From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Tue Jul 11 14:39:28 2017 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:39:28 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... Message-ID: Hi All, I decided to post this, because I am getting more and more confused by this community every day. 1. This community cried for transparency - in response - they got the board minutes. As I have pointed out in previous emails - those minutes do not contain all the information - and in fact, under the Mauritian code of corporate governance, the minutes of committee meetings should also be published to create full transparency which is not happening. I have raised this on the list - the community has remained silent - this makes me question if it was really transparency this community was looking for - or was it ammunition for perceived wrongs in the past? 2. This community is confronted with legal opinion - that clearly and demonstrably shows that policy proposals put the organisation at risk - yet members of this community continue to insist we ignore those concerns and proceed anyway - in what would be a direct violation of the directors fiduciary duties were they to pass it, yet the same community insisted on the creation of a governance committee to ensure that AfriNIC was acting within the bounds of solid corporate governance - this is a contradiction in terms 3. In the Mauritian meeting - the community was faced with 20 special resolutions - they chose to vote against the vast majority of those - despite having it clearly explained that those resolutions were largely tabled after a review about areas that need to be fixed. * To illustrate this point - one of those resolutions would have bound a sitting director to returning his company membership when his directorship expired - and while this was standard practice, the voting down of this special resolution has now created a serious problem - should a director leaving the board refuse to return his company membership - there is now a vote - from this community - affirming the fact that he has no obligation to do so. In effective - voting that down legitimized a director holding onto his registered membership status into perpetuity. I might point out that the rights and powers of a registered member also *FAR* outstrip the actual legal rights of any normal member. 4. For years I sat and watched this community attack the board over the financials - yet - now - when questions are asked specifically for detailed information that is highly relevant to the organisations financials - the same people who attacked for so long - sit silent and have not a word to say - again - is this because they weren't actually after financial transparency and were simply looking for ammunition? Or is there another reason for it? Basically - what I see is various members of this community that want to make selective demands on the company and the board - when it suits them - when they need ammunition for whatever agenda they are pursuing - but once that agenda fades - they go completely silent. What I am saying is - if we want a fully functional RIR and a board that is subject to this community who elects them - the only way we can do that is to be consistent with our message and communicate clearly and without ambiguity - rather than simply sending our messages when it suits us. Really - I am deeply confused by what I am seeing from members of this community - and I'd really like to better understand it. Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From madomey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 11 16:32:27 2017 From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 16:32:27 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Andrew, If you are confused with the stand of the community, it means that you are out of the community orbit. This community seems to know what matters and folks they can follow Thanks Marcus Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: Andrew Alston Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 2:39:28 PM To: General Discussions of AFRINIC Subject: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... Hi All, I decided to post this, because I am getting more and more confused by this community every day. 1. This community cried for transparency ? in response ? they got the board minutes. As I have pointed out in previous emails ? those minutes do not contain all the information ? and in fact, under the Mauritian code of corporate governance, the minutes of committee meetings should also be published to create full transparency which is not happening. I have raised this on the list ? the community has remained silent ? this makes me question if it was really transparency this community was looking for ? or was it ammunition for perceived wrongs in the past? 2. This community is confronted with legal opinion ? that clearly and demonstrably shows that policy proposals put the organisation at risk ? yet members of this community continue to insist we ignore those concerns and proceed anyway ? in what would be a direct violation of the directors fiduciary duties were they to pass it, yet the same community insisted on the creation of a governance committee to ensure that AfriNIC was acting within the bounds of solid corporate governance ? this is a contradiction in terms 3. In the Mauritian meeting ? the community was faced with 20 special resolutions ? they chose to vote against the vast majority of those ? despite having it clearly explained that those resolutions were largely tabled after a review about areas that need to be fixed. * To illustrate this point ? one of those resolutions would have bound a sitting director to returning his company membership when his directorship expired ? and while this was standard practice, the voting down of this special resolution has now created a serious problem ? should a director leaving the board refuse to return his company membership ? there is now a vote ? from this community ? affirming the fact that he has no obligation to do so. In effective ? voting that down legitimized a director holding onto his registered membership status into perpetuity. I might point out that the rights and powers of a registered member also *FAR* outstrip the actual legal rights of any normal member. 4. For years I sat and watched this community attack the board over the financials ? yet ? now ? when questions are asked specifically for detailed information that is highly relevant to the organisations financials ? the same people who attacked for so long ? sit silent and have not a word to say ? again ? is this because they weren?t actually after financial transparency and were simply looking for ammunition? Or is there another reason for it? Basically ? what I see is various members of this community that want to make selective demands on the company and the board ? when it suits them ? when they need ammunition for whatever agenda they are pursuing ? but once that agenda fades ? they go completely silent. What I am saying is ? if we want a fully functional RIR and a board that is subject to this community who elects them - the only way we can do that is to be consistent with our message and communicate clearly and without ambiguity ? rather than simply sending our messages when it suits us. Really ? I am deeply confused by what I am seeing from members of this community ? and I?d really like to better understand it. Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From badru.ntege at nftconsult.com Wed Jul 12 06:23:36 2017 From: badru.ntege at nftconsult.com (Badru Ntege) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 06:23:36 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So Andrew Some of my comments will be directed to you in this response since your submission was directed at the community Sent from my iPhone On 11 Jul 2017, at 17:41, Andrew Alston > wrote: Hi All, I decided to post this, because I am getting more and more confused by this community every day. 1. This community cried for transparency ? in response ? they got the board minutes. As I have pointed out in previous emails ? those minutes do not contain all the information ? and in fact, under the Mauritian code of corporate governance, the minutes of committee meetings should also be published to create full transparency which is not happening. I have raised this on the list ? the community has remained silent ? this makes me question if it was really transparency this community was looking for ? or was it ammunition for perceived wrongs in the past? even the community has its limits. When the people we elected to serve us suddenly become our masters we save our energies and wait to remove them through the ballot we hoped board would give us a fresh leadership out of the 9 members they have but we got the status quo again 1. 2. This community is confronted with legal opinion ? that clearly and demonstrably shows that policy proposals put the organisation at risk ? yet members of this community continue to insist we ignore those concerns and proceed anyway ? in what would be a direct violation of the directors fiduciary duties were they to pass it, yet the same community insisted on the creation of a governance committee to ensure that AfriNIC was acting within the bounds of solid corporate governance ? this is a contradiction in terms With all respect legal opinion can be subjective. It was the board actions that prompted the need for a governance committee. We might not want to re open those pages but I'm sure you understand 1. 2. In the Mauritian meeting ? the community was faced with 20 special resolutions ? they chose to vote against the vast majority of those ? despite having it clearly explained that those resolutions were largely tabled after a review about areas that need to be fixed. ???really 1. * To illustrate this point ? one of those resolutions would have bound a sitting director to returning his company membership when his directorship expired ? and while this was standard practice, the voting down of this special resolution has now created a serious problem ? should a director leaving the board refuse to return his company membership ? there is now a vote ? from this community ? affirming the fact that he has no obligation to do so. In effective ? voting that down legitimized a director holding onto his registered membership status into perpetuity. I might point out that the rights and powers of a registered member also *FAR* outstrip the actual legal rights of any normal member. More reason to compel the Mauritius authorities our hosts to create a special category for AfriNIC or find a jurisdiction that will we have over 50 options. By the way Andrew have you rescinded your membership??? 1. * 2. For years I sat and watched this community attack the board over the financials ? yet ? now ? when questions are asked specifically for detailed information that is highly relevant to the organisations financials ? the same people who attacked for so long ? sit silent and have not a word to say ? again ? is this because they weren?t actually after financial transparency and were simply looking for ammunition? Or is there another reason for it? Are we reading the same mailing list ??? Basically ? what I see is various members of this community that want to make selective demands on the company and the board ? when it suits them ? when they need ammunition for whatever agenda they are pursuing ? but once that agenda fades ? they go completely silent. What I am saying is ? if we want a fully functional RIR and a board that is subject to this community who elects them - the only way we can do that is to be consistent with our message and communicate clearly and without ambiguity ? rather than simply sending our messages when it suits us. Really ? I am deeply confused by what I am seeing from members of this community ? and I?d really like to better understand it. So Andrew your submission over the last few years is that you went to the board to deliver transparency and one of your relection claims were that you are the one that brought out the transparency. Are you telling us that the day you left the board did a complete U turn on all your good work ?? Andrew _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Wed Jul 12 06:39:12 2017 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 06:39:12 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Badru - I argue strongly that the transparency did get better - I am also saying - it is far from where it should be and that the efforts need to continue. And yes Badru - I voluntarily rescinded my membership within an hour and a half of the announcement of the result - standing outside the boardroom - in the area where the sponsors cocktail was being held - when the documents were brought to me by Guylaine - that is verifiable fact. As is the fact that I was fully aware that I had no obligation to do so and had communicated this to others. I would like to understand "we got the status quo up again" - who is this we you speak of - and what is this status quo to which you refer? Andrew Get Outlook for iOS _____________________________ From: Badru Ntege > Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 09:23 Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... To: Andrew Alston > Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC > So Andrew Some of my comments will be directed to you in this response since your submission was directed at the community Sent from my iPhone On 11 Jul 2017, at 17:41, Andrew Alston > wrote: Hi All, I decided to post this, because I am getting more and more confused by this community every day. 1. This community cried for transparency ? in response ? they got the board minutes. As I have pointed out in previous emails ? those minutes do not contain all the information ? and in fact, under the Mauritian code of corporate governance, the minutes of committee meetings should also be published to create full transparency which is not happening. I have raised this on the list ? the community has remained silent ? this makes me question if it was really transparency this community was looking for ? or was it ammunition for perceived wrongs in the past? even the community has its limits. When the people we elected to serve us suddenly become our masters we save our energies and wait to remove them through the ballot we hoped board would give us a fresh leadership out of the 9 members they have but we got the status quo again 1. 2. This community is confronted with legal opinion ? that clearly and demonstrably shows that policy proposals put the organisation at risk ? yet members of this community continue to insist we ignore those concerns and proceed anyway ? in what would be a direct violation of the directors fiduciary duties were they to pass it, yet the same community insisted on the creation of a governance committee to ensure that AfriNIC was acting within the bounds of solid corporate governance ? this is a contradiction in terms With all respect legal opinion can be subjective. It was the board actions that prompted the need for a governance committee. We might not want to re open those pages but I'm sure you understand 1. 2. In the Mauritian meeting ? the community was faced with 20 special resolutions ? they chose to vote against the vast majority of those ? despite having it clearly explained that those resolutions were largely tabled after a review about areas that need to be fixed. ???really 1. * To illustrate this point ? one of those resolutions would have bound a sitting director to returning his company membership when his directorship expired ? and while this was standard practice, the voting down of this special resolution has now created a serious problem ? should a director leaving the board refuse to return his company membership ? there is now a vote ? from this community ? affirming the fact that he has no obligation to do so. In effective ? voting that down legitimized a director holding onto his registered membership status into perpetuity. I might point out that the rights and powers of a registered member also *FAR* outstrip the actual legal rights of any normal member. More reason to compel the Mauritius authorities our hosts to create a special category for AfriNIC or find a jurisdiction that will we have over 50 options. By the way Andrew have you rescinded your membership??? 1. * 2. For years I sat and watched this community attack the board over the financials ? yet ? now ? when questions are asked specifically for detailed information that is highly relevant to the organisations financials ? the same people who attacked for so long ? sit silent and have not a word to say ? again ? is this because they weren?t actually after financial transparency and were simply looking for ammunition? Or is there another reason for it? Are we reading the same mailing list ??? Basically ? what I see is various members of this community that want to make selective demands on the company and the board ? when it suits them ? when they need ammunition for whatever agenda they are pursuing ? but once that agenda fades ? they go completely silent. What I am saying is ? if we want a fully functional RIR and a board that is subject to this community who elects them - the only way we can do that is to be consistent with our message and communicate clearly and without ambiguity ? rather than simply sending our messages when it suits us. Really ? I am deeply confused by what I am seeing from members of this community ? and I?d really like to better understand it. So Andrew your submission over the last few years is that you went to the board to deliver transparency and one of your relection claims were that you are the one that brought out the transparency. Are you telling us that the day you left the board did a complete U turn on all your good work ?? Andrew _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Wed Jul 12 06:40:44 2017 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 06:40:44 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... In-Reply-To: References: , <9C582B9D-653B-4ECE-B8EC-66D52D1B8A04@steffann.nl>, Message-ID: I realized after it was pointed out that this had not gone to the list - so re-sending Andrew Get Outlook for iOS _____________________________ From: Andrew Alston > Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 08:08 Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... To: Sander Steffann >, Marcus K. G. Adomey > Markus - You say that I am in a different orbit - so let me state what orbit I am in - I want total transparency - both on governance and financial issues I want to know how the money we as members is being spent and that it is well spent and justified - particularly considering that for large members the fees as in excess of 20 times the costs paid by RIPE members I want to be assured if our elected representatives are traveling on our dime - that the travel is justified and in the benefits of the members the organization is meant to serve I want to be assured that the board and the executive are at all times adhearing to the bylaws which we, as members, approved I want to be assured that the company operates to the letter of the law and to be assured that the actions they take do not create legal risk which may threaten the organization I want to ensure that the policies of the organization actually contribute to the growth of internet penetration on the continent, and do not merely serve to protect isps, but actually serve the general population of our continent. I want to ensure that the company is delivering on its mandate as clearly defined in section 3 of the bylaws. That my friend - is my orbit - so - if we are in different orbits - please - tell me yours and how it conflicts with the above - explain it to me - after all - do we not operate on a principal that dialog solves problems and builds consensus? Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Thu Jul 13 05:08:36 2017 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 22:08:36 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency In-Reply-To: References: <16074c5c-c827-c84a-60c0-0e3bcdff30b4@posix.co.za> Message-ID: <83171576-2F72-4762-A864-A352BB516A84@delong.com> I think a more accurate description of the events is that certain portions of the community with no sense of decorum or fairness spoke very loudly and refused to give up the floor even after being declared out of order repeatedly by the chair of the meeting. However, I am certain you are unlikely to share my perspective as you are almost certainly allied with this group of ill-behaved malcontents. Owen > On Jun 5, 2017, at 19:13 , Badru Ntege wrote: > > Ali > > Thanks for highlighting the issues bellow. Some board members have claimed championing transparency but I think we all need to have the same definition of the word. > > The issue of publishing the minutes was a community mandate to the board not a board initiative. I also like the issue on declaring interest. > > However the community is not blind and eventually the truth comes out as we saw in Nairobi where the community spoke resoundingly in both ASO and board elections. > > Regards > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 5 Jun 2017, at 12:39, Ali Hussein > wrote: > >> Mark and all >> >> Let's raise the bar on transparency and proper reporting is super critical. >> >> For example a quick perusal of the Afrinic Website tells me that:- >> >> 1. The last minutes posted were in February this year. I see there was another Board meeting in April which has no minutes posted yet. Can we try and ensure that board minutes are available for circulation online within 2 weeks of the meeting being held? >> >> 2. It is common best practice for Board members to declare their interests (if any) before any board meeting and these to be duly recorded in the minutes. This will go a long way in enhancing the transparency conversation. >> >> 3. I also note that in the February Board minutes that agenda Item No. 5 on Committees there are no committee reports for Audit and Remuneration. Also no other board committee reports have been presented. >> Question:- why are there no reports on the Audit and Remuneration reports committees? Is this an oversight or were they simply not ready? Can the Board consider making the other committee reports available to the community? >> >> 4. It is now also standard for organizations to publish a Sustainability Report. Most public for profit companies in Kenya now publish a sustainability report. This is even more critical in an Organisation like Afrinic. To give us a sample of what this may look like please see Safaricom's 2016 Sustainability Report below:- >> >> https://www.safaricom.co.ke/images/Downloads/Resources_Downloads/sustainabilityreport_2016.pdf >> >> Ali Hussein >> Principal >> Hussein & Associates >> +254 0713 601113 >> >> Twitter: @AliHKassim >> Skype: abu-jomo >> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim >> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 5 Jun 2017, at 11:37 AM, Mark Elkins > wrote: >> >>> I agree with you Ali. When Andrew first campaigned to be a Board member, one of his goals was increased transparency. I believe that he has helped, with the rest of the Board, achieve this. Transparency though is an ongoing process and its a pity that Andrew was not re-elected to continue assisting in that process. >>> >>> Regarding Andrews points: >>> >>> a) Travel in Africa is not cheap. Rather than just a single line for travel, I'd like to see it a bit more broken up though, categorised something like; >>> i) Training sessions 10, people 20, cost $10,000 >>> ii) Meetings 2, people 40, cost $20,000 >>> iii) Board Travel 8, trips 32, cost $20,000 >>> >>> (or something like that) >>> >>> b - d) Again, I'd like to see a bit more break down, especially in the case of unaudited organisations. On d), the ASO/NRO fees are proportionally paid by RIRs. AfriNIC does pay the lowest proportion. >>> >>> e) I think the moratorium on Business class travel should be maintained, but have the option to upgrade their flights at their expense. When flying for AfriNIC, I was given a Priority Pass card. That privilege should stay to give people access to lounges. I'm happy the CEO flies business (at his discretion). If it was a long flight (ARIN, USA) and overnight and that Board member is the only AfriNIC representative and was presenting the "AfriNIC" slides, let them fly business. I did that once (but travelled economy). >>> >>> >>> On 05/06/2017 08:21, Ali Hussein wrote: >>>> Andrew >>>> >>>> You raise pertinent and important issues. >>>> >>>> The rule of thumb for any public organization is that Transparency trumps (no pun intended) everything else. >>>> >>>> If I were asked and was a member of the Board, I'd advocate for FULL disclosure on financial and operational matters. How money was spent, how much, what was the impact, who received it etc. That in my humble opinion is the best policy. Let us err on the side of too much information as opposed to too little information. >>>> >>>> Ali Hussein >>>> Principal >>>> Hussein & Associates >>>> +254 0713 601113 >>>> >>>> Twitter: @AliHKassim >>>> Skype: abu-jomo >>>> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim >>>> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On 5 Jun 2017, at 8:42 AM, Andrew Alston > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> So ? I want to open a bit of a discussion about transparency, specifically, financial transparency. >>>>> >>>>> In order to get this started ? let me ask a few questions of all of you ? >>>>> >>>>> While we talk about transparency and how it is required ? can we analyze for a moment as to the level of transparency we want. So, to kick this discussion off, let me start by asking some basic questions that we can use as the starting point for this discussion. >>>>> >>>>> a.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as regards how the money we pay towards IP resources is spent. Is it sufficient to show an aggregated line item that refers to travel expenses for example, or do we want to see some kind of a breakdown on what that money is being spent on (considering that travel makes up 10% of the total revenue) >>>>> b.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as members as regards other large scale line items ? specifically ? we spend hundreds of thousands each year on meeting expenses ? should we be asking for a breakdown on what those meeting expenses are ? or are we happy with the organization spending that kind of money under a single large line item. >>>>> c.) When AfriNIC is giving money to other organizations for sponsorship ? what level of transparency and accountability should be required from those organizations. Is it acceptable that AFRINIC makes a decision to give money to organizations that have no formal incorporation, no audited financial statements and no board of their own, or should AFRINIC be scrutinizing those that they give money to far more closely, and asking for the same level of transparency from those that they give money to that we require from them. >>>>> d.) When AFRINIC is funding organizations such as the ASO/NRO ? how much transparency should be supplied back to the members about how that money is being spent and what that funding is actually being used for. >>>>> e.) When AFRINIC is funding board travel to meetings around the world ? should board members be able to attend these conferences without ever supplying reports about what was accomplished at said meetings and what the purpose of the expenditure was, or are we prepared to accept that these meetings must be useful without further questions. >>>>> >>>>> Remember, every cent spent by AfriNIC can have an impact on our fees, and impacts the bottom line of the company. Over the last 3 years, we have come a long way to stabilizing the company and its financial position, but in order to maintain that, we probably need to discuss openly as a community about the level of transparency we want into those finances and then once we as a community come to consensus, we can request the board supply the transparency we agree is necessary. But let us have an open and cordial discussion so that we get to the right point. