[AfrICANN-discuss] Let's be proactive
Vika Mpisane
vika at zadna.org.za
Tue Oct 30 14:56:53 SAST 2012
If by regulation you mean :organize", then simply use the word "organize",
Bouba. "Regulate" & "organize" are very much different in meaning.
Without claiming to be an expert of anything, I suppose what governments are
struggling with is the fact that the Internet presents a new regulation
dilemma: can governments regulate the Internet? If so, how? If not, what
should they do? Unfortunately, the Internet has developed & continues to
develop from a multi-stakeholder driven model,. Yes, it might have started
as a US Dept of Defence project, but it has since then grown through
multi-stakeholder participation to levels that not even the US government
can effectively contain.
It's not on African governments that are struggling with the regulation
question. Most governments (if not all) are facing the same dilemma
regardless of where they are located.
Coming to your analogy of road rules (and it's a good analogy), I suppose
one of the profound "road" rules for the Internet is that it is a
multi-stakeholder driven technology that promotes free speech & makes
government censorship very difficult. Some governments appreciate this –
some even participate actively in the ICANN GAC. It seems very difficult to
regulate the Internet "in all its aspects" because the question remains: how
much capacity does one government have to regulate "all aspects of the
Internet"? It's difficult when a government only has a piece (its ccTLD) of
a big pie (the DNS root, which ICANN coordinates), and not the whole pie.
The fact that name servers are provided by ISPs outside my country & those
ISPs are not bound by my country's law presents another dilemma. Hence
regulating the Internet in all its aspects is almost impractical.
As for the West pushing its civil society organizations to push the Western
agenda, I can't comment authoritatively as I don't have much background in
civil society. It may help to guard against such accusations, unless we can
provide evidence to substantiate them. Perhaps we (Africans) then need to
invest in our own civil society to advocate our interests not as against the
West, but as in relation to our own governments. It won't be any use for us
to advocate against the West while our house (our ccTLDs, registrars, etc)
remains years behind that of the West, and our governments are "hiding
behind a thumb" (a Zulu saying to signify hiding behind a lame excuse).
Regards,
Vika
From: bouba <djamaab at yahoo.fr>
Reply-To: bouba <djamaab at yahoo.fr>, <africann at afrinic.net>
Date: Tuesday 30 October 2012 2:00 PM
To: "africann at afrinic.net" <africann at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [AfrICANN-discuss] Let's be proactive
Why as soon as we enter the field of ICT in general and the Internet in
particular, the "experts" want us to re-invent the wheel?
Internet is a tool for human development as any other traditional tool like
as means of classic communication (road, rail, air, maritime, ...), water or
energy, etc..
I take for example the case of the road: There are rules for its proper use,
isn't it?
On the road there is any type of car, how they should move according to
their nature (motorbikes, bicycles, cars, trucks, ...) and even the nature
of what they are carrying?
To drive, you need a driver's license and matching rules to follow. In some
countries it leads to right and other left. If you move from one country to
another you must adapt.
We stop or pass traffic lights or intersections in respects of a
well-defined rules by the legislature or the Government?
In case of disputes between users, procedures settlement of these disputes
are also defined and clearly.
Is it regulation or not?
If so and I think so, for me regulation is more organize than control then,
why Internet will escape to this? because we are in a new era ? If yes, for
that reason it has to be regulated in all of its aspects.
In this forum we welcomed the establishment of Africa CERT, I think this is
one of the regulatory tools of the Internet.
I hope that fear of "Internet Regulation" did not come because some of our
brother are financially supported by some Western countries or some of their
organisations in participating to Internet fora and meetings ?
Western countries often like to put their civil society / Internet activist
forward to show the danger of Internet regulations because it is their
interests ...
We know these organisations are well funded and supported by their
Governments ...
They like to say that “regulation” is control and much more is silence. This
is not how I understand this word but rather organize.
