
my self-nomination as Board nominee 2017 via the link provided
https://registration.afrinic.net/events/node/3. Unfortunately the link was
not working  the problem was forwarded to *AfriNIC help-desk* and *Noncom*
[Please ref the image]

?
?
*2.* On *21 April 2017*, I have received an official apology from the
Nomcom Chair concerning the nomination link problem which was fixed.


?Furthermore, the message related to Board nomination link problem fixed
was sent to the entire community on *21 April 2017* [image].



?* 3. *After the Board link problem was fixed, I have successfully
completed on *21 April 2017 *and received the acknowledgement from the
application. [image]


?*4.* It has been *8 day* *(28 April 2017)* since I have written another
email to Nomcom asking for update or at least an acknowledgment of my
nomination, the Nomcom have promise to get back to me asp (now 8 days).
[image]


?
*5.* Today I have been waiting for *15 days* to get at least the
acknowledgement of my nomination from Nomcom.


In summary, I do understand the Nomcom will contact me and my seconders
asap since the list of the candidate should be published on *12 may 2017*.

Following all the evidence presented, considering there was technical
problem on the setting up the Board link which I have raised on *20 April
2017* and was reported fixed on *21 April 2017*,
One might understand that the reported technical Board nomination link
problem ( http://www.afrinic.net/en/library/news/2035-afrinic-2017-
board-nomination ) could be the reason of the application did not delivered
automatic acknowledge to message to the nominee after the application was
submitted.

With Best Regards,
*Christian D. Bope*
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From sergekbk at gmail.com  Fri May  5 13:01:57 2017
From: sergekbk at gmail.com (serge ilunga)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 14:01:57 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [Nomcom2017] My Nomination for BOD Elections
In-Reply-To: <1651572661.97764.1493385971775.JavaMail.zimbra@forum.org.ng>
References: <CAHm7s1RZ_imS395oTTcZf0NuWByYqumV8etG2hdEjAGWajKurw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1651572661.97764.1493385971775.JavaMail.zimbra@forum.org.ng>
Message-ID: <CAHm7s1SiTBgX6z4YZhjfFckmEE1vnb_7uA1q0O4wPj=+F0+2bQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Chair,

I hope  that this finds you in good shape.
As escalated  in the below mail sent last Friday April 28th, my nomination
for BOD election was done on  April 21st but till now didn't receive any
acknowledgement.
I'm a bit concerned 1 week before the end of the application review (May
12th) , i'm not sure that it has been processed or not.
Can i expect a feedback from you on this matter?


Kind Regards.

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Wale Adedokun <wale at forum.org.ng> wrote:

> Dear Serge,
> This is to acknowledge your mail below. NomCom will review and get back to
> your asap.
>
> regards
>
> NomCom2017
>
>
> Wale Adedokun PhD
> Event Coordinator
> Nigeria Network Operators Group(ngNOG)
> 2348037035811
> wale at forum.org.ng
>
>
> ----- serge ilunga <sergekbk at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> Dear Nomcom,
>
> I am a bit concerned as since i have submitted my application last friday
> i am not yet cantacted back by any nomcom members and the members
> supporting my nomination have not yet received any mail to confirma my
> nomination.
>
> Attached is the screenshot i've taken.
>
> Looking forward to hear from you.
>
> --
> *Serge ILUNGA KABWIKA*
> *Skype: sergekbk*
> *Cell: +243814443160 <0814%20443%20160>*
>
> >
>
>
>


-- 
*Serge ILUNGA KABWIKA*
*Skype: sergekbk*
*Cell: +243814443160*
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From madomey at hotmail.com  Tue May  9 21:48:42 2017
From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 21:48:42 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy discussed at
	RIPE
Message-ID: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Colleagues.

You might want to see the presentation of the controversial draft anti-shutdown policy (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent RIPE meeting.  I found the questions/comments from the RIPE community similar to that shared by many on the RPD, mostly about the inappropriateness of such policy in our region? or any other for that matter.  Enjoy watching it.

https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/
[https://ripe74.ripe.net/wp-content/themes/fluida-ripe-child/images/fb-image.png]<https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>

Archives &#8211; RIPE 74<https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
ripe74.ripe.net



Thanks



Marcus
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Wed May 10 07:34:14 2017
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 07:34:14 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at	RIPE
In-Reply-To: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Thanks Marcus,

Just some feedback for the community.

It's been a great experience here at RIPE and some of the ideas given and the extensive discussions following the presentation referred to by Marcus have been both useful and informative.

Draft 2 will be submitted shortly very much in line with what I presented in that presentation - and before the 7 day deadline as per the PDP so we can discuss on that basis.

Following the meeting in Nairobi, I suspect we will then be gathering still further input and further drafts will follow, if there is no consensus found on the floor for the draft 2 that will be submitted.

I think for myself, the most important thing I have seen at RIPE so far, is the huge willingness by people from every walk of life to engage in dialog and discussion over this, and it was heartening to see both my own positions and the positions of those I was discussing with shift as explanations were given and questions were asked and answered.  Since giving that presentation I have barely had a minute to think as people approached me to talk this through - and I really hope to see such engagement in Nairobi, because it truly showed the benefit of a multi stakeholder approach where open dialog and communication can happen, even in the absence of agreement and in the face of controversial material where people hold strong and emotive views.

I look forward to the discussions on the floor of the PDP and engaging with all of you to hear your thoughts and views and finding the right solution to the issue.

Thanks

Andrew

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
________________________________
From: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:48:42 PM
To: rpd at afrinic.net; community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy discussed at RIPE


Dear Colleagues.

You might want to see the presentation of the controversial draft anti-shutdown policy (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent RIPE meeting.  I found the questions/comments from the RIPE community similar to that shared by many on the RPD, mostly about the inappropriateness of such policy in our region? or any other for that matter.  Enjoy watching it.

https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/
[https://ripe74.ripe.net/wp-content/themes/fluida-ripe-child/images/fb-image.png]<https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>

Archives &#8211; RIPE 74<https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
ripe74.ripe.net



Thanks



Marcus
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From kmw.elitcha at gmail.com  Wed May 10 07:42:32 2017
From: kmw.elitcha at gmail.com (abel ELITCHA)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 07:42:32 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAN0q0kEo=FWE-AOfGFFznaz6A-OufPdTmYZNFURDdS-NHPsWug@mail.gmail.com>

Brother Andrew,
Good luck!

2017-05-10 7:34 GMT+00:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>:

> Thanks Marcus,
>
> Just some feedback for the community.
>
> It's been a great experience here at RIPE and some of the ideas given and
> the extensive discussions following the presentation referred to by Marcus
> have been both useful and informative.
>
> Draft 2 will be submitted shortly very much in line with what I presented
> in that presentation - and before the 7 day deadline as per the PDP so we
> can discuss on that basis.
>
> Following the meeting in Nairobi, I suspect we will then be gathering
> still further input and further drafts will follow, if there is no
> consensus found on the floor for the draft 2 that will be submitted.
>
> I think for myself, the most important thing I have seen at RIPE so far,
> is the huge willingness by people from every walk of life to engage in
> dialog and discussion over this, and it was heartening to see both my own
> positions and the positions of those I was discussing with shift as
> explanations were given and questions were asked and answered.  Since
> giving that presentation I have barely had a minute to think as people
> approached me to talk this through - and I really hope to see such
> engagement in Nairobi, because it truly showed the benefit of a multi
> stakeholder approach where open dialog and communication can happen, even
> in the absence of agreement and in the face of controversial material where
> people hold strong and emotive views.
>
> I look forward to the discussions on the floor of the PDP and engaging
> with all of you to hear your thoughts and views and finding the right
> solution to the issue.
>
> Thanks
>
> Andrew
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:48:42 PM
> *To:* rpd at afrinic.net; community-discuss at afrinic.net
> *Subject:* [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
> discussed at RIPE
>
>
> Dear Colleagues.
>
> You might want to see the presentation of the controversial draft
> anti-shutdown policy (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent RIPE
> meeting.  I found the questions/comments from the RIPE community similar to
> that shared by many on the RPD, mostly about the inappropriateness of such
> policy in our region? or any other for that matter.  Enjoy watching it.
>
> https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/
> <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
> Archives &#8211; RIPE 74 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
> ripe74.ripe.net
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Marcus
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>


-- 
--Abel
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From noah at neo.co.tz  Wed May 10 09:01:06 2017
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 12:01:06 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>

Mmmm on the contrary seems like most folk on the floor disagreed with the
contraversial policy and its approach no matter how much the Arthors seek
for better ways to improve it.

Some suggested multistake holder engagement and in particular Leslie Daigle
comments on the floor are worth taking into serious considerations by the
way.

The best comment in my opinion was from the Alan Durand who reminded
everyone what the real core mission of the RIR community is,  and that
is....

"To allocate resources and maintain the accuracy of the database".PERIOD.
[1]

Noah

[1]I have had in the past folk state statements like "How some ome runs his
network is none of anyones business and in that matter policing the network
is none of AFRINICs business"

On 10 May 2017 10:39 a.m., "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
wrote:

> Thanks Marcus,
>
> Just some feedback for the community.
>
> It's been a great experience here at RIPE and some of the ideas given and
> the extensive discussions following the presentation referred to by Marcus
> have been both useful and informative.
>
> Draft 2 will be submitted shortly very much in line with what I presented
> in that presentation - and before the 7 day deadline as per the PDP so we
> can discuss on that basis.
>
> Following the meeting in Nairobi, I suspect we will then be gathering
> still further input and further drafts will follow, if there is no
> consensus found on the floor for the draft 2 that will be submitted.
>
> I think for myself, the most important thing I have seen at RIPE so far,
> is the huge willingness by people from every walk of life to engage in
> dialog and discussion over this, and it was heartening to see both my own
> positions and the positions of those I was discussing with shift as
> explanations were given and questions were asked and answered.  Since
> giving that presentation I have barely had a minute to think as people
> approached me to talk this through - and I really hope to see such
> engagement in Nairobi, because it truly showed the benefit of a multi
> stakeholder approach where open dialog and communication can happen, even
> in the absence of agreement and in the face of controversial material where
> people hold strong and emotive views.
>
> I look forward to the discussions on the floor of the PDP and engaging
> with all of you to hear your thoughts and views and finding the right
> solution to the issue.
>
> Thanks
>
> Andrew
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:48:42 PM
> *To:* rpd at afrinic.net; community-discuss at afrinic.net
> *Subject:* [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
> discussed at RIPE
>
>
> Dear Colleagues.
>
> You might want to see the presentation of the controversial draft
> anti-shutdown policy (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent RIPE
> meeting.  I found the questions/comments from the RIPE community similar to
> that shared by many on the RPD, mostly about the inappropriateness of such
> policy in our region? or any other for that matter.  Enjoy watching it.
>
> https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/
> <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
> Archives &#8211; RIPE 74 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
> ripe74.ripe.net
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Marcus
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Wed May 10 09:33:59 2017
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 09:33:59 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3493E1A0-5770-4DD5-AC65-457C9292D19F@liquidtelecom.com>

Noah,

A line at the microphone is one thing ? discussions that have been going on till 3am every morning since then with everyone else on the floor who wasn?t at the microphone ? are another entirely ?

Andrew


From: Noah <noah at neo.co.tz>
Date: Wednesday, 10 May 2017 at 11:01
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, rpd List <rpd at afrinic.net>, "Marcus K. G. Adomey" <madomey at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy discussed at RIPE

Mmmm on the contrary seems like most folk on the floor disagreed with the contraversial policy and its approach no matter how much the Arthors seek for better ways to improve it.

Some suggested multistake holder engagement and in particular Leslie Daigle comments on the floor are worth taking into serious considerations by the way.

The best comment in my opinion was from the Alan Durand who reminded everyone what the real core mission of the RIR community is,  and that is....

"To allocate resources and maintain the accuracy of the database".PERIOD. [1]

Noah

[1]I have had in the past folk state statements like "How some ome runs his network is none of anyones business and in that matter policing the network is none of AFRINICs business"

On 10 May 2017 10:39 a.m., "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Thanks Marcus,

Just some feedback for the community.

It's been a great experience here at RIPE and some of the ideas given and the extensive discussions following the presentation referred to by Marcus have been both useful and informative.

Draft 2 will be submitted shortly very much in line with what I presented in that presentation - and before the 7 day deadline as per the PDP so we can discuss on that basis.

Following the meeting in Nairobi, I suspect we will then be gathering still further input and further drafts will follow, if there is no consensus found on the floor for the draft 2 that will be submitted.

I think for myself, the most important thing I have seen at RIPE so far, is the huge willingness by people from every walk of life to engage in dialog and discussion over this, and it was heartening to see both my own positions and the positions of those I was discussing with shift as explanations were given and questions were asked and answered.  Since giving that presentation I have barely had a minute to think as people approached me to talk this through - and I really hope to see such engagement in Nairobi, because it truly showed the benefit of a multi stakeholder approach where open dialog and communication can happen, even in the absence of agreement and in the face of controversial material where people hold strong and emotive views.

I look forward to the discussions on the floor of the PDP and engaging with all of you to hear your thoughts and views and finding the right solution to the issue.

Thanks

Andrew

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
________________________________
From: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com<mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:48:42 PM
To: rpd at afrinic.net<mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>; community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy discussed at RIPE

Dear Colleagues.

You might want to see the presentation of the controversial draft anti-shutdown policy (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent RIPE meeting.  I found the questions/comments from the RIPE community similar to that shared by many on the RPD, mostly about the inappropriateness of such policy in our region? or any other for that matter.  Enjoy watching it.

https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/
[https://ripe74.ripe.net/wp-content/themes/fluida-ripe-child/images/fb-image.png]<https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>

Archives &#8211; RIPE 74<https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
ripe74.ripe.net<http://ripe74.ripe.net>



Thanks




Marcus

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
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From noah at neo.co.tz  Wed May 10 09:42:31 2017
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 12:42:31 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <3493E1A0-5770-4DD5-AC65-457C9292D19F@liquidtelecom.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <3493E1A0-5770-4DD5-AC65-457C9292D19F@liquidtelecom.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqgTWYLkwgZM6KNV2cHNaEsidOkrSQP17=8ppopQTUgJh-hDQ@mail.gmail.com>

Andrew,

Those past midnight discussions dont change the facts. We shalll have more
of those in the planned event organised by AFRINIC ref:Intenet Shutdowns.

But fact remains that, AFRINIC's core missions is to promote internet
development by allocating  number resources and maintaining the database.

Noah

On 10 May 2017 12:34 p.m., "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
wrote:

> Noah,
>
>
>
> A line at the microphone is one thing ? discussions that have been going
> on till 3am every morning since then with everyone else on the floor who
> wasn?t at the microphone ? are another entirely ?
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Noah <noah at neo.co.tz>
> *Date: *Wednesday, 10 May 2017 at 11:01
> *To: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> *Cc: *General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>, rpd
> List <rpd at afrinic.net>, "Marcus K. G. Adomey" <madomey at hotmail.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
> discussed at RIPE
>
>
>
> Mmmm on the contrary seems like most folk on the floor disagreed with the
> contraversial policy and its approach no matter how much the Arthors seek
> for better ways to improve it.
>
>
>
> Some suggested multistake holder engagement and in particular Leslie
> Daigle comments on the floor are worth taking into serious considerations
> by the way.
>
>
>
> The best comment in my opinion was from the Alan Durand who reminded
> everyone what the real core mission of the RIR community is,  and that
> is....
>
>
>
> "To allocate resources and maintain the accuracy of the database".PERIOD.
> [1]
>
>
>
> Noah
>
>
>
> [1]I have had in the past folk state statements like "How some ome runs
> his network is none of anyones business and in that matter policing the
> network is none of AFRINICs business"
>
>
>
> On 10 May 2017 10:39 a.m., "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.
> com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Marcus,
>
>
>
> Just some feedback for the community.
>
>
>
> It's been a great experience here at RIPE and some of the ideas given and
> the extensive discussions following the presentation referred to by Marcus
> have been both useful and informative.
>
>
>
> Draft 2 will be submitted shortly very much in line with what I presented
> in that presentation - and before the 7 day deadline as per the PDP so we
> can discuss on that basis.
>
>
>
> Following the meeting in Nairobi, I suspect we will then be gathering
> still further input and further drafts will follow, if there is no
> consensus found on the floor for the draft 2 that will be submitted.
>
>
>
> I think for myself, the most important thing I have seen at RIPE so far,
> is the huge willingness by people from every walk of life to engage in
> dialog and discussion over this, and it was heartening to see both my own
> positions and the positions of those I was discussing with shift as
> explanations were given and questions were asked and answered.  Since
> giving that presentation I have barely had a minute to think as people
> approached me to talk this through - and I really hope to see such
> engagement in Nairobi, because it truly showed the benefit of a multi
> stakeholder approach where open dialog and communication can happen, even
> in the absence of agreement and in the face of controversial material where
> people hold strong and emotive views.
>
>
>
> I look forward to the discussions on the floor of the PDP and engaging
> with all of you to hear your thoughts and views and finding the right
> solution to the issue.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:48:42 PM
> *To:* rpd at afrinic.net; community-discuss at afrinic.net
> *Subject:* [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
> discussed at RIPE
>
>
>
> Dear Colleagues.
>
>
>
> You might want to see the presentation of the controversial draft
> anti-shutdown policy (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent RIPE
> meeting.  I found the questions/comments from the RIPE community similar to
> that shared by many on the RPD, mostly about the inappropriateness of such
> policy in our region? or any other for that matter.  Enjoy watching it.
>
>
>
> https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/
>
> <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>
> Archives &#8211; RIPE 74 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>
> ripe74.ripe.net
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From mje at posix.co.za  Wed May 10 09:49:59 2017
From: mje at posix.co.za (Mark Elkins)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 11:49:59 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>

I downloaded the complete video  from RIPE and watched it a few times. I
was also watching live.

Its large - but if you can do, download it and watch it.

https://ripe74.ripe.net/archive/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti-Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Rationale-20170508-171822.mp4'


Then again, when the Chairman of ICANN stands up and says that ICANN can
help.

"Hi, my name is Steve Crocker, I am Chairman of ICANN and I'm here to
help you. (Regarding) take out of the root the affected ccTLD names" and
he then volunteered assistance from ICANN staff - also saying it would
take between two and five years to get to a decision whether to proceed
or not.

The current policy concept does not go that far - but to me - certainly
suggests that the idea of punitive actions against governments is worth
looking at.

I regard it like a nuclear bomb. When in the hands of sane people (RIR's
and ICANN), it is a threat - to persuade bad actors to have second
thoughts against cutting people off from access to the Internet. If
governments choose to cut people off from access to the Internet for
political reasons, to me this is undermining the core mission of ICANN
and the RIR's, both of whom have the potential power to do something in
return. We need to enable that power from being simply a potential to
being ready for use and hope its never needed to be used.


On 10/05/2017 11:01, Noah wrote:
> Mmmm on the contrary seems like most folk on the floor disagreed with
> the contraversial policy and its approach no matter how much the
> Arthors seek for better ways to improve it.
>
> Some suggested multistake holder engagement and in particular Leslie
> Daigle comments on the floor are worth taking into serious
> considerations by the way.

Leslie Daigle of ISOC agrees that there is a problem. She has concerns
but sounded to me more would like to see something. She just doesn't
want to see dialogue being undermined by this policy.

Perhaps talk is not enough?

> The best comment in my opinion was from the Alan Durand who reminded
> everyone what the real core mission of the RIR community is,  and that
> is....

I'd say he was more worried about the policy being used for much more
than it is currently intended for. (referenced to the colour of people's
hair as a reason to cut them off the Internet).

> "To allocate resources and maintain the accuracy of the
> database".PERIOD. [1]
>
> Noah
>
> [1]I have had in the past folk state statements like "How some ome
> runs his network is none of anyones business and in that matter
> policing the network is none of AFRINICs business" 
>
> On 10 May 2017 10:39 a.m., "Andrew Alston"
> <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com
> <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks Marcus,
>
>     Just some feedback for the community.
>
>     It's been a great experience here at RIPE and some of the ideas
>     given and the extensive discussions following the presentation
>     referred to by Marcus have been both useful and informative.
>
>     Draft 2 will be submitted shortly very much in line with what I
>     presented in that presentation - and before the 7 day deadline as
>     per the PDP so we can discuss on that basis.
>
>     Following the meeting in Nairobi, I suspect we will then be
>     gathering still further input and further drafts will follow, if
>     there is no consensus found on the floor for the draft 2 that will
>     be submitted.
>
>     I think for myself, the most important thing I have seen at RIPE
>     so far, is the huge willingness by people from every walk of life
>     to engage in dialog and discussion over this, and it was
>     heartening to see both my own positions and the positions of those
>     I was discussing with shift as explanations were given and
>     questions were asked and answered.  Since giving that presentation
>     I have barely had a minute to think as people approached me to
>     talk this through - and I really hope to see such engagement in
>     Nairobi, because it truly showed the benefit of a multi
>     stakeholder approach where open dialog and communication can
>     happen, even in the absence of agreement and in the face of
>     controversial material where people hold strong and emotive views.
>
>     I look forward to the discussions on the floor of the PDP and
>     engaging with all of you to hear your thoughts and views and
>     finding the right solution to the issue.
>
>     Thanks
>
>     Andrew
>
>     Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com
>     <mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>>
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:48:42 PM
>     *To:* rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>;
>     community-discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
>     *Subject:* [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
>     discussed at RIPE
>      
>     Dear Colleagues.
>
>     You might want to see the presentation of the controversial draft
>     anti-shutdown policy (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent
>     RIPE meeting.  I found the questions/comments from the RIPE
>     community similar to that shared by many on the RPD, mostly about
>     the inappropriateness of such policy in our region? or any other
>     for that matter.  Enjoy watching it.
>
>     https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/
>     <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>  
>     <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>     	
>     Archives &#8211; RIPE 74 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>     ripe74.ripe.net <http://ripe74.ripe.net>
>
>
>
>     Thanks
>
>
>     Marcus
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Community-Discuss mailing list
>     Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>     https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>     <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RPD mailing list
> RPD at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd

-- 
Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za

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From badru.ntege at nftconsult.com  Wed May 10 09:53:38 2017
From: badru.ntege at nftconsult.com (Badru Ntege)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 09:53:38 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <3493E1A0-5770-4DD5-AC65-457C9292D19F@liquidtelecom.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <3493E1A0-5770-4DD5-AC65-457C9292D19F@liquidtelecom.com>
Message-ID: <A442AACD-2C64-43CA-ACC5-3A007F3AD973@nftconsult.com>

Let's focus on the mission of Afrinic.  Political governance of sovereign states as much as it might impact us falls in our circle of concern and not our circle of influence.

Unless our mission has changed yes this is a good conversation point but not our work.

I would like to see passion and dialogue arround how we can extend the networks to the unconnected how we can make IPV6 a default topic on all school network curriculums in Afrinic region schools.

Let's follow and pursue an Agenda that adds to our mission. There is no likely policy we can develop that will have impact on any regional head of state.

Appreciate the fear they have of the internet and empower them with knowledge to enable them to fix the local challenges without taking extreme measures.

Time to stop this diversionary abuse of the PDP process in pursuit of private Agendas.

Badru

Sent from my iPhone

On 10 May 2017, at 11:35, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:

Noah,

A line at the microphone is one thing ? discussions that have been going on till 3am every morning since then with everyone else on the floor who wasn?t at the microphone ? are another entirely ?

Andrew


From: Noah <noah at neo.co.tz<mailto:noah at neo.co.tz>>
Date: Wednesday, 10 May 2017 at 11:01
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>, rpd List <rpd at afrinic.net<mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>, "Marcus K. G. Adomey" <madomey at hotmail.com<mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy discussed at RIPE

Mmmm on the contrary seems like most folk on the floor disagreed with the contraversial policy and its approach no matter how much the Arthors seek for better ways to improve it.

Some suggested multistake holder engagement and in particular Leslie Daigle comments on the floor are worth taking into serious considerations by the way.

The best comment in my opinion was from the Alan Durand who reminded everyone what the real core mission of the RIR community is,  and that is....

"To allocate resources and maintain the accuracy of the database".PERIOD. [1]

Noah

[1]I have had in the past folk state statements like "How some ome runs his network is none of anyones business and in that matter policing the network is none of AFRINICs business"

On 10 May 2017 10:39 a.m., "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Thanks Marcus,

Just some feedback for the community.

It's been a great experience here at RIPE and some of the ideas given and the extensive discussions following the presentation referred to by Marcus have been both useful and informative.

Draft 2 will be submitted shortly very much in line with what I presented in that presentation - and before the 7 day deadline as per the PDP so we can discuss on that basis.

Following the meeting in Nairobi, I suspect we will then be gathering still further input and further drafts will follow, if there is no consensus found on the floor for the draft 2 that will be submitted.

I think for myself, the most important thing I have seen at RIPE so far, is the huge willingness by people from every walk of life to engage in dialog and discussion over this, and it was heartening to see both my own positions and the positions of those I was discussing with shift as explanations were given and questions were asked and answered.  Since giving that presentation I have barely had a minute to think as people approached me to talk this through - and I really hope to see such engagement in Nairobi, because it truly showed the benefit of a multi stakeholder approach where open dialog and communication can happen, even in the absence of agreement and in the face of controversial material where people hold strong and emotive views.

I look forward to the discussions on the floor of the PDP and engaging with all of you to hear your thoughts and views and finding the right solution to the issue.

Thanks

Andrew

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
________________________________
From: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com<mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:48:42 PM
To: rpd at afrinic.net<mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>; community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy discussed at RIPE

Dear Colleagues.

You might want to see the presentation of the controversial draft anti-shutdown policy (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent RIPE meeting.  I found the questions/comments from the RIPE community similar to that shared by many on the RPD, mostly about the inappropriateness of such policy in our region? or any other for that matter.  Enjoy watching it.

https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/
[https://ripe74.ripe.net/wp-content/themes/fluida-ripe-child/images/fb-image.png]<https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>

Archives &#8211; RIPE 74<https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
ripe74.ripe.net<http://ripe74.ripe.net>



Thanks




Marcus

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
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From pan.afrikhan at gmail.com  Wed May 10 10:40:50 2017
From: pan.afrikhan at gmail.com (Tutu Ngcaba)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 13:40:50 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
Message-ID: <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>

Brother Elkins,

The ICANN chairman Steve said some concern of internet shutdown will
undermine the missions of Icann and the Afrinic and they two have the potential
power to do something in return.

The Afrinic Government Working Group AFGWG can work with the ICANN to
achieve more mutlistakeholders talkings and meetings. This is what needs to
be done in return.

I ask the AFGWG to do some taking to the ICANN and they can meet our
governments for education on economic important of Internet.


Best Regards,

Tutu Ngcaba
Kwazulu Techno Hubs
South Africa



On 10 May 2017 12:53 p.m., "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za> wrote:

I downloaded the complete video  from RIPE and watched it a few times. I
was also watching live.

Its large - but if you can do, download it and watch it.

https://ripe74.ripe.net/archive/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti-
Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Rationale-20170508-171822.mp4'


Then again, when the Chairman of ICANN stands up and says that ICANN can
help.

"Hi, my name is Steve Crocker, I am Chairman of ICANN and I'm here to help
you. (Regarding) take out of the root the affected ccTLD names" and he then
volunteered assistance from ICANN staff - also saying it would take between
two and five years to get to a decision whether to proceed or not.

The current policy concept does not go that far - but to me - certainly
suggests that the idea of punitive actions against governments is worth
looking at.

I regard it like a nuclear bomb. When in the hands of sane people (RIR's
and ICANN), it is a threat - to persuade bad actors to have second thoughts
against cutting people off from access to the Internet. If governments
choose to cut people off from access to the Internet for political reasons,
to me this is undermining the core mission of ICANN and the RIR's, both of
whom have the potential power to do something in return. We need to enable
that power from being simply a potential to being ready for use and hope
its never needed to be used.

On 10/05/2017 11:01, Noah wrote:

Mmmm on the contrary seems like most folk on the floor disagreed with the
contraversial policy and its approach no matter how much the Arthors seek
for better ways to improve it.

Some suggested multistake holder engagement and in particular Leslie Daigle
comments on the floor are worth taking into serious considerations by the
way.


Leslie Daigle of ISOC agrees that there is a problem. She has concerns but
sounded to me more would like to see something. She just doesn't want to
see dialogue being undermined by this policy.

Perhaps talk is not enough?


The best comment in my opinion was from the Alan Durand who reminded
everyone what the real core mission of the RIR community is,  and that
is....


I'd say he was more worried about the policy being used for much more than
it is currently intended for. (referenced to the colour of people's hair as
a reason to cut them off the Internet).

"To allocate resources and maintain the accuracy of the database".PERIOD.
[1]

Noah

[1]I have had in the past folk state statements like "How some ome runs his
network is none of anyones business and in that matter policing the network
is none of AFRINICs business"

On 10 May 2017 10:39 a.m., "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
wrote:

> Thanks Marcus,
>
> Just some feedback for the community.
>
> It's been a great experience here at RIPE and some of the ideas given and
> the extensive discussions following the presentation referred to by Marcus
> have been both useful and informative.
>
> Draft 2 will be submitted shortly very much in line with what I presented
> in that presentation - and before the 7 day deadline as per the PDP so we
> can discuss on that basis.
>
> Following the meeting in Nairobi, I suspect we will then be gathering
> still further input and further drafts will follow, if there is no
> consensus found on the floor for the draft 2 that will be submitted.
>
> I think for myself, the most important thing I have seen at RIPE so far,
> is the huge willingness by people from every walk of life to engage in
> dialog and discussion over this, and it was heartening to see both my own
> positions and the positions of those I was discussing with shift as
> explanations were given and questions were asked and answered.  Since
> giving that presentation I have barely had a minute to think as people
> approached me to talk this through - and I really hope to see such
> engagement in Nairobi, because it truly showed the benefit of a multi
> stakeholder approach where open dialog and communication can happen, even
> in the absence of agreement and in the face of controversial material where
> people hold strong and emotive views.
>
> I look forward to the discussions on the floor of the PDP and engaging
> with all of you to hear your thoughts and views and finding the right
> solution to the issue.
>
> Thanks
>
> Andrew
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:48:42 PM
> *To:* rpd at afrinic.net; community-discuss at afrinic.net
> *Subject:* [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
> discussed at RIPE
>
> Dear Colleagues.
>
> You might want to see the presentation of the controversial draft
> anti-shutdown policy (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent RIPE
> meeting.  I found the questions/comments from the RIPE community similar to
> that shared by many on the RPD, mostly about the inappropriateness of such
> policy in our region? or any other for that matter.  Enjoy watching it.
>
> https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/
> <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
> Archives &#8211; RIPE 74 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
> ripe74.ripe.net
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Marcus
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>

_______________________________________________
RPD mailing listRPD at afrinic.nethttps://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd


-- 
Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africamje at posix.co.za
   Tel: +27.128070590 <+27%2012%20807%200590>  Cell: +27.826010496
<+27%2082%20601%200496>
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za


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From mirriamlauren at yahoo.com  Thu May 11 18:23:33 2017
From: mirriamlauren at yahoo.com (Mirriam)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 18:23:33 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi All,
I totally agree with what Badru has stated and I really hope the PDP update policy proposal on the table before us can help to improve the Afrinic policy development process and environment notwithstanding quality of work so as to avoid such abuses of the pdp.
KR,
Mirriam


On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 1:41:29 PM GMT+3, Tutu Ngcaba <pan.afrikhan at gmail.com> wrote:Brother Elkins,
The ICANN chairman Steve said some concern of internet shutdown will undermine the missions of Icann and the Afrinic and they two have the?potential power to do something in return.?
The Afrinic Government Working Group AFGWG can work with the ICANN to achieve more mutlistakeholders talkings and meetings. This is what needs to be done in return.

I ask the AFGWG to do some taking to the ICANN and they can meet our governments for education on economic important of Internet.

Best Regards,

Tutu Ngcaba
Kwazulu Techno Hubs
South Africa
??? 

On 10 May 2017 12:53 p.m., "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za> wrote:

  
I downloaded the complete video? from RIPE and watched it a few times. I was also watching live.
 
Its large - but if you can do, download it and watch it.
 
https://ripe74.ripe.net/archiv e/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti- Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Ration ale-20170508-171822.mp4'
 
 
 

 
 
Then again, when the Chairman of ICANN stands up and says that ICANN can help. 
 
 
"Hi, my name is Steve Crocker, I am Chairman of ICANN and I'm here to help you. (Regarding) take out of the root the affected ccTLD names" and he then volunteered assistance from ICANN staff - also saying it would take between two and five years to get to a decision whether to proceed or not.
 
The current policy concept does not go that far - but to me - certainly suggests that the idea of punitive actions against governments is worth looking at.
 
I regard it like a nuclear bomb. When in the hands of sane people (RIR's and ICANN), it is a threat - to persuade bad actors to have second thoughts against cutting people off from access to the Internet. If governments choose to cut people off from access to the Internet for political reasons, to me this is undermining the core mission of ICANN and the RIR's, both of whom have the potential power to do something in return. We need to enable that power from being simply a potential to being ready for use and hope its never needed to be used.
 
 
 On 10/05/2017 11:01, Noah wrote:
  
 Mmmm on the contrary seems like most folk on the floor disagreed with the contraversial policy and its approach no matter how much the Arthors seek for better ways to improve it. 
  Some suggested multistake holder engagement and in particular Leslie Daigle comments on the floor are worth taking into serious considerations by the way.  
 
 Leslie Daigle of ISOC agrees that there is a problem. She has concerns but sounded to me more would like to see something. She just doesn't want to see dialogue being undermined by this policy.
 
 Perhaps talk is not enough?
 
 
    The best comment in my opinion was from the Alan Durand who reminded everyone what the real core mission of the RIR community is, ?and that is....    
 
 I'd say he was more worried about the policy being used for much more than it is currently intended for. (referenced to the colour of people's hair as a reason to cut them off the Internet).
 
 
    "To allocate resources and maintain the accuracy of the database".PERIOD. [1] 
  Noah 
  [1]I have had in the past folk state statements like "How some ome runs his network is none of anyones business and in that matter policing the network is none of AFRINICs business"?
     
 On 10 May 2017 10:39 a.m., "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.c om> wrote:
 
     Thanks Marcus, 
  Just some feedback for the community. 
  It's been a great experience here at RIPE and some of the ideas given and the extensive discussions following the presentation referred to by Marcus have been both useful and informative. 
  Draft 2 will be submitted shortly very much in line with what I presented in that presentation - and before the 7 day deadline as  per the PDP so we can discuss on that basis. 
  Following the meeting in Nairobi, I suspect we will then be gathering still further input and further drafts will follow, if  there is no consensus found on the floor for the draft 2 that will be submitted. 
  I think for myself, the most important thing I have seen at RIPE so far, is the huge willingness by people from every walk of  life to engage in dialog and discussion over this, and it was heartening to see both my own positions and the positions of those I was discussing with shift as explanations were given and questions were asked and answered.? Since giving that presentation  I have barely had a minute to think as people approached me to talk this through - and I really hope to see such engagement in Nairobi, because it truly showed the benefit of a multi stakeholder approach where open dialog and communication can happen, even in the absence of agreement and in the face of controversial material where people hold strong and emotive views. 
  I look forward to the discussions on the floor of the PDP and engaging with all of you to hear your thoughts and views and  finding the right solution to the issue. 
  Thanks 
  Andrew 
  Get Outlook for iOS    From: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
 Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:48:42 PM
 To: rpd at afrinic.net; community-discuss at afrinic.net
 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy discussed at RIPE ?    Dear Colleagues. 
  You might want to see the presentation of the controversial draft anti-shutdown policy (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent RIPE  meeting.? I found the questions/comments from the RIPE community similar to that shared by many on the RPD, mostly about the inappropriateness of such policy in our region? or any other for that matter.? Enjoy watching it. 
  https://ripe74.ripe.net/archiv es/video/41/??  
|     |   Archives &#8211; RIPE 74  ripe74.ripe.net  |

  
 
  Thanks 
 

 
 
Marcus
    
 ______________________________ _________________
 Community-Discuss mailing list
 Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
 https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/community-discuss
 
 
   
  
 ______________________________ _________________
RPD mailing list
RPD at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/rpd
 
 
 -- 
Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
 
______________________________ _________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/community-discuss



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Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
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From saul at enetworks.co.za  Fri May 12 07:10:00 2017
From: saul at enetworks.co.za (Saul Stein)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 09:10:00 +0200 (SAST)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
	discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>

Hi,



Please can you explain how this is an abuse of the RPD?



We have a serious issue of internet shutdowns on our continent. The impact 
that it has on education, the economy etc is immeasurable!

This should be of grace concern to all of us!



The authors of the policy have stated numerous times that this is an 
evolving proposal.



The important thing is that it is encouraging global debate on how to 
resolve this issue. THAT is what this proposal is about ? ways to prevent 
this from happening.



Whatever solutions we come up with ? but that can only happen with this 
debate, so I don?t see how it?s a waist!



Saul





From: Mirriam [mailto:mirriamlauren at yahoo.com]
Sent: 11 May 2017 08:24 PM
To: Tutu Ngcaba <pan.afrikhan at gmail.com>; Mark Elkins <mje at posix.co.za>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; AfriNIC 
List <rpd at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy 
discussed at RIPE



Hi All,



I totally agree with what Badru has stated and I really hope the PDP update 
policy proposal on the table before us can help to improve the Afrinic 
policy development process and environment notwithstanding quality of work 
so as to avoid such abuses of the pdp.



KR,

Mirriam





On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 1:41:29 PM GMT+3, Tutu Ngcaba 
<pan.afrikhan at gmail.com <mailto:pan.afrikhan at gmail.com> > wrote:

Brother Elkins,



The ICANN chairman Steve said some concern of internet shutdown will 
undermine the missions of Icann and the Afrinic and they two have the 
potential power to do something in return.



The Afrinic Government Working Group AFGWG can work with the ICANN to 
achieve more mutlistakeholders talkings and meetings. This is what needs to 
be done in return.

I ask the AFGWG to do some taking to the ICANN and they can meet our 
governments for education on economic important of Internet.





Best Regards,

Tutu Ngcaba
Kwazulu Techno Hubs
South Africa






On 10 May 2017 12:53 p.m., "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za 
<mailto:mje at posix.co.za> > wrote:

I downloaded the complete video  from RIPE and watched it a few times. I was 
also watching live.

Its large - but if you can do, download it and watch it.

https://ripe74.ripe.net/archiv e/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti- 
Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Ration ale-20170508-171822.mp4 
<https://ripe74.ripe.net/archive/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti-Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Rationale-20170508-171822.mp4> 
'



Then again, when the Chairman of ICANN stands up and says that ICANN can 
help.

"Hi, my name is Steve Crocker, I am Chairman of ICANN and I'm here to help 
you. (Regarding) take out of the root the affected ccTLD names" and he then 
volunteered assistance from ICANN staff - also saying it would take between 
two and five years to get to a decision whether to proceed or not.

The current policy concept does not go that far - but to me - certainly 
suggests that the idea of punitive actions against governments is worth 
looking at.

I regard it like a nuclear bomb. When in the hands of sane people (RIR's and 
ICANN), it is a threat - to persuade bad actors to have second thoughts 
against cutting people off from access to the Internet. If governments 
choose to cut people off from access to the Internet for political reasons, 
to me this is undermining the core mission of ICANN and the RIR's, both of 
whom have the potential power to do something in return. We need to enable 
that power from being simply a potential to being ready for use and hope its 
never needed to be used.



On 10/05/2017 11:01, Noah wrote:

Mmmm on the contrary seems like most folk on the floor disagreed with the 
contraversial policy and its approach no matter how much the Arthors seek 
for better ways to improve it.



Some suggested multistake holder engagement and in particular Leslie Daigle 
comments on the floor are worth taking into serious considerations by the 
way.



Leslie Daigle of ISOC agrees that there is a problem. She has concerns but 
sounded to me more would like to see something. She just doesn't want to see 
dialogue being undermined by this policy.

Perhaps talk is not enough?






The best comment in my opinion was from the Alan Durand who reminded 
everyone what the real core mission of the RIR community is,  and that 
is....



I'd say he was more worried about the policy being used for much more than 
it is currently intended for. (referenced to the colour of people's hair as 
a reason to cut them off the Internet).




"To allocate resources and maintain the accuracy of the database".PERIOD. 
[1]



Noah



[1]I have had in the past folk state statements like "How some ome runs his 
network is none of anyones business and in that matter policing the network 
is none of AFRINICs business"



On 10 May 2017 10:39 a.m., "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.c om 
<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> > wrote:

Thanks Marcus,



Just some feedback for the community.