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Andrew >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >>> >>> -- >>> Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa >>> mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496 >>> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Community-Discuss mailing list >>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jacksonmuthi at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 08:00:46 2017 From: jacksonmuthi at gmail.com (Jackson Muthili) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 11:00:46 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency In-Reply-To: <83171576-2F72-4762-A864-A352BB516A84@delong.com> References: <16074c5c-c827-c84a-60c0-0e3bcdff30b4@posix.co.za> <83171576-2F72-4762-A864-A352BB516A84@delong.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 8:08 AM, Owen DeLong wrote: > I think a more accurate description of the events is that certain portions > of the community with no sense of decorum or fairness spoke very loudly and > refused to give up the floor even after being declared out of order > repeatedly by the chair of the meeting. > > However, I am certain you are unlikely to share my perspective as you are > almost certainly allied with this group of ill-behaved malcontents. Owen please point out that ill-behaved malcontent group you refer to in your e-mail, and what actions (with reference to video or other verifiable sources) were done by that group for you to qualify it as ill-behaved and malcontent. J From ali at hussein.me.ke Thu Jul 13 09:18:47 2017 From: ali at hussein.me.ke (Ali Hussein) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 12:18:47 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency Message-ID: Hi all Without addressing anyone in particular I honestly and humbly wish we can exercise some decorum, good will and a sense of community. There's is too much personalization and hurling of insults and insinuations on this list. May I submit that we can disagree, discourse and add value to each other in the interest of the community without slipping into insults and abuses? Let's engage, agree, disagree, agree to disagree while at the same time maintaining some decorum? I apologise if I'm coming across as preachy but this is important. Regards *Ali Hussein* *Principal* *Hussein & Associates* Tel: +254 713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim 13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing, Chiromo Road, Westlands, Nairobi, Kenya. Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with. On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 8:08 AM, Owen DeLong wrote: > I think a more accurate description of the events is that certain portions > of the community with no sense of decorum or fairness spoke very loudly and > refused to give up the floor even after being declared out of order > repeatedly by the chair of the meeting. > > However, I am certain you are unlikely to share my perspective as you are > almost certainly allied with this group of ill-behaved malcontents. > > Owen > > On Jun 5, 2017, at 19:13 , Badru Ntege wrote: > > Ali > > Thanks for highlighting the issues bellow. Some board members have > claimed championing transparency but I think we all need to have the same > definition of the word. > > The issue of publishing the minutes was a community mandate to the board > not a board initiative. I also like the issue on declaring interest. > > However the community is not blind and eventually the truth comes out as > we saw in Nairobi where the community spoke resoundingly in both ASO and > board elections. > > Regards > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 5 Jun 2017, at 12:39, Ali Hussein wrote: > > Mark and all > > Let's raise the bar on transparency and proper reporting is super critical. > > For example a quick perusal of the Afrinic Website tells me that:- > > 1. The last minutes posted were in February this year. I see there was > another Board meeting in April which has no minutes posted yet. Can we try > and ensure that board minutes are available for circulation online within 2 > weeks of the meeting being held? > > 2. It is common best practice for Board members to declare their interests > (if any) before any board meeting and these to be duly recorded in the > minutes. This will go a long way in enhancing the transparency > conversation. > > 3. I also note that in the February Board minutes that agenda Item No. 5 > on Committees there are no committee reports for Audit and Remuneration. > Also no other board committee reports have been presented. > Question:- why are there no reports on the Audit and Remuneration reports > committees? Is this an oversight or were they simply not ready? Can the > Board consider making the other committee reports available to the > community? > > 4. It is now also standard for organizations to publish a Sustainability > Report. Most public for profit companies in Kenya now publish a > sustainability report. This is even more critical in an Organisation like > Afrinic. To give us a sample of what this may look like please see > Safaricom's 2016 Sustainability Report below:- > > https://www.safaricom.co.ke/images/Downloads/Resources_Downloads/ > sustainabilityreport_2016.pdf > > *Ali Hussein* > *Principal* > *Hussein & Associates* > +254 0713 601113 > > Twitter: @AliHKassim > Skype: abu-jomo > LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim > > "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a > habit." ~ Aristotle > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 5 Jun 2017, at 11:37 AM, Mark Elkins wrote: > > I agree with you Ali. When Andrew first campaigned to be a Board member, > one of his goals was increased transparency. I believe that he has helped, > with the rest of the Board, achieve this. Transparency though is an ongoing > process and its a pity that Andrew was not re-elected to continue assisting > in that process. > > Regarding Andrews points: > > a) Travel in Africa is not cheap. Rather than just a single line for > travel, I'd like to see it a bit more broken up though, categorised > something like; > i) Training sessions 10, people 20, cost $10,000 > ii) Meetings 2, people 40, cost $20,000 > iii) Board Travel 8, trips 32, cost $20,000 > > (or something like that) > > b - d) Again, I'd like to see a bit more break down, especially in the > case of unaudited organisations. On d), the ASO/NRO fees are proportionally > paid by RIRs. AfriNIC does pay the lowest proportion. > > e) I think the moratorium on Business class travel should be maintained, > but have the option to upgrade their flights at their expense. When flying > for AfriNIC, I was given a Priority Pass card. That privilege should stay > to give people access to lounges. I'm happy the CEO flies business (at his > discretion). If it was a long flight (ARIN, USA) and overnight and that > Board member is the only AfriNIC representative and was presenting the > "AfriNIC" slides, let them fly business. I did that once (but travelled > economy). > > On 05/06/2017 08:21, Ali Hussein wrote: > > Andrew > > You raise pertinent and important issues. > > The rule of thumb for any public organization is that Transparency trumps > (no pun intended) everything else. > > If I were asked and was a member of the Board, I'd advocate for FULL > disclosure on financial and operational matters. How money was spent, how > much, what was the impact, who received it etc. That in my humble opinion > is the best policy. Let us err on the side of too much information as > opposed to too little information. > > *Ali Hussein* > *Principal* > *Hussein & Associates* > +254 0713 601113 > > Twitter: @AliHKassim > Skype: abu-jomo > LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim > > "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a > habit." ~ Aristotle > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 5 Jun 2017, at 8:42 AM, Andrew Alston > wrote: > > Hi All, > > So ? I want to open a bit of a discussion about transparency, > specifically, financial transparency. > > In order to get this started ? let me ask a few questions of all of you ? > > While we talk about transparency and how it is required ? can we analyze > for a moment as to the level of transparency we want. So, to kick this > discussion off, let me start by asking some basic questions that we can use > as the starting point for this discussion. > > a.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as > regards how the money we pay towards IP resources is spent. Is it > sufficient to show an aggregated line item that refers to travel expenses > for example, or do we want to see some kind of a breakdown on what that > money is being spent on (considering that travel makes up 10% of the total > revenue) > b.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as > members as regards other large scale line items ? specifically ? we spend > hundreds of thousands each year on meeting expenses ? should we be asking > for a breakdown on what those meeting expenses are ? or are we happy with > the organization spending that kind of money under a single large line item. > c.) When AfriNIC is giving money to other organizations for > sponsorship ? what level of transparency and accountability should be > required from those organizations. Is it acceptable that AFRINIC makes a > decision to give money to organizations that have no formal incorporation, > no audited financial statements and no board of their own, or should > AFRINIC be scrutinizing those that they give money to far more closely, and > asking for the same level of transparency from those that they give money > to that we require from them. > d.) When AFRINIC is funding organizations such as the ASO/NRO ? how > much transparency should be supplied back to the members about how that > money is being spent and what that funding is actually being used for. > e.) When AFRINIC is funding board travel to meetings around the world > ? should board members be able to attend these conferences without ever > supplying reports about what was accomplished at said meetings and what the > purpose of the expenditure was, or are we prepared to accept that these > meetings must be useful without further questions. > > Remember, every cent spent by AfriNIC can have an impact on our fees, and > impacts the bottom line of the company. Over the last 3 years, we have > come a long way to stabilizing the company and its financial position, but > in order to maintain that, we probably need to discuss openly as a > community about the level of transparency we want into those finances and > then once we as a community come to consensus, we can request the board > supply the transparency we agree is necessary. But let us have an open and > cordial discussion so that we get to the right point. > > Thanks > > Andrew > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing listCommunity-Discuss at afrinic.nethttps://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > -- > Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africamje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496 > For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From noah at neo.co.tz Thu Jul 13 11:12:51 2017 From: noah at neo.co.tz (Noah) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 14:12:51 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13 Jul 2017 12:29 p.m., "Ali Hussein" wrote: Hi all Without addressing anyone in particular I honestly and humbly wish we can exercise some decorum, good will and a sense of community. There's is too much personalization and hurling of insults and insinuations on this list. May I submit that we can disagree, discourse and add value to each other in the interest of the community without slipping into insults and abuses? Safi sana Ali Let's engage, agree, disagree, agree to disagree while at the same time maintaining some decorum? +1 Cheers, Noah -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mirriamlauren at yahoo.com Thu Jul 13 15:40:36 2017 From: mirriamlauren at yahoo.com (Mirriam) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 15:40:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1710796090.4773865.1499960436902@mail.yahoo.com> +1 to Ali And a call for all especially those who are linked with networks in Africa to observe some self-restraint and show some respect for other constituencies in the region. Mirriam On Thursday, July 13, 2017, 12:25:47 PM GMT+3, Ali Hussein wrote: Hi all Without addressing anyone in particular I honestly and humbly wish we can exercise some decorum, good will and a sense of community. There's is too much personalization and hurling of insults and insinuations on this list. May I submit that we can disagree, discourse and add value to each other in the interest of the community without slipping into insults and abuses? Let's engage, agree, disagree, agree to disagree while at the same time maintaining some decorum?? I apologise if I'm coming across as preachy but this is important. Regards AliHussein Principal Hussein & Associates ? Tel: +254 713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim 13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing, Chiromo Road, Westlands, Nairobi, Kenya. Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Fri Jul 14 06:57:26 2017 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 06:57:26 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Requests and questions Message-ID: Dear AfriNIC Board, I have been advised that when I had questions or request, that I put them in simple, direct requests. The following are a list of requests 1. Can the board please commission an investigation into whether the lack of a bi-directional transfer policy puts AFRINIC at risk of running afoul of the Mauritius Companies Act of 2007, and in what areas, and exactly what the potential liability is. 2. Can the board please advise the time frames required to commence such an investigation, and once said investigation has been commissioned, advise on the time frames to complete said investigation, and once concluded advise the community of the full results of said investigation 3. Can the board please investigate if the proceedings of board sub-committees, under Mauritian governance, form part of board proceedings, and if they do, advise the community when the meetings of said proceedings shall be published as per the agreement to publish the minutes of board meetings. 4. Can the board please commission an investigation into the limits that the RSA can be modified without member consent in the context of Mauritian law and advise the community of the results (Under Mauritian law, can a contract be changed without the consent of both parties, to the detriment of one, irrespective of what is already signed) 5. In addition to my request this morning on the members list requesting the board to check if any procedures and policies required by any MOU to which AFRINIC is a signatory are missing, can the board please investigate if there are any policies, procedures or committees that are required by a.) the CPM b.) The bylaws c.) the companies act d.) any other source which binds the company and advise the community of a.) the time frames to complete said investigation and b.) once known, the full list of outstanding policies/procedures/committees and c.) the time frames to rectify these areas. I look forward to hearing the results of the above. Many Thanks Andrew Alston -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From badru.ntege at nftconsult.com Fri Jul 14 07:15:18 2017 From: badru.ntege at nftconsult.com (Badru Ntege) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 07:15:18 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency In-Reply-To: <83171576-2F72-4762-A864-A352BB516A84@delong.com> References: <16074c5c-c827-c84a-60c0-0e3bcdff30b4@posix.co.za> <83171576-2F72-4762-A864-A352BB516A84@delong.com> Message-ID: <7B15AB8F-2FF6-42C8-9EAB-AF7D190A19C6@nftconsult.com> Sent from my iPhone On 13 Jul 2017, at 08:10, Owen DeLong > wrote: However, I am certain you are unlikely to share my perspective as you are almost certainly allied with this group of ill-behaved malcontents. ??? I'm allied with the Afrinic community whichever name one might choose to give the community and membership works well with me. Owen On Jun 5, 2017, at 19:13 , Badru Ntege > wrote: Ali Thanks for highlighting the issues bellow. Some board members have claimed championing transparency but I think we all need to have the same definition of the word. The issue of publishing the minutes was a community mandate to the board not a board initiative. I also like the issue on declaring interest. However the community is not blind and eventually the truth comes out as we saw in Nairobi where the community spoke resoundingly in both ASO and board elections. Regards Sent from my iPhone On 5 Jun 2017, at 12:39, Ali Hussein > wrote: Mark and all Let's raise the bar on transparency and proper reporting is super critical. For example a quick perusal of the Afrinic Website tells me that:- 1. The last minutes posted were in February this year. I see there was another Board meeting in April which has no minutes posted yet. Can we try and ensure that board minutes are available for circulation online within 2 weeks of the meeting being held? 2. It is common best practice for Board members to declare their interests (if any) before any board meeting and these to be duly recorded in the minutes. This will go a long way in enhancing the transparency conversation. 3. I also note that in the February Board minutes that agenda Item No. 5 on Committees there are no committee reports for Audit and Remuneration. Also no other board committee reports have been presented. Question:- why are there no reports on the Audit and Remuneration reports committees? Is this an oversight or were they simply not ready? Can the Board consider making the other committee reports available to the community? 4. It is now also standard for organizations to publish a Sustainability Report. Most public for profit companies in Kenya now publish a sustainability report. This is even more critical in an Organisation like Afrinic. To give us a sample of what this may look like please see Safaricom's 2016 Sustainability Report below:- https://www.safaricom.co.ke/images/Downloads/Resources_Downloads/sustainabilityreport_2016.pdf Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle Sent from my iPad On 5 Jun 2017, at 11:37 AM, Mark Elkins > wrote: I agree with you Ali. When Andrew first campaigned to be a Board member, one of his goals was increased transparency. I believe that he has helped, with the rest of the Board, achieve this. Transparency though is an ongoing process and its a pity that Andrew was not re-elected to continue assisting in that process. Regarding Andrews points: a) Travel in Africa is not cheap. Rather than just a single line for travel, I'd like to see it a bit more broken up though, categorised something like; i) Training sessions 10, people 20, cost $10,000 ii) Meetings 2, people 40, cost $20,000 iii) Board Travel 8, trips 32, cost $20,000 (or something like that) b - d) Again, I'd like to see a bit more break down, especially in the case of unaudited organisations. On d), the ASO/NRO fees are proportionally paid by RIRs. AfriNIC does pay the lowest proportion. e) I think the moratorium on Business class travel should be maintained, but have the option to upgrade their flights at their expense. When flying for AfriNIC, I was given a Priority Pass card. That privilege should stay to give people access to lounges. I'm happy the CEO flies business (at his discretion). If it was a long flight (ARIN, USA) and overnight and that Board member is the only AfriNIC representative and was presenting the "AfriNIC" slides, let them fly business. I did that once (but travelled economy). On 05/06/2017 08:21, Ali Hussein wrote: Andrew You raise pertinent and important issues. The rule of thumb for any public organization is that Transparency trumps (no pun intended) everything else. If I were asked and was a member of the Board, I'd advocate for FULL disclosure on financial and operational matters. How money was spent, how much, what was the impact, who received it etc. That in my humble opinion is the best policy. Let us err on the side of too much information as opposed to too little information. Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle Sent from my iPad On 5 Jun 2017, at 8:42 AM, Andrew Alston > wrote: Hi All, So ? I want to open a bit of a discussion about transparency, specifically, financial transparency. In order to get this started ? let me ask a few questions of all of you ? While we talk about transparency and how it is required ? can we analyze for a moment as to the level of transparency we want. So, to kick this discussion off, let me start by asking some basic questions that we can use as the starting point for this discussion. a.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as regards how the money we pay towards IP resources is spent. Is it sufficient to show an aggregated line item that refers to travel expenses for example, or do we want to see some kind of a breakdown on what that money is being spent on (considering that travel makes up 10% of the total revenue) b.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as members as regards other large scale line items ? specifically ? we spend hundreds of thousands each year on meeting expenses ? should we be asking for a breakdown on what those meeting expenses are ? or are we happy with the organization spending that kind of money under a single large line item. c.) When AfriNIC is giving money to other organizations for sponsorship ? what level of transparency and accountability should be required from those organizations. Is it acceptable that AFRINIC makes a decision to give money to organizations that have no formal incorporation, no audited financial statements and no board of their own, or should AFRINIC be scrutinizing those that they give money to far more closely, and asking for the same level of transparency from those that they give money to that we require from them. d.) When AFRINIC is funding organizations such as the ASO/NRO ? how much transparency should be supplied back to the members about how that money is being spent and what that funding is actually being used for. e.) When AFRINIC is funding board travel to meetings around the world ? should board members be able to attend these conferences without ever supplying reports about what was accomplished at said meetings and what the purpose of the expenditure was, or are we prepared to accept that these meetings must be useful without further questions. Remember, every cent spent by AfriNIC can have an impact on our fees, and impacts the bottom line of the company. Over the last 3 years, we have come a long way to stabilizing the company and its financial position, but in order to maintain that, we probably need to discuss openly as a community about the level of transparency we want into those finances and then once we as a community come to consensus, we can request the board supply the transparency we agree is necessary. But let us have an open and cordial discussion so that we get to the right point. Thanks Andrew _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Fri Jul 14 07:20:50 2017 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 07:20:50 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency In-Reply-To: <7B15AB8F-2FF6-42C8-9EAB-AF7D190A19C6@nftconsult.com> References: <16074c5c-c827-c84a-60c0-0e3bcdff30b4@posix.co.za> <83171576-2F72-4762-A864-A352BB516A84@delong.com> <7B15AB8F-2FF6-42C8-9EAB-AF7D190A19C6@nftconsult.com> Message-ID: Having read all of this, I would like to start a bit of a research project in my spare (albeit limited) time ? so here is what I plan to do. I want to analyse every single email across the various lists going back 6 years ? in an attempt to identify the factions that exists (as has been stated at all 3 of the last 3 meetings, there is a definite sense of factionalism within the AfriNIC community, and that observation has been made at the microphone by multiple people) Then, let us identify 1. When these factions arose and why 2. Who are the people who are leading these factions Then ? once that information has been gathered in as objective fashion as possible, through looking at the emails and the responses, the substantiation behind those responses, looking at the videos of the PDP meeting and the questions at the microphone and the responses to follow-ups etc, we can then look at potentially finding a way to resolve the divides, potentially even by putting the leaders of said factions in the same room and getting them to work out the issues, so that we can get back to a point where we are discussing based on policy, based on content, and based on issues that are substantive, rather than from a geographic, linguistic or other perspective. Now ? such a complete research project if it is to be done properly, is immensely time consuming due to the volume of material to go through, and so, I?d like to invite volunteers who would like to assist in this project. This also helps to mitigate the risk that the report that comes out of this will be in any way biased, since those working on it are volunteers from across the continent. Please email me off list if you?d be willing to assist. Thanks Andrew From: Badru Ntege [mailto:badru.ntege at nftconsult.com] Sent: 14 July 2017 10:15 To: Owen DeLong Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency Sent from my iPhone On 13 Jul 2017, at 08:10, Owen DeLong > wrote: However, I am certain you are unlikely to share my perspective as you are almost certainly allied with this group of ill-behaved malcontents. ??? I'm allied with the Afrinic community whichever name one might choose to give the community and membership works well with me. Owen On Jun 5, 2017, at 19:13 , Badru Ntege > wrote: Ali Thanks for highlighting the issues bellow. Some board members have claimed championing transparency but I think we all need to have the same definition of the word. The issue of publishing the minutes was a community mandate to the board not a board initiative. I also like the issue on declaring interest. However the community is not blind and eventually the truth comes out as we saw in Nairobi where the community spoke resoundingly in both ASO and board elections. Regards Sent from my iPhone On 5 Jun 2017, at 12:39, Ali Hussein > wrote: Mark and all Let's raise the bar on transparency and proper reporting is super critical. For example a quick perusal of the Afrinic Website tells me that:- 1. The last minutes posted were in February this year. I see there was another Board meeting in April which has no minutes posted yet. Can we try and ensure that board minutes are available for circulation online within 2 weeks of the meeting being held? 2. It is common best practice for Board members to declare their interests (if any) before any board meeting and these to be duly recorded in the minutes. This will go a long way in enhancing the transparency conversation. 