In fact, I think we need to be organized and if we can not do it quickly at
the continental level, then each country can advance. Then we can share
experience and learn from each other.
For me Internet regulation is vital. Then we can see how to proceed ...
Peace...
----
Eng. Djamaa BOUBA
Director of Normalisation and Cooperation
National Agency for ICTs
Yaoundé-Cameroun
Email (Pro) : bouba at antic.cm
GSM : +237 77 32 46 17
De : Gideon <gideonrop at gmail.com>
À : africann at afrinic.net
Envoyé le : Mardi 30 octobre 2012 10h24
Objet : [AfrICANN-discuss] Let's be proactive
+++1 Ben Fuller,
I think we have a potential to internally pool resources , fund and sustain
projects, may be that is when some serious incubation could possibly happen.
Perhaps its when resources come from within will such projects be seriously
guarded and managed because the investment seed-funding is in-sourced and
any losses would not be tolerated.
Gideon Rop
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 11:56 AM, <africann-request at afrinic.net> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Let's be proactive (Ben Fuller)
> 2. Re: Let's be proactive (Adamou Nacer)
> 3. Re: Let's be proactive (Nii Narku Quaynor)
> 4. Re: Let's be proactive - domain names regulator (Vika Mpisane)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 10:41:52 +0200
> From: Ben Fuller <abutiben at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [AfrICANN-discuss] Let's be proactive
> To: Pierre Lotis NANKEP <lnankep at yahoo.fr>, africann at afrinic.net
> Message-ID:
> <CAHgkWgtgovkv1+dvtMTc5qpviRDAiwG5mVV3NX+fEwwk0+zE+w at mail.gmail.com
> <mailto:CAHgkWgtgovkv1%2BdvtMTc5qpviRDAiwG5mVV3NX%2BfEwwk0%2BzE%2Bw at mail.gmail
> .com> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Please, get serious.
>
> The African Union comes from the OAU which was started in 1963. That
> was 49 years ago. Just shy of half a century, two and a half
> generations ago. Yet, still begging for donor funds. Enough to make me
> puke. This is the typical incompetent, idiotic agenda of people
> raised without a clue; "Let's blame the donors instead of asking
> ourselves why we do not focus on generating our own funds."
>
> Are you telling me that there is not enough surplus cash in the whole
> continent to fund the AU?
>
> That is one of the major problems in Africa. Instead of looking to
> stand on our own feet, we go whine about our poverty and hope that
> someone gives us money. That is not proactive. If this list wants to
> speak about the African IT agenda (or whatever you want to call it)
> with ICANN then be proactive and stop moaning about how much money you
> need. Focus on what we can contribute.
>
> Ben
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Pierre Lotis NANKEP <lnankep at yahoo.fr> wrote:
>> > That is a useful link : "Foreign funds shock for Dlamini-Zuma".
>> > For me, it confirms the role and the hidden objectives of some donors.
>> >
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > De : Dr Eberhard Lisse <el at lisse.na>
>> > À :
>> > Cc : africann at afrinic.net
>> > Envoyé le : Mardi 30 octobre 2012 8h23
>> > Objet : Re: [AfrICANN-discuss] Let's be proactive
>> >
>> > You see,
>> >
>> > the 3 percent not funded by western donors, don't pay so much per diems
>> > and travel is in Economy Class, so we'll get them "Organozed" too :-)-o
>> >
>> >
>> http://www.bdlive.co.za/world/africa/2012/10/29/foreign-funds-shock-for-dlami
>> ni-zuma
>> >
>> > on 2012-10-30 08:00 Nii Narku Quaynor said the following:
>>> >> Sounds like impossible...
>>> >>
>>> >> On Oct 30, 2012, at 5:19, "Dr Eberhard W Lisse" <el at lisse.na
>>> >> <mailto:el at lisse.na>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>>> >>> 97% of the programs in Africa perhaps?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> The ones that are donor funded...
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Jeepers, this is fun...