It's been a great experience here at RIPE and some of the ideas given and 
the extensive discussions following the presentation referred to by Marcus 
have been both useful and informative.



Draft 2 will be submitted shortly very much in line with what I presented in 
that presentation - and before the 7 day deadline as per the PDP so we can 
discuss on that basis.



Following the meeting in Nairobi, I suspect we will then be gathering still 
further input and further drafts will follow, if there is no consensus found 
on the floor for the draft 2 that will be submitted.



I think for myself, the most important thing I have seen at RIPE so far, is 
the huge willingness by people from every walk of life to engage in dialog 
and discussion over this, and it was heartening to see both my own positions 
and the positions of those I was discussing with shift as explanations were 
given and questions were asked and answered.  Since giving that presentation 
I have barely had a minute to think as people approached me to talk this 
through - and I really hope to see such engagement in Nairobi, because it 
truly showed the benefit of a multi stakeholder approach where open dialog 
and communication can happen, even in the absence of agreement and in the 
face of controversial material where people hold strong and emotive views.



I look forward to the discussions on the floor of the PDP and engaging with 
all of you to hear your thoughts and views and finding the right solution to 
the issue.



Thanks



Andrew



Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>


  _____


From: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com <mailto:madomey at hotmail.com> 
 >
Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:48:42 PM
To: rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net> ; community-discuss at afrinic.net 
<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy discussed at 
RIPE



Dear Colleagues.



You might want to see the presentation of the controversial draft 
anti-shutdown policy (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent RIPE meeting. 
I found the questions/comments from the RIPE community similar to that 
shared by many on the RPD, mostly about the inappropriateness of such policy 
in our region? or any other for that matter.  Enjoy watching it.



https://ripe74.ripe.net/archiv es/video/41/ 
<https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>


 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>

 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/> Archives &#8211; RIPE 74

ripe74.ripe.net <http://ripe74.ripe.net>





Thanks





Marcus


______________________________ _________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/community-discuss 
<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>





______________________________ _________________
RPD mailing list
RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/rpd 
<https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>



-- 
Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>        Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: 
+27.826010496
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za


______________________________ _________________
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Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
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From amelnaud at gmail.com  Fri May 12 07:43:05 2017
From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 07:43:05 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
Message-ID: <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>

+1 Dear Mirriam and Badru

Cela sera fix? par notre projet de politique PDP-BIS.

This will be fixed by our PDP-BIS policy proposal.

@Saul, je confirme que cette politique de shutdown est inopportune sur le
PDP, c'est une v?ritable perte de temps, car d'autres politique ssont sur
la table du PDP et personne n'a encore r?agit par rapport ? elles et on
tourne autour d'une politique dont tout le monde sait qu'elle n'aboutira
pas, et on nous avance comme argument le d?bat que ?a va susciter, c'est
comme si on se moque de notre communaut? de techniciens. Nous ne sommes pas
Politiciens, laissons cet aspect ? ceux qui en ont la comp?tence, pour en
d?battre, et nous nous serons l? en appui ? leur d?cision. Dicsutons sur
les choes qui feront avancer afrinic eet non celles qui lui cr?eront des
probl?mes. JE voudrais inviter tous les membres de cette communaut? ? se
concentrer sur les vrais missions d'Afrinic et d?batre de son avenir. Merci
pour votre conmpr?hension.


@Saul, I confirm that this shutdown policy is inappropriate on the PDP, it
is a real waste of time because other policies are on the PDP table and
nobody has yet reacted with them and we turn Around to  a policy that
everyone knows will not succeed, and we are advanced as an argument the
debate that will arouse, it is like we laugh at our community of
technicians. We are not Politicians, we leave it to those who have the
competence to debate it, and we will be there to support their decision. Let
us discuss on things that will move AFRINIC forward instead of those that
will create problems. I would like to invite all members of this community
to focus on Afrinic's real missions and to discuss its future. Thank you
for your understanding.

Cordialement.

Arnaud.

2017-05-12 7:10 GMT+00:00 Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za>:

> Hi,
>
>
>
> Please can you explain how this is an abuse of the RPD?
>
>
>
> We have a serious issue of internet shutdowns on our continent. The impact
> that it has on education, the economy etc is immeasurable!
>
> This should be of grace concern to all of us!
>
>
>
> The authors of the policy have stated numerous times that this is an
> evolving proposal.
>
>
>
> The important thing is that it is encouraging global debate on how to
> resolve this issue. THAT is what this proposal is about ? ways to prevent
> this from happening.
>
>
>
> Whatever solutions we come up with ? but that can only happen with this
> debate, so I don?t see how it?s a waist!
>
>
>
> Saul
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Mirriam [mailto:mirriamlauren at yahoo.com]
> *Sent:* 11 May 2017 08:24 PM
> *To:* Tutu Ngcaba <pan.afrikhan at gmail.com>; Mark Elkins <mje at posix.co.za>
> *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>;
> AfriNIC List <rpd at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
> discussed at RIPE
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> I totally agree with what Badru has stated and I really hope the PDP
> update policy proposal on the table before us can help to improve the
> Afrinic policy development process and environment notwithstanding quality
> of work so as to avoid such abuses of the pdp.
>
>
>
> KR,
>
> Mirriam
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 1:41:29 PM GMT+3, Tutu Ngcaba <
> pan.afrikhan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Brother Elkins,
>
>
>
> The ICANN chairman Steve said some concern of internet shutdown will
> undermine the missions of Icann and the Afrinic and they two have the potential
> power to do something in return.
>
>
>
> The Afrinic Government Working Group AFGWG can work with the ICANN to
> achieve more mutlistakeholders talkings and meetings. This is what needs to
> be done in return.
>
> I ask the AFGWG to do some taking to the ICANN and they can meet our
> governments for education on economic important of Internet.
>
>
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Tutu Ngcaba
> Kwazulu Techno Hubs
> South Africa
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10 May 2017 12:53 p.m., "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za> wrote:
>
> I downloaded the complete video  from RIPE and watched it a few times. I
> was also watching live.
>
> Its large - but if you can do, download it and watch it.
>
> https://ripe74.ripe.net/archiv e/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti-
> Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Ration ale-20170508-171822.mp4
> <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archive/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti-Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Rationale-20170508-171822.mp4>
> '
>
>
>
> Then again, when the Chairman of ICANN stands up and says that ICANN can
> help.
>
> "Hi, my name is Steve Crocker, I am Chairman of ICANN and I'm here to help
> you. (Regarding) take out of the root the affected ccTLD names" and he then
> volunteered assistance from ICANN staff - also saying it would take between
> two and five years to get to a decision whether to proceed or not.
>
> The current policy concept does not go that far - but to me - certainly
> suggests that the idea of punitive actions against governments is worth
> looking at.
>
> I regard it like a nuclear bomb. When in the hands of sane people (RIR's
> and ICANN), it is a threat - to persuade bad actors to have second thoughts
> against cutting people off from access to the Internet. If governments
> choose to cut people off from access to the Internet for political reasons,
> to me this is undermining the core mission of ICANN and the RIR's, both of
> whom have the potential power to do something in return. We need to enable
> that power from being simply a potential to being ready for use and hope
> its never needed to be used.
>
>
>
> On 10/05/2017 11:01, Noah wrote:
>
> Mmmm on the contrary seems like most folk on the floor disagreed with the
> contraversial policy and its approach no matter how much the Arthors seek
> for better ways to improve it.
>
>
>
> Some suggested multistake holder engagement and in particular Leslie
> Daigle comments on the floor are worth taking into serious considerations
> by the way.
>
>
>
> Leslie Daigle of ISOC agrees that there is a problem. She has concerns but
> sounded to me more would like to see something. She just doesn't want to
> see dialogue being undermined by this policy.
>
> Perhaps talk is not enough?
>
>
>
>
> The best comment in my opinion was from the Alan Durand who reminded
> everyone what the real core mission of the RIR community is,  and that
> is....
>
>
>
> I'd say he was more worried about the policy being used for much more than
> it is currently intended for. (referenced to the colour of people's hair as
> a reason to cut them off the Internet).
>
>
> "To allocate resources and maintain the accuracy of the database".PERIOD.
> [1]
>
>
>
> Noah
>
>
>
> [1]I have had in the past folk state statements like "How some ome runs
> his network is none of anyones business and in that matter policing the
> network is none of AFRINICs business"
>
>
>
> On 10 May 2017 10:39 a.m., "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.c
> om <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
> Thanks Marcus,
>
>
>
> Just some feedback for the community.
>
>
>
> It's been a great experience here at RIPE and some of the ideas given and
> the extensive discussions following the presentation referred to by Marcus
> have been both useful and informative.
>
>
>
> Draft 2 will be submitted shortly very much in line with what I presented
> in that presentation - and before the 7 day deadline as per the PDP so we
> can discuss on that basis.
>
>
>
> Following the meeting in Nairobi, I suspect we will then be gathering
> still further input and further drafts will follow, if there is no
> consensus found on the floor for the draft 2 that will be submitted.
>
>
>
> I think for myself, the most important thing I have seen at RIPE so far,
> is the huge willingness by people from every walk of life to engage in
> dialog and discussion over this, and it was heartening to see both my own
> positions and the positions of those I was discussing with shift as
> explanations were given and questions were asked and answered.  Since
> giving that presentation I have barely had a minute to think as people
> approached me to talk this through - and I really hope to see such
> engagement in Nairobi, because it truly showed the benefit of a multi
> stakeholder approach where open dialog and communication can happen, even
> in the absence of agreement and in the face of controversial material where
> people hold strong and emotive views.
>
>
>
> I look forward to the discussions on the floor of the PDP and engaging
> with all of you to hear your thoughts and views and finding the right
> solution to the issue.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:48:42 PM
> *To:* rpd at afrinic.net; community-discuss at afrinic.net
> *Subject:* [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
> discussed at RIPE
>
>
>
> Dear Colleagues.
>
>
>
> You might want to see the presentation of the controversial draft
> anti-shutdown policy (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent RIPE
> meeting.  I found the questions/comments from the RIPE community similar to
> that shared by many on the RPD, mostly about the inappropriateness of such
> policy in our region? or any other for that matter.  Enjoy watching it.
>
>
>
> https://ripe74.ripe.net/archiv es/video/41/
> <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>
> <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>
> Archives &#8211; RIPE 74 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>
> ripe74.ripe.net
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
> ______________________________ _________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/community-discuss
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>
>
>
> ______________________________ _________________
>
> RPD mailing list
>
> RPD at afrinic.net
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/rpd <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
>
> mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590 <+27%2012%20807%200590>  Cell: +27.826010496 <+27%2082%20601%200496>
>
> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>
>
> ______________________________ _________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/community-discuss
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From mje at posix.co.za  Fri May 12 08:42:45 2017
From: mje at posix.co.za (Mark Elkins)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 10:42:45 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>

The PDP allows anyone to submit any ideas and policies, irrespective of
who they are, where they are from, and what their ideas are, in a free
exchange of ideas and in the name of freedom of expression and freedom
of speech.

Some policies are pretty straight forward, make lots of sense and should
simply be implemented. they don't need lots of discussion - more along
the lines of - "why didn't I think and suggest that?".

Other policies are simply way out and should be still-born - such as the
PDP-BIS proposal, which destroys a number of the qualities of how the
PDP currently runs.

The "Internet Shutdown" policy has caused discussion around the world.
This is proof of the multi-stakeholder approach at work (its being
argued by multiple stakeholders, both for and against). The very fact
that this policy has engendered so much debate does not indicate a
problem with the policy, rather, it shows that the process works and is
resulting in debate and discussion that is both constructive and healthy.


On 12/05/2017 09:43, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
> +1 Dear Mirriam and Badru
>
> Cela sera fix? par notre projet de politique PDP-BIS.
>
> This will be fixed by our PDP-BIS policy proposal.
>
> @Saul, je confirme que cette politique de shutdown est inopportune sur
> le PDP, c'est une v?ritable perte de temps, car d'autres politique
> ssont sur la table du PDP et personne n'a encore r?agit par rapport ?
> elles et on tourne autour d'une politique dont tout le monde sait
> qu'elle n'aboutira pas, et on nous avance comme argument le d?bat que
> ?a va susciter, c'est comme si on se moque de notre communaut? de
> techniciens. Nous ne sommes pas Politiciens, laissons cet aspect ?
> ceux qui en ont la comp?tence, pour en d?battre, et nous nous serons
> l? en appui ? leur d?cision. Dicsutons sur les choes qui feront
> avancer afrinic eet non celles qui lui cr?eront des probl?mes. JE
> voudrais inviter tous les membres de cette communaut? ? se concentrer
> sur les vrais missions d'Afrinic et d?batre de son avenir. Merci pour
> votre conmpr?hension.
>
>
> @Saul, I confirm that this shutdown policy is inappropriate on the
> PDP, it is a real waste of time because other policies are on the PDP
> table and nobody has yet reacted with them and we turn Around to  a
> policy that everyone knows will not succeed, and we are advanced as an
> argument the debate that will arouse, it is like we laugh at our
> community of technicians. We are not Politicians, we leave it to those
> who have the competence to debate it, and we will be there to support
> their decision. Let us discuss on things that will move AFRINIC
> forward instead of those that will create problems. I would like to
> invite all members of this community to focus on Afrinic's real
> missions and to discuss its future. Thank you for your understanding.
>
> Cordialement.
>
> Arnaud.
>
> 2017-05-12 7:10 GMT+00:00 Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za
> <mailto:saul at enetworks.co.za>>:
>
>     Hi,
>
>      
>
>     Please can you explain how this is an abuse of the RPD?
>
>      
>
>     We have a serious issue of internet shutdowns on our continent.
>     The impact that it has on education, the economy etc is immeasurable!
>
>     This should be of grace concern to all of us!
>
>      
>
>     The authors of the policy have stated numerous times that this is
>     an evolving proposal.
>
>      
>
>     The important thing is that it is encouraging global debate on how
>     to resolve this issue. THAT is what this proposal is about ? ways
>     to prevent this from happening.
>
>      
>
>     Whatever solutions we come up with ? but that can only happen with
>     this debate, so I don?t see how it?s a waist!
>
>      
>
>     Saul
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     *From:*Mirriam [mailto:mirriamlauren at yahoo.com
>     <mailto:mirriamlauren at yahoo.com>]
>     *Sent:* 11 May 2017 08:24 PM
>     *To:* Tutu Ngcaba <pan.afrikhan at gmail.com
>     <mailto:pan.afrikhan at gmail.com>>; Mark Elkins <mje at posix.co.za
>     <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>>
>     *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC
>     <community-discuss at afrinic.net
>     <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>; AfriNIC List
>     <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown
>     policy discussed at RIPE
>
>      
>
>     Hi All,
>
>      
>
>     I totally agree with what Badru has stated and I really hope the
>     PDP update policy proposal on the table before us can help to
>     improve the Afrinic policy development process and environment
>     notwithstanding quality of work so as to avoid such abuses of the pdp.
>
>      
>
>     KR,
>
>     Mirriam
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 1:41:29 PM GMT+3, Tutu Ngcaba
>     <pan.afrikhan at gmail.com <mailto:pan.afrikhan at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Brother Elkins,
>
>      
>
>     The ICANN chairman Steve said some concern of internet shutdown
>     will undermine the missions of Icann and the Afrinic and they two
>     have the potential power to do something in return. 
>
>      
>
>     The Afrinic Government Working Group AFGWG can work with the ICANN
>     to achieve more mutlistakeholders talkings and meetings. This is
>     what needs to be done in return.
>
>     I ask the AFGWG to do some taking to the ICANN and they can meet
>     our governments for education on economic important of Internet.
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     Best Regards,
>
>     Tutu Ngcaba
>     Kwazulu Techno Hubs
>     South Africa
>        
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     On 10 May 2017 12:53 p.m., "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za
>     <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>> wrote:
>
>         I downloaded the complete video  from RIPE and watched it a
>         few times. I was also watching live.
>
>         Its large - but if you can do, download it and watch it.
>
>         https://ripe74.ripe.net/archiv e/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti-
>         Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Ration ale-20170508-171822.mp4
>         <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archive/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti-Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Rationale-20170508-171822.mp4>'
>
>          
>
>         Then again, when the Chairman of ICANN stands up and says that
>         ICANN can help.
>
>         "Hi, my name is Steve Crocker, I am Chairman of ICANN and I'm
>         here to help you. (Regarding) take out of the root the
>         affected ccTLD names" and he then volunteered assistance from
>         ICANN staff - also saying it would take between two and five
>         years to get to a decision whether to proceed or not.
>
>         The current policy concept does not go that far - but to me -
>         certainly suggests that the idea of punitive actions against
>         governments is worth looking at.
>
>         I regard it like a nuclear bomb. When in the hands of sane
>         people (RIR's and ICANN), it is a threat - to persuade bad
>         actors to have second thoughts against cutting people off from
>         access to the Internet. If governments choose to cut people
>         off from access to the Internet for political reasons, to me
>         this is undermining the core mission of ICANN and the RIR's,
>         both of whom have the potential power to do something in
>         return. We need to enable that power from being simply a
>         potential to being ready for use and hope its never needed to
>         be used.
>
>          
>
>         On 10/05/2017 11:01, Noah wrote:
>
>             Mmmm on the contrary seems like most folk on the floor
>             disagreed with the contraversial policy and its approach
>             no matter how much the Arthors seek for better ways to
>             improve it.
>
>              
>
>             Some suggested multistake holder engagement and in
>             particular Leslie Daigle comments on the floor are worth
>             taking into serious considerations by the way.
>
>          
>
>         Leslie Daigle of ISOC agrees that there is a problem. She has
>         concerns but sounded to me more would like to see something.
>         She just doesn't want to see dialogue being undermined by this
>         policy.
>
>         Perhaps talk is not enough?
>
>
>
>
>             The best comment in my opinion was from the Alan Durand
>             who reminded everyone what the real core mission of the
>             RIR community is,  and that is....
>
>          
>
>         I'd say he was more worried about the policy being used for
>         much more than it is currently intended for. (referenced to
>         the colour of people's hair as a reason to cut them off the
>         Internet).
>
>
>             "To allocate resources and maintain the accuracy of the
>             database".PERIOD. [1]
>
>              
>
>             Noah
>
>              
>
>             [1]I have had in the past folk state statements like "How
>             some ome runs his network is none of anyones business and
>             in that matter policing the network is none of AFRINICs
>             business" 
>
>              
>
>             On 10 May 2017 10:39 a.m., "Andrew Alston"
>             <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.c om
>             <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
>                 Thanks Marcus,
>
>                  
>
>                 Just some feedback for the community.
>
>                  
>
>                 It's been a great experience here at RIPE and some of
>                 the ideas given and the extensive discussions
>                 following the presentation referred to by Marcus have
>                 been both useful and informative.
>
>                  
>
>                 Draft 2 will be submitted shortly very much in line
>                 with what I presented in that presentation - and
>                 before the 7 day deadline as per the PDP so we can
>                 discuss on that basis.
>
>                  
>
>                 Following the meeting in Nairobi, I suspect we will
>                 then be gathering still further input and further
>                 drafts will follow, if there is no consensus found on
>                 the floor for the draft 2 that will be submitted.
>
>                  
>
>                 I think for myself, the most important thing I have
>                 seen at RIPE so far, is the huge willingness by people
>                 from every walk of life to engage in dialog and
>                 discussion over this, and it was heartening to see
>                 both my own positions and the positions of those I was
>                 discussing with shift as explanations were given and
>                 questions were asked and answered.  Since giving that
>                 presentation I have barely had a minute to think as
>                 people approached me to talk this through - and I
>                 really hope to see such engagement in Nairobi, because
>                 it truly showed the benefit of a multi stakeholder
>                 approach where open dialog and communication can
>                 happen, even in the absence of agreement and in the
>                 face of controversial material where people hold
>                 strong and emotive views.
>
>                  
>
>                 I look forward to the discussions on the floor of the
>                 PDP and engaging with all of you to hear your thoughts
>                 and views and finding the right solution to the issue.
>
>                  
>
>                 Thanks
>
>                  
>
>                 Andrew
>
>                  
>
>                 Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>
>                 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                 *From:*Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com
>                 <mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>>
>                 *Sent:* Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:48:42 PM
>                 *To:* rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>;
>                 community-discuss at afrinic.net
>                 <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
>                 *Subject:* [Community-Discuss] Controversial
>                 anti-shutdown policy discussed at RIPE
>
>                  
>
>                 Dear Colleagues.
>
>                  
>
>                 You might want to see the presentation of the
>                 controversial draft anti-shutdown policy
>                 (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent RIPE
>                 meeting.  I found the questions/comments from the RIPE
>                 community similar to that shared by many on the RPD,
>                 mostly about the inappropriateness of such policy in
>                 our region? or any other for that matter.  Enjoy
>                 watching it.
>
>                  
>
>                 https://ripe74.ripe.net/archiv es/video/41/
>                 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>  
>
>                 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>
>                 	
>
>                 Archives &#8211; RIPE 74
>                 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>
>                 ripe74.ripe.net <http://ripe74.ripe.net>
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                 Thanks
>
>                  
>
>                  
>
>                 Marcus
>
>
>                 ______________________________ _________________
>                 Community-Discuss mailing list
>                 Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>                 <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>                 https://lists.afrinic.net/mail
>                 man/listinfo/community-discuss
>                 <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>
>
>
>             ______________________________ _________________
>
>             RPD mailing list
>
>             RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>
>             https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/rpd
>             <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>          
>
>         -- 
>
>         Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
>
>         mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>       Tel: +27.128070590 <tel:+27%2012%20807%200590>  Cell: +27.826010496 <tel:+27%2082%20601%200496>
>
>         For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>
>
>         ______________________________ _________________
>         Community-Discuss mailing list
>         Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>         <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>         https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/community-discuss
>         <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>
>      
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Community-Discuss mailing list
>     Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>     https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>     <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
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>     <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RPD mailing list
> RPD at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd

-- 
Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za

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From pan.afrikhan at gmail.com  Fri May 12 09:33:45 2017
From: pan.afrikhan at gmail.com (Tutu Ngcaba)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 12:33:45 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
Message-ID: <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>

No no no brother Elkins

I am not agree with you.

so many people condemn such policy other in ripe say it is stinking meaning
not good at all.

Only the Icann chairs is saying will support in that ripe video. But he is
not aware of challenges like why internet is such reason behind like
polical ones which is not technical.

Someone from France even say this bad policy will make government happy and
smile when ip address stop coming ..meaning no ip no internet ver good for
government which  like to use paper in the old school ways. It means
government is happy with such policy for it will give them power and excuse
to even make more internet shuts and blackout internet instead of the
government being scare.

So this message of you saying the bad policy attract many global debate is
wrong as the debate is negative not good all as so many people in RIPE
meeting asked so many questions whcih the Mrs.Andrew Alston only refuse to
answer and keep saying he interested in debate.

Even the zimbawabwe mugabe mentioning very bad publicity for the president
who am sure will shut that internet very fast if it causes political
problem. even the 1994 mention of people die even if internet is there
nothing will happen because it is politics with long history.

In syria the people die, in somalia they die and other places internet is
there or not... this is politics not technical stuffs.

So i do not the agree with you at all brother elkins.


Best Regards,

Tutu Ngcaba
Kwazulu Techno Hubs
South Africa


On 12 May 2017 11:43 a.m., "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za> wrote:

> The PDP allows anyone to submit any ideas and policies, irrespective of
> who they are, where they are from, and what their ideas are, in a free
> exchange of ideas and in the name of freedom of expression and freedom of
> speech.
>
> Some policies are pretty straight forward, make lots of sense and should
> simply be implemented. they don't need lots of discussion - more along the
> lines of - "why didn't I think and suggest that?".
>
> Other policies are simply way out and should be still-born - such as the
> PDP-BIS proposal, which destroys a number of the qualities of how the PDP
> currently runs.
>
> The "Internet Shutdown" policy has caused discussion around the world.
> This is proof of the multi-stakeholder approach at work (its being argued
> by multiple stakeholders, both for and against). The very fact that this
> policy has engendered so much debate does not indicate a problem with the
> policy, rather, it shows that the process works and is resulting in debate
> and discussion that is both constructive and healthy.
>
> On 12/05/2017 09:43, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>
> +1 Dear Mirriam and Badru
>
> Cela sera fix? par notre projet de politique PDP-BIS.
>
> This will be fixed by our PDP-BIS policy proposal.
>
> @Saul, je confirme que cette politique de shutdown est inopportune sur le
> PDP, c'est une v?ritable perte de temps, car d'autres politique ssont sur
> la table du PDP et personne n'a encore r?agit par rapport ? elles et on
> tourne autour d'une politique dont tout le monde sait qu'elle n'aboutira
> pas, et on nous avance comme argument le d?bat que ?a va susciter, c'est
> comme si on se moque de notre communaut? de techniciens. Nous ne sommes pas
> Politiciens, laissons cet aspect ? ceux qui en ont la comp?tence, pour en
> d?battre, et nous nous serons l? en appui ? leur d?cision. Dicsutons sur
> les choes qui feront avancer afrinic eet non celles qui lui cr?eront des
> probl?mes. JE voudrais inviter tous les membres de cette communaut? ? se
> concentrer sur les vrais missions d'Afrinic et d?batre de son avenir. Merci
> pour votre conmpr?hension.
>
>
> @Saul, I confirm that this shutdown policy is inappropriate on the PDP, it
> is a real waste of time because other policies are on the PDP table and
> nobody has yet reacted with them and we turn Around to  a policy that
> everyone knows will not succeed, and we are advanced as an argument the
> debate that will arouse, it is like we laugh at our community of
> technicians. We are not Politicians, we leave it to those who have the
> competence to debate it, and we will be there to support their decision. Let
> us discuss on things that will move AFRINIC forward instead of those that
> will create problems. I would like to invite all members of this
> community to focus on Afrinic's real missions and to discuss its future. Thank
> you for your understanding.
>
> Cordialement.
>
> Arnaud.
>
> 2017-05-12 7:10 GMT+00:00 Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za>:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> Please can you explain how this is an abuse of the RPD?
>>
>>
>>
>> We have a serious issue of internet shutdowns on our continent. The
>> impact that it has on education, the economy etc is immeasurable!
>>
>> This should be of grace concern to all of us!
>>
>>
>>
>> The authors of the policy have stated numerous times that this is an
>> evolving proposal.
>>
>>
>>
>> The important thing is that it is encouraging global debate on how to
>> resolve this issue. THAT is what this proposal is about ? ways to prevent
>> this from happening.
>>
>>
>>
>> Whatever solutions we come up with ? but that can only happen with this
>> debate, so I don?t see how it?s a waist!
>>
>>
>>
>> Saul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Mirriam [mailto:mirriamlauren at yahoo.com]
>> *Sent:* 11 May 2017 08:24 PM
>> *To:* Tutu Ngcaba <pan.afrikhan at gmail.com>; Mark Elkins <mje at posix.co.za>
>> *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>;
>> AfriNIC List <rpd at afrinic.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
>> discussed at RIPE
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>>
>>
>> I totally agree with what Badru has stated and I really hope the PDP
>> update policy proposal on the table before us can help to improve the
>> Afrinic policy development process and environment notwithstanding quality
>> of work so as to avoid such abuses of the pdp.
>>
>>
>>
>> KR,
>>
>> Mirriam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 1:41:29 PM GMT+3, Tutu Ngcaba <
>> pan.afrikhan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Brother Elkins,
>>
>>
>>
>> The ICANN chairman Steve said some concern of internet shutdown will
>> undermine the missions of Icann and the Afrinic and they two have the potential
>> power to do something in return.
>>
>>
>>
>> The Afrinic Government Working Group AFGWG can work with the ICANN to
>> achieve more mutlistakeholders talkings and meetings. This is what needs to
>> be done in return.
>>
>> I ask the AFGWG to do some taking to the ICANN and they can meet our
>> governments for education on economic important of Internet.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Tutu Ngcaba
>> Kwazulu Techno Hubs
>> South Africa
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 May 2017 12:53 p.m., "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za> wrote:
>>
>> I downloaded the complete video  from RIPE and watched it a few times. I
>> was also watching live.
>>
>> Its large - but if you can do, download it and watch it.
>>
>> https://ripe74.ripe.net/archiv e/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti-
>> Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Ration ale-20170508-171822.mp4
>> <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archive/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti-Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Rationale-20170508-171822.mp4>
>> '
>>
>>
>>
>> Then again, when the Chairman of ICANN stands up and says that ICANN can
>> help.
>>
>> "Hi, my name is Steve Crocker, I am Chairman of ICANN and I'm here to
>> help you. (Regarding) take out of the root the affected ccTLD names" and he
>> then volunteered assistance from ICANN staff - also saying it would take
>> between two and five years to get to a decision whether to proceed or not.
>>
>> The current policy concept does not go that far - but to me - certainly
>> suggests that the idea of punitive actions against governments is worth
>> looking at.
>>
>> I regard it like a nuclear bomb. When in the hands of sane people (RIR's
>> and ICANN), it is a threat - to persuade bad actors to have second thoughts
>> against cutting people off from access to the Internet. If governments
>> choose to cut people off from access to the Internet for political reasons,
>> to me this is undermining the core mission of ICANN and the RIR's, both of
>> whom have the potential power to do something in return. We need to enable
>> that power from being simply a potential to being ready for use and hope
>> its never needed to be used.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/05/2017 11:01, Noah wrote:
>>
>> Mmmm on the contrary seems like most folk on the floor disagreed with the
>> contraversial policy and its approach no matter how much the Arthors seek
>> for better ways to improve it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Some suggested multistake holder engagement and in particular Leslie
>> Daigle comments on the floor are worth taking into serious considerations
>> by the way.
>>
>>
>>
>> Leslie Daigle of ISOC agrees that there is a problem. She has concerns
>> but sounded to me more would like to see something. She just doesn't want
>> to see dialogue being undermined by this policy.
>>
>> Perhaps talk is not enough?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The best comment in my opinion was from the Alan Durand who reminded
>> everyone what the real core mission of the RIR community is,  and that
>> is....
>>
>>
>>
>> I'd say he was more worried about the policy being used for much more
>> than it is currently intended for. (referenced to the colour of people's
>> hair as a reason to cut them off the Internet).
>>
>>
>> "To allocate resources and maintain the accuracy of the database".PERIOD.
>> [1]
>>
>>
>>
>> Noah
>>
>>
>>
>> [1]I have had in the past folk state statements like "How some ome runs
>> his network is none of anyones business and in that matter policing the
>> network is none of AFRINICs business"
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 May 2017 10:39 a.m., "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.c
>> om <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Marcus,
>>
>>
>>
>> Just some feedback for the community.
>>
>>
>>
>> It's been a great experience here at RIPE and some of the ideas given and
>> the extensive discussions following the presentation referred to by Marcus
>> have been both useful and informative.
>>
>>
>>
>> Draft 2 will be submitted shortly very much in line with what I presented
>> in that presentation - and before the 7 day deadline as per the PDP so we
>> can discuss on that basis.
>>
>>
>>
>> Following the meeting in Nairobi, I suspect we will then be gathering
>> still further input and further drafts will follow, if there is no
>> consensus found on the floor for the draft 2 that will be submitted.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think for myself, the most important thing I have seen at RIPE so far,
>> is the huge willingness by people from every walk of life to engage in
>> dialog and discussion over this, and it was heartening to see both my own
>> positions and the positions of those I was discussing with shift as
>> explanations were given and questions were asked and answered.  Since
>> giving that presentation I have barely had a minute to think as people
>> approached me to talk this through - and I really hope to see such
>> engagement in Nairobi, because it truly showed the benefit of a multi
>> stakeholder approach where open dialog and communication can happen, even
>> in the absence of agreement and in the face of controversial material where
>> people hold strong and emotive views.
>>
>>
>>
>> I look forward to the discussions on the floor of the PDP and engaging
>> with all of you to hear your thoughts and views and finding the right
>> solution to the issue.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:48:42 PM
>> *To:* rpd at afrinic.net; community-discuss at afrinic.net
>> *Subject:* [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
>> discussed at RIPE
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Colleagues.
>>
>>
>>
>> You might want to see the presentation of the controversial draft
>> anti-shutdown policy (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent RIPE
>> meeting.  I found the questions/comments from the RIPE community similar to
>> that shared by many on the RPD, mostly about the inappropriateness of such
>> policy in our region? or any other for that matter.  Enjoy watching it.
>>
>>
>>
>> https://ripe74.ripe.net/archiv es/video/41/
>> <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>>
>> <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>>
>> Archives &#8211; RIPE 74 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>>
>> ripe74.ripe.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
>> ______________________________ _________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/community-discuss
>> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________ _________________
>>
>> RPD mailing list
>>
>> RPD at afrinic.net
>>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/rpd <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
>>
>> mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590 <+27%2012%20807%200590>  Cell: +27.826010496 <+27%2082%20601%200496>
>>
>> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>>
>>
>> ______________________________ _________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/community-discuss
>> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RPD mailing listRPD at afrinic.nethttps://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>
>
> --
> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africamje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590 <+27%2012%20807%200590>  Cell: +27.826010496 <+27%2082%20601%200496>
> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From kmw.elitcha at gmail.com  Fri May 12 09:46:09 2017
From: kmw.elitcha at gmail.com (abel ELITCHA)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 09:46:09 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
Message-ID: <CAN0q0kHCS02fxVLvbZOuL+814vk3o_PqtvWWr60H3qUsXb-WXw@mail.gmail.com>

Mark,

2017-05-12 8:42 GMT+00:00 Mark Elkins <mje at posix.co.za>:

> The "Internet Shutdown" policy has caused discussion around the world.
>
Much of an abuse which  serves personal agenda.

> This is proof of the multi-stakeholder approach at work (its being argued
> by multiple stakeholders, both for and against). The very fact that this
> policy has engendered so much debate does not indicate a problem with the
> policy, rather, it shows that the process works and is resulting in debate
> and discussion that is both constructive and healthy.
>
Does AFRINIC PDP  seeks general debates and discussions?  PDP everywhere
has scope and this debate is clearly out of scope.
You could get your "constructive and healthy " discussions and propoganda
 through  lists like community-discuss and get slot to present at meetings.

> --
> Mark James ELKINS
>
> Regards,

-- 
--Abel
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From owen at delong.com  Fri May 12 10:31:40 2017
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 03:31:40 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
	discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CAN0q0kHCS02fxVLvbZOuL+814vk3o_PqtvWWr60H3qUsXb-WXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CAN0q0kHCS02fxVLvbZOuL+814vk3o_PqtvWWr60H3qUsXb-WXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <227B30D0-85E4-4DAE-A5DC-56B7CF72EE34@delong.com>


> On May 12, 2017, at 02:46 , abel ELITCHA <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Mark,
> 
> 2017-05-12 8:42 GMT+00:00 Mark Elkins <mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>>:
> The "Internet Shutdown" policy has caused discussion around the world.
> 
> Much of an abuse which  serves personal agenda. 

Can you clarify or substantiate this claim? I?m not seeing it.

> This is proof of the multi-stakeholder approach at work (its being argued by multiple stakeholders, both for and against). The very fact that this policy has engendered so much debate does not indicate a problem with the policy, rather, it shows that the process works and is resulting in debate and discussion that is both constructive and healthy.
> 
> Does AFRINIC PDP  seeks general debates and discussions?  PDP everywhere has scope and this debate is clearly out of scope.
> You could get your "constructive and healthy " discussions and propoganda  through  lists like community-discuss and get slot to present at meetings. 

This debate is about an address issuance (or not) policy and is therefore very much in scope. You may argue that the larger issue of internet shutdowns are out of scope and that may well be, but a policy which seeks to modify address issuance criteria no matter what those criteria are based on is very much in scope for the PDP.

I?m not saying I support the policy or that I think it will achieve its goals if adopted. I?m actually neutral on the policy if not slightly opposed. (Speaking strictly as an individual community member and not in any way representing ARIN, the ARIN AC, my employer, the united States of America or any other group one may wish to lump me in to)

However, I simply cannot agree that the policy as written is out of scope no matter how much I question its efficacy or potential for adoption.

Owen

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From owen at delong.com  Fri May 12 10:41:16 2017
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 03:41:16 -0700
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
	discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F63927C3-2F5F-4532-8CDD-CAB7A543C309@delong.com>


> On May 12, 2017, at 02:33 , Tutu Ngcaba <pan.afrikhan at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> No no no brother Elkins
> 
> I am not agree with you.
> 
> so many people condemn such policy other in ripe say it is stinking meaning not good at all.
> 
> Only the Icann chairs is saying will support in that ripe video. But he is not aware of challenges like why internet is such reason behind like polical ones which is not technical.

The ICANN chair didn?t say he would support or oppose the policy from what I could see. He said that ICANN staff was available to assist in moving the policy through the global policy development process and/or to assist in drafting the policy or creating an ICANN policy working group to develop similar policy related to CCTLDs.

That?s very different from support.

> Someone from France even say this bad policy will make government happy and smile when ip address stop coming ..meaning no ip no internet ver good for government which  like to use paper in the old school ways. It means government is happy with such policy for it will give them power and excuse to even make more internet shuts and blackout internet instead of the government being scare.

For draconian regimes that prefer to block access to the internet by their citizens, such a claim should not be so easily dismissed. There could well be validity to this point of view and it would not surprise me if some governments did embrace the lack of address resources as yet another convenient control mechanism.

> So this message of you saying the bad policy attract many global debate is wrong as the debate is negative not good all as so many people in RIPE meeting asked so many questions whcih the Mrs.Andrew Alston only refuse to answer and keep saying he interested in debate.

It has attracted debate. I won?t argue the quality of the debate it has attracted, but it has called attention to the issue in question and with this type of issue, gaining attention is almost always good regardless of the type of attention obtained. People are now discussing internet shutdowns as a much more serious issue than before. That is a positive sign of progress on the actual issue.

Unfortunately, the actual issue is out of scope for the PDP. The PDP really is the wrong tool for this job. However, I think that is partially a reflection of the concept that if the only tool you have is a hammer, then every fastener looks like a nail.

> Even the zimbawabwe mugabe mentioning very bad publicity for the president who am sure will shut that internet very fast if it causes political problem. even the 1994 mention of people die even if internet is there nothing will happen because it is politics with long history.

The democratization of communications and communications technologies are not a panacea for solving these problems, but they are a very important element in any workable solution. People cannot solve problems they do not know exist. Without democratized communications capabilities, it is much easier for ?governments? to limit the visibility of such problems on the larger world stage.

> In syria the people die, in somalia they die and other places internet is there or not... this is politics not technical stuffs.

The boundary between politics and technical is not nearly as black and white as you would imply in this statement. As I said in the previous paragraph, internet is not a panacea, but it is an important element in solving these problems.

> So i do not the agree with you at all brother elkins.

What would you propose as a better alternative to the current open multi-stakeholder process?