3. I also note that in the February Board minutes that agenda Item No. 5 on Committees there are no committee reports for Audit and Remuneration. Also no other board committee reports have been presented. Question:- why are there no reports on the Audit and Remuneration reports committees? Is this an oversight or were they simply not ready? Can the Board consider making the other committee reports available to the community? 4. It is now also standard for organizations to publish a Sustainability Report. Most public for profit companies in Kenya now publish a sustainability report. This is even more critical in an Organisation like Afrinic. To give us a sample of what this may look like please see Safaricom's 2016 Sustainability Report below:- https://www.safaricom.co.ke/images/Downloads/Resources_Downloads/sustainabilityreport_2016.pdf Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle Sent from my iPad On 5 Jun 2017, at 11:37 AM, Mark Elkins > wrote: I agree with you Ali. When Andrew first campaigned to be a Board member, one of his goals was increased transparency. I believe that he has helped, with the rest of the Board, achieve this. Transparency though is an ongoing process and its a pity that Andrew was not re-elected to continue assisting in that process. Regarding Andrews points: a) Travel in Africa is not cheap. Rather than just a single line for travel, I'd like to see it a bit more broken up though, categorised something like; i) Training sessions 10, people 20, cost $10,000 ii) Meetings 2, people 40, cost $20,000 iii) Board Travel 8, trips 32, cost $20,000 (or something like that) b - d) Again, I'd like to see a bit more break down, especially in the case of unaudited organisations. On d), the ASO/NRO fees are proportionally paid by RIRs. AfriNIC does pay the lowest proportion. e) I think the moratorium on Business class travel should be maintained, but have the option to upgrade their flights at their expense. When flying for AfriNIC, I was given a Priority Pass card. That privilege should stay to give people access to lounges. I'm happy the CEO flies business (at his discretion). If it was a long flight (ARIN, USA) and overnight and that Board member is the only AfriNIC representative and was presenting the "AfriNIC" slides, let them fly business. I did that once (but travelled economy). On 05/06/2017 08:21, Ali Hussein wrote: Andrew You raise pertinent and important issues. The rule of thumb for any public organization is that Transparency trumps (no pun intended) everything else. If I were asked and was a member of the Board, I'd advocate for FULL disclosure on financial and operational matters. How money was spent, how much, what was the impact, who received it etc. That in my humble opinion is the best policy. Let us err on the side of too much information as opposed to too little information. Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle Sent from my iPad On 5 Jun 2017, at 8:42 AM, Andrew Alston > wrote: Hi All, So ? I want to open a bit of a discussion about transparency, specifically, financial transparency. In order to get this started ? let me ask a few questions of all of you ? While we talk about transparency and how it is required ? can we analyze for a moment as to the level of transparency we want. So, to kick this discussion off, let me start by asking some basic questions that we can use as the starting point for this discussion. a.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as regards how the money we pay towards IP resources is spent. Is it sufficient to show an aggregated line item that refers to travel expenses for example, or do we want to see some kind of a breakdown on what that money is being spent on (considering that travel makes up 10% of the total revenue) b.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as members as regards other large scale line items ? specifically ? we spend hundreds of thousands each year on meeting expenses ? should we be asking for a breakdown on what those meeting expenses are ? or are we happy with the organization spending that kind of money under a single large line item. c.) When AfriNIC is giving money to other organizations for sponsorship ? what level of transparency and accountability should be required from those organizations. Is it acceptable that AFRINIC makes a decision to give money to organizations that have no formal incorporation, no audited financial statements and no board of their own, or should AFRINIC be scrutinizing those that they give money to far more closely, and asking for the same level of transparency from those that they give money to that we require from them. d.) When AFRINIC is funding organizations such as the ASO/NRO ? how much transparency should be supplied back to the members about how that money is being spent and what that funding is actually being used for. e.) When AFRINIC is funding board travel to meetings around the world ? should board members be able to attend these conferences without ever supplying reports about what was accomplished at said meetings and what the purpose of the expenditure was, or are we prepared to accept that these meetings must be useful without further questions. Remember, every cent spent by AfriNIC can have an impact on our fees, and impacts the bottom line of the company. Over the last 3 years, we have come a long way to stabilizing the company and its financial position, but in order to maintain that, we probably need to discuss openly as a community about the level of transparency we want into those finances and then once we as a community come to consensus, we can request the board supply the transparency we agree is necessary. But let us have an open and cordial discussion so that we get to the right point. Thanks Andrew _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From badru.ntege at nftconsult.com Fri Jul 14 08:25:41 2017 From: badru.ntege at nftconsult.com (Badru Ntege) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 08:25:41 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency In-Reply-To: References: <16074c5c-c827-c84a-60c0-0e3bcdff30b4@posix.co.za> <83171576-2F72-4762-A864-A352BB516A84@delong.com> <7B15AB8F-2FF6-42C8-9EAB-AF7D190A19C6@nftconsult.com>, Message-ID: <26046648-3CA9-48C9-BE02-E4D53E982F4C@nftconsult.com> So I'm curious how this will contribute to the achievement of AfriNICs mission statement. Or even the internet community in general. I would rather prefer to see your energys directed in an additive activity Sent from my iPhone On 14 Jul 2017, at 10:22, Andrew Alston > wrote: Having read all of this, I would like to start a bit of a research project in my spare (albeit limited) time ? so here is what I plan to do. I want to analyse every single email across the various lists going back 6 years ? in an attempt to identify the factions that exists (as has been stated at all 3 of the last 3 meetings, there is a definite sense of factionalism within the AfriNIC community, and that observation has been made at the microphone by multiple people) Then, let us identify 1. When these factions arose and why 2. Who are the people who are leading these factions Then ? once that information has been gathered in as objective fashion as possible, through looking at the emails and the responses, the substantiation behind those responses, looking at the videos of the PDP meeting and the questions at the microphone and the responses to follow-ups etc, we can then look at potentially finding a way to resolve the divides, potentially even by putting the leaders of said factions in the same room and getting them to work out the issues, so that we can get back to a point where we are discussing based on policy, based on content, and based on issues that are substantive, rather than from a geographic, linguistic or other perspective. Now ? such a complete research project if it is to be done properly, is immensely time consuming due to the volume of material to go through, and so, I?d like to invite volunteers who would like to assist in this project. This also helps to mitigate the risk that the report that comes out of this will be in any way biased, since those working on it are volunteers from across the continent. Please email me off list if you?d be willing to assist. Thanks Andrew From: Badru Ntege [mailto:badru.ntege at nftconsult.com] Sent: 14 July 2017 10:15 To: Owen DeLong > Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency Sent from my iPhone On 13 Jul 2017, at 08:10, Owen DeLong > wrote: However, I am certain you are unlikely to share my perspective as you are almost certainly allied with this group of ill-behaved malcontents. ??? I'm allied with the Afrinic community whichever name one might choose to give the community and membership works well with me. Owen On Jun 5, 2017, at 19:13 , Badru Ntege > wrote: Ali Thanks for highlighting the issues bellow. Some board members have claimed championing transparency but I think we all need to have the same definition of the word. The issue of publishing the minutes was a community mandate to the board not a board initiative. I also like the issue on declaring interest. However the community is not blind and eventually the truth comes out as we saw in Nairobi where the community spoke resoundingly in both ASO and board elections. Regards Sent from my iPhone On 5 Jun 2017, at 12:39, Ali Hussein > wrote: Mark and all Let's raise the bar on transparency and proper reporting is super critical. For example a quick perusal of the Afrinic Website tells me that:- 1. The last minutes posted were in February this year. I see there was another Board meeting in April which has no minutes posted yet. Can we try and ensure that board minutes are available for circulation online within 2 weeks of the meeting being held? 2. It is common best practice for Board members to declare their interests (if any) before any board meeting and these to be duly recorded in the minutes. This will go a long way in enhancing the transparency conversation. 3. I also note that in the February Board minutes that agenda Item No. 5 on Committees there are no committee reports for Audit and Remuneration. Also no other board committee reports have been presented. Question:- why are there no reports on the Audit and Remuneration reports committees? Is this an oversight or were they simply not ready? Can the Board consider making the other committee reports available to the community? 4. It is now also standard for organizations to publish a Sustainability Report. Most public for profit companies in Kenya now publish a sustainability report. This is even more critical in an Organisation like Afrinic. To give us a sample of what this may look like please see Safaricom's 2016 Sustainability Report below:- https://www.safaricom.co.ke/images/Downloads/Resources_Downloads/sustainabilityreport_2016.pdf Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle Sent from my iPad On 5 Jun 2017, at 11:37 AM, Mark Elkins > wrote: I agree with you Ali. When Andrew first campaigned to be a Board member, one of his goals was increased transparency. I believe that he has helped, with the rest of the Board, achieve this. Transparency though is an ongoing process and its a pity that Andrew was not re-elected to continue assisting in that process. Regarding Andrews points: a) Travel in Africa is not cheap. Rather than just a single line for travel, I'd like to see it a bit more broken up though, categorised something like; i) Training sessions 10, people 20, cost $10,000 ii) Meetings 2, people 40, cost $20,000 iii) Board Travel 8, trips 32, cost $20,000 (or something like that) b - d) Again, I'd like to see a bit more break down, especially in the case of unaudited organisations. On d), the ASO/NRO fees are proportionally paid by RIRs. AfriNIC does pay the lowest proportion. e) I think the moratorium on Business class travel should be maintained, but have the option to upgrade their flights at their expense. When flying for AfriNIC, I was given a Priority Pass card. That privilege should stay to give people access to lounges. I'm happy the CEO flies business (at his discretion). If it was a long flight (ARIN, USA) and overnight and that Board member is the only AfriNIC representative and was presenting the "AfriNIC" slides, let them fly business. I did that once (but travelled economy). On 05/06/2017 08:21, Ali Hussein wrote: Andrew You raise pertinent and important issues. The rule of thumb for any public organization is that Transparency trumps (no pun intended) everything else. If I were asked and was a member of the Board, I'd advocate for FULL disclosure on financial and operational matters. How money was spent, how much, what was the impact, who received it etc. That in my humble opinion is the best policy. Let us err on the side of too much information as opposed to too little information. Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle Sent from my iPad On 5 Jun 2017, at 8:42 AM, Andrew Alston > wrote: Hi All, So ? I want to open a bit of a discussion about transparency, specifically, financial transparency. In order to get this started ? let me ask a few questions of all of you ? While we talk about transparency and how it is required ? can we analyze for a moment as to the level of transparency we want. So, to kick this discussion off, let me start by asking some basic questions that we can use as the starting point for this discussion. a.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as regards how the money we pay towards IP resources is spent. Is it sufficient to show an aggregated line item that refers to travel expenses for example, or do we want to see some kind of a breakdown on what that money is being spent on (considering that travel makes up 10% of the total revenue) b.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as members as regards other large scale line items ? specifically ? we spend hundreds of thousands each year on meeting expenses ? should we be asking for a breakdown on what those meeting expenses are ? or are we happy with the organization spending that kind of money under a single large line item. c.) When AfriNIC is giving money to other organizations for sponsorship ? what level of transparency and accountability should be required from those organizations. Is it acceptable that AFRINIC makes a decision to give money to organizations that have no formal incorporation, no audited financial statements and no board of their own, or should AFRINIC be scrutinizing those that they give money to far more closely, and asking for the same level of transparency from those that they give money to that we require from them. d.) When AFRINIC is funding organizations such as the ASO/NRO ? how much transparency should be supplied back to the members about how that money is being spent and what that funding is actually being used for. e.) When AFRINIC is funding board travel to meetings around the world ? should board members be able to attend these conferences without ever supplying reports about what was accomplished at said meetings and what the purpose of the expenditure was, or are we prepared to accept that these meetings must be useful without further questions. Remember, every cent spent by AfriNIC can have an impact on our fees, and impacts the bottom line of the company. Over the last 3 years, we have come a long way to stabilizing the company and its financial position, but in order to maintain that, we probably need to discuss openly as a community about the level of transparency we want into those finances and then once we as a community come to consensus, we can request the board supply the transparency we agree is necessary. But let us have an open and cordial discussion so that we get to the right point. Thanks Andrew _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jacksonmuthi at gmail.com Fri Jul 14 08:46:53 2017 From: jacksonmuthi at gmail.com (Jackson Muthili) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 11:46:53 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Requests and questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Andrew Alston wrote: > Dear AfriNIC Board, > > I have been advised that when I had questions or request, that I put them in > simple, direct requests. The following are a list of requests > > Can the board please commission an investigation into whether the lack of a > bi-directional transfer policy puts AFRINIC at risk of running afoul of the > Mauritius Companies Act of 2007, and in what areas, and exactly what the > potential liability is. > Can the board please advise the time frames required to commence such an > investigation, and once said investigation has been commissioned, advise on > the time frames to complete said investigation, and once concluded advise > the community of the full results of said investigation > Can the board please investigate if the proceedings of board sub-committees, > under Mauritian governance, form part of board proceedings, and if they do, > advise the community when the meetings of said proceedings shall be > published as per the agreement to publish the minutes of board meetings. > Can the board please commission an investigation into the limits that the > RSA can be modified without member consent in the context of Mauritian law > and advise the community of the results (Under Mauritian law, can a contract > be changed without the consent of both parties, to the detriment of one, > irrespective of what is already signed) > In addition to my request this morning on the members list requesting the > board to check if any procedures and policies required by any MOU to which > AFRINIC is a signatory are missing, can the board please investigate if > there are any policies, procedures or committees that are required by a.) > the CPM b.) The bylaws c.) the companies act d.) any other source which > binds the company and advise the community of a.) the time frames to > complete said investigation and b.) once known, the full list of outstanding > policies/procedures/committees and c.) the time frames to rectify these > areas. > > I look forward to hearing the results of the above. > > Many Thanks > > Andrew Alston What problem are you trying to solve, exactly? Your attempts to pile so much work with unclear objectives on volunteers of an not-for-profit company that you claimed is struggling financially will stress those volunteers to the point where they will demand to be remunerated, further exacerbating the very financial situation the company is in. I would like to see a very clear problem that your above requests are aiming to solve, if the problem is shared with others from the community, and if many agree that they warrant the extra work you are trying to put onto our volunteering board directors. Please if possible keep your replies concise not very long and wordy emails. J From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Fri Jul 14 09:08:14 2017 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 09:08:14 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency In-Reply-To: <26046648-3CA9-48C9-BE02-E4D53E982F4C@nftconsult.com> References: <16074c5c-c827-c84a-60c0-0e3bcdff30b4@posix.co.za> <83171576-2F72-4762-A864-A352BB516A84@delong.com> <7B15AB8F-2FF6-42C8-9EAB-AF7D190A19C6@nftconsult.com>, , <26046648-3CA9-48C9-BE02-E4D53E982F4C@nftconsult.com> Message-ID: This is a personal project, that's others may or may not choose to contribute to. It is my belief that understanding the factionalism is key to solving it - and I feel this is beneficial, so I shall proceed. I hope to have others join with me in the effort, but barring that I will still proceed in a solo effort, it will just take longer Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Badru Ntege Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 11:25:41 AM To: Andrew Alston Cc: Owen DeLong; community-discuss at afrinic.net Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency So I'm curious how this will contribute to the achievement of AfriNICs mission statement. Or even the internet community in general. I would rather prefer to see your energys directed in an additive activity Sent from my iPhone On 14 Jul 2017, at 10:22, Andrew Alston > wrote: Having read all of this, I would like to start a bit of a research project in my spare (albeit limited) time ? so here is what I plan to do. I want to analyse every single email across the various lists going back 6 years ? in an attempt to identify the factions that exists (as has been stated at all 3 of the last 3 meetings, there is a definite sense of factionalism within the AfriNIC community, and that observation has been made at the microphone by multiple people) Then, let us identify 1. When these factions arose and why 2. Who are the people who are leading these factions Then ? once that information has been gathered in as objective fashion as possible, through looking at the emails and the responses, the substantiation behind those responses, looking at the videos of the PDP meeting and the questions at the microphone and the responses to follow-ups etc, we can then look at potentially finding a way to resolve the divides, potentially even by putting the leaders of said factions in the same room and getting them to work out the issues, so that we can get back to a point where we are discussing based on policy, based on content, and based on issues that are substantive, rather than from a geographic, linguistic or other perspective. Now ? such a complete research project if it is to be done properly, is immensely time consuming due to the volume of material to go through, and so, I?d like to invite volunteers who would like to assist in this project. This also helps to mitigate the risk that the report that comes out of this will be in any way biased, since those working on it are volunteers from across the continent. Please email me off list if you?d be willing to assist. Thanks Andrew From: Badru Ntege [mailto:badru.ntege at nftconsult.com] Sent: 14 July 2017 10:15 To: Owen DeLong > Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency Sent from my iPhone On 13 Jul 2017, at 08:10, Owen DeLong > wrote: However, I am certain you are unlikely to share my perspective as you are almost certainly allied with this group of ill-behaved malcontents. ??? I'm allied with the Afrinic community whichever name one might choose to give the community and membership works well with me. Owen On Jun 5, 2017, at 19:13 , Badru Ntege > wrote: Ali Thanks for highlighting the issues bellow. Some board members have claimed championing transparency but I think we all need to have the same definition of the word. The issue of publishing the minutes was a community mandate to the board not a board initiative. I also like the issue on declaring interest. However the community is not blind and eventually the truth comes out as we saw in Nairobi where the community spoke resoundingly in both ASO and board elections. Regards Sent from my iPhone On 5 Jun 2017, at 12:39, Ali Hussein > wrote: Mark and all Let's raise the bar on transparency and proper reporting is super critical. For example a quick perusal of the Afrinic Website tells me that:- 1. The last minutes posted were in February this year. I see there was another Board meeting in April which has no minutes posted yet. Can we try and ensure that board minutes are available for circulation online within 2 weeks of the meeting being held? 2. It is common best practice for Board members to declare their interests (if any) before any board meeting and these to be duly recorded in the minutes. This will go a long way in enhancing the transparency conversation. 3. I also note that in the February Board minutes that agenda Item No. 5 on Committees there are no committee reports for Audit and Remuneration. Also no other board committee reports have been presented. Question:- why are there no reports on the Audit and Remuneration reports committees? Is this an oversight or were they simply not ready? Can the Board consider making the other committee reports available to the community? 4. It is now also standard for organizations to publish a Sustainability Report. Most public for profit companies in Kenya now publish a sustainability report. This is even more critical in an Organisation like Afrinic. To give us a sample of what this may look like please see Safaricom's 2016 Sustainability Report below:- https://www.safaricom.co.ke/images/Downloads/Resources_Downloads/sustainabilityreport_2016.pdf Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle Sent from my iPad On 5 Jun 2017, at 11:37 AM, Mark Elkins > wrote: I agree with you Ali. When Andrew first campaigned to be a Board member, one of his goals was increased transparency. I believe that he has helped, with the rest of the Board, achieve this. Transparency though is an ongoing process and its a pity that Andrew was not re-elected to continue assisting in that process. Regarding Andrews points: a) Travel in Africa is not cheap. Rather than just a single line for travel, I'd like to see it a bit more broken up though, categorised something like; i) Training sessions 10, people 20, cost $10,000 ii) Meetings 2, people 40, cost $20,000 iii) Board Travel 8, trips 32, cost $20,000 (or something like that) b - d) Again, I'd like to see a bit more break down, especially in the case of unaudited organisations. On d), the ASO/NRO fees are proportionally paid by RIRs. AfriNIC does pay the lowest proportion. e) I think the moratorium on Business class travel should be maintained, but have the option to upgrade their flights at their expense. When flying for AfriNIC, I was given a Priority Pass card. That privilege should stay to give people access to lounges. I'm happy the CEO flies business (at his discretion). If it was a long flight (ARIN, USA) and overnight and that Board member is the only AfriNIC representative and was presenting the "AfriNIC" slides, let them fly business. I did that once (but travelled economy). On 05/06/2017 08:21, Ali Hussein wrote: Andrew You raise pertinent and important issues. The rule of thumb for any public organization is that Transparency trumps (no pun intended) everything else. If I were asked and was a member of the Board, I'd advocate for FULL disclosure on financial and operational matters. How money was spent, how much, what was the impact, who received it etc. That in my humble opinion is the best policy. Let us err on the side of too much information as opposed to too little information. Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle Sent from my iPad On 5 Jun 2017, at 8:42 AM, Andrew Alston > wrote: Hi All, So ? I want to open a bit of a discussion about transparency, specifically, financial transparency. In order to get this started ? let me ask a few questions of all of you ? While we talk about transparency and how it is required ? can we analyze for a moment as to the level of transparency we want. So, to kick this discussion off, let me start by asking some basic questions that we can use as the starting point for this discussion. a.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as regards how the money we pay towards IP resources is spent. Is it sufficient to show an aggregated line item that refers to travel expenses for example, or do we want to see some kind of a breakdown on what that money is being spent on (considering that travel makes up 10% of the total revenue) b.