<html><head><base href="x-msg://3460/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Vika,<div><br></div><div>Anne-Rachel would have "accepted terms & purchases with a jurisdiction" that would be south africa in this case?</div><div><br></div><div>Nii<br><div><div>On Dec 14, 2010, at 8:56 AM, Vika Mpisane wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div lang="EN-ZA" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1"><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I admit I read through the article quickly but I think the issue is not really in which domain you register – instead the issue is a pure legal relating to where jurisdiction lies for EU states where goods are advertised on a website and are directed to potential clients in another EU country. It doesn’t seem the ruling would affect non-EU countries.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Yet the ruling still does raise a good question in terms of the law of contracts: where exactly does the cause of action arise in online transactions? If I’m a business in South Africa and Anne-Rachel in Niger accepts my terms & purchases something from me, and we subsequently have dispute leading to a court case, which court has jurisdiction – South African or Niger? Any contract lawyer on this list?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Vika Mpisane<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">ZADNA<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">+27 11 275 0082<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding-top: 0cm; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 4pt; "><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; "><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:africann-bounces@afrinic.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">africann-bounces@afrinic.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:africann-bounces@afrinic.net]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Rafik Dammak<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>13 December 2010 05:51 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:africann@afrinic.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">africann@afrinic.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [AfrICANN-discuss] A .com domain name increases a company's exposure to foreign lawsuits, rules ECJ<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">hello,<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">sorry Ntahigiye but I don't really agree with you, do we know why our citizens buy domains under .com instead of ccTLDs ? maybe it sometimes more easy and without so much burden.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">Regards<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">Rafik<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 12pt; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">2010/12/13 Ntahigiye <<a href="mailto:antahigiye@tznic.or.tz" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">antahigiye@tznic.or.tz</a>><o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Inne,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">A good lesson to our citizens preferring .coms instead of .ccTLDs.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Ntahigiye Abibu (.tz registry)</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; "><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:africann-bounces@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">africann-bounces@afrinic.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:<a href="mailto:africann-bounces@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">africann-bounces@afrinic.net</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Anne-Rachel Inné<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, December 12, 2010 1:27 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:africann@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">africann@afrinic.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[AfrICANN-discuss] A .com domain name increases a company's exposure to foreign lawsuits, rules ECJ</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.out-law.com/page-11658" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.out-law.com/page-11658</a><br clear="all"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div><h1 style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 24pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-weight: bold; "><span lang="EN-US">A .com domain name increases a company's exposure to foreign lawsuits, rules ECJ<o:p></o:p></span></h1></div><div><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">OUT-LAW News, 10/12/2010<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">Companies using a .com or .eu domain name, or displaying international codes for phone numbers, are more likely to be 'directing' their activities at foreign consumers, affecting where they can sue or be sued, the Court of Justice of the EU has ruled.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">Consumers can demand that contract disputes are heard in the courts of their own country if a company in another EU Member State has directed its business at consumers in that state or all EU Member States.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">The ECJ said, though, that merely operating a website which foreigners can access is not enough to qualify as a company directing its activities to other countries.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">"It does not follow ... that the words ‘directs such activities to’ must be interpreted as relating to a website’s merely being accessible in Member States other than that in which the trader concerned is established," said the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/gettext.pl?lang=en&num=79898792C19090144&doc=T&ouvert=T&seance=ARRET&where=%28%29" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">ruling</a>. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">The ECJ ruled on two cases together which both concerned the use of the internet to book or reserve services abroad.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">In one case, Austrian resident Peter Pammer sought a refund from German shipping company Reederei Karl Schlüter for a voyage that he booked but did not take. He argued that the ship did not match the website's description. The shipping company said his action should be heard in Germany, not Austria.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">In the other case, German resident Oliver Heller booked rooms in Hotel Alpenhof in Austria but left without paying his bill due to complaints about the accommodation. The hotel tried to sue him in an Austrian court and Heller argued that any action should be in Germany.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">An EU Regulation of 2001 on jurisdiction, known as the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32001R0044:EN:NOT" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">Brussels I Regulation</a>, says that, generally, a consumer can sue a foreign business either in his own Member State or in the business's, while a business must sue a consumer in the consumer's Member State. This consumer protection will apply in most cases, but only when a trader 'directs' its activities to the EU Member State the consumer lives in or to several countries including that Member State.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">In the two cases it was claimed that because the consumers used the internet to access the foreign operators' services, those services were directed to the consumers' countries. The ECJ was asked to determine the criteria by which a trader's activity on its website or on an intermediary's site can be said to be directing its activity to a Member State.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">The ECJ said that the 2001 Regulation on jurisdiction had loosened the law in response to changing technology so that it would apply to more businesses.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">"This change, which strengthens consumer protection, was made because of the development of internet communication, which makes it more difficult to determine the place where the steps necessary for the conclusion of the contract are taken and at the same time increases the vulnerability of consumers with regard to traders’ offers," said its ruling.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">Having said that the mere fact of having a website does not count as directing activities to every country from which it is accessible, the ECJ outlined the factors that do point towards activity being directed at foreign countries.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">"The trader must have manifested its intention to establish commercial relations with consumers from one or more other Member States, including that of the consumer’s domicile," said the ruling. "Clear expressions of such an intention on the part of the trader include mention that it is offering its services or its goods in one or more Member States designated by name."<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">"The same is true of the disbursement of expenditure on an internet referencing service to the operator of a search engine in order to facilitate access to the trader’s site by consumers domiciled in various Member States, which likewise demonstrates the existence of such an intention," it said.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">The ECJ listed factors that, "possibly in combination with one another," are capable of demonstrating the existence of an activity 'directed to' a consumer's Member State.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">"The following features ... would, subject to the relevant national court ascertaining that they are present, constitute evidence of an activity ‘directed to’ one or more other Member States," it said. "The international nature of the activity at issue, such as certain tourist activities; mention of telephone numbers with the international code; use of a top-level domain name other than that of the Member State in which the trader is established, for example ‘.de’, or use of neutral top-level domain names such as ‘.com’ or ‘.eu’; the description of itineraries from one or more other Member States to the place where the service is provided; and mention of an international clientele composed of customers domiciled in various Member States, in particular by presentation of accounts written by such customers."<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">"If ... the website permits consumers to use a different language or a different currency, the language and/or currency can be taken into consideration and constitute evidence from which it may be concluded that the trader’s activity is directed to other Member States," it said.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">According to the ruling, then, if a company operates websites at addresses using other country's top level domains, such as .uk when used by a French company, or if it uses non-geographic top level domains such as .com, this indicates a directing of activity at other countries.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">The ruling said, though, that the mere presence of " email address or geographical address, or of its telephone number without an international code " does not prove that the site is directed outside of its country's borders because these details are needed for domestic, as well as international, customers.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">The ruling also warned companies that the nature of sites run by agents or business partners could also determine whether consumers can force legal action to be taken in their home country.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="EN-US">"The fact that the website is the intermediary company’s and not the trader’s site does not preclude the trader from being regarded as directing its activity to other Member States, including that of the consumer’s domicile, since that company was acting for and on behalf of the trader," it said. "It is for the relevant national court to ascertain whether the trader was or should have been aware of the international dimension of the intermediary company’s activity and how the intermediary company and the trader were linked."<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 12pt; "><br>_______________________________________________<br>AfrICANN mailing list<br><a href="mailto:AfrICANN@afrinic.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">AfrICANN@afrinic.net</a><br><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/africann" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/africann</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>AfrICANN mailing list<br><a href="mailto:AfrICANN@afrinic.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">AfrICANN@afrinic.net</a><br><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/africann" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/africann</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>