Owen

> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Tutu Ngcaba
> Kwazulu Techno Hubs
> South Africa
>    
> 
> On 12 May 2017 11:43 a.m., "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>> wrote:
> The PDP allows anyone to submit any ideas and policies, irrespective of who they are, where they are from, and what their ideas are, in a free exchange of ideas and in the name of freedom of expression and freedom of speech.
> Some policies are pretty straight forward, make lots of sense and should simply be implemented. they don't need lots of discussion - more along the lines of - "why didn't I think and suggest that?".
> 
> Other policies are simply way out and should be still-born - such as the PDP-BIS proposal, which destroys a number of the qualities of how the PDP currently runs.
> The "Internet Shutdown" policy has caused discussion around the world. This is proof of the multi-stakeholder approach at work (its being argued by multiple stakeholders, both for and against). The very fact that this policy has engendered so much debate does not indicate a problem with the policy, rather, it shows that the process works and is resulting in debate and discussion that is both constructive and healthy.
> 
> On 12/05/2017 09:43, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>> +1 Dear Mirriam and Badru
>> 
>> Cela sera fix? par notre projet de politique PDP-BIS. 
>> 
>> This will be fixed by our PDP-BIS policy proposal.
>> 
>> @Saul, je confirme que cette politique de shutdown est inopportune sur le PDP, c'est une v?ritable perte de temps, car d'autres politique ssont sur la table du PDP et personne n'a encore r?agit par rapport ? elles et on tourne autour d'une politique dont tout le monde sait qu'elle n'aboutira pas, et on nous avance comme argument le d?bat que ?a va susciter, c'est comme si on se moque de notre communaut? de techniciens. Nous ne sommes pas Politiciens, laissons cet aspect ? ceux qui en ont la comp?tence, pour en d?battre, et nous nous serons l? en appui ? leur d?cision. Dicsutons sur les choes qui feront avancer afrinic eet non celles qui lui cr?eront des probl?mes. JE voudrais inviter tous les membres de cette communaut? ? se concentrer sur les vrais missions d'Afrinic et d?batre de son avenir. Merci pour votre conmpr?hension. 
>> 
>> 
>> @Saul, I confirm that this shutdown policy is inappropriate on the PDP, it is a real waste of time because other policies are on the PDP table and nobody has yet reacted with them and we turn Around to  a policy that everyone knows will not succeed, and we are advanced as an argument the debate that will arouse, it is like we laugh at our community of technicians. We are not Politicians, we leave it to those who have the competence to debate it, and we will be there to support their decision. Let us discuss on things that will move AFRINIC forward instead of those that will create problems. I would like to invite all members of this community to focus on Afrinic's real missions and to discuss its future. Thank you for your understanding.
>> 
>> Cordialement.
>> 
>> Arnaud.
>> 
>> 2017-05-12 7:10 GMT+00:00 Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za <mailto:saul at enetworks.co.za>>:
>> Hi,
>> 
>>  
>> Please can you explain how this is an abuse of the RPD?
>> 
>>  
>> We have a serious issue of internet shutdowns on our continent. The impact that it has on education, the economy etc is immeasurable!
>> 
>> This should be of grace concern to all of us!
>> 
>>  
>> The authors of the policy have stated numerous times that this is an evolving proposal.
>> 
>>  
>> The important thing is that it is encouraging global debate on how to resolve this issue. THAT is what this proposal is about ? ways to prevent this from happening.
>> 
>>  
>> Whatever solutions we come up with ? but that can only happen with this debate, so I don?t see how it?s a waist!
>> 
>>  
>> Saul
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> From: Mirriam [mailto:mirriamlauren at yahoo.com <mailto:mirriamlauren at yahoo.com>] 
>> Sent: 11 May 2017 08:24 PM
>> To: Tutu Ngcaba <pan.afrikhan at gmail.com <mailto:pan.afrikhan at gmail.com>>; Mark Elkins <mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>>
>> Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>; AfriNIC List <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
>> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy discussed at RIPE
>> 
>>  
>> Hi All,
>> 
>>  
>> I totally agree with what Badru has stated and I really hope the PDP update policy proposal on the table before us can help to improve the Afrinic policy development process and environment notwithstanding quality of work so as to avoid such abuses of the pdp.
>> 
>>  
>> KR,
>> 
>> Mirriam
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 1:41:29 PM GMT+3, Tutu Ngcaba <pan.afrikhan at gmail.com <mailto:pan.afrikhan at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Brother Elkins,
>> 
>>  
>> The ICANN chairman Steve said some concern of internet shutdown will undermine the missions of Icann and the Afrinic and they two have the potential power to do something in return. 
>> 
>>  
>> The Afrinic Government Working Group AFGWG can work with the ICANN to achieve more mutlistakeholders talkings and meetings. This is what needs to be done in return.
>> 
>> I ask the AFGWG to do some taking to the ICANN and they can meet our governments for education on economic important of Internet.
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> Best Regards,
>> 
>> Tutu Ngcaba
>> Kwazulu Techno Hubs
>> South Africa
>>    
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> On 10 May 2017 12:53 p.m., "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>> wrote:
>> 
>> I downloaded the complete video  from RIPE and watched it a few times. I was also watching live.
>> 
>> Its large - but if you can do, download it and watch it.
>> 
>> https://ripe74.ripe.net/archiv e/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti- Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Ration ale-20170508-171822.mp4 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archive/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti-Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Rationale-20170508-171822.mp4>'
>> 
>>  
>> Then again, when the Chairman of ICANN stands up and says that ICANN can help.
>> 
>> "Hi, my name is Steve Crocker, I am Chairman of ICANN and I'm here to help you. (Regarding) take out of the root the affected ccTLD names" and he then volunteered assistance from ICANN staff - also saying it would take between two and five years to get to a decision whether to proceed or not.
>> 
>> The current policy concept does not go that far - but to me - certainly suggests that the idea of punitive actions against governments is worth looking at.
>> 
>> I regard it like a nuclear bomb. When in the hands of sane people (RIR's and ICANN), it is a threat - to persuade bad actors to have second thoughts against cutting people off from access to the Internet. If governments choose to cut people off from access to the Internet for political reasons, to me this is undermining the core mission of ICANN and the RIR's, both of whom have the potential power to do something in return. We need to enable that power from being simply a potential to being ready for use and hope its never needed to be used.
>> 
>>  
>> On 10/05/2017 11:01, Noah wrote:
>> 
>> Mmmm on the contrary seems like most folk on the floor disagreed with the contraversial policy and its approach no matter how much the Arthors seek for better ways to improve it.
>> 
>>  
>> Some suggested multistake holder engagement and in particular Leslie Daigle comments on the floor are worth taking into serious considerations by the way.
>> 
>>  
>> Leslie Daigle of ISOC agrees that there is a problem. She has concerns but sounded to me more would like to see something. She just doesn't want to see dialogue being undermined by this policy.
>> 
>> Perhaps talk is not enough?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The best comment in my opinion was from the Alan Durand who reminded everyone what the real core mission of the RIR community is,  and that is....
>> 
>>  
>> I'd say he was more worried about the policy being used for much more than it is currently intended for. (referenced to the colour of people's hair as a reason to cut them off the Internet).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> "To allocate resources and maintain the accuracy of the database".PERIOD. [1]
>> 
>>  
>> Noah
>> 
>>  
>> [1]I have had in the past folk state statements like "How some ome runs his network is none of anyones business and in that matter policing the network is none of AFRINICs business" 
>> 
>>  
>> On 10 May 2017 10:39 a.m., "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.c om <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Marcus,
>> 
>>  
>> Just some feedback for the community.
>> 
>>  
>> It's been a great experience here at RIPE and some of the ideas given and the extensive discussions following the presentation referred to by Marcus have been both useful and informative.
>> 
>>  
>> Draft 2 will be submitted shortly very much in line with what I presented in that presentation - and before the 7 day deadline as per the PDP so we can discuss on that basis.
>> 
>>  
>> Following the meeting in Nairobi, I suspect we will then be gathering still further input and further drafts will follow, if there is no consensus found on the floor for the draft 2 that will be submitted.
>> 
>>  
>> I think for myself, the most important thing I have seen at RIPE so far, is the huge willingness by people from every walk of life to engage in dialog and discussion over this, and it was heartening to see both my own positions and the positions of those I was discussing with shift as explanations were given and questions were asked and answered.  Since giving that presentation I have barely had a minute to think as people approached me to talk this through - and I really hope to see such engagement in Nairobi, because it truly showed the benefit of a multi stakeholder approach where open dialog and communication can happen, even in the absence of agreement and in the face of controversial material where people hold strong and emotive views.
>> 
>>  
>> I look forward to the discussions on the floor of the PDP and engaging with all of you to hear your thoughts and views and finding the right solution to the issue.
>> 
>>  
>> Thanks
>> 
>>  
>> Andrew
>> 
>>  
>> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>> From: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com <mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:48:42 PM
>> To: rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>; community-discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
>> Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy discussed at RIPE
>> 
>>  
>> Dear Colleagues.
>> 
>>  
>> You might want to see the presentation of the controversial draft anti-shutdown policy (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent RIPE meeting.  I found the questions/comments from the RIPE community similar to that shared by many on the RPD, mostly about the inappropriateness of such policy in our region? or any other for that matter.  Enjoy watching it.
>> 
>>  
>> https://ripe74.ripe.net/archiv es/video/41/ <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>  
>> 
>>  <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>	
>> Archives &#8211; RIPE 74 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>> ripe74.ripe.net <http://ripe74.ripe.net/>
>>  
>>  
>> Thanks
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> Marcus
>> 
>> 
>> ______________________________ _________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>> 
>> 
>> ______________________________ _________________
>> RPD mailing list
>> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/rpd <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>>  
>> -- 
>> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
>> mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>       Tel: +27.128070590 <tel:+27%2012%20807%200590>  Cell: +27.826010496 <tel:+27%2082%20601%200496>
>> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za <https://ftth.posix.co.za/>
>> 
>> ______________________________ _________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>>  
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> RPD mailing list
>> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
> 
> -- 
> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
> mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>       Tel: +27.128070590 <tel:+27%2012%20807%200590>  Cell: +27.826010496 <tel:+27%2082%20601%200496>
> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za <https://ftth.posix.co.za/>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss

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From kmw.elitcha at gmail.com  Fri May 12 12:08:11 2017
From: kmw.elitcha at gmail.com (abel ELITCHA)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 12:08:11 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <227B30D0-85E4-4DAE-A5DC-56B7CF72EE34@delong.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CAN0q0kHCS02fxVLvbZOuL+814vk3o_PqtvWWr60H3qUsXb-WXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <227B30D0-85E4-4DAE-A5DC-56B7CF72EE34@delong.com>
Message-ID: <CAN0q0kHy5PArhvtcBu5=3pm77_tnQ-X25iB+N0NROyvSmSi7xQ@mail.gmail.com>

2017-05-12 10:31 GMT+00:00 Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>:

>
> On May 12, 2017, at 02:46 , abel ELITCHA <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> 2017-05-12 8:42 GMT+00:00 Mark Elkins <mje at posix.co.za>:
>
>> The "Internet Shutdown" policy has caused discussion around the world.
>>
> Much of an abuse which  serves personal agenda.
>
>
> Can you clarify or substantiate this claim? I?m not seeing it.
>

Welcome into this discussion.. much has been said and if  you don't see, it
will come...


>
> This is proof of the multi-stakeholder approach at work (its being argued
>> by multiple stakeholders, both for and against). The very fact that this
>> policy has engendered so much debate does not indicate a problem with the
>> policy, rather, it shows that the process works and is resulting in debate
>> and discussion that is both constructive and healthy.
>>
> Does AFRINIC PDP  seeks general debates and discussions?  PDP everywhere
> has scope and this debate is clearly out of scope.
> You could get your "constructive and healthy " discussions and propoganda
>  through  lists like community-discuss and get slot to present at meetings.
>
>
> This debate is about an address issuance (or not) policy and is therefore
> very much in scope.
>

No Owen, What issue are we solving? The actual debate is about how to deal
with governments shutting down free and open access to the internet.
The problem statement says:

"
1. Summary of the problem being addressed by this proposal

Over the last few years we have seen more and more governments shutting
down the free and open access to the internet in order to push political
and other agendas.  These shutdowns have been shown to cause economic
damage and hurt the citizens of the affected countries.
"
plus...
"
2. Summary of how this proposal addresses the problem

While the authors of this policy acknowledge that what is proposed is
draconian in nature, we feel that the time has come for action to be taken,
rather than just bland statements that have shown to have little or no
effect.

"
So,, please...


You may argue that the larger issue of internet shutdowns are out of scope
> and that may well be, but a policy which seeks to modify address issuance
> criteria no matter what those criteria are based on is very much in scope
> for the PDP.
>
> I?m not saying I support the policy or that I think it will achieve its
> goals if adopted. I?m actually neutral on the policy if not slightly
> opposed. (Speaking strictly as an individual community member and not in
> any way representing ARIN, the ARIN AC, my employer, the united States of
> America or any other group one may wish to lump me in to)
>
> However, I simply cannot agree that the policy as written is out of scope
> no matter how much I question its efficacy or potential for adoption.
>
> Owen
>
>


-- 
--Abel
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From pan.afrikhan at gmail.com  Fri May 12 13:06:24 2017
From: pan.afrikhan at gmail.com (Tutu Ngcaba)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 16:06:24 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <940429f7-cb73-4b52-ab32-be202619d9ef@Spark>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <940429f7-cb73-4b52-ab32-be202619d9ef@Spark>
Message-ID: <CADu9AejyVsNm_QzckTmZPNUtQM03wFutjKHHaoBOeUnV6it_Qg@mail.gmail.com>

Brother David Conrad

I thank you for a long email and explaination which i will 100% agree with
you David.

I will not respond now to btother Owen as you got idea i was about to say
about government of our Africa which is angry at the Afrinic actionz and
decide to punish ISP furthers which makes worse for end user.

You know even the government can deny you license to work as ISP or Mobile
company when some people will use social media badly to send the message
which will cause chaos.

So the people of this proposal clearly they dont even think how it impact
the internet freedom itselft. Very sad.


Best Regards,

Tutu Ngcaba
Kwazulu Techno Hubs
South Africa


On 12 May 2017 3:36 p.m., "David Conrad" <drc at virtualized.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> While I am ICANN's CTO, in this context I speak only for myself, but do so
> with a bit of background in creating and running a Regional Internet
> Registry and formerly being responsible for the IANA functions. I have
> hesitated to comment on this thread as I am not a resource holder in the
> AfriNIC region, but at the suggestion that ICANN can "help", I felt
> compelled to say something.
>
> Then again, when the Chairman of ICANN stands up and says that ICANN can
> help.
>
> "Hi, my name is Steve Crocker, I am Chairman of ICANN and I'm here to help
> you. (Regarding) take out of the root the affected ccTLD names" and he then
> volunteered assistance from ICANN staff - also saying it would take between
> two and five years to get to a decision whether to proceed or not.
>
> I believe Dr. Crocker was attempting to point out that developing this
> sort of policy will require a very (very) unlikely consensus of a large
> array of stakeholders (including governments) and it will take a very
> (very) long time to get to a point where the policy would even be
> considered, much less implemented.
>
> For a bit of context, I believe the last PDP in the ccNSO (the group at
> ICANN that develops policy for ccTLDs) took about 9 years (depending on how
> you measure). Perhaps relevantly, there is no policy to remove a ccTLD from
> the root (aka "retiring the ccTLD") and the ccTLD community is now working
> on the policy to do just that. Personally, I'd be surprised if that PDP
> took less time.
>
> However, to be clear, if a stakeholder in the ICANN community would like
> to make a proposal along these lines, the ICANN organization's job is to
> facilitate the policy definition process for that proposal, regardless of
> whether we (ICANN staff) think the proposal will ever or could ever get
> consensus.
>
> The current policy concept does not go that far - but to me - certainly
> suggests that the idea of punitive actions against governments is worth
> looking at.
>
> IMHO, it's worth looking at only in the sense of "here is an example of a
> really bad idea."
>
> The concept that a private organization providing a service in the public
> interest at the direction of the community for the benefit of the community
> can apply punitive actions against a governments, some of which are members
> of that community, is a great way to make that private organization
> irrelevant.
>
> If AfriNIC chooses to refuse to allocate address space in response to a
> valid request as a punitive measure, they are violating the basic tenets by
> which AfriNIC was created. The RIRs are a resource distribution mechanism
> that serves as a way of avoiding a myriad of bilateral arrangements that
> would be necessary to document which network operator holds/announces which
> addresses. The RIRs are NOT a police force and have no mandate to punish
> governments. An attempt to convert AfriNIC into the Internet police will
> result in a fracturing of the rough consensus by which AfriNIC exists.
>
> Further, this proposal, if enacted, will likely cause network operators in
> countries impacted by a shutdown to be forced to choose between abiding by
> the laws of their country and the policies of AfriNIC. If a government
> imposes a shutdown and is punished by AfriNIC, that government may choose
> to squat on address space and pass laws that force ISPs within that country
> to abide by that squatting or they'll simply go to the secondary market. In
> both cases, this proposal risks making AfriNIC irrelevant and/or damaging
> the global distributed registration database. Never forget participation in
> the RIR system is entirely voluntary -- it only works because network
> operators agrees it works. Make it challenging for those network operators
> and they'll find other ways to have their needs met.
>
> FWIW, while I personally understand the concerns that led to the
> anti-shutdown proposal, I believe the concept of using AfriNIC as a weapon
> to punish governments is fundamentally flawed.
>
> Regards,
> -drc
> (speaking only for myself)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RPD mailing list
> RPD at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>
>
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From noah at neo.co.tz  Fri May 12 16:38:26 2017
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 19:38:26 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Opening of e-voting and public comments
In-Reply-To: <CAHm7s1ROYy7qEE6tQr6Cpp3YMJvTVdpOL3j-ZK2RLJ2VHcO15Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHm7s1ROYy7qEE6tQr6Cpp3YMJvTVdpOL3j-ZK2RLJ2VHcO15Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqgTWZrmjjv3=NNJFfpVNyRCBQdUa8YhGfMSmH=kLv9h-Oi0g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Nomcom,

If I may, what is not happening.

I have read emails from folk on mailing list complaining about the slate
timelime and someone also noted on some issue with nomination system which
had issues which AFRINIC had to resolve.

Folks also queried the issue of not having comment period before online
voting start, no response has ever come from nomcom to clarify.

Then we hard candidates who never recieved nomination confirmations and
nomcom still kept silent.

Today is 12th April and its already late and no response this far.

There has been no public response from nomcom whatsover?

Noah

On 25 Apr 2017 2:51 p.m., "serge ilunga" <sergekbk at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Nomcom,
>
> I can under https://www.afrinic.net/fr/community/elections/bod-
> election/process, section 3: election time line:
>
> 12 May 2017 End of review period for received nominations
> 12 May 2017 Announcement of final candidate slate
> 12 May 2017 Opening of public comment period
> 12 May 2017 Open e-voting (& appointment of proxies)
> Opening of public comments and e-voting will take place the same day.
>
> I think that it would be better to take some time for public comments
> before opening the e-vote.
> Otherwise what is the purpose of public comment. Which I do understand is
> to give Member's time to assess candidate.
>
> Kind Regards.
>
>
> *Serge ILUNGA KABWIKA*
> *Skype: sergekbk*
> *Cell: +243814443160 <0814%20443%20160>*
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From ish at lsl.digital  Fri May 12 18:37:36 2017
From: ish at lsl.digital (Ish Sookun)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 22:37:36 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <844d2a14-4196-2e89-bb55-a9b33fff99ee@lsl.digital>

Hi Mirriam,

On 11/05/17 22:23, Mirriam wrote:
> I totally agree with what Badru has stated and I really hope the PDP update policy proposal on the table before us can help to improve the Afrinic policy development process and environment notwithstanding quality of work so as to avoid such abuses of the pdp.

In what manner is the "anti-shutdown" proposal an abuse of the pdp?

Regards,

Ish Sookun



From ish at lsl.digital  Fri May 12 18:55:35 2017
From: ish at lsl.digital (Ish Sookun)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 22:55:35 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d0359685-63d0-d140-4c82-5914670f4a96@lsl.digital>

Hi Arnaud,

On 12/05/17 11:43, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
> 
> @Saul, I confirm that this shutdown policy is inappropriate on the PDP, it
> is a real waste of time because other policies are on the PDP table and
> nobody has yet reacted with them [...]

If there are other policies on the PDP table to which nobody has reacted
yet then don't you think those policies are not useful as nobody is
interested?

> everyone knows will not succeed, and we are advanced as an argument the
> debate that will arouse, it is like we laugh at our community of
> technicians. 

I feel that this part of your comment is a bit harsh. The
"anti-shutdown" proposal has probably garnered more attention from the
community than the other policies to which you mentioned nobody reacted.
This shows that people have a concern about the topic, some of them are
in favour of the proposal while some of them oppose it.

> We are not Politicians, we leave it to those who have the
> competence to debate it, and we will be there to support their decision. 

I believe we have reached a point where there is an "anti-shutdown"
policy on the PDP table because of actions by politicians.

Regards,

Ish Sookun





From ish at lsl.digital  Fri May 12 19:02:54 2017
From: ish at lsl.digital (Ish Sookun)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 23:02:54 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b6f19add-4b78-3da7-b9fe-f07790ed5609@lsl.digital>

Hi Tutu,

On 12/05/17 13:33, Tutu Ngcaba wrote:
> Only the Icann chairs is saying will support in that ripe video. But he is
> not aware of challenges like why internet is such reason behind like
> polical ones which is not technical.

Are you saying the the ICANN chair is wrong?

Regards,

Ish Sookun



From ish at lsl.digital  Fri May 12 19:27:29 2017
From: ish at lsl.digital (Ish Sookun)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 23:27:29 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CAN0q0kHy5PArhvtcBu5=3pm77_tnQ-X25iB+N0NROyvSmSi7xQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CAN0q0kHCS02fxVLvbZOuL+814vk3o_PqtvWWr60H3qUsXb-WXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <227B30D0-85E4-4DAE-A5DC-56B7CF72EE34@delong.com>
 <CAN0q0kHy5PArhvtcBu5=3pm77_tnQ-X25iB+N0NROyvSmSi7xQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4794a5f3-2336-fec8-d34c-5aa1dd13dcb7@lsl.digital>

Hi Abel,

On 12/05/17 16:08, abel ELITCHA wrote:
> No Owen, What issue are we solving? The actual debate is about how to deal
> with governments shutting down free and open access to the internet.
> The problem statement says:
> 
> "
> 1. Summary of the problem being addressed by this proposal
> 
> Over the last few years we have seen more and more governments shutting
> down the free and open access to the internet in order to push political
> and other agendas.  These shutdowns have been shown to cause economic
> damage and hurt the citizens of the affected countries.

I quote Afrinic's mission statement [1]:

	"To serve the African community by providing professional and efficient
management of Internet number resources, *supporting Internet technology
usage and development*, and promoting a participative and
multi-stakeholder approach to Internet self-governance."

Internet shutdowns negatively impact ? internet technology usage and
development ?.

Regards,

Ish Sookun

[1] https://afrinic.net/en/library/policies/current/844-mission



From wale at forum.org.ng  Fri May 12 19:45:34 2017
From: wale at forum.org.ng (Wale Adedokun)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 19:45:34 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Board Election 2017: Final Candidate Slate
Message-ID: <86003247.29609.1494618334204.JavaMail.zimbra@forum.org.ng>

Dear Colleagues,
NomCom2017 is pleased to announce the following final candidate slate for the open seats on the AFRINIC Board:
Indian Ocean
1.	Subramanian Moonesamy
2.	Krishna Seeburn
3.	Kaleem Ahmed Usmani
4.	Lala Andriamampianina
Regional Independent 
1.	Andrew Alston
2.	Daniel Yakmut
3.	Serge Ilunga Kabwika
Central Africa
1.	Ngnoulaye Janvier
2.	Bope Domilongo Christian 
 
Election will be held during the Annual General Members' Meeting (AGMM) to be held in Nairobi on 01 June 2017.
 
Members that will not be able to attend and/or vote physically at the AGMM are informed that there is an option for electronic voting, which will start on 19th May 2017 until 1st June 2017 and will be conducted through the MyAFRINIC portal - https://my.afrinic.net. 

Members can also opt to appoint a proxy to attend the AGMM and participate on the member?s behalf, including voting in the board election and all other matters at the AGMM.
 
More information is available at: http://www.afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process?start=2
 
For any queries or clarification, please contact the nominations committee by email to nomcom2017@ afrinic. net
 
2017 Nominations Committee


PS - Candidate profile and public comments pages will be announced separately






From wale at forum.org.ng  Fri May 12 19:48:01 2017
From: wale at forum.org.ng (Wale Adedokun)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 19:48:01 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] ASO-AC 2017: Final Candidate Slate
Message-ID: <1868256070.29617.1494618481418.JavaMail.zimbra@forum.org.ng>


Dear Colleagues,
NomCom20176 would like to announce the following final candidate slate for the vacant position on ASO AC/NRO NC.

1.	Mukhangu Noah Maina
2.	Mark Elkins
3.	Douglas Oyango    

Election will be held during the AFRINIC-26 public policy meeting that will be held in Nairobi on 1st June 2017.

More information is available at: http://www.afrinic.net/en/community/elections/nro-aso-election?showall=1

For any queries or clarification, please contact the nominations committee by email to nomcom2017@ afrinic.net
 
2017 Nominations Committee

PS - Candidate profile and public comments pages will be announced separately



From wale at forum.org.ng  Fri May 12 19:58:35 2017
From: wale at forum.org.ng (Wale Adedokun)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 19:58:35 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] GC 2017: Final Candidate Slate
Message-ID: <1862920604.29649.1494619115544.JavaMail.zimbra@forum.org.ng>

Dear Colleagues,

Following the call for nominations for one Governance Committee position up for election, to serve a three-year term from January 2018 to December 2020

NomCom2017 would like to announce that only one nomination was received and consequently approved towards the position for the vacant seat on the AFRINIC Governance Committee(GC).

The candidate is Abdalla Omari from Kenya

Election will be held during the AFRINIC-26 public policy meeting that will be held in Nairobi  on 1st June 2017.
 
https://www.afrinic.net/en/community/elections/1889-election-and-nomination-process
 
For any queries or clarification, please contact the nominations committee by email to nomcom2017@ afrinic.net
 
2017 Nominations Committee

PS - Candidate profile and public comments pages will be announced separately




From nkurunziza1999 at yahoo.fr  Sat May 13 10:09:15 2017
From: nkurunziza1999 at yahoo.fr (Jean Paul NKURUNZIZA)
Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 10:09:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Board Election 2017: Final Candidate Slate
In-Reply-To: <86003247.29609.1494618334204.JavaMail.zimbra@forum.org.ng>
References: <86003247.29609.1494618334204.JavaMail.zimbra@forum.org.ng>
Message-ID: <2022162096.377763.1494670155666@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi ,?
Thank you for sharing.
Best?NKURUNZIZA Jean Paul 

TRAINER IN COMPUTING AND INTERNET POLICY

?ISOC BURUNDI : VICE PRESIDENT 

R?seau des T?l?centres Communautaires du Burundi : Pr?sident

?Burundi Youth Training Centre : Secr?taire G?n?ral 

 Skype : jpnkurunziz 

 Facebook :? http://www.facebook.com/jeanpaul.nkurunziza
? 
Twitter : @nkurunzizajp

Linkedin : linkedin.com/in/jean-paul-nkurunziza-88217235

Tel : +257 79 981459 

    Le Vendredi 12 mai 2017 21h46, Wale Adedokun <wale at forum.org.ng> a ?crit :
 

 Dear Colleagues,
NomCom2017 is pleased to announce the following final candidate slate for the open seats on the AFRINIC Board:
Indian Ocean
1.??? Subramanian Moonesamy
2.??? Krishna Seeburn
3.??? Kaleem Ahmed Usmani
4.??? Lala Andriamampianina
Regional Independent 
1.??? Andrew Alston
2.??? Daniel Yakmut
3.??? Serge Ilunga Kabwika
Central Africa
1.??? Ngnoulaye Janvier
2.??? Bope Domilongo Christian 
 
Election will be held during the Annual General Members' Meeting (AGMM) to be held in Nairobi on 01 June 2017.
 
Members that will not be able to attend and/or vote physically at the AGMM are informed that there is an option for electronic voting, which will start on 19th May 2017 until 1st June 2017 and will be conducted through the MyAFRINIC portal - https://my.afrinic.net. 

Members can also opt to appoint a proxy to attend the AGMM and participate on the member?s behalf, including voting in the board election and all other matters at the AGMM.
 
More information is available at: http://www.afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process?start=2
 
For any queries or clarification, please contact the nominations committee by email to nomcom2017@ afrinic. net
 
2017 Nominations Committee


PS - Candidate profile and public comments pages will be announced separately




_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss


   
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From nkurunziza1999 at yahoo.fr  Sat May 13 18:42:44 2017
From: nkurunziza1999 at yahoo.fr (Jean Paul NKURUNZIZA)
Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 18:42:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Introduction
References: <1002735377.748688.1494700964352.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1002735377.748688.1494700964352@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi all, 

This is Jean Paul from Burundi.I am interested in Internet policy in general.
I am new to this mailing list and I am sure I will be benefiting of your rich debate on this mailing list.
Best
?NKURUNZIZA Jean Paul 

TRAINER IN COMPUTING AND INTERNET POLICY

?ISOC BURUNDI : VICE PRESIDENT 

R?seau des T?l?centres Communautaires du Burundi : Pr?sident

?Burundi Youth Training Centre : Secr?taire G?n?ral 

 Skype : jpnkurunziz 

 Facebook :? http://www.facebook.com/jeanpaul.nkurunziza
? 
Twitter : @nkurunzizajp

Linkedin : linkedin.com/in/jean-paul-nkurunziza-88217235

Tel : +257 79 981459
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From ish at lsl.digital  Sat May 13 19:43:55 2017
From: ish at lsl.digital (Ish Sookun)
Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 23:43:55 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <ac974f20-b5b7-45fb-9d4e-7819fc8608d3@Spark>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b6f19add-4b78-3da7-b9fe-f07790ed5609@lsl.digital>
 <ac974f20-b5b7-45fb-9d4e-7819fc8608d3@Spark>
Message-ID: <31c30071-0f21-856a-77a1-5a6c3e11df07@lsl.digital>

Hi David,

On 13/05/17 12:35, David Conrad wrote:
> 
> What Steve Crocker said during the RIPE meeting was not wrong: ICANN is a multi-stakeholder organization, the ccNSO would probably be the place a policy about punishing governments by removing ccTLDs from the root would be initiated, and if someone wants to pursue a policy proposal, regardless of how unlikely it will be to reach consensus within the community, the ICANN organization will facilitate: that is the role of the ICANN organization.
> 
> However, what Tutu appears to imply, namely that Steve or ICANN supports or endorses the anti-shutdown proposal, is simply wrong.  Having spoken with Steve here in Madrid at the ICANN DNS Symposium just a few minutes ago, I can assure you he is NOT supportive of the proposal.
> 


Yes, I agree, *implying* that ICANN supports the proposal is wrong. My
question was whether Tutu is saying the "Chair of ICANN" is wrong for
Dr. Crocker offering his help to one of the authors. A help is not an
endorsement and I understand that.

On the other hand, however, wouldn't it "imply" discouragement if ICANN
staff shows their non-support?

IMHO Andrew is open to suggestions and awaits that the community
proposes ways to address the "internet shutdowns" while limiting
collateral damage. I watched the RIPE 74 video. Andrew stressed several
times that the proposal is not perfect and they are open to suggestions.

The proposal can be broken down in two parts:

  (i) internet shutdown definition,
  (ii) sanctions.

As per my understanding, people are rushing to conclusion and opposing
the proposal just by considering the "sanctions" part. Does the sanction
part necessarily be removal of resources from the government?

The aim the proposal is to discourage internet shutdowns.

I proposed the authors the following definition change to be able to
cover wider censorship and governments be required legal means if they
are to censor communication in a country:

  "Internet Shutdown: A government ordered blocking access to the
general or part of the internet. Said definition does not preclude a
government from censoring content that is not legally permissible within
the laws of said country, on the provision that said censorship is
pursuant to a court order."

The debate seems to focus more on whether "this is our problem or not"
rather than improving the proposal to address the problem.

Regards,

Ish Sookun



From boubakarbarry at gmail.com  Sat May 13 19:52:24 2017
From: boubakarbarry at gmail.com (Boubakar Barry)
Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 19:52:24 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <31c30071-0f21-856a-77a1-5a6c3e11df07@lsl.digital>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b6f19add-4b78-3da7-b9fe-f07790ed5609@lsl.digital>
 <ac974f20-b5b7-45fb-9d4e-7819fc8608d3@Spark>
 <31c30071-0f21-856a-77a1-5a6c3e11df07@lsl.digital>
Message-ID: <CAGrBSSjf-1tTvbeb8bj2zjEA+DZYvDdS4rT4Q3iyz-FvuYU-ow@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 13, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Ish Sookun <ish at lsl.digital> wrote:

> The debate seems to focus more on whether "this is our problem or not"
> rather than improving the proposal to address the problem.
>

Sorry, but with all respect, should we waste more time on this?

Boubakar


>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
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From mje at posix.co.za  Sat May 13 20:10:17 2017
From: mje at posix.co.za (Mark Elkins)
Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 22:10:17 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CAGrBSSjf-1tTvbeb8bj2zjEA+DZYvDdS4rT4Q3iyz-FvuYU-ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b6f19add-4b78-3da7-b9fe-f07790ed5609@lsl.digital>
 <ac974f20-b5b7-45fb-9d4e-7819fc8608d3@Spark>
 <31c30071-0f21-856a-77a1-5a6c3e11df07@lsl.digital>
 <CAGrBSSjf-1tTvbeb8bj2zjEA+DZYvDdS4rT4Q3iyz-FvuYU-ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3b453a9-3b51-f15a-bc34-8742612a5c68@posix.co.za>



On 13/05/2017 21:52, Boubakar Barry wrote:
> On Sat, May 13, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Ish Sookun <ish at lsl.digital
> <mailto:ish at lsl.digital>> wrote:
>
>     The debate seems to focus more on whether "this is our problem or not"
>     rather than improving the proposal to address the problem.
>
>
> Sorry, but with all respect, should we waste more time on this?

I agree, lets not waste time on it.

We should rather spend proper productive quality time on it.

> Boubakar

-- 
Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za

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From pan.afrikhan at gmail.com  Sat May 13 20:23:17 2017
From: pan.afrikhan at gmail.com (Tutu Ngcaba)
Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 23:23:17 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <b6f19add-4b78-3da7-b9fe-f07790ed5609@lsl.digital>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b6f19add-4b78-3da7-b9fe-f07790ed5609@lsl.digital>
Message-ID: <CADu9AegzOmKYVHBOOZ98rsZHCb5OerwUjn_v1f43ws0q2paejA@mail.gmail.com>

Brother Ish Sookum

I shalln't respond to you as Mr.David Conrad of the ICANN CTO already
cleared this doubt from me and he explaination is noted by me already
including his good email.

Even this proposal shall never go but it maybe make people talk more and
raise the issue with our government.

I laugh when the people can think this bad policy can make a whole
governmnet stop internet shutdown or block facebook or the twitter if
powerful government like in China will control everything the people want
to see or monitor the people.

You know the government of Africa even is the best... most country its free
internet only. Unless when political problem shall occur like Lybia or
Egypt Tahiriri squred protesting or when Congo or Cameroon.

Now you find we technicians want to pretend to be ICC of Internet with the
Afrinic to also bring political technnical force. The government shall
smile and say ok no shutdown internet but because you like it. We shall
block all this facebook twitter instagram the youtube maybe email port 25
etc. All ISP will not have customers hahahahah this is why i laugh when one
or two people think they can messing with whole country government instead
of being polite like in cameroon and stop chaos and all back to normal free
internet.

Best Regards,

Tutu Ngcaba
Kwazulu Techno Hubs
South Africa


On 12 May 2017 10:03 p.m., "Ish Sookun" <ish at lsl.digital> wrote:

Hi Tutu,

On 12/05/17 13:33, Tutu Ngcaba wrote:
> Only the Icann chairs is saying will support in that ripe video. But he is
> not aware of challenges like why internet is such reason behind like
> polical ones which is not technical.

Are you saying the the ICANN chair is wrong?

Regards,

Ish Sookun
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From ish at lsl.digital  Sat May 13 20:32:27 2017
From: ish at lsl.digital (Ish Sookun)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 00:32:27 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CADu9AegzOmKYVHBOOZ98rsZHCb5OerwUjn_v1f43ws0q2paejA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b6f19add-4b78-3da7-b9fe-f07790ed5609@lsl.digital>
 <CADu9AegzOmKYVHBOOZ98rsZHCb5OerwUjn_v1f43ws0q2paejA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ed9105eb-fc08-226d-89fe-28d917180713@lsl.digital>

Hi Tutu,

On 14/05/17 00:23, Tutu Ngcaba wrote:
> Now you find we technicians want to pretend to be ICC of Internet with the
> Afrinic to also bring political technnical force. The government shall
> smile and say ok no shutdown internet but because you like it. We shall
> block all this facebook twitter instagram the youtube maybe email port 25
> etc. All ISP will not have customers hahahahah this is why i laugh when one
> or two people think they can messing with whole country government instead
> of being polite like in cameroon and stop chaos and all back to normal free
> internet.

I understand your concern about powerful governments who could cunningly
circumvent the anti-shutdown definition and thus deprive people of
communication platforms (e.g Facebook, Twitter etc).

That is why I proposed the text change in the definition to cover
censorship in a broader sense. I also proposed to make governments
require a court order for blocking content otherwise it falls under the
definition of an internet shutdown.

Regards,

Ish Sookun



From pan.afrikhan at gmail.com  Sat May 13 21:01:37 2017
From: pan.afrikhan at gmail.com (Tutu Ngcaba)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 00:01:37 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <ed9105eb-fc08-226d-89fe-28d917180713@lsl.digital>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b6f19add-4b78-3da7-b9fe-f07790ed5609@lsl.digital>
 <CADu9AegzOmKYVHBOOZ98rsZHCb5OerwUjn_v1f43ws0q2paejA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ed9105eb-fc08-226d-89fe-28d917180713@lsl.digital>
Message-ID: <CADu9AehH1-AmZDWJHFMHLpsmOc9KTj84sFK97Tb_m4_BbZeD6g@mail.gmail.com>

M brother my brother Ish

Do you know who appointed the supreme court in country... Its the president.

So you think the judge will stop govermment when chaos is happening.

Tell me one example where govermment or president order shutdown when no
riot or chaos or protesting of the people. Tell me...

You only thinking ooh the government shut it or they blocked it

You are not thinking why they government they do it when it was all ok and
all citizen enjoyed it freely.

Why why why please tell me before you pretending to be in American where
the Trump say no refugee and that judge is saying yes refugee yet they
America will have the powerful software to spy of the people like the
swoden brother who wll go to prison but kept in the russia. Where is the
freedom.

In the bible they say leave governement issue to governnment dont try to be
smart because you make the government which left internet free all along to
even be worse and worse they will create laws with member of parliemant to
control the internet.

Do you know some countries only government will give internet. No the
private ISP or the telecom. Do you want this to happen one day. You must be
caustiosly with the political matters like expert from ISOC leslie said in
that video by the advice of the mustistakeholder engaging.



Best Regards,

Tutu Ngcaba
Kwazulu Techno Hubs
South Africa


On 13 May 2017 11:32 p.m., "Ish Sookun" <ish at lsl.digital> wrote:

> Hi Tutu,
>
> On 14/05/17 00:23, Tutu Ngcaba wrote:
> > Now you find we technicians want to pretend to be ICC of Internet with
> the
> > Afrinic to also bring political technnical force. The government shall
> > smile and say ok no shutdown internet but because you like it. We shall
> > block all this facebook twitter instagram the youtube maybe email port 25
> > etc. All ISP will not have customers hahahahah this is why i laugh when
> one
> > or two people think they can messing with whole country government
> instead
> > of being polite like in cameroon and stop chaos and all back to normal
> free
> > internet.
>
> I understand your concern about powerful governments who could cunningly
> circumvent the anti-shutdown definition and thus deprive people of
> communication platforms (e.g Facebook, Twitter etc).
>
> That is why I proposed the text change in the definition to cover
> censorship in a broader sense. I also proposed to make governments
> require a court order for blocking content otherwise it falls under the
> definition of an internet shutdown.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ish Sookun
>
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From pan.afrikhan at gmail.com  Sat May 13 21:11:35 2017
From: pan.afrikhan at gmail.com (Tutu Ngcaba)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 00:11:35 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CADu9Aei7MsECuOioP8fJ8zJ5KN6-mu6MGfmkkxu4umzQ=Dyz4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b6f19add-4b78-3da7-b9fe-f07790ed5609@lsl.digital>
 <ac974f20-b5b7-45fb-9d4e-7819fc8608d3@Spark>
 <CADu9AehvGm-PL+11bVrh8TQez8Mxvd8gb-Lsn9ZU68zAM6fsng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADu9Aei7MsECuOioP8fJ8zJ5KN6-mu6MGfmkkxu4umzQ=Dyz4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADu9Aejnwukc5s=VW6j_CjN1mGVQ=CRjayqRM2LkchwT6j+Vag@mail.gmail.com>

Brother David

Ok you meet with ICANN Steve please you tell him i am not understood him
well in the beggining when i watch this video first time. I got the
confused but  got it when you explained to me.

Sorry for my confusion in the begging.

But i thank you for clarification now.

But you know of the ICANN block cctld the goverment can use free email like
yahoo and google like even Hillary Clinton has the private server and some
government will just make phone call or will host domain in other places
because they dont even use this a lot of government.

Seriously am telling you. maybe in UK or Americans.


Best Regards,

Tutu Ngcaba
Kwazulu Techno Hubs
South Africa



On 13 May 2017 11:49 a.m., "David Conrad" <drc at virtualized.org> wrote:

Ish,

On May 12, 2017, 9:04 PM +0200, Ish Sookun <ish at lsl.digital>, wrote:

On 12/05/17 13:33, Tutu Ngcaba wrote:

Only the Icann chairs is saying will support in that ripe video. But he is
not aware of challenges like why internet is such reason behind like
polical ones which is not technical.

Are you saying the the ICANN chair is wrong?