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as members as regards other large scale line items ? specifically ? we spend hundreds of thousands each year on meeting expenses ? should we be asking for a breakdown on what those meeting expenses are ? or are we happy with the organization spending that kind of money under a single large line item. c.) When AfriNIC is giving money to other organizations for sponsorship ? what level of transparency and accountability should be required from those organizations. Is it acceptable that AFRINIC makes a decision to give money to organizations that have no formal incorporation, no audited financial statements and no board of their own, or should AFRINIC be scrutinizing those that they give money to far more closely, and asking for the same level of transparency from those that they give money to that we require from them. d.) When AFRINIC is funding organizations such as the ASO/NRO ? how much transparency should be supplied back to the members about how that money is being spent and what that funding is actually being used for. e.) When AFRINIC is funding board travel to meetings around the world ? should board members be able to attend these conferences without ever supplying reports about what was accomplished at said meetings and what the purpose of the expenditure was, or are we prepared to accept that these meetings must be useful without further questions. Remember, every cent spent by AfriNIC can have an impact on our fees, and impacts the bottom line of the company. Over the last 3 years, we have come a long way to stabilizing the company and its financial position, but in order to maintain that, we probably need to discuss openly as a community about the level of transparency we want into those finances and then once we as a community come to consensus, we can request the board supply the transparency we agree is necessary. But let us have an open and cordial discussion so that we get to the right point. Thanks Andrew _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d.hilario at laruscloudservice.net Fri Jul 14 09:32:53 2017 From: d.hilario at laruscloudservice.net (David Hilario) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 12:32:53 +0300 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency In-Reply-To: References: <16074c5c-c827-c84a-60c0-0e3bcdff30b4@posix.co.za> <83171576-2F72-4762-A864-A352BB516A84@delong.com> <7B15AB8F-2FF6-42C8-9EAB-AF7D190A19C6@nftconsult.com> <26046648-3CA9-48C9-BE02-E4D53E982F4C@nftconsult.com> Message-ID: Hi Andrew, I believe a lot can be learned from statistics and trend. The end results might be that there are no patterns, trend and no "factions" as a conclusion. But anyone who knows me knows I love digging in archives, there is so much things to learn from past documents and historical conversations archived forever. So from a personal point of view, count me in. I really can only justify participating in my free time, but I surely can contribute a few hours here and there. PM me the details for any further info on this. Cheers, David Hilario On 14 July 2017 at 12:08, Andrew Alston wrote: > This is a personal project, that's others may or may not choose to > contribute to. It is my belief that understanding the factionalism is key > to solving it - and I feel this is beneficial, so I shall proceed. > > I hope to have others join with me in the effort, but barring that I will > still proceed in a solo effort, it will just take longer > > Andrew > > Get Outlook for iOS > ________________________________ > From: Badru Ntege > Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 11:25:41 AM > To: Andrew Alston > Cc: Owen DeLong; community-discuss at afrinic.net > > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency > > So I'm curious how this will contribute to the achievement of AfriNICs > mission statement. Or even the internet community in general. > > I would rather prefer to see your energys directed in an additive activity > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 14 Jul 2017, at 10:22, Andrew Alston > wrote: > > Having read all of this, > > > > I would like to start a bit of a research project in my spare (albeit > limited) time ? so here is what I plan to do. > > > > I want to analyse every single email across the various lists going back 6 > years ? in an attempt to identify the factions that exists (as has been > stated at all 3 of the last 3 meetings, there is a definite sense of > factionalism within the AfriNIC community, and that observation has been > made at the microphone by multiple people) > > Then, let us identify > > > > When these factions arose and why > Who are the people who are leading these factions > > > > Then ? once that information has been gathered in as objective fashion as > possible, through looking at the emails and the responses, the > substantiation behind those responses, looking at the videos of the PDP > meeting and the questions at the microphone and the responses to follow-ups > etc, we can then look at potentially finding a way to resolve the divides, > potentially even by putting the leaders of said factions in the same room > and getting them to work out the issues, so that we can get back to a point > where we are discussing based on policy, based on content, and based on > issues that are substantive, rather than from a geographic, linguistic or > other perspective. > > > > Now ? such a complete research project if it is to be done properly, is > immensely time consuming due to the volume of material to go through, and > so, I?d like to invite volunteers who would like to assist in this project. > This also helps to mitigate the risk that the report that comes out of this > will be in any way biased, since those working on it are volunteers from > across the continent. > > > > Please email me off list if you?d be willing to assist. > > > > Thanks > > > > Andrew > > > > > > From: Badru Ntege [mailto:badru.ntege at nftconsult.com] > Sent: 14 July 2017 10:15 > To: Owen DeLong > Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 13 Jul 2017, at 08:10, Owen DeLong wrote: > > > > However, I am certain you are unlikely to share my perspective as you are > almost certainly allied with this group of ill-behaved malcontents. > > > > ??? > > I'm allied with the Afrinic community whichever name one might choose to > give the community and membership works well with me. > > > > > > Owen > > > > On Jun 5, 2017, at 19:13 , Badru Ntege wrote: > > > > Ali > > > > Thanks for highlighting the issues bellow. Some board members have claimed > championing transparency but I think we all need to have the same definition > of the word. > > > > The issue of publishing the minutes was a community mandate to the board not > a board initiative. I also like the issue on declaring interest. > > > > However the community is not blind and eventually the truth comes out as we > saw in Nairobi where the community spoke resoundingly in both ASO and board > elections. > > > > Regards > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 5 Jun 2017, at 12:39, Ali Hussein wrote: > > Mark and all > > > > Let's raise the bar on transparency and proper reporting is super critical. > > > > For example a quick perusal of the Afrinic Website tells me that:- > > > > 1. The last minutes posted were in February this year. I see there was > another Board meeting in April which has no minutes posted yet. Can we try > and ensure that board minutes are available for circulation online within 2 > weeks of the meeting being held? > > > > 2. It is common best practice for Board members to declare their interests > (if any) before any board meeting and these to be duly recorded in the > minutes. This will go a long way in enhancing the transparency conversation. > > > > 3. I also note that in the February Board minutes that agenda Item No. 5 on > Committees there are no committee reports for Audit and Remuneration. Also > no other board committee reports have been presented. > > Question:- why are there no reports on the Audit and Remuneration reports > committees? Is this an oversight or were they simply not ready? Can the > Board consider making the other committee reports available to the > community? > > > > 4. It is now also standard for organizations to publish a Sustainability > Report. Most public for profit companies in Kenya now publish a > sustainability report. This is even more critical in an Organisation like > Afrinic. To give us a sample of what this may look like please see > Safaricom's 2016 Sustainability Report below:- > > > > https://www.safaricom.co.ke/images/Downloads/Resources_Downloads/sustainabilityreport_2016.pdf > > > > Ali Hussein > > Principal > > Hussein & Associates > > +254 0713 601113 > > > > Twitter: @AliHKassim > > Skype: abu-jomo > > LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim > > > > "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a > habit." ~ Aristotle > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 5 Jun 2017, at 11:37 AM, Mark Elkins wrote: > > I agree with you Ali. When Andrew first campaigned to be a Board member, one > of his goals was increased transparency. I believe that he has helped, with > the rest of the Board, achieve this. Transparency though is an ongoing > process and its a pity that Andrew was not re-elected to continue assisting > in that process. > > Regarding Andrews points: > > a) Travel in Africa is not cheap. Rather than just a single line for travel, > I'd like to see it a bit more broken up though, categorised something like; > i) Training sessions 10, people 20, cost $10,000 > ii) Meetings 2, people 40, cost $20,000 > iii) Board Travel 8, trips 32, cost $20,000 > > (or something like that) > > b - d) Again, I'd like to see a bit more break down, especially in the case > of unaudited organisations. On d), the ASO/NRO fees are proportionally paid > by RIRs. AfriNIC does pay the lowest proportion. > > e) I think the moratorium on Business class travel should be maintained, but > have the option to upgrade their flights at their expense. When flying for > AfriNIC, I was given a Priority Pass card. That privilege should stay to > give people access to lounges. I'm happy the CEO flies business (at his > discretion). If it was a long flight (ARIN, USA) and overnight and that > Board member is the only AfriNIC representative and was presenting the > "AfriNIC" slides, let them fly business. I did that once (but travelled > economy). > > > > On 05/06/2017 08:21, Ali Hussein wrote: > > Andrew > > > > You raise pertinent and important issues. > > > > The rule of thumb for any public organization is that Transparency trumps > (no pun intended) everything else. > > > > If I were asked and was a member of the Board, I'd advocate for FULL > disclosure on financial and operational matters. How money was spent, how > much, what was the impact, who received it etc. That in my humble opinion is > the best policy. Let us err on the side of too much information as opposed > to too little information. > > Ali Hussein > > Principal > > Hussein & Associates > > +254 0713 601113 > > > > Twitter: @AliHKassim > > Skype: abu-jomo > > LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim > > > > "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a > habit." ~ Aristotle > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 5 Jun 2017, at 8:42 AM, Andrew Alston > wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > So ? I want to open a bit of a discussion about transparency, specifically, > financial transparency. > > > > In order to get this started ? let me ask a few questions of all of you ? > > > > While we talk about transparency and how it is required ? can we analyze for > a moment as to the level of transparency we want. So, to kick this > discussion off, let me start by asking some basic questions that we can use > as the starting point for this discussion. > > > > a.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as > regards how the money we pay towards IP resources is spent. Is it > sufficient to show an aggregated line item that refers to travel expenses > for example, or do we want to see some kind of a breakdown on what that > money is being spent on (considering that travel makes up 10% of the total > revenue) > > b.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as > members as regards other large scale line items ? specifically ? we spend > hundreds of thousands each year on meeting expenses ? should we be asking > for a breakdown on what those meeting expenses are ? or are we happy with > the organization spending that kind of money under a single large line item. > > c.) When AfriNIC is giving money to other organizations for sponsorship > ? what level of transparency and accountability should be required from > those organizations. Is it acceptable that AFRINIC makes a decision to give > money to organizations that have no formal incorporation, no audited > financial statements and no board of their own, or should AFRINIC be > scrutinizing those that they give money to far more closely, and asking for > the same level of transparency from those that they give money to that we > require from them. > > d.) When AFRINIC is funding organizations such as the ASO/NRO ? how much > transparency should be supplied back to the members about how that money is > being spent and what that funding is actually being used for. > > e.) When AFRINIC is funding board travel to meetings around the world ? > should board members be able to attend these conferences without ever > supplying reports about what was accomplished at said meetings and what the > purpose of the expenditure was, or are we prepared to accept that these > meetings must be useful without further questions. > > > > Remember, every cent spent by AfriNIC can have an impact on our fees, and > impacts the bottom line of the company. Over the last 3 years, we have come > a long way to stabilizing the company and its financial position, but in > order to maintain that, we probably need to discuss openly as a community > about the level of transparency we want into those finances and then once we > as a community come to consensus, we can request the board supply the > transparency we agree is necessary. But let us have an open and cordial > discussion so that we get to the right point. > > > > Thanks > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Community-Discuss mailing list > > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > -- > > Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa > > mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496 > > For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Fri Jul 14 09:49:56 2017 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 09:49:56 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Requests and questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5415C73D-9DF6-4F78-B04B-43B523125F8C@liquidtelecom.com> Hi Jackson, It?s really simple ? every entity at the moment that receives resources from AFRINIC relies on those resources to operate. That means, anything that can threaten the RIR is a direct and untenable threat to the companies that rely on it for those resources ? and that means ? responsible businesses have a duty to understand the risks and make decisions based on those risks. With regards to the work and the time ? I point out ? every board member travels to conferences on behalf of AFRINIC ? for which this community gets no reports of what happens at those conferences or the benefit to the members. I would argue that without those reports, it is easy to conclude that the time spent away from home for days at a time would be better spent mitigating risks to members and answering the direct questions about the members as regards potential risks and how to solve them. When you volunteer for AFRINIC ? you take on fiduciary duty ? not a holiday ? that duty includes ensuring the company is properly run and that the interests of the members, who fund the organization and who you represent are served ? and that is what board members are there for. Andrew On 14/07/2017, 11:46, "Jackson Muthili" wrote: On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Andrew Alston wrote: > Dear AfriNIC Board, > > I have been advised that when I had questions or request, that I put them in > simple, direct requests. The following are a list of requests > > Can the board please commission an investigation into whether the lack of a > bi-directional transfer policy puts AFRINIC at risk of running afoul of the > Mauritius Companies Act of 2007, and in what areas, and exactly what the > potential liability is. > Can the board please advise the time frames required to commence such an > investigation, and once said investigation has been commissioned, advise on > the time frames to complete said investigation, and once concluded advise > the community of the full results of said investigation > Can the board please investigate if the proceedings of board sub-committees, > under Mauritian governance, form part of board proceedings, and if they do, > advise the community when the meetings of said proceedings shall be > published as per the agreement to publish the minutes of board meetings. > Can the board please commission an investigation into the limits that the > RSA can be modified without member consent in the context of Mauritian law > and advise the community of the results (Under Mauritian law, can a contract > be changed without the consent of both parties, to the detriment of one, > irrespective of what is already signed) > In addition to my request this morning on the members list requesting the > board to check if any procedures and policies required by any MOU to which > AFRINIC is a signatory are missing, can the board please investigate if > there are any policies, procedures or committees that are required by a.) > the CPM b.) The bylaws c.) the companies act d.) any other source which > binds the company and advise the community of a.) the time frames to > complete said investigation and b.) once known, the full list of outstanding > policies/procedures/committees and c.) the time frames to rectify these > areas. > > I look forward to hearing the results of the above. > > Many Thanks > > Andrew Alston What problem are you trying to solve, exactly? Your attempts to pile so much work with unclear objectives on volunteers of an not-for-profit company that you claimed is struggling financially will stress those volunteers to the point where they will demand to be remunerated, further exacerbating the very financial situation the company is in. I would like to see a very clear problem that your above requests are aiming to solve, if the problem is shared with others from the community, and if many agree that they warrant the extra work you are trying to put onto our volunteering board directors. Please if possible keep your replies concise not very long and wordy emails. J From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Fri Jul 14 09:54:49 2017 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 09:54:49 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Requests and questions In-Reply-To: <5415C73D-9DF6-4F78-B04B-43B523125F8C@liquidtelecom.com> References: <5415C73D-9DF6-4F78-B04B-43B523125F8C@liquidtelecom.com> Message-ID: Jackson, I also point out as another note ? the fees paid to afrinic in certain cases are in excess of *20 TIMES* the fees that would be paid for the same address space in other RIR?s. I do not think it is unreasonable to request work done by an organization to which such hefty amounts of money are paid ? and also ? in no way did I ask the board to do this work themselves ? most of that work can be outsourced to external legal firms ? which would be a good use of the amounts of money they are paid. Andrew From: Andrew Alston Date: Friday, 14 July 2017 at 12:49 To: Jackson Muthili Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC , AFRINIC Board of Directors' List Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Requests and questions Hi Jackson, It?s really simple ? every entity at the moment that receives resources from AFRINIC relies on those resources to operate. That means, anything that can threaten the RIR is a direct and untenable threat to the companies that rely on it for those resources ? and that means ? responsible businesses have a duty to understand the risks and make decisions based on those risks. With regards to the work and the time ? I point out ? every board member travels to conferences on behalf of AFRINIC ? for which this community gets no reports of what happens at those conferences or the benefit to the members. I would argue that without those reports, it is easy to conclude that the time spent away from home for days at a time would be better spent mitigating risks to members and answering the direct questions about the members as regards potential risks and how to solve them. When you volunteer for AFRINIC ? you take on fiduciary duty ? not a holiday ? that duty includes ensuring the company is properly run and that the interests of the members, who fund the organization and who you represent are served ? and that is what board members are there for. Andrew On 14/07/2017, 11:46, "Jackson Muthili" wrote: On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Andrew Alston wrote: > Dear AfriNIC Board, > > I have been advised that when I had questions or request, that I put them in > simple, direct requests. The following are a list of requests > > Can the board please commission an investigation into whether the lack of a > bi-directional transfer policy puts AFRINIC at risk of running afoul of the > Mauritius Companies Act of 2007, and in what areas, and exactly what the > potential liability is. > Can the board please advise the time frames required to commence such an > investigation, and once said investigation has been commissioned, advise on > the time frames to complete said investigation, and once concluded advise > the community of the full results of said investigation > Can the board please investigate if the proceedings of board sub-committees, > under Mauritian governance, form part of board proceedings, and if they do, > advise the community when the meetings of said proceedings shall be > published as per the agreement to publish the minutes of board meetings. > Can the board please commission an investigation into the limits that the > RSA can be modified without member consent in the context of Mauritian law > and advise the community of the results (Under Mauritian law, can a contract > be changed without the consent of both parties, to the detriment of one, > irrespective of what is already signed) > In addition to my request this morning on the members list requesting the > board to check if any procedures and policies required by any MOU to which > AFRINIC is a signatory are missing, can the board please investigate if > there are any policies, procedures or committees that are required by a.) > the CPM b.) The bylaws c.) the companies act d.) any other source which > binds the company and advise the community of a.) the time frames to > complete said investigation and b.) once known, the full list of outstanding > policies/procedures/committees and c.) the time frames to rectify these > areas. > > I look forward to hearing the results of the above. > > Many Thanks > > Andrew Alston What problem are you trying to solve, exactly? Your attempts to pile so much work with unclear objectives on volunteers of an not-for-profit company that you claimed is struggling financially will stress those volunteers to the point where they will demand to be remunerated, further exacerbating the very financial situation the company is in. I would like to see a very clear problem that your above requests are aiming to solve, if the problem is shared with others from the community, and if many agree that they warrant the extra work you are trying to put onto our volunteering board directors. Please if possible keep your replies concise not very long and wordy emails. J _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Sat Jul 15 01:59:30 2017 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 18:59:30 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency In-Reply-To: References: <16074c5c-c827-c84a-60c0-0e3bcdff30b4@posix.co.za> <83171576-2F72-4762-A864-A352BB516A84@delong.com> Message-ID: <93B367F4-65E0-43BD-895D-E5B42315DE04@delong.com> During both the election process and the public policy meeting, there were multiple instances of the same individuals refusing to cede the microphone after the chair repeatedly called them out of order. I will leave searching the video archives as an exercise for the reader as I have better things to do with my time. However, if you doubt this occurred, I?m willing to bet there are plenty of others who were present in the room that can vouch for my statement here. Owen > On Jul 13, 2017, at 01:00 , Jackson Muthili wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 8:08 AM, Owen DeLong wrote: >> I think a more accurate description of the events is that certain portions >> of the community with no sense of decorum or fairness spoke very loudly and >> refused to give up the floor even after being declared out of order >> repeatedly by the chair of the meeting. >> >> However, I am certain you are unlikely to share my perspective as you are >> almost certainly allied with this group of ill-behaved malcontents. > > Owen please point out that ill-behaved malcontent group you refer to > in your e-mail, and what actions (with reference to video or other > verifiable sources) were done by that group for you to qualify it as > ill-behaved and malcontent. > > J From sfolayan at gmail.com Sat Jul 15 06:02:41 2017 From: sfolayan at gmail.com (Sunday Folayan) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2017 07:02:41 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Requests and questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <054e0e18-ea3d-44bb-7103-622ef3152bf3@gmail.com> Dear Mr Alston, Thank you very much for your email and questions. The Board will get back to you within the next 60 days. Regards ... Sunday. On 14/07/2017 07:57, Andrew Alston wrote: > > Dear AfriNIC Board, > > I have been advised that when I had questions or request, that I put > them in simple, direct requests. The following are a list of requests > > 1. Can the board please commission an investigation into whether the > lack of a bi-directional transfer policy puts AFRINIC at risk of > running afoul of the Mauritius Companies Act of 2007, and in what > areas, and exactly what the potential liability is. > 2. Can the board please advise the time frames required to commence > such an investigation, and once said investigation has been > commissioned, advise on the time frames to complete said > investigation, and once concluded advise the community of the full > results of said investigation > 3. Can the board please investigate if the proceedings of board > sub-committees, under Mauritian governance, form part of board > proceedings, and if they do, advise the community when the > meetings of said proceedings shall be published as per the > agreement to publish the minutes of board meetings. > 4. Can the board please commission an investigation into the limits > that the RSA can be modified without member consent in the context > of Mauritian law and advise the community of the results (Under > Mauritian law, can a contract be changed without the consent of > both parties, to the detriment of one, irrespective of what is > already signed) > 5. In addition to my request this morning on the members list > requesting the board to check if any procedures and policies > required by any MOU to which AFRINIC is a signatory are missing, > can the board please investigate if there are any policies, > procedures or committees that are required by a.) the CPM b.) The > bylaws c.) the companies act d.) any other source which binds the > company and advise the community of a.) the time frames to > complete said investigation and b.) once known, the full list of > outstanding policies/procedures/committees and c.) the time frames > to rectify these areas. > > I look forward to hearing the results of the above. > > Many Thanks > > Andrew Alston > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- -------------------------------------------------- Sunday Adekunle Folayan Managing Director General data Engineering Services (SKANNET) 16 Oshin Road, Kongi Bodija, Ibadan - Nigeria Phone: +234 802 291 2202, +234 816 866 7523 Email: sfolayan at skannet.com.ng, sfolayan at gmail.com --------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From virtual.borg at gmail.com Mon Jul 17 05:06:50 2017 From: virtual.borg at gmail.com (Chevalier du Borg) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:06:50 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency In-Reply-To: <26046648-3CA9-48C9-BE02-E4D53E982F4C@nftconsult.com> References: <16074c5c-c827-c84a-60c0-0e3bcdff30b4@posix.co.za> <83171576-2F72-4762-A864-A352BB516A84@delong.com> <7B15AB8F-2FF6-42C8-9EAB-AF7D190A19C6@nftconsult.com> <26046648-3CA9-48C9-BE02-E4D53E982F4C@nftconsult.com> Message-ID: @Andrew: I have became very suspicious of anyting that pass for "research". Good research start with clear hypothesis. So far I don't see any as well as clear methodologie of how you will proof or disproof hypothesis. 