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> el
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > AfrICANN mailing list
>> > AfrICANN at afrinic.net
>> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/africann
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > AfrICANN mailing list
>> > AfrICANN at afrinic.net
>> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/africann
>> >
>
>
>
> --
> **********************************************
> Dr. Ben Fuller
> abutiben at gmail.com
> ben at fuller.na http://www.fuller.na <http://www.fuller.na/>
> blog: http://www.fuller.na/ skype: drbenfuller
> *****************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 09:45:29 +0100
> From: Adamou Nacer <adamou.nacer at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [AfrICANN-discuss] Let's be proactive
> To: Pierre Lotis NANKEP <lnankep at yahoo.fr>, africann at afrinic.net
> Message-ID: <508F93A9.9010105 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi,
> Le 30/10/2012 08:37, Pierre Lotis NANKEP a écrit :
>> >
>> > *From :* Nii Narku Quaynor <quaynor at ghana.com>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Oct 30, 2012, at 5:30, Pierre Lotis NANKEP <lnankep at yahoo.fr
>> > <mailto:lnankep at yahoo.fr>> wrote:
>> >
>>> >> Nii : "So, exactly what is to be regulated about Internet in a
>>> >> country ?"
>>> >>
>>> >> Quick answer :
>>> >> - Domain Names;
>>> >> - IP Addresses;
>>> >> - Contents(very complex).
>>> >>
>> > What do you want to regulate about domain names and IP addresses?
>> > You have to get specific.
>> >
>> > The answer is trivial! Not?
>> >
> Pierre, personally I don't like this word especially when it comes from
> a government's organization like ANTIC. In general, this means that
> regulation is a set of rules and decisions that are taken by the
> government without taking into account interests and points of view of
> all stakeholders (civil society, academia, private sector, etc). And in
> general, the interest of government doesn't totally coincide with those
> of other stakeholders. An example in Cameroon is the national fiber
> optic backbone's issue.
> In summary, I don't have any problem with regulation as far as the
> process of regulating take into account the widest audience expectations
> about the resource to be regulate.
>
> Once this (regulation) is done in a collaborative and transparent way,
> its results have more chances to be accepted by all parties and that in
> my opinion is what we are looking for. Internet resources are well
> managed once the decisions that rule them are accepted by all parties.
>
> Another danger is in the process to forget that even if we are
> discussing issues of Internet in a national framework, what we decide
> has an impact even out of the national territory. Websites that are
> identified by domain names are visited from other countries too, as an
> example. So the International Internet community is a stakeholder to
> include in the discussion.
>
> This is just an opinion from a non expert ;-)
>
> Regards
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> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 08:46:06 +0000
> From: Nii Narku Quaynor <quaynor at ghana.com>
> Subject: Re: [AfrICANN-discuss] Let's be proactive
> To: Pierre Lotis NANKEP <lnankep at yahoo.fr>
> Cc: "africann at afrinic.net" <africann at afrinic.net>
> Message-ID: <CC267B61-8D41-46D6-846A-05CD07CB4C6C at ghana.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> On Oct 30, 2012, at 7:37, Pierre Lotis NANKEP <lnankep at yahoo.fr> wrote:
>
>> > From : Nii Narku Quaynor <quaynor at ghana.com>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Oct 30, 2012, at 5:30, Pierre Lotis NANKEP <lnankep at yahoo.fr> wrote:
>> >
>>> >> Nii : "So, exactly what is to be regulated about Internet in a country ?"
>>> >>
>>> >> Quick answer :
>>> >> - Domain Names;
>>> >> - IP Addresses;
>>> >> - Contents (very complex).
>>> >>
>> > What do you want to regulate about domain names and IP addresses? You have
>> to get specific.
>> >
>> > The answer is trivial! Not?
>
> May be trivial to you but not to me so why not just inform us
>
>> >
>> > A good first step is noticing regulating contents (very complex) so
>> probably a *bad* idea
>> >
>> > It's your opinion!