What Steve Crocker said during the RIPE meeting was not wrong: ICANN is a
multi-stakeholder organization, the ccNSO would probably be the place a
policy about punishing governments by removing ccTLDs from the root would
be initiated, and if someone wants to pursue a policy proposal, regardless
of how unlikely it will be to reach consensus within the community, the
ICANN organization will facilitate: that is the role of the ICANN
organization.

However, what Tutu appears to imply, namely that Steve or ICANN supports or
endorses the anti-shutdown proposal, is simply wrong.  Having spoken with
Steve here in Madrid at the ICANN DNS Symposium just a few minutes ago, I
can assure you he is NOT supportive of the proposal.

Regards,
-drc
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From pan.afrikhan at gmail.com  Sat May 13 21:27:00 2017
From: pan.afrikhan at gmail.com (Tutu Ngcaba)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 00:27:00 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <F63927C3-2F5F-4532-8CDD-CAB7A543C309@delong.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <F63927C3-2F5F-4532-8CDD-CAB7A543C309@delong.com>
Message-ID: <CADu9AegMs5M_E0voEVnLFYm2aAG26C7Y7U_=c0rgBJX_WziJzQ@mail.gmail.com>

Brother Owen

How are you. So i dont understand how you ask me in the email but i shall
tell you one important recommendations.


Only the multistake holders  process which is been for long long time like
ISOC leslie said is what is beeen working.

Do you know all places where government shutdown the internet..the our
people there are having internet today and using it.

Now do you know how this happen..Because the people talked in engaging the
government and other people from world also requested and after chaos or
reasons for shutdown was resolved... the internet is back on.

So was there this so called antishuting down police. No no no it was not
there and other solution solved it and same solution of engaging was used
for cameroon and  not antishutdown policey.

So why some people will come up with making the Afrinic ICC of Internet in
our motherland using the technical policy to think shall solve political
issue.

So i am thinking i given you good answer now now.

Best Regards,

Tutu Ngcaba
Kwazulu Techno Hubs
South Africa


On 12 May 2017 1:42 p.m., "Owen DeLong" <owen at delong.com> wrote:

>
> On May 12, 2017, at 02:33 , Tutu Ngcaba <pan.afrikhan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No no no brother Elkins
>
> I am not agree with you.
>
> so many people condemn such policy other in ripe say it is stinking
> meaning not good at all.
>
> Only the Icann chairs is saying will support in that ripe video. But he is
> not aware of challenges like why internet is such reason behind like
> polical ones which is not technical.
>
>
> The ICANN chair didn?t say he would support or oppose the policy from what
> I could see. He said that ICANN staff was available to assist in moving the
> policy through the global policy development process and/or to assist in
> drafting the policy or creating an ICANN policy working group to develop
> similar policy related to CCTLDs.
>
> That?s very different from support.
>
> Someone from France even say this bad policy will make government happy
> and smile when ip address stop coming ..meaning no ip no internet ver good
> for government which  like to use paper in the old school ways. It means
> government is happy with such policy for it will give them power and excuse
> to even make more internet shuts and blackout internet instead of the
> government being scare.
>
>
> For draconian regimes that prefer to block access to the internet by their
> citizens, such a claim should not be so easily dismissed. There could well
> be validity to this point of view and it would not surprise me if some
> governments did embrace the lack of address resources as yet another
> convenient control mechanism.
>
> So this message of you saying the bad policy attract many global debate is
> wrong as the debate is negative not good all as so many people in RIPE
> meeting asked so many questions whcih the Mrs.Andrew Alston only refuse to
> answer and keep saying he interested in debate.
>
>
> It has attracted debate. I won?t argue the quality of the debate it has
> attracted, but it has called attention to the issue in question and with
> this type of issue, gaining attention is almost always good regardless of
> the type of attention obtained. People are now discussing internet
> shutdowns as a much more serious issue than before. That is a positive sign
> of progress on the actual issue.
>
> Unfortunately, the actual issue is out of scope for the PDP. The PDP
> really is the wrong tool for this job. However, I think that is partially a
> reflection of the concept that if the only tool you have is a hammer, then
> every fastener looks like a nail.
>
> Even the zimbawabwe mugabe mentioning very bad publicity for the president
> who am sure will shut that internet very fast if it causes political
> problem. even the 1994 mention of people die even if internet is there
> nothing will happen because it is politics with long history.
>
>
> The democratization of communications and communications technologies are
> not a panacea for solving these problems, but they are a very important
> element in any workable solution. People cannot solve problems they do not
> know exist. Without democratized communications capabilities, it is much
> easier for ?governments? to limit the visibility of such problems on the
> larger world stage.
>
> In syria the people die, in somalia they die and other places internet is
> there or not... this is politics not technical stuffs.
>
>
> The boundary between politics and technical is not nearly as black and
> white as you would imply in this statement. As I said in the previous
> paragraph, internet is not a panacea, but it is an important element in
> solving these problems.
>
> So i do not the agree with you at all brother elkins.
>
>
> What would you propose as a better alternative to the current open
> multi-stakeholder process?
>
> Owen
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Tutu Ngcaba
> Kwazulu Techno Hubs
> South Africa
>
>
> On 12 May 2017 11:43 a.m., "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za> wrote:
>
>> The PDP allows anyone to submit any ideas and policies, irrespective of
>> who they are, where they are from, and what their ideas are, in a free
>> exchange of ideas and in the name of freedom of expression and freedom of
>> speech.
>>
>> Some policies are pretty straight forward, make lots of sense and should
>> simply be implemented. they don't need lots of discussion - more along the
>> lines of - "why didn't I think and suggest that?".
>>
>> Other policies are simply way out and should be still-born - such as the
>> PDP-BIS proposal, which destroys a number of the qualities of how the PDP
>> currently runs.
>>
>> The "Internet Shutdown" policy has caused discussion around the world.
>> This is proof of the multi-stakeholder approach at work (its being argued
>> by multiple stakeholders, both for and against). The very fact that this
>> policy has engendered so much debate does not indicate a problem with the
>> policy, rather, it shows that the process works and is resulting in debate
>> and discussion that is both constructive and healthy.
>>
>> On 12/05/2017 09:43, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>>
>> +1 Dear Mirriam and Badru
>>
>> Cela sera fix? par notre projet de politique PDP-BIS.
>>
>> This will be fixed by our PDP-BIS policy proposal.
>>
>> @Saul, je confirme que cette politique de shutdown est inopportune sur le
>> PDP, c'est une v?ritable perte de temps, car d'autres politique ssont sur
>> la table du PDP et personne n'a encore r?agit par rapport ? elles et on
>> tourne autour d'une politique dont tout le monde sait qu'elle n'aboutira
>> pas, et on nous avance comme argument le d?bat que ?a va susciter, c'est
>> comme si on se moque de notre communaut? de techniciens. Nous ne sommes pas
>> Politiciens, laissons cet aspect ? ceux qui en ont la comp?tence, pour en
>> d?battre, et nous nous serons l? en appui ? leur d?cision. Dicsutons sur
>> les choes qui feront avancer afrinic eet non celles qui lui cr?eront des
>> probl?mes. JE voudrais inviter tous les membres de cette communaut? ? se
>> concentrer sur les vrais missions d'Afrinic et d?batre de son avenir. Merci
>> pour votre conmpr?hension.
>>
>>
>> @Saul, I confirm that this shutdown policy is inappropriate on the PDP,
>> it is a real waste of time because other policies are on the PDP table and
>> nobody has yet reacted with them and we turn Around to  a policy that
>> everyone knows will not succeed, and we are advanced as an argument the
>> debate that will arouse, it is like we laugh at our community of
>> technicians. We are not Politicians, we leave it to those who have the
>> competence to debate it, and we will be there to support their decision. Let
>> us discuss on things that will move AFRINIC forward instead of those that
>> will create problems. I would like to invite all members of this
>> community to focus on Afrinic's real missions and to discuss its future. Thank
>> you for your understanding.
>>
>> Cordialement.
>>
>> Arnaud.
>>
>> 2017-05-12 7:10 GMT+00:00 Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za>:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>> Please can you explain how this is an abuse of the RPD?
>>>
>>>
>>> We have a serious issue of internet shutdowns on our continent. The
>>> impact that it has on education, the economy etc is immeasurable!
>>>
>>> This should be of grace concern to all of us!
>>>
>>>
>>> The authors of the policy have stated numerous times that this is an
>>> evolving proposal.
>>>
>>>
>>> The important thing is that it is encouraging global debate on how to
>>> resolve this issue. THAT is what this proposal is about ? ways to prevent
>>> this from happening.
>>>
>>>
>>> Whatever solutions we come up with ? but that can only happen with this
>>> debate, so I don?t see how it?s a waist!
>>>
>>>
>>> Saul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Mirriam [mailto:mirriamlauren at yahoo.com]
>>> *Sent:* 11 May 2017 08:24 PM
>>> *To:* Tutu Ngcaba <pan.afrikhan at gmail.com>; Mark Elkins <mje at posix.co.za
>>> >
>>> *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>;
>>> AfriNIC List <rpd at afrinic.net>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
>>> discussed at RIPE
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>>
>>> I totally agree with what Badru has stated and I really hope the PDP
>>> update policy proposal on the table before us can help to improve the
>>> Afrinic policy development process and environment notwithstanding quality
>>> of work so as to avoid such abuses of the pdp.
>>>
>>>
>>> KR,
>>>
>>> Mirriam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 1:41:29 PM GMT+3, Tutu Ngcaba <
>>> pan.afrikhan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Brother Elkins,
>>>
>>>
>>> The ICANN chairman Steve said some concern of internet shutdown will
>>> undermine the missions of Icann and the Afrinic and they two have the potential
>>> power to do something in return.
>>>
>>>
>>> The Afrinic Government Working Group AFGWG can work with the ICANN to
>>> achieve more mutlistakeholders talkings and meetings. This is what needs to
>>> be done in return.
>>>
>>> I ask the AFGWG to do some taking to the ICANN and they can meet our
>>> governments for education on economic important of Internet.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Tutu Ngcaba
>>> Kwazulu Techno Hubs
>>> South Africa
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10 May 2017 12:53 p.m., "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za> wrote:
>>>
>>> I downloaded the complete video  from RIPE and watched it a few times. I
>>> was also watching live.
>>>
>>> Its large - but if you can do, download it and watch it.
>>>
>>> https://ripe74.ripe.net/archiv e/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti-
>>> Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Ration ale-20170508-171822.mp4
>>> <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archive/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti-Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Rationale-20170508-171822.mp4>
>>> '
>>>
>>>
>>> Then again, when the Chairman of ICANN stands up and says that ICANN can
>>> help.
>>>
>>> "Hi, my name is Steve Crocker, I am Chairman of ICANN and I'm here to
>>> help you. (Regarding) take out of the root the affected ccTLD names" and he
>>> then volunteered assistance from ICANN staff - also saying it would take
>>> between two and five years to get to a decision whether to proceed or not.
>>>
>>> The current policy concept does not go that far - but to me - certainly
>>> suggests that the idea of punitive actions against governments is worth
>>> looking at.
>>>
>>> I regard it like a nuclear bomb. When in the hands of sane people (RIR's
>>> and ICANN), it is a threat - to persuade bad actors to have second thoughts
>>> against cutting people off from access to the Internet. If governments
>>> choose to cut people off from access to the Internet for political reasons,
>>> to me this is undermining the core mission of ICANN and the RIR's, both of
>>> whom have the potential power to do something in return. We need to enable
>>> that power from being simply a potential to being ready for use and hope
>>> its never needed to be used.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/05/2017 11:01, Noah wrote:
>>>
>>> Mmmm on the contrary seems like most folk on the floor disagreed with
>>> the contraversial policy and its approach no matter how much the Arthors
>>> seek for better ways to improve it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Some suggested multistake holder engagement and in particular Leslie
>>> Daigle comments on the floor are worth taking into serious considerations
>>> by the way.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Leslie Daigle of ISOC agrees that there is a problem. She has concerns
>>> but sounded to me more would like to see something. She just doesn't want
>>> to see dialogue being undermined by this policy.
>>>
>>> Perhaps talk is not enough?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The best comment in my opinion was from the Alan Durand who reminded
>>> everyone what the real core mission of the RIR community is,  and that
>>> is....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd say he was more worried about the policy being used for much more
>>> than it is currently intended for. (referenced to the colour of people's
>>> hair as a reason to cut them off the Internet).
>>>
>>>
>>> "To allocate resources and maintain the accuracy of the
>>> database".PERIOD. [1]
>>>
>>>
>>> Noah
>>>
>>>
>>> [1]I have had in the past folk state statements like "How some ome runs
>>> his network is none of anyones business and in that matter policing the
>>> network is none of AFRINICs business"
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10 May 2017 10:39 a.m., "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.c
>>> om <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Marcus,
>>>
>>>
>>> Just some feedback for the community.
>>>
>>>
>>> It's been a great experience here at RIPE and some of the ideas given
>>> and the extensive discussions following the presentation referred to by
>>> Marcus have been both useful and informative.
>>>
>>>
>>> Draft 2 will be submitted shortly very much in line with what I
>>> presented in that presentation - and before the 7 day deadline as per the
>>> PDP so we can discuss on that basis.
>>>
>>>
>>> Following the meeting in Nairobi, I suspect we will then be gathering
>>> still further input and further drafts will follow, if there is no
>>> consensus found on the floor for the draft 2 that will be submitted.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think for myself, the most important thing I have seen at RIPE so far,
>>> is the huge willingness by people from every walk of life to engage in
>>> dialog and discussion over this, and it was heartening to see both my own
>>> positions and the positions of those I was discussing with shift as
>>> explanations were given and questions were asked and answered.  Since
>>> giving that presentation I have barely had a minute to think as people
>>> approached me to talk this through - and I really hope to see such
>>> engagement in Nairobi, because it truly showed the benefit of a multi
>>> stakeholder approach where open dialog and communication can happen, even
>>> in the absence of agreement and in the face of controversial material where
>>> people hold strong and emotive views.
>>>
>>>
>>> I look forward to the discussions on the floor of the PDP and engaging
>>> with all of you to hear your thoughts and views and finding the right
>>> solution to the issue.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:48:42 PM
>>> *To:* rpd at afrinic.net; community-discuss at afrinic.net
>>> *Subject:* [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
>>> discussed at RIPE
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Colleagues.
>>>
>>>
>>> You might want to see the presentation of the controversial draft
>>> anti-shutdown policy (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent RIPE
>>> meeting.  I found the questions/comments from the RIPE community similar to
>>> that shared by many on the RPD, mostly about the inappropriateness of such
>>> policy in our region? or any other for that matter.  Enjoy watching it.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://ripe74.ripe.net/archiv es/video/41/
>>> <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>>>
>>> <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>>>
>>> Archives &#8211; RIPE 74 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>>>
>>> ripe74.ripe.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________ _________________
>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/community-discuss
>>> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________ _________________
>>>
>>> RPD mailing list
>>>
>>> RPD at afrinic.net
>>>
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/rpd <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
>>>
>>> mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590 <+27%2012%20807%200590>  Cell: +27.826010496 <+27%2082%20601%200496>
>>>
>>> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________ _________________
>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/community-discuss
>>> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RPD mailing listRPD at afrinic.nethttps://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africamje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590 <+27%2012%20807%200590>  Cell: +27.826010496 <+27%2082%20601%200496>
>> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
>
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From virtual.borg at gmail.com  Sun May 14 04:10:31 2017
From: virtual.borg at gmail.com (Chevalier du Borg)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 08:10:31 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CAGrBSSjf-1tTvbeb8bj2zjEA+DZYvDdS4rT4Q3iyz-FvuYU-ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b6f19add-4b78-3da7-b9fe-f07790ed5609@lsl.digital>
 <ac974f20-b5b7-45fb-9d4e-7819fc8608d3@Spark>
 <31c30071-0f21-856a-77a1-5a6c3e11df07@lsl.digital>
 <CAGrBSSjf-1tTvbeb8bj2zjEA+DZYvDdS4rT4Q3iyz-FvuYU-ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5aO8drkQ3dPBmTd5Qu-HQwA0Ec5t=Vr83F7SaAoAAfTnsEUA@mail.gmail.com>

2017-05-13 23:52 GMT+04:00 Boubakar Barry <boubakarbarry at gmail.com>:

> Sorry, but with all respect, should we waste more time on this?


YES WE SHOULD.

While AFRINIC policy may not be right tool for this work, and organisation
who mission is "Spearhead Internet development in Africa" cannot keep
silent.

I like to see some intelligent arguement for and against

i) Is these issue of impact to Internet in Africa?

ii) Is these issue of impact to AFRINIC who want to "spearhead internet
development in africa?"

iii) Policy may not be correct way, what else can this community, AFRINIC
do that is align with its mission as not only INTERNET REGISTRY but also
NETWORK INFORMATION CENTER?

if you have not intelligent to add apart from "not AFRINIC mission",  be
silent, that not an arguement.


I see same former board member and ISOC cameroon president who make
statement justifying shutdown contrary to ISOC principles is running for
board seat again. Please say this is not a delayed April Fool joke!




-- 
Borg le Chevalier
___________________________________
"Common sense is what tells us the world is flat"
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From virtual.borg at gmail.com  Sun May 14 04:21:17 2017
From: virtual.borg at gmail.com (Chevalier du Borg)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 08:21:17 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5aO8eeXCCPSq-4hBR4TvM-XrR09C9K2+PBwaNRZi2ZJyiHPw@mail.gmail.com>

2017-05-12 13:33 GMT+04:00 Tutu Ngcaba <pan.afrikhan at gmail.com>:

> so many people condemn such policy other in ripe say it is stinking
> meaning not good at all.


to make debate more useful, take time to give statistiques on

- number of people on {mailing_list}  who agree with problem issue statement
- number of people who agree this is issue for PDP
- number of people who disagree this is issue for PDP

that will do beautiful thing for your signal to noise ratio


-- 
Borg le Chevalier
___________________________________
"Common sense is what tells us the world is flat"
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From ish at lsl.digital  Sun May 14 08:18:20 2017
From: ish at lsl.digital (Ish Sookun)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 12:18:20 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CADu9AehH1-AmZDWJHFMHLpsmOc9KTj84sFK97Tb_m4_BbZeD6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b6f19add-4b78-3da7-b9fe-f07790ed5609@lsl.digital>
 <CADu9AegzOmKYVHBOOZ98rsZHCb5OerwUjn_v1f43ws0q2paejA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ed9105eb-fc08-226d-89fe-28d917180713@lsl.digital>
 <CADu9AehH1-AmZDWJHFMHLpsmOc9KTj84sFK97Tb_m4_BbZeD6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <022645b5-c9c9-86d1-1b84-5a3963bbd7fb@lsl.digital>

Hi Tutu,

On 14/05/17 01:01, Tutu Ngcaba wrote:
> 
> Do you know who appointed the supreme court in country... Its the president.
> 

The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa [1] says:

  174 (3) The President as head of the national executive, after
          consulting the Judicial Service Commission and the leaders of
          parties represented in the National Assembly, appoints the
          Chief Justice and the Deputy Chief Justice and, after
          consulting the Judicial Service Commission, appoints the
          President and Deputy President of the Supreme Court of Appeal.

> So you think the judge will stop govermment when chaos is happening.
> 

The Constitution also says:

  165 (2) The courts are independent and subject only to the
          Constitution and the law, which they must apply impartially
          and without fear, favour or prejudice.

      (3) No person or organ of state may interfere with the functioning
          of the courts.

> Tell me one example where govermment or president order shutdown when no
> riot or chaos or protesting of the people. Tell me...
> 

In 2007 access to Facebook [2] was disrupted in Mauritius because of a
fake profile of the then prime minister of Mauritius. There were no
riot, protest or chaos in Mauritius.

In 2012 a state-run ISP [3] in Tajikistan blocked Facebook after
comments were made on the president. There did not seem to be protests
or riots in Tajikistan to have caused the ban.

In 2010 a South Korean state agency blocked [4] the North Korean's state
account on Twitter. No riots or protests caused that.

> You only thinking ooh the government shut it or they blocked it
> 

No. I am thinking the government blocking the internet has implications
on freedom of speech and access to information. You mentioned riots and
chaos. An internet ban during the times of ? chaos ? sounds similar to
being shut in a dark room.

> You are not thinking why they government they do it when it was all ok and
> all citizen enjoyed it freely.
> 

Governments could argue they are preventing the spread of
misinformation. In trying to do so by blocking the internet they end up
hurting the economy and prevent access to information (e.g on cases of
abuse). Meanwhile misinformation could still be spread through other
means. If propaganda can leverage on the internet, it can also leverage
on other (non-electronic) communication mediums. Blocking the internet
does not stop propaganda.

> Why why why please tell me before you pretending to be in American where
> the Trump say no refugee and that judge is saying yes refugee yet they
> America will have the powerful software to spy of the people like the
> swoden brother who wll go to prison but kept in the russia. Where is the
> freedom.
> 

Snowden stood against a privacy abuse.

Thinking that we should not discuss & look for a remedy to internet
shutdowns because the governments are too powerful, would be a wrong
thing. One could argue that the RPD is not the place to discuss about
actions "against governments". I believe though that the RPD can discuss
internet shutdowns & look for remedy, where the remedy might not
necessarily be a punitive measure against a government.

Regards,

Ish Sookun

[1]
http://www.justice.gov.za/legislation/constitution/SAConstitution-web-eng.pdf
[2]
https://www.lexpress.mu/article/maurice-censure-le-site-communautaire-%C2%ABfacebook%C2%BB
[3]
http://www.reuters.com/article/net-us-tajikistan-facebook-idUSBRE8AQ0JY20121127
[4] http://mashable.com/2010/08/19/north-korea-twitter-banned/#zoPCks5drqq9



From mje at posix.co.za  Sun May 14 08:48:43 2017
From: mje at posix.co.za (Mark Elkins)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 10:48:43 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
Message-ID: <9d595a80-195c-6d39-a2ae-02c26305ecbd@posix.co.za>

With regard to the damage a shutdown can do:

Many of you will know that I am part of a team who has put together a
Paper on behalf of ICANN - the project which we call the African DNS
Market Study. This includes getting ccTLD stats from all African
countries. Because of the difficulty of getting responses from the whole
of the African ccTLD community, we also draw upon what other researchers
have done. We did our first count back in November, 2016.

One Data Source we used was DomainTools:
http://research.domaintools.com/statistics/tld-counts/

We repeated the exercise a week ago (6/7th May 2017) to see what had
changed. As expected, almost all ccTLD Domain counts have increased and
a handful have gone down by a very small margin.

There was one glaring exception, Cameroon.

November 2016:  63,023

May 2017:             31,801

That is, over the period of the Cameroon shutdown, the number of domains
registered under .CM decreased by more than 50%

That is significant.


-- 
Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za




From ali at hussein.me.ke  Sun May 14 15:43:23 2017
From: ali at hussein.me.ke (Ali Hussein)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 18:43:23 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
	discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <9d595a80-195c-6d39-a2ae-02c26305ecbd@posix.co.za>
References: <9d595a80-195c-6d39-a2ae-02c26305ecbd@posix.co.za>
Message-ID: <03FEDFD5-4994-4532-8059-1F07A2557C12@hussein.me.ke>

Mark 

Thanks for sharing. That Cameroon example is important. 

I've been following this discourse for a few days and I'm getting the feeling that no one in the community is supporting a shut down right? 

Or is there among us that do support a shut down? 

If we then all agree that an Internet Shutdown in any African country is unacceptable then instead of this back and forth which will lead nowhere why don't we as a community agree on how best to discourage and dialogue across Africa to ensure we don't experience the Cameroon example? 

For example in a Kenya we have gotten a commitment from the Communication Authority that there will be no Internet Shutdown.

Ali Hussein
Principal
Hussein & Associates
+254 0713 601113 

Twitter: @AliHKassim
Skype: abu-jomo
LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit."  ~ Aristotle


Sent from my iPad

> On 14 May 2017, at 11:48 AM, Mark Elkins <mje at posix.co.za> wrote:
> 
> With regard to the damage a shutdown can do:
> 
> Many of you will know that I am part of a team who has put together a
> Paper on behalf of ICANN - the project which we call the African DNS
> Market Study. This includes getting ccTLD stats from all African
> countries. Because of the difficulty of getting responses from the whole
> of the African ccTLD community, we also draw upon what other researchers
> have done. We did our first count back in November, 2016.
> 
> One Data Source we used was DomainTools:
> http://research.domaintools.com/statistics/tld-counts/
> 
> We repeated the exercise a week ago (6/7th May 2017) to see what had
> changed. As expected, almost all ccTLD Domain counts have increased and
> a handful have gone down by a very small margin.
> 
> There was one glaring exception, Cameroon.
> 
> November 2016:  63,023
> 
> May 2017:             31,801
> 
> That is, over the period of the Cameroon shutdown, the number of domains
> registered under .CM decreased by more than 50%
> 
> That is significant.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
> mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
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From mark.tinka at seacom.mu  Sun May 14 16:09:11 2017
From: mark.tinka at seacom.mu (Mark Tinka)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 18:09:11 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] SAFNOG-3: 4th - 7th September, 2017 - Durban,
	South Africa!
Message-ID: <4e427937-65c2-7afd-ce11-d0148c9eb2bf@seacom.mu>

Hello all.

It gives me great pleasure to announce that SAFNOG-3 will be held
between the 4th - 7th September, 2017, in the warm and sunny city of
Durban, South Africa.

The meeting will be held at the Southern Sun Elangeni and Maharani, a
spectacular landmark on the Golden Mile.

What is exciting about this year's SAFNOG meeting is that it will be
partnering with iWeek 2017. Both SAFNOG and iWeek will run together,
side-by-side.

Details about registration and the program agenda will be made available
on both the SAFNOG and iWeek web sites, as well as this mailing list.

Please mark your calendars.

To stay in the loop, please keep tabs on:

	http://safnog.org/

SAFNOG and iWeek look forward to seeing you in Durban.

Cheers,

Mark Tinka
On Behalf of the SAFNOG Management Committee




From drc at virtualized.org  Fri May 12 12:18:18 2017
From: drc at virtualized.org (David Conrad)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 14:18:18 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
Message-ID: <940429f7-cb73-4b52-ab32-be202619d9ef@Spark>

Hi,

While I am ICANN's CTO, in this context I speak only for myself, but do so with a bit of background in creating and running a Regional Internet Registry and formerly being responsible for the IANA functions. I have hesitated to comment on this thread as I am not a resource holder in the AfriNIC region, but at the suggestion that ICANN can "help", I felt compelled to say something.
> Then again, when the Chairman of ICANN stands up and says that ICANN can help.
> "Hi, my name is Steve Crocker, I am Chairman of ICANN and I'm here to help you. (Regarding) take out of the root the affected ccTLD names" and he then volunteered assistance from ICANN staff - also saying it would take between two and five years to get to a decision whether to proceed or not.
I believe Dr. Crocker was attempting to point out that developing this sort of policy will require a very (very) unlikely consensus of a large array of stakeholders (including governments) and it will take a very (very) long time to get to a point where the policy would even be considered, much less implemented.

For a bit of context, I believe the last PDP in the ccNSO (the group at ICANN that develops policy for ccTLDs) took about 9 years (depending on how you measure). Perhaps relevantly, there is no policy to remove a ccTLD from the root (aka "retiring the ccTLD") and the ccTLD community is now working on the policy to do just that. Personally, I'd be surprised if that PDP took less time.

However, to be clear, if a stakeholder in the ICANN community would like to make a proposal along these lines, the ICANN organization's job is to facilitate the policy definition process for that proposal, regardless of whether we (ICANN staff) think the proposal will ever or could ever get consensus.
> The current policy concept does not go that far - but to me - certainly suggests that the idea of punitive actions against governments is worth looking at.
IMHO, it's worth looking at only in the sense of "here is an example of a really bad idea."

The concept that a private organization providing a service in the public interest at the direction of the community for the benefit of the community can apply punitive actions against a governments, some of which are members of that community, is a great way to make that private organization irrelevant.

If AfriNIC chooses to refuse to allocate address space in response to a valid request as a punitive measure, they are violating the basic tenets by which AfriNIC was created. The RIRs are a resource distribution mechanism that serves as a way of avoiding a myriad of bilateral arrangements that would be necessary to document which network operator holds/announces which addresses. The RIRs are NOT a police force and have no mandate to punish governments. An attempt to convert AfriNIC into the Internet police will result in a fracturing of the rough consensus by which AfriNIC exists.

Further, this proposal, if enacted, will likely cause network operators in countries impacted by a shutdown to be forced to choose between abiding by the laws of their country and the policies of AfriNIC. If a government imposes a shutdown and is punished by AfriNIC, that government may choose to squat on address space and pass laws that force ISPs within that country to abide by that squatting or they'll simply go to the secondary market. In both cases, this proposal risks making AfriNIC irrelevant and/or damaging the global distributed registration database. Never forget participation in the RIR system is entirely voluntary -- it only works because network operators agrees it works. Make it challenging for those network operators and they'll find other ways to have their needs met.

FWIW, while I personally understand the concerns that led to the anti-shutdown proposal, I believe the concept of using AfriNIC as a weapon to punish governments is fundamentally flawed.

Regards,
-drc
(speaking only for myself)

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From drc at virtualized.org  Fri May 12 12:54:56 2017
From: drc at virtualized.org (David Conrad)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 14:54:56 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <71e766f8-b98b-4296-9869-0a56b6fcba89@Spark>

Hi,

Speaking for myself only.

On May 12, 2017, 11:35 AM +0200, Tutu Ngcaba <pan.afrikhan at gmail.com>, wrote:
> Only the Icann chairs is saying will support in that ripe video.

That is NOT what Steve Crocker said. He said that _if_ someone submits a proposal to have a ccTLD removed as punishment for government action, the ICANN organization will help facilitate the development of the policy, just as the organization does for any policy proposal. This does NOT indicate an endorsement of the proposal.

> But he is not aware of challenges like why internet is such reason behind like polical ones which is not technical.

Actually, I suspect he is quite aware of the challenges. I believe he was suggesting that it might be far harder and take far longer than one might naively expect for a policy proposal of this nature to even get to the point of being considered to be made into an actual policy.

Regards,
-drc
(speaking only for myself)

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From wale at forum.org.ng  Fri May 12 19:54:48 2017
From: wale at forum.org.ng (Wale Adedokun)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 19:54:48 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] PDWG 2017: Final Candidate Slate
Message-ID: <58204339.29642.1494618888656.JavaMail.zimbra@forum.org.ng>

Dear Colleagues,

NomCom2017 would like to announce that only one nomination was received and consequently approved towards the position of one Co-Chair of the PDWG (Policy Development Working Group).

The candidate is Adewole David Ajao from Nigeria

Election will be held during the AFRINIC-26 public policy meeting that will be held in Nairobi on 1st June 2017.
 
More information is available at: https://www.afrinic.net/en/community/elections/pdwg-election
 
For any queries or clarification, please contact the nominations committee by email to nomcom2017 at afrinic.net
 
2017 Nominations Committee

PS - Candidate profile and public comments pages will be announced separately




From drc at virtualized.org  Sat May 13 08:35:07 2017
From: drc at virtualized.org (David Conrad)
Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 10:35:07 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <b6f19add-4b78-3da7-b9fe-f07790ed5609@lsl.digital>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b6f19add-4b78-3da7-b9fe-f07790ed5609@lsl.digital>
Message-ID: <ac974f20-b5b7-45fb-9d4e-7819fc8608d3@Spark>

Ish,

On May 12, 2017, 9:04 PM +0200, Ish Sookun <ish at lsl.digital>, wrote:
> On 12/05/17 13:33, Tutu Ngcaba wrote:
> > Only the Icann chairs is saying will support in that ripe video. But he is
> > not aware of challenges like why internet is such reason behind like
> > polical ones which is not technical.
> Are you saying the the ICANN chair is wrong?

What Steve Crocker said during the RIPE meeting was not wrong: ICANN is a multi-stakeholder organization, the ccNSO would probably be the place a policy about punishing governments by removing ccTLDs from the root would be initiated, and if someone wants to pursue a policy proposal, regardless of how unlikely it will be to reach consensus within the community, the ICANN organization will facilitate: that is the role of the ICANN organization.

However, what Tutu appears to imply, namely that Steve or ICANN supports or endorses the anti-shutdown proposal, is simply wrong. ?Having spoken with Steve here in Madrid at the ICANN DNS Symposium just a few minutes ago, I can assure you he is NOT supportive of the proposal.

Regards,
-drc


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From devildron at gmail.com  Sun May 14 04:33:06 2017
From: devildron at gmail.com (Codarren Velvindron)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 08:33:06 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <ed9105eb-fc08-226d-89fe-28d917180713@lsl.digital>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b6f19add-4b78-3da7-b9fe-f07790ed5609@lsl.digital>
 <CADu9AegzOmKYVHBOOZ98rsZHCb5OerwUjn_v1f43ws0q2paejA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ed9105eb-fc08-226d-89fe-28d917180713@lsl.digital>
Message-ID: <CAJLqQBMehu29khx7cCY+MmUmNDCon+PGtY_0+GQwcs_4qU6yCA@mail.gmail.com>

This is the second time that I will show my dissaproval of  the text change
proposed by Ish Sookun.

For the same proposal again.

Best Regards,
Codarren

On May 14, 2017 00:35, "Ish Sookun" <ish at lsl.digital> wrote:

> Hi Tutu,
>
> On 14/05/17 00:23, Tutu Ngcaba wrote:
> > Now you find we technicians want to pretend to be ICC of Internet with
> the
> > Afrinic to also bring political technnical force. The government shall
> > smile and say ok no shutdown internet but because you like it. We shall
> > block all this facebook twitter instagram the youtube maybe email port 25
> > etc. All ISP will not have customers hahahahah this is why i laugh when
> one
> > or two people think they can messing with whole country government
> instead
> > of being polite like in cameroon and stop chaos and all back to normal
> free
> > internet.
>
> I understand your concern about powerful governments who could cunningly
> circumvent the anti-shutdown definition and thus deprive people of
> communication platforms (e.g Facebook, Twitter etc).
>
> That is why I proposed the text change in the definition to cover
> censorship in a broader sense. I also proposed to make governments
> require a court order for blocking content otherwise it falls under the
> definition of an internet shutdown.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ish Sookun
>
> _______________________________________________
> RPD mailing list
> RPD at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>
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From ish at lsl.digital  Mon May 15 06:37:54 2017
From: ish at lsl.digital (Ish Sookun)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 10:37:54 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <03FEDFD5-4994-4532-8059-1F07A2557C12@hussein.me.ke>
References: <9d595a80-195c-6d39-a2ae-02c26305ecbd@posix.co.za>
 <03FEDFD5-4994-4532-8059-1F07A2557C12@hussein.me.ke>
Message-ID: <586ae4ba-e4bd-907e-6ba8-a75a6e7a681c@lsl.digital>

Hi Ali,

On 14/05/17 19:43, Ali Hussein wrote:
> I've been following this discourse for a few days and I'm getting the feeling that no one in the community is supporting a shut down right? 

I would not say no one is supporting a shutdown. The discussions on the
RPD list prompted that some found it justified for the government to
shut down the internet because of riots & protests. I am not saying
whether they are right or wrong, but merely citing what I read from the
list.

Regards,

Ish Sookun



From mangawilly at gmail.com  Mon May 15 07:33:08 2017
From: mangawilly at gmail.com (Willy MANGA)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 08:33:08 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <9d595a80-195c-6d39-a2ae-02c26305ecbd@posix.co.za>
References: <9d595a80-195c-6d39-a2ae-02c26305ecbd@posix.co.za>
Message-ID: <6ce49871-91d8-4628-abf3-656203d12d62@gmail.com>

Hello Mark,

Le 14/05/2017 ? 09:48, Mark Elkins a ?crit :
> With regard to the damage a shutdown can do:
> [...]
> One Data Source we used was DomainTools:
> http://research.domaintools.com/statistics/tld-counts/

I'm curious to know how they collect their information .

> We repeated the exercise a week ago (6/7th May 2017) to see what had
> changed. As expected, almost all ccTLD Domain counts have increased and
> a handful have gone down by a very small margin.
> 
> There was one glaring exception, Cameroon.
> 
> November 2016:  63,023
> 
> May 2017:             31,801
> 
> That is, over the period of the Cameroon shutdown, the number of domains
> registered under .CM decreased by more than 50%


Let me doubt a bit on that numbers. Unfortunately I cannot speak on
behalf ANTIC (the .cm registry ) but I think it's much more what you
think. Trust me .
As of today,  it's higher than what you notice in november 2016 .

We can talk in private if you want.



-- 
Willy Manga
@ongolaboy
freenode : ongolaboy
https://ongola.blogspot.com/



From ali at hussein.me.ke  Mon May 15 08:05:39 2017
From: ali at hussein.me.ke (Ali Hussein)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 11:05:39 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
	discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <586ae4ba-e4bd-907e-6ba8-a75a6e7a681c@lsl.digital>
References: <9d595a80-195c-6d39-a2ae-02c26305ecbd@posix.co.za>
 <03FEDFD5-4994-4532-8059-1F07A2557C12@hussein.me.ke>
 <586ae4ba-e4bd-907e-6ba8-a75a6e7a681c@lsl.digital>
Message-ID: <55205468-376E-456B-8EAE-B7DE8EEA5308@hussein.me.ke>

Ish

Protests are an expression of freedom of association and speech. Shutting down the Internet because people are protesting is unjustified. The very Governments that are elected by the people should be responsible to the people. I can see where in some extreme (really extreme) circumstances where shut downs maybe be necessary. However, mechanisms MUST be put in place from the onset to justify such. And this must be a Multi- Stakeholder Consensus Building Mechanism where NATIONAL SECURITY is truly in jeopardy. 

Ali Hussein
Principal
Hussein & Associates
+254 0713 601113 

Twitter: @AliHKassim
Skype: abu-jomo
LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit."  ~ Aristotle


Sent from my iPad

> On 15 May 2017, at 9:37 AM, Ish Sookun <ish at lsl.digital> wrote:
> 
> Hi Ali,
> 
>> On 14/05/17 19:43, Ali Hussein wrote:
>> I've been following this discourse for a few days and I'm getting the feeling that no one in the community is supporting a shut down right? 
> 
> I would not say no one is supporting a shutdown. The discussions on the
> RPD list prompted that some found it justified for the government to
> shut down the internet because of riots & protests. I am not saying
> whether they are right or wrong, but merely citing what I read from the
> list.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Ish Sookun
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From ish at lsl.digital  Mon May 15 08:20:28 2017
From: ish at lsl.digital (Ish Sookun)
Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 12:20:28 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <55205468-376E-456B-8EAE-B7DE8EEA5308@hussein.me.ke>
References: <9d595a80-195c-6d39-a2ae-02c26305ecbd@posix.co.za>
 <03FEDFD5-4994-4532-8059-1F07A2557C12@hussein.me.ke>
 <586ae4ba-e4bd-907e-6ba8-a75a6e7a681c@lsl.digital>
 <55205468-376E-456B-8EAE-B7DE8EEA5308@hussein.me.ke>
Message-ID: <512b0b3d-36c6-f574-c207-d6785fe40e10@lsl.digital>

Hi Ali,

On 15/05/17 12:05, Ali Hussein wrote:
> Protests are an expression of freedom of association and speech. Shutting down the Internet because people are protesting is unjustified. The very Governments that are elected by the people should be responsible to the people. I can see where in some extreme (really extreme) circumstances where shut downs maybe be necessary. However, mechanisms MUST be put in place from the onset to justify such. And this must be a Multi- Stakeholder Consensus Building Mechanism where NATIONAL SECURITY is truly in jeopardy. 

I agree with you.

In fact, that is why when I proposed a text change in the "internet
shutdown" proposal a few days ago I stressed that a government should
require a court order if a ban is required.