2017-07-14 12:25 GMT+04:00 Badru Ntege : > So I'm curious how this will contribute to the achievement of AfriNICs > mission statement. > By debunk "Alternative Realities" and "Alternative Facts". That always a good thing. True FACT might not matter to this community. But they will be useful to future generation reading this list As for stat: I will like to see stat that show Badru and Andrew agree on ANYTHING and vice versa. It just is not possible that EVERYTHING one say is bad or damaging or unhelpful. > Or even the internet community in general. > > I would rather prefer to see your energys directed in an additive activity > It will really help this community if you Badru can state 3 good thing Andrew has ever done for this community and vice versa. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 14 Jul 2017, at 10:22, Andrew Alston > wrote: > > Having read all of this, > > > > I would like to start a bit of a research project in my spare (albeit > limited) time ? so here is what I plan to do. > > > > I want to analyse every single email across the various lists going back 6 > years ? in an attempt to identify the factions that exists (as has been > stated at all 3 of the last 3 meetings, there is a definite sense of > factionalism within the AfriNIC community, and that observation has been > made at the microphone by multiple people) > > Then, let us identify > > > > 1. When these factions arose and why > 2. Who are the people who are leading these factions > > > > Then ? once that information has been gathered in as objective fashion as > possible, through looking at the emails and the responses, the > substantiation behind those responses, looking at the videos of the PDP > meeting and the questions at the microphone and the responses to follow-ups > etc, we can then look at potentially finding a way to resolve the divides, > potentially even by putting the leaders of said factions in the same room > and getting them to work out the issues, so that we can get back to a point > where we are discussing based on policy, based on content, and based on > issues that are substantive, rather than from a geographic, linguistic or > other perspective. > > > > Now ? such a complete research project if it is to be done properly, is > immensely time consuming due to the volume of material to go through, and > so, I?d like to invite volunteers who would like to assist in this > project. This also helps to mitigate the risk that the report that comes > out of this will be in any way biased, since those working on it are > volunteers from across the continent. > > > > Please email me off list if you?d be willing to assist. > > > > Thanks > > > > Andrew > > > > > > *From:* Badru Ntege [mailto:badru.ntege at nftconsult.com > ] > *Sent:* 14 July 2017 10:15 > *To:* Owen DeLong > *Cc:* community-discuss at afrinic.net > *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 13 Jul 2017, at 08:10, Owen DeLong wrote: > > > > However, I am certain you are unlikely to share my perspective as you are > almost certainly allied with this group of ill-behaved malcontents. > > > > ??? > > I'm allied with the Afrinic community whichever name one might choose to > give the community and membership works well with me. > > > > > > Owen > > > > On Jun 5, 2017, at 19:13 , Badru Ntege wrote: > > > > Ali > > > > Thanks for highlighting the issues bellow. Some board members have > claimed championing transparency but I think we all need to have the same > definition of the word. > > > > The issue of publishing the minutes was a community mandate to the board > not a board initiative. I also like the issue on declaring interest. > > > > However the community is not blind and eventually the truth comes out as > we saw in Nairobi where the community spoke resoundingly in both ASO and > board elections. > > > > Regards > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 5 Jun 2017, at 12:39, Ali Hussein wrote: > > Mark and all > > > > Let's raise the bar on transparency and proper reporting is super critical. > > > > For example a quick perusal of the Afrinic Website tells me that:- > > > > 1. The last minutes posted were in February this year. I see there was > another Board meeting in April which has no minutes posted yet. Can we try > and ensure that board minutes are available for circulation online within 2 > weeks of the meeting being held? > > > > 2. It is common best practice for Board members to declare their interests > (if any) before any board meeting and these to be duly recorded in the > minutes. This will go a long way in enhancing the transparency > conversation. > > > > 3. I also note that in the February Board minutes that agenda Item No. 5 > on Committees there are no committee reports for Audit and Remuneration. > Also no other board committee reports have been presented. > > Question:- why are there no reports on the Audit and Remuneration reports > committees? Is this an oversight or were they simply not ready? Can the > Board consider making the other committee reports available to the > community? > > > > 4. It is now also standard for organizations to publish a Sustainability > Report. Most public for profit companies in Kenya now publish a > sustainability report. This is even more critical in an Organisation like > Afrinic. To give us a sample of what this may look like please see > Safaricom's 2016 Sustainability Report below:- > > > > https://www.safaricom.co.ke/images/Downloads/Resources_Downloads/ > sustainabilityreport_2016.pdf > > > > *Ali Hussein* > > *Principal* > > *Hussein & Associates* > > +254 0713 601113 <+254%20713%20601113> > > > > Twitter: @AliHKassim > > Skype: abu-jomo > > LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim > > > > "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a > habit." ~ Aristotle > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 5 Jun 2017, at 11:37 AM, Mark Elkins wrote: > > I agree with you Ali. When Andrew first campaigned to be a Board member, > one of his goals was increased transparency. I believe that he has helped, > with the rest of the Board, achieve this. Transparency though is an ongoing > process and its a pity that Andrew was not re-elected to continue assisting > in that process. > > Regarding Andrews points: > > a) Travel in Africa is not cheap. Rather than just a single line for > travel, I'd like to see it a bit more broken up though, categorised > something like; > i) Training sessions 10, people 20, cost $10,000 > ii) Meetings 2, people 40, cost $20,000 > iii) Board Travel 8, trips 32, cost $20,000 > > (or something like that) > > b - d) Again, I'd like to see a bit more break down, especially in the > case of unaudited organisations. On d), the ASO/NRO fees are proportionally > paid by RIRs. AfriNIC does pay the lowest proportion. > > e) I think the moratorium on Business class travel should be maintained, > but have the option to upgrade their flights at their expense. When flying > for AfriNIC, I was given a Priority Pass card. That privilege should stay > to give people access to lounges. I'm happy the CEO flies business (at his > discretion). If it was a long flight (ARIN, USA) and overnight and that > Board member is the only AfriNIC representative and was presenting the > "AfriNIC" slides, let them fly business. I did that once (but travelled > economy). > > > > On 05/06/2017 08:21, Ali Hussein wrote: > > Andrew > > > > You raise pertinent and important issues. > > > > The rule of thumb for any public organization is that Transparency trumps > (no pun intended) everything else. > > > > If I were asked and was a member of the Board, I'd advocate for FULL > disclosure on financial and operational matters. How money was spent, how > much, what was the impact, who received it etc. That in my humble opinion > is the best policy. Let us err on the side of too much information as > opposed to too little information. > > *Ali Hussein* > > *Principal* > > *Hussein & Associates* > > +254 0713 601113 <+254%20713%20601113> > > > > Twitter: @AliHKassim > > Skype: abu-jomo > > LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim > > > > "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a > habit." ~ Aristotle > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 5 Jun 2017, at 8:42 AM, Andrew Alston > wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > So ? I want to open a bit of a discussion about transparency, > specifically, financial transparency. > > > > In order to get this started ? let me ask a few questions of all of you ? > > > > While we talk about transparency and how it is required ? can we analyze > for a moment as to the level of transparency we want. So, to kick this > discussion off, let me start by asking some basic questions that we can use > as the starting point for this discussion. > > > > a.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as > regards how the money we pay towards IP resources is spent. Is it > sufficient to show an aggregated line item that refers to travel expenses > for example, or do we want to see some kind of a breakdown on what that > money is being spent on (considering that travel makes up 10% of the total > revenue) > > b.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as > members as regards other large scale line items ? specifically ? we spend > hundreds of thousands each year on meeting expenses ? should we be asking > for a breakdown on what those meeting expenses are ? or are we happy with > the organization spending that kind of money under a single large line item. > > c.) When AfriNIC is giving money to other organizations for > sponsorship ? what level of transparency and accountability should be > required from those organizations. Is it acceptable that AFRINIC makes a > decision to give money to organizations that have no formal incorporation, > no audited financial statements and no board of their own, or should > AFRINIC be scrutinizing those that they give money to far more closely, and > asking for the same level of transparency from those that they give money > to that we require from them. > > d.) When AFRINIC is funding organizations such as the ASO/NRO ? how > much transparency should be supplied back to the members about how that > money is being spent and what that funding is actually being used for. > > e.) When AFRINIC is funding board travel to meetings around the world > ? should board members be able to attend these conferences without ever > supplying reports about what was accomplished at said meetings and what the > purpose of the expenditure was, or are we prepared to accept that these > meetings must be useful without further questions. > > > > Remember, every cent spent by AfriNIC can have an impact on our fees, and > impacts the bottom line of the company. Over the last 3 years, we have > come a long way to stabilizing the company and its financial position, but > in order to maintain that, we probably need to discuss openly as a > community about the level of transparency we want into those finances and > then once we as a community come to consensus, we can request the board > supply the transparency we agree is necessary. But let us have an open and > cordial discussion so that we get to the right point. > > > > Thanks > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Community-Discuss mailing list > > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > -- > > Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa > > mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 <+27%2012%20807%200590> Cell: +27.826010496 <+27%2082%20601%200496> > > For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > -- Borg le Chevalier ___________________________________ "Common sense is what tells us the world is flat" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From badru.ntege at nftconsult.com Mon Jul 17 11:21:33 2017 From: badru.ntege at nftconsult.com (Badru Ntege) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 11:21:33 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency In-Reply-To: References: <16074c5c-c827-c84a-60c0-0e3bcdff30b4@posix.co.za> <83171576-2F72-4762-A864-A352BB516A84@delong.com> <7B15AB8F-2FF6-42C8-9EAB-AF7D190A19C6@nftconsult.com> <26046648-3CA9-48C9-BE02-E4D53E982F4C@nftconsult.com>, Message-ID: <73A9676F-280E-446A-98B2-64395445F32D@nftconsult.com> @Chevailer On 17 Jul 2017, at 8:08 am, Chevalier du Borg > wrote: @Andrew: I have became very suspicious of anyting that pass for "research". Good research start with clear hypothesis. So far I don't see any as well as clear methodologie of how you will proof or disproof hypothesis. 2017-07-14 12:25 GMT+04:00 Badru Ntege >: So I'm curious how this will contribute to the achievement of AfriNICs mission statement. By debunk "Alternative Realities" and "Alternative Facts". That always a good thing. True FACT might not matter to this community. But they will be useful to future generation reading this list As for stat: I will like to see stat that show Badru and Andrew agree on ANYTHING and vice versa. It just is not possible that EVERYTHING one say is bad or damaging or unhelpful. You need only need to look at the thread there are times when we might be saying the same thing but using different language. I also think we both agree on the importance of AfriNIC and that alone encompasses many aspects of how the entire bottom process works. Or even the internet community in general. I would rather prefer to see your energys directed in an additive activity It will really help this community if you Badru can state 3 good thing Andrew has ever done for this community and vice versa. Asking for only 3 would be short changing Andrew. I actually believe he has many positive aspects. But I also beleive we all through our contributions and continuos dialogue serve the community so would be wrong to try and single out individuals. Because someone's contribution drives one to respond does not mean that one is against the Contributor. Infact it should be taken as a complement by the contributor. I want us to focus on the content of the discussion and not the author. Sent from my iPhone On 14 Jul 2017, at 10:22, Andrew Alston > wrote: Having read all of this, I would like to start a bit of a research project in my spare (albeit limited) time ? so here is what I plan to do. I want to analyse every single email across the various lists going back 6 years ? in an attempt to identify the factions that exists (as has been stated at all 3 of the last 3 meetings, there is a definite sense of factionalism within the AfriNIC community, and that observation has been made at the microphone by multiple people) Then, let us identify 1. When these factions arose and why 2. Who are the people who are leading these factions Then ? once that information has been gathered in as objective fashion as possible, through looking at the emails and the responses, the substantiation behind those responses, looking at the videos of the PDP meeting and the questions at the microphone and the responses to follow-ups etc, we can then look at potentially finding a way to resolve the divides, potentially even by putting the leaders of said factions in the same room and getting them to work out the issues, so that we can get back to a point where we are discussing based on policy, based on content, and based on issues that are substantive, rather than from a geographic, linguistic or other perspective. Now ? such a complete research project if it is to be done properly, is immensely time consuming due to the volume of material to go through, and so, I?d like to invite volunteers who would like to assist in this project. This also helps to mitigate the risk that the report that comes out of this will be in any way biased, since those working on it are volunteers from across the continent. Please email me off list if you?d be willing to assist. Thanks Andrew From: Badru Ntege [mailto:badru.ntege at nftconsult.com] Sent: 14 July 2017 10:15 To: Owen DeLong > Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency Sent from my iPhone On 13 Jul 2017, at 08:10, Owen DeLong > wrote: However, I am certain you are unlikely to share my perspective as you are almost certainly allied with this group of ill-behaved malcontents. ??? I'm allied with the Afrinic community whichever name one might choose to give the community and membership works well with me. Owen On Jun 5, 2017, at 19:13 , Badru Ntege > wrote: Ali Thanks for highlighting the issues bellow. Some board members have claimed championing transparency but I think we all need to have the same definition of the word. The issue of publishing the minutes was a community mandate to the board not a board initiative. I also like the issue on declaring interest. However the community is not blind and eventually the truth comes out as we saw in Nairobi where the community spoke resoundingly in both ASO and board elections. Regards Sent from my iPhone On 5 Jun 2017, at 12:39, Ali Hussein > wrote: Mark and all Let's raise the bar on transparency and proper reporting is super critical. For example a quick perusal of the Afrinic Website tells me that:- 1. The last minutes posted were in February this year. I see there was another Board meeting in April which has no minutes posted yet. Can we try and ensure that board minutes are available for circulation online within 2 weeks of the meeting being held? 2. It is common best practice for Board members to declare their interests (if any) before any board meeting and these to be duly recorded in the minutes. This will go a long way in enhancing the transparency conversation. 3. I also note that in the February Board minutes that agenda Item No. 5 on Committees there are no committee reports for Audit and Remuneration. Also no other board committee reports have been presented. Question:- why are there no reports on the Audit and Remuneration reports committees? Is this an oversight or were they simply not ready? Can the Board consider making the other committee reports available to the community? 4. It is now also standard for organizations to publish a Sustainability Report. Most public for profit companies in Kenya now publish a sustainability report. This is even more critical in an Organisation like Afrinic. To give us a sample of what this may look like please see Safaricom's 2016 Sustainability Report below:- https://www.safaricom.co.ke/images/Downloads/Resources_Downloads/sustainabilityreport_2016.pdf Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle Sent from my iPad On 5 Jun 2017, at 11:37 AM, Mark Elkins > wrote: I agree with you Ali. When Andrew first campaigned to be a Board member, one of his goals was increased transparency. I believe that he has helped, with the rest of the Board, achieve this. Transparency though is an ongoing process and its a pity that Andrew was not re-elected to continue assisting in that process. Regarding Andrews points: a) Travel in Africa is not cheap. Rather than just a single line for travel, I'd like to see it a bit more broken up though, categorised something like; i) Training sessions 10, people 20, cost $10,000 ii) Meetings 2, people 40, cost $20,000 iii) Board Travel 8, trips 32, cost $20,000 (or something like that) b - d) Again, I'd like to see a bit more break down, especially in the case of unaudited organisations. On d), the ASO/NRO fees are proportionally paid by RIRs. AfriNIC does pay the lowest proportion. e) I think the moratorium on Business class travel should be maintained, but have the option to upgrade their flights at their expense. When flying for AfriNIC, I was given a Priority Pass card. That privilege should stay to give people access to lounges. I'm happy the CEO flies business (at his discretion). If it was a long flight (ARIN, USA) and overnight and that Board member is the only AfriNIC representative and was presenting the "AfriNIC" slides, let them fly business. I did that once (but travelled economy). On 05/06/2017 08:21, Ali Hussein wrote: Andrew You raise pertinent and important issues. The rule of thumb for any public organization is that Transparency trumps (no pun intended) everything else. If I were asked and was a member of the Board, I'd advocate for FULL disclosure on financial and operational matters. How money was spent, how much, what was the impact, who received it etc. That in my humble opinion is the best policy. Let us err on the side of too much information as opposed to too little information. Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle Sent from my iPad On 5 Jun 2017, at 8:42 AM, Andrew Alston > wrote: Hi All, So ? I want to open a bit of a discussion about transparency, specifically, financial transparency. In order to get this started ? let me ask a few questions of all of you ? While we talk about transparency and how it is required ? can we analyze for a moment as to the level of transparency we want. So, to kick this discussion off, let me start by asking some basic questions that we can use as the starting point for this discussion. a.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as regards how the money we pay towards IP resources is spent. Is it sufficient to show an aggregated line item that refers to travel expenses for example, or do we want to see some kind of a breakdown on what that money is being spent on (considering that travel makes up 10% of the total revenue) b.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as members as regards other large scale line items ? specifically ? we spend hundreds of thousands each year on meeting expenses ? should we be asking for a breakdown on what those meeting expenses are ? or are we happy with the organization spending that kind of money under a single large line item. c.) When AfriNIC is giving money to other organizations for sponsorship ? what level of transparency and accountability should be required from those organizations. Is it acceptable that AFRINIC makes a decision to give money to organizations that have no formal incorporation, no audited financial statements and no board of their own, or should AFRINIC be scrutinizing those that they give money to far more closely, and asking for the same level of transparency from those that they give money to that we require from them. d.) When AFRINIC is funding organizations such as the ASO/NRO ? how much transparency should be supplied back to the members about how that money is being spent and what that funding is actually being used for. e.) When AFRINIC is funding board travel to meetings around the world ? should board members be able to attend these conferences without ever supplying reports about what was accomplished at said meetings and what the purpose of the expenditure was, or are we prepared to accept that these meetings must be useful without further questions. Remember, every cent spent by AfriNIC can have an impact on our fees, and impacts the bottom line of the company. Over the last 3 years, we have come a long way to stabilizing the company and its financial position, but in order to maintain that, we probably need to discuss openly as a community about the level of transparency we want into those finances and then once we as a community come to consensus, we can request the board supply the transparency we agree is necessary. But let us have an open and cordial discussion so that we get to the right point. Thanks Andrew _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- Borg le Chevalier ___________________________________ "Common sense is what tells us the world is flat" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From virtual.borg at gmail.com Mon Jul 17 12:45:13 2017 From: virtual.borg at gmail.com (Chevalier du Borg) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 16:45:13 +0400 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency In-Reply-To: <73A9676F-280E-446A-98B2-64395445F32D@nftconsult.com> References: <16074c5c-c827-c84a-60c0-0e3bcdff30b4@posix.co.za> <83171576-2F72-4762-A864-A352BB516A84@delong.com> <7B15AB8F-2FF6-42C8-9EAB-AF7D190A19C6@nftconsult.com> <26046648-3CA9-48C9-BE02-E4D53E982F4C@nftconsult.com> <73A9676F-280E-446A-98B2-64395445F32D@nftconsult.com> Message-ID: 2017-07-17 15:21 GMT+04:00 Badru Ntege : > @Chevailer > > > On 17 Jul 2017, at 8:08 am, Chevalier du Borg > wrote: > > > @Andrew: > > I have became very suspicious of anyting that pass for "research". Good > research start with clear hypothesis. So far I don't see any as well as > clear methodologie of how you will proof or disproof hypothesis. > > > 2017-07-14 12:25 GMT+04:00 Badru Ntege : > >> So I'm curious how this will contribute to the achievement of AfriNICs >> mission statement. >> > > > By debunk "Alternative Realities" and "Alternative Facts". That always a > good thing. > True FACT might not matter to this community. But they will be useful to > future generation reading this list > > As for stat: I will like to see stat that show Badru and Andrew agree on > ANYTHING and vice versa. It just is not possible that EVERYTHING one say is > bad or damaging or unhelpful. > > > You need only need to look at the thread there are times when we might be > saying the same thing but using different language. > But the kind of language you two tend to use completely kill any implied agreement. I am yet to see one instance of constructive thing that you two work on for the benefit of this community. > I also think we both agree on the importance of AfriNIC and that alone > encompasses many aspects of how the entire bottom process works. > That apply to everyone on this list, including reason that are self-serving. > > > > >> Or even the internet community in general. >> >> I would rather prefer to see your energys directed in an additive >> activity >> > > > It will really help this community if you Badru can state 3 good thing > Andrew has ever done for this community and vice versa. > > > Asking for only 3 would be short changing Andrew. I actually believe he > has many positive aspects. > That is a non-answer. Seems like 99% of both of your communication at each other are antagonist and hostile. As ex board members, as leader of this community, it will help us heal and be respectful if you both show less bitterness, and mutuelle respect. > > But I also believe we all through our contributions and continuos dialogue > serve the community so would be wrong to try and single out individuals. > That correct, I single you two out because the big majorite of your mails to/about each other are hostile, so much they drown any constructiveness you may be trying to build. > > Because someone's contribution drives one to respond does not mean that > one is against the Contributor > Ordinaryly, yes. but there must be balance in attack vs affirmation. I see 99% attack and I can not even remember affirmation. > > I want us to focus on the content of the discussion and not the author. > one thing I've learn on this list. AUTHOR matter more than content. Some things must always be attacked by Mr Y if Mr X says them. > > > > > > > > >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On 14 Jul 2017, at 10:22, Andrew Alston >> wrote: >> >> Having read all of this, >> >> >> >> I would like to start a bit of a research project in my spare (albeit >> limited) time ? so here is what I plan to do. >> >> >> >> I want to analyse every single email across the various lists going back >> 6 years ? in an attempt to identify the factions that exists (as has been >> stated at all 3 of the last 3 meetings, there is a definite sense of >> factionalism within the AfriNIC community, and that observation has been >> made at the microphone by multiple people) >> >> Then, let us identify >> >> >> >> 1. When these factions arose and why >> 2. Who are the people who are leading these factions >> >> >> >> Then ? once that information has been gathered in as objective fashion as >> possible, through looking at the emails and the responses, the >> substantiation behind those responses, looking at the videos of the PDP >> meeting and the questions at the microphone and the responses to follow-ups >> etc, we can then look at potentially finding a way to resolve the divides, >> potentially even by putting the leaders of said factions in the same room >> and getting them to work out the issues, so that we can get back to a point >> where we are discussing based on policy, based on content, and based on >> issues that are substantive, rather than from a geographic, linguistic or >> other perspective. >> >> >> >> Now ? such a complete research project if it is to be done properly, is >> immensely time consuming due to the volume of material to go through, and >> so, I?d like to invite volunteers who would like to assist in this >> project. This also helps to mitigate the risk that the report that comes >> out of this will be in any way biased, since those working on it are >> volunteers from across the continent. >> >> >> >> Please email me off list if you?d be willing to assist. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Andrew >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Badru Ntege [mailto:badru.ntege at nftconsult.com >> ] >> *Sent:* 14 July 2017 10:15 >> *To:* Owen DeLong >> *Cc:* community-discuss at afrinic.net >> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On 13 Jul 2017, at 08:10, Owen DeLong wrote: >> >> >> >> However, I am certain you are unlikely to share my perspective as you are >> almost certainly allied with this group of ill-behaved malcontents. >> >> >> >> ??? >> >> I'm allied with the Afrinic community whichever name one might choose to >> give the community and membership works well with me. >> >> >> >> >> >> Owen >> >> >> >> On Jun 5, 2017, at 19:13 , Badru Ntege >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Ali >> >> >> >> Thanks for highlighting the issues bellow. Some board members have >> claimed championing transparency but I think we all need to have the same >> definition of the word. >> >> >> >> The issue of publishing the minutes was a community mandate to the board >> not a board initiative. I also like the issue on declaring interest. >> >> >> >> However the community is not blind and eventually the truth comes out as >> we saw in Nairobi where the community spoke resoundingly in both ASO and >> board elections. >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On 5 Jun 2017, at 12:39, Ali Hussein wrote: >> >> Mark and all >> >> >> >> Let's raise the bar on transparency and proper reporting is super >> critical. >> >> >> >> For example a quick perusal of the Afrinic Website tells me that:- >> >> >> >> 1. The last minutes posted were in February this year. I see there was >> another Board meeting in April which has no minutes posted yet. Can we try >> and ensure that board minutes are available for circulation online within 2 >> weeks of the meeting being held? >> >> >> >> 2. It is common best practice for Board members to declare their >> interests (if any) before any board meeting and these to be duly recorded >> in the minutes. This will go a long way in enhancing the transparency >> conversation. >> >> >> >> 3. I also note that in the February Board minutes that agenda Item No. 5 >> on Committees there are no committee reports for Audit and Remuneration. >> Also no other board committee reports have been presented. >> >> Question:- why are there no reports on the Audit and Remuneration reports >> committees? Is this an oversight or were they simply not ready? Can the >> Board consider making the other committee reports available to the >> community? >> >> >> >> 4. It is now also standard for organizations to publish a Sustainability >> Report. Most public for profit companies in Kenya now publish a >> sustainability report. This is even more critical in an Organisation like >> Afrinic. To give us a sample of what this may look like please see >> Safaricom's 2016 Sustainability Report below:- >> >> >> >> https://www.safaricom.co.ke/images/Downloads/Resources_Downl >> oads/sustainabilityreport_2016.pdf >> >> >> >> *Ali Hussein* >> >> *Principal* >> >> *Hussein & Associates* >> >> +254 0713 601113 <+254%20713%20601113> >> >> >> >> Twitter: @AliHKassim >> >> Skype: abu-jomo >> >> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim >> >> >> >> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a >> habit." ~ Aristotle >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> On 5 Jun 2017, at 11:37 AM, Mark Elkins wrote: >> >> I agree with you Ali. When Andrew first campaigned to be a Board member, >> one of his goals was increased transparency. I believe that he has helped, >> with the rest of the Board, achieve this. Transparency though is an ongoing >> process and its a pity that Andrew was not re-elected to continue assisting >> in that process. >> >> Regarding Andrews points: >> >> a) Travel in Africa is not cheap. Rather than just a single line for >> travel, I'd like to see it a bit more broken up though, categorised >> something like; >> i) Training sessions 10, people 20, cost $10,000 >> ii) Meetings 2, people 40, cost $20,000 >> iii) Board Travel 8, trips 32, cost $20,000 >> >> (or something like that) >> >> b - d) Again, I'd like to see a bit more break down, especially in the >> case of unaudited organisations. On d), the ASO/NRO fees are proportionally >> paid by RIRs. AfriNIC does pay the lowest proportion. >> >> e) I think the moratorium on Business class travel should be maintained, >> but have the option to upgrade their flights at their expense. When flying >> for AfriNIC, I was given a Priority Pass card. That privilege should stay >> to give people access to lounges. I'm happy the CEO flies business (at his >> discretion). If it was a long flight (ARIN, USA) and overnight and that >> Board member is the only AfriNIC representative and was presenting the >> "AfriNIC" slides, let them fly business. I did that once (but travelled >> economy). >> >> >> >> On 05/06/2017 08:21, Ali Hussein wrote: >> >> Andrew >> >> >> >> You raise pertinent and important issues. >> >> >> >> The rule of thumb for any public organization is that Transparency trumps >> (no pun intended) everything else. >> >> >> >> If I were asked and was a member of the Board, I'd advocate for FULL >> disclosure on financial and operational matters. How money was spent, how >> much, what was the impact, who received it etc. That in my humble opinion >> is the best policy. Let us err on the side of too much information as >> opposed to too little information. >> >> *Ali Hussein* >> >> *Principal* >> >> *Hussein & Associates* >> >> +254 0713 601113 <+254%20713%20601113> >> >> >> >> Twitter: @AliHKassim >> >> Skype: abu-jomo >> >> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim >> >> >> >> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a >> habit." ~ Aristotle >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> On 5 Jun 2017, at 8:42 AM, Andrew Alston >> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> >> >> So ? I want to open a bit of a discussion about transparency, >> specifically, financial transparency. >> >> >> >> In order to get this started ? let me ask a few questions of all of you ? >> >> >> >> While we talk about transparency and how it is required ? can we analyze >> for a moment as to the level of transparency we want. So, to kick this >> discussion off, let me start by asking some basic questions that we can use >> as the starting point for this discussion. >> >> >> >> a.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as >> regards how the money we pay towards IP resources is spent. Is it >> sufficient to show an aggregated line item that refers to travel expenses >> for example, or do we want to see some kind of a breakdown on what that >> money is being spent on (considering that travel makes up 10% of the total >> revenue) >> >> b.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as >> members as regards other large scale line items ? specifically ? we spend >> hundreds of thousands each year on meeting expenses ? should we be asking >> for a breakdown on what those meeting expenses are ? or are we happy with >> the organization spending that kind of money under a single large line item. >> >> c.) When AfriNIC is giving money to other organizations for >> sponsorship ? what level of transparency and accountability should be >> required from those organizations. Is it acceptable that AFRINIC makes a >> decision to give money to organizations that have no formal incorporation, >> no audited financial statements and no board of their own, or should >> AFRINIC be scrutinizing those that they give money to far more closely, and >> asking for the same level of transparency from those that they give money >> to that we require from them. >> >> d.) When AFRINIC is funding organizations such as the ASO/NRO ? how >> much transparency should be supplied back to the members about how that >> money is being spent and what that funding is actually being used for. >> >> e.) When AFRINIC is funding board travel to meetings around the world >> ? should board members be able to attend these conferences without ever >> supplying reports about what was accomplished at said meetings and what the >> purpose of the expenditure was, or are we prepared to accept that these >> meetings must be useful without further questions. >> >> >> >> Remember, every cent spent by AfriNIC can have an impact on our fees, and >> impacts the bottom line of the company. Over the last 3 years, we have >> come a long way to stabilizing the company and its financial position, but >> in order to maintain that, we probably need to discuss openly as a >> community about the level of transparency we want into those finances and >> then once we as a community come to consensus, we can request the board >> supply the transparency we agree is necessary. But let us have an open and >> cordial discussion so that we get to the right point. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Andrew >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa >> >> mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 <+27%2012%20807%200590> Cell: +27.826010496 <+27%2082%20601%200496> >> >> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss >> >> > > > -- > Borg le Chevalier > ___________________________________ > "Common sense is what tells us the world is flat" > > -- Borg le Chevalier ___________________________________ "Common sense is what tells us the world is flat" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Mon Jul 17 13:58:10 2017 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:58:10 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency In-Reply-To: References: <16074c5c-c827-c84a-60c0-0e3bcdff30b4@posix.co.za> <83171576-2F72-4762-A864-A352BB516A84@delong.com> <7B15AB8F-2FF6-42C8-9EAB-AF7D190A19C6@nftconsult.com> <26046648-3CA9-48C9-BE02-E4D53E982F4C@nftconsult.com> <73A9676F-280E-446A-98B2-64395445F32D@nftconsult.com> Message-ID: <9E660828-394A-4814-B37F-341D821A8C95@liquidtelecom.com> Chevalier, Have Badru and I worked on anything together ? the answer is ? not that I can remember ? and I believe that is, for good or ill, we have fundamentally different ideologies and believes about what is in the best interests of this industry and this community. That is not to say that either of us is correct, but that our view points are polar opposites. Individually though, I think there has been much that has been worked on. To this day I believe that the academic policy that was proposed was for the good of this community. I also stand by the fact that the discussion generated by the anti-shutdown proposal was necessary and pertinent and that the philosophies under which said proposal was written were with good intentions and for the general good of the community (especially with the authors open admission that the proposal was flawed and was designed to create discussion to facilitate finding the right solution to a real problem, with the full input of the community once we had created the debate). Yes, sometimes the language may seem antagonistic, but I also think that there is a place for total honesty and bluntness. Sometimes when you strongly believe that an idea is damaging and outright dangerous, that must be communicated in no uncertain terms. This also stems from individuals who attempt to manipulate words to change their meetings ? this is far harder to do with someone is totally forthright. Yes, that approach is not to everyone?s liking, but then again, what approach is? To be completely frank, policies on this list can have a dramatic effect on the functioning of businesses and companies on this continent. Businesses that employ tens of thousands of people collectively, and have hundreds of millions of dollars invested in them. When policies and disagreements start affecting those businesses, especially in a negative way, there is no way that we can expect things to be entirely harmonious, because people on this list will attempt to protect their companies, their employees, their interests ? and hence, while we seek consensus, we have to openly acknowledge that in these days of the last of the resources, there will be conflict ? the trick is how we deal with said conflict, and hiding our heads in the sand is not the way to deal with it. We also need to acknowledge that in every negotiation, which is what we are effectively engaging in when we debate policy, that there will be hard lines, that people will not move on. Consensus happens when agreement is found without crossing one of those hard lines ? if however, a policy crosses a hard line, there will be no consensus ? and that is also ok ? not every policy NEEDS consensus ? this is why the process exists, so that some policies can survive, and some can die if they are unacceptable. Yes ? I realize what I am saying above may be seen as harsh, and may result in more flaming, but, it is what I truly believe. Andrew From: Chevalier du Borg Date: Monday, 17 July 2017 at 20:45 To: Badru Ntege Cc: Andrew Alston , "community-discuss at afrinic.net" Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency 2017-07-17 15:21 GMT+04:00 Badru Ntege >: @Chevailer On 17 Jul 2017, at 8:08 am, Chevalier du Borg > wrote: @Andrew: I have became very suspicious of anyting that pass for "research". Good research start with clear hypothesis. So far I don't see any as well as clear methodologie of how you will proof or disproof hypothesis. 2017-07-14 12:25 GMT+04:00 Badru Ntege >: So I'm curious how this will contribute to the achievement of AfriNICs mission statement. By debunk "Alternative Realities" and "Alternative Facts". That always a good thing. True FACT might not matter to this community. But they will be useful to future generation reading this list As for stat: I will like to see stat that show Badru and Andrew agree on ANYTHING and vice versa. It just is not possible that EVERYTHING one say is bad or damaging or unhelpful. You need only need to look at the thread there are times when we might be saying the same thing but using different language. But the kind of language you two tend to use completely kill any implied agreement. I am yet to see one instance of constructive thing that you two work on for the benefit of this community. I also think we both agree on the importance of AfriNIC and that alone encompasses many aspects of how the entire bottom process works. That apply to everyone on this list, including reason that are self-serving. Or even the internet community in general. I would rather prefer to see your energys directed in an additive activity It will really help this community if you Badru can state 3 good thing Andrew has ever done for this community and vice versa. Asking for only 3 would be short changing Andrew. I actually believe he has many positive aspects. That is a non-answer. Seems like 99% of both of your communication at each other are antagonist and hostile. As ex board members, as leader of this community, it will help us heal and be respectful if you both show less bitterness, and mutuelle respect. But I also believe we all through our contributions and continuos dialogue serve the community so would be wrong to try and single out individuals. That correct, I single you two out because the big majorite of your mails to/about each other are hostile, so much they drown any constructiveness you may be trying to build. Because someone's contribution drives one to respond does not mean that one is against the Contributor Ordinaryly, yes. but there must be balance in attack vs affirmation. I see 99% attack and I can not even remember affirmation. I want us to focus on the content of the discussion and not the author. one thing I've learn on this list. AUTHOR matter more than content. Some things must always be attacked by Mr Y if Mr X says them. Sent from my iPhone On 14 Jul 2017, at 10:22, Andrew Alston > wrote: Having read all of this, I would like to start a bit of a research project in my spare (albeit limited) time ? so here is what I plan to do. I want to analyse every single email across the various lists going back 6 years ? in an attempt to identify the factions that exists (as has been stated at all 3 of the last 3 meetings, there is a definite sense of factionalism within the AfriNIC community, and that observation has been made at the microphone by multiple people) Then, let us identify 1. When these factions arose and why 2. Who are the people who are leading these factions Then ? once that information has been gathered in as objective fashion as possible, through looking at the emails and the responses, the substantiation behind those responses, looking at the videos of the PDP meeting and the questions at the microphone and the responses to follow-ups etc, we can then look at potentially finding a way to resolve the divides, potentially even by putting the leaders of said factions in the same room and getting them to work out the issues, so that we can get back to a point where we are discussing based on policy, based on content, and based on issues that are substantive, rather than from a geographic, linguistic or other perspective. Now ? such a complete research project if it is to be done properly, is immensely time consuming due to the volume of material to go through, and so, I?d like to invite volunteers who would like to assist in this project. This also helps to mitigate the risk that the report that comes out of this will be in any way biased, since those working on it are volunteers from across the continent. Please email me off list if you?d be willing to assist. Thanks Andrew From: Badru Ntege [mailto:badru.ntege at nftconsult.com] Sent: 14 July 2017 10:15 To: Owen DeLong > Cc: community-discuss at afrinic.net Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Questions about transparency Sent from my iPhone On 13 Jul 2017, at 08:10, Owen DeLong > wrote: However, I am certain you are unlikely to share my perspective as you are almost certainly allied with this group of ill-behaved malcontents. ??? I'm allied with the Afrinic community whichever name one might choose to give the community and membership works well with me. Owen On Jun 5, 2017, at 19:13 , Badru Ntege > wrote: Ali Thanks for highlighting the issues bellow. Some board members have claimed championing transparency but I think we all need to have the same definition of the word. The issue of publishing the minutes was a community mandate to the board not a board initiative. I also like the issue on declaring interest. However the community is not blind and eventually the truth comes out as we saw in Nairobi where the community spoke resoundingly in both ASO and board elections. Regards Sent from my iPhone On 5 Jun 2017, at 12:39, Ali Hussein > wrote: Mark and all Let's raise the bar on transparency and proper reporting is super critical. For example a quick perusal of the Afrinic Website tells me that:- 1. The last minutes posted were in February this year. I see there was another Board meeting in April which has no minutes posted yet. Can we try and ensure that board minutes are available for circulation online within 2 weeks of the meeting being held? 2. It is common best practice for Board members to declare their interests (if any) before any board meeting and these to be duly recorded in the minutes. This will go a long way in enhancing the transparency conversation. 3. I also note that in the February Board minutes that agenda Item No. 5 on Committees there are no committee reports for Audit and Remuneration. Also no other board committee reports have been presented. Question:- why are there no reports on the Audit and Remuneration reports committees? Is this an oversight or were they simply not ready? Can the Board consider making the other committee reports available to the community? 4. It is now also standard for organizations to publish a Sustainability Report. Most public for profit companies in Kenya now publish a sustainability report. This is even more critical in an Organisation like Afrinic. To give us a sample of what this may look like please see Safaricom's 2016 Sustainability Report below:- https://www.safaricom.co.ke/images/Downloads/Resources_Downloads/sustainabilityreport_2016.pdf Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle Sent from my iPad On 5 Jun 2017, at 11:37 AM, Mark Elkins > wrote: I agree with you Ali. When Andrew first campaigned to be a Board member, one of his goals was increased transparency. I believe that he has helped, with the rest of the Board, achieve this. Transparency though is an ongoing process and its a pity that Andrew was not re-elected to continue assisting in that process. Regarding Andrews points: a) Travel in Africa is not cheap. Rather than just a single line for travel, I'd like to see it a bit more broken up though, categorised something like; i) Training sessions 10, people 20, cost $10,000 ii) Meetings 2, people 40, cost $20,000 iii) Board Travel 8, trips 32, cost $20,000 (or something like that) b - d) Again, I'd like to see a bit more break down, especially in the case of unaudited organisations. On d), the ASO/NRO fees are proportionally paid by RIRs. AfriNIC does pay the lowest proportion. e) I think the moratorium on Business class travel should be maintained, but have the option to upgrade their flights at their expense. When flying for AfriNIC, I was given a Priority Pass card. That privilege should stay to give people access to lounges. I'm happy the CEO flies business (at his discretion). If it was a long flight (ARIN, USA) and overnight and that Board member is the only AfriNIC representative and was presenting the "AfriNIC" slides, let them fly business. I did that once (but travelled economy). On 05/06/2017 08:21, Ali Hussein wrote: Andrew You raise pertinent and important issues. The rule of thumb for any public organization is that Transparency trumps (no pun intended) everything else. If I were asked and was a member of the Board, I'd advocate for FULL disclosure on financial and operational matters. How money was spent, how much, what was the impact, who received it etc. That in my humble opinion is the best policy. Let us err on the side of too much information as opposed to too little information. Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle Sent from my iPad On 5 Jun 2017, at 8:42 AM, Andrew Alston > wrote: Hi All, So ? I want to open a bit of a discussion about transparency, specifically, financial transparency. In order to get this started ? let me ask a few questions of all of you ? While we talk about transparency and how it is required ? can we analyze for a moment as to the level of transparency we want. So, to kick this discussion off, let me start by asking some basic questions that we can use as the starting point for this discussion. a.