>
> Agree its my opinion and your opinion is to regulate content which you realize
> is complex;-)
>
>> >
>>> >> Other extension, depending on the country context :
>>> >> - Frequencies or electromagnetic waves ;
>>> >> - Telephone Numbers.
>>> >>
>> > Not Internet And not under discussion
>> >
>> > Not sure. As the boundary between telecommunications and the Internet is
>> almost invisible.
>>> >>
>> >
> Are you sure? The Internet is two layers above telecommunications. Besides
> there is a place to discuss telecommunications(frequencies,telephone numbers)
> and it's not this list
>> >
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> ------------------------------
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> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 10:49:18 +0200
> From: Vika Mpisane <vika at zadna.org.za>
> Subject: Re: [AfrICANN-discuss] Let's be proactive - domain names
> regulator
> To: <africann at afrinic.net>
> Message-ID: <CCB55DF2.18929%vika at zadna.org.za
> <mailto:CCB55DF2.18929%25vika at zadna.org.za> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
>
> On 2012/10/30 10:32 AM, "Dr Paulos Nyirenda" <paulos at sdnp.org.mw> wrote:
>
>> >On 30 Oct 2012 at 9:33, Vika Mpisane wrote:
>> >
>>> >> +++1 here too.
>> >
>> >Mmmm ... not so fast ...
>
> OkŠgood this discussion has finally forced you to return from your leave
> of silence:-)
>
>> >
>>> >> Regulating domain names & IP addresses is not something I've ever heard
>>> >>of. I've heard
>>> >> of domain name dispute regulation, which of course only regulates how
>>> >>disputes over a
>>> >> domain name in a particular top level domain (TLD) should be handled &
>>> >>resolved.
>> >
>> >Vika, is that not one of the ZADNA duties under the mandates of ZADNA as
>> >a government
>> >body, to regulate registries that run domain names? See section 65 of
>> >Chapter X of the
>> >Electronic Communications and Transactions Act of South Africa,
>> >http://www.zadna.org.za/mandate.html, also partly copied here below.
>> >
>> >So, does the RSA government not regulate domains names through ZADNA as
>> >its Authority?
>
> The regulation I sought to focus on is the usage of domain names. As you
> can see from the ECT Act extract, ZADNA regulates 2nd level domain
> registries (e.g. Org.za, co.za <http://co.za/> ) & registrars. However, we
> don't regulate
> how a domain name holder uses the domain name. Effectively, we regulate
> the ZA domain name registration process that registries & registrars
> should adhere to, but we don't regulate the domain names themselves or how
> they are used.
>
>> >
>> >Here in Malawi we have a review of the legal framework currently taking
>> >place and this is
>> >one of the issues that we have to deal with. For example, the question
>> >arises whether to
>> >create a new body like ZADNA or let such regulatory authority be the
>> >incumbet telecomms
>> >regulator. What do you think?
>
> As you might know, domain name regulatory models tend to split between
> industry self-regulation, partial government regulation and complete
> government regulation. There is no one perfect approach: your
> socioeconomic conditions may best inform which model is suitable. For
> example, here in ZA, due to our political background, there was a view
> that government should be involved. That made sense particularly then, but
> now with the involvement of ZADNA, there is a strong comfort on both
> government's side & the local industry's side that ZADNA (which has an
> independent Board - with no government representation) is the best
> regulation model for ZADNA.
>
> Now MW does not have the same history, and this may mean that may be you
> don't need to change your model. Personally, I think industry
> self-regulation for domain names is probably the best, provided there are
> some established lines of communication between the industry & its
> government.
>
> I'm not sure if the model of having a telecoms operator is the best. In
> most instances, I've had to closely look at, such model makes domain name
> regulation to be one of the less important priorities, probably out of
> telecom regulators' ignorance. As a result, we don't see the telecom
> regulators pushing for the development of ccTLDs.
>
> Regards,
> Vika
>
>
>
>
>
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