Regards,

Ish Sookun



From kasender27 at gmail.com  Tue May 16 11:55:45 2017
From: kasender27 at gmail.com (Remy Kasende)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 12:55:45 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] anti-shutdown policy
Message-ID: <CAC4s8ZkZjZ=3xo22mgyii06Y8fXODWuDAvZ0npxFAj5bDObHgA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Ali Hussein,

I read your proposalsconcerning a Community organization in theAfrican
countries the purpose of which will be to prevent the stop of Internet for
any circumstance.With my opinion that depends more those whichcontrol the
African countries, more than thefreedom considered as a fundamental value of
 thecitizens, we will have to cope with the samethreats of the closing of
Internet on the level as ofusers and also some providers. Is the solutions
ofKenya it good example but which will be near to apply or make apply that?
we must set upstructures which will have protected and theusers, and the
suppliers of Internet in Africagenerally


R?my Kassende-kazadi.
Senior IT Network-support and Telecom's Infrastructures.
kinshasa DRC.
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From jwalu at yahoo.com  Thu May 18 15:35:48 2017
From: jwalu at yahoo.com (Walubengo J)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 15:35:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown
	policy	discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <55205468-376E-456B-8EAE-B7DE8EEA5308@hussein.me.ke>
References: <9d595a80-195c-6d39-a2ae-02c26305ecbd@posix.co.za>
 <03FEDFD5-4994-4532-8059-1F07A2557C12@hussein.me.ke>
 <586ae4ba-e4bd-907e-6ba8-a75a6e7a681c@lsl.digital>
 <55205468-376E-456B-8EAE-B7DE8EEA5308@hussein.me.ke>
Message-ID: <1488458791.625741.1495121748960@mail.yahoo.com>

Those lawyers dealing Internet rights suggest that Internet rights could be violated only if the following three conditions apply:
a) The shutdown must serve legitimate aimb) The shutdown is supported/established by (domestic or international) lawc) The shutdown is?necessary and proportionate.
walu.

      From: Ali Hussein <ali at hussein.me.ke>
 To: Ish Sookun <ish at lsl.digital> 
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; rpd <rpd at afrinic.net>
 Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:06 AM
 Subject: Re: [rpd] [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy discussed at RIPE
   
Ish
Protests are an expression of freedom of association and speech. Shutting down the Internet because people are protesting is unjustified. The very Governments that are elected by the people should be responsible to the people. I can see where in some extreme (really extreme) circumstances where shut downs maybe be necessary. However, mechanisms MUST be put in place from the onset to justify such. And this must be a Multi- Stakeholder Consensus Building Mechanism where NATIONAL SECURITY is truly in jeopardy.?

Ali HusseinPrincipalHussein & Associates+254 0713 601113?
Twitter: @AliHKassimSkype: abu-jomoLinkedIn:?http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ?~?Aristotle

Sent from my iPad
On 15 May 2017, at 9:37 AM, Ish Sookun <ish at lsl.digital> wrote:


Hi Ali,

On 14/05/17 19:43, Ali Hussein wrote:

I've been following this discourse for a few days and I'm getting the feeling that no one in the community is supporting a shut down right? 


I would not say no one is supporting a shutdown. The discussions on the
RPD list prompted that some found it justified for the government to
shut down the internet because of riots & protests. I am not saying
whether they are right or wrong, but merely citing what I read from the
list.

Regards,

Ish Sookun

_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list
RPD at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd


   
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From ali at hussein.me.ke  Thu May 18 15:53:46 2017
From: ali at hussein.me.ke (Ali Hussein)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 18:53:46 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
Message-ID: <CAPjmBy0W86QsHEx_Rano4FwjkPD4imC0YskBjJjWVb8HceBvVQ@mail.gmail.com>

@Walu

What, pray is *Legitimate Aim*'? :-)

*Ali Hussein*

*Principal*

*Hussein & Associates*



Tel: +254 713 601113

Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
<http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>


13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,

Chiromo Road, Westlands,

Nairobi, Kenya.

Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely
mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the
organizations that I work with.

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Walubengo J <jwalu at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Those lawyers dealing Internet rights suggest that Internet rights could
> be violated only if the following three conditions apply:
>
> a) The shutdown must serve legitimate aim
> b) The shutdown is supported/established by (domestic or international) law
> c) The shutdown is necessary and proportionate.
>
> walu.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Ali Hussein <ali at hussein.me.ke>
> *To:* Ish Sookun <ish at lsl.digital>
> *Cc:* General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; rpd
> <rpd at afrinic.net>
> *Sent:* Monday, May 15, 2017 11:06 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [rpd] [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown
> policy discussed at RIPE
>
> Ish
>
> Protests are an expression of freedom of association and speech. Shutting
> down the Internet because people are protesting is unjustified. The very
> Governments that are elected by the people should be responsible to the
> people. I can see where in some extreme (really extreme) circumstances
> where shut downs maybe be necessary. However, mechanisms MUST be put in
> place from the onset to justify such. And this must be a Multi- Stakeholder
> Consensus Building Mechanism where NATIONAL SECURITY is truly in jeopardy.
>
> *Ali Hussein*
> *Principal*
> *Hussein & Associates*
> +254 0713 601113
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
> Skype: abu-jomo
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
>
> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
> habit."  ~ Aristotle
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 15 May 2017, at 9:37 AM, Ish Sookun <ish at lsl.digital> wrote:
>
> Hi Ali,
>
> On 14/05/17 19:43, Ali Hussein wrote:
>
> I've been following this discourse for a few days and I'm getting the
> feeling that no one in the community is supporting a shut down right?
>
>
> I would not say no one is supporting a shutdown. The discussions on the
> RPD list prompted that some found it justified for the government to
> shut down the internet because of riots & protests. I am not saying
> whether they are right or wrong, but merely citing what I read from the
> list.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ish Sookun
>
> _______________________________________________
> RPD mailing list
> RPD at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>
>
>
>
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From ish at lsl.digital  Thu May 18 16:09:51 2017
From: ish at lsl.digital (Ish Sookun)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 20:09:51 +0400
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <1488458791.625741.1495121748960@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <9d595a80-195c-6d39-a2ae-02c26305ecbd@posix.co.za>
 <03FEDFD5-4994-4532-8059-1F07A2557C12@hussein.me.ke>
 <586ae4ba-e4bd-907e-6ba8-a75a6e7a681c@lsl.digital>
 <55205468-376E-456B-8EAE-B7DE8EEA5308@hussein.me.ke>
 <1488458791.625741.1495121748960@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <de823ae3-73c7-715f-f78f-cb52640733d1@lsl.digital>

Hi Walu,

On 18/05/17 19:35, Walubengo J wrote:
> a) The shutdown must serve legitimate aim
> b) The shutdown is supported/established by (domestic or international) law


How can Afrinic "measure" the legitimacy of an action?

Afrinic cannot do the job of local courts I presume. In order to support
a) and b) it is important to have the decision taken at the level of the
local courts. Otherwise, shutting down the internet in a country
(without a court order) becomes equivalent to arresting an individual
without a warrant.

Regards,

Ish Sookun



From jwalu at yahoo.com  Fri May 19 07:28:28 2017
From: jwalu at yahoo.com (Walubengo J)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 07:28:28 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <CAPjmBy0W86QsHEx_Rano4FwjkPD4imC0YskBjJjWVb8HceBvVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPjmBy0W86QsHEx_Rano4FwjkPD4imC0YskBjJjWVb8HceBvVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1056012937.791965.1495178908313@mail.yahoo.com>

haahaaa, am not sure :-).
But I guess to me 'legitimate aims' may vary country by country. ?But most countries would define these legitimate aims around the 'National Security' umbrella. Which ties into the second point - is it covered/prescribed in law?
So as long as the country has negotiated how and when to shut down their communication services/Internet, and ?backed this up that in their Acts of parliament then ?AfriNIC has no business getting involved, however crude that law maybe :-).
The last point 'necessary and proportionate' ensures that such shutdowns if they must happen are moderated in terms of duration, coverage or service type.
At the end of the day we can say most governments are never right when it comes to shutdowns, but that is not the same as assuming that Afrinic policies will always be right on internet shutdowns. ?
There must be shared checks and balances often brokered by courts of law.
walu.?

      From: Ali Hussein <ali at hussein.me.ke>
 To: Walubengo J <jwalu at yahoo.com> 
Cc: Ish Sookun <ish at lsl.digital>; General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>; rpd <rpd at afrinic.net>
 Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 6:53 PM
 Subject: Re: [rpd] [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy discussed at RIPE
   
@Walu
What, pray is Legitimate Aim'? :-)
AliHusseinPrincipalHussein & Associates?Tel: +254 713 601113
Twitter: @AliHKassimSkype: abu-jomoLinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,Chiromo Road, Westlands,Nairobi, Kenya.
Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with.
On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 6:35 PM, Walubengo J <jwalu at yahoo.com> wrote:

Those lawyers dealing Internet rights suggest that Internet rights could be violated only if the following three conditions apply:
a) The shutdown must serve legitimate aimb) The shutdown is supported/established by (domestic or international) lawc) The shutdown is?necessary and proportionate.
walu.

      From: Ali Hussein <ali at hussein.me.ke>
 To: Ish Sookun <ish at lsl.digital> 
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net >; rpd <rpd at afrinic.net>
 Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:06 AM
 Subject: Re: [rpd] [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy discussed at RIPE
   
Ish
Protests are an expression of freedom of association and speech. Shutting down the Internet because people are protesting is unjustified. The very Governments that are elected by the people should be responsible to the people. I can see where in some extreme (really extreme) circumstances where shut downs maybe be necessary. However, mechanisms MUST be put in place from the onset to justify such. And this must be a Multi- Stakeholder Consensus Building Mechanism where NATIONAL SECURITY is truly in jeopardy.?

Ali HusseinPrincipalHussein & Associates+254 0713 601113?
Twitter: @AliHKassimSkype: abu-jomoLinkedIn:?http://ke.linkedin. com/in/alihkassim
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ?~?Aristotle

Sent from my iPad
On 15 May 2017, at 9:37 AM, Ish Sookun <ish at lsl.digital> wrote:


Hi Ali,

On 14/05/17 19:43, Ali Hussein wrote:

I've been following this discourse for a few days and I'm getting the feeling that no one in the community is supporting a shut down right? 


I would not say no one is supporting a shutdown. The discussions on the
RPD list prompted that some found it justified for the government to
shut down the internet because of riots & protests. I am not saying
whether they are right or wrong, but merely citing what I read from the
list.

Regards,

Ish Sookun

______________________________ _________________
RPD mailing list
RPD at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/ mailman/listinfo/rpd


   



   
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From amreesh.phokeer at gmail.com  Fri May 19 09:47:23 2017
From: amreesh.phokeer at gmail.com (Amreesh Phokeer)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 11:47:23 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [AfrICANN-discuss] ICANN 59 (Joburg) Tech
 talk panel on DNSSEC Deployment Challenges
In-Reply-To: <CABAWsrDERfk1D_EPNPqmBPrfmTJZeFxPvo_A7m-aGu5=VCR5GA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6be9be63-8a65-e1d4-12e9-b96827f4c470@posix.co.za>
 <CABAWsrCUYw9N_UxisofYpAjpFkr=mZ6k_kmyBRKJhsq1SwiwCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABAWsrDERfk1D_EPNPqmBPrfmTJZeFxPvo_A7m-aGu5=VCR5GA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACRw5z=rNV9BA4Yj-69xtOf83QuMBvVbT7_bHa8k6xeLu31Qtg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mark,

I'd be keen to talk about AFRINIC DNSSEC infrastructure and more technical
things such as how to migrate a signer [1] if the committee would be
interested.

Cheers,
Amreesh


[1]
https://afrinic.net/blog/images/DNSSEC-MigratinganOpenDNSSECsigner-040216-1522-43.pdf

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 9:31 PM, Tr?sor Mazandou <mazandou2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Mark,
>
> I am personally interested for completing my capacity after Africa DNS
> study.
> Best  regards.
>
> MAZANDOU Tr?sor Xavier
> ICANN/ AFRALO/AFRINIC MEMBER
> T?l: +242064135965 <+242%2006%20413%205965> - +243816469479
> <+243%20816%20469%20479>
> Skype: trez_maz
>
> Le 2 mai 2017 12:44, "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za> a ?crit :
>
> ICANN-59 will be held in Johannesburg at the Sandton convention centre
> from 26-29 June, 2017.
>
> One of the technical days is shared between DNSSEC (morning) and ccTLD
> Technical Talks (afternoon).
>
> We (the DNSSEC Workshop Program Committee) are looking for a few people
> that would like to participate in a panel discussion on ?DNSSEC
> Deployment Challenges? on the African Continent.
>
> Officially-
>
> The program committee is seeking input from those that are interested in
> implementation of DNSSEC but have general or particular concerns with
> DNSSEC.  In particular, we are seeking input from individuals that would be
> willing to participate in a panel that would discuss questions of the
> nature:
>
> ? What are your most significant concerns with DNSSEC, e.g.,
> implementation, operation or something else?
>
> ? What do you expect DNSSEC to do for you and what doesn't it do?
>
> ? What do you see as the most important trade-offs with respect to doing
> or not doing DNSSEC?
>
> We are interested in presentations related to any aspect of DNSSEC such as
> zone signing, DNS response validation, applications use of DNSSEC,
> registry/registrar DNSSEC activities, etc.
>
> So, I'm looking for a handful of volunteers (anyone from Africa). Talks
> would be no longer than ten minutes long. You get a free lunch :-)
>
> --
> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africamje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590 <+27%2012%20807%200590>  Cell: +27.826010496 <+27%2082%20601%200496>
> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AfrICANN mailing list
> AfrICANN at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/africann
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AfrICANN mailing list
> AfrICANN at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/africann
>
>


-- 
Amreesh Phokeer
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From badru.ntege at nftconsult.com  Sun May 14 10:44:56 2017
From: badru.ntege at nftconsult.com (Badru Ntege)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 13:44:56 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <022645b5-c9c9-86d1-1b84-5a3963bbd7fb@lsl.digital>
References: <AM4PR0601MB190654237CB8BC5DF2C7F346B9EF0@AM4PR0601MB1906.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <AMSPR03MB534F956071FDC4196985C7EEEEC0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEqgTWbtzhKfU-qsNMN7JirNVtogft0RWKgrEHfQyuLpM5v6oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <e6948cd0-e5aa-c94b-f880-e88fbe9f2a78@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9AeidTrb=H1CiutvdrC5W2E-ZaD13mX1s4heRTK_HEi-3Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <2031075449.7427684.1494527013578@mail.yahoo.com>
 <040901d2caee$c52f8a20$4f8e9e60$@enetworks.co.za>
 <CAGDMR_dUwZGr5ahtR85reuv5YhdKAjELJ5cc7J_NdiWrNNiG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfdc295b-a9e1-8203-81ae-2a47135e65a7@posix.co.za>
 <CADu9Aeg8E-4Em3Jf_ecGLZrpSJE8XXMi8AbJv+oOo-6AR431LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b6f19add-4b78-3da7-b9fe-f07790ed5609@lsl.digital>
 <CADu9AegzOmKYVHBOOZ98rsZHCb5OerwUjn_v1f43ws0q2paejA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ed9105eb-fc08-226d-89fe-28d917180713@lsl.digital>
 <CADu9AehH1-AmZDWJHFMHLpsmOc9KTj84sFK97Tb_m4_BbZeD6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <022645b5-c9c9-86d1-1b84-5a3963bbd7fb@lsl.digital>
Message-ID: <0E1C4723-833F-4F4A-8D8C-7ABF6AA09895@nftconsult.com>

Ish 

And you think you have the ability or power to influence any state by this policy ???

This policy is actually doing more Harm to Afrinic than any potential good.  

An image the leadership need to work hard to recover as we work on the real Vision of Afrinic 

?Spearheading Internet technology and policy development in the African region?

And the Mission 

?To serve the African community by providing professional and efficient management of Internet number resources, supporting Internet technology usage and development, and promoting a participative and multi-stakeholder approach to Internet self-governance.?

The above two guiding principles of our organization are very clear about participative engagement.


So I re-stress my point.  Unless we plan to change the vision and Mission, this policy should never have passed the PDP process in the form it was presented.

Badru

 







On 5/14/17, 11:18 AM, "Ish Sookun" <ish at lsl.digital> wrote:

>Hi Tutu,
>
>On 14/05/17 01:01, Tutu Ngcaba wrote:
>> 
>> Do you know who appointed the supreme court in country... Its the president.
>> 
>
>The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa [1] says:
>
>  174 (3) The President as head of the national executive, after
>          consulting the Judicial Service Commission and the leaders of
>          parties represented in the National Assembly, appoints the
>          Chief Justice and the Deputy Chief Justice and, after
>          consulting the Judicial Service Commission, appoints the
>          President and Deputy President of the Supreme Court of Appeal.
>
>> So you think the judge will stop govermment when chaos is happening.
>> 
>
>The Constitution also says:
>
>  165 (2) The courts are independent and subject only to the
>          Constitution and the law, which they must apply impartially
>          and without fear, favour or prejudice.
>
>      (3) No person or organ of state may interfere with the functioning
>          of the courts.
>
>> Tell me one example where govermment or president order shutdown when no
>> riot or chaos or protesting of the people. Tell me...
>> 
>
>In 2007 access to Facebook [2] was disrupted in Mauritius because of a
>fake profile of the then prime minister of Mauritius. There were no
>riot, protest or chaos in Mauritius.
>
>In 2012 a state-run ISP [3] in Tajikistan blocked Facebook after
>comments were made on the president. There did not seem to be protests
>or riots in Tajikistan to have caused the ban.
>
>In 2010 a South Korean state agency blocked [4] the North Korean's state
>account on Twitter. No riots or protests caused that.
>
>> You only thinking ooh the government shut it or they blocked it
>> 
>
>No. I am thinking the government blocking the internet has implications
>on freedom of speech and access to information. You mentioned riots and
>chaos. An internet ban during the times of ? chaos ? sounds similar to
>being shut in a dark room.
>
>> You are not thinking why they government they do it when it was all ok and
>> all citizen enjoyed it freely.
>> 
>
>Governments could argue they are preventing the spread of
>misinformation. In trying to do so by blocking the internet they end up
>hurting the economy and prevent access to information (e.g on cases of
>abuse). Meanwhile misinformation could still be spread through other
>means. If propaganda can leverage on the internet, it can also leverage
>on other (non-electronic) communication mediums. Blocking the internet
>does not stop propaganda.
>
>> Why why why please tell me before you pretending to be in American where
>> the Trump say no refugee and that judge is saying yes refugee yet they
>> America will have the powerful software to spy of the people like the
>> swoden brother who wll go to prison but kept in the russia. Where is the
>> freedom.
>> 
>
>Snowden stood against a privacy abuse.
>
>Thinking that we should not discuss & look for a remedy to internet
>shutdowns because the governments are too powerful, would be a wrong
>thing. One could argue that the RPD is not the place to discuss about
>actions "against governments". I believe though that the RPD can discuss
>internet shutdowns & look for remedy, where the remedy might not
>necessarily be a punitive measure against a government.
>
>Regards,
>
>Ish Sookun
>
>[1]
>http://www.justice.gov.za/legislation/constitution/SAConstitution-web-eng.pdf
>[2]
>https://www.lexpress.mu/article/maurice-censure-le-site-communautaire-%C2%ABfacebook%C2%BB
>[3]
>http://www.reuters.com/article/net-us-tajikistan-facebook-idUSBRE8AQ0JY20121127
>[4] http://mashable.com/2010/08/19/north-korea-twitter-banned/#zoPCks5drqq9
>
>_______________________________________________
>Community-Discuss mailing list
>Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss




From badru.ntege at nftconsult.com  Sun May 14 10:48:08 2017
From: badru.ntege at nftconsult.com (Badru Ntege)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 13:48:08 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <9d595a80-195c-6d39-a2ae-02c26305ecbd@posix.co.za>
References: <9d595a80-195c-6d39-a2ae-02c26305ecbd@posix.co.za>
Message-ID: <7E287526-2D17-4410-B080-6797BE39B967@nftconsult.com>

Mark 









On 5/14/17, 11:48 AM, "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za> wrote:

> 
>
>There was one glaring exception, Cameroon.
>
>November 2016:  63,023
>
>May 2017:             31,801
>
>That is, over the period of the Cameroon shutdown, the number of domains
>registered under .CM decreased by more than 50%
>
>That is significant.
>


Do we have any supporting facts that this was the cause or are we making an assumption.  





>
>-- 
>Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
>mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
>For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Community-Discuss mailing list
>Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss




From badru.ntege at nftconsult.com  Sun May 14 17:15:53 2017
From: badru.ntege at nftconsult.com (Badru Ntege)
Date: Sun, 14 May 2017 20:15:53 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <03FEDFD5-4994-4532-8059-1F07A2557C12@hussein.me.ke>
References: <9d595a80-195c-6d39-a2ae-02c26305ecbd@posix.co.za>
 <03FEDFD5-4994-4532-8059-1F07A2557C12@hussein.me.ke>
Message-ID: <37C6F6AC-C02E-45B9-AC3C-581CFE5E59D4@nftconsult.com>


Ali 

No one supports a shutdown but not supporting it does not mean using the wrong avenue to ensure it does not happen.  Just like in any relationship, we only move forward if we respect each other.

Any policy by an external organization seeking to put a sovereign government on notice is seen as an insult to any sovereign government whatever the intention was.

Dialogue and respect for governments is the only way that will allow us to engage with them and ensure they understand the impact.  But we must also be ready to respectfully listen to them and understand why they might be driven to a shutdown.

The policy is an empty threat which has already damaged our image in the eyes of some member governments.   

Lets not kid ourselves, until we can help the governments understand that there are other ways to overcome whatever threat they see in the internet, if shutdown is what works for them at the time it will happen.

We have one solution if we want dialogue with governments.  

Drop the policy with a touch of humility, engage the governments maybe through AU to help them understand how to overcome their internal threats.  


Regards

Badru

 


 
On 5/14/17, 6:43 PM, "Ali Hussein" <ali at hussein.me.ke> wrote:

Mark 

Thanks for sharing. That Cameroon example is important. 

I've been following this discourse for a few days and I'm getting the feeling that no one in the community is supporting a shut down right? 

Or is there among us that do support a shut down? 

If we then all agree that an Internet Shutdown in any African country is unacceptable then instead of this back and forth which will lead nowhere why don't we as a community agree on how best to discourage and dialogue across Africa to ensure we don't experience the Cameroon example? 

For example in a Kenya we have gotten a commitment from the Communication Authority that there will be no Internet Shutdown.

Ali Hussein
Principal
Hussein & Associates
+254 0713 601113 

Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit."  ~ Aristotle


Sent from my iPad

On 14 May 2017, at 11:48 AM, Mark Elkins <mje at posix.co.za> wrote:

With regard to the damage a shutdown can do:

Many of you will know that I am part of a team who has put together a
Paper on behalf of ICANN - the project which we call the African DNS
Market Study. This includes getting ccTLD stats from all African
countries. Because of the difficulty of getting responses from the whole
of the African ccTLD community, we also draw upon what other researchers
have done. We did our first count back in November, 2016.

One Data Source we used was DomainTools:
http://research.domaintools.com/statistics/tld-counts/

We repeated the exercise a week ago (6/7th May 2017) to see what had
changed. As expected, almost all ccTLD Domain counts have increased and
a handful have gone down by a very small margin.

There was one glaring exception, Cameroon.

November 2016:  63,023

May 2017:             31,801

That is, over the period of the Cameroon shutdown, the number of domains
registered under .CM decreased by more than 50%

That is significant.


-- 
Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
_______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss 

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From mje at posix.co.za  Sun May 21 11:11:06 2017
From: mje at posix.co.za (Mark Elkins)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 13:11:06 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [rpd] Controversial anti-shutdown policy
 discussed at RIPE
In-Reply-To: <7E287526-2D17-4410-B080-6797BE39B967@nftconsult.com>
References: <9d595a80-195c-6d39-a2ae-02c26305ecbd@posix.co.za>
 <7E287526-2D17-4410-B080-6797BE39B967@nftconsult.com>
Message-ID: <5da9fcc2-cb0d-90a6-00a1-434d2eeb043b@posix.co.za>

I'm not making these figures up. It was the only major discrepancy when
we redid the numbers and caught us by surprise (William Stucke and I).
We were not looking at numbers to support the Internet Shutdown policy
but purely for research purposes for our ICANN DNS Africa study.

Occam's razor -
/Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should
be selected./

What else do you think a reduction by almost 50% should be accounted to?
(I got that wrong, not more than 50% but actually just a little less
than 50% - apologies)


On 14/05/2017 12:48, Badru Ntege wrote:
> Mark 
>
>
> On 5/14/17, 11:48 AM, "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za> wrote:
>
>>
>> There was one glaring exception, Cameroon.
>>
>> November 2016:  63,023
>>
>> May 2017:             31,801
>>
>> That is, over the period of the Cameroon shutdown, the number of domains
>> registered under .CM decreased by more than 50%
>>
>> That is significant.
>>
>
> Do we have any supporting facts that this was the cause or are we making an assumption.


-- 
Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za

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From amreesh at afrinic.net  Mon May 22 08:54:05 2017
From: amreesh at afrinic.net (Amreesh Phokeer)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 10:54:05 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: [AFRINIC-Announce] Workshop on Internet
 Measurements Initiatives in Africa
References: <033920F8-BE9E-49E9-9AB7-5305EF78E449@afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <0CA56313-2DE6-4A6F-AD01-8032A05B73CF@afrinic.net>

[APOLOGIES FOR CROSS POSTING]

Dear Colleagues,

We look forward to seeing you at the first workshop on ?Internet measurements Initiatives in Africa? on Tuesday, 30 May 2017 at the AIS?17 in Nairobi.
More details below.

Regards,
AFRINIC

> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Ashil Oogarah <ashil at afrinic.net>
> Subject: [AFRINIC-Announce] Workshop on Internet Measurements Initiatives in Africa
> Date: 22 May 2017 at 10:05:53 SAST
> To: announce at afrinic.net
> 
> Dear Colleagues,
> 
> We are pleased to announce our first workshop on "Internet Measurements Initiatives in Africa" that will take place on 30 May 2017 during AIS'17 in Nairobi, Kenya. The workshop attempts to enable discussions around the African Internet challenges and to formulate strategic directions for Internet measurements research in Africa as well as to understand the breadth of Internet research in this area. We also aim to initiate and accelerate collaboration among Internet researchers in Africa (and beyond). The workshop will include panel discussions on Internet measurements tools and techniques and well as on the intersection of Internet measurements and Internet policy development and formulation. 
> 
> The workshop is co-organised by Research ICT Africa.
> 
> The target audience for the workshop includes:
> 
> * Internet researchers
> * Network operators
> * Regulators
> * IXPs
> * NRENs
> * Civil society
> * Students
> 
> Workshop agenda : https://www.internetsummitafrica.org/images/Workshop_Agenda_May_30th_2017.pdf <https://www.internetsummitafrica.org/images/Workshop_Agenda_May_30th_2017.pdf>
> 
> We look forward to welcoming you at this event.
> 
> AFRINIC Communication
> _______________________________________________
> Announce mailing list
> Announce at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/announce

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From nkurunziza1999 at yahoo.fr  Mon May 22 12:01:33 2017
From: nkurunziza1999 at yahoo.fr (Jean Paul NKURUNZIZA)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 12:01:33 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Fwd: [AFRINIC-Announce] Workshop on
 Internet Measurements Initiatives in Africa
In-Reply-To: <0CA56313-2DE6-4A6F-AD01-8032A05B73CF@afrinic.net>
References: <033920F8-BE9E-49E9-9AB7-5305EF78E449@afrinic.net>
 <0CA56313-2DE6-4A6F-AD01-8032A05B73CF@afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <1711631316.5635952.1495454493135@mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you. 

I am interested in that workshop. 

Best?NKURUNZIZA Jean Paul 

TRAINER IN COMPUTING AND INTERNET POLICY

?ISOC BURUNDI : VICE PRESIDENT 

R?seau des T?l?centres Communautaires du Burundi : Pr?sident

?Burundi Youth Training Centre : Secr?taire G?n?ral 

 Skype : jpnkurunziz 

 Facebook :? http://www.facebook.com/jeanpaul.nkurunziza
? 
Twitter : @nkurunzizajp

Linkedin : linkedin.com/in/jean-paul-nkurunziza-88217235

Tel : +257 79 981459 

    Le Lundi 22 mai 2017 10h54, Amreesh Phokeer <amreesh at afrinic.net> a ?crit :
 

 [APOLOGIES FOR CROSS POSTING]
Dear Colleagues,
We look forward to seeing you at the first workshop on ?Internet measurements Initiatives in Africa? on Tuesday, 30 May 2017 at the AIS?17 in Nairobi.More details below.
Regards,AFRINIC


Begin forwarded message:
From: Ashil Oogarah <ashil at afrinic.net>
Subject: [AFRINIC-Announce] Workshop on Internet Measurements Initiatives in Africa
Date: 22 May 2017 at 10:05:53 SAST
To: announce at afrinic.net

Dear Colleagues,

We are pleased to announce our first workshop on "Internet Measurements Initiatives in Africa" that will take place on 30 May 2017 during AIS'17 in Nairobi, Kenya. The workshop attempts to enable discussions around the African Internet challenges and to formulate strategic directions for Internet measurements research in Africa as well as to understand the breadth of Internet research in this area. We also aim to initiate and accelerate collaboration among Internet researchers in Africa (and beyond). The workshop will include panel discussions on Internet measurements tools and techniques and well as on the intersection of Internet measurements and Internet policy development and formulation.?
The workshop is co-organised by Research ICT Africa.

The target audience for the workshop includes:

* Internet researchers
* Network operators
* Regulators
* IXPs
* NRENs
* Civil society
* Students

Workshop agenda :?https://www.internetsummitafrica.org/images/Workshop_Agenda_May_30th_2017.pdf

We look forward to welcoming you at this event.

AFRINIC Communication_______________________________________________
Announce mailing list
Announce at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/announce


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss


   
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From noah at neo.co.tz  Wed May 24 22:20:27 2017
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 01:20:27 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [AFRINIC-Announce] AFRINIC Annual Financial
	Statements 2016
Message-ID: <CAEqgTWbCMOVK7VYcRoi4JAT4fwePBo=yGBXdTYS5eM4XN_dqtQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Board Chair,

While going through this approved Financial Statements by the Board, I have
noted concerns that needs some clarifications.

1. Total emoluments and other benefits given to directors by the Company
during the year *2016 were 164.72*  compared to *74.49 in 2015 a 221%
increase in spend on directors*.

Can I ask the reason for such an Increase and can the membership have a
breakdown of this figure made public.

2. At 31 December 2016, trade receivables amounting to *USD 39,199 in 2016*
compared to *2015 : USD 26,098*, were impaired and written off during the
year meaning we are not managing our collections. This situation was
expected to improve but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Can I get some clarifications considering in Gaborone when I tasked the
board for explain, the board indicated the situation would improve.


Noah





Noah

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:58 AM, AFRINIC Communication <
comm-announce at afrinic.net> wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> AFRINIC is pleased to advise that the Annual Financial Statements for the
> financial year to December 2016 is now available at:
> https://www.afrinic.net/images/doc/Unsigned_AFS_2016.pdf
>
> Kindly take note that, at its meeting on the 19th April 2017, AFRINIC
> Board approved the Audited Financial Statements as presented (board
> resolution 201704.332  - https://www.afrinic.net/about/
> bod/meeting/2017#r332).
>
> All the required signatures are being assembled and once completed, a
> fully signed and complete set of 2016 Audited Financial Statements together
> with the signed External Auditors reports and Opinions shall be published.
>
> As per the bylaws Section 7.6  the audited financial statement will be
> presented at the AGMM on 1 June 2017, for adoption by the members.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Announce mailing list
> Announce at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>



-- 
*./noah*
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From sfolayan at skannet.com  Wed May 24 22:56:40 2017
From: sfolayan at skannet.com (Sunday Folayan)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 23:56:40 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [AFRINIC-Announce] AFRINIC Annual Financial
 Statements 2016
In-Reply-To: <CAEqgTWbCMOVK7VYcRoi4JAT4fwePBo=yGBXdTYS5eM4XN_dqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEqgTWbCMOVK7VYcRoi4JAT4fwePBo=yGBXdTYS5eM4XN_dqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f3016b1e-1f8b-789f-6f87-ad480a1e34d7@skannet.com>

Jambo Noah,

I shall cross-check and revert later, because I have started my 
in-country trip, destination Nairobi.

You may want to appropriately address Financials, through 
members-discuss at afrinic.net.

Best Regards,

Sunday Folayan

On 24/05/2017 23:20, Noah wrote:
> Hello Board Chair,
>
> While going through this approved Financial Statements by the Board, I 
> have noted concerns that needs some clarifications.
>
> 1. Total emoluments and other benefits given to directors by the 
> Company during the year *2016 were 164.72*  compared to *74.49 in 2015 
> a 221% increase in spend on directors*.
>
> Can I ask the reason for such an Increase and can the membership have 
> a breakdown of this figure made public.
>
> 2. At 31 December 2016, trade receivables amounting to *USD 39,199 in 
> 2016* compared to *2015 : USD 26,098*, were impaired and written off 
> during the year meaning we are not managing our collections. This 
> situation was expected to improve but that doesn't seem to be the case.
>
> Can I get some clarifications considering in Gaborone when I tasked 
> the board for explain, the board indicated the situation would improve.
>
>
> Noah
>
>
>
>
>
> Noah
>
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:58 AM, AFRINIC Communication 
> <comm-announce at afrinic.net <mailto:comm-announce at afrinic.net>> wrote:
>
>     Dear Colleagues,
>
>     AFRINIC is pleased to advise that the Annual Financial Statements
>     for the financial year to December 2016 is now available at:
>     https://www.afrinic.net/images/doc/Unsigned_AFS_2016.pdf
>     <https://www.afrinic.net/images/doc/Unsigned_AFS_2016.pdf>
>
>     Kindly take note that, at its meeting on the 19th April 2017,
>     AFRINIC Board approved the Audited Financial Statements as
>     presented (board resolution 201704.332  -
>     https://www.afrinic.net/about/bod/meeting/2017#r332
>     <https://www.afrinic.net/about/bod/meeting/2017#r332>).
>
>     All the required signatures are being assembled and once
>     completed, a fully signed and complete set of 2016 Audited
>     Financial Statements together with the signed External Auditors
>     reports and Opinions shall be published.
>
>     As per the bylaws Section 7.6  the audited financial statement
>     will be presented at the AGMM on 1 June 2017, for adoption by the
>     members.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Announce mailing list
>     Announce at afrinic.net <mailto:Announce at afrinic.net>
>     https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>     <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/announce>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> *./noah*
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss

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From noah at neo.co.tz  Thu May 25 07:20:46 2017
From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 10:20:46 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [AFRINIC-Announce] AFRINIC Annual Financial
 Statements 2016
In-Reply-To: <f3016b1e-1f8b-789f-6f87-ad480a1e34d7@skannet.com>
References: <CAEqgTWbCMOVK7VYcRoi4JAT4fwePBo=yGBXdTYS5eM4XN_dqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f3016b1e-1f8b-789f-6f87-ad480a1e34d7@skannet.com>
Message-ID: <CAEqgTWZRANOY2zmxnpo-W6o5r0i7XKgGfhfcO9Fm2NQh773PRg@mail.gmail.com>

Oga Sunday,

I wish you a safe trip to Nairobi.

So the FS was published to the public through the announce at afrinic.net
mailing list. If indeed AFRINIC's board wish was for the FS to be discussed
only by its resource members then they should have restricted it to only
the membership. The FS is also publicly published on AFRINIC website. Its
only logical that the FS in this case is discussed across the board by both
the community and membership at large.

Noah

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 1:56 AM, Sunday Folayan <sfolayan at skannet.com>
wrote:

> Jambo Noah,
>
> I shall cross-check and revert later, because I have started my in-country
> trip, destination Nairobi.
>
> You may want to appropriately address Financials, through
> members-discuss at afrinic.net.
>
> Best Regards,
> Sunday Folayan
>
>
> On 24/05/2017 23:20, Noah wrote:
>
> Hello Board Chair,
>
> While going through this approved Financial Statements by the Board, I
> have noted concerns that needs some clarifications.
>
> 1. Total emoluments and other benefits given to directors by the Company
> during the year *2016 were 164.72*  compared to *74.49 in 2015 a 221%
> increase in spend on directors*.
>
> Can I ask the reason for such an Increase and can the membership have a
> breakdown of this figure made public.
>
> 2. At 31 December 2016, trade receivables amounting to *USD 39,199 in
> 2016* compared to *2015 : USD 26,098*, were impaired and written off
> during the year meaning we are not managing our collections. This situation
> was expected to improve but that doesn't seem to be the case.
>
> Can I get some clarifications considering in Gaborone when I tasked the
> board for explain, the board indicated the situation would improve.
>
>
> Noah
>
>
>
>
>
> Noah
>
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:58 AM, AFRINIC Communication <
> comm-announce at afrinic.net> wrote:
>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> AFRINIC is pleased to advise that the Annual Financial Statements for the
>> financial year to December 2016 is now available at:
>> https://www.afrinic.net/images/doc/Unsigned_AFS_2016.pdf
>>
>> Kindly take note that, at its meeting on the 19th April 2017, AFRINIC
>> Board approved the Audited Financial Statements as presented (board
>> resolution 201704.332  - https://www.afrinic.net/about/
>> bod/meeting/2017#r332).
>>
>> All the required signatures are being assembled and once completed, a
>> fully signed and complete set of 2016 Audited Financial Statements together
>> with the signed External Auditors reports and Opinions shall be published.
>>
>> As per the bylaws Section 7.6  the audited financial statement will be
>> presented at the AGMM on 1 June 2017, for adoption by the members.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Announce mailing list
>> Announce at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *./noah*
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing listCommunity-Discuss at afrinic.nethttps://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
>


-- 
*./noah*
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From sfolayan at skannet.com  Thu May 25 08:13:04 2017
From: sfolayan at skannet.com (Sunday Folayan)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 09:13:04 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [AFRINIC-Announce] AFRINIC Annual Financial
 Statements 2016
In-Reply-To: <CAEqgTWZRANOY2zmxnpo-W6o5r0i7XKgGfhfcO9Fm2NQh773PRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEqgTWbCMOVK7VYcRoi4JAT4fwePBo=yGBXdTYS5eM4XN_dqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f3016b1e-1f8b-789f-6f87-ad480a1e34d7@skannet.com>
 <CAEqgTWZRANOY2zmxnpo-W6o5r0i7XKgGfhfcO9Fm2NQh773PRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <07f189ee-a2ec-3605-d29c-495a68b9448c@skannet.com>

Mzee Noah,

Thanks for your wishes.

Do not confuse the rights to see, discuss and query.

Because we are transparent and a public institution, the public has the 
right to see, the public has the right to discuss.

Members however have the right to query any details in the Financials.

Nice day.

Sunday.

On 25/05/2017 08:20, Noah wrote:
> Oga Sunday,
>
> I wish you a safe trip to Nairobi.
>
> So the FS was published to the public through the announce at afrinic.net 
> <mailto:announce at afrinic.net> mailing list. If indeed AFRINIC's board 
> wish was for the FS to be discussed only by its resource members then 
> they should have restricted it to only the membership. The FS is also 
> publicly published on AFRINIC website. Its only logical that the FS in 
> this case is discussed across the board by both the community and 
> membership at large.
>
> Noah
>
> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 1:56 AM, Sunday Folayan <sfolayan at skannet.com 
> <mailto:sfolayan at skannet.com>> wrote:
>
>     Jambo Noah,
>
>     I shall cross-check and revert later, because I have started my
>     in-country trip, destination Nairobi.
>
>     You may want to appropriately address Financials, through
>     members-discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:members-discuss at afrinic.net>.
>
>     Best Regards,
>
>     Sunday Folayan
>
>
>     On 24/05/2017 23:20, Noah wrote:
>>     Hello Board Chair,
>>
>>     While going through this approved Financial Statements by the
>>     Board, I have noted concerns that needs some clarifications.
>>
>>     1. Total emoluments and other benefits given to directors by the
>>     Company during the year *2016 were 164.72*  compared to *74.49 in
>>     2015 a 221% increase in spend on directors*.
>>
>>     Can I ask the reason for such an Increase and can the membership
>>     have a breakdown of this figure made public.
>>
>>     2. At 31 December 2016, trade receivables amounting to *USD
>>     39,199 in 2016* compared to *2015 : USD 26,098*, were impaired
>>     and written off during the year meaning we are not managing our
>>     collections. This situation was expected to improve but that
>>     doesn't seem to be the case.
>>
>>     Can I get some clarifications considering in Gaborone when I
>>     tasked the board for explain, the board indicated the situation
>>     would improve.
>>
>>
>>     Noah
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Noah
>>
>>     On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:58 AM, AFRINIC Communication
>>     <comm-announce at afrinic.net <mailto:comm-announce at afrinic.net>> wrote:
>>
>>         Dear Colleagues,
>>
>>         AFRINIC is pleased to advise that the Annual Financial
>>         Statements for the financial year to December 2016 is now
>>         available at:
>>         https://www.afrinic.net/images/doc/Unsigned_AFS_2016.pdf
>>         <https://www.afrinic.net/images/doc/Unsigned_AFS_2016.pdf>
>>
>>         Kindly take note that, at its meeting on the 19th April 2017,
>>         AFRINIC Board approved the Audited Financial Statements as
>>         presented (board resolution 201704.332  -
>>         https://www.afrinic.net/about/bod/meeting/2017#r332
>>         <https://www.afrinic.net/about/bod/meeting/2017#r332>).
>>
>>         All the required signatures are being assembled and once
>>         completed, a fully signed and complete set of 2016 Audited
>>         Financial Statements together with the signed External
>>         Auditors reports and Opinions shall be published.
>>
>>         As per the bylaws Section 7.6  the audited financial
>>         statement will be presented at the AGMM on 1 June 2017, for
>>         adoption by the members.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         Announce mailing list
>>         Announce at afrinic.net <mailto:Announce at afrinic.net>
>>         https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>         <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/announce>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     -- 
>>     *./noah*
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Community-Discuss mailing list
>>     Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
>>     https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>     <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
>
> -- 
> *./noah*
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From amelnaud at gmail.com  Thu May 25 12:56:58 2017
From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 12:56:58 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [AFRINIC-Announce] AFRINIC Annual Financial
 Statements 2016
In-Reply-To: <07f189ee-a2ec-3605-d29c-495a68b9448c@skannet.com>
References: <CAEqgTWbCMOVK7VYcRoi4JAT4fwePBo=yGBXdTYS5eM4XN_dqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f3016b1e-1f8b-789f-6f87-ad480a1e34d7@skannet.com>
 <CAEqgTWZRANOY2zmxnpo-W6o5r0i7XKgGfhfcO9Fm2NQh773PRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <07f189ee-a2ec-3605-d29c-495a68b9448c@skannet.com>
Message-ID: <CAGDMR_cmUW40Etpef3QXUnNp49zpTey7cFLVgaAxxhcQmhhS5Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Chair,
because we are transparent,  public institution,  managing public
ressources  for the public interest, we should be more than happy to
provide response to any community member, who cares and  took  his time to
study the financial statement  and made a simple query.

Regards

Arnaud


2017-05-25 8:13 GMT+00:00 Sunday Folayan <sfolayan at skannet.com>:

> Mzee Noah,
>
> Thanks for your wishes.
>
> Do not confuse the rights to see, discuss and query.
>
> Because we are transparent and a public institution, the public has the
> right to see, the public has the right to discuss.
>
> Members however have the right to query any details in the Financials.
> Nice day.
>
> Sunday.
>
>
> On 25/05/2017 08:20, Noah wrote:
>
> Oga Sunday,
>
> I wish you a safe trip to Nairobi.
>
> So the FS was published to the public through the announce at afrinic.net
> mailing list. If indeed AFRINIC's board wish was for the FS to be discussed
> only by its resource members then they should have restricted it to only
> the membership. The FS is also publicly published on AFRINIC website. Its
> only logical that the FS in this case is discussed across the board by both
> the community and membership at large.
>
> Noah
>
> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 1:56 AM, Sunday Folayan <sfolayan at skannet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Jambo Noah,
>>
>> I shall cross-check and revert later, because I have started my
>> in-country trip, destination Nairobi.
>>
>> You may want to appropriately address Financials, through
>> members-discuss at afrinic.net.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Sunday Folayan
>>
>>
>> On 24/05/2017 23:20, Noah wrote:
>>
>> Hello Board Chair,
>>
>> While going through this approved Financial Statements by the Board, I
>> have noted concerns that needs some clarifications.
>>
>> 1. Total emoluments and other benefits given to directors by the Company
>> during the year *2016 were 164.72*  compared to *74.49 in 2015 a 221%
>> increase in spend on directors*.
>>
>> Can I ask the reason for such an Increase and can the membership have a
>> breakdown of this figure made public.
>>
>> 2. At 31 December 2016, trade receivables amounting to *USD 39,199 in
>> 2016* compared to *2015 : USD 26,098*, were impaired and written off
>> during the year meaning we are not managing our collections. This situation
>> was expected to improve but that doesn't seem to be the case.
>>
>> Can I get some clarifications considering in Gaborone when I tasked the
>> board for explain, the board indicated the situation would improve.
>>
>>
>> Noah
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Noah
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:58 AM, AFRINIC Communication <
>> comm-announce at afrinic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>
>>> AFRINIC is pleased to advise that the Annual Financial Statements for
>>> the financial year to December 2016 is now available at:
>>> https://www.afrinic.net/images/doc/Unsigned_AFS_2016.pdf
>>>
>>> Kindly take note that, at its meeting on the 19th April 2017, AFRINIC
>>> Board approved the Audited Financial Statements as presented (board
>>> resolution 201704.332  - https://www.afrinic.net/about/
>>> bod/meeting/2017#r332).
>>>
>>> All the required signatures are being assembled and once completed, a
>>> fully signed and complete set of 2016 Audited Financial Statements together
>>> with the signed External Auditors reports and Opinions shall be published.
>>>
>>> As per the bylaws Section 7.6  the audited financial statement will be
>>> presented at the AGMM on 1 June 2017, for adoption by the members.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Announce mailing list
>>> Announce at afrinic.net
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/announce
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *./noah*
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing listCommunity-Discuss at afrinic.nethttps://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>> --
> *./noah*
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From badru.ntege at nftconsult.com  Fri May 26 05:39:31 2017
From: badru.ntege at nftconsult.com (Badru Ntege)
Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 08:39:31 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [AFRINIC-Announce] AFRINIC Annual Financial
 Statements 2016
In-Reply-To: <CAGDMR_cmUW40Etpef3QXUnNp49zpTey7cFLVgaAxxhcQmhhS5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEqgTWbCMOVK7VYcRoi4JAT4fwePBo=yGBXdTYS5eM4XN_dqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f3016b1e-1f8b-789f-6f87-ad480a1e34d7@skannet.com>
 <CAEqgTWZRANOY2zmxnpo-W6o5r0i7XKgGfhfcO9Fm2NQh773PRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <07f189ee-a2ec-3605-d29c-495a68b9448c@skannet.com>
 <CAGDMR_cmUW40Etpef3QXUnNp49zpTey7cFLVgaAxxhcQmhhS5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0FA62A91-93BF-4CA5-8F26-94023584D9A0@nftconsult.com>

 

2017-05-25 8:13 GMT+00:00 Sunday Folayan <sfolayan at skannet.com>:
    
 

Mzee Noah,
 

Thanks for your wishes.
 
 

Do not confuse the rights to see, discuss and query. 
 
 

Because we are transparent and a public institution, the public has the right to see, the public has the right to discuss.

I?m I reading this wrong or does it say the public does not have the right to query ??

 

Members however have the right to query any details in the Financials.

Interesting boundaries being set here.  

I really like the concept of Bottom up processes and governance but maybe needs to be updated 

 


BN.

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From mayoye at seacom.mu  Sat May 27 20:11:45 2017
From: mayoye at seacom.mu (Simon Mayoye)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 20:11:45 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [AFRINIC-Announce] AIS'17 Challenges
In-Reply-To: <1495901538258.31025@seacom.mu>
References: <6640477C-4077-4BD0-B8B8-C4D53D411823@afrinic.net>,
 <1495901538258.31025@seacom.mu>
Message-ID: <1495915906905.83515@seacom.mu>

Hi Ashil,
That sounds a bit vague, what challenges are you referring to?

Regards,
Simon
________________________________________
From: Ashil Oogarah <ashil at afrinic.net>
Sent: 27 May 2017 05:46 PM
To: announce at afrinic.net
Subject: [AFRINIC-Announce] AIS'17 Challenges

Dear Colleagues,

As some of you may be aware, there have been several challenges in the organization of the African Internet Summit due to circumstances beyond our control. Despite this, AFRINIC is making every effort to ensure that the challenges do not impact on the smooth running of the meeting.

Thank you for your understanding and continued support.


Alan Barret,

CEO, AFRINIC



_______________________________________________
Announce mailing list
Announce at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/announce



From mayoye at seacom.mu  Sat May 27 16:12:17 2017
From: mayoye at seacom.mu (Simon Mayoye)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 16:12:17 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Fw: [AFRINIC-Announce] AIS'17 Challenges
In-Reply-To: <6640477C-4077-4BD0-B8B8-C4D53D411823@afrinic.net>
References: <6640477C-4077-4BD0-B8B8-C4D53D411823@afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <1495901538258.31025@seacom.mu>

Hi Ashil,
That sounds a bit vague, what challenges are you referring to?

Regards,
Simon
________________________________________
From: Ashil Oogarah <ashil at afrinic.net>
Sent: 27 May 2017 05:46 PM
To: announce at afrinic.net
Subject: [AFRINIC-Announce] AIS'17 Challenges

Dear Colleagues,

As some of you may be aware, there have been several challenges in the organization of the African Internet Summit due to circumstances beyond our control. Despite this, AFRINIC is making every effort to ensure that the challenges do not impact on the smooth running of the meeting.

Thank you for your understanding and continued support.


Alan Barret,

CEO, AFRINIC



_______________________________________________
Announce mailing list
Announce at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/announce



From jaberamatogoro at gmail.com  Mon May 29 05:53:29 2017
From: jaberamatogoro at gmail.com (jaberamatogoro at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 05:53:29 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss]
	=?utf-8?q?=5BAFRINIC-Announce=5D_AIS=2717_Cha?= =?utf-8?q?llenges?=
In-Reply-To: <1495915906905.83515@seacom.mu>
References: <6640477C-4077-4BD0-B8B8-C4D53D411823@afrinic.net>,
 <1495901538258.31025@seacom.mu>,<1495915906905.83515@seacom.mu>
Message-ID: <592bb7de.0a5e1c0a.190e3.9c98@mx.google.com>

Dear CEO,


For the matter of transparency. What are those challenges for those of us who are not aware of them.


Taking note on the critical role that AFRINIC is playing in organizing AIS Meeting it would be good to sort them out and keep the AIS fire burning. This is the only way AFRINIC Outreach and Engagement to African Community can be realized.



Regards,

Matogoro








Sent from Windows Mail





From: Simon Mayoye
Sent: ?Saturday?, ?May? ?27?, ?2017 ?11?:?11? ?PM
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net





Hi Ashil,
That sounds a bit vague, what challenges are you referring to?

Regards,
Simon
________________________________________
From: Ashil Oogarah <ashil at afrinic.net>
Sent: 27 May 2017 05:46 PM
To: announce at afrinic.net
Subject: [AFRINIC-Announce] AIS'17 Challenges

Dear Colleagues,

As some of you may be aware, there have been several challenges in the organization of the African Internet Summit due to circumstances beyond our control. Despite this, AFRINIC is making every effort to ensure that the challenges do not impact on the smooth running of the meeting.

Thank you for your understanding and continued support.


Alan Barret,

CEO, AFRINIC



_______________________________________________
Announce mailing list
Announce at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/announce

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
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From alan.barrett at afrinic.net  Mon May 29 06:02:30 2017
From: alan.barrett at afrinic.net (Alan Barrett)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 09:02:30 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [AFRINIC-Announce] AIS'17 Challenges
In-Reply-To: <592bb7de.0a5e1c0a.190e3.9c98@mx.google.com>
References: <6640477C-4077-4BD0-B8B8-C4D53D411823@afrinic.net>
 <1495901538258.31025@seacom.mu> <1495915906905.83515@seacom.mu>
 <592bb7de.0a5e1c0a.190e3.9c98@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <2BDF877B-6D3F-44C9-8AC2-4D7E14C14AF6@afrinic.net>


> On 29 May 2017, at 08:53, <jaberamatogoro at gmail.com> <jaberamatogoro at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear CEO,
> 
> For the matter of transparency. What are those challenges for those of us who are not aware of them.

If you have not heard about the challenges, then you don?t need to worry about them.  They pose no threat to the success of the meeting.

Alan Barrett




From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com  Mon May 29 10:30:03 2017
From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 10:30:03 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
Message-ID: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>

Hi All,

On the night of Saturday the 27th of May, 2017, while having drinks at the bar, after a week of intense pressure related to concerns about the event, and under the influence of a few beers, as a cultural gesture of reconciliation, I delivered a drink to Dr. Quaynor.  This is customary and is done as a show of reconciliation.

However, when delivering that drink, it seems that I made a mistake with the words that I used and offense was taken.  This was not intended and for the offense caused, I offer an unreserved apology.  I also need to reiterate that anything said was in no way in my capacity as a board member, and was done on a personal basis.

Again, if I have caused offense, I apologize and it was unintended.

Yours Sincerely

Andrew Alston

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From badru.ntege at nftconsult.com  Mon May 29 10:58:28 2017
From: badru.ntege at nftconsult.com (Badru Ntege)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 10:58:28 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
Message-ID: <362BBEFD-8E0D-4506-9063-B8D2B76E02B1@nftconsult.com>

Andrew

As a member of this community it's not the first time nor the last time I'm I going to expect this behavior or the customary apology.

We are all adults some of us parents I'm sorry as for me apology not accepted. I have said it before and every year you continue to confirm the fact that you do not have the maturity to represent this community on the board.

Let's not blame the alcohol.

Every action and word I hear from you makes me cringe but pains me that you actually stand and represent Afrinic in the international fora.

Purely my personal sentiments as a full member of this community.

My unapologetic regards.

Badru

Sent from my iPhone

On 29 May 2017, at 13:31, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:

Hi All,

On the night of Saturday the 27th of May, 2017, while having drinks at the bar, after a week of intense pressure related to concerns about the event, and under the influence of a few beers, as a cultural gesture of reconciliation, I delivered a drink to Dr. Quaynor.  This is customary and is done as a show of reconciliation.

However, when delivering that drink, it seems that I made a mistake with the words that I used and offense was taken.  This was not intended and for the offense caused, I offer an unreserved apology.  I also need to reiterate that anything said was in no way in my capacity as a board member, and was done on a personal basis.

Again, if I have caused offense, I apologize and it was unintended.

Yours Sincerely

Andrew Alston

_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
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From jrhountomey at gmail.com  Mon May 29 11:22:06 2017
From: jrhountomey at gmail.com (Hountomey Jean Robert)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 14:22:06 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
Message-ID: <CANUCqKGMByZgsTfBSf+TyMGEZkaAf3Am6ZUg-n+-KmQvtA2aFA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Andrew,
Please let us know what cultural gesture of reconciliation disrespecting an
Elder is and which culture are we talking about.
If after few beers you are not able  to control your actions, I wonder what
ethical standards to hold you to.
Your actions are impacting negatively on the reputation of the AfriNIC.
This is unacceptable.
Jean-Robert.

2017-05-29 13:30 GMT+03:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>:

> Hi All,
>
>
>
> On the night of Saturday the 27th of May, 2017, while having drinks at
> the bar, after a week of intense pressure related to concerns about the
> event, and under the influence of a few beers, as a cultural gesture of
> reconciliation, I delivered a drink to Dr. Quaynor.  This is customary and
> is done as a show of reconciliation.
>
>
>
> However, when delivering that drink, it seems that I made a mistake with
> the words that I used and offense was taken.  This was not intended and for
> the offense caused, I offer an unreserved apology.  I also need to
> reiterate that anything said was in no way in my capacity as a board
> member, and was done on a personal basis.
>
>
>
> Again, if I have caused offense, I apologize and it was unintended.
>
>
>
> Yours Sincerely
>
>
>
> Andrew Alston
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From jacksonmuthi at gmail.com  Mon May 29 12:07:02 2017
From: jacksonmuthi at gmail.com (Jackson Muthili)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 15:07:02 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
Message-ID: <CA+DdLrQYuB5YFD+PU-TyGo-oV8Ls8Ry6dquq9qC-_E6d0Gx1MQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 1:30 PM, Andrew Alston
<Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> and under the influence of a few beers,

Under the influence of alcohol.

> as a cultural gesture of reconciliation,

You decided on that gesture under the influence of alcohol?

> I delivered a drink to Dr. Quaynor.

By the time you scribed such a carefully wordsmithed apology, its is
clear that the act was just more than delivering a drink

> However, when delivering that drink, it seems that I made a mistake with the
> words that I used and offense was taken.

!

> I also need to reiterate
> that anything said was in no way in my capacity as a board member, and was
> done on a personal basis.

You were a board member when you acted that way. Such conduct brings
the companies you represent as well as your person into disrepute. You
cannot extricate yourself from those affiliations.

J



From evelyngeek at gmail.com  Mon May 29 12:17:42 2017
From: evelyngeek at gmail.com (Evelyn Namara)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 15:17:42 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <CANUCqKGMByZgsTfBSf+TyMGEZkaAf3Am6ZUg-n+-KmQvtA2aFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CANUCqKGMByZgsTfBSf+TyMGEZkaAf3Am6ZUg-n+-KmQvtA2aFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADweiLV5+iWCtru-VoOrR5wFR6YX-buP0SSBvmAoV2_Y+6S+dw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,

For some of us, we joined this community to seek inspiration from people we
admire and look up to in this community.

As the next generation, we are here to learn and get inspired to take up
the mantle and hopefully one day also help this community advance to the
next level.
It is from this angle that I say, it was quite unfortunate to learn about
that particular incident. We need to shine a positive light as members of
influence in order to positively influence the next generation of leaders.

There needs to be a code of ethics or conduct that anyone in a leadership
position needs to uphold.

Let's be conscious and know that we are watched and will be ultimately
judged by our actions.

Kind Regards,

Evelyn.


On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Hountomey Jean Robert <
jrhountomey at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Andrew,
> Please let us know what cultural gesture of reconciliation disrespecting
> an Elder is and which culture are we talking about.
> If after few beers you are not able  to control your actions, I wonder
> what ethical standards to hold you to.
> Your actions are impacting negatively on the reputation of the AfriNIC.
> This is unacceptable.
> Jean-Robert.
>
> 2017-05-29 13:30 GMT+03:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> :
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>>
>>
>> On the night of Saturday the 27th of May, 2017, while having drinks at
>> the bar, after a week of intense pressure related to concerns about the
>> event, and under the influence of a few beers, as a cultural gesture of
>> reconciliation, I delivered a drink to Dr. Quaynor.  This is customary and
>> is done as a show of reconciliation.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, when delivering that drink, it seems that I made a mistake with
>> the words that I used and offense was taken.  This was not intended and for
>> the offense caused, I offer an unreserved apology.  I also need to
>> reiterate that anything said was in no way in my capacity as a board
>> member, and was done on a personal basis.
>>
>>
>>
>> Again, if I have caused offense, I apologize and it was unintended.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours Sincerely
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew Alston
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>


-- 


Evelyn Namara | T: +256 754 440893 | E: enamara at riseup.net | Twitter:
@enamara <http://www.twitter.com/enamara> | Skype: enamara

PGP: B94D 3950 38D6 914A E054 D6C5 E82E 0F66 DC01 E30D
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From honest1989 at gmail.com  Mon May 29 12:22:29 2017
From: honest1989 at gmail.com (Ornella GANKPA)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 13:22:29 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
Message-ID: <f2eb5a90-0cee-5d3f-a20a-eef2bc90ba12@gmail.com>

Dear community,

I would like to set the record straight with respect of this incident

This is a first-hand recount of the events because I was there.

In the evening of May 27, 2017, after the activities of the day of AIS,
Prof. Nii Quaynor and friends (including me) went to the bar at the Boma
Hotel in Nairobi, Kenya.

We were quietly enjoying our discussion, Andrew Alston came to the table
of Prof Nii Quaynor from behind him with a less than full bottle of the
beer and slammed it on table in front of Prof Nii Quaynor and while
going back to his table he added the following: "just in case you cannot
not afford a beer, this for you only".

This behavior from Mr Andrew Alston, an AfriNIC Board Member, is totally
unacceptable in all civilized societies in this world. Disrespect and
disobedience are not tolerated should never be tolerated in our community.

Whether Mr Andrew Alston likes it or not, he DOES represent the board
while he is at AIS especially being within the premise of the conference
and engaging community members. Should we expect this same behaviour
(getting drunk and disrespecting) from an AFRINIC board member at RIPE,
ARIN etc. meetings? Is it the
kind of representation AFRINIC wants worldwide?


Some Community Members sent mails to the Chairman of AfriNIC Board and
the CEO of AfriNIC to express their disapproval of this reckless
behavior and inviting them to take their responsibility by restoring
respect and dignity in our community.


Thank you,

Honest Ornella GANKPA

Le 29/05/2017 ? 11:30, Andrew Alston a ?crit :
>
> Hi All,
>
>  
>
> On the night of Saturday the 27^th of May, 2017, while having drinks
> at the bar, after a week of intense pressure related to concerns about
> the event, and under the influence of a few beers, as a cultural
> gesture of reconciliation, I delivered a drink to Dr. Quaynor.  This
> is customary and is done as a show of reconciliation.
>
>  
>
> However, when delivering that drink, it seems that I made a mistake
> with the words that I used and offense was taken.  This was not
> intended and for the offense caused, I offer an unreserved apology.  I
> also need to reiterate that anything said was in no way in my capacity
> as a board member, and was done on a personal basis.
>
>  
>
> Again, if I have caused offense, I apologize and it was unintended.
>
>  
>
> Yours Sincerely
>
>  
>
> Andrew Alston
>
>  
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss



---
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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From afahounko at gmail.com  Mon May 29 12:35:38 2017
From: afahounko at gmail.com (Danny)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 15:35:38 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
Message-ID: <CA+DA2xqf-gtrVa6LAZk7DdVtKZspYtLaBKGMEeb9mi7Krnva-A@mail.gmail.com>

whether on personal basis or not, it shows the levity with which you treat
AfriNIC and the technical community.
The community may have been able to overlook your previous misdemeanors but
this is just disgraceful and
unacceptable from a sitting board member not to mention one striving for
re-election onto to the AfriNIC Board.


2017-05-29 13:30 GMT+03:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>:

> Hi All,
>
>
>
> On the night of Saturday the 27th of May, 2017, while having drinks at
> the bar, after a week of intense pressure related to concerns about the
> event, and under the influence of a few beers, as a cultural gesture of
> reconciliation, I delivered a drink to Dr. Quaynor.  This is customary and
> is done as a show of reconciliation.
>
>
>
> However, when delivering that drink, it seems that I made a mistake with
> the words that I used and offense was taken.  This was not intended and for
> the offense caused, I offer an unreserved apology.  I also need to
> reiterate that anything said was in no way in my capacity as a board
> member, and was done on a personal basis.
>
>
>
> Again, if I have caused offense, I apologize and it was unintended.
>
>
>
> Yours Sincerely
>
>
>
> Andrew Alston
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From amelnaud at gmail.com  Mon May 29 12:46:28 2017
From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 12:46:28 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
Message-ID: <CAGDMR_fc-4kgQDw=b5hoqhxLXJ12CFmJWL8pTRXVAO7m2+7Jgw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Community

French version, English version after

Bonjour ch?re communaut?,

Non M. Alston cela ne s'est pas pass? comme ?a. Nous ?tions nombreaux ?
?tre assis en cercle au salon int?rieur du bar, et toi ? la terrasse
ext?rieur,  et tu as pu dans le noir identifi? la position de Prof Nii
pour  mener ton action. Chez nous un adage dit "Une souris, m?me saoul?e
n'oublie jamais le carrefour du chat". Si tu respectais Prof tu n'aurais
jamais pos? cet acte, m?me saoul?. Ce n'est pas la premi?re fois que tu
tiens ce genre de comportement, puis tu pr?sente des plates excuses, trop
c'est trop, il est temps que le Board prenne ses responsabilit?s et te
virer de leur sain car tu est n?faste pour eux et pour la communaut?. Par
cons?quent je t'invite personnellement en temps que membre de la
communaut?, respectueux des ain?s, ? bien vouloir d?missionner de ton
poste, et ne plus te pr?senter, car tu n'en es pas digne.

Pr?sent? une bouteille de bi?re d?j? ouverte et entam?e, ? un ain? ne
rel?ve d'aucune culture, mais de la moquerie, surtout avec la phrase qui
l'a accompagn?e : " si tu n'as pas les moyens de te l'offrir, voici une
bi?re pour toi tout seul"  tu es venu volontairement nargu? Prof devant
nous.

Je connais le code de conduite pas besoin qu'on me le rappelle et je suis
pr?t ? assumer les cons?quences.

C'est facile de dire que je ne le fais pas en temps que membre du board, on
s'en fou, si tu aime faire des choses en ton nom personnel, pardon
d?missiones  et ne te repr?sente plus. Et tu auras la latitude de faire ce
que tu veux en ton nom personnel. Mais tant que tu es membre du board tu as
droit ? de la retenue, cela n'a pas besoin d'?tre ?crit quelque part, ?a
rel?ve du bon sens et de la bonne ?ducation. Chez nous, en Afrique on
respect les ain?s qui se respectent.

Arnaud

English version

No Mr. Alston it did not happen like that. There were many of us sitting in
a circle in the bar's interior lounge, and you on the outside terrace, and
in the dark you were able to identify Prof Nii's position to carry out your
action. It's said "A mouse, even drunk, never forgets the crossroads of the
cat." If you respected Prof, you would never have done this, even drunk.
This is not the first time you have this kind of behavior, and then you
apologies, too much is too much, it's time for the Board to take his
responsibility and get rid of you,  because you are harmful to them And to
the community. Therefore I invite you personally as a member of the
community, respectful of elders, to resign, and not run again for board
position, because you are not worthy. I'm sorry to be rough, but you
deserve it.

Presented a bottle of beer already opened and started, to an elder, does
not belong to any culture, but mockery, especially with the sentence that
accompanied it: "if you cannot afford, Here's a beer for you only" you came
willingly taunted Prof in front of  us. Hummm!

I know the code of conduct no need to be reminded of it and I am willing to
bear the consequences.

It's easy to say that I do not do it as a member of the board, we do not
care, if you like  doing things in your capacity, pardon resign  and no
longer represent yourself. And you will have the latitude to do what you
want in your own capacity. But as long as you are a member of the board you
should have some decorum, it does not need to be written somewhere, it is
common sense and good education.

Arnaud


2017-05-29 10:30 GMT+00:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>:

> Hi All,
>
>
>
> On the night of Saturday the 27th of May, 2017, while having drinks at
> the bar, after a week of intense pressure related to concerns about the
> event, and under the influence of a few beers, as a cultural gesture of
> reconciliation, I delivered a drink to Dr. Quaynor.  This is customary and
> is done as a show of reconciliation.
>
>
>
> However, when delivering that drink, it seems that I made a mistake with
> the words that I used and offense was taken.  This was not intended and for
> the offense caused, I offer an unreserved apology.  I also need to
> reiterate that anything said was in no way in my capacity as a board
> member, and was done on a personal basis.
>
>
>
> Again, if I have caused offense, I apologize and it was unintended.
>
>
>
> Yours Sincerely
>
>
>
> Andrew Alston
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From sfolayan at gmail.com  Mon May 29 13:24:14 2017
From: sfolayan at gmail.com (Sunday Folayan)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 16:24:14 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Board Statement n Board Member's Conduct
Message-ID: <0256cf40-c4d3-206c-47d8-92c3dcbd8c86@gmail.com>

Dear Community,

The attention of the AFRINIC Board has been drawn to an incident which 
occurred in the hall/lobby of the Boma Hotel, on Saturday 27 May 2017, 
where AIS 2017 is being held.

It has further been confirmed that a sitting board member was involved 
in the said incident in which Dr Nii Quaynor, a senior and respected 
member of the African Internet community was allegedly subjected to 
verbal molestation and humiliation.

The AFRINIC Board vehemently condemns any inappropriate act that does 
not take into consideration the diversity in the community and 
acceptable norms within African societies and will not condone such acts.

The above incident is being further investigated and the Community will 
be informed of the outcome.

Sunday Folayan

Chair, AFRINIC Board.



-- 
--------------------------------------------------
Sunday Adekunle Folayan
Managing Director
General data Engineering Services (SKANNET)
16 Oshin Road, Kongi Bodija, Ibadan - Nigeria
Phone: +234 802 291 2202, +234 816 866 7523
Email:sfolayan at skannet.com.ng,sfolayan at gmail.com
---------------------------------------------------

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From ncathyug at gmail.com  Mon May 29 13:42:09 2017
From: ncathyug at gmail.com (Catherine Niwagaba)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 16:42:09 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <CAGDMR_fc-4kgQDw=b5hoqhxLXJ12CFmJWL8pTRXVAO7m2+7Jgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAGDMR_fc-4kgQDw=b5hoqhxLXJ12CFmJWL8pTRXVAO7m2+7Jgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOXAXpNcYwV3xza3A5g4WYEiGmvjecwq+BAAAO8rYbzPALr6bw@mail.gmail.com>

I did raise a red flag at AIS'16 in Botswana about the conduct and
utterances of some members that took to the floor. As a new-comer I felt a
lot was still desired especially when I compared what I witnessed to my
experience at my first ICANN meeting (ICANN52). Reading about this
unfortunate incident now makes me wonder whether my comment was ever given
serious consideration.

Regards,

Catherine


On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 3:46 PM, Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Community
>
> French version, English version after
>
> Bonjour ch?re communaut?,
>
> Non M. Alston cela ne s'est pas pass? comme ?a. Nous ?tions nombreaux ?
> ?tre assis en cercle au salon int?rieur du bar, et toi ? la terrasse
> ext?rieur,  et tu as pu dans le noir identifi? la position de Prof Nii
> pour  mener ton action. Chez nous un adage dit "Une souris, m?me saoul?e
> n'oublie jamais le carrefour du chat". Si tu respectais Prof tu n'aurais
> jamais pos? cet acte, m?me saoul?. Ce n'est pas la premi?re fois que tu
> tiens ce genre de comportement, puis tu pr?sente des plates excuses, trop
> c'est trop, il est temps que le Board prenne ses responsabilit?s et te
> virer de leur sain car tu est n?faste pour eux et pour la communaut?. Par
> cons?quent je t'invite personnellement en temps que membre de la
> communaut?, respectueux des ain?s, ? bien vouloir d?missionner de ton
> poste, et ne plus te pr?senter, car tu n'en es pas digne.
>
> Pr?sent? une bouteille de bi?re d?j? ouverte et entam?e, ? un ain? ne
> rel?ve d'aucune culture, mais de la moquerie, surtout avec la phrase qui
> l'a accompagn?e : " si tu n'as pas les moyens de te l'offrir, voici une
> bi?re pour toi tout seul"  tu es venu volontairement nargu? Prof devant
> nous.
>
> Je connais le code de conduite pas besoin qu'on me le rappelle et je suis
> pr?t ? assumer les cons?quences.
>
> C'est facile de dire que je ne le fais pas en temps que membre du board,
> on s'en fou, si tu aime faire des choses en ton nom personnel, pardon
> d?missiones  et ne te repr?sente plus. Et tu auras la latitude de faire ce
> que tu veux en ton nom personnel. Mais tant que tu es membre du board tu as
> droit ? de la retenue, cela n'a pas besoin d'?tre ?crit quelque part, ?a
> rel?ve du bon sens et de la bonne ?ducation. Chez nous, en Afrique on
> respect les ain?s qui se respectent.
>
> Arnaud
>
> English version
>
> No Mr. Alston it did not happen like that. There were many of us sitting
> in a circle in the bar's interior lounge, and you on the outside terrace,
> and in the dark you were able to identify Prof Nii's position to carry out
> your action. It's said "A mouse, even drunk, never forgets the crossroads
> of the cat." If you respected Prof, you would never have done this, even
> drunk. This is not the first time you have this kind of behavior, and then
> you apologies, too much is too much, it's time for the Board to take his
> responsibility and get rid of you,  because you are harmful to them And to
> the community. Therefore I invite you personally as a member of the
> community, respectful of elders, to resign, and not run again for board
> position, because you are not worthy. I'm sorry to be rough, but you
> deserve it.
>
> Presented a bottle of beer already opened and started, to an elder, does
> not belong to any culture, but mockery, especially with the sentence that
> accompanied it: "if you cannot afford, Here's a beer for you only" you came
> willingly taunted Prof in front of  us. Hummm!
>
> I know the code of conduct no need to be reminded of it and I am willing
> to bear the consequences.
>
> It's easy to say that I do not do it as a member of the board, we do not
> care, if you like  doing things in your capacity, pardon resign  and no
> longer represent yourself. And you will have the latitude to do what you
> want in your own capacity. But as long as you are a member of the board you
> should have some decorum, it does not need to be written somewhere, it is
> common sense and good education.
>
> Arnaud
>
>
> 2017-05-29 10:30 GMT+00:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> :
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>>
>>
>> On the night of Saturday the 27th of May, 2017, while having drinks at
>> the bar, after a week of intense pressure related to concerns about the
>> event, and under the influence of a few beers, as a cultural gesture of
>> reconciliation, I delivered a drink to Dr. Quaynor.  This is customary and
>> is done as a show of reconciliation.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, when delivering that drink, it seems that I made a mistake with
>> the words that I used and offense was taken.  This was not intended and for
>> the offense caused, I offer an unreserved apology.  I also need to
>> reiterate that anything said was in no way in my capacity as a board
>> member, and was done on a personal basis.
>>
>>
>>
>> Again, if I have caused offense, I apologize and it was unintended.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours Sincerely
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew Alston
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>


-- 
?The distance is nothing when one has a motive.?
? Jane Austen <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/1265.Jane_Austen>
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From madomey at hotmail.com  Mon May 29 13:46:55 2017
From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 13:46:55 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Board Statement n Board Member's Conduct
In-Reply-To: <0256cf40-c4d3-206c-47d8-92c3dcbd8c86@gmail.com>
References: <0256cf40-c4d3-206c-47d8-92c3dcbd8c86@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DB6PR06MB30620981F76FE11FD540849FB9F30@DB6PR06MB3062.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Chair,



> The above incident is being further investigated and the Community will be informed of the outcome.

There were enough witnesses, he has admitted and the board was informed yesterday morning of this incident. The community is waiting for the board to act NOW.


Please, let us not procrastinate!


Marcus







--
--------------------------------------------------
Sunday Adekunle Folayan
Managing Director
General data Engineering Services (SKANNET)
16 Oshin Road, Kongi Bodija, Ibadan - Nigeria
Phone: +234 802 291 2202, +234 816 866 7523
Email: sfolayan at skannet.com.ng<mailto:sfolayan at skannet.com.ng>, sfolayan at gmail.com<mailto:sfolayan at gmail.com>
---------------------------------------------------
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From bagolibe at artp.tg  Mon May 29 14:19:50 2017
From: bagolibe at artp.tg (BAGOLIBE)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 14:19:50 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
Message-ID: <930A1BBC-CA1D-4DED-BDC7-CFF14C087464@artp.tg>

Hi All,
I'm shocked by what i read, do we even talk about Prof Nii? My dear Andrew, we do not scratch an icon, especially when we're a member of the board.
Definitely between alcohol and wisdom you made your choice. At the board, we do not need alcoholics.

Regards;

?Fabrice

????French version?????????

Je suis atterr? devant ce que je lis, on parle quand m?me du prof Nii? Mon cher Andrew, on n'egratigne pas une icone, surtout quand on est un membre du board.
D?finitivement entre l'alcool et la sagesse tu as fait ton choix. Au board, nous n'avons pas besoin d'alcooliques.

Regards;

?Fabrice




> Le 29 mai 2017 ? 10:30, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> a ?crit :
> 
> Hi All,
>  
> On the night of Saturday the 27th of May, 2017, while having drinks at the bar, after a week of intense pressure related to concerns about the event, and under the influence of a few beers, as a cultural gesture of reconciliation, I delivered a drink to Dr. Quaynor.  This is customary and is done as a show of reconciliation.
>  
> However, when delivering that drink, it seems that I made a mistake with the words that I used and offense was taken.  This was not intended and for the offense caused, I offer an unreserved apology.  I also need to reiterate that anything said was in no way in my capacity as a board member, and was done on a personal basis.
>  
> Again, if I have caused offense, I apologize and it was unintended.
>  
> Yours Sincerely
>  
> Andrew Alston
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

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From madomey at hotmail.com  Mon May 29 14:21:54 2017
From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 14:21:54 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <CAGDMR_fc-4kgQDw=b5hoqhxLXJ12CFmJWL8pTRXVAO7m2+7Jgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>,
 <CAGDMR_fc-4kgQDw=b5hoqhxLXJ12CFmJWL8pTRXVAO7m2+7Jgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DB6PR06MB30627E650490ADA0FAADD530B9F30@DB6PR06MB3062.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Community,

It is common knowledge that when a  man wants to misbehave, he pretends to be  under the influence  of alcohol. It is unfortunate Andrew is taking this community for granted with his disruptive and calculated misbehavior. The theatrics is becoming one too many; enough of this drama.

Thanks


Marcus

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>

________________________________
From: Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2017 12:46:28 PM
To: Andrew Alston
Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor

Hi Community

French version, English version after

Bonjour ch?re communaut?,

Non M. Alston cela ne s'est pas pass? comme ?a. Nous ?tions nombreaux ? ?tre assis en cercle au salon int?rieur du bar, et toi ? la terrasse ext?rieur,  et tu as pu dans le noir identifi? la position de Prof Nii pour  mener ton action. Chez nous un adage dit "Une souris, m?me saoul?e n'oublie jamais le carrefour du chat". Si tu respectais Prof tu n'aurais jamais pos? cet acte, m?me saoul?. Ce n'est pas la premi?re fois que tu tiens ce genre de comportement, puis tu pr?sente des plates excuses, trop c'est trop, il est temps que le Board prenne ses responsabilit?s et te virer de leur sain car tu est n?faste pour eux et pour la communaut?. Par cons?quent je t'invite personnellement en temps que membre de la communaut?, respectueux des ain?s, ? bien vouloir d?missionner de ton poste, et ne plus te pr?senter, car tu n'en es pas digne.

Pr?sent? une bouteille de bi?re d?j? ouverte et entam?e, ? un ain? ne rel?ve d'aucune culture, mais de la moquerie, surtout avec la phrase qui l'a accompagn?e : " si tu n'as pas les moyens de te l'offrir, voici une bi?re pour toi tout seul"  tu es venu volontairement nargu? Prof devant nous.

Je connais le code de conduite pas besoin qu'on me le rappelle et je suis pr?t ? assumer les cons?quences.

C'est facile de dire que je ne le fais pas en temps que membre du board, on s'en fou, si tu aime faire des choses en ton nom personnel, pardon d?missiones  et ne te repr?sente plus. Et tu auras la latitude de faire ce que tu veux en ton nom personnel. Mais tant que tu es membre du board tu as droit ? de la retenue, cela n'a pas besoin d'?tre ?crit quelque part, ?a rel?ve du bon sens et de la bonne ?ducation. Chez nous, en Afrique on respect les ain?s qui se respectent.

Arnaud

English version

No Mr. Alston it did not happen like that. There were many of us sitting in a circle in the bar's interior lounge, and you on the outside terrace, and in the dark you were able to identify Prof Nii's position to carry out your action. It's said "A mouse, even drunk, never forgets the crossroads of the cat." If you respected Prof, you would never have done this, even drunk. This is not the first time you have this kind of behavior, and then you apologies, too much is too much, it's time for the Board to take his responsibility and get rid of you,  because you are harmful to them And to the community. Therefore I invite you personally as a member of the community, respectful of elders, to resign, and not run again for board position, because you are not worthy. I'm sorry to be rough, but you deserve it.

Presented a bottle of beer already opened and started, to an elder, does not belong to any culture, but mockery, especially with the sentence that accompanied it: "if you cannot afford, Here's a beer for you only" you came willingly taunted Prof in front of  us. Hummm!

I know the code of conduct no need to be reminded of it and I am willing to bear the consequences.

It's easy to say that I do not do it as a member of the board, we do not care, if you like  doing things in your capacity, pardon resign  and no longer represent yourself. And you will have the latitude to do what you want in your own capacity. But as long as you are a member of the board you should have some decorum, it does not need to be written somewhere, it is common sense and good education.

Arnaud


2017-05-29 10:30 GMT+00:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>:
Hi All,

On the night of Saturday the 27th of May, 2017, while having drinks at the bar, after a week of intense pressure related to concerns about the event, and under the influence of a few beers, as a cultural gesture of reconciliation, I delivered a drink to Dr. Quaynor.  This is customary and is done as a show of reconciliation.

However, when delivering that drink, it seems that I made a mistake with the words that I used and offense was taken.  This was not intended and for the offense caused, I offer an unreserved apology.  I also need to reiterate that anything said was in no way in my capacity as a board member, and was done on a personal basis.

Again, if I have caused offense, I apologize and it was unintended.

Yours Sincerely

Andrew Alston


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss


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From mgnalou at gmail.com  Mon May 29 15:27:02 2017
From: mgnalou at gmail.com (Mazama Gnalou)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 15:27:02 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <DB6PR06MB30627E650490ADA0FAADD530B9F30@DB6PR06MB3062.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAGDMR_fc-4kgQDw=b5hoqhxLXJ12CFmJWL8pTRXVAO7m2+7Jgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DB6PR06MB30627E650490ADA0FAADD530B9F30@DB6PR06MB3062.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAPvop57GedS__QMp3wOFK3rKvQjkhrwnchLzaLqpXEEBX8ZqGA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear community;

As a saying goes,
An avowed fault is half forgiven.
Let us avoid such incidents in the future to give good examples to future
generations.

===========================================

French version

Chere Communaut?;
comme le dit un dicton ,
une faute avou? est ? moiti? pardonn?e.
?vitons de tel incidents dans le futur pour donner de bon exemples aux
g?n?ration futures.

Thanks



*GNALOU MAzama-esso*


*Datacom engineer *




*skype: mgnalou 00228 90 39 82 83 00228 22 34 38 82 *



2017-05-29 14:21 GMT+00:00 Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>:

> Dear Community,
>
> It is common knowledge that when a  man wants to misbehave, he pretends to
> be  under the influence  of alcohol. It is unfortunate Andrew is taking
> this community for granted with his disruptive and calculated misbehavior.
> The theatrics is becoming one too many; enough of this drama.
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Marcus
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, May 29, 2017 12:46:28 PM
> *To:* Andrew Alston
> *Cc:* community-discuss at afrinic.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof.
> Quaynor
>
> Hi Community
>
> French version, English version after
>
> Bonjour ch?re communaut?,
>
> Non M. Alston cela ne s'est pas pass? comme ?a. Nous ?tions nombreaux ?
> ?tre assis en cercle au salon int?rieur du bar, et toi ? la terrasse
> ext?rieur,  et tu as pu dans le noir identifi? la position de Prof Nii
> pour  mener ton action. Chez nous un adage dit "Une souris, m?me saoul?e
> n'oublie jamais le carrefour du chat". Si tu respectais Prof tu n'aurais
> jamais pos? cet acte, m?me saoul?. Ce n'est pas la premi?re fois que tu
> tiens ce genre de comportement, puis tu pr?sente des plates excuses, trop
> c'est trop, il est temps que le Board prenne ses responsabilit?s et te
> virer de leur sain car tu est n?faste pour eux et pour la communaut?. Par
> cons?quent je t'invite personnellement en temps que membre de la
> communaut?, respectueux des ain?s, ? bien vouloir d?missionner de ton
> poste, et ne plus te pr?senter, car tu n'en es pas digne.
>
> Pr?sent? une bouteille de bi?re d?j? ouverte et entam?e, ? un ain? ne
> rel?ve d'aucune culture, mais de la moquerie, surtout avec la phrase qui
> l'a accompagn?e : " si tu n'as pas les moyens de te l'offrir, voici une
> bi?re pour toi tout seul"  tu es venu volontairement nargu? Prof devant
> nous.
>
> Je connais le code de conduite pas besoin qu'on me le rappelle et je suis
> pr?t ? assumer les cons?quences.
>
> C'est facile de dire que je ne le fais pas en temps que membre du board,
> on s'en fou, si tu aime faire des choses en ton nom personnel, pardon
> d?missiones  et ne te repr?sente plus. Et tu auras la latitude de faire ce
> que tu veux en ton nom personnel. Mais tant que tu es membre du board tu as
> droit ? de la retenue, cela n'a pas besoin d'?tre ?crit quelque part, ?a
> rel?ve du bon sens et de la bonne ?ducation. Chez nous, en Afrique on
> respect les ain?s qui se respectent.
>
> Arnaud
>
> English version
>
> No Mr. Alston it did not happen like that. There were many of us sitting
> in a circle in the bar's interior lounge, and you on the outside terrace,
> and in the dark you were able to identify Prof Nii's position to carry out
> your action. It's said "A mouse, even drunk, never forgets the crossroads
> of the cat." If you respected Prof, you would never have done this, even
> drunk. This is not the first time you have this kind of behavior, and then
> you apologies, too much is too much, it's time for the Board to take his
> responsibility and get rid of you,  because you are harmful to them And to
> the community. Therefore I invite you personally as a member of the
> community, respectful of elders, to resign, and not run again for board
> position, because you are not worthy. I'm sorry to be rough, but you
> deserve it.
>
> Presented a bottle of beer already opened and started, to an elder, does
> not belong to any culture, but mockery, especially with the sentence that
> accompanied it: "if you cannot afford, Here's a beer for you only" you came
> willingly taunted Prof in front of  us. Hummm!
>
> I know the code of conduct no need to be reminded of it and I am willing
> to bear the consequences.
>
> It's easy to say that I do not do it as a member of the board, we do not
> care, if you like  doing things in your capacity, pardon resign  and no
> longer represent yourself. And you will have the latitude to do what you
> want in your own capacity. But as long as you are a member of the board you
> should have some decorum, it does not need to be written somewhere, it is
> common sense and good education.
>
> Arnaud
>
>
> 2017-05-29 10:30 GMT+00:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> :
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>>
>>
>> On the night of Saturday the 27th of May, 2017, while having drinks at
>> the bar, after a week of intense pressure related to concerns about the
>> event, and under the influence of a few beers, as a cultural gesture of
>> reconciliation, I delivered a drink to Dr. Quaynor.  This is customary and
>> is done as a show of reconciliation.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, when delivering that drink, it seems that I made a mistake with
>> the words that I used and offense was taken.  This was not intended and for
>> the offense caused, I offer an unreserved apology.  I also need to
>> reiterate that anything said was in no way in my capacity as a board
>> member, and was done on a personal basis.
>>
>>
>>
>> Again, if I have caused offense, I apologize and it was unintended.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours Sincerely
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew Alston
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From mirriamlauren at yahoo.com  Mon May 29 16:36:00 2017
From: mirriamlauren at yahoo.com (Mirriam)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 16:36:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <CAPvop57GedS__QMp3wOFK3rKvQjkhrwnchLzaLqpXEEBX8ZqGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAGDMR_fc-4kgQDw=b5hoqhxLXJ12CFmJWL8pTRXVAO7m2+7Jgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <DB6PR06MB30627E650490ADA0FAADD530B9F30@DB6PR06MB3062.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAPvop57GedS__QMp3wOFK3rKvQjkhrwnchLzaLqpXEEBX8ZqGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2100984145.1982729.1496075760216@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Community,
>From what i have read, clearly there is a problem with one Andrew and if he is a Board member, where is the Chairman in all this.
Concerned member.Mirriam

On Monday, May 29, 2017, 6:27:41 PM GMT+3, Mazama Gnalou <mgnalou at gmail.com> wrote:
Dear community;

As a saying goes,
An avowed fault is half forgiven.
Let us avoid such incidents in the future to give good examples to future generations.

===========================================

French version

Chere Communaut?;
comme le dit un dicton , 
une faute avou? est ? moiti? pardonn?e. 
?vitons de tel incidents dans le futur pour donner de bon exemples aux g?n?ration futures.

Thanks

GNALOU MAzama-esso

Datacom engineer 

skype: mgnalou 

00228 90 39 82 83 

00228 22 34 38 82 



2017-05-29 14:21 GMT+00:00 Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com>:

Dear Community,

It is common knowledge that when a? man wants to misbehave, he pretends to be? under the influence? of alcohol. It is unfortunate Andrew is taking this community for granted with his disruptive and calculated misbehavior. The theatrics is becoming one too many; enough of this drama.

Thanks


Marcus

Get Outlook for Android
From: Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2017 12:46:28 PM
To: Andrew Alston
Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor?Hi Community 

French version, English version after

Bonjour ch?re communaut?, 

Non M. Alston cela ne s'est pas pass? comme ?a. Nous ?tions nombreaux ? ?tre assis en cercle au salon int?rieur du bar, et toi ? la terrasse ext?rieur,? et tu as pu dans le noir identifi? la position de Prof Nii pour? mener ton action. Chez nous un adage dit "Une souris, m?me saoul?e n'oublie jamais le carrefour du chat". Si tu respectais Prof tu n'aurais jamais pos? cet acte, m?me saoul?. Ce n'est pas la premi?re fois que tu tiens ce genre de comportement, puis tu pr?sente des plates excuses, trop c'est trop, il est temps que le Board prenne ses responsabilit?s et te virer de leur sain car tu est n?faste pour eux et pour la communaut?. Par cons?quent je t'invite personnellement en temps que membre de la communaut?, respectueux des ain?s, ? bien vouloir d?missionner de ton poste, et ne plus te pr?senter, car tu n'en es pas digne.

Pr?sent? une bouteille de bi?re d?j? ouverte et entam?e, ? un ain? ne rel?ve d'aucune culture, mais de la moquerie, surtout avec la phrase qui l'a accompagn?e : " si tu n'as pas les moyens de te l'offrir, voici une bi?re pour toi tout seul"? tu es venu volontairement nargu? Prof devant nous. 

Je connais le code de conduite pas besoin qu'on me le rappelle et je suis pr?t ? assumer les cons?quences.

C'est facile de dire que je ne le fais pas en temps que membre du board, on s'en fou, si tu aime faire des choses en ton nom personnel, pardon d?missiones? et ne te repr?sente plus. Et tu auras la latitude de faire ce que tu veux en ton nom personnel. Mais tant que tu es membre du board tu as droit ? de la retenue, cela n'a pas besoin d'?tre ?crit quelque part, ?a rel?ve du bon sens et de la bonne ?ducation. Chez nous, en Afrique on respect les ain?s qui se respectent.?

Arnaud 

English version

No Mr. Alston it did not happen like that. There were many of us sitting in a circle in the bar's interior lounge, and you on the outside terrace, and in the dark you were able to identify Prof Nii's position to carry out your action. It's said "A mouse, even drunk, never forgets the crossroads of the cat." If you respected Prof, you would never have done this, even drunk. This is not the first time you have this kind of behavior, and then you apologies, too much is too much, it's time for the Board to take his responsibility and get rid of you,? because you are harmful to them And to the community. Therefore I invite you personally as a member of the community, respectful of elders, to resign, and not run again for board position, because you are not worthy. I'm sorry to be rough, but you deserve it.

Presented a bottle of beer already opened and started, to an elder, does not belong to any culture, but mockery, especially with the sentence that accompanied it: "if you cannot afford, Here's a beer for you only" you came willingly taunted Prof in front of? us. Hummm! 

I know the code of conduct no need to be reminded of it and I am willing to bear the consequences.

It's easy to say that I do not do it as a member of the board, we do not care, if you like? doing things in your capacity, pardon resign? and no longer represent yourself. And you will have the latitude to do what you want in your own capacity. But as long as you are a member of the board you should have some decorum, it does not need to be written somewhere, it is common sense and good education.

Arnaud


2017-05-29 10:30 GMT+00:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom. com>:


Hi All,

?

On the night of Saturday the 27th of May, 2017, while having drinks at the bar, after a week of intense pressure related to concerns about the event, and under the influence of a few beers, as a cultural gesture of reconciliation, I delivered a drink to Dr. Quaynor.? This is customary and is done as a show of reconciliation.

?

However, when delivering that drink, it seems that I made a mistake with the words that I used and offense was taken.? This was not intended and for the offense caused, I offer an unreserved apology.? I also need to reiterate that anything said was in no way in my capacity as a board member, and was done on a personal basis.

?

Again, if I have caused offense, I apologize and it was unintended.

?

Yours Sincerely

?

Andrew Alston

?

______________________________ _________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mail man/listinfo/community-discuss




______________________________ _________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/ mailman/listinfo/community- discuss



_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
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From virtual.borg at gmail.com  Mon May 29 18:20:55 2017
From: virtual.borg at gmail.com (Chevalier du Borg)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 21:20:55 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5aO8ezVDqVHOAsdXyrKM40ntuypQeTEZgCDtQPkH452OAbpw@mail.gmail.com>

True apology is

1. You go apologize to Dr. Nii first and ask his forgiveness
2. You can also apologize to the people who witness incident
3. Then you can send this email

If you had do step 1 first and 2, then you will not get the response people
are saying now. But it not too late, you can still go ask forgiveness of Dr
Nii.

2017-05-29 13:30 GMT+03:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>:

> Hi All,
>
>
>
> On the night of Saturday the 27th of May, 2017, while having drinks at
> the bar, after a week of intense pressure related to concerns about the
> event, and under the influence of a few beers, as a cultural gesture of
> reconciliation, I delivered a drink to Dr. Quaynor.  This is customary and
> is done as a show of reconciliation.
>
>
>
> However, when delivering that drink, it seems that I made a mistake with
> the words that I used and offense was taken.  This was not intended and for
> the offense caused, I offer an unreserved apology.  I also need to
> reiterate that anything said was in no way in my capacity as a board
> member, and was done on a personal basis.
>
>
>
> Again, if I have caused offense, I apologize and it was unintended.
>
>
>
> Yours Sincerely
>
>
>
> Andrew Alston
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>


-- 
Borg le Chevalier
___________________________________
"Common sense is what tells us the world is flat"
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From akirizal at gmail.com  Mon May 29 19:43:18 2017
From: akirizal at gmail.com (Lydea Akiriza)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 22:43:18 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
Message-ID: <CA+O0tSkxjcYNT+rWmpCmpN9wBWtfLOpuyw8Kpi9UcfFYsJVBpQ@mail.gmail.com>

My two cents:

Kind regards to us all. I try to give people benefit of doubt, seeing as we
are all human, we definitely make stupid mistakes all the time!

Thing is, I attended my first AIS meeting in Tunisia, second in Botswana,
and now I should be attending this one in Kenya. I hate to say however that
I am appalled at your precedence Andrew.
For the mentioned times I have attended, you have, either as a community or
board member without question  ALWAYS had to grace the community with a
NECESSARY apology for something uncultured or uncouth you have either DONE
or SAID.

It seems to be your carry-forward trend as a community and worse as a board
member to show disrespect alongside  a disdainful show of authority and bad
language use at the meetings I have graced.

As a personal opinion, I feel that it has gone on too long! You have
'apologized' atleast twice, without consequences and that is an
uncomfortable stand for this community to take, in my
'new-community-member' opinion.
As a community we need to learn to forgive yes, but with the same measure,
learn to hold people accountable for their show of disregard for code of
conduct or anything less than the values we, as a community strive to stand
for.

Your ability to do and say things that are disdainfully disrespective in
many ways and at many levels I believe warrants for this community that you
are supposed to serve/represent to hold you accountable, and this, your
'un-apologetic apology' in my view just doesnt cut it as this isnt your
first or second time to do or say something for which you apologized your
way out of.

For lack of a better way of putting it, you being a board member and acting
in that manner leaves you completely wanting.
I should be learning from you, but I worry if I have to learn from you to
serve this community. You owe this community better, measure up and stop
making 'alcohol excuses' or respectfully bow out of service.
Whatever your greviances, learn to address them as one serving this
community, not your ego or personal interests.

My two cents.






On 29 May 2017 1:30 pm, "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
wrote:

> Hi All,
>
>
>
> On the night of Saturday the 27th of May, 2017, while having drinks at
> the bar, after a week of intense pressure related to concerns about the
> event, and under the influence of a few beers, as a cultural gesture of
> reconciliation, I delivered a drink to Dr. Quaynor.  This is customary and
> is done as a show of reconciliation.
>
>
>
> However, when delivering that drink, it seems that I made a mistake with
> the words that I used and offense was taken.  This was not intended and for
> the offense caused, I offer an unreserved apology.  I also need to
> reiterate that anything said was in no way in my capacity as a board
> member, and was done on a personal basis.
>
>
>
> Again, if I have caused offense, I apologize and it was unintended.
>
>
>
> Yours Sincerely
>
>
>
> Andrew Alston
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From biaous2002 at gmail.com  Mon May 29 22:00:05 2017
From: biaous2002 at gmail.com (Ramanou S. BIAOU)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 00:00:05 +0200
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <CAH5aO8ezVDqVHOAsdXyrKM40ntuypQeTEZgCDtQPkH452OAbpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAH5aO8ezVDqVHOAsdXyrKM40ntuypQeTEZgCDtQPkH452OAbpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN65CNyyqeTaE0dHTiDeMOBS5BUqv4iLCHCfniEbLZ-La5GToQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,
How this person (With bad qualities) became a AfriNIC Board member
???


Ramanou

2017-05-29 20:20 GMT+02:00 Chevalier du Borg <virtual.borg at gmail.com>:

> True apology is
>
> 1. You go apologize to Dr. Nii first and ask his forgiveness
> 2. You can also apologize to the people who witness incident
> 3. Then you can send this email
>
> If you had do step 1 first and 2, then you will not get the response
> people are saying now. But it not too late, you can still go ask
> forgiveness of Dr Nii.
>
> 2017-05-29 13:30 GMT+03:00 Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> :
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>>
>>
>> On the night of Saturday the 27th of May, 2017, while having drinks at
>> the bar, after a week of intense pressure related to concerns about the
>> event, and under the influence of a few beers, as a cultural gesture of
>> reconciliation, I delivered a drink to Dr. Quaynor.  This is customary and
>> is done as a show of reconciliation.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, when delivering that drink, it seems that I made a mistake with
>> the words that I used and offense was taken.  This was not intended and for
>> the offense caused, I offer an unreserved apology.  I also need to
>> reiterate that anything said was in no way in my capacity as a board
>> member, and was done on a personal basis.
>>
>>
>>
>> Again, if I have caused offense, I apologize and it was unintended.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours Sincerely
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrew Alston
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Borg le Chevalier
> ___________________________________
> "Common sense is what tells us the world is flat"
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>


-- 

*--BIAOU Ramanou**--*
--www.biaou.net--
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From jnoulaye at gmail.com  Tue May 30 13:29:47 2017
From: jnoulaye at gmail.com (Janvier NGNOULAYE)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 16:29:47 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Our Cameroon case as one case study in solving
 an Internet shutdown in a country.
Message-ID: <CAMitOTiJ7D+YRMJjqtGXAzJFJZFP9y0Y8U8L5A+jz8PHsiSh1A@mail.gmail.com>

Our  Cameroon case as one case study in solving an Internet shutdown in a
country.
The facts:
- in november 2016 the government  of Cameroon shut down Internet in two
regions in Cameroon
- in december I convened the  ISOC Chapter Officers meeting  to noting and
deploring that government action,
- in january 2017, I convened the Chapter board meeting to reacting against
that action of the government, that board meeting ended up with 2 main
actions: - a) one statement in line with the ISOC vision,  -b) and a letter
to the government through the Minister of telecommunications. You can read
that statement below, which had been sent to  various  mailing lists. The 2
pages letter sent to the government mentionned the impact of that shutting
down on the national economy, with the advices, recommandations and
training tracks, to solve the issue for the sake of every stakeolder. (I
can share that letter  to the government with you inbox)
- As the Chapter is part of the steering committee of the Internet exchange
point of Cameroon (CAMIX), I also raised the issue with the ISP during one
of the CAMIX monthly meeting, where the members strongly supported that
Chapter statement on the matter.
- At the same time, other national civil organizations and abroad also
raised up the statement against that suspension of the Internet.
- With all these actions, the governement removed the suspension of
Internet  in April and today the Internet is working every where around the
country.
 A lesson learn here is that, as an ISOC Chapter, we did not only  make a
statement against the suspension, but we also met the goverment and  the
ISP with advices and practical recommandations. In the meantime, we did not
make any insult word to them because of  their action. Our approch was more
collaborative with all the stakeolders.

Unfortunately some misinformation and misunderstanding have been circulated
saying that I supported the suspension of the Internet. Please, do not
trust  thoses wrong informations on me.  My committement so far is  to work
and will  continue to work for the open access of Internet for everyone and
erverywhere as well  at the national and regional  level as  at global
level.
Hopefuly  that this mail clarified everything now .

I remain at your disposal to give more details you may need.
Warm regards

Dr. Janvier Ngnoulaye
Senior Lecturer of Computer Science and Educational technology
University of Yaounde I, Cameroon
Executive Committee member of the Internet Exchange Point of Cameroon
President of ISOC Cameroon Chapter
Tel: +237 677 72 03 34



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
Date: 2017-02-03 13:56 GMT+03:00
Subject: Statement and clarifications of ISOC Cameroon on the Internet
shutdowns in Cameroon
To: Internet Governance <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, willi uebelherr <
willi.uebelherr at riseup.net>
Cc: ISOC Internet Policy <internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org>


?Dear Internet member Community,
Many misundertanding have been circulated throught lot of mailing lists
about the Internet shutdowns in Cameroon.
Please note that.
1) ISOC Cameroon Chapter with all the members do not support any form of
Internet shutdowns.
2) After the Annual General Assembly hold on 28 january 2017, the members
of the Chapter condemned that action in Cameroon and took the resolution to
engage in conversations with the government. We will keep you updated on
the development undertaken.
3) ISOC Cameroon Chapter is in line with the statement that Internet
Society published as a reference for such matters (
https://www.internetsociety.org/lets-keep-internet-everyone)
Thank you for any support and advice to us on the ground.

------------------------------
Janvier Ngnoulaye, Ph.D
ICT Teacher at the University
President of the ISOC Cameroon Chapter.
Activist of "The Internet is for everyone"
http://www.internetsociety.cm/
------------------------------?
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From owen at delong.com  Tue May 30 13:41:59 2017
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 16:41:59 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <CAN65CNyyqeTaE0dHTiDeMOBS5BUqv4iLCHCfniEbLZ-La5GToQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAH5aO8ezVDqVHOAsdXyrKM40ntuypQeTEZgCDtQPkH452OAbpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN65CNyyqeTaE0dHTiDeMOBS5BUqv4iLCHCfniEbLZ-La5GToQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DD3F23B3-8B77-4CB5-BEB3-3FA0DC3EBD44@delong.com>


> On May 30, 2017, at 1:00 AM, Ramanou S. BIAOU <biaous2002 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> How this person (With bad qualities) became a AfriNIC Board member???
> 
> Ramanou

I have known Nii and Andrew for several years now and attended several AfriNIC meetings over that time.

I will not defend Andrew?s actions in this event. They are, in fact, indefensible.

However, I will say that all AfriNIC board members are human beings. As humans, we all have our bad and our good qualities.

In Andrew?s case, his user interface is one of his worst qualities. He often lets passion get the better of his judgment and I hope he will learn from this incident to exercise better judgment going forward.

However, I also know that deep down in his heart, Andrew is passionate about trying to do right by this community and has given quite a bit of his time in service to this community. He is often his own worst enemy and this is no exception. However, his heart is in the right place and I would hate to see his service to the community obscured behind the problems with his user interface.

Owen

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From owen at delong.com  Tue May 30 13:43:16 2017
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 16:43:16 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] List reply-to address
In-Reply-To: <4A42FDC0-918E-41FD-866E-F916BBFA60DA@afrinic.net>
References: <66EA5281-23B7-4E2F-A866-64B2EC401FF8@afrinic.net>
 <4951DB9B-6106-4764-86BD-3FE08DD71E68@wacren.net>
 <AF3563CB-ED8E-4AB4-934F-56CBF71D8451@afrinic.net>
 <CAKWXZPZ0DFmvV9TraAU8LOR=+z=SHN8PPWZ05QhG35EmpWjctA@mail.gmail.com>
 <AA746631-72A7-4EEC-A340-3A8CA893072D@afrinic.net>
 <070E72C7-90EF-48B7-BAB2-892040E68D23@afrinic.net>
 <c10ec2ce-ce5c-2d55-f28b-5ee7c35e6fe2@tinitop.com>
 <FD3DF8A6-5ACA-42DC-8EF4-350181532C4E@nftconsult.com>
 <8b96d562-0842-bb4c-9026-c89b0853fb43@posix.co.za>
 <D72027B3-D88B-48F8-9C4E-83DA92E2A89B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <006D848C-5FE5-4CC7-A0F6-DFEC45918F72@nftconsult.com>
 <EC0EF0FF-6E40-4334-869F-8C046431F5FB@afrinic.net>
 <6A8D2AF5-4AD9-487B-92E6-D0FB9121DDD4@trstech.net>
 <6524FA98-0B3F-452A-B70E-485DE2AB41D6@liquidtelecom.com>
 <4FD9A772-C426-4263-8DE9-25BD97C27D98@nftconsult.com>
 <F241B490-4E5B-4A83-BC6B-C11305E222C5@afrinic.net>
 <28CE8EF2-B9AE-4D5A-8A6C-5104681A9085@liquidtelecom.com>
 <F3F0A510-8FCC-4844-BDEE-5F7A5D731548@afrinic.net> <57EE4C15.90909!
 01@afrinic.net> <D99E0628-6358-48B1-8D3A-EA5A24E7B15E@afrinic.net>
 <CAD_dc6hU=1CBpypawKMn7xbt_4oiXy0F1BkBNU-_i+2E-24=NQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4A42FDC0-918E-41FD-866E-F916BBFA60DA@afrinic.net>
Message-ID: <F66E2C99-50E6-40BD-BE2D-26D3E4882DCA@delong.com>

I strongly support Alan?s position. (Sent deliberately to the list using reply-all).

Owen

> On Sep 30, 2016, at 6:26 PM, Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net> wrote:
> 
> On 30 Sep 2016, at 16:55, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 30 Sep 2016 13:25, "Alan Barrett" <alan.barrett at afrinic.net> wrote:
>>> and I have asked for the mailing list configuration to be changed so that it does not automatically add a ?Reply-To? header in future.
>> SO: I will suggest not to modify the list settings. Most of the time people hit reply and their mails goes as PM. I think it's absolutely fine for a community list like this to have a default response to the community. One can always do a formal withdrawal OR be mindful of who he/she is replying to before hitting the send button.
> 
> There is no good answer, but I seek to minimise the harm done by mistakes.
> 
> If the list does not add a reply-to address then there are two kind of mistakes, neither of them very serious:
> 1. Things that were intended as list replies are accidentally sent as personal replies.  trivial problem; they can be re-sent.
> 2. Things intended as list replies accidentally accumulate a long list of cc: addresses.  Minor problem; the people in the CC list get multiple copies of messages.
> 
> If the list does add a reply-to address, then there is one kind of very serous mistake:
> 3. Things that were intended as personal replies accidentally get sent to the list.  This is potentially a huge problem, as confidential information can be made public.
> 
> Therefore, to minimise the harm done by mistakes, the list should not add a reply-to address to messages.
> 
> I realise that this is debatable, but that?s my position.
> 
> Alan Barrett
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss




From mirriamlauren at yahoo.com  Tue May 30 14:17:49 2017
From: mirriamlauren at yahoo.com (Mirriam)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 14:17:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] List reply-to address
In-Reply-To: <F66E2C99-50E6-40BD-BE2D-26D3E4882DCA@delong.com>
References: <66EA5281-23B7-4E2F-A866-64B2EC401FF8@afrinic.net>
 <4951DB9B-6106-4764-86BD-3FE08DD71E68@wacren.net>
 <AF3563CB-ED8E-4AB4-934F-56CBF71D8451@afrinic.net>
 <CAKWXZPZ0DFmvV9TraAU8LOR=+z=SHN8PPWZ05QhG35EmpWjctA@mail.gmail.com>
 <AA746631-72A7-4EEC-A340-3A8CA893072D@afrinic.net>
 <070E72C7-90EF-48B7-BAB2-892040E68D23@afrinic.net>
 <c10ec2ce-ce5c-2d55-f28b-5ee7c35e6fe2@tinitop.com>
 <FD3DF8A6-5ACA-42DC-8EF4-350181532C4E@nftconsult.com>
 <8b96d562-0842-bb4c-9026-c89b0853fb43@posix.co.za>
 <D72027B3-D88B-48F8-9C4E-83DA92E2A89B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <006D848C-5FE5-4CC7-A0F6-DFEC45918F72@nftconsult.com>
 <EC0EF0FF-6E40-4334-869F-8C046431F5FB@afrinic.net>
 <6A8D2AF5-4AD9-487B-92E6-D0FB9121DDD4@trstech.net>
 <6524FA98-0B3F-452A-B70E-485DE2AB41D6@liquidtelecom.com>
 <4FD9A772-C426-4263-8DE9-25BD97C27D98@nftconsult.com>
 <F241B490-4E5B-4A83-BC6B-C11305E222C5@afrinic.net>
 <28CE8EF2-B9AE-4D5A-8A6C-5104681A9085@liquidtelecom.com>
 <F3F0A510-8FCC-4844-BDEE-5F7A5D731548@afrinic.net> <57EE4C15.90909!
 01@afrinic.net> <D99E0628-6358-48B1-8D3A-EA5A24E7B15E@afrinic.net>
 <CAD_dc6hU=1CBpypawKMn7xbt_4oiXy0F1BkBNU-_i+2E-24=NQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4A42FDC0-918E-41FD-866E-F916BBFA60DA@afrinic.net>
 <F66E2C99-50E6-40BD-BE2D-26D3E4882DCA@delong.com>
Message-ID: <241561727.2580771.1496153869035@mail.yahoo.com>

Owen
Iam not suprised that you are defending someone who could not even first go to oroffesor Nii to apologize in person but choose to use the mailing list.
A sigh that he does not even mean what he wrote herein. He respects no one.
Andrew can continue his service to rhe community but far away from the Afrinic board which he has disgraced time after time.
Mirriam

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 4:44 PM, Owen DeLong<owen at delong.com> wrote:   I strongly support Alan?s position. (Sent deliberately to the list using reply-all).

Owen

> On Sep 30, 2016, at 6:26 PM, Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net> wrote:
> 
> On 30 Sep 2016, at 16:55, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 30 Sep 2016 13:25, "Alan Barrett" <alan.barrett at afrinic.net> wrote:
>>> and I have asked for the mailing list configuration to be changed so that it does not automatically add a ?Reply-To? header in future.
>> SO: I will suggest not to modify the list settings. Most of the time people hit reply and their mails goes as PM. I think it's absolutely fine for a community list like this to have a default response to the community. One can always do a formal withdrawal OR be mindful of who he/she is replying to before hitting the send button.
> 
> There is no good answer, but I seek to minimise the harm done by mistakes.
> 
> If the list does not add a reply-to address then there are two kind of mistakes, neither of them very serious:
> 1. Things that were intended as list replies are accidentally sent as personal replies.? trivial problem; they can be re-sent.
> 2. Things intended as list replies accidentally accumulate a long list of cc: addresses.? Minor problem; the people in the CC list get multiple copies of messages.
> 
> If the list does add a reply-to address, then there is one kind of very serous mistake:
> 3. Things that were intended as personal replies accidentally get sent to the list.? This is potentially a huge problem, as confidential information can be made public.
> 
> Therefore, to minimise the harm done by mistakes, the list should not add a reply-to address to messages.
> 
> I realise that this is debatable, but that?s my position.
> 
> Alan Barrett
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss


_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
  
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From mirriamlauren at yahoo.com  Tue May 30 14:39:30 2017
From: mirriamlauren at yahoo.com (Mirriam)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 14:39:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <DD3F23B3-8B77-4CB5-BEB3-3FA0DC3EBD44@delong.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAH5aO8ezVDqVHOAsdXyrKM40ntuypQeTEZgCDtQPkH452OAbpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN65CNyyqeTaE0dHTiDeMOBS5BUqv4iLCHCfniEbLZ-La5GToQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <DD3F23B3-8B77-4CB5-BEB3-3FA0DC3EBD44@delong.com>
Message-ID: <2093603069.2566368.1496155170765@mail.yahoo.com>

Owen
Iam not suprised that you are defending someone who could not even first go to oroffesor Nii to apologize in person but choose to use the mailing list.
A sigh that he does not even mean what he wrote herein. He respects no one.
Andrew can continue his service to rhe community but far away from the Afrinic board which he has disgraced time after time.
Mirriam
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 4:43 PM, Owen DeLong<owen at delong.com> wrote:   _______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
  
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From benjamin.eshun at gmail.com  Tue May 30 16:04:55 2017
From: benjamin.eshun at gmail.com (Benjamin Eshun)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 16:04:55 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <DD3F23B3-8B77-4CB5-BEB3-3FA0DC3EBD44@delong.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAH5aO8ezVDqVHOAsdXyrKM40ntuypQeTEZgCDtQPkH452OAbpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN65CNyyqeTaE0dHTiDeMOBS5BUqv4iLCHCfniEbLZ-La5GToQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <DD3F23B3-8B77-4CB5-BEB3-3FA0DC3EBD44@delong.com>
Message-ID: <CAMiHrTD5RZiAW_8XBvVoOPfTVODi_ApC4gfhg7JFOX4esZ5Wgg@mail.gmail.com>

Owen

Your genuine comments are duly noted bellow.  But the world over people
with the best intentions to service all mess up somewhere and are
accountable.  We have seen people resign from top positions in the US for
failing to submit information.

What makes it so different for Africa.  250 people are here at AIS because
they have a passion for the community.  No one has a monopoly on passion.

In my book the community has been very clear that this behavior is
unacceptable, and the routine apology won?t work since we know it will
happen again.

I was actually thinking that what powers do Nomcom have in this situation,
since they seem to have put a candidate on the slate who has proven that he
might not be fit to be a board member.

We need to start somewhere and I think this is a perfect place to start.

Andrew needs to do the civil thing accept his weakness and take a break
from the board and reflect on how he can control his behavior to serve the
community better in future.

Benjamin
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From badru.ntege at nftconsult.com  Tue May 30 20:42:09 2017
From: badru.ntege at nftconsult.com (Badru Ntege)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 23:42:09 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <CAMiHrTD5RZiAW_8XBvVoOPfTVODi_ApC4gfhg7JFOX4esZ5Wgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAH5aO8ezVDqVHOAsdXyrKM40ntuypQeTEZgCDtQPkH452OAbpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN65CNyyqeTaE0dHTiDeMOBS5BUqv4iLCHCfniEbLZ-La5GToQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <DD3F23B3-8B77-4CB5-BEB3-3FA0DC3EBD44@delong.com>
 <CAMiHrTD5RZiAW_8XBvVoOPfTVODi_ApC4gfhg7JFOX4esZ5Wgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7B5AEC47-A155-4099-B061-A1D02AEAA2AF@nftconsult.com>

+1



On 5/30/17, 7:04 PM, "Benjamin Eshun" <benjamin.eshun at gmail.com> wrote:

Owen

Your genuine comments are duly noted bellow.  But the world over people with the best intentions to service all mess up somewhere and are accountable.  We have seen people resign from top positions in the US for failing to submit information.

What makes it so different for Africa.  250 people are here at AIS because they have a passion for the community.  No one has a monopoly on passion.

In my book the community has been very clear that this behavior is unacceptable, and the routine apology won?t work since we know it will happen again.

I was actually thinking that what powers do Nomcom have in this situation, since they seem to have put a candidate on the slate who has proven that he might not be fit to be a board member.

We need to start somewhere and I think this is a perfect place to start.  

Andrew needs to do the civil thing accept his weakness and take a break from the board and reflect on how he can control his behavior to serve the community better in future.

Benjamin   



_______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss 

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From kmw.elitcha at gmail.com  Tue May 30 21:00:42 2017
From: kmw.elitcha at gmail.com (abel ELITCHA)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 00:00:42 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Our Cameroon case as one case study in
 solving an Internet shutdown in a country.
In-Reply-To: <CAMitOTiJ7D+YRMJjqtGXAzJFJZFP9y0Y8U8L5A+jz8PHsiSh1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMitOTiJ7D+YRMJjqtGXAzJFJZFP9y0Y8U8L5A+jz8PHsiSh1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN0q0kHLe4FXHnREnMihMyE0--YPhZqK_dW_4zE8=A7iv1+zsA@mail.gmail.com>

Janvier,

If your methods above worked.

Why havent you opposed the draconic policy on anti-shutdown against
sovereigns states.

And actually this is the 1st time I am seeing you active on the mailing
list as a former Afrinic board member.

We wont buy your rhetorics this time around as this seems like a campaign
strategy.

Thanks.

Le 30 mai 2017 16:30, "Janvier NGNOULAYE" <jnoulaye at gmail.com> a ?crit :

> Our  Cameroon case as one case study in solving an Internet shutdown in a
> country.
> The facts:
> - in november 2016 the government  of Cameroon shut down Internet in two
> regions in Cameroon
> - in december I convened the  ISOC Chapter Officers meeting  to noting and
> deploring that government action,
> - in january 2017, I convened the Chapter board meeting to reacting
> against that action of the government, that board meeting ended up with 2
> main actions: - a) one statement in line with the ISOC vision,  -b) and a
> letter to the government through the Minister of telecommunications. You
> can read that statement below, which had been sent to  various  mailing
> lists. The 2 pages letter sent to the government mentionned the impact of
> that shutting down on the national economy, with the advices,
> recommandations and training tracks, to solve the issue for the sake of
> every stakeolder. (I can share that letter  to the government with you
> inbox)
> - As the Chapter is part of the steering committee of the Internet
> exchange point of Cameroon (CAMIX), I also raised the issue with the ISP
> during one of the CAMIX monthly meeting, where the members strongly
> supported that Chapter statement on the matter.
> - At the same time, other national civil organizations and abroad also
> raised up the statement against that suspension of the Internet.
> - With all these actions, the governement removed the suspension of
> Internet  in April and today the Internet is working every where around the
> country.
>  A lesson learn here is that, as an ISOC Chapter, we did not only  make a
> statement against the suspension, but we also met the goverment and  the
> ISP with advices and practical recommandations. In the meantime, we did not
> make any insult word to them because of  their action. Our approch was more
> collaborative with all the stakeolders.
>
> Unfortunately some misinformation and misunderstanding have been
> circulated saying that I supported the suspension of the Internet. Please,
> do not trust  thoses wrong informations on me.  My committement so far is
>  to work and will  continue to work for the open access of Internet for
> everyone and erverywhere as well  at the national and regional  level as
>  at global level.
> Hopefuly  that this mail clarified everything now .
>
> I remain at your disposal to give more details you may need.
> Warm regards
>
> Dr. Janvier Ngnoulaye
> Senior Lecturer of Computer Science and Educational technology
> University of Yaounde I, Cameroon
> Executive Committee member of the Internet Exchange Point of Cameroon
> President of ISOC Cameroon Chapter
> Tel: +237 677 72 03 34 <+237%206%2077%2072%2003%2034>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
> Date: 2017-02-03 13:56 GMT+03:00
> Subject: Statement and clarifications of ISOC Cameroon on the Internet
> shutdowns in Cameroon
> To: Internet Governance <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, willi uebelherr <
> willi.uebelherr at riseup.net>
> Cc: ISOC Internet Policy <internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org>
>
>
> ?Dear Internet member Community,
> Many misundertanding have been circulated throught lot of mailing lists
> about the Internet shutdowns in Cameroon.
> Please note that.
> 1) ISOC Cameroon Chapter with all the members do not support any form of
> Internet shutdowns.
> 2) After the Annual General Assembly hold on 28 january 2017, the members
> of the Chapter condemned that action in Cameroon and took the resolution to
> engage in conversations with the government. We will keep you updated on
> the development undertaken.
> 3) ISOC Cameroon Chapter is in line with the statement that Internet
> Society published as a reference for such matters (
> https://www.internetsociety.org/lets-keep-internet-everyone)
> Thank you for any support and advice to us on the ground.
>
> ------------------------------
> Janvier Ngnoulaye, Ph.D
> ICT Teacher at the University
> President of the ISOC Cameroon Chapter.
> Activist of "The Internet is for everyone"
> http://www.internetsociety.cm/
> ------------------------------?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From boubakarbarry at gmail.com  Wed May 31 00:02:50 2017
From: boubakarbarry at gmail.com (Boubakar Barry)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 00:02:50 +0000
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <7B5AEC47-A155-4099-B061-A1D02AEAA2AF@nftconsult.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAH5aO8ezVDqVHOAsdXyrKM40ntuypQeTEZgCDtQPkH452OAbpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN65CNyyqeTaE0dHTiDeMOBS5BUqv4iLCHCfniEbLZ-La5GToQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <DD3F23B3-8B77-4CB5-BEB3-3FA0DC3EBD44@delong.com>
 <CAMiHrTD5RZiAW_8XBvVoOPfTVODi_ApC4gfhg7JFOX4esZ5Wgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7B5AEC47-A155-4099-B061-A1D02AEAA2AF@nftconsult.com>
Message-ID: <CAGrBSSjaeS3BL1O0M4MFn5ACJ2Kg-_XSoqykYiU1779So0R6QQ@mail.gmail.com>

Given past and recent events, if I were at AIS17, I would recommend Andrew
face to face to take some "leave" from wanting to serve in governing bodies
such as the AfriNIC Board.

He has been involved for many years in too many discussions/actions that
are more controversial than conciliation acts.

I would recommend him to think about how he can serve our community
differently and better, and not necessarily from his current position.

At least for now.

Boubakar


On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 8:42 PM, Badru Ntege <badru.ntege at nftconsult.com>
wrote:

> +1
>
>
>
> On 5/30/17, 7:04 PM, "Benjamin Eshun" <benjamin.eshun at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Owen
>
> Your genuine comments are duly noted bellow.  But the world over people
> with the best intentions to service all mess up somewhere and are
> accountable.  We have seen people resign from top positions in the US for
> failing to submit information.
>
> What makes it so different for Africa.  250 people are here at AIS because
> they have a passion for the community.  No one has a monopoly on passion.
>
> In my book the community has been very clear that this behavior is
> unacceptable, and the routine apology won?t work since we know it will
> happen again.
>
> I was actually thinking that what powers do Nomcom have in this situation,
> since they seem to have put a candidate on the slate who has proven that he
> might not be fit to be a board member.
>
> We need to start somewhere and I think this is a perfect place to start.
>
> Andrew needs to do the civil thing accept his weakness and take a break
> from the board and reflect on how he can control his behavior to serve the
> community better in future.
>
> Benjamin
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing
> list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/
> mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From owen at delong.com  Wed May 31 05:01:32 2017
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 08:01:32 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] List reply-to address
In-Reply-To: <241561727.2580771.1496153869035@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <66EA5281-23B7-4E2F-A866-64B2EC401FF8@afrinic.net>
 <4951DB9B-6106-4764-86BD-3FE08DD71E68@wacren.net>
 <AF3563CB-ED8E-4AB4-934F-56CBF71D8451@afrinic.net>
 <CAKWXZPZ0DFmvV9TraAU8LOR=+z=SHN8PPWZ05QhG35EmpWjctA@mail.gmail.com>
 <AA746631-72A7-4EEC-A340-3A8CA893072D@afrinic.net>
 <070E72C7-90EF-48B7-BAB2-892040E68D23@afrinic.net>
 <c10ec2ce-ce5c-2d55-f28b-5ee7c35e6fe2@tinitop.com>
 <FD3DF8A6-5ACA-42DC-8EF4-350181532C4E@nftconsult.com>
 <8b96d562-0842-bb4c-9026-c89b0853fb43@posix.co.za>
 <D72027B3-D88B-48F8-9C4E-83DA92E2A89B@liquidtelecom.com>
 <006D848C-5FE5-4CC7-A0F6-DFEC45918F72@nftconsult.com>
 <EC0EF0FF-6E40-4334-869F-8C046431F5FB@afrinic.net>
 <6A8D2AF5-4AD9-487B-92E6-D0FB9121DDD4@trstech.net>
 <6524FA98-0B3F-452A-B70E-485DE2AB41D6@liquidtelecom.com>
 <4FD9A772-C426-4263-8DE9-25BD97C27D98@nftconsult.com>
 <F241B490-4E5B-4A83-BC6B-C11305E222C5@afrinic.net>
 <28CE8EF2-B9AE-4D5A-8A6C-5104681A9085@liquidtelecom.com>
 <F3F0A510-8FCC-4844-BDEE-5F7A5D731548@afrinic.net> <57EE4C15.90909!
 ! 01@afrinic.net> <D99E0628-6358-48B1-8D3A-EA5A24E7B15E@afrinic.net>
 <CAD_dc6hU=1CBpypawKMn7xbt_4oiXy0F1BkBNU-_i+2E-24=NQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4A42FDC0-918E-41FD-866E-F916BBFA60DA@afrinic.net>
 <F66E2C99-50E6-40BD-BE2D-26D3E4882DCA@delong.com>
 <241561727.2580771.1496153869035@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <23B58EEF-A151-4018-8E91-9A47BBFA999E@delong.com>


> On May 30, 2017, at 5:17 PM, Mirriam <mirriamlauren at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Owen
> 
> Iam not suprised that you are defending someone who could not even first go to oroffesor Nii to apologize in person but choose to use the mailing list.

I am surprised that you are considering my email below to be a defense of anyone.

I am going to presume that you are, instead, replying to a different email in which I did NOT defend Andrew?s actions, but did state my opinion of Andrew?s character.

> A sigh that he does not even mean what he wrote herein. He respects no one.

We can agree to disagree.

> Andrew can continue his service to rhe community but far away from the Afrinic board which he has disgraced time after time.

It is my opinion that would be the board and the community?s loss. Again, we can agree to disagree.

Owen

> 
> Mirriam
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>
> On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 4:44 PM, Owen DeLong
> <owen at delong.com> wrote:
> I strongly support Alan?s position. (Sent deliberately to the list using reply-all).
> 
> Owen
> 
> > On Sep 30, 2016, at 6:26 PM, Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net <mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>> wrote:
> > 
> > On 30 Sep 2016, at 16:55, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji at gmail.com <mailto:seun.ojedeji at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> On 30 Sep 2016 13:25, "Alan Barrett" <alan.barrett at afrinic.net <mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net>> wrote:
> >>> and I have asked for the mailing list configuration to be changed so that it does not automatically add a ?Reply-To? header in future.
> >> SO: I will suggest not to modify the list settings. Most of the time people hit reply and their mails goes as PM. I think it's absolutely fine for a community list like this to have a default response to the community. One can always do a formal withdrawal OR be mindful of who he/she is replying to before hitting the send button.
> > 
> > There is no good answer, but I seek to minimise the harm done by mistakes.
> > 
> > If the list does not add a reply-to address then there are two kind of mistakes, neither of them very serious:
> > 1. Things that were intended as list replies are accidentally sent as personal replies.  trivial problem; they can be re-sent.
> > 2. Things intended as list replies accidentally accumulate a long list of cc: addresses.  Minor problem; the people in the CC list get multiple copies of messages.
> > 
> > If the list does add a reply-to address, then there is one kind of very serous mistake:
> > 3. Things that were intended as personal replies accidentally get sent to the list.  This is potentially a huge problem, as confidential information can be made public.
> > 
> > Therefore, to minimise the harm done by mistakes, the list should not add a reply-to address to messages.
> > 
> > I realise that this is debatable, but that?s my position.
> > 
> > Alan Barrett
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Community-Discuss mailing list
> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss>

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From jrhountomey at gmail.com  Wed May 31 08:34:41 2017
From: jrhountomey at gmail.com (Hountomey Jean Robert)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 03:34:41 -0500
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Incident between myself and Prof. Quaynor
In-Reply-To: <CAGrBSSjaeS3BL1O0M4MFn5ACJ2Kg-_XSoqykYiU1779So0R6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BCFE8EB3-FD85-427C-BA8D-2FE680F4FC60@liquidtelecom.com>
 <CAH5aO8ezVDqVHOAsdXyrKM40ntuypQeTEZgCDtQPkH452OAbpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN65CNyyqeTaE0dHTiDeMOBS5BUqv4iLCHCfniEbLZ-La5GToQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <DD3F23B3-8B77-4CB5-BEB3-3FA0DC3EBD44@delong.com>
 <CAMiHrTD5RZiAW_8XBvVoOPfTVODi_ApC4gfhg7JFOX4esZ5Wgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7B5AEC47-A155-4099-B061-A1D02AEAA2AF@nftconsult.com>
 <CAGrBSSjaeS3BL1O0M4MFn5ACJ2Kg-_XSoqykYiU1779So0R6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANUCqKFyTDRrwmGfVpYjZ9X7UAoGhpr8KzETmifH1eB34ASsRg@mail.gmail.com>

+1 for Boubacar and Benjamin.

> As a saying goes,An avowed fault is half forgiven.

I agree that we all make genuine mistakes. Mr GNALOU, you said an avowed
fault. I hope you agree with me that when you ask for forgiveness, you
admit sincerely your mistakes.
Please where do you see an expression of regret, a declaration of
repentance and an request for forgiveness?

What happened is unacceptable and the email received causes more damage.
The email I have read is an INSULT to Dr NII QUAYNOR , to the Witnesses and
their intellect and to this Community. There is no proper apology, no
avowed fault. The email contains misleading information which is a lack of
sincerity and the excuse of being under the influence of "few beers"
doesn't show responsibility and ownership of what happened.
Removing one's fiduciary duties as a hat you put on and remove when it
pleases tells you don't care about the Community that has put TRUST in
you.

The best way to show that one is a man of INTEGRITY who cares about AfriNIC
is to step down. We await AfriNIC's board appropriate actions.

Thanks.

Regards.

Jean-Robert Hountomey.


2017-05-30 19:02 GMT-05:00 Boubakar Barry <boubakarbarry at gmail.com>:

> Given past and recent events, if I were at AIS17, I would recommend Andrew
> face to face to take some "leave" from wanting to serve in governing bodies
> such as the AfriNIC Board.
>
> He has been involved for many years in too many discussions/actions that
> are more controversial than conciliation acts.
>
> I would recommend him to think about how he can serve our community
> differently and better, and not necessarily from his current position.
>
> At least for now.
>
> Boubakar
>
>
> On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 8:42 PM, Badru Ntege <badru.ntege at nftconsult.com>
> wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/30/17, 7:04 PM, "Benjamin Eshun" <benjamin.eshun at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Owen
>>
>> Your genuine comments are duly noted bellow.  But the world over people
>> with the best intentions to service all mess up somewhere and are
>> accountable.  We have seen people resign from top positions in the US for
>> failing to submit information.
>>
>> What makes it so different for Africa.  250 people are here at AIS
>> because they have a passion for the community.  No one has a monopoly on
>> passion.
>>
>> In my book the community has been very clear that this behavior is
>> unacceptable, and the routine apology won?t work since we know it will
>> happen again.
>>
>> I was actually thinking that what powers do Nomcom have in this
>> situation, since they seem to have put a candidate on the slate who has
>> proven that he might not be fit to be a board member.
>>
>> We need to start somewhere and I think this is a perfect place to start.
>>
>> Andrew needs to do the civil thing accept his weakness and take a break
>> from the board and reflect on how he can control his behavior to serve the
>> community better in future.
>>
>> Benjamin
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss
>> mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mail
>> man/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
>
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From dmurungi at techsupport.co.tz  Wed May 31 10:32:59 2017
From: dmurungi at techsupport.co.tz (Mwanguhya Daniel Murungi)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 13:32:59 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] [AFRINIC-Announce] AFRINIC Annual Financial
 Statements 2016
In-Reply-To: <0FA62A91-93BF-4CA5-8F26-94023584D9A0@nftconsult.com>
References: <CAEqgTWbCMOVK7VYcRoi4JAT4fwePBo=yGBXdTYS5eM4XN_dqtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <f3016b1e-1f8b-789f-6f87-ad480a1e34d7@skannet.com>
 <CAEqgTWZRANOY2zmxnpo-W6o5r0i7XKgGfhfcO9Fm2NQh773PRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <07f189ee-a2ec-3605-d29c-495a68b9448c@skannet.com>
 <CAGDMR_cmUW40Etpef3QXUnNp49zpTey7cFLVgaAxxhcQmhhS5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <0FA62A91-93BF-4CA5-8F26-94023584D9A0@nftconsult.com>
Message-ID: <c19cbf0537faa6486ba9d58461b71480@techsupport.co.tz>

 

Dear Chair,

Hope all is well with you and the rest of the team. I skimmed through
the 2016 financial statement and I see that from the revenue collected,
there is no clear indication regarding the penalties AFRINIC charges
members. 

Can the total amount of penalty fees for the financial year 2016 be
published as well? 

Regards, 

Daniel 

On 2017-05-26 08:39, Badru Ntege wrote:
>> 2017-05-25 8:13 GMT+00:00 Sunday Folayan <sfolayan at skannet.com>:
>>
>>> Mzee Noah,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your wishes.
>>>
>>> Do not confuse the rights to see, discuss and query.
>>>
>>> Because we are transparent and a public institution, the public
>>> has the right to see, the public has the right to discuss.
> 
> I'm I reading this wrong or does it say the public does not have the
> right to query ??
> 
>>> Members however have the right to query any details in the
>>> Financials.
> 
> Interesting boundaries being set here. 
> 
> I really like the concept of Bottom up processes and governance but
> maybe needs to be updated 
> 
>>>
> 
> BN.
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss

 
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From mukom.tamon at gmail.com  Wed May 31 14:27:01 2017
From: mukom.tamon at gmail.com (Mukom Akong T.)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 17:27:01 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Our Cameroon case as one case study in
 solving an Internet shutdown in a country.
Message-ID: <CAHDzDLDBn9zNuO5SDL-kAnb5mzwFJ36MC6tnMB9e-cDRcjux0w@mail.gmail.com>

The global outroar about your position on Internet Shutdowns started by and
email you made in a public forum [1], signed as president of ISOC Cameroon.
That email was deleted and currently isn't accessible. But here is the
content of the mail as You wrote, - in your capacity as ISOC Cameroon
president.

[quote]

Hi to all,

It seems to me that the problem of access to Internet in Cameroon is very
much amplified here on the Net. There are 10 regions in Cameroon, the
problem of access to the Internet is only concerning 2 Regions. These 2
regions actually has some political or social crisis. The government and
other stakeholders in these 2 areas are looking for suitable solutions.
Meanwhile, the government has seen fit to cut these two regions off
Internet access and Western Union money transfer services, for the sake of
the entire population of these 2 regions.

Internet works well everywhere else in the other 8 regions. Im sending this
mail from Yaounde in Cameroon. So the situation is not a disaster as some
seem to publish on the Net. The ISOC Chapter can only encourage the
government and the other stakeholders to seek lasting peace solutions, even
if it involves a temporary suspension of Internet and Western Union
services. ISOC Cameroon Chapter President

[/quote]


Here are the reasons I find this entire episode rather disturbing

a) You've served previously as  board member of AFRINIC. You currently
serve for the last 4 or so years as president of ISOC Cameroon. That
statement tell us you do not believe in the principles of these
institutions and this community.


b) You made that statement as ISOC president of a branch that has members
that were affected by the shutdown. That it shows a callous lack of empathy
that's unbecoming of a leader.


c) You omitted that fact of your original mail, that indicates a lack of
integrity. You also neglect to state that those messages you made came long
after the global uproar of the statement you failed to disclose.

The campaign for the restoration of the Internet in Cameroon is very
public, the actors known,  trying to spin this into something you were a
key part of is dishonorable and an attempt to score cheap political points
for a campaign.


Whatever the outcome of this election,

* you haven't told us the whole truth

* you haven't demonstrated the that you believe in the values of this
community

* you have failed to act with honour

You are thus unfit to lead this community again and if by some political
mishap you become a board member, you will be starting on a deep trust
deficity.



[1] http://lists.igcaucus.org/arc/governance/2017-01/msg00069.html



On 30 May 2017 at 17:14, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com> wrote:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
> Date: 2017-05-30 16:29 GMT+03:00
> Subject: Our Cameroon case as one case study in solving an Internet
> shutdown in a country.
> To: ais17-announce at internetsummitafrica.org, General Discussions of
> AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
>
>
> Our  Cameroon case as one case study in solving an Internet shutdown in a
> country.
> The facts:
> - in november 2016 the government  of Cameroon shut down Internet in two
> regions in Cameroon
> - in december I convened the  ISOC Chapter Officers meeting  to noting and
> deploring that government action,
> - in january 2017, I convened the Chapter board meeting to reacting
> against that action of the government, that board meeting ended up with 2
> main actions: - a) one statement in line with the ISOC vision,  -b) and a
> letter to the government through the Minister of telecommunications. You
> can read that statement below, which had been sent to  various  mailing
> lists. The 2 pages letter sent to the government mentionned the impact of
> that shutting down on the national economy, with the advices,
> recommandations and training tracks, to solve the issue for the sake of
> every stakeolder. (I can share that letter  to the government with you
> inbox)
> - As the Chapter is part of the steering committee of the Internet
> exchange point of Cameroon (CAMIX), I also raised the issue with the ISP
> during one of the CAMIX monthly meeting, where the members strongly
> supported that Chapter statement on the matter.
> - At the same time, other national civil organizations and abroad also
> raised up the statement against that suspension of the Internet.
> - With all these actions, the governement removed the suspension of
> Internet  in April and today the Internet is working every where around the
> country.
>  A lesson learn here is that, as an ISOC Chapter, we did not only  make a
> statement against the suspension, but we also met the goverment and  the
> ISP with advices and practical recommandations. In the meantime, we did not
> make any insult word to them because of  their action. Our approch was more
> collaborative with all the stakeolders.
>
> Unfortunately some misinformation and misunderstanding have been
> circulated saying that I supported the suspension of the Internet. Please,
> do not trust  thoses wrong informations on me.  My committement so far is
>  to work and will  continue to work for the open access of Internet for
> everyone and erverywhere as well  at the national and regional  level as
>  at global level.
> Hopefuly  that this mail clarified everything now .
>
> I remain at your disposal to give more details you may need.
> Warm regards
>
> Dr. Janvier Ngnoulaye
> Senior Lecturer of Computer Science and Educational technology
> University of Yaounde I, Cameroon
> Executive Committee member of the Internet Exchange Point of Cameroon
> President of ISOC Cameroon Chapter
> Tel: +237 677 72 03 34 <6%2077%2072%2003%2034>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
> Date: 2017-02-03 13:56 GMT+03:00
> Subject: Statement and clarifications of ISOC Cameroon on the Internet
> shutdowns in Cameroon
> To: Internet Governance <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, willi uebelherr <
> willi.uebelherr at riseup.net>
> Cc: ISOC Internet Policy <internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org>
>
>
> ?Dear Internet member Community,
> Many misundertanding have been circulated throught lot of mailing lists
> about the Internet shutdowns in Cameroon.
> Please note that.
> 1) ISOC Cameroon Chapter with all the members do not support any form of
> Internet shutdowns.
> 2) After the Annual General Assembly hold on 28 january 2017, the members
> of the Chapter condemned that action in Cameroon and took the resolution to
> engage in conversations with the government. We will keep you updated on
> the development undertaken.
> 3) ISOC Cameroon Chapter is in line with the statement that Internet
> Society published as a reference for such matters (
> https://www.internetsociety.org/lets-keep-internet-everyone)
> Thank you for any support and advice to us on the ground.
>
> ------------------------------
> Janvier Ngnoulaye, Ph.D
> ICT Teacher at the University
> President of the ISOC Cameroon Chapter.
> Activist of "The Internet is for everyone"
> http://www.internetsociety.cm/
> ------------------------------?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RPD mailing list
> RPD at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>
>


-- 

Mukom Akong T.

LinkedIn:Mukom <https://www.linkedin.com/in/mukom>  |  twitter:
@perfexcellent


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
?When you work, you are the FLUTE through whose lungs the whispering of the
hours turns to MUSIC" - Kahlil Gibran
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From jacksonmuthi at gmail.com  Wed May 31 14:42:28 2017
From: jacksonmuthi at gmail.com (Jackson Muthili)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 17:42:28 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Our Cameroon case as one case study in
 solving an Internet shutdown in a country.
In-Reply-To: <CAHDzDLDBn9zNuO5SDL-kAnb5mzwFJ36MC6tnMB9e-cDRcjux0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHDzDLDBn9zNuO5SDL-kAnb5mzwFJ36MC6tnMB9e-cDRcjux0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+DdLrRkHbwgi+sW+j_fHKxbkf4OP0GCU=4p3vdRAotre82Pkg@mail.gmail.com>

How does the nomcom let such absurdly unqualified candidates make it
to the list of board nominees for AfriNIC?

Does nomcom not have power or discretion to recall nominations of
unfit candidates who have demonstrated immaturity and lack of decorum
for such a position - Andrew Alston and Janvier Ngoulaye?

It would be a sad day for AfriNIC if they become members of the Board.

-J

On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Mukom Akong T. <mukom.tamon at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The global outroar about your position on Internet Shutdowns started by and
> email you made in a public forum [1], signed as president of ISOC Cameroon.
> That email was deleted and currently isn't accessible. But here is the
> content of the mail as You wrote, - in your capacity as ISOC Cameroon
> president.
>
> [quote]
>
> Hi to all,
>
> It seems to me that the problem of access to Internet in Cameroon is very
> much amplified here on the Net. There are 10 regions in Cameroon, the
> problem of access to the Internet is only concerning 2 Regions. These 2
> regions actually has some political or social crisis. The government and
> other stakeholders in these 2 areas are looking for suitable solutions.
> Meanwhile, the government has seen fit to cut these two regions off Internet
> access and Western Union money transfer services, for the sake of the entire
> population of these 2 regions.
>
> Internet works well everywhere else in the other 8 regions. Im sending this
> mail from Yaounde in Cameroon. So the situation is not a disaster as some
> seem to publish on the Net. The ISOC Chapter can only encourage the
> government and the other stakeholders to seek lasting peace solutions, even
> if it involves a temporary suspension of Internet and Western Union
> services. ISOC Cameroon Chapter President
>
> [/quote]
>
>
> Here are the reasons I find this entire episode rather disturbing
>
> a) You've served previously as  board member of AFRINIC. You currently serve
> for the last 4 or so years as president of ISOC Cameroon. That statement
> tell us you do not believe in the principles of these institutions and this
> community.
>
>
> b) You made that statement as ISOC president of a branch that has members
> that were affected by the shutdown. That it shows a callous lack of empathy
> that's unbecoming of a leader.
>
>
> c) You omitted that fact of your original mail, that indicates a lack of
> integrity. You also neglect to state that those messages you made came long
> after the global uproar of the statement you failed to disclose.
>
> The campaign for the restoration of the Internet in Cameroon is very public,
> the actors known,  trying to spin this into something you were a key part of
> is dishonorable and an attempt to score cheap political points for a
> campaign.
>
>
> Whatever the outcome of this election,
>
> * you haven't told us the whole truth
>
> * you haven't demonstrated the that you believe in the values of this
> community
>
> * you have failed to act with honour
>
> You are thus unfit to lead this community again and if by some political
> mishap you become a board member, you will be starting on a deep trust
> deficity.
>
>
>
> [1] http://lists.igcaucus.org/arc/governance/2017-01/msg00069.html
>
>
>
>
> On 30 May 2017 at 17:14, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
>> Date: 2017-05-30 16:29 GMT+03:00
>> Subject: Our Cameroon case as one case study in solving an Internet
>> shutdown in a country.
>> To: ais17-announce at internetsummitafrica.org, General Discussions of
>> AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
>>
>>
>> Our  Cameroon case as one case study in solving an Internet shutdown in a
>> country.
>> The facts:
>> - in november 2016 the government  of Cameroon shut down Internet in two
>> regions in Cameroon
>> - in december I convened the  ISOC Chapter Officers meeting  to noting and
>> deploring that government action,
>> - in january 2017, I convened the Chapter board meeting to reacting
>> against that action of the government, that board meeting ended up with 2
>> main actions: - a) one statement in line with the ISOC vision,  -b) and a
>> letter to the government through the Minister of telecommunications. You can
>> read that statement below, which had been sent to  various  mailing lists.
>> The 2 pages letter sent to the government mentionned the impact of that
>> shutting down on the national economy, with the advices, recommandations and
>> training tracks, to solve the issue for the sake of every stakeolder. (I can
>> share that letter  to the government with you inbox)
>> - As the Chapter is part of the steering committee of the Internet
>> exchange point of Cameroon (CAMIX), I also raised the issue with the ISP
>> during one of the CAMIX monthly meeting, where the members strongly
>> supported that Chapter statement on the matter.
>> - At the same time, other national civil organizations and abroad also
>> raised up the statement against that suspension of the Internet.
>> - With all these actions, the governement removed the suspension of
>> Internet  in April and today the Internet is working every where around the
>> country.
>>  A lesson learn here is that, as an ISOC Chapter, we did not only  make a
>> statement against the suspension, but we also met the goverment and  the ISP
>> with advices and practical recommandations. In the meantime, we did not make
>> any insult word to them because of  their action. Our approch was more
>> collaborative with all the stakeolders.
>>
>> Unfortunately some misinformation and misunderstanding have been
>> circulated saying that I supported the suspension of the Internet. Please,
>> do not trust  thoses wrong informations on me.  My committement so far is
>> to work and will  continue to work for the open access of Internet for
>> everyone and erverywhere as well  at the national and regional  level as  at
>> global level.
>> Hopefuly  that this mail clarified everything now .
>>
>> I remain at your disposal to give more details you may need.
>> Warm regards
>>
>> Dr. Janvier Ngnoulaye
>> Senior Lecturer of Computer Science and Educational technology
>> University of Yaounde I, Cameroon
>> Executive Committee member of the Internet Exchange Point of Cameroon
>> President of ISOC Cameroon Chapter
>> Tel: +237 677 72 03 34
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
>> Date: 2017-02-03 13:56 GMT+03:00
>> Subject: Statement and clarifications of ISOC Cameroon on the Internet
>> shutdowns in Cameroon
>> To: Internet Governance <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, willi uebelherr
>> <willi.uebelherr at riseup.net>
>> Cc: ISOC Internet Policy <internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org>
>>
>>
>> Dear Internet member Community,
>> Many misundertanding have been circulated throught lot of mailing lists
>> about the Internet shutdowns in Cameroon.
>> Please note that.
>> 1) ISOC Cameroon Chapter with all the members do not support any form of
>> Internet shutdowns.
>> 2) After the Annual General Assembly hold on 28 january 2017, the members
>> of the Chapter condemned that action in Cameroon and took the resolution to
>> engage in conversations with the government. We will keep you updated on the
>> development undertaken.
>> 3) ISOC Cameroon Chapter is in line with the statement that Internet
>> Society published as a reference for such matters
>> (https://www.internetsociety.org/lets-keep-internet-everyone)
>> Thank you for any support and advice to us on the ground.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Janvier Ngnoulaye, Ph.D
>> ICT Teacher at the University
>> President of the ISOC Cameroon Chapter.
>> Activist of "The Internet is for everyone"
>> http://www.internetsociety.cm/
>> ------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RPD mailing list
>> RPD at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mukom Akong T.
>
> LinkedIn:Mukom  |  twitter: @perfexcellent
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ?When you work, you are the FLUTE through whose lungs the whispering of the
> hours turns to MUSIC" - Kahlil Gibran
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>



From jnoulaye at gmail.com  Wed May 31 14:57:42 2017
From: jnoulaye at gmail.com (Janvier NGNOULAYE)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 17:57:42 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Our Cameroon case as one case study in
 solving an Internet shutdown in a country.
In-Reply-To: <CAHDzDLDBn9zNuO5SDL-kAnb5mzwFJ36MC6tnMB9e-cDRcjux0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHDzDLDBn9zNuO5SDL-kAnb5mzwFJ36MC6tnMB9e-cDRcjux0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMitOThmgLviewkvAra2j_UFUy6QkFJYdE-Sd71ek2M7r7=D8w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Mukom,
My mail you quoted was to descrive the facts on the field at that time. And
clarifications have been given with the statement we made  on the issue to
those mailings lists.
See attached for example the letter to the Minister.
 It is up to you to appreciate our actions on the field in the direction
you want.
The truth is that the Chapter is become a valuable multi-stakeolders among
the ISP and other local Internet organizations in the country. CAMIX for
instance is today one of the great result of the Chapter and so on, and so
far.
Hope this brings more clarifications to you.
Warm regards,
Janvier Ngnoulaye

2017-05-31 17:27 GMT+03:00 Mukom Akong T. <mukom.tamon at gmail.com>:

>
> The global outroar about your position on Internet Shutdowns started by
> and email you made in a public forum [1], signed as president of ISOC
> Cameroon. That email was deleted and currently isn't accessible. But here
> is the content of the mail as You wrote, - in your capacity as ISOC
> Cameroon president.
>
> [quote]
>
> Hi to all,
>
> It seems to me that the problem of access to Internet in Cameroon is very
> much amplified here on the Net. There are 10 regions in Cameroon, the
> problem of access to the Internet is only concerning 2 Regions. These 2
> regions actually has some political or social crisis. The government and
> other stakeholders in these 2 areas are looking for suitable solutions.
> Meanwhile, the government has seen fit to cut these two regions off
> Internet access and Western Union money transfer services, for the sake of
> the entire population of these 2 regions.
>
> Internet works well everywhere else in the other 8 regions. Im sending
> this mail from Yaounde in Cameroon. So the situation is not a disaster as
> some seem to publish on the Net. The ISOC Chapter can only encourage the
> government and the other stakeholders to seek lasting peace solutions, even
> if it involves a temporary suspension of Internet and Western Union
> services. ISOC Cameroon Chapter President
>
> [/quote]
>
>
> Here are the reasons I find this entire episode rather disturbing
>
> a) You've served previously as  board member of AFRINIC. You currently
> serve for the last 4 or so years as president of ISOC Cameroon. That
> statement tell us you do not believe in the principles of these
> institutions and this community.
>
>
> b) You made that statement as ISOC president of a branch that has members
> that were affected by the shutdown. That it shows a callous lack of empathy
> that's unbecoming of a leader.
>
>
> c) You omitted that fact of your original mail, that indicates a lack of
> integrity. You also neglect to state that those messages you made came long
> after the global uproar of the statement you failed to disclose.
>
> The campaign for the restoration of the Internet in Cameroon is very
> public, the actors known,  trying to spin this into something you were a
> key part of is dishonorable and an attempt to score cheap political points
> for a campaign.
>
>
> Whatever the outcome of this election,
>
> * you haven't told us the whole truth
>
> * you haven't demonstrated the that you believe in the values of this
> community
>
> * you have failed to act with honour
>
> You are thus unfit to lead this community again and if by some political
> mishap you become a board member, you will be starting on a deep trust
> deficity.
>
>
>
> [1] http://lists.igcaucus.org/arc/governance/2017-01/msg00069.html
>
>
>
> On 30 May 2017 at 17:14, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
>> Date: 2017-05-30 16:29 GMT+03:00
>> Subject: Our Cameroon case as one case study in solving an Internet
>> shutdown in a country.
>> To: ais17-announce at internetsummitafrica.org, General Discussions of
>> AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
>>
>>
>> Our  Cameroon case as one case study in solving an Internet shutdown in a
>> country.
>> The facts:
>> - in november 2016 the government  of Cameroon shut down Internet in two
>> regions in Cameroon
>> - in december I convened the  ISOC Chapter Officers meeting  to noting
>> and deploring that government action,
>> - in january 2017, I convened the Chapter board meeting to reacting
>> against that action of the government, that board meeting ended up with 2
>> main actions: - a) one statement in line with the ISOC vision,  -b) and a
>> letter to the government through the Minister of telecommunications. You
>> can read that statement below, which had been sent to  various  mailing
>> lists. The 2 pages letter sent to the government mentionned the impact of
>> that shutting down on the national economy, with the advices,
>> recommandations and training tracks, to solve the issue for the sake of
>> every stakeolder. (I can share that letter  to the government with you
>> inbox)
>> - As the Chapter is part of the steering committee of the Internet
>> exchange point of Cameroon (CAMIX), I also raised the issue with the ISP
>> during one of the CAMIX monthly meeting, where the members strongly
>> supported that Chapter statement on the matter.
>> - At the same time, other national civil organizations and abroad also
>> raised up the statement against that suspension of the Internet.
>> - With all these actions, the governement removed the suspension of
>> Internet  in April and today the Internet is working every where around the
>> country.
>>  A lesson learn here is that, as an ISOC Chapter, we did not only  make a
>> statement against the suspension, but we also met the goverment and  the
>> ISP with advices and practical recommandations. In the meantime, we did not
>> make any insult word to them because of  their action. Our approch was more
>> collaborative with all the stakeolders.
>>
>> Unfortunately some misinformation and misunderstanding have been
>> circulated saying that I supported the suspension of the Internet. Please,
>> do not trust  thoses wrong informations on me.  My committement so far is
>>  to work and will  continue to work for the open access of Internet for
>> everyone and erverywhere as well  at the national and regional  level as
>>  at global level.
>> Hopefuly  that this mail clarified everything now .
>>
>> I remain at your disposal to give more details you may need.
>> Warm regards
>>
>> Dr. Janvier Ngnoulaye
>> Senior Lecturer of Computer Science and Educational technology
>> University of Yaounde I, Cameroon
>> Executive Committee member of the Internet Exchange Point of Cameroon
>> President of ISOC Cameroon Chapter
>> Tel: +237 677 72 03 34 <6%2077%2072%2003%2034>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com>
>> Date: 2017-02-03 13:56 GMT+03:00
>> Subject: Statement and clarifications of ISOC Cameroon on the Internet
>> shutdowns in Cameroon
>> To: Internet Governance <governance at lists.igcaucus.org>, willi uebelherr
>> <willi.uebelherr at riseup.net>
>> Cc: ISOC Internet Policy <internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org>
>>
>>
>> ?Dear Internet member Community,
>> Many misundertanding have been circulated throught lot of mailing lists
>> about the Internet shutdowns in Cameroon.
>> Please note that.
>> 1) ISOC Cameroon Chapter with all the members do not support any form of
>> Internet shutdowns.
>> 2) After the Annual General Assembly hold on 28 january 2017, the members
>> of the Chapter condemned that action in Cameroon and took the resolution to
>> engage in conversations with the government. We will keep you updated on
>> the development undertaken.
>> 3) ISOC Cameroon Chapter is in line with the statement that Internet
>> Society published as a reference for such matters (
>> https://www.internetsociety.org/lets-keep-internet-everyone)
>> Thank you for any support and advice to us on the ground.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Janvier Ngnoulaye, Ph.D
>> ICT Teacher at the University
>> President of the ISOC Cameroon Chapter.
>> Activist of "The Internet is for everyone"
>> http://www.internetsociety.cm/
>> ------------------------------?
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RPD mailing list
>> RPD at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Mukom Akong T.
>
> LinkedIn:Mukom <https://www.linkedin.com/in/mukom>  |  twitter:
> @perfexcellent
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> ?When you work, you are the FLUTE through whose lungs the whispering of
> the hours turns to MUSIC" - Kahlil Gibran
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------
>
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From mukom.tamon at gmail.com  Wed May 31 15:46:27 2017
From: mukom.tamon at gmail.com (Mukom Akong T.)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 18:46:27 +0300
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Our Cameroon case as one case study in
 solving an Internet shutdown in a country.
In-Reply-To: <CAMitOThmgLviewkvAra2j_UFUy6QkFJYdE-Sd71ek2M7r7=D8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHDzDLDBn9zNuO5SDL-kAnb5mzwFJ36MC6tnMB9e-cDRcjux0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMitOThmgLviewkvAra2j_UFUy6QkFJYdE-Sd71ek2M7r7=D8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHDzDLDC-n+9LFhrnbnZiYYr8G+_kGqehEWiOHKh+9bZa8qX9w@mail.gmail.com>

On 31 May 2017 at 17:57, Janvier NGNOULAYE <jnoulaye at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> My mail you quoted was to descrive the facts on the field at that time.
> And clarifications have been given with the statement we made  on the issue
> to those mailings lists.
>


You insult our intelligence by calling the following statement a fact.

"The government and other stakeholders in these 2 areas are looking for
suitable solutions. Meanwhile, the government has seen fit to cut these two
regions off Internet access and Western Union money transfer services, for
the sake of the entire population of these 2 regions."


It is not a fact by any definition of the word. And it's not something
expected from a former board member and active ISOC chapter president. The
discussions on the mailing lists of the chapter further support that
position and you did nothing to address it and make clear the position you
now pretend to espouse.



When a credible leader makes a mistake or believes he's being misconstrued,
he starts by starting that issue, then goes on to address that. You didn't
do that. That's what calls this whole charade of yours into question and
makes you unfit to lead this community.


If I have to explain to you that that email that you sent, the subsequent
act of deleting it from public and by not disclosing it with your email is
the crucial leadership and integrity issue at stake is a gross failure of
leadership judgement, it simply tells me you don't understand the basis of
trust.




> See attached for example the letter to the Minister.
>


You conveniently forget to state where this letter fits in the timeline of
events .... long after the ill-conceived email that you are want to sweep
under the carpet.



>  It is up to you to appreciate our actions on the field in the direction
> you want.
>


Yes, and the combination still points to

-  a lack leadership in this community
-  a lack integrity
-  failure to understand what advocacy means

These are characteristics unbecoming of a leader.



> The truth is that the Chapter is become a valuable multi-stakeolders among
> the ISP and other local Internet organizations in the country.
>


We do live in a world of alternative facts. There's some reality in which
that's true.




> CAMIX for instance is today one of the great result of the Chapter and so
> on, and so far.
>





-- 

Mukom Akong T.

LinkedIn:Mukom <https://www.linkedin.com/in/mukom>  |  twitter:
@perfexcellent


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
?When you work, you are the FLUTE through whose lungs the whispering of the
hours turns to MUSIC" - Kahlil Gibran
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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From abscoco at gmail.com  Wed May 31 17:47:16 2017
From: abscoco at gmail.com (Sylvain BAYA)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 18:47:16 +0100
Subject: [Community-Discuss] Our Cameroon case as one case study in solving
 an Internet shutdown in a country.
In-Reply-To: <CAHDzDLDBn9zNuO5SDL-kAnb5mzwFJ36MC6tnMB9e-cDRcjux0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHDzDLDBn9zNuO5SDL-kAnb5mzwFJ36MC6tnMB9e-cDRcjux0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d980395a-b4de-ec3d-63f4-d340fea8d971@gmail.com>

Hi all,


Le 5/31/2017 ? 3:27 PM, Mukom Akong T. a ?crit :
>
> [...]
>
> [1] http://lists.igcaucus.org/arc/governance/2017-01/msg00069.html
>
Instead of the URI above, please considere this one :
http://lists.igcaucus.org/sympa/arc/governance/2017-01/msg00069.html
If I recall well, there was an issue with IGC's web hosting; then they
decided to migrate their content to an other place. What I see is that
the structure of their previous URIs binding the list archives has
change after the migration.

To better understand the context of that thread, you also have the
following links :

------------------------------------------------------------------------

  * *Re: [governance] [bestbits] Please Cameroon did not shut down the
    Internet !!!*, /Janvier NGNOULAYE, 01/26/2017/
      o *Re: [governance] [bestbits] Please Cameroon did not shut down
        the Internet !!!
        <http://lists.igcaucus.org/sympa/arc/governance/2017-01/msg00070.html>*,
        /Remmy Nweke, 01/26/2017/
      o *Re: [governance] [bestbits] Please Cameroon did not shut down
        the Internet !!!
        <http://lists.igcaucus.org/sympa/arc/governance/2017-01/msg00071.html>*,
        /Nonhlanhla Chanza, 01/27/2017/
          + *Re: [governance] [bestbits] Please Cameroon did not shut
            down the Internet !!!
            <http://lists.igcaucus.org/sympa/arc/governance/2017-01/msg00072.html>*,
            /Joash Moitui, 01/27/2017/
              # *Re: [governance] [bestbits] Please Cameroon did not
                shut down the Internet !!!
                <http://lists.igcaucus.org/sympa/arc/governance/2017-01/msg00075.html>*,
                /Iyedi Goma, 01/27/2017/
              # *Re: [governance] [bestbits] Please Cameroon did not
                shut down the Internet !!!
                <http://lists.igcaucus.org/sympa/arc/governance/2017-01/msg00074.html>*,
                /Chenai Chair, 01/27/2017/
              # *RE: [governance] [bestbits] Please Cameroon did not
                shut down the Internet !!!
                <http://lists.igcaucus.org/sympa/arc/governance/2017-01/msg00078.html>*,
                /Mueller, Milton L, 01/27/2017/
              # *Re: [governance] [bestbits] Please Cameroon did not
                shut down the Internet !!!
                <http://lists.igcaucus.org/sympa/arc/governance/2017-01/msg00087.html>*,
                /Evelyn Namara, 01/28/2017/
                  * *Re: [governance] [bestbits] Please Cameroon did not
                    shut down the Internet !!!
                    <http://lists.igcaucus.org/sympa/arc/governance/2017-01/msg00092.html>*,
                    /Nyangkwe Agien Aaron, 01/28/2017/
                      o *Re: [governance] [bestbits] Please Cameroon did
                        not shut down the Internet !!!
                        <http://lists.igcaucus.org/sympa/arc/governance/2017-01/msg00094.html>*,
                        /Mwendwa Kivuva, 01/28/2017/
                          + *Re: [governance] [bestbits] Please Cameroon
                            did not shut down the Internet !!!
                            <http://lists.igcaucus.org/sympa/arc/governance/2017-01/msg00098.html>*,
                            /Mawaki Chango, 01/29/2017/

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hope this could help.


Regards,
--sb.
__

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