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as regards how the money we pay towards IP resources is spent. Is it sufficient to show an aggregated line item that refers to travel expenses for example, or do we want to see some kind of a breakdown on what that money is being spent on (considering that travel makes up 10% of the total revenue) b.) How much detail should the board and AfriNIC be supplying us as members as regards other large scale line items ? specifically ? we spend hundreds of thousands each year on meeting expenses ? should we be asking for a breakdown on what those meeting expenses are ? or are we happy with the organization spending that kind of money under a single large line item. c.) When AfriNIC is giving money to other organizations for sponsorship ? what level of transparency and accountability should be required from those organizations. Is it acceptable that AFRINIC makes a decision to give money to organizations that have no formal incorporation, no audited financial statements and no board of their own, or should AFRINIC be scrutinizing those that they give money to far more closely, and asking for the same level of transparency from those that they give money to that we require from them. d.) When AFRINIC is funding organizations such as the ASO/NRO ? how much transparency should be supplied back to the members about how that money is being spent and what that funding is actually being used for. e.) When AFRINIC is funding board travel to meetings around the world ? should board members be able to attend these conferences without ever supplying reports about what was accomplished at said meetings and what the purpose of the expenditure was, or are we prepared to accept that these meetings must be useful without further questions. Remember, every cent spent by AfriNIC can have an impact on our fees, and impacts the bottom line of the company. Over the last 3 years, we have come a long way to stabilizing the company and its financial position, but in order to maintain that, we probably need to discuss openly as a community about the level of transparency we want into those finances and then once we as a community come to consensus, we can request the board supply the transparency we agree is necessary. But let us have an open and cordial discussion so that we get to the right point. Thanks Andrew _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -- Borg le Chevalier ___________________________________ "Common sense is what tells us the world is flat" -- Borg le Chevalier ___________________________________ "Common sense is what tells us the world is flat" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mark.tinka at seacom.mu Mon Jul 17 21:40:35 2017 From: mark.tinka at seacom.mu (Mark Tinka) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 23:40:35 +0200 Subject: [Community-Discuss] SAFNOG-3: Registration Now Open! Message-ID: <654029c0-a9cf-8561-5441-395360781285@seacom.mu> Hello all. It gives me great pleasure to announce that the SAFNOG-3 Registration is now open! Please note that registration for SAFNOG-3 is free of charge. I'd like to extend my thanks to the SAFNOG and iWeek teams for making this possible for our community. You may register your attendance at the link below: http://safnog.org/ When you begin to input your registration details into the system, you will notice a drop-down menu called "Session Interest". Please select the "SAFNOG-3 (Tuesday and Wednesday)" option to confirm your registration to the SAFNOG-3 meeting. We look forward to seeing you in Durban. Cheers, Mark Tinka On Behalf of the SAFNOG Management Committee From madomey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 18 19:18:46 2017 From: madomey at hotmail.com (Marcus K. G. Adomey) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 19:18:46 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... In-Reply-To: References: , <9C582B9D-653B-4ECE-B8EC-66D52D1B8A04@steffann.nl>, , Message-ID: Hi Andrew, Whenever I read in your emails that you are the fighting for transparency and accountability, I smile because it is obvious that they are empty words to you and you use them for electoral purposes. You don't mean them deep from within your heart. How can you tell me that you want to ensure that there is transparency and accountability on how money are spent when you are fighting against the transparency and accountability on the distribution and use of the resources that generated those monies. Your stand on the Review Policy is one of the instances. Honestly, your total transparency and accountability is not even partial but rather mischievous. The election process for AfriNIC board membership has just ended. A new one has not yet started, so spare us with the demagogic use of ?transparency and accountability?. Cheers Marcus ________________________________ From: Andrew Alston Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 6:40:44 AM To: Marcus K. G. Adomey Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... I realized after it was pointed out that this had not gone to the list - so re-sending Andrew Get Outlook for iOS _____________________________ From: Andrew Alston > Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 08:08 Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... To: Sander Steffann >, Marcus K. G. Adomey > Markus - You say that I am in a different orbit - so let me state what orbit I am in - I want total transparency - both on governance and financial issues I want to know how the money we as members is being spent and that it is well spent and justified - particularly considering that for large members the fees as in excess of 20 times the costs paid by RIPE members I want to be assured if our elected representatives are traveling on our dime - that the travel is justified and in the benefits of the members the organization is meant to serve I want to be assured that the board and the executive are at all times adhearing to the bylaws which we, as members, approved I want to be assured that the company operates to the letter of the law and to be assured that the actions they take do not create legal risk which may threaten the organization I want to ensure that the policies of the organization actually contribute to the growth of internet penetration on the continent, and do not merely serve to protect isps, but actually serve the general population of our continent. I want to ensure that the company is delivering on its mandate as clearly defined in section 3 of the bylaws. That my friend - is my orbit - so - if we are in different orbits - please - tell me yours and how it conflicts with the above - explain it to me - after all - do we not operate on a principal that dialog solves problems and builds consensus? Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Wed Jul 19 01:26:23 2017 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 01:26:23 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... In-Reply-To: References: <9C582B9D-653B-4ECE-B8EC-66D52D1B8A04@steffann.nl> Message-ID: <42881E6E-2A44-46B4-9F11-88AB85F4A8B7@liquidtelecom.com> Marcus, Let me state this plainly and categorically ? at this point ? I have *NO* plans to run for re-election to the AFRINIC board, and I am here, publically committing, that I will not run again next year (or the year after for that matter), beyond that, who knows, time changes ? but believe not a word I say, then at least believe this ? I have zero desire to return to the board at this point in my life ? since I believe that the questions that need to be asked at this point are better articulated from the floor and being on said board would merely constrain my ability to ask the questions I need answered and push for the answers I believe this community needs. Andrew From: "Marcus K. G. Adomey" Date: Wednesday, 19 July 2017 at 03:18 To: Andrew Alston Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... Hi Andrew, Whenever I read in your emails that you are the fighting for transparency and accountability, I smile because it is obvious that they are empty words to you and you use them for electoral purposes. You don't mean them deep from within your heart. How can you tell me that you want to ensure that there is transparency and accountability on how money are spent when you are fighting against the transparency and accountability on the distribution and use of the resources that generated those monies. Your stand on the Review Policy is one of the instances. Honestly, your total transparency and accountability is not even partial but rather mischievous. The election process for AfriNIC board membership has just ended. A new one has not yet started, so spare us with the demagogic use of ?transparency and accountability?. Cheers Marcus ________________________________ From: Andrew Alston Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 6:40:44 AM To: Marcus K. G. Adomey Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... I realized after it was pointed out that this had not gone to the list - so re-sending Andrew Get Outlook for iOS _____________________________ From: Andrew Alston > Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 08:08 Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... To: Sander Steffann >, Marcus K. G. Adomey > Markus - You say that I am in a different orbit - so let me state what orbit I am in - I want total transparency - both on governance and financial issues I want to know how the money we as members is being spent and that it is well spent and justified - particularly considering that for large members the fees as in excess of 20 times the costs paid by RIPE members I want to be assured if our elected representatives are traveling on our dime - that the travel is justified and in the benefits of the members the organization is meant to serve I want to be assured that the board and the executive are at all times adhearing to the bylaws which we, as members, approved I want to be assured that the company operates to the letter of the law and to be assured that the actions they take do not create legal risk which may threaten the organization I want to ensure that the policies of the organization actually contribute to the growth of internet penetration on the continent, and do not merely serve to protect isps, but actually serve the general population of our continent. I want to ensure that the company is delivering on its mandate as clearly defined in section 3 of the bylaws. That my friend - is my orbit - so - if we are in different orbits - please - tell me yours and how it conflicts with the above - explain it to me - after all - do we not operate on a principal that dialog solves problems and builds consensus? Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aalain at trstech.net Fri Jul 21 17:28:30 2017 From: aalain at trstech.net (ALAIN AINA) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 17:28:30 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... In-Reply-To: References: <9C582B9D-653B-4ECE-B8EC-66D52D1B8A04@steffann.nl> Message-ID: <9DD7EF4D-A335-4161-AE84-83B5982C5273@trstech.net> Andrew, Not so easy to forget. Even if you do some of us do remember and the archives are available: a) There was a Mr Alston before board mandate b)There was a Mr Alston 2014 -2017 c) there is a Mr. Alston since AIS2017 The a) was promising, full of energy, Mr Solution to everything, the anti-RPKI, etc?. and b) came in and : * Promoted AFRINIC governance as Top-Down * Promoted Trust-only, no-accontabiliy and no-transparency * Company act evangelist * Promoted AFRINIC as 8+1 people(registered members) private company. Other members have limited powers, Community has none * Opposed most of the community proposals to improve accountability during the last accountability review * Supported adopting changes to bylaws for accountability review by vote on multiple resolutions instead of working out a coherent consensual draft bylaws. * Opposed Board member recall by members and community * Claimed to have rescued AFRINIC * Authored some controversial policy proposals * etc.. And now, welcome c) who seem confused and lost: *Dealing with simple community member position subject to past board member's NDA and reserve obligations * Suffering from the Top-down governance enjoyed during b) *Want all the powers to members and even Community * Want 300% transparency *Want 400% accountability * Want PDP appeal procedure put in place * Want a ASO members recall procedure * Want Mgmt audits published. * Describe the rescued AFRINIC as the financially weakest RIR * Concerned by the membership fees compared to RIPE NCC * Etc?. I could easily understand your status and confusion. Welcome back inside the community. Hope you can manage. ?Alain > On 12 Jul 2017, at 06:40, Andrew Alston wrote: > > I realized after it was pointed out that this had not gone to the list - so re-sending > > Andrew > > Get Outlook for iOS > _____________________________ > From: Andrew Alston > > Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 08:08 > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... > To: Sander Steffann >, Marcus K. G. Adomey > > > > Markus - > > You say that I am in a different orbit - so let me state what orbit I am in - > > I want total transparency - both on governance and financial issues > I want to know how the money we as members is being spent and that it is well spent and justified - particularly considering that for large members the fees as in excess of 20 times the costs paid by RIPE members > I want to be assured if our elected representatives are traveling on our dime - that the travel is justified and in the benefits of the members the organization is meant to serve > I want to be assured that the board and the executive are at all times adhearing to the bylaws which we, as members, approved > I want to be assured that the company operates to the letter of the law and to be assured that the actions they take do not create legal risk which may threaten the organization > I want to ensure that the policies of the organization actually contribute to the growth of internet penetration on the continent, and do not merely serve to protect isps, but actually serve the general population of our continent. > I want to ensure that the company is delivering on its mandate as clearly defined in section 3 of the bylaws. > > That my friend - is my orbit - so - if we are in different orbits - please - tell me yours and how it conflicts with the above - explain it to me - after all - do we not operate on a principal that dialog solves problems and builds consensus? > > Andrew > > Get Outlook for iOS > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amelnaud at gmail.com Fri Jul 21 17:52:21 2017 From: amelnaud at gmail.com (Arnaud AMELINA) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 17:52:21 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... In-Reply-To: <9DD7EF4D-A335-4161-AE84-83B5982C5273@trstech.net> References: <9C582B9D-653B-4ECE-B8EC-66D52D1B8A04@steffann.nl> <9DD7EF4D-A335-4161-AE84-83B5982C5273@trstech.net> Message-ID: +1000.... Le 21 juil. 2017 17:29, "ALAIN AINA" a ?crit : > > Andrew, > > Not so easy to forget. Even if you do some of us do remember and the > archives are available: > > a) There was a Mr Alston before board mandate > b)There was a Mr Alston 2014 -2017 > c) there is a Mr. Alston since AIS2017 > > The a) was promising, full of energy, Mr Solution to everything, the > anti-RPKI, etc?. > > and b) came in and : > > * Promoted AFRINIC governance as Top-Down > * Promoted Trust-only, no-accontabiliy and no-transparency > * Company act evangelist > * Promoted AFRINIC as 8+1 people(registered members) private company. > Other members have limited powers, Community has none > * Opposed most of the community proposals to improve accountability during > the last accountability review > * Supported adopting changes to bylaws for accountability review by vote > on multiple resolutions instead of working out a coherent consensual > draft bylaws. > * Opposed Board member recall by members and community > * Claimed to have rescued AFRINIC > * Authored some controversial policy proposals > * etc.. > > And now, welcome c) who seem confused and lost: > > *Dealing with simple community member position subject to past board > member's NDA and reserve obligations > * Suffering from the Top-down governance enjoyed during b) > *Want all the powers to members and even Community > * Want 300% transparency > *Want 400% accountability > * Want PDP appeal procedure put in place > * Want a ASO members recall procedure > * Want Mgmt audits published. > * Describe the rescued AFRINIC as the financially weakest RIR > * Concerned by the membership fees compared to RIPE NCC > * Etc?. > > I could easily understand your status and confusion. Welcome back inside > the community. Hope you can manage. > > ?Alain > > > On 12 Jul 2017, at 06:40, Andrew Alston > wrote: > > I realized after it was pointed out that this had not gone to the list - > so re-sending > > Andrew > > Get Outlook for iOS > _____________________________ > From: Andrew Alston > Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 08:08 > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... > To: Sander Steffann , Marcus K. G. Adomey < > madomey at hotmail.com> > > > Markus - > > You say that I am in a different orbit - so let me state what orbit I am > in - > > I want total transparency - both on governance and financial issues > I want to know how the money we as members is being spent and that it is > well spent and justified - particularly considering that for large members > the fees as in excess of 20 times the costs paid by RIPE members > I want to be assured if our elected representatives are traveling on our > dime - that the travel is justified and in the benefits of the members the > organization is meant to serve > I want to be assured that the board and the executive are at all times > adhearing to the bylaws which we, as members, approved > I want to be assured that the company operates to the letter of the law > and to be assured that the actions they take do not create legal risk which > may threaten the organization > I want to ensure that the policies of the organization actually contribute > to the growth of internet penetration on the continent, and do not merely > serve to protect isps, but actually serve the general population of our > continent. > I want to ensure that the company is delivering on its mandate as clearly > defined in section 3 of the bylaws. > > That my friend - is my orbit - so - if we are in different orbits - please > - tell me yours and how it conflicts with the above - explain it to me - > after all - do we not operate on a principal that dialog solves problems > and builds consensus? > > Andrew > > Get Outlook for iOS > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bukkiepharworley at gmail.com Fri Jul 21 18:17:58 2017 From: bukkiepharworley at gmail.com (Bukola Fawole) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 19:17:58 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... In-Reply-To: <9DD7EF4D-A335-4161-AE84-83B5982C5273@trstech.net> References: <9C582B9D-653B-4ECE-B8EC-66D52D1B8A04@steffann.nl> <9DD7EF4D-A335-4161-AE84-83B5982C5273@trstech.net> Message-ID: +1000000 On Jul 21, 2017 6:29 PM, "ALAIN AINA" wrote: > > Andrew, > > Not so easy to forget. Even if you do some of us do remember and the > archives are available: > > a) There was a Mr Alston before board mandate > b)There was a Mr Alston 2014 -2017 > c) there is a Mr. Alston since AIS2017 > > The a) was promising, full of energy, Mr Solution to everything, the > anti-RPKI, etc?. > > and b) came in and : > > * Promoted AFRINIC governance as Top-Down > * Promoted Trust-only, no-accontabiliy and no-transparency > * Company act evangelist > * Promoted AFRINIC as 8+1 people(registered members) private company. > Other members have limited powers, Community has none > * Opposed most of the community proposals to improve accountability during > the last accountability review > * Supported adopting changes to bylaws for accountability review by vote > on multiple resolutions instead of working out a coherent consensual > draft bylaws. > * Opposed Board member recall by members and community > * Claimed to have rescued AFRINIC > * Authored some controversial policy proposals > * etc.. > > And now, welcome c) who seem confused and lost: > > *Dealing with simple community member position subject to past board > member's NDA and reserve obligations > * Suffering from the Top-down governance enjoyed during b) > *Want all the powers to members and even Community > * Want 300% transparency > *Want 400% accountability > * Want PDP appeal procedure put in place > * Want a ASO members recall procedure > * Want Mgmt audits published. > * Describe the rescued AFRINIC as the financially weakest RIR > * Concerned by the membership fees compared to RIPE NCC > * Etc?. > > I could easily understand your status and confusion. Welcome back inside > the community. Hope you can manage. > > ?Alain > > > On 12 Jul 2017, at 06:40, Andrew Alston > wrote: > > I realized after it was pointed out that this had not gone to the list - > so re-sending > > Andrew > > Get Outlook for iOS > _____________________________ > From: Andrew Alston > Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 08:08 > Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... > To: Sander Steffann , Marcus K. G. Adomey < > madomey at hotmail.com> > > > Markus - > > You say that I am in a different orbit - so let me state what orbit I am > in - > > I want total transparency - both on governance and financial issues > I want to know how the money we as members is being spent and that it is > well spent and justified - particularly considering that for large members > the fees as in excess of 20 times the costs paid by RIPE members > I want to be assured if our elected representatives are traveling on our > dime - that the travel is justified and in the benefits of the members the > organization is meant to serve > I want to be assured that the board and the executive are at all times > adhearing to the bylaws which we, as members, approved > I want to be assured that the company operates to the letter of the law > and to be assured that the actions they take do not create legal risk which > may threaten the organization > I want to ensure that the policies of the organization actually contribute > to the growth of internet penetration on the continent, and do not merely > serve to protect isps, but actually serve the general population of our > continent. > I want to ensure that the company is delivering on its mandate as clearly > defined in section 3 of the bylaws. > > That my friend - is my orbit - so - if we are in different orbits - please > - tell me yours and how it conflicts with the above - explain it to me - > after all - do we not operate on a principal that dialog solves problems > and builds consensus? > > Andrew > > Get Outlook for iOS > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Fri Jul 21 18:48:53 2017 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 18:48:53 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... In-Reply-To: <9DD7EF4D-A335-4161-AE84-83B5982C5273@trstech.net> References: <9C582B9D-653B-4ECE-B8EC-66D52D1B8A04@steffann.nl> <9DD7EF4D-A335-4161-AE84-83B5982C5273@trstech.net> Message-ID: Hi Alain, This email makes a lot of accusations ? and you?re free to do that ? but ? let?s work through each of them. Before I do that though ? I find it interesting ? when people don?t want to address current issues ? point at the past ? attack the person ? ignore the message. See this is what has been going on in AfriNIC for years ? we are not interested in the message - only in attacking the person to promote our own message ? and this ? is everything a community should not be. But, since you raised these issues ? let?s work through them for a second. The a) was promising, full of energy, Mr Solution to everything, the anti-RPKI, etc?. My anti-RPKI stance continues ? though it?s shifted slightly over the years ? see ? positions shift as we grow as people ? if a person never has positions that shift ? it shows the person has not grown, matured or anything else. Happy to have an RPKI debate with you though any time any place ? * Promoted AFRINIC governance as Top-Down Please justify this ? I invite you to examine the minutes during my tenue as board member ? because I can point to numerous entries in those minutes which will refute this ? but since you threw the accusation ? please ? substantiate it and let me rebut. I will not rebut baseless accusations that are non-substantiated ? because again ? this is a habit on these lists ? make an accusation and refuse to substantiate. It generates loads of emails ? and loads of hot air ? but never little that is productive. * Promoted Trust-only, no-accontabiliy and no-transparency See above comment * Company act evangelist No idea what you mean by this * Promoted AFRINIC as 8+1 people(registered members) private company. Other members have limited powers, Community has none Aaahh here you read me wrong ? Promote it as such? No ? state that legal reality that is the case? At times yes ? because fact is fact ? the community power is granted by the board ? it is not legally entrenched ? that is reality ? and I don?t shy away from reality. Obviously that is not always the case though. I must however point to the fact that I was very much a part of the board that drafted 20 special resolutions, a large portion of which were designed to give this community back far more power than they have. This community were the ones who turned around and voted down those resolutions and rejected that power. * Opposed most of the community proposals to improve accountability during the last accountability review I opposed the audit policy ? damn straight I did ? it was legally flawed and put the company in jeopardy, and the legal advisor confirmed everything that I had always said about that policy. I opposed placing the government committee above the board ? because legally that could not happen ? you cannot have people who hold the fiduciary responsibility while others hold the power to force them to violate said responsibility ? that won?t fly in any jurisdiction. I opposed the soft landing BIS policy ? because I believe that holding onto V4 assets is damaging to the continent since it does nothing to promote v6 deployment, deepens the digital divide and focuses the benefits to the ISP?s rather than the end users on the ground who need connectivity today. What else did I oppose? Please, substantiate your arguments, because baseless accusations aren?t worth anything. * Supported adopting changes to bylaws for accountability review by vote on multiple resolutions instead of working out a coherent consensual draft bylaws. Yes ? I did support the adopting of changes to the bylaws for accountability review ? because the accountability review was done after substantial review by external parties who had knowledge of the current bylaws and the legal framework. You cannot adjust legal documents without that fundamental understanding of what they must align to. And I point out ? the majority of those bylaw changes handed power back to the community ? this community chose to reject that power. Let us look at the bylaws that were rejected, I will focus on the ones that actually handed power back to this community. . a.) SR3 ? Which added the following paragraph: A Director whose tenure of office comes to an end, shall de facto cease to be a Registered Member and shall complete all the required formalities in compliance with the Act and/or the Bylaws to this effect. Effectively this leaves any director who leaves office as a registered member with all the power of a registered member ? and I?m shocked the community voted no to this ? because by doing so ? they announce that this is their will ? effectively that a director never returns his shareholdings and continues with the same power ? it is an extremely dangerous situation and is made infinitely more dangerous by the no vote ? (37 votes for, 41 against, only 47.44% support) b.) SR4 ? The resolution that stated that every member of the board should act in the best interests of AFRINIC regardless of regional affiliation ? voted down by the community ? basically stating that directors do NOT have to act in the best interests of the company ? but rather only their regions ? again ? a dangerous precedent to set (55 for, 21 against, failed by a small margin, but still failed) c.) SR6 ? Introduction of term limits for directors ? something I have always said I believed in and still do ? rejected by the community (35 for, 41 against, only supported by 46.05%) d.) SR7 ? Limit the number of directors that may work for the same organization ? voted down and rejected by the community ? despite loads of people screaming that it was necessary it only got 48.05% support (37 votes for to 40 against) e.) SR11 ? Remove the ability of the board to disapprove nominations for the board of directors ? this directly took power from the directors ? it only got 39.47% support (30 votes for, 46 against) f.) SR16 ? Give the community the power to recall a director ? again ? directly giving power to this community ? it got 53.21% support ? (58 for, 51 against) g.) SR20 ? Clarify the position on proxies to prevent proxy abuse ? 42.86% support ? (33 for, 44 against) Looking at these numbers ? it is farcical for this community to sit and scream about top down approach ? about accountability of board members ? about lack of transparency ? unyet, in 7 instances above, they outright rejected the very things they claimed they wanted. * Opposed Board member recall by members and community Incorrect ? On SR16 I actually voted in favor of it ? every vote I had was cast in favor of SR16, where as I chose to abstain from several others ? and the vote count as stated above, which you are free to verify, clearly demonstrates the extra votes in the mix. * Claimed to have rescued AFRINIC This is false ? please review the video of my election speech in Kenya ? where I specifically said ? I was a part of a collective board that did that ? need I point you to exact timing on the video? * Authored some controversial policy proposals Yes ? I authored policy proposals ? some of which were controversial ? I make zero apologies for this ? in the same way policies you have authored ? and still have your name on them ? are deeply controversial ? if they weren?t they would have been ratified by now. * etc.. And now, welcome c) who seem confused and lost: *Dealing with simple community member position subject to past board member's NDA and reserve obligations The NDA reservations are very specific ? I know what it says ? do you? I don?t need to ?get around it?, I will not violate it ? and I will operate within what it says. * Suffering from the Top-down governance enjoyed during b) I am not suffering from top-down governance enjoyed during b.) ? and in fact in many cases I fought against what you claim here ? but I do plan to push for still more transparency than we have ? though I stand by my stance that it has improved. *Want all the powers to members and even Community False ? because I know that is not possible ? I understand the legal structure of AFRINIC ? the power sits with the registered members ? that is not disputable ? and I don?t believe it can ever change. What I want is adherence to the NCCG and adherence to section 3 of the bylaws and the companies act ? and I challenge you to show an instance where I fought against any of those things. * Want 300% transparency Correct ? I do ? and I make no apologies for it *Want 400% accountability Again ? correct ? I want accountability ? and I was prepared to submit myself to being accountable as well. I point to when this community demanded a hearing for me ? which I agreed to ? and which was conducted ? despite there being zero evidence ? and a unanimous vote as per the minutes that I was innocent of the baseless accusations against me. * Want PDP appeal procedure put in place Again ? 100% I do ? because the PDP that was authored by a current board member mandates that it should exist ? and I openly admit that it was an oversight of mine that I didn?t pick it up when I was on the board ? had I seen it ? I would have insisted on it. * Want a ASO members recall procedure Again ? 100% I do ? and I stand by that ? because it is mandated by an MOU which was signed by the company. * Want Mgmt audits published. Again ? 100% I want that published ? and unfortunately ? the board has opted not to publish the documents which would better explain this stance ? never mind the actual audit reports themselves. So ? I make no apologies here. * Describe the rescued AFRINIC as the financially weakest RIR Again ? that is 100% true ? I did ? because it is objective fact ? and I am not an ostrich ? I do not live with my head in the sand and I believe that we have to live within our means ? not in a dream world that ends up back in the position we were in where we were flirting with outright bankruptcy ? as is clearly indicated in the financials which shows that a.) we had zero reserve b.) we were hemorrhaging money and making large scale losses. * Concerned by the membership fees compared to RIPE NCC Again ? 100% true ? and again ? I stand by that ? for sound business reason. When companies make decisions as to vendors or suppliers (which is what AFRINIC is), they will buy from where they get value. When fees are 20 times the fees charged by another RIR and the RIR charging 20 times the fees is not adding any additional benefit beyond their competition ? there is a problem ? and it may well explain the large number of north African RIR?s who are registering with RIPE even though they get such a limited amount of space. Please go and look at the RIPE database on the number of Tunisian organisations who are getting their space not from AFRINIC but from RIPE. This I attribute to the price differential ? which I argue ends up hurting AFRINIC. So finally alain, I am confused ? I am confused by the baseless accusations with zero substantiation ? I am confused that when the community wanted INDIVIDUALS gone ? they chose to attack specific areas ? but when those individuals went ? the attacks on the AREAS disappeared ? which proves that they were targeting individuals and not good corporate governance and not solid financial management and not transparency. I am confused that the community demanded that power be put in their hands ? and when it was offered on a platter turned and rejected it. I am confused at a community where a segment of the community chose to up and walk out of the room when election results did not go their way for multiple successive elections ? and the video footage will stand testament to what I am saying. I am confused at a community that sends people to the microphone with scraps of papers to state positions ? but when the same people who stand with those scraps of paper are called back to the microphone and questioned on their statements ? it becomes clear that they did not write what was on those scraps of paper nor did they fully understand what they were saying ? they were messengers ? and the message fell apart when questioned (Please see Pointe Noir video footage for clear evidence of this, and again in Botswana). Yes ? There is much that confuses me ? but I have always managed ? and will continue to do so. Andrew On 12 Jul 2017, at 06:40, Andrew Alston > wrote: I realized after it was pointed out that this had not gone to the list - so re-sending Andrew Get Outlook for iOS _____________________________ From: Andrew Alston > Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 08:08 Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... To: Sander Steffann >, Marcus K. G. Adomey > Markus - You say that I am in a different orbit - so let me state what orbit I am in - I want total transparency - both on governance and financial issues I want to know how the money we as members is being spent and that it is well spent and justified - particularly considering that for large members the fees as in excess of 20 times the costs paid by RIPE members I want to be assured if our elected representatives are traveling on our dime - that the travel is justified and in the benefits of the members the organization is meant to serve I want to be assured that the board and the executive are at all times adhearing to the bylaws which we, as members, approved I want to be assured that the company operates to the letter of the law and to be assured that the actions they take do not create legal risk which may threaten the organization I want to ensure that the policies of the organization actually contribute to the growth of internet penetration on the continent, and do not merely serve to protect isps, but actually serve the general population of our continent. I want to ensure that the company is delivering on its mandate as clearly defined in section 3 of the bylaws. That my friend - is my orbit - so - if we are in different orbits - please - tell me yours and how it conflicts with the above - explain it to me - after all - do we not operate on a principal that dialog solves problems and builds consensus? Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Fri Jul 21 18:51:05 2017 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 18:51:05 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... In-Reply-To: <9DD7EF4D-A335-4161-AE84-83B5982C5273@trstech.net> References: <9C582B9D-653B-4ECE-B8EC-66D52D1B8A04@steffann.nl> <9DD7EF4D-A335-4161-AE84-83B5982C5273@trstech.net> Message-ID: <8650C0C9-5168-4AE9-9005-9AD872CA6712@liquidtelecom.com> Oh, and I forgot to add, to all the statements I agreed with in the previous email about things that I did - +1, x 10000000 (since that seems to be the instruction given to others) Andrew From: ALAIN AINA Date: Saturday, 22 July 2017 at 01:28 To: General Discussions of AFRINIC Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... Andrew, Not so easy to forget. Even if you do some of us do remember and the archives are available: a) There was a Mr Alston before board mandate b)There was a Mr Alston 2014 -2017 c) there is a Mr. Alston since AIS2017 The a) was promising, full of energy, Mr Solution to everything, the anti-RPKI, etc?. and b) came in and : * Promoted AFRINIC governance as Top-Down * Promoted Trust-only, no-accontabiliy and no-transparency * Company act evangelist * Promoted AFRINIC as 8+1 people(registered members) private company. Other members have limited powers, Community has none * Opposed most of the community proposals to improve accountability during the last accountability review * Supported adopting changes to bylaws for accountability review by vote on multiple resolutions instead of working out a coherent consensual draft bylaws. * Opposed Board member recall by members and community * Claimed to have rescued AFRINIC * Authored some controversial policy proposals * etc.. And now, welcome c) who seem confused and lost: *Dealing with simple community member position subject to past board member's NDA and reserve obligations * Suffering from the Top-down governance enjoyed during b) *Want all the powers to members and even Community * Want 300% transparency *Want 400% accountability * Want PDP appeal procedure put in place * Want a ASO members recall procedure * Want Mgmt audits published. * Describe the rescued AFRINIC as the financially weakest RIR * Concerned by the membership fees compared to RIPE NCC * Etc?. I could easily understand your status and confusion. Welcome back inside the community. Hope you can manage. ?Alain On 12 Jul 2017, at 06:40, Andrew Alston > wrote: I realized after it was pointed out that this had not gone to the list - so re-sending Andrew Get Outlook for iOS _____________________________ From: Andrew Alston > Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 08:08 Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... To: Sander Steffann >, Marcus K. G. Adomey > Markus - You say that I am in a different orbit - so let me state what orbit I am in - I want total transparency - both on governance and financial issues I want to know how the money we as members is being spent and that it is well spent and justified - particularly considering that for large members the fees as in excess of 20 times the costs paid by RIPE members I want to be assured if our elected representatives are traveling on our dime - that the travel is justified and in the benefits of the members the organization is meant to serve I want to be assured that the board and the executive are at all times adhearing to the bylaws which we, as members, approved I want to be assured that the company operates to the letter of the law and to be assured that the actions they take do not create legal risk which may threaten the organization I want to ensure that the policies of the organization actually contribute to the growth of internet penetration on the continent, and do not merely serve to protect isps, but actually serve the general population of our continent. I want to ensure that the company is delivering on its mandate as clearly defined in section 3 of the bylaws. That my friend - is my orbit - so - if we are in different orbits - please - tell me yours and how it conflicts with the above - explain it to me - after all - do we not operate on a principal that dialog solves problems and builds consensus? Andrew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Community-Discuss mailing list Community-Discuss at afrinic.net https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Fri Jul 21 19:39:19 2017 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:39:19 -0700 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... In-Reply-To: <9DD7EF4D-A335-4161-AE84-83B5982C5273@trstech.net> References: <9C582B9D-653B-4ECE-B8EC-66D52D1B8A04@steffann.nl> <9DD7EF4D-A335-4161-AE84-83B5982C5273@trstech.net> Message-ID: <1BD5359C-88BA-4232-87F3-3BDAD6D71A52@delong.com> > On Jul 21, 2017, at 10:28 , ALAIN AINA wrote: > > > Andrew, > > Not so easy to forget. Even if you do some of us do remember and the archives are available: > > a) There was a Mr Alston before board mandate > b)There was a Mr Alston 2014 -2017 > c) there is a Mr. Alston since AIS2017 > > The a) was promising, full of energy, Mr Solution to everything, the anti-RPKI, etc?. > > and b) came in and : > > * Promoted AFRINIC governance as Top-Down Citation needed ? I didn?t see this during his term on the board. > * Promoted Trust-only, no-accontabiliy and no-transparency Citation needed ? I didn?t see this during his term on the board. > * Company act evangelist OK, I can sort of see this, but, the Maruitian Companies Act is the governing law under which AfriNIC operates. As such, compliance isn?t exactly optional, and, where AfriNIC conduct runs afoul of it, board members have an obligation to take corrective action. It is part of their fiduciary duty. > * Promoted AFRINIC as 8+1 people(registered members) private company. Other members have limited powers, Community has none I would argue that he stated this as a fact of how AfriNIC is currently organized rather than promoting or encouraging it. > * Opposed most of the community proposals to improve accountability during the last accountability review Most of these proposals didn?t actually improve accountability and were fundamentally flawed in meaningful ways. He was not alone in this opposition, a significant fraction of the community also opposed them. > * Supported adopting changes to bylaws for accountability review by vote on multiple resolutions instead of working out a coherent consensual draft bylaws. This is the mechanism by which this can be legitimately accomplished under the rules and laws applicable to the organization. You are criticizing him for following the process that is defined by law? Really? > * Opposed Board member recall by members and community Citation needed ? This does not match my recollection. > * Claimed to have rescued AFRINIC Given the financial state of AfriNIC at the time he joined the board vs. now, there is some legitimacy to this claim. I chalk this up to normal electoral hyperbole and little more. > * Authored some controversial policy proposals This is a criticism? How is this a bad thing? > * etc.. > > And now, welcome c) who seem confused and lost: > > *Dealing with simple community member position subject to past board member's NDA and reserve obligations Can you parse this for me? I don?t know what it is intended to say. > * Suffering from the Top-down governance enjoyed during b) Again, I?m not sure what you are trying to say here. > *Want all the powers to members and even Community I don?t see this being inconsistent with his prior positions. > * Want 300% transparency > *Want 400% accountability Now who is engaging in hyperbole? > * Want PDP appeal procedure put in place More accurately, wants board to follow the PDP section 3.5 requirements and create the required appeals committee. I don?t think this is a bad thing. > * Want a ASO members recall procedure Citation needed. > * Want Mgmt audits published. This is not new. This was being stated during what you refer to as a) and b). > * Describe the rescued AFRINIC as the financially weakest RIR Compare the published financials of the 5 RIRs and it is obvious that this is a simple statement of fact. AfriNIC is significantly stronger financially than it was when he took office. It is still the financially weakest of the 5 RIRs. I don?t understand why you think this is inconsistent? The facts prove out these statements. > * Concerned by the membership fees compared to RIPE NCC AfriNIC has the highest fees of the 5 RIRs. RIPE has the lowest. Anyone in AfriNIC not concerned by this in light of current circumstances is engaging in behavior often attributed to a well known large bird native to the continent. > * Etc?. > > I could easily understand your status and confusion. Welcome back inside the community. Hope you can manage. Did you really think that this largely unsubstantiated ad hominem attack was a good use of the community-discuss list? I have my share of issues with Mr. Alston and lord knows he is often his own worst enemy in many ways. Nonetheless, let?s attack his arguments on merit rather than attacking him with questionable allegations, innuendo, and ad hominem. Owen > > ?Alain > > >> On 12 Jul 2017, at 06:40, Andrew Alston > wrote: >> >> I realized after it was pointed out that this had not gone to the list - so re-sending >> >> Andrew >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> _____________________________ >> From: Andrew Alston > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 08:08 >> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Confusion... >> To: Sander Steffann >, Marcus K. G. Adomey > >> >> >> Markus - >> >> You say that I am in a different orbit - so let me state what orbit I am in - >> >> I want total transparency - both on governance and financial issues >> I want to know how the money we as members is being spent and that it is well spent and justified - particularly considering that for large members the fees as in excess of 20 times the costs paid by RIPE members >> I want to be assured if our elected representatives are traveling on our dime - that the travel is justified and in the benefits of the members the organization is meant to serve >> I want to be assured that the board and the executive are at all times adhearing to the bylaws which we, as members, approved >> I want to be assured that the company operates to the letter of the law and to be assured that the actions they take do not create legal risk which may threaten the organization >> I want to ensure that the policies of the organization actually contribute to the growth of internet penetration on the continent, and do not merely serve to protect isps, but actually serve the general population of our continent. >> I want to ensure that the company is delivering on its mandate as clearly defined in section 3 of the bylaws. >> >> That my friend - is my orbit - so - if we are in different orbits - please - tell me yours and how it conflicts with the above - explain it to me - after all - do we not operate on a principal that dialog solves problems and builds consensus? >> >> Andrew >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Community-Discuss mailing list >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Community-Discuss mailing list > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Sat Jul 22 05:11:23 2017 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 05:11:23 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] Outstanding Requests Message-ID: <24A489FD-5A3A-40CA-9378-CC546787D999@liquidtelecom.com> Dear Mr Folayan, Chair of the AfriNIC Board, Firstly, I acknowledge the time frames given on other issues raised on this list and I thank you for those ? I eagerly await those responses. Further to that ? there are several outstanding queries that have been raised that have either not been responded to or no time frames given, though this possibly my fault since maybe the requests were buried in other emails and not clearly stated ? so I?m putting these requests in point form as well. a.) Is the board prepared to publish minutes of the board sub-committee meetings in line with the NCCG recommendations b.) Is the board prepared to publish the full audit-co report which was referenced in various minutes c.) Is the board prepared to publish quarterly financial reports to the community so that all financial analysis does not have to be done immediately prior to an SGMM/AGMM d.) Is the board prepared to commit to providing this community with reports from any member of the board attending conferences on AFRINIC?s behalf as to what was done at the meeting and the advantage of having the board member there ? this is simply so that we know that members money that is spent on travel expenses is being spent in a justifiable manner. (As a note ? I am more than happy to provide this community with a full report from the RIPE trip that I took earlier this year that details exactly what was done there if so desired) e.) Can the board provide this community with an explanation as to the requirements for financial transparency for organizations that AFRINIC provides funds for f.) In the event that there are no requirements ? will the board be prepared to implement such requirements ? so that the community can be assured that money given to organizations is being used for correct purpose. g.) The board committed to a response on potential violations of section 143 of the companies act ? can we get a time frame as to when this response will be forthcoming. I thank you in advance for your anticipated response. Yours Sincerely Andrew Alston -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sfolayan at gmail.com Sat Jul 22 18:27:29 2017 From: sfolayan at gmail.com (Sunday Folayan) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 19:27:29 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Outstanding Requests In-Reply-To: <24A489FD-5A3A-40CA-9378-CC546787D999@liquidtelecom.com> References: <24A489FD-5A3A-40CA-9378-CC546787D999@liquidtelecom.com> Message-ID: <33a9f88a-7efc-33dc-085f-fed12aa03dfe@gmail.com> Dear Mr Alston, Thank you very much for your email and the requests therein. I shall consult with the Board and revert. I will get back to you with appropriate time lines, if applicable, within the next 90 days. Thanks. Sunday. On 22/07/2017 06:11, Andrew Alston wrote: > > Dear Mr Folayan, Chair of the AfriNIC Board, > > Firstly, I acknowledge the time frames given on other issues raised on > this list and I thank you for those ? I eagerly await those responses. > > Further to that ? there are several outstanding queries that have been > raised that have either not been responded to or no time frames given, > though this possibly my fault since maybe the requests were buried in > other emails and not clearly stated ? so I?m putting these requests in > point form as well. > > a.)Is the board prepared to publish minutes of the board sub-committee > meetings in line with the NCCG recommendations > > b.)Is the board prepared to publish the full audit-co report which was > referenced in various minutes > > c.)Is the board prepared to publish quarterly financial reports to the > community so that all financial analysis does not have to be done > immediately prior to an SGMM/AGMM > > d.)Is the board prepared to commit to providing this community with > reports from any member of the board attending conferences on > AFRINIC?s behalf as to what was done at the meeting and the advantage > of having the board member there ? this is simply so that we know that > members money that is spent on travel expenses is being spent in a > justifiable manner. (As a note ? I am more than happy to provide this > community with a full report from the RIPE trip that I took earlier > this year that details exactly what was done there if so desired) > > e.)Can the board provide this community with an explanation as to the > requirements for financial transparency for organizations that AFRINIC > provides funds for > > f.)In the event that there are no requirements ? will the board be > prepared to implement such requirements ? so that the community can be > assured that money given to organizations is being used for correct > purpose. > > g.)The board committed to a response on potential violations of > section 143 of the companies act ? can we get a time frame as to when > this response will be forthcoming. > > I thank you in advance for your anticipated response. > > Yours Sincerely > > Andrew Alston > > > > _______________________________________________ > board mailing list > board at afrinic.net > https://board-list.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/board -- -------------------------------------------------- Sunday Adekunle Folayan Managing Director General data Engineering Services (SKANNET) 16 Oshin Road, Kongi Bodija, Ibadan - Nigeria Phone: +234 802 291 2202, +234 816 866 7523 Email: sfolayan at skannet.com.ng, sfolayan at gmail.com --------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com Sun Jul 23 05:33:03 2017 From: Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com (Andrew Alston) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 05:33:03 +0000 Subject: [Community-Discuss] [Board-Discuss] Outstanding Requests In-Reply-To: <33a9f88a-7efc-33dc-085f-fed12aa03dfe@gmail.com> References: <24A489FD-5A3A-40CA-9378-CC546787D999@liquidtelecom.com> <33a9f88a-7efc-33dc-085f-fed12aa03dfe@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Mr Folayan, Many thanks for the response, noted and diarized Andrew From: Sunday Folayan Date: Sunday, 23 July 2017 at 02:27 To: AFRINIC Board of Directors' List , Andrew Alston , General Discussions of AFRINIC Subject: Re: [Board-Discuss] Outstanding Requests Dear Mr Alston, Thank you very much for your email and the requests therein. I shall consult with the Board and revert. I will get back to you with appropriate time lines, if applicable, within the next 90 days. Thanks. Sunday. On 22/07/2017 06:11, Andrew Alston wrote: Dear Mr Folayan, Chair of the AfriNIC Board, Firstly, I acknowledge the time frames given on other issues raised on this list and I thank you for those ? I eagerly await those responses. Further to that ? there are several outstanding queries that have been raised that have either not been responded to or no time frames given, though this possibly my fault since maybe the requests were buried in other emails and not clearly stated ? so I?m putting these requests in point form as well. a.) Is the board prepared to publish minutes of the board sub-committee meetings in line with the NCCG recommendations b.) Is the board prepared to publish the full audit-co report which was referenced in various minutes c.) Is the board prepared to publish quarterly financial reports to the community so that all financial analysis does not have to be done immediately prior to an SGMM/AGMM d.) Is the board prepared to commit to providing this community with reports from any member of the board attending conferences on AFRINIC?s behalf as to what was done at the meeting and the advantage of having the board member there ? this is simply so that we know that members money that is spent on travel expenses is being spent in a justifiable manner. (As a note ? I am more than happy to provide this community with a full report from the RIPE trip that I took earlier this year that details exactly what was done there if so desired) e.) Can the board provide this community with an explanation as to the requirements for financial transparency for organizations that AFRINIC provides funds for f.) In the event that there are no requirements ? will the board be prepared to implement such requirements ? so that the community can be assured that money given to organizations is being used for correct purpose. g.) The board committed to a response on potential violations of section 143 of the companies act ? can we get a time frame as to when this response will be forthcoming. I thank you in advance for your anticipated response. Yours Sincerely Andrew Alston _______________________________________________ board mailing list board at afrinic.net https://board-list.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/board -- -------------------------------------------------- Sunday Adekunle Folayan Managing Director General data Engineering Services (SKANNET) 16 Oshin Road, Kongi Bodija, Ibadan - Nigeria Phone: +234 802 291 2202, +234 816 866 7523 Email: sfolayan at skannet.com.ng, sfolayan at gmail.com --------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mathias at houngbo.net Sun Jul 23 22:39:10 2017 From: mathias at houngbo.net (Mathias HOUNGBO) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 23:39:10 +0100 Subject: [Community-Discuss] 9th edition of West Africa Internet Governance Forum (WAIGF) Message-ID: <0c2362b7-f010-2dab-5113-bea6515d933c@houngbo.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: